21 ms·

As an American citizen who travelled extensively up until TSA made me too miserable to continue, I am absolutely embarrassed about the travel situation in the U

by Steeeve 10y ago

As an American citizen who travelled extensively up until TSA made me too miserable to continue, I am absolutely embarrassed about the travel situation in the United States. I grew up in the land of freedom, and grew up hating overzealous and pointless "security" associated with the iron curtain. We have freedom of speech, which inherently means freedom of thought. At one point we were the bastion of freedom and hope, and a leader in this regard. Nobody should fear harassment because they happened to speak at DEFCON anymore than one should fear harassment because they spoke at Jesus camp, or the science fair for that matter. We SHOULD be encouraging people to come here and talk about things that might get them in trouble in their home countries. We SHOULD take a position of leadership and protect the basic inalienable rights of all people regardless of their citizenship, alliances, or thoughts. I am absolutely appalled at the state that our government has arrived at. I am stunned that after such a strong revocation of the previous leadership that Obama's generation sought to increase security theater, decrease freedom, and decrease the rights afforded to our own citizens and our visitors. The enemy of our freedom isn't thousands of miles away in some terrorist training camp. It's the people we freely elect who have seemingly no forethought and no historical understanding of our fundamental values. A leader isn't someone who looks to cover his ass at every opportunity. A leader is someone who stands up, tells people there is something wrong, and pushes us back to the values that we were raised to be proud of. You don't have to be president to be a leader. Every police officer, every border agent, every engineer, janitor, and unemployed citizen can stand up at some point and see enough is enough. People need to stop arguing about politics and stop worrying about the boogey man. People need to start caring about freedom and they need to stop the culture of fear. Sorry... This whole discussion hit a sore spot for me. I have always been a proud american and this kind of behavior just flies in the face of the values I was raised to embrace.

tallanvor 10y ago
I'm an American expat who tries to return to the US as little as possible, primarily because of the shit I've been put through. As a US citizen, I shouldn't be submitted to invasive search after invasive search just because I had to buy a last minute ticket back to the US because a close relative either died or was close to death (seriously, my mother died less than an hour after I got there). The way I see it, if the shit I have to go through is that bad, the stuff they put non-Americans through is probably 10 times worse, and I'm embarrassed and pissed off that "my" country treats people that way. In no way do our boarder guards represent my beliefs, values, or integrity.
- ironic_ali 10y ago
  I'm in my 40s (UK) and have traveled a fair bit, including the US before 9/11. After that and then the TSA, I will never set foot in the US again. Which is a shame, as I really enjoyed the country and people, and was seriously considering moving there back then.
AwfulCaptain 10y ago
These stories have been happening since the Bush administration. Why didn't Obama do anything about it? You think Trump is going to do something about it? Maybe it was none of their responsibilities. sarcasm Edit: added a sarcasm note
- ctrl-j 10y ago
  > Maybe it was none of their responsibilities. Pretty sure border security does fall under the executive branch. Obama, for all his good social policies, had a much harder stance on foreign policy than I think was needed. I don't believe the failing TSA is the reason we don't have many transit-related terrorist attacks in the USA. Not to mention, a large majority of the US population is xenophobic and/or racist. Giving the appearance of relaxing border security (even though it's been shown to be completely ineffective as-is), would be a poor political move. Considering one of Trump's campaign promises was to build a wall between the US and Mexico - I doubt he's going to make things better.
  - rdtsc 10y ago
    > Obama, for all his good social policies, What were even his good social policies. I tried to remember a few and couldn't. ACA for healthcare perhaps? Can't think of others. Specifically the Black community voted for him and looking back I can't see if their lives improved a lot during his tenure. > Considering one of Trump's campaign promises was to build a wall between the US and Mexico - I doubt he's going to make things better. Yap doesn't seem hopeful. I think with Obama many thought he might be pro-privacy. I did somehow. I was wrong. Trump isn't and I don't know if we'll ever see someone campaigning and winning with that as a major part of their platform.
    - adventured 10y ago
      Obama had very few good social policies. One could argue he slightly stepped back the enforcement of drug laws when it comes to the states beginning to legalize. He did a horrible job when it comes to drug legalization, openly refusing to go to bat for it at the Federal level. The ACA was a disaster (of course it was, it was a zillion pages long, written by lobbyists, and few people read it before it was voted on), except for a few features such as coverage for pre-existing conditions. He didn't make almost any real progress on US problems with mass incarceration either, although he talked about it a few times. He was against gay marriage initially, then flipped when it was politically convenient; the Supreme Court was responsible for enacting that equality at the federal level however. He was also a massive civil liberties violator, when it came to privacy and was openly unapologetic about it (he was clearly an anti-privacy hawk in all regards). In short, yeah, he didn't do much of anything socially.
balls187 10y ago
> As an American citizen who travelled extensively up until TSA made me too miserable to continue, What happened?
- Steeeve 10y ago
  While I want to and could go for days on end about it, experience tells me that it's better to not poke the bear too much online.
  - __jal 10y ago
    And here is the chilling effect in action, folks. Enjoy your freedom of speech.
    - BoorishBears 10y ago
      To play devil's advocate, it's pretty easy to claim that the reason you don't want to detail something as personal as your treatment at the hands of the TSA after claiming it was so horrid that it discouraged you from traveling, is that the TSA will somehow find your online Hacker News profile and single you out next time you try and fly. But it's also possible that maybe the poster doesn't want to reveal something personal, or that the treatment might not be considered as severe as the first comment implied by others, or a myriad of reasons.
      - funnyfacts365 10y ago
        But he explicitly said it's better notbto poke the beat that much online, so your whole reply doesn't make any sense. Unless your whole point was to call GP a liar. Devils advocate my ass.
        zepto 10y ago
        He or she isn't calling the GP a liar. The GP may legitimately have these fears, but if we don't know the story we can't tell anything about what they mean.
stefantalpalaru 10y ago
> At one point we were the bastion of freedom and hope, and a leader in this regard. Were you really? The more I read about it, the more it looks like a propaganda success story.
nialv7 10y ago
In a sense, the terrorists had already won. They succeeded in planting fear in our heart.
- bigbugbag 10y ago
  Hmm, in a sense you have lost because you use an undefined enemy as being the cause for misery. Come back when there is an actual definition of terrorism and your side is not guilty of hundred times more of that than the other side.
- saiya-jin 10y ago
  Well that's the whole point of terrorism, to create so much fear that entire population/country will become irrational and make stupid decisions that will server the perpetrators. Usually nothing more. And yes, they succeeded in that, helped greatly by US media ala Murdoch's empire (seriously, that guy did more harm to US citizens than most media-demonized guys combined - why is he not in place like Guantanamo?)
- Broken_Hippo 10y ago
  I've been saying the same since I saw the response after 9/11. Well, I've been thinking it. I found out it is a very unpopular thing to say living in the states, and probably just as weird living outside of it.
kennywinker 10y ago
If the TSA is really the issue (not customs and border patrol) consider taking the train. It's actually quite a nice way to travel in my experience.
elastic_church 10y ago
That is an interesting parallel to the iron curtain, as people, such as the airport security in other countries, make fun of US airport security now.
Havoc 10y ago
>I grew up in the land of freedom Yeah the whole TSA is a cruel joke on the whole freedom theme...
davewasthere 10y ago
As an International (not American) citizen who has lived in various countries and travelled extensively, I've made it a point to avoid the US. Don't get me wrong, the country is absolutely amazing, people are friendly, scenery is outstanding (and this is coming from someone born in NZ). But yeah, border controls are just utterly awful. I think my first introduction was transiting from Canada to UK via the US in 1999. A very friendly goodbye from the Canadian immigration, then a short walk to probably the most unwelcoming customs I've ever had the displeasure of enduring. But I'll admit, they've been consistent over the past 18 years. Now that a visa is required even for transit, I've basically just given up and now fly exclusively via Asia. Bonus is, it doesn't get any friendlier than flying Singapore Airlines - and the stopover destinations are awesome. I've travelled some of the US (not enough) and I absolutely love the country. But yeah, the overzealous security is definitely a turn-off.
- bigbugbag 10y ago
  Same here, I now avoid the US entirely even for an international flight change.
cmurf 10y ago
Copy and paste that whole thing into an email (form on their web site) for you Congressional senators (2) and representative (1). It isn't going to get better unless we complain, or the elected are replaced by people who understand this is a problem. The legacy representatives aren't affected by these policies.
aryehof 10y ago
The constant affirmation of being "free", the need to "protect our freedom" and "the greatest country in the world", simply stops people questioning anything about the relative state of society and freedom. Instead of being 1st in the world, the USA ranks 23rd in the world for freedom [1], and 11th for economic freedom [2]. It's only likely to get worse. Even sadder is that there are countries where people have a average life expectancy up to 5% longer than the USA. [1] https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index [2] http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
- HeavenBanned 10y ago
  23rd? That's a generous number, and likely over-inflated.
- kbart 10y ago
  USA is only 41th in the rankings of press freedom[0]. That's worse than some African countries. 0. https://rsf.org/en/ranking# https://rsf.org/en/ranking#
  - throwaway122916 10y ago
    I don't disagree with US not having freedom, but I don't think the nordic countries should be up there either. For example, you can't publish news in Sweden/Finland/Germany that can be interpreted as anti-feminist or has an anti-refugees sentiment. This soft pressure is hard to quantify because as a journalist you would lose your job and be accused of various things if you attempted to publish something like that.
    - kbart 10y ago
      Where did you get such information? I don't know about anti-feministm, but I've seen plenty of anti-refugees articles both in Swedish and German. Moreover, Pegida (openly anti-refugees and anti-islamisation) is an officially registered association in Germany. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegida https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegida
rosege 10y ago
ok seems everyone is posting their USA TSA/immigration horror stories - here are my 2 - luckily didnt happen to me. 1. A female friend of mine was living in NYC. She had patents for some tech that she invented and was living in the US while trying to sell the patents or potentially build a business with them. Went to Toronto to see a friend, on return the immigration agent asked her what she did in the US - she explained she worked in tech and the immigration official said she didnt look like an IT person and cancelled her visa. She tried to get him to look up her patents but he refused. She had to leave the country and go reapply for her visa or sort it out back in Australia. 2. Margaret Jackson - former chairman of QANTAS was searched by TSA and they found airplane schematics, when asked why she had the schematics she said she was the chairman of QANTAS, the TSA responded, but you're a woman! http://www.informationliberation.com/index.php/www.deloitte.com?id=5852 http://www.informationliberation.com/index.php/www.deloitte....
- lostlogin 10y ago
  These both read like sexism?
  - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
    Which isn't surprising. With most law enforcement, you are purged by your looks before you ever get to say a thing. My own things against me: I'm female. I'm assumed to be smuggling drugs, partially because I travel light and partially because I have blue hair.
    - nicolas_t 10y ago
      When I had long hairs and was in my 20s, I used to systematically have my baggage searched whenever I came to Asia (especially in Japan). Now that I'm in my thirties with short hairs and clean cut, I'm never searched... It seems stupid, I mean potential drug smugglers must know about this and adapt their looks. In the end, it's really just security theater. I would prefer to have long hairs again and just be able to dress whatever way I want but as someone who travels a lot, I ended up having to conform...
clarkmoody 10y ago
...and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. -Declaration of Independence
bigbugbag 10y ago
I'm not sure when was the time you grew up, but this travel situation was already like in the 1990's just a bit less global (less effective spying maybe) and though documented a lot less publicized. When you're not an American citizen, even at the time you could be detained indefinitely in high security prison without being able to tell anyone. The story of the guy to whom it actually happened on the motive that he was involved in importing super nintendo legalish accessory (game genie or disk copier or something along these lines) in a different country should still be floating around. Then there is this guy on whom they pulled gattaca stuff as in vacuuming his laptop keyboard and run the collected dust through lab analysis. This is pre-TSA stuff, so IMHO the travel situation in the US has not really changed in nature, only in scale.
herbst 10y ago
I never understood where this "freedom" comes from. I mean sure you can say whatever you want. Nearly any western country can, with some exceptions. But exactly things like the linked article show how unfree the US is. Everbody is just arguing about their favorite president, or rather the one they hate less. While all that was left of that "freedom" is slowly breaking away. Freedom is so much more than freedom of speech...

by Steeeve 10y ago

tallanvor 10y ago

I'm an American expat who tries to return to the US as little as possible, primarily because of the shit I've been put through. As a US citizen, I shouldn't be submitted to invasive search after invasive search just because I had to buy a last minute ticket back to the US because a close relative either died or was close to death (seriously, my mother died less than an hour after I got there). The way I see it, if the shit I have to go through is that bad, the stuff they put non-Americans through is probably 10 times worse, and I'm embarrassed and pissed off that "my" country treats people that way. In no way do our boarder guards represent my beliefs, values, or integrity.

ironic_ali 10y ago
I'm in my 40s (UK) and have traveled a fair bit, including the US before 9/11. After that and then the TSA, I will never set foot in the US again. Which is a shame, as I really enjoyed the country and people, and was seriously considering moving there back then.

AwfulCaptain 10y ago

These stories have been happening since the Bush administration. Why didn't Obama do anything about it? You think Trump is going to do something about it? Maybe it was none of their responsibilities. sarcasm Edit: added a sarcasm note

ctrl-j 10y ago
> Maybe it was none of their responsibilities. Pretty sure border security does fall under the executive branch. Obama, for all his good social policies, had a much harder stance on foreign policy than I think was needed. I don't believe the failing TSA is the reason we don't have many transit-related terrorist attacks in the USA. Not to mention, a large majority of the US population is xenophobic and/or racist. Giving the appearance of relaxing border security (even though it's been shown to be completely ineffective as-is), would be a poor political move. Considering one of Trump's campaign promises was to build a wall between the US and Mexico - I doubt he's going to make things better.
- rdtsc 10y ago
  > Obama, for all his good social policies, What were even his good social policies. I tried to remember a few and couldn't. ACA for healthcare perhaps? Can't think of others. Specifically the Black community voted for him and looking back I can't see if their lives improved a lot during his tenure. > Considering one of Trump's campaign promises was to build a wall between the US and Mexico - I doubt he's going to make things better. Yap doesn't seem hopeful. I think with Obama many thought he might be pro-privacy. I did somehow. I was wrong. Trump isn't and I don't know if we'll ever see someone campaigning and winning with that as a major part of their platform.
  - adventured 10y ago
    Obama had very few good social policies. One could argue he slightly stepped back the enforcement of drug laws when it comes to the states beginning to legalize. He did a horrible job when it comes to drug legalization, openly refusing to go to bat for it at the Federal level. The ACA was a disaster (of course it was, it was a zillion pages long, written by lobbyists, and few people read it before it was voted on), except for a few features such as coverage for pre-existing conditions. He didn't make almost any real progress on US problems with mass incarceration either, although he talked about it a few times. He was against gay marriage initially, then flipped when it was politically convenient; the Supreme Court was responsible for enacting that equality at the federal level however. He was also a massive civil liberties violator, when it came to privacy and was openly unapologetic about it (he was clearly an anti-privacy hawk in all regards). In short, yeah, he didn't do much of anything socially.

balls187 10y ago

> As an American citizen who travelled extensively up until TSA made me too miserable to continue, What happened?

Steeeve 10y ago
While I want to and could go for days on end about it, experience tells me that it's better to not poke the bear too much online.
- __jal 10y ago
  And here is the chilling effect in action, folks. Enjoy your freedom of speech.
  - BoorishBears 10y ago
    To play devil's advocate, it's pretty easy to claim that the reason you don't want to detail something as personal as your treatment at the hands of the TSA after claiming it was so horrid that it discouraged you from traveling, is that the TSA will somehow find your online Hacker News profile and single you out next time you try and fly. But it's also possible that maybe the poster doesn't want to reveal something personal, or that the treatment might not be considered as severe as the first comment implied by others, or a myriad of reasons.
    - funnyfacts365 10y ago
      But he explicitly said it's better notbto poke the beat that much online, so your whole reply doesn't make any sense. Unless your whole point was to call GP a liar. Devils advocate my ass.
      - zepto 10y ago
        He or she isn't calling the GP a liar. The GP may legitimately have these fears, but if we don't know the story we can't tell anything about what they mean.

stefantalpalaru 10y ago

> At one point we were the bastion of freedom and hope, and a leader in this regard. Were you really? The more I read about it, the more it looks like a propaganda success story.

nialv7 10y ago

In a sense, the terrorists had already won. They succeeded in planting fear in our heart.

bigbugbag 10y ago
Hmm, in a sense you have lost because you use an undefined enemy as being the cause for misery. Come back when there is an actual definition of terrorism and your side is not guilty of hundred times more of that than the other side.
saiya-jin 10y ago
Well that's the whole point of terrorism, to create so much fear that entire population/country will become irrational and make stupid decisions that will server the perpetrators. Usually nothing more. And yes, they succeeded in that, helped greatly by US media ala Murdoch's empire (seriously, that guy did more harm to US citizens than most media-demonized guys combined - why is he not in place like Guantanamo?)
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
I've been saying the same since I saw the response after 9/11. Well, I've been thinking it. I found out it is a very unpopular thing to say living in the states, and probably just as weird living outside of it.

kennywinker 10y ago

If the TSA is really the issue (not customs and border patrol) consider taking the train. It's actually quite a nice way to travel in my experience.

elastic_church 10y ago

That is an interesting parallel to the iron curtain, as people, such as the airport security in other countries, make fun of US airport security now.

Havoc 10y ago

>I grew up in the land of freedom Yeah the whole TSA is a cruel joke on the whole freedom theme...

davewasthere 10y ago

As an International (not American) citizen who has lived in various countries and travelled extensively, I've made it a point to avoid the US. Don't get me wrong, the country is absolutely amazing, people are friendly, scenery is outstanding (and this is coming from someone born in NZ). But yeah, border controls are just utterly awful. I think my first introduction was transiting from Canada to UK via the US in 1999. A very friendly goodbye from the Canadian immigration, then a short walk to probably the most unwelcoming customs I've ever had the displeasure of enduring. But I'll admit, they've been consistent over the past 18 years. Now that a visa is required even for transit, I've basically just given up and now fly exclusively via Asia. Bonus is, it doesn't get any friendlier than flying Singapore Airlines - and the stopover destinations are awesome. I've travelled some of the US (not enough) and I absolutely love the country. But yeah, the overzealous security is definitely a turn-off.

bigbugbag 10y ago
Same here, I now avoid the US entirely even for an international flight change.

cmurf 10y ago

Copy and paste that whole thing into an email (form on their web site) for you Congressional senators (2) and representative (1). It isn't going to get better unless we complain, or the elected are replaced by people who understand this is a problem. The legacy representatives aren't affected by these policies.

aryehof 10y ago

The constant affirmation of being "free", the need to "protect our freedom" and "the greatest country in the world", simply stops people questioning anything about the relative state of society and freedom. Instead of being 1st in the world, the USA ranks 23rd in the world for freedom [1], and 11th for economic freedom [2]. It's only likely to get worse. Even sadder is that there are countries where people have a average life expectancy up to 5% longer than the USA. [1] https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index [2] http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

HeavenBanned 10y ago
23rd? That's a generous number, and likely over-inflated.
kbart 10y ago
USA is only 41th in the rankings of press freedom[0]. That's worse than some African countries. 0. https://rsf.org/en/ranking# https://rsf.org/en/ranking#
- throwaway122916 10y ago
  I don't disagree with US not having freedom, but I don't think the nordic countries should be up there either. For example, you can't publish news in Sweden/Finland/Germany that can be interpreted as anti-feminist or has an anti-refugees sentiment. This soft pressure is hard to quantify because as a journalist you would lose your job and be accused of various things if you attempted to publish something like that.
  - kbart 10y ago
    Where did you get such information? I don't know about anti-feministm, but I've seen plenty of anti-refugees articles both in Swedish and German. Moreover, Pegida (openly anti-refugees and anti-islamisation) is an officially registered association in Germany. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegida https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegida

rosege 10y ago

ok seems everyone is posting their USA TSA/immigration horror stories - here are my 2 - luckily didnt happen to me. 1. A female friend of mine was living in NYC. She had patents for some tech that she invented and was living in the US while trying to sell the patents or potentially build a business with them. Went to Toronto to see a friend, on return the immigration agent asked her what she did in the US - she explained she worked in tech and the immigration official said she didnt look like an IT person and cancelled her visa. She tried to get him to look up her patents but he refused. She had to leave the country and go reapply for her visa or sort it out back in Australia. 2. Margaret Jackson - former chairman of QANTAS was searched by TSA and they found airplane schematics, when asked why she had the schematics she said she was the chairman of QANTAS, the TSA responded, but you're a woman! http://www.informationliberation.com/index.php/www.deloitte.com?id=5852 http://www.informationliberation.com/index.php/www.deloitte....

lostlogin 10y ago
These both read like sexism?
- Broken_Hippo 10y ago
  Which isn't surprising. With most law enforcement, you are purged by your looks before you ever get to say a thing. My own things against me: I'm female. I'm assumed to be smuggling drugs, partially because I travel light and partially because I have blue hair.
  - nicolas_t 10y ago
    When I had long hairs and was in my 20s, I used to systematically have my baggage searched whenever I came to Asia (especially in Japan). Now that I'm in my thirties with short hairs and clean cut, I'm never searched... It seems stupid, I mean potential drug smugglers must know about this and adapt their looks. In the end, it's really just security theater. I would prefer to have long hairs again and just be able to dress whatever way I want but as someone who travels a lot, I ended up having to conform...

clarkmoody 10y ago

...and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. -Declaration of Independence

bigbugbag 10y ago

I'm not sure when was the time you grew up, but this travel situation was already like in the 1990's just a bit less global (less effective spying maybe) and though documented a lot less publicized. When you're not an American citizen, even at the time you could be detained indefinitely in high security prison without being able to tell anyone. The story of the guy to whom it actually happened on the motive that he was involved in importing super nintendo legalish accessory (game genie or disk copier or something along these lines) in a different country should still be floating around. Then there is this guy on whom they pulled gattaca stuff as in vacuuming his laptop keyboard and run the collected dust through lab analysis. This is pre-TSA stuff, so IMHO the travel situation in the US has not really changed in nature, only in scale.

herbst 10y ago

I never understood where this "freedom" comes from. I mean sure you can say whatever you want. Nearly any western country can, with some exceptions. But exactly things like the linked article show how unfree the US is. Everbody is just arguing about their favorite president, or rather the one they hate less. While all that was left of that "freedom" is slowly breaking away. Freedom is so much more than freedom of speech...