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A while back I was chatting with an engineer who worked on the network code and infrastructure for a popular simulation game. After all the heavy lifting was do

A while back I was chatting with an engineer who worked on the network code and infrastructure for a popular simulation game. After all the heavy lifting was done, he and others were promptly fired and replaced by contractors. The guy poured his heart and soul into the project and was vested way beyond a paycheck, yet he was literally replaced like a cog the minute a spreadsheet called for it. So much for wanting talented and loyal employees. It must be too easy to forget that all these business decisions affect real human beings, not empty automatons.

TheGRS 9y ago
Strange if that's the norm now too, some of the best games of the 90's seemed to all come out of dedicated teams who just loved their craft. In fact most of my favorite games I could probably point to a development team that worked well together and cared about their projects and stuck together after a release. Its too bad, I like Rocket League's simple premise and execution (it basically builds off of some mods I used to play in Unreal Tournament 2004). If they brought some of the dedicated contractors on full time for their next project and fostered a great culture I'm sure it would help much more than the short-term gains they'll get by their current practice.
- org3432 9y ago
  I've worked with many contracting companies in gaming, not always, but it's not uncommon for contractors to produce higher quality work than employees and normally are more productive. I think employees tend to think that culture is what they're there for instead of producing IP, that's very common in gaming and perhaps one of the reasons execs need to bolster productivity with contractors.
  - richforrester 9y ago
    I see where you're coming from but; > The guy poured his heart and soul into the project and was vested way beyond a paycheck ... so it's kinda sad when productivity isn't the reason.
  - gambiting 9y ago
    Really? My experience with contractors(both in and out of gaming industry) is that they do the bare minimum required to keep the contract and still take 5-10x the daily wage of an employee. Employees(in my experience) usually care about the games they make, while contractors couldn't give any less damn about the project they work on, they are happy to switch with a days notice.
    - dawidw 9y ago
      So why do employers pay 5-10x for contractors?
      - reallydontask 9y ago
        I can't speak about gaming but for more general contracting the multiplier is 1.75 - 2.5x of a normal employee's salary There are a lot of reasons why employers hire contractors, some more valid than others. In my limited experience, it's rarely worth it, mostly because the relevant processes are never in place to ensure that loads of knowledge doesn't walk away with the contractor at the end of the contract edit: Should clarify that I'm in the UK.
        dawidw 9y ago
        "There are a lot of reasons why employers hire contractors, some more valid than others." Could you elaborate on that, please? Thanks in advance!
        Jonnax 9y ago
        Off the top of my head I know that contractors don't get benefits such as holidays, pensions and other employee benefits. Their contracts have an expiration so they're easier to get rid of on short notice. Also they are treated as capital expenditure versus operational expenditure. And I believe that you can do some accounting that is beneficial tax wise to a company. This is a UK perspective.
  - kodfodrasz 9y ago
    Games are not simple products. Except for AAA titles (which are often the gaming equivalent of the annual superhero movie) games need something special, some soul to be successfull. Without dedicated team pouring some of their personality into the game this will not happen. This is why I still play many older AAA games, yet only a few current AAA games, though my machine has enough HP for any current title. Yet current indie games often have this extra, and are on my menu. You can run a game factory like this, but this inflates the product line on the long run. Only managers will stay, and ideas will not blossom, only the management will execute the same reciepes over and over, and eventually customers will not come without insane sales campaigns.
    - Jare 9y ago
      I do not understand why AAA would be lumped together in such a soulless bag. Like superhero movies, some are done by the numbers, some are done without inspiration, some without talent, and yet some are brimming with soul, passion and dedication. That outcome is usually defined by their leaders and context; AAA games, blockbuster movies, and large productions in general, by nature don't let most of the individual developers' souls show visibly in the final product, but that soul is very much in there. "Many older AAA games yet only a few current AAA games" I suspect is more due to rose-tinted glasses and survivor bias. There was plenty of crap back then, and plenty of greatness today.
      - douche 9y ago
        Because when people say AAA, often they are talking about the cookie-cutter, churn-it-out yearly titles, like FIFA and Madden and Call of Duty. The other comparison with Hollywood is the unrelenting sequelitis. It's even reached the point now where game developers are planning trilogies from the start, like StarCraft II and Medieval Total War: Warhammer.
        dkersten 9y ago
        When I hear most people say AAA, they tend to mean "big budget" (which usually implies fancy graphics, big musical scores, voice acting, mocap etc -- things that lower budget games can't afford).
  - jlebrech 9y ago
    if you're a contractor being ask to do things out of your remit seems like a loss maker to an employer. but when you're salaried they tend to think they know you and give you things outside of your job spec more readily.
  - Sharlin 9y ago
    > I think employees tend to think that culture is what they're there for instead of producing IP Yeah, how dare they...
- mungoid 9y ago
  Nah, I dont think its strange in this day and age. To me it's infuriating, but it is all about that bottom line, man. Maximize profits, lower overhead, vertical acuity, do more with less, faster, more, grow grow grow! Plus if you contract out work and that company screws up, you can deflect blame to them. That happened at least a couple times where I used to work. Most companies today seem to only care about being the largest in the industry. Because, I'm guessing shareholders or greed or something, I dont know for sure. It's almost impossible to find a company that wants to just stay within their means. Grow to the optimal size you can manage and coast. I assume its because those kind of companies would get run over by their competition if they didnt keep growing, but im not sure. I used to aspire to have a super successful and huge game company. But after seeing all the insider crap that goes into game development, I think I'll be happiest with just doing my own thing and having trusted colleagues that will come in on projects to help out.
- georgeecollins 9y ago
  As a member of one of those dedicated teams that created games that I hope you tried or liked, I can explain that the industry is very different now from a technical and artistic perspective. In those days roles were being invented and were often blurred. Technology was almost always created from scratch. Tools for art and level building were often created from scratch. Even if you wanted to build your own engine, the technology to share code and art is so advanced you would be foolish not to take advantage of it. Sharing is just much easier now. People are more specialized and interchangeable. Outsourcing the work to where it can be done best for the best price makes sense. We would have done it that way in the '90s, if it would have worked. Now it does.
camus2 9y ago
> The guy poured his heart and soul into the project and was vested way beyond a paycheck That's why you don't do that unless you own the business or shares of that business. Stick to what you're were hired for, don't be over invested, don't put on extra hours of work thinking you'll be rewarded somehow. I'm pretty sure this guys is burned out now. There is no such thing as being a "loyal employee" when your boss isn't paid to be loyal to you. That's business not some social club.
- test1235 9y ago
  That's why the videogame industry is the way it is: people love to create and play games. It's pretty well-known that this love of games is exploited by employers.
- mikegerwitz 9y ago
  I allow myself to get attached to projects that my employer allows me to release as free/libre software---which I think is reasonable to do, since it will always be there, with or without me, with or without the company. The medium-sized family company I work for was just purchased by another, multi-billion dollar company. After the post-acquisition stuff calms down, I'll be having that discussion with them. Until then, any work I do on the projects are void of the personal passion and extra time I put into developing and researching the projects, as much as I am able.
grecy 9y ago
I am surprised anyone finds this surprising. In every industry, everywhere, employees are an expense. To maximize profits, expenses must be cut. Maximizing profits is currently the goal of our society, and we seem hell bent on doing everything we can to achieve that goal.
- qw 9y ago
  This is why unions were created in other industries. Unions have their ovn flaws, but it is the most effective way to give employees more influence.
thezilch 9y ago
Is he looking for work where that's not the case? (He can see my profile for where.)
tomjen3 9y ago
The games industry chews up developers, treats them horribly and to top it of, pays lower wages than devs would get elsewhere.
watwut 9y ago
They do not want loyal employees nor care about loyalty. Game industry wants cheap replaceable employees. Since many want to work there because due to emotional ties toward their childhood games or wish to brag about working on famous game, cheap bodies are available. Game industry has ridiculous turnover, for developers it is something like five years and you are likely to be out.
russdpale 9y ago
Wow, that is crazy. The more I hear the stories the more it makes me want to go back into management, its just whether or not I want to sharpen the elbows again.. Honestly, in my experience, dealing with the blowback from other supervisors and managers is much more difficult than any challenge the employee will bring. However, I hate seeing people treated as you describe.
BeetleB 9y ago
>The guy poured his heart and soul into the project and was vested way beyond a paycheck, yet he was literally replaced like a cog the minute a spreadsheet called for it. This is one reason why "follow your passion" is a bad career strategy. It's not unique to this industry. Look at all the folks who get PhDs and waste their 30's doing low paid postdocs ($50K is higher end).
- radarsat1 9y ago
  Am in my 30s doing a postdoc getting paid $50K. Can confirm. ;) That said, I do enjoy doing research. It's frustrating working with researchers sometimes though. :P Sure, everyone push to master without testing, no problem! I'll just spend my afternoon making things compile again..
  - inetknght 9y ago
    Just create a new branch in git, call it 'production', and... literally throw piles of shit at people who push to that branch. Then they'll get the hint. /s
    - radarsat1 9y ago
      Lol.. just venting ;) But thanks, I take your point. And actually good idea regarding the production branch, I might just do that.
      - philipov 9y ago
        I don't know if it's the git way or not, but I learned with subversion, so I treat master as unstable and make a new maintenance branch for each release. So what I'm saying is: more than just one production branch. That way you can test the next release on its own branch without freezing trunk and without affecting the current production branch (suppose you want to roll back to the previous release?)
  - Muuuchem 9y ago
    Just wondering but why are you still in a postdoc position? My previous field was Medicinal Chemistry and had I continued with my Ph.D, I would have gotten it by 26/27. Post docs are usually for 2 years in Med Chem I believe.
kangdolit 9y ago
A professor in college told us in class: "If you want to waste all the knowledge you gain here and get paid terribly, go into the video game industry." I know many developers in gaming and I constantly tell them to leave the industry for anything else. But they rarely do. And over time I see them get more run down and despondent. I actually see them age over a short period time. It's some sort of occupational Stockholm Syndrome. The proper way to work in the game industry is to make your cash in another industry and then start your own game studio.
- mungoid 9y ago
  Totally true. I'm only 34, but the the increasing number of grey hairs I have is mostly attributed to this exact thing. Stockholm Syndrome is pretty close too because I stayed at my former company for longer than I should have, because I loved all my fellow 'grunts' on the floor I worked with. They were all were pretty brilliant and fun people to be around. But I was not a big fan of many people above us though. The actual decision makers that don't really know what they are talking about. They are great talkers, sometimes even motivational, but know nothing about what devs need to be successful and productive. And to a point don't care.
sevenfive_ 9y ago
What game? Name n shame.
mancerayder 9y ago
Now, is this partly an age thing, though? As for myself, as I got older (late 30's) I became far more pragmatic. A mortgage helps. Financial goals help. Then there is life experience: seeing many many rounds of layoffs in multiple companies I worked for, and somehow being spared. I just wonder if the 20something who dream of stock options and fame, of the game developers who dreamt of doing this since they were children, just haven't reached a point where the disappointment has hit. That, or internalized so strongly that they get promoted and catapulted up the chain. Workaholism, or 'passion' as some call it, can get noticed by the brass and now the passionate people are handed whips. Age makes you more rational and common sense makes you see exploitation when faced with it. But boy, IT folks seem to be the LAST to see it. Why is that? It's not like it's the only profession in the world where people can really enjoy what they do.

TheGRS 9y ago

Strange if that's the norm now too, some of the best games of the 90's seemed to all come out of dedicated teams who just loved their craft. In fact most of my favorite games I could probably point to a development team that worked well together and cared about their projects and stuck together after a release. Its too bad, I like Rocket League's simple premise and execution (it basically builds off of some mods I used to play in Unreal Tournament 2004). If they brought some of the dedicated contractors on full time for their next project and fostered a great culture I'm sure it would help much more than the short-term gains they'll get by their current practice.

org3432 9y ago
I've worked with many contracting companies in gaming, not always, but it's not uncommon for contractors to produce higher quality work than employees and normally are more productive. I think employees tend to think that culture is what they're there for instead of producing IP, that's very common in gaming and perhaps one of the reasons execs need to bolster productivity with contractors.
- richforrester 9y ago
  I see where you're coming from but; > The guy poured his heart and soul into the project and was vested way beyond a paycheck ... so it's kinda sad when productivity isn't the reason.
- gambiting 9y ago
  Really? My experience with contractors(both in and out of gaming industry) is that they do the bare minimum required to keep the contract and still take 5-10x the daily wage of an employee. Employees(in my experience) usually care about the games they make, while contractors couldn't give any less damn about the project they work on, they are happy to switch with a days notice.
  - dawidw 9y ago
    So why do employers pay 5-10x for contractors?
    - reallydontask 9y ago
      I can't speak about gaming but for more general contracting the multiplier is 1.75 - 2.5x of a normal employee's salary There are a lot of reasons why employers hire contractors, some more valid than others. In my limited experience, it's rarely worth it, mostly because the relevant processes are never in place to ensure that loads of knowledge doesn't walk away with the contractor at the end of the contract edit: Should clarify that I'm in the UK.
      - dawidw 9y ago
        "There are a lot of reasons why employers hire contractors, some more valid than others." Could you elaborate on that, please? Thanks in advance!
        Jonnax 9y ago
        Off the top of my head I know that contractors don't get benefits such as holidays, pensions and other employee benefits. Their contracts have an expiration so they're easier to get rid of on short notice. Also they are treated as capital expenditure versus operational expenditure. And I believe that you can do some accounting that is beneficial tax wise to a company. This is a UK perspective.
- kodfodrasz 9y ago
  Games are not simple products. Except for AAA titles (which are often the gaming equivalent of the annual superhero movie) games need something special, some soul to be successfull. Without dedicated team pouring some of their personality into the game this will not happen. This is why I still play many older AAA games, yet only a few current AAA games, though my machine has enough HP for any current title. Yet current indie games often have this extra, and are on my menu. You can run a game factory like this, but this inflates the product line on the long run. Only managers will stay, and ideas will not blossom, only the management will execute the same reciepes over and over, and eventually customers will not come without insane sales campaigns.
  - Jare 9y ago
    I do not understand why AAA would be lumped together in such a soulless bag. Like superhero movies, some are done by the numbers, some are done without inspiration, some without talent, and yet some are brimming with soul, passion and dedication. That outcome is usually defined by their leaders and context; AAA games, blockbuster movies, and large productions in general, by nature don't let most of the individual developers' souls show visibly in the final product, but that soul is very much in there. "Many older AAA games yet only a few current AAA games" I suspect is more due to rose-tinted glasses and survivor bias. There was plenty of crap back then, and plenty of greatness today.
    - douche 9y ago
      Because when people say AAA, often they are talking about the cookie-cutter, churn-it-out yearly titles, like FIFA and Madden and Call of Duty. The other comparison with Hollywood is the unrelenting sequelitis. It's even reached the point now where game developers are planning trilogies from the start, like StarCraft II and Medieval Total War: Warhammer.
      - dkersten 9y ago
        When I hear most people say AAA, they tend to mean "big budget" (which usually implies fancy graphics, big musical scores, voice acting, mocap etc -- things that lower budget games can't afford).
- jlebrech 9y ago
  if you're a contractor being ask to do things out of your remit seems like a loss maker to an employer. but when you're salaried they tend to think they know you and give you things outside of your job spec more readily.
- Sharlin 9y ago
  > I think employees tend to think that culture is what they're there for instead of producing IP Yeah, how dare they...
mungoid 9y ago
Nah, I dont think its strange in this day and age. To me it's infuriating, but it is all about that bottom line, man. Maximize profits, lower overhead, vertical acuity, do more with less, faster, more, grow grow grow! Plus if you contract out work and that company screws up, you can deflect blame to them. That happened at least a couple times where I used to work. Most companies today seem to only care about being the largest in the industry. Because, I'm guessing shareholders or greed or something, I dont know for sure. It's almost impossible to find a company that wants to just stay within their means. Grow to the optimal size you can manage and coast. I assume its because those kind of companies would get run over by their competition if they didnt keep growing, but im not sure. I used to aspire to have a super successful and huge game company. But after seeing all the insider crap that goes into game development, I think I'll be happiest with just doing my own thing and having trusted colleagues that will come in on projects to help out.
georgeecollins 9y ago
As a member of one of those dedicated teams that created games that I hope you tried or liked, I can explain that the industry is very different now from a technical and artistic perspective. In those days roles were being invented and were often blurred. Technology was almost always created from scratch. Tools for art and level building were often created from scratch. Even if you wanted to build your own engine, the technology to share code and art is so advanced you would be foolish not to take advantage of it. Sharing is just much easier now. People are more specialized and interchangeable. Outsourcing the work to where it can be done best for the best price makes sense. We would have done it that way in the '90s, if it would have worked. Now it does.

camus2 9y ago

> The guy poured his heart and soul into the project and was vested way beyond a paycheck That's why you don't do that unless you own the business or shares of that business. Stick to what you're were hired for, don't be over invested, don't put on extra hours of work thinking you'll be rewarded somehow. I'm pretty sure this guys is burned out now. There is no such thing as being a "loyal employee" when your boss isn't paid to be loyal to you. That's business not some social club.

test1235 9y ago
That's why the videogame industry is the way it is: people love to create and play games. It's pretty well-known that this love of games is exploited by employers.
mikegerwitz 9y ago
I allow myself to get attached to projects that my employer allows me to release as free/libre software---which I think is reasonable to do, since it will always be there, with or without me, with or without the company. The medium-sized family company I work for was just purchased by another, multi-billion dollar company. After the post-acquisition stuff calms down, I'll be having that discussion with them. Until then, any work I do on the projects are void of the personal passion and extra time I put into developing and researching the projects, as much as I am able.

grecy 9y ago

I am surprised anyone finds this surprising. In every industry, everywhere, employees are an expense. To maximize profits, expenses must be cut. Maximizing profits is currently the goal of our society, and we seem hell bent on doing everything we can to achieve that goal.

qw 9y ago
This is why unions were created in other industries. Unions have their ovn flaws, but it is the most effective way to give employees more influence.

thezilch 9y ago

Is he looking for work where that's not the case? (He can see my profile for where.)

tomjen3 9y ago

The games industry chews up developers, treats them horribly and to top it of, pays lower wages than devs would get elsewhere.

watwut 9y ago

They do not want loyal employees nor care about loyalty. Game industry wants cheap replaceable employees. Since many want to work there because due to emotional ties toward their childhood games or wish to brag about working on famous game, cheap bodies are available. Game industry has ridiculous turnover, for developers it is something like five years and you are likely to be out.

russdpale 9y ago

Wow, that is crazy. The more I hear the stories the more it makes me want to go back into management, its just whether or not I want to sharpen the elbows again.. Honestly, in my experience, dealing with the blowback from other supervisors and managers is much more difficult than any challenge the employee will bring. However, I hate seeing people treated as you describe.

BeetleB 9y ago

>The guy poured his heart and soul into the project and was vested way beyond a paycheck, yet he was literally replaced like a cog the minute a spreadsheet called for it. This is one reason why "follow your passion" is a bad career strategy. It's not unique to this industry. Look at all the folks who get PhDs and waste their 30's doing low paid postdocs ($50K is higher end).

radarsat1 9y ago
Am in my 30s doing a postdoc getting paid $50K. Can confirm. ;) That said, I do enjoy doing research. It's frustrating working with researchers sometimes though. :P Sure, everyone push to master without testing, no problem! I'll just spend my afternoon making things compile again..
- inetknght 9y ago
  Just create a new branch in git, call it 'production', and... literally throw piles of shit at people who push to that branch. Then they'll get the hint. /s
  - radarsat1 9y ago
    Lol.. just venting ;) But thanks, I take your point. And actually good idea regarding the production branch, I might just do that.
    - philipov 9y ago
      I don't know if it's the git way or not, but I learned with subversion, so I treat master as unstable and make a new maintenance branch for each release. So what I'm saying is: more than just one production branch. That way you can test the next release on its own branch without freezing trunk and without affecting the current production branch (suppose you want to roll back to the previous release?)
- Muuuchem 9y ago
  Just wondering but why are you still in a postdoc position? My previous field was Medicinal Chemistry and had I continued with my Ph.D, I would have gotten it by 26/27. Post docs are usually for 2 years in Med Chem I believe.

kangdolit 9y ago

A professor in college told us in class: "If you want to waste all the knowledge you gain here and get paid terribly, go into the video game industry." I know many developers in gaming and I constantly tell them to leave the industry for anything else. But they rarely do. And over time I see them get more run down and despondent. I actually see them age over a short period time. It's some sort of occupational Stockholm Syndrome. The proper way to work in the game industry is to make your cash in another industry and then start your own game studio.

mungoid 9y ago
Totally true. I'm only 34, but the the increasing number of grey hairs I have is mostly attributed to this exact thing. Stockholm Syndrome is pretty close too because I stayed at my former company for longer than I should have, because I loved all my fellow 'grunts' on the floor I worked with. They were all were pretty brilliant and fun people to be around. But I was not a big fan of many people above us though. The actual decision makers that don't really know what they are talking about. They are great talkers, sometimes even motivational, but know nothing about what devs need to be successful and productive. And to a point don't care.

sevenfive_ 9y ago

What game? Name n shame.

mancerayder 9y ago

Now, is this partly an age thing, though? As for myself, as I got older (late 30's) I became far more pragmatic. A mortgage helps. Financial goals help. Then there is life experience: seeing many many rounds of layoffs in multiple companies I worked for, and somehow being spared. I just wonder if the 20something who dream of stock options and fame, of the game developers who dreamt of doing this since they were children, just haven't reached a point where the disappointment has hit. That, or internalized so strongly that they get promoted and catapulted up the chain. Workaholism, or 'passion' as some call it, can get noticed by the brass and now the passionate people are handed whips. Age makes you more rational and common sense makes you see exploitation when faced with it. But boy, IT folks seem to be the LAST to see it. Why is that? It's not like it's the only profession in the world where people can really enjoy what they do.