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Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

• RangerScience 10y ago
  When you look at UBI, you can consider it as the government supplying a "default job" to everyone, in the same sort of way it provides a few other "defaults" - mail (USPS) being a good example. This provides a "minimum competition" against which any company must compete - FedEx is always going to have to be better than the USPS. So notionally - if UBI provides a "default job", companies will have to offer better jobs than that, in order to attract any employees at all. Except this article is pointing out that for a chunk of the population, that effect is already here, supplied by video games. The job (compensation considered) must be less shitty than playing video games all day.
  • recondite 10y ago
    Interesting take, but isn't this also the motivation for companies to automate as much of their workforce as possible? Nobody really wants to take orders at McDonald's for $9/hour and Ronald McOwner doesn't want to pay his workers $15+ when the minimum wage gets raised so he installs automated kiosks to take customer orders. Theoretically, those workers who lost their jobs to the machines are "freed" to pursue more productive ventures, but what we've actually been seeing is the 1% capturing that capital even more (as the poster above noted). I think we're getting to a point where society is going to have to accept that vast swaths of the population are simply not necessary or otherwise employable, in the modern labor force, and hopefully, treating "labor" as an expendable market resource becomes an archaic concept, similar to how we view human slavery. The problem is, the 1% will not change on their own, that has never been the case. The incentives are just not there for them to want to.
• koonsolo 10y ago
  US seems to be centered around spending your whole life working. 10 days of vacation, are you serious? That is only 2 weeks per year. I can't imagine only 2 weeks of holiday with my 3 kids. Maybe you should look more towards Europe for some solutions. More vacation days, flexible work system (4/5th, part-time, etc.), incentives to stay a couple of months at home. Maybe those gamers would be perfectly happy having a part-time jobs and spending the rest of the time gaming. As an example: one of our people managers here (in Belgium) is working 4/5th, and she's doing a great job.
• chrisan 10y ago
  How long do you think before we are in a Ready Player One world where we spend both our free and job time in an alternate reality?
  • paulddraper 10y ago
    Kinda already there. https://xkcd.com/722/ https://xkcd.com/722/
  • wickawic 10y ago
    Another comic, another perspective: http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2010-08-10 http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2010-08-10
  • mintplant 10y ago
    I sort of did this with Second Life when I was in my teens, logging on daily to have fun and hang out and also to script/build/sell things for real money, answer support requests in-world and so on. I don't go on nearly as much as I used to, but I still draw some passive income from my store there.
    • xiaoma 10y ago
      I was always curious about 2nd life but never tried it and I'm not sure why. What year was your store's peak revenue? Where do you think most 2nd lifers went? Is there a viable successor these days, maybe in its early stages?
      • T-A 10y ago
        Don't know about parent's store, but SL's peak year was 2009: http://taterunino.net/statcharts/mo_cmedian400full.jpg http://taterunino.net/statcharts/mo_cmedian400full.jpg My guess is most "2nd lifers" still among the living (people with disabilities and medical conditions seem to be overrepresented among users; death announcements are not uncommon) are still around, they just log on less frequently and spend more time in other online worlds. The obvious successors in the works are Linden Lab's own Sansar, https://www.sansar.com/ https://www.sansar.com/ and SL cofounder Rosedale's High Fidelity: https://highfidelity.com/ https://highfidelity.com/
• imode 10y ago
  slow news day, huh? seems this story is aired about every 2-3 years... EDIT: I'm being downvoted for pointing out that these kinds of articles have been rehashed for years? thanks. continue on, then.
  • 0xCMP 10y ago
    It's been happening more and more for almost the past 8 and it's been getting worse both in the data and anecdotally. I know a lot of qualified people who've graduated from school and still haven't found work. In CS I know some who have struggled to get a job. That said, those who taught themselves had jobs either while in school or lined up for right when they got out, but that's how it is everywhere if they're willing to move/commute.
  • sulam 10y ago
    By "this story" you mean a story like this? Because this one is new. https://twitter.com/ryanavent/status/841411624904863746 https://twitter.com/ryanavent/status/841411624904863746
    • imode 10y ago
      A story like this. "videogames are sucking people in" has been replayed when WoW was popular. and even the article references prior stories.
      • laughfactory 10y ago
        That doesn't mean there's nothing to see here. The fact remains that the official metrics are getting worse, and the changes can be reasonably ascribed to people choosing to opt out and play video games (among other things). In another decade we'll be reading articles like this one, but the share of young males opting out will go from 14% to at least 20%, maybe even 25%, if the trends hold. How long until 50% of young males are opting out? And consider that as that number rises those are men who are not buying stuff (better for the environment, but worse for the economy), getting married, having kids, starting businesses, etc
  • deleted 10y ago
• DougN7 10y ago
  I think this is where UBI leads if it ever happens.
  • nwatson 10y ago
    UBI will prime the pump, entrepreneurs will make alternate reality enticing, value will be found there, new goods and services will sprout. Manufacturing and service working parents and grandparents will complain about the alternative working kids, just like manufacturing workers didn't see value in being a service worker. "They're not making anything real."
  • wallace_f 10y ago
    It's a real possibility, but consider thinking about it this way: Many jobs do not provide (marginal utility > income) to society, and many even produce negative marginal utility. Everything from utility companies to the financial sector to government to even academia has a heck of a lot of perverse incentives and corruption. Over half a century ago John Maynard Keynes--one of the most influential intellectuals to shape the world today--said "it's better for people to toil over their bank account than each other." I would easily wager it's better people toil over their virtual realities than their bank accounts, provided we're able to keep the scarcity problem solved (which I'd bet we'd be able to pull off).
    • pbkhrv 10y ago
      > provided we're able to keep the scarcity problem solved (which I'd bet we'd be able to pull off). I'm curious as to how we can pull that off given that an ever increasing percentage of young smart capable people are opting out of solving real world problems in favor of "toiling over their virtual realities"...
      • psyc 10y ago
        I really dislike the romanticizing of employment as "solving problems." The effect of employment is that somebody's problems get solved, but as the employee, they aren't my problems, and subjectively it feels like mostly solving a lot of meta-problems like how to follow somebody else's process and get along with all kinds of coworkers. If employment felt like object-level problem solving, I'd be employed.
• peterwwillis 10y ago
  My friends were getting addicted to "Evercrack" 15 years ago, playing for days on end, affecting school, work, and social life. Other games had similar effects (usually mmorpgs). Nothing new here
  • sspyder 10y ago
    It is when it spreads from the AV club to the mainstream and the numbers start having tangible impact on jobs numbers / workforce participation rates.
    • kakarot 10y ago
      Good! Those metrics are important to some, but not to others.
      • laughfactory 10y ago
        I'd argue those metrics are important to all of us because they are they suggest that all is not well in our society. It's hard to imagine how declining male participation rates are anything but a bad thing for society. These metrics indicate our society is in for some rough times ahead. When you get millions of people opting out of the economy (to paint it broadly) that is a very bad thing, and that is what these metrics indicate is already happening. Worse, this is just the beginning.
    • laughfactory 10y ago
      Agreed. Plus, many of those EverCrack addicts just moved on to newer and even more addictive games.
  • ssalazar 10y ago
    Scale and the surrounding economic/social circumstances are new.
    • peterwwillis 10y ago
      This article provides absolutely no evidence of that. > What these individuals are not doing is clear enough, says Erik Hurst, an economist at the University of Chicago, who has been studying the phenomenon. They are not leaving home; in 2015 more than 50% lived with a parent or close relative. Neither are they getting married. Yes, that's very clear from many surveys & studies. > What they are doing, Hurst reckons, is playing video games. As the hours young men spent in work dropped in the 2000s, hours spent in leisure activities rose nearly one-for-one. Of the rise in leisure time, 75% was accounted for by video games. Ok, so people are playing more video games. That makes sense, not only as they become more ubiquitous and engaging, they take up new forms of media and are easier to acquire. There's even products marketed to people who never played a video game before. More people are gaming, and existing people are playing more. That's logical enough. They also mention that at the same time, working hours dropped. Sure, in the 2000s we had a massive recession on the heels of a new generation about to join the workforce. Perhaps there were reasons other than gaming that people worked less hours. They don't speculate on that. > It looks as though some small but meaningful share of the young-adult population is delaying employment or cutting back hours in order to spend more time with their video game of choice. Uh.... What? They go ahead and interview a handful of more people who have a story about how they like to game more than they like to work, or how it affected their life. This is anecdotal, cherry-picking, speculative fiction. And this is the only evidence they propose. Why else would a young adult delay employment or cut back hours? 1. There aren't any jobs. 2. People are getting horrible loans they'll never pay back and can now afford a home with much less money (or none?), so their kids can stay at home longer and don't need to get a job yet. 3. There aren't any jobs. 4. There are less hours available to work, because the economy is crashing. 5. There aren't any jobs. With those "opportunities" to stay at home, without a job, of course they're going to play video games. What else are they going to do, dig ditches? Go outside and play? These are millennials we're talking about. The circumstances are new, and the scale of those circumstances is new, but there is no trending ramp in people not working in order to play video games. This isn't Japan.
• deleted 10y ago
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• ninjateam 10y ago
  to occupy their time, to find purpose in life or to contribute to society?
• wallace_f 10y ago
  As a teenager and early-20-something I was video-game obsessed, dropping out of sports and university, and wondering why anyone would want to devote their life to anything as pedestrian as a realistic career. At 30 I've realized how harsh and cruel the world and its people (not everyone, but many) can be, which is the primary motivation for making some big changes in my life away from video games.
  • Endy 10y ago
    As a counterpoint: When I was 20, I had a great job and was happy with my lot in life, certain that everything was going to be okay. I was going to continue working in the public library, get the Assistant job, spin that into my MLS, and take up a Reference Librarian position. I just turned 30 last week. The bottom dropped out of my world when the budget focus shifted to a strongly anti-education agenda when I was 23. For 7 years I have floated between jobs, trying to find something that gave me even a significant fraction of the satisfaction I had at 20. The world is harsh, cruel, and unbeatable. Some days the tabletop, online, and video gaming that I do nightly is the only thing keeping me from jumping in front of a train.
    • isuckatcoding 10y ago
      > only thing keeping me from jumping in front of a train. Hey man don't say that. Despite what you may think, you are valued and important. If you're feeling suicidal, Please call this hotline 1-800-273-8255.
      • Endy 10y ago
        I genuinely appreciate your concern. I still have my lifeline in gaming - both tabletop (which is social) and computer (which is antisocial). For now, I'll leave the hotline to those who have less than me and are closer to the edge. ETA: One of these days I need to find out what it takes to get a paying job with them; it seems like a service we're going to need for a very long time. And since I spend a lot of time sitting around with a computer and a phone next to me, I figure I should go see about getting paid to help people.
• danso 10y ago
  I played plenty of computer and video games when I was young. I don't have as much time now but every once in awhile I'll go on a Rocket League or Overwatch binge and I wonder if modern games really do enrapture us more than 8-bit games ever could. It's not that older games weren't as well-designed as far as games go, but there's only so many times you can beat Super Mario Bros. 3/Super Metroid in a week, or in a lifetime. Whereas competitive multiplayer games with no defined ending has the tendency to make you lose track of time.
  • 09bjb 10y ago
    Games are absolutely more immersive, engrossing, and addictive than they used to be...and designed to be so. It's a higher-grade drug, if you will.
• 65827 10y ago
  I really like this read, something just smells off about blaming young people for "wasting years" on video games. We've got a horribly stacked real life "game" where the boomers and elites have horded everything and fucked future generations, blaming an individual for dropping out and not wanting to really participate in that trainwreck is being dishonest at best.
  • deelowe 10y ago
    This really hits home for me. Seems like every older family member I have just has tons and tons of useless stuff. I dont get it.
    • ehnto 10y ago
      They also have the useful stuff, like property that was reasonably priced at the time of purchase.
      • astrodust 10y ago
        How else do you think grandma stores her priceless porcelain dolls and collectible thimbles? In that giant house that cost a year's salary when she got it, that's where.
      • deelowe 10y ago
        I have more real estate than all of them combined actually, but that's not really what I meant. The stuff they have purchased and still own is baffling. It's all cheap, throw away, walmart crap. Compare this to the things I've saved from my grandparents and great grandparents which are mostly heirloom quality and the difference is striking. The wastefulness is simply depressing.
        • deleted 10y ago
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        • throwawaycanada 10y ago
          I've said for a long time that millenials have more in common with their grandparents than their parents from a values point of view. (I consider a millenial anyone born early 80's to 18-20 now fwiw).
• psyc 10y ago
  To be honest, quite a few video games are much more well designed than the money|status game.
  • projektir 10y ago
    Well, yeah, video games, for the most part, are actually designed with the player's desires in mind...
  • flukus 10y ago
    Tell that to my new house with maxed out fittings in Zelda: BotW.
• 0xCMP 10y ago
  I have found that the "Game of Life" as the author puts it is much more rewarding and meaningful. But then again, I guess I get to do what I like and I'm paid well for it. I'm worried what our culture and life will be like with a large number of people who do nothing but play video games. Especially if a UBI is created and they can continue to play video games without any big effect on their basic income. That said, maybe I'm just being cynical. Maybe all that time playing increasingly high-quality games, reading books (some in the article were), and talking about it all with people online will grow into that group of people having a different and better perspective on things. A group of gaming philosophers.
• firstpost1234 10y ago
  Hard to blame anyone for spending their time doing things where success is quantifiable and quickly displayed. This is the Western countries' version of hikkikomori and there will only be more of it as education and good opportunities become out of reach for more people. Men seem more likely to do this than women because of the societal pressures on them to get a job and run the rat race of dating and climbing a nonexistent corporate ladder. For those people living in major job centers or major job creation industries it seems unfathomable, but there is an entire American generation out there experiencing this, being told that they're not shit if they don't go to college and work a 9 to 5 (which really is more of a 9 to 9). I don't blame them for opting out of such useless propaganda. Not everyone enjoys or is interested in computer programming, and starting your career in your 20s without an inherently marketable skill is terrifying for most people.
  • pbkhrv 10y ago
    > and starting your career in your 20s without an inherently marketable skill is terrifying for most people Not as terrifying as starting your career in your 40s without an inherently marketable skill because 20s and 30s were spent playing video games...
    • flukus 10y ago
      But you get some points for being mature because you're no longer the type to get drunk on weeknights and call in sick to work. This isn't always deserved though.
  • xor1 10y ago
    >Men seem more likely to do this than women because of the societal pressures on them to get a job and run the rat race of dating and climbing a nonexistent corporate ladder. Women also have more options.
    • 09bjb 10y ago
      Like marry into money? If that's your point, it's not going to be valid much longer the way things are going, with women dominating more and more of the middle- and upper-middle-class jobs (glass ceiling problem notwithstanding).
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• throwaway420 10y ago
  * Disappointing that the false meme about some gaming communities being hostile to women because they're women was promoted in this article. Some gaming communities are very hostile to newcomers: but it's not because you're a woman, it's because you're a noob or just suck. Welcome to one of the last remaining meritocracies. * The article makes a correct observation insofar as more men (not just an occasional sad social reject) are using games as an escape, often due to poor economic realities. But it's disappointing that the huge role that male/female relations and sex plays in this trend is ignored. * Google terms like "the sexodus". There are many politically incorrect truths here about what is going on with male/female relations and why more men are seeking an escape and why everybody is unhappy that I think are more at the root of this issue.
  • nether 10y ago
    You can't deny that the morepigs young are opting for are highly degenerate.
  • findateamfirst 10y ago
    You're horribly mistaken, likely because you haven't spent time in communities that aren't hostile to women. It's really hard to know whether your community is hostile to women unless you're a woman. A lot of guys just don't understand how much harassment a typical woman experiences, and when they hear it criticized basically fall back on "well I don't see it" and conclude it must not be happening rather than trying to collect more information.
    • throwaway420 10y ago
      a) Where did I say that women aren't experiencing harassment on some gaming communities? In fact, I explicitly acknowledged it. Your post is kind of pointless virtue signaling or something. b) I just pointed out that it's just generally not about your gender. It doesn't matter if you're a man or woman: every newcomer gets harassed in really rough ways using the most biting insults available. A fat guy will get the obvious insults. An ugly guy will get obvious insults. A young kid who has a high pitched voice because he hasn't hit puberty yet will get obvious insults. A gay man will get obvious insults. So will a black guy or an arab. Or a christian. They'll use any facts they know about you. And guess what, women are treated equally here as well and will get insulted. Not saying it's right, but it's what actually happens to everybody. Gamers are treating women equally, I thought that's what women wanted? c) The only difference is that when a woman gets harassed, most of civil society is sympathetic about it by default and she'll get a horde of white knights expressing sympathy. When a man gets his feelings hurt, he's portrayed as weak for showing emotion. Maybe this is part of the reason that some men are seeking an escape from society? d) It's really hard to know whether your community is hostile to men unless you're a man. A lot of women just don't understand how much harassment a typical man experiences, and when they hear it criticized basically fall back on "well I don't see it" and conclude it must not be happening rather than trying to collect more information. (2 of us can play this game) e) While this is a fascinating discussion that I'd love to have, this point about sex and male/female relationships is 100 times more important than debating about harassment to women gamers for the hundredth time. Things like family and relationships are important motivating factors to men, and when social reforms (some people call that progress, some don't) remove or lower that factor for ~80% of men, civilization will also decline.
• guskel 10y ago
  I haven't played video games in years but I think that's it not video games causing young men to drop out of the work force. Rather, there are other societal causes and young men without prospects for their future are going to fill their unused time with something.
• proudofyou 10y ago
  I'm proud of you, bro.
  • accountface 10y ago
    you really are
  • wallace_f 10y ago
    Thanks, but I think video games can be, at minimum, an equally-valid pursuit in one's life (i.e. something to be proud of). My reasons for a change were external pressures.
  • dang 10y ago
    We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13890954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13890954 and marked it off-topic.
• xor1 10y ago
  >Game designers often deploy a technique called “dynamic difficulty adjustment”. In many games, the software assesses a player’s skill and rebalances various attributes of the game accordingly, to keep the game fun and manageable for those of less ability. Gamers early in their careers, or who are simply struggling to pick up the skills necessary to succeed, are given a helping hand; their world might be more generously strewn with useful power-ups, for instance. As players advance, these helping hands are withdrawn. This sounds really silly, but I honestly consider being thrown into the deep-end when learning how to play Tribes 1 (I started playing in 1999) and DOTA (started 2004) as a child greatly benefited my overall mindset and attitude as I grew older. I think I qualify as a videogame addict. I've probably spent more than 1/3 of my waking hours since I was nine years old gaming. I'm approaching 5000 hours on DOTA2 alone since 2011, though I've played significantly less games in general within the past three years due to finally being employed. Programming feels just as good, and I get paid on top of it. I think my social development was stunted, but I feel like I'm mostly normal now as an adult. I really don't have any regrets, and I plan to give my kids completely unrestricted access to their own computer and the internet as soon as they want it, barring any laws or regulations that prevent me from doing so legally.
  • deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  • captain_crabs 10y ago
    I have pretty much the exact same experience with Dota. I think there's one thing it teaches better than any other game that's exemplified in your post. If you want to get good at Dota, you have to accept responsibility for yourself and the decisions you've made to get you to where you're at. At first in the small setting of the game, but as this gets drilled in over and over through all the hours of play, the habit grows outside the game. It's proven a surprisingly good barometer for me on how I'm doing in my life. When I'm taking care of myself and actually growing elsewhere, even losses are fun. But when I'm running from something, the wins feel empty. I also notice that when I meet a 5k+ mmr player in real life, we're immediate friends, simply because they've accepted responsibility for themselves and have interesting theories on the world as a result.
• projektir 10y ago
  If people do not find this world worthwhile they will make one up.
• ganfortran 10y ago
  That is how you got alt-right. Bad job market and on the other hand portrayed as oppressor and reminded to check your own privilege. Video game is just the surface of the underlying illness. It is cheap(per hour), and accessible source of pleasure.
  • ajross 10y ago
    You're saying... feminists invented sexism?
    • ganfortran 10y ago
      How do u read that? Mind to illustrate me your thought process?
      • pessimizer 10y ago
        I think you got caught trying to humanize and understand people with reprehensible beliefs instead of condemning them, censoring them, and diagnosing them as sociopaths.
        • backpropaganda 10y ago
          A hat trick of Poe's laws application in this thread.
    • projektir 10y ago
      You can't invent something like sexism, but some feminists did contribute to generating extra hatred towards the male gender. The hate on all sides is understandable, but in the end, we all lose.
    • flukus 10y ago
      Invent it where they kind find real sexism? Sure, they do that all the time.
  • flashman 10y ago
• acjohnson55 10y ago
  What is the labor market, if not an interminable, poorly designed MMORPG? Most of us will be alive by the time there's enough economic incentive for all the things humanity needs, with only a token labor force. Many of the world's richest countries are already there, at least when it comes to their own citizens. In the future (i.e. the present, in the software world), to the extent that employers need workers, they going to have to compete for them with high salaries and copious perks. We'll largely conquer poverty, and we'll have a very large lower-middle class working part-time, a smallish upper-middle class of knowledge workers, and tiny class of ultrawealthy capitalists.
  • alphonsegaston 10y ago
    I imagine it's going to be more like a handful of kleptocrat authoritarians, a small class of knowledge workers, and the rest are the shock troops of the above or the people who's heads their cracking for even thinking about rebelling.
    • scarmig 10y ago
      Inner Party, Outer Party, and the proles...
  • ehnto 10y ago
    Your assumptions rest on some very big claims, such as being able to work part time as a low end labour worker. I can't imagine how that would come about in a natural market unless cost of goods dropped even further, and that's not possible through automation alone. Food for example, still needs huge resources and even if it's 100% automated you can't avoid the use of the finite resources required for it. I do appreciate your optimism though, and I really hope we can work out how to arrive at a solution to the myriad of new problems without everything falling apart first. We need to show initiative, as it's going to be a race between preserving quality of life with proactive policy and the very quickly changing labour landscape removing the means to participate in the way communities are currently structured.
    • 10y ago
• alphonsegaston 10y ago
  Every job I've worked in my adult life has involved being judged by standards the boomers doing the judging could never live up to, and then covering for their incompetence with technical skills(because I'm young, so I can just do that stuff). It would be such a sad joke if it weren't for the fact that they squat in every opportunity young people have for their futures (real estate, higher positions, etc) while the young themselves drown in debt and exploitation.
  • Declanomous 10y ago
    It's even better when they don't like the fact that you are doing the job in a way they can't understand. I swear some people think they are paying you to suffer, and if you do something in a way that doesn't require enough suffering they feel ripped off.
    • deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    • hackits 10y ago
      Lets be clear here. What-ever the persons opinion of you should have absolutely no bearing on your professional work, and your relationship between then. I have rude clients, I have smart ass clients. Something is very clear I make it to them when I do the job, I'm doing it for money. If they think $1000 per hour is too much then they're not a client I really want to be working with. I have found you need to make it very clear to clients why you're there, and what the ROI will be for them. After you've done the work, you move onto the next client. They may be a wealthy business man, they may be a boomer. They may be a startup. You're there to get a job done.
      • Endy 10y ago
        That works fine when they're "clients" and you have a business - they naturally accept B2B situations as equals. But when you're the employee, that doesn't work. If you make it clear that you're only in the job for the paycheck, you're going to get fired - you have to make it seem to management like you have some psychopathic desire to be there busting your ass for nine hours on their inane and unfulfilling tasks.
• peckrob 10y ago
  I've watched this happen to my friends. One that I graduated high school with in particular comes to mind. We all played video games back then. Half Life, Goldeneye, Starcraft, Everquest, etc. He was a smart guy, driven, usually made better grades than me (I was lazy in high school). Took a job at an medical supply company after graduating from high school intending to work for a few months before starting college. Well, when it came time to start school, he tried to balance work, school and an ever increasing amount of time in front of the TV or computer playing games ... and failed. Dropped out of school after one semester. Got an apartment with a couple of his coworkers where they would mostly play games when they weren't working. I went over a few times. It was depressing to watch. You really want to say, "Dude, is this really what you want to do?" Spent seven years working that same job stocking shelves and spent the rest of the time drinking and playing whatever the newest game was that month. He'd message me at like 12am asking if I was playing anything and I'd be like, nope, studying. He'd type "LOL" (back in the AIM days). When World of Warcraft came out, he was instantly drawn into the WoW universe. He'd stay up all night playing. Broke up with his girlfriend because he was playing WoW literally every waking moment. Started being late to work, eventually lost his job and lost his apartment (I'm guessing his coworkers asked him to leave when he couldn't pay rent). Moved back in with his parents and still, just ... gaming. All the time. He'd just spend whole days sitting in front of WoW or some other video game. For three years that was all he did. Eventually, his parents had to SHUT OFF THEIR INTERNET and have an intervention to reach him. Obviously I don't know the full story of what happened, but after that he did start to pull it together. Got back into school at 29 and just recently graduated with a business degree. He's managed to "stay clean from games" (his exact words, BTW) for the last seven years. I can't imagine what an immense struggle that must be considering how ubiquitous they are now. All told he lost more than 10 years of his life. The whole time I'm looking on at this and thinking, if he was drinking, we would call this alcoholism. But what do we call it when it's video games?
  • nitemice 10y ago
    It's called gaming addiction, and it's become a more well known thing in the last decade or so. In a lot of ways, it's similar to gambling addiction. [1](http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/3488130.htm http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/3488130.htm) [2](http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/features/video-game-addiction-no-fun#1 http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/features/video-...)
• diogenescynic 10y ago
  Good paying jobs are scarce and video games are relatively cheap for the amount of time you can spend on them. It's escapism. They are confusing correlation with causation.
  • notthemessiah 10y ago
    > Video games are relatively cheap for the amount of time you can spend on them. This has far-reaching consequences. With most goods, the consumer has to keep consuming (and thus creating demand). There's major concerns whether or not we can keep enough people working (and buying things) to keep the economy going, and video games don't contribute as much to aggregate demand. With an economic system that depends on continuous growth, we are trying to simultaneously squeeze more labor out of people while reducing the value of what people get out of it. This contradiction doesn't come with new luxury goods, but is a contradiction within capitalism that has been well described for almost two centuries: the dual nature of labour as capital and labour as a commodity. >They are confusing correlation with causation. Actually, this is one of the biggest questions of the paper cited, so the authors are not oblivious.
    • Terr_ 10y ago
      > video games don't contribute as much to aggregate demand Perhaps, but consistent demand isn't everything. I mean, hard drugs keep people buying, but...
  • marknutter 10y ago
    This is such bullshit. Right now you can walk into a long haul trucking job with zero years experience and be making $70k minimum with a $10-20k signing bonus after a short month long training. And that's one of myriad trades that are available today. The lie that has been sold to America's youth that everyone has a "right" to go to college and is entitled to a job upon graduation will go down as one of the greatest crimes committed against an entire generation.
    • diogenescynic 10y ago
• zobzu 10y ago
  you mean, the cruel world tell them to be ashamed of their gender, their country, their life - then they have to pay for their students debts and think about how they wont ever afford a house and they prefer going to an alternate reality? no way! I personally love escaping reality by playing games. There's other ways, but it's a pretty fine one. Better than depression.
• pbkhrv 10y ago
  On a cynical note, "young men immersed in alternate reality" is also an opportunity: - It's a rapidly growing market - those people will eventually need financial support systems beyond family - new forms of annuities? - more demand for "gig economy" type jobs - demand for jobs that can be done inside virtual realities that are better suited for humans instead of robots - this one is a stretch - more demand for on-demand "life support" services - food, cleaning, medical, sex This is veering into dark-ish dystopian territory, so imma stop now.
  • astrodust 10y ago
    This is what happened in Japan in the mid 1990s when it firmly entered the post-industrial age. There's an entire sector of society that's given up on getting ahead because the old model of employment is broken, and there's no point in fighting to get ahead since there's no winning. Console games and ramen noodles until you die.
    • flukus 10y ago
      It seems like there's a limit to growth and Japan were just the first ones to hit the limit. Everyone else has just cheated the limit with "artificial growth" via immigration.
      • astrodust 10y ago
        You might be right about that. Japan has been pretty hostile to immigration, so it's probable that's a significant factor here.
  • daodedickinson 10y ago
    It's veering into seeing the reality outside the small bubble of people that are empowered by technology.
• intrasight 10y ago
  It is all about balance. I know several young adults who are smart, educated, and successful (for their age) and yet spend what for me is way too much time playing video games. But to them it is not just a game - it's another serious pursuit. And they make several to ten thousand dollars a year gaming.
  • chii 10y ago
    is that streaming or YouTube? I can't see how one can make money unless they are a pro gamer
• saryant 10y ago
  I'm a 26 year old male and never got any deeper into video games than some intense rounds of Mario Kart in college. I've played others but generally lose interest and move on quickly. Doubt I've played a video game in a few years at this point. What follows is likely senseless babbling and bullshit armchair pop psychology. The prevalence of video games among young men frightens me, in two ways: First, in the development of narcissism in teens. In so many video games, you play the hero—the one man left who can save the world! The fate of everything rests on you and you alone for those hours while you're plugged in. Pumping music, suspense, surprise and eventually reward. How can this not fuel the development of narcissism amongst growing boys? You play as the only person who can succeed and you're rewarded for that success, but without real-world troubles like concern for others' feelings. No, I'm not a psychiatrist, but can't we imagine that at least some boys become addicted to that sensation? My hypothesis is that video games in boys and teens can fuel narcissistic disorders. Not in all, but in some. That leads us to the second reason I'm frightened of the prevalence of video games. I recognize that as a man in a burgeoning industry (software) and a dynamic city (Boulder/Denver), I'm not subject to the same economic pressures as the average American male my age. My concern is that (by my first theory) we have a growing group of young men with narcissism problems. They are also coming of age in an economy which increasingly doesn't need them. Their job—and therefore romantic—prospects are poor. A large group of narcissistic men unable to find recognition at work or in love, yearning for the reward stimulation they once got from their Xbox. Most will muddle along, merely dissatisfied. Narcissists, of course, do not blame themselves for their problems. Those are the fault of others. So is it that much of a leap to imagine how this fuels movements like the alt-right? Certainly, unemployed men have been a source of strife throughout history. When I read the rhetoric of the alt-right, either their leaders or those who subscribe to the philosophy, it's impossible not to hear the language of revenge and envy. Revenge against not just successful individuals—those with careers, love, success, recognition, fueled by petty envy—but also revenge against the entire system that now conspires, supposedly, against these men, preventing them from achieving their proper position and the recognition they deserve. They see a society celebrating women, minorities, the educated, the talented and crave the same. Society does not celebrate them. So that society, therefore, must be abolished. Men are growing up with a desire for recognition, they are failing to find that recognition and that leads them to lash out. ---- Thus endeth my theory. It's probably a load of crap. But I'm also sure it describes some posters here on HN. I know it describes some friends of mine.
• microcolonel 10y ago
  Once again, blaming the drug for the addiction. Maybe if life were, frankly, worth living; more people might choose to. I'm a young man who just wants to live a decent life, marry a nice girl, and have a family some time in the next decade and a half. I have a promising career, I never really had to try to make money. I can tell you that if life weren't so easy for me, I would probably just spend every day masturbating, eating ramen, and playing video games. I thank my lucky stars that I was born middle class with a well-above-average IQ, met so many wonderful people who have stuck by me, and that I have the chance to live in a great city. The world hates weak men. Video games are a great way to enjoy an otherwise empty life in a world full of people who think you're a waste of everything you cost. Nobody should blame them for doing what makes sense with what they have.
• researcher11 10y ago
  I dropped out and retired at 31 to a third world country. I'm going to study whatever I'm interested in while the economy sorts itself out. I may never re-enter the job maket. I'm ok with that. I'm not rich but it's really cheap here. I don't want to be forced into a rental market or stock market. The jobs don't pay enough and the margins are too thin. The risk is too high and all of my statistical modeling is telling me that the debt fueled market ends in tears. Good luck with that. Count me out. Don't blame me if you can't find someone to help you build software.
  • bronz 10y ago
    whats the best country to retire in the way you have?
    • researcher11 10y ago
      I'm in rual Panama. It's probably the best for tax and lifestyle reasons.
      • acover 10y ago
        How do you deal with citizenship/visas?
        • researcher11 10y ago
          With lawyers. It cost me $8K and took 6 months. $3K of that was for a company and bank account.
      • Tepix 10y ago
        If you want to buy something from the US (perhaps a new computer), is it difficult and expensive to get stuff sent there?
  • proudofyou 10y ago
    How much did you save before you retired?
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• laughfactory 10y ago
  It's not just video games either. Add Netflix and social media, and soon, VR, to the equation, and it's pretty clear that the game of life offers insufficient rewards relative to one's efforts. I don't believe we ended up here due to some grand conspiracy, but I do think that the top 1% have gotten so skilled at trapping wealth and therefore opportunity that it's really screwing over everyone else. Even as a relatively successful adult who doesn't game (no time for it, and I avoid things I know are addictive) I felt the game is rigged. Most of us have gotten to the point that we literally never expect to retire (though we will literally run into some physical constraints at some point when our bodies and minds begin to fail us). So we grind through work, pay our bills, and hope to God we don't get cancer or Alzheimer's. When life seems so unrewarding, it's unsurprising that many seek refuge in games and other entertainment (Netflix, social media, news feeds, etc)... Any way you slice it this is not going to end well. Essentially we're in a Great Depression of an entirely new sort.
  • yehi 10y ago
    I have to disagree. Apart from maybe post WW2 in America, the average person has always had to work much harder than the elite. There were sweatshops, Kings, slavery, and colonialism. If we look at American now, even with all of its issues, it is much better for the middle and lower class than it was 100 years ago.
    • datatan 10y ago
      Not sure how you come to that conclusion when the middle class is almost gone in this country.
      • deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      • jpatokal 10y ago
        Not quite: https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/2930990/Distribution_of_Annual_Household_Income_in_the_United_States_2012.0.png https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/2930990/D...
• dvt 10y ago
  Usually love the Economist -- and I read it regularly -- but I think this article is bullshit. It's the same kind of nonsense people were writing in the mid and late-90s: that violent games cause violent tendencies. Luckily, those claims ended up being completely debunked by dozens of studies. Now, we have a "gaming epidemic" that has gripped the unemployed, underemployed, and depressed? Give me a break. Gaming is simply the cheapest form of entertainment and escapism today. In the 70s, it was movies. In the 60s? I don't know, drugs? My point is that gaming is used here as a red herring (heck the article even admits to this: "gaming isn't the problem" in one of the last paragraphs). Really, this has nothing to do with gaming, and everything to do with the growing pains of every generation. The article also tries to awkwardly criticize common-sense truisms, e.g.: "Many gamers (Guillaume among them) report that they are happy with the decision to work less and game more." Uh.. duh? Even I would be happy working less and gaming more, and I have a pretty awesome job. Is it really some kind of poignant discovery that people would rather have fun than work? Here's another example: "For Emily, and for many others, games were not the luxury luring her away from career. They were a comfort blanket and distraction, providing some solace when the working world offered only bitter disappointment." And.. why is this bad exactly? Why is it bad to take some time off and decompress if you have a horrible job you hate? What's the alternative? Work yourself to the bone, fall in love with someone you hate, have some kids that hate you, get a divorce, and die alone? What is Mr. Avent's point here? Because I don't see one. Disclaimer: I played Counter-Strike competitively and professionally from around 17-22 (I'd say on average 5-6 hours a day). I still play every now and then, but don't compete at tournaments or in leagues. I'm 30 now. Not only was my experience irreplaceable and positive (I made many life-long friends and met many cool people), but it also helped me with many other aspects of "grown-up" life: - I learned to be goal-oriented and focused - I learned how to lead and work with a team to succeed at a common goal - I learned how to weed out shitty people that poison the environment - I learned what it truly takes and how hard it is to be the top 1% at anything (even at a stupid video game) - I learned how to negotiate contracts and balance budgets
  • glangdale 10y ago
    I kind of get what you're saying, but the phenomenon is new: this isn't the only source I've seen that discusses that there is a growing amount of un- or under-employment among young men that seems to be accepted comparatively happily, with the hypothesis that compelling computer games are part of the difference. I'm pretty sure that the analogy with movies is weak, although probably the 80s equivalent was sitting around watching TV all day (the moral panic I remember from that period). "Why is it bad to take some time off and decompress if you have a horrible job you hate? What's the alternative? Work yourself to the bone, fall in love with someone you hate, have some kids that hate you, get a divorce, and die alone? What is Mr. Avent's point here? Because I don't see one." I think that if you're that annoyed about the idea of this article using strawmen to beat up on the idea of gaming, you should have a little more awareness of the phenomenon in your own writing/thinking... Yep, I'm pretty sure that it's either decompress or "work yourself to the bone and fall in love with someone you hate".
• daodedickinson 10y ago
  I got great grades. Didn't matter, no one with enough capital to employ human beings wanted me to do anything for them. So I have to come up with fake things to do. If you don't like it, maximize employment and start hiring people not for profitability but with an aim towards developing people into what you consider maturity to be. Our powerful people like the Uber CEO don't seem to be concerned with whether they are designing a society in which people can have thriving marriages and support children. The Uber CEO apparently believes that he himself is not mature.
• itchyjunk 10y ago
  <long winded rant> Games, to a degree is escapism of course. When I dropped out of college and sat at the back of a public library, I saw all types of values as I spent so many hours in so many different games. Learnt about communicating only the important details in first person shooters (FPS) and learnt about sacrificing my character to save my carry in MOBA [2] games like leauge of legends and dota 2. Though no one outside gaming communities generally care about such things. I get called lazy and get told that I am wasting my life away fairly often. A game like dota 2 has roughly 500k player playing at any given time. about 3x more for leauge. Thats 500k * 24 hours a day spent collectively as humans on a game on any given day. So billions of hours a week is not a bad estimation. There is a tedtalk video that talks about the hours as well.[1] I often this about this in the back of my mind when people talk about universal basic income (UBI) and unemployment. I think the future generation will find it natural to put in large hours into games and it won't be seen as negative. Games are also asylum for some though, i've met some really awesome people but people who were clearly in very bad places mentally. Some have spent years in game collecting and achieving stuff that will have no meaning to anyone outside of the game but means the world to them. (Sadly one killed himself after his account got hacked and all this stuff was gone). Therefore, I wish people approaching from the outside of specific communities trying to talk to these people and talk about issues would sometimes take a little time to look at the culture before going off on stuff like "bikini armor" [3] (female character with `impractical` armor) or video game violence or toxicity[4] in gaming community. Yes these all might be problems and we'd all like to address it, but trying to confront a population who's already withdrawn from reality to varying degree is not the best approach from my point of view. </ long winded rant> [1] https://www.ted.com/talks/jane_mcgonigal_gaming_can_make_a_better_world https://www.ted.com/talks/jane_mcgonigal_gaming_can_make_a_b... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplayer_online_battle_arena https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplayer_online_battle_aren... [3] https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSrC_DIHRIqO5bjPogGrZraS4fOEDvDd8okN78nSA9szeauLme5dw https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSrC_DI... [4] https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/2v9zqf/top_10_most_toxic_game_communities/ https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/2v9zqf/top_10_most_...
• Bahamut 10y ago
  I had a bout with game addiction for almost my first two years of college. At some point, I decided to fight it, and devote myself not just to breaking that addiction, but being dedicated to retaining the ability to break any addiction I wanted to. I managed to survive college with dual BS degrees in mathematics and physics, and attend a prestigious graduate program in mathematics, although I had to pay my way via loans for two years because of the damage I did to my grades my first two years of college. I was secretly dejected after leaving graduate school after 4 years, but was fortunate to land in software engineering. I don't play too many games anymore just due to being busy, but I still am tied into the game industry due to my tight network of friends, many whom became successful in the game music industry, or games or music.
• callmeed 10y ago
  Someone should figure out a way to embed mechanical turk tasks into video games. Then young men can at least get paid a little bit for their game play.
  • Endy 10y ago
    Bitcoin mining?
  • mos_basik 10y ago
    The MMO Eve Online partnered with the Human Protein Atlas to embed a protein-mapping minigame in Eve. It was fitted into the game's overarching storyline and gives in-game rewards for participating. A month or two after it was introduced they released some numbers; something like 37 man-years of classification labor had been performed. And because it's in a game with an existing playerbase and provides reward as long as it is played, it is still continuing to yield results (naturally it slowed down after the first peak of interest) in contrast to the tendency (they claim) of most standalone crowdsourced data science projects to struggle to gain traction and dry up fast. http://www.pcworld.com/article/3060692/software-games/how-eve-online-players-are-solving-real-world-science-problems-meet-project-discovery.html http://www.pcworld.com/article/3060692/software-games/how-ev...
    • callmeed 10y ago
      Fascinating, thanks for this. I had a suspicion I wasn't the first person to come up with this idea. I wonder how well such a program could expand to other forms of crowdsourced data.
• sauronlord 10y ago
  Love it. Less competition for jobs, real estate, and other resources. Can't wait to see full blown VR and what it will bring
• touchofevil 10y ago
  I played A LOT of competitive Magic: The Gathering from about age 14-21. We used to call it "cardboard crack" so we all understood that the game was addictive. I had a lot of fun and met some great people, but even back then I knew that I had a problem with the game and that I was addicted to it. This was before people talked about gaming addiction and I don't think American society understood that it could actually be a serious issue. I knew people who got addicted to EverQuest (aka EverCrack) and watched them go MIA for six months at a time from the Magic scene and drop out of high school to play EverQuest for 12 hours a day. This was back in 1999, so gaming addiction definitely isn't new. I found that gaming addiction becomes self-reinforcing once you start putting a significant number of hours into gaming. Once you spend enough time gaming you'll end up not having enough hours to fulfill your real world commitments, like studying. Not fulfilling your real world commitments will cause you stress (failing a test) and you'll seek relief by going back to gaming. This can become a vicious cycle quickly as the more you game to relieve your stress, the more stress you end up creating for yourself by having even less time to fulfill your real world obligations. The kids I knew who had the most unstable families were the ones who paid the highest price for their gaming addiction and ended up not graduating from high school. So I'm not surprised that unemployed young men who have unstable professional lives are getting hit hard by gaming addiction now. I hope they can break the cycle. I burned off a lot of hours playing Magic and I do sometimes wonder what could have come of that time if it had been spent elsewhere.
  • taway_1212 10y ago
    I dunno, I also played a lot of competitive M:tG, between 17 and 22, but I found it very fulfilling. I made some of my life-long friends through it, I went to places all over Europe (for tournaments) and overall had a ton of fun. That was mostly before the advent of Magic Online, I understand that now Magic can be largely played like other online video games (plus the skill level is way higher, because the most obsessed people can just practice 100 hours per week), whereas in the past it explicitly required you to socialize to have playtesting partners, borrow cards, split rides to tournaments etc.
    • touchofevil 10y ago
• iopq 10y ago
  I'm in a similar spot right now. There is nothing as satisfying to me as playing StarCraft and honing my skills. When I worked as a software developer I didn't feel like I was improving my skills past a few months at each company. It was more like doing the same boring work over and over again. Even when I do the same builds in StarCraft over and over again there's always an element of the other player trying to mess you up. It adds an unpredictability element. You can ALWAYS do better by playing faster and more accurately. There is always more skills to work on. Work pales in comparison. It's just not exciting.
• pvaldes 10y ago
  "Emily lives in a small town not far from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. In 2013 she graduated from university and took a job at a marketing firm – a miserable one which she left after a few months... After months of unhappy unemployment, Emily found work: as a cashier in a local shop" Spanish government's research job offer last month. Some of the requirements: having 16-30 years old and a Phd degree. Maybe is the market who lives in an alternate reality when it is expected that you start university at 8-10 years old to have a job, but you are too old at 23.
  • AstralStorm 10y ago
    It is ageism, a form of discrimination. Has to be fought against.
• ajeet_dhaliwal 10y ago
  I don't think this is an increasing phenomena due to games getting 'better' as much as due to the economic climate. Even children do it, I did. It can be a good thing and a bad thing. The reason I am a hacker and earn a living as a 'professional software engineer' today, have worked in the games industry and now also at a startup is all because of the interest in games and software generated during my childhood playing video games in order to get escapism from the bullies. Games seemed a thing of beauty the way there were balanced. Even if the protagonist is getting attacked by one hundred enemies the programmer will provide some ability to fight back. Games are pleasurable because the 'hard work' you put in pays off. Life is not always like that, it's only sometimes like that, and for some people it doesn't seem to matter how hard they work, there's a lot of hopeless places to live in the world. People don't want to live in the USA and other places because they want easy access to Disney Land, they just want to play a fairer game. Now the fact that this is happening in the US, indicates that the economic situation is not as good as it once was for some people. If it improves people would come out of the games because there would be opportunity outside in the real world and anyone would pick the real world rather than games in that case because games are created by people and are rather limited and dull imitations of our real world, our real world is infinitely more interesting and complex.
  • Asooka 10y ago
    Yeah I don't think games are different than anything else you can get addicted to. They're healthier than drugs and alcohol and keep you out of trouble. You don't even get the acute physical dependence you do with alcohol and they don't really make you dumber like some drugs. If someone is spending all day playing games, they have a mental health problem, or literally nothing better to do, which could be a societal problem. I mean at some point you can decide fuck it, the game is rigged, there's nothing I can do for my future, let me enjoy myself while I can. We've seen this play out with gangs, alcohol and plenty of other things more destructive than gamea.
  • intended 10y ago
    I disagree - and I also think the counter point needs to be more dispersed. A majority of the games created today are straight up skinner boxes which engender and support addictive/gambling behaviors. Especially since today, most games are in your mobile phone and not your PC/Console. These programs use random reward schedules, linear reward schedules, everything. They use it with constantly fine tuned schedules, and with constant feedback. These are machines, which send dopamine shots to the brain at precision tool levels. There is no real world analogue that can beat 1) Random chance of huge drop (dopamine hit) 2) Clear performance metrics showing steps to next dopamine hit 3) Timers showing when next free dopamine hit is coming 4) Social tie ins to increase reach and invoke community/social mental systems as well as social proof/buy in 5) Streamlined, A/B tested interfaces and messaging. 6) Leader boards for the competitive 7) Mobile and thus constantly available I used to dream of making games which were like that, because I thought I was being a sneaky bastard. Then I saw these creatures appear on the market. Many people out there with less sense and more money are happy to blame the gamer and call it "just a game". Lets be clear: This kind of design should be banned/disallowed. And if anyone gets upset by using "banned" on HN, let me remind everyone that around the world Subliminal Advertizing is disallowed, if not directly illegal. Shiny skinner boxes in everyones hand are planes of existence worse than Subliminal ads. I am a gamer, and have been since the day I saw an atari, and fumbled with a sinclair spectrum. This shit is beyond unethical.
• chiefalchemist 10y ago
  Welcome to The Matrix.
• anjc 10y ago
  Eh. Young men are "dropping out of the job market" due to a lack of ability to be accepted into it regardless of education or ability. And they're spending time doing lots more things than gaming, which you can see from rates of drug addiction and depression and suicide and so on. Saying that they're dropping out of the job market to spend time gaming is bizarre and wrong. At various points in the article it hits vaguely onto the actual truth of the matter.
  • Asooka 10y ago
    Yeah but "young men find out the job market is shit and turn to various other vendors of dopamine" just doesn't have the same ring. It's those gosh darned rock and roll video games ya know.
• throwaway862 10y ago
  This is at least partly because employers have gotten too picky. They want unicorn candidates that will work for a pittance, and if they can't find them, then they expect the government to provide them through guest worker visas or other forms of corporate welfare: http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/why-good-people-cant-get-jobs-chasing-after-the-purple-squirrel/ http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/why-good-people-c... This is particularly bad in tech. When good jobs are seemingly always out of reach, it's understandable that some people eventually just give up: http://danluu.com/programmer-moneyball/ http://danluu.com/programmer-moneyball/ It's also worth noting that young men are dropping out of the marriage market too, given how risky a proposition marriage has become for men. If you don't plan on having a wife or a traditional family, then your living expenses plummet. Why work yourself to the bone to pay for a big house, multiple cars, or the other costly trappings of married life that a modern family requires (or at least, a modern wife demands) if you don't plan on having one? In a way, it's actually quite brilliant, because feminism has traditionally worked to secure women's independence by just shifting their dependence from their fathers and husbands to the state in the form of public assistance, which women consume vastly more of, and which men vastly more subsidize through taxation. What happens when men work less and pay less in taxes, and the till no longer remains full?