12 ms·
Microsoft opens up on Windows telemetry, tells us most of what data it collects
- acd 10y agoOne can run Windows virtual machine on a Linux host at near native GPU performance with PCI passthrough and KVM for gaming and then besides Windows registry use Iptables to block Microsoft Atlas telemetry. I use that setup for playing Windows PC games which are not yet available native on Linux. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PCI_passthrough_via_OVMF https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PCI_passthrough_via_OVM...
- benchaney 10y agoDo you have to pay for a windows license to do this?
- acd 10y agoYes you should use a genuine copy of Microsoft Windows for security purposes so that you do not get malware. I use a paid license of Windows home edition.
- infogulch 10y agoCan you use OEM versions of windows for VMs? If so you can get a Windows 10 OEM key from play-asia.com for $20 [1]. [1]: http://www.play-asia.com/microsoft-windows-10-pro-3264-bit-oem/13/709747 http://www.play-asia.com/microsoft-windows-10-pro-3264-bit-o...
- sqeaky 10y agoI think that things like this are cool from a technical perspective. From a business and financial perspective you are still giving money to people who refuse to release linux versions of games. In the long run this supports microsoft, their telemetry and other their BS.
- JCDenton2052 10y agoSounds very interesting. Can I please ask what sort of games you play and what FPS you're getting?
- acd 10y agoI am playing strategy FPS Fallout4 2560x1440 it runs at 60fps ultra setting, car, train simulators. Hardware i7 6700k, Nvidia Geforce 1070p, Samsung 950 Pro M2. Passmark score 4937, 93th Percentile 3D graphics score 12610, 99th Percentile 2D graphics 710, 72th Percentile Memory 2420 82th Percentile, Disk Mark 10435, 99th Percentile Passmark link https://imgur.com/a/mu0ln https://imgur.com/a/mu0ln If you decide to try it do not miss the kvm ignroe msrs=1 setting, otherwise KVM will crash. /etc/modprobe.d/kvm.conf options kvm ignore_msrs=1 /etc/default/grub pass in setting intel_iommu=on and hugepages. GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet intel_iommu=on hugepages=4096"
- JCDenton2052 10y agoThank you kindly, gaming was the final reason why I was hesitant to jump to Linux. It is nice to see high quality workarounds.
- calcifer 10y agoTo be honest, publishing most of what they are collecting makes me trust them less, not more. Why not publish all, what are they hiding?
- chrisper 10y agoBecause then people would stop using their OS. They would also lose their free beta testers.
- Arcsech 10y agoThe first sentence of the article is "Microsoft has published the full range of data that Windows 10 version 1703, the Creators Update, will collect in its default "basic" telemetry setting." They provided all the info they collect in the default mode, the title only says "most" because they didn't give a complete list for what they collect in the opt-in "Full" telemetry mode.
- jasonkostempski 10y agoThey could tell us they're telling us everything and just be lying. Why does it have to be hidden at all? And why not let people turn it all off? Then everyone would stop talking about it.
- ocdtrekkie 10y agoThis is what I don't get. For as many reasons as they have to justify telemetry, it can't be worth the damage to their image of refusing to allow a disable setting. Especially since the vast majority of users will not disable it anyways.
- tunap 10y agoOh, I don't really know, but I gather they are gambling that the data & ad sales will eclipse any potential losses in marketshare. Their hubris, and duopoly position, leads me to presume they are going to profit in the short-term, at least. Hell, everybody's getting rich doing it! http://adage.com/article/datadriven-marketing/24-billion-data-business-telcos-discuss/301058/ http://adage.com/article/datadriven-marketing/24-billion-dat...
- tunap 10y ago"Most" being the operative word. "These improvements are unlikely to appease that minority of users that regard the mandatory telemetry as an unacceptable intrusion..." by "minority", I assume the author means those pesky, conscientous types who prefer not to have every action disseminated for exploitation. Analytics make the world a better place, and they can be abused as spyware... it all comes down to trust. MS's history speaks for itself.
- nathanaldensr 10y agoPrecisely. Let's paint privacy-conscious users (read: virtually all of humanity, given the choice) as the "minority." Let's make it seem like they are just an annoying vocal minority, complaining for the sake of complaining. This is just a basic marginalization tactic. Disgusting.
- shrimp_emoji 10y ago>privacy-conscious users (read: virtually all of humanity, given the choice) If only THAT were true.
- actsasbuffoon 10y agoMost people close the bathroom stall door before they poop. They appreciate privacy. I think a lot of non-technical people just don't understand how this relates to privacy, which is a different problem.
- nathanaldensr 10y agoThanks; this is what I was trying to say. I believe most, if not all, humans appreciate privacy and would value it over a lack of, given a clear and obvious choice.
- sametmax 10y agoThe real problem is they are right. We are a minority. Most people don't give a damn about it. We are talking about a world in which you can lie to presidency, ridicule yourself and the entire country and still people believe in you. So privacy ? It's not even on people's radar.
- DarkKomunalec 10y agoThe actual list of what it gathers: https://technet.microsoft.com/itpro/windows/configure/configure-windows-telemetry-in-your-organization#telemetry-levels https://technet.microsoft.com/itpro/windows/configure/config... Included: "Storage attributes, such as number of drives, type, and size" -- So ID numbers of all USB storage drives you've connected? Better not put sensitive data on a USB and send it to a journalist... "the number of crashes or hangs, and application state change details, such as how much processor time and memory were used, and the total uptime for an app." -- To e.g. determine when you used the TOR browser, since the difference in uptime between two time points is how much it was up during that interval. "App usage data. Includes how an app is used, including how long an app is used, when the app has focus, and when the app is started" -- Oh, never mind, they also explicitly state they gather which apps you have installed and how much and when you use them in the next section. "Accessory device data. Includes a list of accessory devices, such as printers or external storage devices, that are connected to Windows PCs and whether these devices will function after upgrading to a new version of the operating system." -- Print poster and glue it to a wall -> Printer gets identified via tracking dots ( https://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-do-or-do-not-display-tracking-dots https://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-do-or-do-not-d... ) -> Printer is linked back to you, even if you bought it with cash. I hope you didn't print anything your local sheriff would dislike! Edit: This is all in the 'basic' level, which you can't disable.
- 1001101 10y ago"Telemetry gives users a voice" Guess what mine is saying...
- ocdtrekkie 10y agoThey mean this quite literally too, as Microsoft employees direct everyone to use the Windows Feedback app to submit feedback, and the Feedback app refuses to function without Enhanced or Full Telemetry. So, if you don't enable at least enhanced telemetry, Microsoft does not want to hear from you, does not care about your feedback, and no Microsoft employee will respond to your query on the matter. I've tried to engage the Windows Insider folks over a couple different mediums, as far as I can tell they're barred from talking to anyone who even mentions telemetry.
- chrisper 10y ago>All crash dump types, including heap dumps and full dumps. Maybe I should not have used Windows Insider after all which forces you to have it on full...
- doubleplusgood 10y agoI could consider a scenario where heap dumps of a process crashing due to an exploit would be immensely helpful to Microsoft, since everyone is essentially now a honeypot-esque collector. There needs to be an off switch for this, though.
- simion314 10y agoWow, this means they will store in their databases your private data you had in RAM when something or Windows crashed? Am I wrong? because this sounds horrible, you should have an option on sending your memory dumps.
- chrisper 10y agoYes, you are right. I wonder how this affects something like Keepass. If I had it unlocked open while Windows crashed, does Microsoft now have all my passwords?
- sqeaky 10y agoYes it means microsoft has your passwords and you have technical recourse. If you attempt to use legal recourse you will likely fail and your passwords could become publicly viewable evidence. Change your passwords and don't store them on a close sourced system, this is the only mitigation I see you having that is sure to work.
- chrisper 10y agoActually, if you look here [1], it says: >While KeePass is running, sensitive data (like the hash of the master key and entry passwords) is stored encryptedly in process memory. This means that even if you would dump the KeePass process memory to disk, you could not find any sensitive data. Either way, it is bad that Microsoft does not really warn people about this. [1] http://keepass.info/help/base/security.html#secmemprot http://keepass.info/help/base/security.html#secmemprot
- tetraodonpuffer 10y agoWhy couldn't microsoft offer a Windows 10 "developer edition" allowing telemetry to be set to "security"? Make it cost $200 more, so typical users won't buy it, but why not make it available at all?
- cwyers 10y agoIt's called Enterprise.
- FussyZeus 10y agoNot anymore. You can disable most of it but not all of it, and only via Group Policy, which any Windows admin here will know only works maybe 70% of the time at best.
- flyinghamster 10y agoAre mere mortals even allowed to buy the Enterprise edition, quantity 1? Somehow, I doubt it.
- JoelTheSuperior 10y agoAs far as I'm aware it's only available via a volume licensing agreement. Enterprise still doesn't let you disable telemetry though - just lets you set it to basic. If you want to disable it fully you need the LTSB version.
- gruez 10y ago>Enterprise still doesn't let you disable telemetry though - just lets you set it to basic. you can set it to security through gpedit
- hendersoon 10y agoCorrect, Enterprise and Education versions will work on Security, which is essentially disabled.
- doubleplusgood 10y agoIs there a traffic pattern I can block on my home network that will disable telemetry but won't mess with updates?
- sounds 10y agoProbably (until they change the telemetry traffic pattern). I don't know what it is. Why engage in their game and try to whack-a-mole their software, if you have a choice. I admit, for some, there is no alternative. And that's why there's the outrage.
- doubleplusgood 10y agoI actually am keeping several computers in my house on Windows 7. A work laptop came pre-installed with 10 and I haven't yet installed Linux on it. I think I'll just dump its traffic with no network apps open and see which addresses it calls home on.
- microcolonel 10y agoI found this further down the thread, it might be of interest to you. https://github.com/crazy-max/WindowsSpyBlocker https://github.com/crazy-max/WindowsSpyBlocker
- doubleplusgood 10y agoThank you, I'll be researching this further
- microcolonel 10y agoAs for my take, I have a little shell script that translates hosts files into unbound configuration files, with always_nxdomain rules for each superdomain. I then use that unbound instance as my DNS.
- 10y ago
- hedora 10y agoFrom a quick skim: There is still no "stop sending my personal information to Microsoft" switch, but Microsoft has published a list of examples of what data the "telemetry" subsystems collect. There are other Windows 10 subsystems (cortana, start menu, etc) that silently collect data, and they are not covered by the list the article links to.
- RachelF 10y ago> There is still no "stop sending my personal information to Microsoft" switch I wonder if it is possible to write an app that does this?
- coldpie 10y ago> There is still no "stop sending my personal information to Microsoft" switch Sure there is. Don't use Windows.
- hedora 10y ago:-) I think that is necessary but not sufficient at this point, sadly. I don't use outlook, but they announced some feature where it looks up the senders of your emails on linked in. So, if anyone you know uses outlook, then linkedin knows you know them. I'm not sure if it looks at email bodies (yet), or if they rolled it out yet. Either way, Microsoft should soon be able to sell employers a reasonably complete list of employees that are looking for a new job (including employees that are not active on linkedin or that do not even have linkedin accounts). This is one example of many, I'm sure.
- WorldMaker 10y agoCortana collects data that is considered "functional" by the TechNet document, which also links to the Cortana Privacy FAQ [1]. What you consider "Start Menu" I would presume likely refers to a cross-over of Windows Store and app reliability telemetry, which is all listed. It might not be listed in name/order of the "subsystems" you expect to see, but that does not mean those "subsystems" aren't covered in the list. [1] https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-10-cortana-and-privacy https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-10-cortana-and-p...
- Insanity 10y agoEven if they would provide a full list of evertyhing they are collecting about you, how could you even prove that is really _everything_ as long as window is not OSS? I suppose you'd have to take them on their word, but do they have that much trust from their users?
- MichaelGG 10y agoWell it's possible to inspect the system and determine if they were exceeding that, and then the backlash would be pretty heavy, perhaps even legal? Sure they could secretly leak stuff, but then we have to think a ton of engineers are in on truly spying on users, not just getting telemetry. Doesn't stop them from sending down targeted updates to turn on deep telemetry, say, under a legal order. This is similar to the WhatsApp situation. They claim all this crypto. If they were lying, someone could figure it out and FB would get slammed.
- CaptSpify 10y agoSure, someone could. But it's easy enough to obfuscate it so that it would be extremely difficult to tell for sure. There's a reason why making things verifiably FOSS is such a big deal. "Someone would surely catch them and embarrass them" isn't a great reason to trust them.
- MichaelGG 10y agoOf course. But is it worth a billion dollars or whatever the, say, EU, might decide to fine them if caught? Plus the added compliance costs of whatever a court decides they need to do? Not to mention press and loss of government contracts, etc. There should be a project to fund some research into this, verifying some popular closed source clients.
- CaptSpify 10y agoIt probably is worth it. Look at VW, "surely someone would catch them" worked out for them for years, and was quite profitable for them.
- monochromatic 10y agoWindows 10 makes me want to move to Linux more than ever. I'm not some FOSS crusader, but I would like an operating system that doesn't spy on me, doesn't put ads in my desktop UI, and doesn't force people into an upgrade to do so.
- dublinben 10y agoIt sounds to me like you want to take control of your computer, which basically makes you a FOSS crusader. Only Free Software puts you in control that way.
- nol13 10y agoDo it, don't look back. (and I'll take this opportunity to thank everyone who works on FOSS software, paid or otherwise)
- monochromatic 10y agoIt's been years since I've futzed around with Linux... it's a little daunting. I need to be able to exchange Word documents with clients, and I worry about formatting errors and the like showing up if I'm creating those documents in LibreOffice. Also, I do like to play the occasional video game. Really, what I want is Windows 7 that isn't locked to last-generation hardware and that isn't coming up on EOL. It wasn't FOSS, but it worked very well for what I needed.
- coldpie 10y agoThe company I work for, CodeWeavers, sells a commercial version of Wine called CrossOver for exactly that use case. We're a little behind the current versions of Office; 2013 doesn't work very well yet, but old versions work excellently and we're working hard on 2013.
- monochromatic 10y agoInteresting, I'll look into that. (I use 2010 anyway, so that's no issue.)
- nathanaldensr 10y agoIt doesn't matter what Microsoft says or how they paint it. It doesn't matter how "transparent" they are. As long as data-gathering (read: snooping) is a part of the operating system, there will be a conflict between that and a user's desire for privacy. The only acceptable option for privacy-conscious users is to not use Windows 10 at all, unless and until Microsoft introduces an "Off" setting.
- CaptSpify 10y agoEven if they introduce an "off" setting, there's no good way to verify that they aren't collecting/sending that data anyway.
- Varriount 10y agoWhat about using something like TCPView[1], and Process Explorer[2]? Saying that there's "no good way" is throwing in the towel a bit early. [1] https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/tcpview.aspx https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/tcpview.asp... [2] https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/processexplorer.aspx https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/processexpl...
- mysterydip 10y agoIf it's the OS doing the data gathering, it can just hide that stuff from whatever you would use to monitor it. Look at how rootkits hide for an example.
- sqldba 10y agoNot to mention they bypass their own hosts file to make sure you don't override anything that might stop their data theft.
- antsar 10y agoThose tools rely on Microsoft-developed APIs to monitor traffic though... A monitoring device connected along the network path would be more trustworthy.
- draw_down 10y agoIt's still so crazy to me that they do this in their OS. But I guess a lot of people either don't mind or just don't know.
- duncan_bayne 10y agoThis is the company behind the Halloween Documents: http://www.catb.org/esr/halloween/ http://www.catb.org/esr/halloween/ Why anyone would choose to trust them is beyond me.
- minikites 10y agoYou really think the Microsoft of today is the same as the Microsoft of 20 years ago?
- tonyedgecombe 10y agoIt does seem so.
- sqeaky 10y agoIn some ways they seem worse.
- yabatopia 10y agoI don't know. It can go both ways. You seem to assume that Microsoft cleaned up their act for the better, but for all we know it could be the opposite. You don't automatically become good (or less evil) by ageing.
- minikites 10y agoOf course it's not automatic but pointing to something that happened in the distant past (on the scale of the technology industry) is a terrible argument to justify an opinion about something current.
- duncan_bayne 10y agoI wasn't justifying my opinion. I was merely pointing out that it's odd to assume that Microsoft has changed for the better in the intervening 20 years, despite a) being awful 20 years ago, and b) having failed to demonstrate any change for the better since.
- MS_Buys_Upvotes 10y agoWhat about the other subsystems that silently collect data?
- nigma 10y agoTelemetry at the OS level bothers me to the point that I'm not Windows user anymore and I I'm not planning to become one anytime soon. But to be fair one should point out that Apple is also collecting telemetry data (search system logs for com.apple.telemetry) without any toggles in the system preferences. Search results don't bring much info on what is collected and how it is being used. Does anyone here have insight into Apple telemetry granularity?
- sametmax 10y agoFun thing is, they probably do the same, but: - will do it well enough so that you can't find out - control PR well enough so that it won't leak out - have enough fan boys that if by any miracle people learn about it they'd be cool with it anyway
- hedora 10y agoMy take on this is that Microsoft is stuck in an awful compromise. Google's stuff is free because their business model is surveillance. Apple compromised the user experience to preserve privacy until it could push the machine learning algorithms to user devices. Siri lagged (lags?) Google, but it can now find all my locally stored cat pictures, even though Apple doesn't have a copy of them. There are toggles in iOS to prevent Apple from gathering personal info. Microsoft is trying to double dip: Windows wants to be a premium product like Apple, and the cloud division wants to be Google. The CEO is from the cloud division. To get more user data, many teams in Microsoft backported data collection to existing Windows devices without an opt-in (or even opt-out) at the same time they made telemetry mandatory, effectively compromising millions of devices. This completely destroyed any trust privacy-minded users had in them. Now the telmetry team (which is probably actually acting in good faith, and just trying to make stuff better) is the lightning rod for all the other inappropriate data collection being done in Redmond. This is why there is such a disconnect between Apple's response to privacy issues (usually: "oops, crap. We'll fix it in the next release") and Microsoft's responses, like this article, where the spokesperson doesn't have the knowledge or authority to provide honest answers.
- 10y ago
- 5ome_guy 10y agoI've switched my desktop computer to linux (Mint) with Wine. It's great. Very easy, stable and feature rich. Easier to deal with and customize. There are still some issues with software compatibility or security but it's on par with Windows enough that I haven't really noticed. The only problem I have is games. I hibernate and boot back into Windows 7 for GTA5!
- TremendousJudge 10y agolinux is useless for sound production as well
- muraiki 10y agoI ranted in another article regarding Microsoft's Explorer Advertising about my frustration with MS conflicting with my desire to support the good work some of their teams are doing, such as C#, Visual Studio Code, and Typescript. After reading through the comments here about everything this covers and which cannot be disabled, I'm putting my money where my mouth is and I'm stopping all further use of C#, F#, Visual Studio, Typescript, Azure, etc. I know that my individual loss means nothing to MS, but it's clear that MS is dying to attract developers to their platforms; as such, we who are outraged at MS's privacy violations need to act together to reject MS technologies, as that is one of the few things that they will listen to. Disclaimer: These concerns of course extend to other companies actions, but in the context of this article MS is the most relevant company.
- ksk 10y agoAlthough I've managed to neuter this crap, we really need a table which details all the data MS, Google, Apple, various Linux apps collect under the guise of 'usage data'. I'm willing to grant that most of this is not nefarious, but there should definitely be an opt-out. As the owner of the machine, I do not want my CPU cycles going towards this, or JS scripts that track me, etc.
- dilap 10y agoI don't think Apple collects anything, unless you say explicitly say "Yes, share usage data" during installation. (Maybe I'm being naive.) I feel like what we really need might be a legislation mandating easy opt-out (or even better, requiring opt-in).
- ksk 10y agoAFAIK, I think its enabled by default on iOS, but you can opt-out. https://support.apple.com/kb/PH25654 https://support.apple.com/kb/PH25654 On OSX this document seems to say no data is sent without explicit instruction, but then it says "data can be sent automatically if one of these events occurs".
- concernedmale 10y agoLol, and you youngsters questioned why us old timers STILL don't trust MS after the shenanigans wrt Linux and the GPL.
- winstonlove 10y agoThis change in the settings menu fixes absolutely NOTHING. Suppose that as the article describes, you go ahead and chose the Basic setting for telemetry. What happens next week when some update is published and reverts back your settings to Full telemetry? This is not a theoretical scenario, many past updates have changed the state of the user chosen settings (including telemetry) without the users knowledge. In Computer Science parlance, the settings menu is non-deterministic, meaning you cannot be sure what state it is in now, as compared to the next minute. So for example if you are a lawyer, a doctor, or a stock broker, and are typing a sensitive document for a client, even if you are diligent and checked that telemetry was set to Basic, before and after you typed the document, there still exists the possibility that for a few minutes the setting was changed to Full telemetry due to a background windows update, and minutes later reset again to Basic telemetry due to another update, thus leaking the sensitive document without you even knowing about it. That is what being non-deterministic means and is obviously unacceptable for certain professional software usage scenarios. But the greatest flaw in Windows 10 is not the keylogger. The greatest flaw is the Delivery Optimization module, its new peer-to-peer software delivery system. Basically, with Windows 10, the DLLs that compose your kernel do not come from Microsoft servers directly, but come from Joe down the street, or worse from Boris the hacker from some other country, due to peering. What could possibly go wrong with that? In effect, your attack surface is the entire internet, and all that it would take for someone to compromise your system is some buffer overflow to nullify the hash thar Delivery Optimization uses to validate the peered DLLs. Windows 10 has many great features, and one can see truly the significant positive progress Microsoft is making every month. But Microsoft really needs to purge the telemetry DLL and the delivery optimization DLL from the base windows install. They introduce unacceptable risks in several professional usage scenarios.
- mankash666 10y agoI'm unsure if Macs send as much data. For a fact, Android combined with Google apps know A LOT more. Microsoft tends to get singled out while being the better option, sometimes
- partiallypro 10y agoSometimes? More like all the time. Microsoft still gets unfair criticism when what it is doing is usually less than its competitors (Apple, Google.) It's pretty astounding, HN reads like early 2000s Slashdot sometimes in regards to its complete hatred of Windows. This entire thread is almost verbatim early 2000s Slashdot, "I just switched to Linux and I love it" along with all the OSS evangelists piling on. It's more annoying than insightful.
- Teckla 10y agoMicrosoft still gets unfair criticism when what it is doing is usually less than its competitors (Apple, Google.) This is a subjective opinion (i.e., subject to debate), and also a harmful one. "The other guy is worse" is never a good defense.
- partiallypro 10y agoActually I think the defense of "Microsoft should never adapt to market standards that others have set, because they are Microsoft" is never a good defense.
- nol13 10y agoWhy should our reaction to using software that actively works against us be any different now than it was then? FOSS is important.
- meddlepal 10y agoHonestly there is a lot of hypocrisy here in this thread. How many of us work for startups that either collect data on users usage of their app or rely heavily on the data Google/FB/Twitter etc have mined? Answer: Probably all of us.
- ncr100 10y agoSo ... what is the next part of this argument? Would it be a call for the next phase of technology economy to begin (whatever that would be) and ending the current 'data' economy rise?
- khedoros1 10y ago> Answer: Probably all of us. Speak for yourself.
- hendersoon 10y agoThere's a huge conceptual difference between my data being collected by a service I decided to use and my operating system. I play games, so I have no choice in the OS. Windows is the only choice. I can choose not to use Google or Facebook.
- meddlepal 10y agoI didn't realize Microsoft was forcing you to play games that only run on Windows.
- hendersoon 10y agoAhh, the old "nobody's holding a gun to your head, you didn't have to spend $50 for dinner, you could have had Kraft Mac & Cheese!" argument. Good one.
- ionised 10y agoThat's a shitty argument.
- wdr1 10y agoDoes anyone know how the "advertising ID" works or what's included? E.g., is my web browsing traffic collected by Microsoft?
- icc97 10y ago> "Marisa Rogers, the "privacy officer" of the Windows and Devices Group, told us that the telemetry data is genuinely useful to making Windows better. As an example the company offered us, there was a problem with the Windows Alarm app. " So massive levels of enforced data collection are justified by them fixing the Windows Alarm App.
- hendersoon 10y agoI don't think anyone is seriously arguing that telemetry isn't useful to improve Windows. It very clearly is, very much so. I just want the ability to opt-out.
- youdontknowtho 10y agoThere is nothing that they could do to placate this crowd. even if they stopped collecting telemetry then there would be a vocal contingent of people complaining that it isnt open source. if it was open source and people didnt like the way it handled init a loud contingent would complain.