11 ms·

Amazon's Sick New Sick Policy

201 points by pinewurst 10y ago

camtarn 10y ago
Good grief, that's horrible. I used to work in Amazon's Edinburgh dev office, and this would never have flown. Apart from the basic humanity of the entire thing, there was very much a culture of "if you're sick, you better stay home because we don't want you to infect anyone else." I really hope this doesn't spread to other locations apart from Germany.
- leggomylibro 10y ago
  >Apart from the basic humanity of the entire thing No 'apart' about it. With Amazon, that concept simply never enters into the conversation.
  - camtarn 10y ago
    Well, that's the thing: the folks running the centre I worked for were very much human, and really quite understanding of regular everyday human things. I think, though, that the Edinburgh culture was very influenced by the centre being started by a guy who wanted to move to Scotland to start a family - it's been explicitly family-friendly from the start, with people being encouraged to keep a good work-life balance rather than working more and more hours. From what I heard that wasn't the case in the rest of Amazon, which always made me feel a bit icky about working from said megacorp - along with all the other dubiously moral stuff. I'm rather a lot happier being out of there, I must say.
    - leggomylibro 10y ago
      It's the organization. You can't change the rules of the organization. Everyone working there is human, and there are a lot of good people. But there's no room for common sense or human decencies in the policies and the legalities, and when you sign on the dotted line, as far as Amazon is concerned you have signed away your soul. A court might disagree, but what's that to the individual who can't afford to keep a prestigious law firm on retainer?
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arcticbull 10y ago
Seems like they should be encouraging people to stay home if they're un-well, that's just basic science isn't it? Feels like this policy will backfire.
- YCode 10y ago
  Maybe that's what they want to see, and it's not impossible that it will turn out to work very well, for Amazon.
markwaldron 10y ago
So they are encouraging people to go to work sick under penalty of losing portions of their bonus? How long until a strong version of the flu puts whole teams out of commision? It's things like this that cause me to always reply "Thanks, but no thanks" to their recruiters whenever they reach out to me.
- itsdrewmiller 10y ago
  If they go to work and get everyone sick their bonuses would be lower, right? Seems like this policy aligns incentives well, in theory. May actually lead to a lot of people at work while sick and providing lower productivity days, in practice.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    No, that's not a good comparison. The comparison should be: team of 20 people with one person sick at home versus team of 20 people at work but all sick. The first one will handily outperform the second one.
  - squeaky-clean 10y ago
    > If they go to work and get everyone sick their bonuses would be lower, right? Only if those people choose to go home. Otherwise you've got a sick team in the office trying to hold onto their bonuses.
  - GCA10 10y ago
    Most serious illnesses are not contagious. So if sick days were largely a function of how many people came down with the flu, we could analyze both options. But when people are out sick for protracted periods because of pregancy-related complications, cardiac issues, battles with cancer, or even injuries related to car crashes, skiing misadventures, etc., there's nothing that aligns group bonuses with compassion or prudent quarantines. If anything, the policy feels as if it skews toward minimizing compassion.
- namelezz 10y ago
  You can accept their invitation and screw up on the onsite interview. Just enjoy visiting whatever city that they fly you to.
hackcasual 10y ago
Looks like it's legal in Germany to tie individual bonuses to sick days taken. Making it a group bonus though is going to really generate pressure to show up.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  Cue a whole department going down with the flu because of this. Dumb. Employees should be encouraged to stay home when ill, not encouraged to go to work. Besides the obvious risks from infection of course there are contributory risks such as someone causing a workplace accident because they are ill and therefore not as concentrated on their work as they should be.
  - cookiecaper 10y ago
    You'd think Amazon would be sensitive to this after an operator error caused their bi-annual S3 outage just over a month ago.
Mz 10y ago
And this is why freelancing and gig work is taking over the world. /Darwin Award
- mataug 10y ago
  That's quite a myopic view. Yes freelancers a probably doing great for themselves but I don't see large corporations adopting a fully freelance dev workforce anytime soon.
  - Mz 10y ago
    I do freelance writing. I have seen articles that indicate that 40% of the US workforce will be freelance, gig work, contractors et al by 2020. It is not a myopic view. It is disgust with this policy combined with real world data. (Anecdotally, I increasingly see people complain they have been job hunting for a long time and can't find a job, plus the UBI discussion is ongoing. Both of these support the idea that the job base for traditional employment is shrinking.)
- voidpointer 10y ago
  Because freelancers get paid sick days?
rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
My girlfriend and I have been severely sick for the past month. Never been so afflicted in our lives. Neither of us got one word of trouble for working remote or taking sick days, because the people we work for care about us as human beings. I have no idea how other people put up with this shit.
- trapperkeeper79 10y ago
  This!!! At the top-level, you know people are not slackers. They want to do their best to contribute. It is true that goals are not always aligned, etc. In the modern world, it seems we have lost our humanity. This story, the United airlines story, and so many examples. I don't think things are worse off than they were in the dark ages of course. But I think we don't have an excuse to be jerks anymore - partly because as a society we have abundance or sorts. Not just pointing fingers at Amazon and United, but collectively, as a society, we need to clean up our act soon or I fear things will get worse and worse for everyone (rich and poor).
- hbosch 10y ago
  I assume that a WFH day does not count as a sick day.
  - VLM 10y ago
    Can a German reader read the original article for us? I would assume the warehouse staff can't work from home, then again maybe they have very generous group sick day quantities. The translations supposedly relate "german IT groups up in arms" so thats probably not the janitorial staff being affected. Where I work if you're sick or a kid is sick, that means work from home via VPN, just like if they called you for an emergency at 2am except its 2pm. If you're not a total loser or slacker your boss won't expect much "work" especially if you're genuinely sick, but even if all you do is idle on instant messaging and reply to emails, they're getting at least some kind of value out of you more so than a sick day and if you accomplish anything, however slow, plus for the bean counters you're not logging a sick day. Actually burning an actual literal sick day frankly means you're going to baseball opening day or a job interview or you're in the terminal stages of your career so to speak (bad relationship with company or boss), or maybe you feel cheated out of vacation days so you pad mondays and fridays with more than 2/5th of sick days etc. Obviously jobs or employers incompatible with VPN work are a different scenario. Sick day in the 90s mean literally sick, like the flu, whereas in the 10s if I have the flu I just work from home very slowly and literal sick day means "go local professional sports team go" or similar unscheduled vacation.
polotics 10y ago
A big win for infectious disease spread in the office! Did AMZN start selling cough syrup?
- cardiffspaceman 10y ago
  Cough syrup appears in search results at amazon.com, but it's hard to quickly gauge who the sellers are or how reputable. Plus I imagine it would be harder if I were sick.
  - user5994461 10y ago
    Next news: AMZ employees fired for stealing a cough syrup during service.
spott 10y ago
I think this can be viewed two ways: A) Use peer pressure to keep people at work even when sick. Incentivize coming to work regardless, because you don't want to "let the team down". B) Incentivize a group to care about each others health. To keep sick people home (so they don't get more people sick), and to avoid putting to much stress on individuals (to prevent them from getting sick in the first place). This seems like the culture of the group is going to drive it one way or the other, and kind of vacate the middle ground.
ryanobjc 10y ago
This reminds me of the soap bar beat-down scene in full metal jacket. In theory it might encourage group-consideration when you're sick though.
wonderwonder 10y ago
This seems to come off as a means of using peer pressure to ensure everyone comes to work every day, regardless of personal or family illness. If little Timmy gets the flu or something worse and you take a week or longer off to look after him because he can't go to school, your team is going to feel like your child has cost them money, which he has. Not a good work way to build an environment based on affection and personal respect. Childless people will hate people with sick kids and if someone has a chronic illness that person is now a drain on the team. Also a good way to ensure sick people heroically come to work and infect everyone else.
- kafkaesq 10y ago
  Also a good way to ensure sick people heroically come to work and infect everyone else. No problem -- we can count on Amazon to just put few ambulances + paramedics outside for when people start collapsing at their stations. Just like they do during major heat waves: http://www.seattletimes.com/business/workers-complain-about-amazon-warehouse-jobs/ http://www.seattletimes.com/business/workers-complain-about-...
  - aanm1988 10y ago
    No, they put in AC. Because it became a PR nightmare once their disgusting policy decisions became known.
    - kafkaesq 10y ago
      No, they put in AC. What do you mean, "No"? Are you saying the reports of Amazon hiring "Cetronia Ambulance Corps to have ambulances and paramedics stationed at its two adjacent warehouses during five days of excessive heat in June and July", as per the article, were just fake news -- and if so, which parts? You're right about what ultimately drove the longer-term decision to put in better AC, though.
      - aanm1988 10y ago
        *now. No, they put in AC now.
koolba 10y ago
Would people getting angered by this policy be angered by a rephrased policy that allows transferring sick days between workers? I'm not familiar with all the details but it sounds quite similar.
- EliRivers 10y ago
  How does that work? I'm sick, but I come in and my colleague stays at home?
  - koolba 10y ago
    Some companies let you give your sick days or personal days to your co-workers. Say if you have 10 days for the entire year but you don't really get sick, the days don't carry over, and you want to help out Alice (friend/coworker). You'd be able to transfer your sick/personal days to her that you would otherwise not be able to use.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Would people getting angered by this policy be angered by a rephrased policy that allows transferring sick days between workers? Germany requires what amounts to unlimited sick time (with variations on pay details), so there is nothing to transfer. This is just punishing people for their teammates getting sick. (So it encourages people coming in sick, but avoiding teammates. But maybe still taking meetings with other teams, since getting members of other teams sick doesn't hurt your bonus, and if it's splitting a limited pool among teams may even help it.)
- DasIch 10y ago
  Sick days don't exist in Germany. If you're sick, you stay home for as long as necessary.
UnfalseDesign 10y ago
It seems like most people here are assuming this'll mean employees will simply go into work when they are sick. This might actually lead to employees taking vacation time instead of sick time. One of my past employers actually did away with ALL sick time. One was only able to take vacation time when one was sick. In reality, it probably will lead to people coming into work when they are sick. However, for serious sickness, like the flu, it'll probably lead to people taking vacation time.
- daenney 10y ago
  > One of my past employers actually did away with ALL sick time. Thankfully, that's not legal in a lot of countries. Vacation time and sick leave are two separate things workers are entitled to. I'm not on vacation when I'm sick, I'm miserable in bed. Not out enjoying a cocktail on a sandy beach. But even better, if I'm sick on vacation I can actually swap out vacation days for sick days and recover my vacation time. I can spend all of my vacation days on actually being on vacation, even if I get food poisoning on vacation.
  - user5994461 10y ago
    It's commonplace to use up your vacations when you are sick instead of being declared as sick, in some environments.
- doktrin 10y ago
  > One of my past employers actually did away with ALL sick time. One was only able to take vacation time when one was sick. This was policy at my former employer. People showed up sick all the damn time and flu season was invariably a disaster. Next time an employer presents me with this brilliant stratagem they can absolutely shove it. If people are sick they should damn well stay home, and incentivizing them to sneeze all over their coworkers is myopic.
  - Dunan 10y ago
    My Japanese company does this. Their "solution": don't get sick. You should be taking vitamins and getting enough nutrition. Miraculously people manage it. Somehow I never get sick on the weekdays and then I can feel my body collapsing on the train on Friday night as I am no longer able to push the sickness back. I'm not sure what I would do if I had children (and I really want to have them). Fighting sickness as a single man is not the same as fighting sickness when you have elementary school kids in the house.
spectistcles 10y ago
Who comes up with this shit. If someone is sick they shouldn't come to work at all, ever. You should encourage people to stay home so they don't get others sick. If they can manage, have them do a little work from home. Moving from a small (10 person) company to a building with 1000 people in it I went from almost never being sick to getting sick 3+ times every winter. Strongly encourage your employees to stay home when they're sick as long as they're getting their jobs done. If they're out frequently or for a long period of time (4+ days) require a doctor's note. That's your sick policy. Done.
- harrumph 10y ago
  >Who comes up with this shit. http://reddit.com/r/consulting http://reddit.com/r/consulting
- deleted 10y ago
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- Dunan 10y ago
  I've never understood the whole "doctor's note" thing. When you're sick, the last thing you want to do is go out in the cold or rain, ride the train with other possibly-sick people, sit in a doctor's waiting room with other definitely-sick people, just to get a note that says something you might be able to prove with an e-mailed photo of the thermometer you just took your temperature with.
MS_Buys_Upvotes 10y ago
The bonus pool is finite. Teams should use their germs to make other teams sick so they get a larger slice of the bonus pool.
- googletazer 10y ago
  Delete this post before Jeff Bezos sees it
- eanzenberg 10y ago
  Time for some small-pox in a blanket gifts.
- blazespin 10y ago
  Ah yes, now you're thinking like an Amazonian.
- winter_blue 10y ago
  The problem here is that employer-employee isn't perfect. Employers are expected to provide a variety of things, like health insurance, sick leave, parental leave, and even vacation, among other things. There are costs to all of these benefits. These costs are amortized and factored into your pay, and effectively reduces your pay. Imagine you make $130k a year--that's about $65/hr in your eyes. But to the employer, factoring in the ancillary costs of benefits, and payroll taxes, you likely cost around $100/hr. What if instead, every person instead had their own little personal one-person LLC, and they worked as independent contractors? Then you would bill for hours worked, and you could get paid the $100/hr you actually cost. The downside to this is that you don't get paid when you are sick, or have a child. But a more accurate way of putting that is that your coworkers do not subsidize/pay for your parental or sick leave. You'd have to get independent insurance to cover such situations. You would also get a solo 401(k) for saving, you'd get your own health insurance, and manage your own benefits in general.[1] It could be a bit empowering. [1] A bit off-topic, but note that solo 401(k)s come with a higher contribution limit got $52,000 verses $18,000 for regular 401(k)s. I've also found that healthcare.gov offers a lot of choice (at least in New York, NY), and I'd rather my company pay me the amount they spend of health insurance, and I get my own care (provided there is an above-the-line tax deduction for health insurance premiums).
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delegate 10y ago
I wonder why Amazon did this.. Is it because people were taking too many sick days in Germany ? If so, then it means the company thinks that people were taking sick days when they shouldn't have, so they're indirectly calling their own employees liars and making them all pay for that. Is it a way to save money ? I didn't know things were so tight at Amazon ... In fact, next time I try to order, I'll remember to remember that the lower product prices are funded by people's sick pay... Either way, very shitty move, Amazon.
- Mz 10y ago
  This is one of those moves that can probably be attributed to stupidity rather than malice.
  - user5994461 10y ago
    Nope. It is definitely attributed to malice for money savings. Some European countries have very stringent laws to cover employees sick leave, potentially for very long time. That can cost sizeable money to companies and that goes against what American companies are used to.
    - Mz 10y ago
      I worked at Aflac for a time. At the time, it was supposedly the largest company in Columbus, GA and had around 5000 employees. I was recently looking for data on them and they appear to have shrunk substantially. While I was there, they cut back on janitorial service to save money. It basically has a similar impact to this policy: Exposing employees to more germs and health risks. I can't prove cause and effect (between this bad policy and their decline), but it looks to me like there is one (though I am not suggesting this is the sole cause of their decline). Even if there is genuine malice, this is just stupid. Making sure people come to work sick and spread the germs does not lead to excellence. Quite the contrary.
- deleted 10y ago
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tombert 10y ago
This is likely to be slightly controversial, but is Amazon running some sort of "Stanford-Prison-Experiment" kind of test on their employees? It seems like about once a month we're seeing some kind of horrific thing being done to their workers that are almost comic-book-supervillain-bad. It's stories like this that make it easy for me to deny the Amazon recruiters when they bother me.
- user5994461 10y ago
  > It's stories like this that make it easy for me to deny the Amazon recruiters when they bother me. Same stuff and it goes both way. There was a candidate who showed a counter offer from Amazon. We had a good laugh. :D
- psyc 10y ago
  This Amazon chap does sound like an idiot.
- doktrin 10y ago
  Amazon horror stories go way back. Anyone remember that hilarious Yegge hangouts post from 2011 [1]? I kind of hoped they'd changed their ways since then, but guess not. Easy pass tbh. Working for one of the "big 4.5" isn't worth some of the shit they pull. [1] https://plus.google.com/+RipRowan/posts/eVeouesvaVX https://plus.google.com/+RipRowan/posts/eVeouesvaVX
- downrightmike 10y ago
  Bezos is building a giant robot and rockets to outer space...
furyofantares 10y ago
This sounded absurd and we haven't heard the justification for it, so I tried to think of possible benefits. It is actually interesting that if I go to work sick and get a couple others sick, it will cost me more money than if I had stayed home to begin with.
hourislate 10y ago
I just wish Bezos would find it in that cold heart he has to share some of the success that so many of his employees are responsible for with them. The richest man in the world and it is still not enough for him and always looking for ways to screw everyone not just his competition.
matt4077 10y ago
I earn my living with a mail-order online business. The costs for picking & packaging are around 1-2%, even though we use a rather expensive option (a home for mentally disabled people). I just don't get why Amazon bothers with trying to shave off what, in total, cannot amount to more than 1/3 of 1% of its costs, considering how much these policies have cost them in bad PR, and, possibly, pangs of conscience. If they managed to reduce packaging material by 50%, they could easily double the salary of everyone in the warehouses, and still have enough over for all-you-can-snort blow at headquarter's x-mas party.
- camtarn 10y ago
  Frugality is part of the company culture. Sometimes people take that too far - to the point where the word "frupid" got coined internally to describe policies that saved pennies at the cost of massive frustration or inconvenience.
taurath 10y ago
If the amazon offices in Germany are anything like the ones in Seattle sounds I'd project they get less productivity out of this than more. They pack people in like sardines in a can.
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Johnny555 10y ago
I briefly worked at a company with combined sick+vacation "PTO" days. Worst idea ever -- people would come to work with a full-on cold, coughing and sneezing all over the place. Just because they didn't want to "waste" vacation days being sick. Now I work at a place with more traditional sick days separate from vacation days, and people stay home when they are sick. And are actively encouraged to stay home, no one wants to see a flu sweep through the entire engineering team.
- deleted 10y ago
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- t0mbstone 10y ago
  If you are going to give combo sick/vacation PTO days, I think the minimum number that is reasonable is at least 4 weeks. That way, people can have 2 weeks of sick time, and 2 weeks of vacation.
  - Dunan 10y ago
    I work for a company like this (a direct rival to Amazon, aping many of its policies) in a country infamous for its workaholism, and given the intense pressure to never get sick (not becoming sick is considered part of one's personal responsibility), what typically ends up happening is one week of genuine vacation, a day or two of scheduled PTO for whatever personal reasons, and then perhaps one or two sudden sick days, in a year. But there is also half-hearted pressure from HR to consume more than about 30% of our total PTO, combined with unstated pressure from management in general to consume less than 50% of it. Everyone ends up worrying about the exact number of socially-acceptable days to take off per year rather than just living their lives. I've gotten used to it but when I hear about European standards, I'm just green with envy.
user5994461 10y ago
1) Go to work. 2) Lie down on a desk for half the day because you're half dead. That's the last time I had to handle a sick leave in France. It didn't shock anyone. Normal practise. Gotta adapt when you can't take sick days.
- tutufan 10y ago
  I worked for an HFT a while back that had a zero-sick-day policy. This is exactly what I did.
rbobby 10y ago
Uhm... collective punishment is a violation of Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.
WalterBright 10y ago
Sick days get abused by both sides. A manager once told me that a member of his team was sick for exactly two weeks every year. Coincidentally, the company offered 2 weeks paid sick time. He said she wasn't fooling anyone, and didn't get a raise as a result. In another company I knew, it was well known that a sunny day after many days of rain resulted in a spike in sick days.
- t0mbstone 10y ago
  This is easily solved by giving people "Paid time off" days which can be used for either vacation or sick days.
  - WalterBright 10y ago
    This is not so easy when you are expected to give notice for vacation so your employer has time to make arrangements to cover your duties.
kafkaesq 10y ago
So Amazon's way of dealing with sick time costs is to... step on the gas, and throw oil on the fire with respect to the #1 reason that people call in sick (at rates above median) in the first place -- namely, a general sense of hopelessness about their working conditions, and a deep and abiding distrust of upper management. At least the move is most likely illegal in Germany, and hence hopefully won't stand too long. On that note - so what are people's latest recommendations for AWS alternatives (for those services which do have reasonable alternatives)? In particular - any significant updates to the following recommendations, in the last 6 months or so? My group will be making some decisions soon, and I always prefer not to go with AWS unless there (absolutely) no comparable alternatives available. [1] "Ask HN: Alternatives to AWS" - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12621716 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12621716
user5994461 10y ago
Meanwhile at Expedia London: 25 days of holidays + 25 days of sick leave by standard. Disclaimer: I am not affiliated to Expedia. I just interview everywhere to find out whom I can extract the most money, holidays and sick days from.
- Thlom 10y ago
  Minimum in Norway is 4 weeks holiday and 9 days sick leave. Most have 5 weeks holiday and many have 24 days sick leave. This is without a doctors notice. With a doctors notice you get 50 weeks sick leave, after that the employer can consider firing you and your pay will be cut.
  - user5994461 10y ago
    Sadly, London is closer to the USA than Norway.
NTDF9 10y ago
The articles on FACE of Amazon look insane. What a read!! https://sites.google.com/site/thefaceofamazon/home https://sites.google.com/site/thefaceofamazon/home Is this all really true?
NTDF9 10y ago
The articles on FACE of Amazon look insane. What a read!! https://sites.google.com/site/thefaceofamazon/home https://sites.google.com/site/thefaceofamazon/home Is this all really true?
carsongross 10y ago
Interesting. Typically collective punishment is used against out groups, in order to get out groups to police themselves in their interactions with your in group (vs. in group members, where individual punishment is used.) Apparently Amazon employees are an out group for Amazon corporate.
jrs235 10y ago
This is a "butts in seats" is more important than results move. Expect unproductive busyness to ensue...
alistairbayley 10y ago
You could look at it like this: the goal is to reduce the total number of sick says in the pool, however you do it. A pooled allowance might encourage people more to stay away from work when ill. A given individual may not have much control over whether or not they get sick, but then can influence whether or not they share that illness with their colleagues. The individual allowance has a stronger incentive to return to work vs the pool, because there is no cost to the individual if their colleagues become ill. With a pooled allowance, there is a cost to the individual if they make their colleagues ill.
cylinder 10y ago
How can this possibly be legal under German law?
JauntTrooper 10y ago
US federal government workers can donate unusued sick leave to people who have run out due to long-term illnesses. Many do. That is a more positive way to implement collective sick leave policies.
qbaqbaqba 10y ago
Perhaps someone could look into how they handle their warehouses employees? In UK you also get "points" for sick leaves and such nice things. In Germany they have employed neo-nazis to take care of their foreign workers and so on.
BurningFrog 10y ago
Another angle is that it can encourage teams to have a good working environment where employees aren't staying home because they hate their jobs. Being a place where people want to go when they wake up in the morning, improves attendance and many other things.

201 points by pinewurst 10y ago

Good grief, that's horrible. I used to work in Amazon's Edinburgh dev office, and this would never have flown. Apart from the basic humanity of the entire thing, there was very much a culture of "if you're sick, you better stay home because we don't want you to infect anyone else." I really hope this doesn't spread to other locations apart from Germany.

leggomylibro 10y ago
>Apart from the basic humanity of the entire thing No 'apart' about it. With Amazon, that concept simply never enters into the conversation.
- camtarn 10y ago
  Well, that's the thing: the folks running the centre I worked for were very much human, and really quite understanding of regular everyday human things. I think, though, that the Edinburgh culture was very influenced by the centre being started by a guy who wanted to move to Scotland to start a family - it's been explicitly family-friendly from the start, with people being encouraged to keep a good work-life balance rather than working more and more hours. From what I heard that wasn't the case in the rest of Amazon, which always made me feel a bit icky about working from said megacorp - along with all the other dubiously moral stuff. I'm rather a lot happier being out of there, I must say.
  - leggomylibro 10y ago
    It's the organization. You can't change the rules of the organization. Everyone working there is human, and there are a lot of good people. But there's no room for common sense or human decencies in the policies and the legalities, and when you sign on the dotted line, as far as Amazon is concerned you have signed away your soul. A court might disagree, but what's that to the individual who can't afford to keep a prestigious law firm on retainer?

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arcticbull 10y ago

Seems like they should be encouraging people to stay home if they're un-well, that's just basic science isn't it? Feels like this policy will backfire.

YCode 10y ago
Maybe that's what they want to see, and it's not impossible that it will turn out to work very well, for Amazon.

markwaldron 10y ago

So they are encouraging people to go to work sick under penalty of losing portions of their bonus? How long until a strong version of the flu puts whole teams out of commision? It's things like this that cause me to always reply "Thanks, but no thanks" to their recruiters whenever they reach out to me.

itsdrewmiller 10y ago
If they go to work and get everyone sick their bonuses would be lower, right? Seems like this policy aligns incentives well, in theory. May actually lead to a lot of people at work while sick and providing lower productivity days, in practice.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  No, that's not a good comparison. The comparison should be: team of 20 people with one person sick at home versus team of 20 people at work but all sick. The first one will handily outperform the second one.
- squeaky-clean 10y ago
  > If they go to work and get everyone sick their bonuses would be lower, right? Only if those people choose to go home. Otherwise you've got a sick team in the office trying to hold onto their bonuses.
- GCA10 10y ago
  Most serious illnesses are not contagious. So if sick days were largely a function of how many people came down with the flu, we could analyze both options. But when people are out sick for protracted periods because of pregancy-related complications, cardiac issues, battles with cancer, or even injuries related to car crashes, skiing misadventures, etc., there's nothing that aligns group bonuses with compassion or prudent quarantines. If anything, the policy feels as if it skews toward minimizing compassion.
namelezz 10y ago
You can accept their invitation and screw up on the onsite interview. Just enjoy visiting whatever city that they fly you to.

hackcasual 10y ago

Looks like it's legal in Germany to tie individual bonuses to sick days taken. Making it a group bonus though is going to really generate pressure to show up.

jacquesm 10y ago
Cue a whole department going down with the flu because of this. Dumb. Employees should be encouraged to stay home when ill, not encouraged to go to work. Besides the obvious risks from infection of course there are contributory risks such as someone causing a workplace accident because they are ill and therefore not as concentrated on their work as they should be.
- cookiecaper 10y ago
  You'd think Amazon would be sensitive to this after an operator error caused their bi-annual S3 outage just over a month ago.

Mz 10y ago

And this is why freelancing and gig work is taking over the world. /Darwin Award

mataug 10y ago
That's quite a myopic view. Yes freelancers a probably doing great for themselves but I don't see large corporations adopting a fully freelance dev workforce anytime soon.
- Mz 10y ago
  I do freelance writing. I have seen articles that indicate that 40% of the US workforce will be freelance, gig work, contractors et al by 2020. It is not a myopic view. It is disgust with this policy combined with real world data. (Anecdotally, I increasingly see people complain they have been job hunting for a long time and can't find a job, plus the UBI discussion is ongoing. Both of these support the idea that the job base for traditional employment is shrinking.)
voidpointer 10y ago
Because freelancers get paid sick days?

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago

My girlfriend and I have been severely sick for the past month. Never been so afflicted in our lives. Neither of us got one word of trouble for working remote or taking sick days, because the people we work for care about us as human beings. I have no idea how other people put up with this shit.

trapperkeeper79 10y ago
This!!! At the top-level, you know people are not slackers. They want to do their best to contribute. It is true that goals are not always aligned, etc. In the modern world, it seems we have lost our humanity. This story, the United airlines story, and so many examples. I don't think things are worse off than they were in the dark ages of course. But I think we don't have an excuse to be jerks anymore - partly because as a society we have abundance or sorts. Not just pointing fingers at Amazon and United, but collectively, as a society, we need to clean up our act soon or I fear things will get worse and worse for everyone (rich and poor).
hbosch 10y ago
I assume that a WFH day does not count as a sick day.
- VLM 10y ago
  Can a German reader read the original article for us? I would assume the warehouse staff can't work from home, then again maybe they have very generous group sick day quantities. The translations supposedly relate "german IT groups up in arms" so thats probably not the janitorial staff being affected. Where I work if you're sick or a kid is sick, that means work from home via VPN, just like if they called you for an emergency at 2am except its 2pm. If you're not a total loser or slacker your boss won't expect much "work" especially if you're genuinely sick, but even if all you do is idle on instant messaging and reply to emails, they're getting at least some kind of value out of you more so than a sick day and if you accomplish anything, however slow, plus for the bean counters you're not logging a sick day. Actually burning an actual literal sick day frankly means you're going to baseball opening day or a job interview or you're in the terminal stages of your career so to speak (bad relationship with company or boss), or maybe you feel cheated out of vacation days so you pad mondays and fridays with more than 2/5th of sick days etc. Obviously jobs or employers incompatible with VPN work are a different scenario. Sick day in the 90s mean literally sick, like the flu, whereas in the 10s if I have the flu I just work from home very slowly and literal sick day means "go local professional sports team go" or similar unscheduled vacation.

polotics 10y ago

A big win for infectious disease spread in the office! Did AMZN start selling cough syrup?

cardiffspaceman 10y ago
Cough syrup appears in search results at amazon.com, but it's hard to quickly gauge who the sellers are or how reputable. Plus I imagine it would be harder if I were sick.
- user5994461 10y ago
  Next news: AMZ employees fired for stealing a cough syrup during service.

spott 10y ago

I think this can be viewed two ways: A) Use peer pressure to keep people at work even when sick. Incentivize coming to work regardless, because you don't want to "let the team down". B) Incentivize a group to care about each others health. To keep sick people home (so they don't get more people sick), and to avoid putting to much stress on individuals (to prevent them from getting sick in the first place). This seems like the culture of the group is going to drive it one way or the other, and kind of vacate the middle ground.

ryanobjc 10y ago

This reminds me of the soap bar beat-down scene in full metal jacket. In theory it might encourage group-consideration when you're sick though.

wonderwonder 10y ago

This seems to come off as a means of using peer pressure to ensure everyone comes to work every day, regardless of personal or family illness. If little Timmy gets the flu or something worse and you take a week or longer off to look after him because he can't go to school, your team is going to feel like your child has cost them money, which he has. Not a good work way to build an environment based on affection and personal respect. Childless people will hate people with sick kids and if someone has a chronic illness that person is now a drain on the team. Also a good way to ensure sick people heroically come to work and infect everyone else.

kafkaesq 10y ago
Also a good way to ensure sick people heroically come to work and infect everyone else. No problem -- we can count on Amazon to just put few ambulances + paramedics outside for when people start collapsing at their stations. Just like they do during major heat waves: http://www.seattletimes.com/business/workers-complain-about-amazon-warehouse-jobs/ http://www.seattletimes.com/business/workers-complain-about-...
- aanm1988 10y ago
  No, they put in AC. Because it became a PR nightmare once their disgusting policy decisions became known.
  - kafkaesq 10y ago
    No, they put in AC. What do you mean, "No"? Are you saying the reports of Amazon hiring "Cetronia Ambulance Corps to have ambulances and paramedics stationed at its two adjacent warehouses during five days of excessive heat in June and July", as per the article, were just fake news -- and if so, which parts? You're right about what ultimately drove the longer-term decision to put in better AC, though.
    - aanm1988 10y ago
      *now. No, they put in AC now.

koolba 10y ago

Would people getting angered by this policy be angered by a rephrased policy that allows transferring sick days between workers? I'm not familiar with all the details but it sounds quite similar.

EliRivers 10y ago
How does that work? I'm sick, but I come in and my colleague stays at home?
- koolba 10y ago
  Some companies let you give your sick days or personal days to your co-workers. Say if you have 10 days for the entire year but you don't really get sick, the days don't carry over, and you want to help out Alice (friend/coworker). You'd be able to transfer your sick/personal days to her that you would otherwise not be able to use.
dragonwriter 10y ago
> Would people getting angered by this policy be angered by a rephrased policy that allows transferring sick days between workers? Germany requires what amounts to unlimited sick time (with variations on pay details), so there is nothing to transfer. This is just punishing people for their teammates getting sick. (So it encourages people coming in sick, but avoiding teammates. But maybe still taking meetings with other teams, since getting members of other teams sick doesn't hurt your bonus, and if it's splitting a limited pool among teams may even help it.)
DasIch 10y ago
Sick days don't exist in Germany. If you're sick, you stay home for as long as necessary.

UnfalseDesign 10y ago

It seems like most people here are assuming this'll mean employees will simply go into work when they are sick. This might actually lead to employees taking vacation time instead of sick time. One of my past employers actually did away with ALL sick time. One was only able to take vacation time when one was sick. In reality, it probably will lead to people coming into work when they are sick. However, for serious sickness, like the flu, it'll probably lead to people taking vacation time.

daenney 10y ago
> One of my past employers actually did away with ALL sick time. Thankfully, that's not legal in a lot of countries. Vacation time and sick leave are two separate things workers are entitled to. I'm not on vacation when I'm sick, I'm miserable in bed. Not out enjoying a cocktail on a sandy beach. But even better, if I'm sick on vacation I can actually swap out vacation days for sick days and recover my vacation time. I can spend all of my vacation days on actually being on vacation, even if I get food poisoning on vacation.
- user5994461 10y ago
  It's commonplace to use up your vacations when you are sick instead of being declared as sick, in some environments.
doktrin 10y ago
> One of my past employers actually did away with ALL sick time. One was only able to take vacation time when one was sick. This was policy at my former employer. People showed up sick all the damn time and flu season was invariably a disaster. Next time an employer presents me with this brilliant stratagem they can absolutely shove it. If people are sick they should damn well stay home, and incentivizing them to sneeze all over their coworkers is myopic.
- Dunan 10y ago
  My Japanese company does this. Their "solution": don't get sick. You should be taking vitamins and getting enough nutrition. Miraculously people manage it. Somehow I never get sick on the weekdays and then I can feel my body collapsing on the train on Friday night as I am no longer able to push the sickness back. I'm not sure what I would do if I had children (and I really want to have them). Fighting sickness as a single man is not the same as fighting sickness when you have elementary school kids in the house.

spectistcles 10y ago

Who comes up with this shit. If someone is sick they shouldn't come to work at all, ever. You should encourage people to stay home so they don't get others sick. If they can manage, have them do a little work from home. Moving from a small (10 person) company to a building with 1000 people in it I went from almost never being sick to getting sick 3+ times every winter. Strongly encourage your employees to stay home when they're sick as long as they're getting their jobs done. If they're out frequently or for a long period of time (4+ days) require a doctor's note. That's your sick policy. Done.

harrumph 10y ago
>Who comes up with this shit. http://reddit.com/r/consulting http://reddit.com/r/consulting
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Dunan 10y ago
I've never understood the whole "doctor's note" thing. When you're sick, the last thing you want to do is go out in the cold or rain, ride the train with other possibly-sick people, sit in a doctor's waiting room with other definitely-sick people, just to get a note that says something you might be able to prove with an e-mailed photo of the thermometer you just took your temperature with.

MS_Buys_Upvotes 10y ago

The bonus pool is finite. Teams should use their germs to make other teams sick so they get a larger slice of the bonus pool.

googletazer 10y ago
Delete this post before Jeff Bezos sees it
eanzenberg 10y ago
Time for some small-pox in a blanket gifts.
blazespin 10y ago
Ah yes, now you're thinking like an Amazonian.
winter_blue 10y ago
The problem here is that employer-employee isn't perfect. Employers are expected to provide a variety of things, like health insurance, sick leave, parental leave, and even vacation, among other things. There are costs to all of these benefits. These costs are amortized and factored into your pay, and effectively reduces your pay. Imagine you make $130k a year--that's about $65/hr in your eyes. But to the employer, factoring in the ancillary costs of benefits, and payroll taxes, you likely cost around $100/hr. What if instead, every person instead had their own little personal one-person LLC, and they worked as independent contractors? Then you would bill for hours worked, and you could get paid the $100/hr you actually cost. The downside to this is that you don't get paid when you are sick, or have a child. But a more accurate way of putting that is that your coworkers do not subsidize/pay for your parental or sick leave. You'd have to get independent insurance to cover such situations. You would also get a solo 401(k) for saving, you'd get your own health insurance, and manage your own benefits in general.[1] It could be a bit empowering. [1] A bit off-topic, but note that solo 401(k)s come with a higher contribution limit got $52,000 verses $18,000 for regular 401(k)s. I've also found that healthcare.gov offers a lot of choice (at least in New York, NY), and I'd rather my company pay me the amount they spend of health insurance, and I get my own care (provided there is an above-the-line tax deduction for health insurance premiums).

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delegate 10y ago

I wonder why Amazon did this.. Is it because people were taking too many sick days in Germany ? If so, then it means the company thinks that people were taking sick days when they shouldn't have, so they're indirectly calling their own employees liars and making them all pay for that. Is it a way to save money ? I didn't know things were so tight at Amazon ... In fact, next time I try to order, I'll remember to remember that the lower product prices are funded by people's sick pay... Either way, very shitty move, Amazon.

Mz 10y ago
This is one of those moves that can probably be attributed to stupidity rather than malice.
- user5994461 10y ago
  Nope. It is definitely attributed to malice for money savings. Some European countries have very stringent laws to cover employees sick leave, potentially for very long time. That can cost sizeable money to companies and that goes against what American companies are used to.
  - Mz 10y ago
    I worked at Aflac for a time. At the time, it was supposedly the largest company in Columbus, GA and had around 5000 employees. I was recently looking for data on them and they appear to have shrunk substantially. While I was there, they cut back on janitorial service to save money. It basically has a similar impact to this policy: Exposing employees to more germs and health risks. I can't prove cause and effect (between this bad policy and their decline), but it looks to me like there is one (though I am not suggesting this is the sole cause of their decline). Even if there is genuine malice, this is just stupid. Making sure people come to work sick and spread the germs does not lead to excellence. Quite the contrary.
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tombert 10y ago

This is likely to be slightly controversial, but is Amazon running some sort of "Stanford-Prison-Experiment" kind of test on their employees? It seems like about once a month we're seeing some kind of horrific thing being done to their workers that are almost comic-book-supervillain-bad. It's stories like this that make it easy for me to deny the Amazon recruiters when they bother me.

user5994461 10y ago
> It's stories like this that make it easy for me to deny the Amazon recruiters when they bother me. Same stuff and it goes both way. There was a candidate who showed a counter offer from Amazon. We had a good laugh. :D
psyc 10y ago
This Amazon chap does sound like an idiot.
doktrin 10y ago
Amazon horror stories go way back. Anyone remember that hilarious Yegge hangouts post from 2011 [1]? I kind of hoped they'd changed their ways since then, but guess not. Easy pass tbh. Working for one of the "big 4.5" isn't worth some of the shit they pull. [1] https://plus.google.com/+RipRowan/posts/eVeouesvaVX https://plus.google.com/+RipRowan/posts/eVeouesvaVX
downrightmike 10y ago
Bezos is building a giant robot and rockets to outer space...

furyofantares 10y ago

This sounded absurd and we haven't heard the justification for it, so I tried to think of possible benefits. It is actually interesting that if I go to work sick and get a couple others sick, it will cost me more money than if I had stayed home to begin with.

hourislate 10y ago

I just wish Bezos would find it in that cold heart he has to share some of the success that so many of his employees are responsible for with them. The richest man in the world and it is still not enough for him and always looking for ways to screw everyone not just his competition.

matt4077 10y ago

I earn my living with a mail-order online business. The costs for picking & packaging are around 1-2%, even though we use a rather expensive option (a home for mentally disabled people). I just don't get why Amazon bothers with trying to shave off what, in total, cannot amount to more than 1/3 of 1% of its costs, considering how much these policies have cost them in bad PR, and, possibly, pangs of conscience. If they managed to reduce packaging material by 50%, they could easily double the salary of everyone in the warehouses, and still have enough over for all-you-can-snort blow at headquarter's x-mas party.

camtarn 10y ago
Frugality is part of the company culture. Sometimes people take that too far - to the point where the word "frupid" got coined internally to describe policies that saved pennies at the cost of massive frustration or inconvenience.

taurath 10y ago

If the amazon offices in Germany are anything like the ones in Seattle sounds I'd project they get less productivity out of this than more. They pack people in like sardines in a can.

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Johnny555 10y ago

I briefly worked at a company with combined sick+vacation "PTO" days. Worst idea ever -- people would come to work with a full-on cold, coughing and sneezing all over the place. Just because they didn't want to "waste" vacation days being sick. Now I work at a place with more traditional sick days separate from vacation days, and people stay home when they are sick. And are actively encouraged to stay home, no one wants to see a flu sweep through the entire engineering team.

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t0mbstone 10y ago
If you are going to give combo sick/vacation PTO days, I think the minimum number that is reasonable is at least 4 weeks. That way, people can have 2 weeks of sick time, and 2 weeks of vacation.
- Dunan 10y ago
  I work for a company like this (a direct rival to Amazon, aping many of its policies) in a country infamous for its workaholism, and given the intense pressure to never get sick (not becoming sick is considered part of one's personal responsibility), what typically ends up happening is one week of genuine vacation, a day or two of scheduled PTO for whatever personal reasons, and then perhaps one or two sudden sick days, in a year. But there is also half-hearted pressure from HR to consume more than about 30% of our total PTO, combined with unstated pressure from management in general to consume less than 50% of it. Everyone ends up worrying about the exact number of socially-acceptable days to take off per year rather than just living their lives. I've gotten used to it but when I hear about European standards, I'm just green with envy.

user5994461 10y ago

1) Go to work. 2) Lie down on a desk for half the day because you're half dead. That's the last time I had to handle a sick leave in France. It didn't shock anyone. Normal practise. Gotta adapt when you can't take sick days.

tutufan 10y ago
I worked for an HFT a while back that had a zero-sick-day policy. This is exactly what I did.

rbobby 10y ago

Uhm... collective punishment is a violation of Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

WalterBright 10y ago

Sick days get abused by both sides. A manager once told me that a member of his team was sick for exactly two weeks every year. Coincidentally, the company offered 2 weeks paid sick time. He said she wasn't fooling anyone, and didn't get a raise as a result. In another company I knew, it was well known that a sunny day after many days of rain resulted in a spike in sick days.

t0mbstone 10y ago
This is easily solved by giving people "Paid time off" days which can be used for either vacation or sick days.
- WalterBright 10y ago
  This is not so easy when you are expected to give notice for vacation so your employer has time to make arrangements to cover your duties.

kafkaesq 10y ago

So Amazon's way of dealing with sick time costs is to... step on the gas, and throw oil on the fire with respect to the #1 reason that people call in sick (at rates above median) in the first place -- namely, a general sense of hopelessness about their working conditions, and a deep and abiding distrust of upper management. At least the move is most likely illegal in Germany, and hence hopefully won't stand too long. On that note - so what are people's latest recommendations for AWS alternatives (for those services which do have reasonable alternatives)? In particular - any significant updates to the following recommendations, in the last 6 months or so? My group will be making some decisions soon, and I always prefer not to go with AWS unless there (absolutely) no comparable alternatives available. [1] "Ask HN: Alternatives to AWS" - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12621716 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12621716

user5994461 10y ago

Meanwhile at Expedia London: 25 days of holidays + 25 days of sick leave by standard. Disclaimer: I am not affiliated to Expedia. I just interview everywhere to find out whom I can extract the most money, holidays and sick days from.

Thlom 10y ago
Minimum in Norway is 4 weeks holiday and 9 days sick leave. Most have 5 weeks holiday and many have 24 days sick leave. This is without a doctors notice. With a doctors notice you get 50 weeks sick leave, after that the employer can consider firing you and your pay will be cut.
- user5994461 10y ago
  Sadly, London is closer to the USA than Norway.

NTDF9 10y ago

The articles on FACE of Amazon look insane. What a read!! https://sites.google.com/site/thefaceofamazon/home https://sites.google.com/site/thefaceofamazon/home Is this all really true?

NTDF9 10y ago

The articles on FACE of Amazon look insane. What a read!! https://sites.google.com/site/thefaceofamazon/home https://sites.google.com/site/thefaceofamazon/home Is this all really true?

carsongross 10y ago

Interesting. Typically collective punishment is used against out groups, in order to get out groups to police themselves in their interactions with your in group (vs. in group members, where individual punishment is used.) Apparently Amazon employees are an out group for Amazon corporate.

jrs235 10y ago

This is a "butts in seats" is more important than results move. Expect unproductive busyness to ensue...

alistairbayley 10y ago

You could look at it like this: the goal is to reduce the total number of sick says in the pool, however you do it. A pooled allowance might encourage people more to stay away from work when ill. A given individual may not have much control over whether or not they get sick, but then can influence whether or not they share that illness with their colleagues. The individual allowance has a stronger incentive to return to work vs the pool, because there is no cost to the individual if their colleagues become ill. With a pooled allowance, there is a cost to the individual if they make their colleagues ill.

cylinder 10y ago

How can this possibly be legal under German law?

JauntTrooper 10y ago

US federal government workers can donate unusued sick leave to people who have run out due to long-term illnesses. Many do. That is a more positive way to implement collective sick leave policies.

qbaqbaqba 10y ago

Perhaps someone could look into how they handle their warehouses employees? In UK you also get "points" for sick leaves and such nice things. In Germany they have employed neo-nazis to take care of their foreign workers and so on.

BurningFrog 10y ago

Another angle is that it can encourage teams to have a good working environment where employees aren't staying home because they hate their jobs. Being a place where people want to go when they wake up in the morning, improves attendance and many other things.