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Air travel has become the least dignified means of transportation. Almost everything about it is terrible. Shopping for tickets. Checking in. Security. Waiting.

Air travel has become the least dignified means of transportation. Almost everything about it is terrible. Shopping for tickets. Checking in. Security. Waiting. Boarding the plane and fighting for overhead bin space. Seat dimensions. Lavatories. Literally everything is terrible. The only thing it has going for it is that it makes long distance and overseas travel logistically possible on an acceptable timescale. Given the choice to drive for 8 hours or fly for 2 I always chose to drive. At some point I think concerns for health, safety, and the basic human dignity of having personal space have to come in to play.

umanwizard 10y ago
If you don't care about price then buy business or economy plus tickets. Most people are not software engineers and would prefer to save $50 even if it means a less dignified experience
- overcast 10y ago
  I really don't think most software engineers are flying business class. Any significant distance that would merit it, is SERIOUS money. Even for someone making six figures.
  - ubernostrum 10y ago
    For domestic travel within the US, first class -- especially booked well in advance -- is often surprisingly cheap, and cheap buy-ups are routinely offered, too (for example, I'm looking at a round-trip for about four months from now for a conference I'll attend, and I'm seeing first class offered for about $250 round-trip). International business class is expensive, yes, typically on the order of $8,000 to $10,000 for a round-trip ticket. But international is the only place airlines can get away with charging that kind of fare and have people pay it, so that's what they'll continue to do. And when compared to other things people in software-developer income brackets often spend money on, even that isn't particularly gigantic; it's just all in one go instead of spread out over many small purchases the way, say, use of Uber and Lyft would be.
    - peteretep 10y ago
      > International business class > is expensive, yes, typically > on the order of $8,000 to > $10,000 Nah. My average cost this year has been ~$3,000.
      - rconti 10y ago
        I have a friend who works for Apple and they get dirt cheap business class tickets to China. He says usually around $3000. For a human who has to pay human prices (eg, not a corporate deal), the multiple from coach is much greater. For the purposes of this comment I just Google searched "SFO to Shanghai". The default is Jan 21-Feb 3 (so you're not paying a last-minute-booking penalty). The prices are insanely cheap somehow, but the multiple holds up. $527 economy $1999 premium economy $2853 business $5340 first I would fly premium economy every time if it existed on most airlines and the multiple was 'only' 50%. What normal human can afford 4x the price for a couple more inches of elbow and legroom? It's far greater than the cost of the actual space.
        peteretep 10y ago
        I tend to assume business will be three times the cost of economy; I suspect SFO to Shanghai is a weird route from a price perspective, much like London to NYC; very few landing spots available. I'd also consider Jan 21-Feb 3 to be pretty last minute. AMS-IAD (two airports with good capacity) for the default Google Flight dates show 45k for economy, 99k for PE, and 120k (all INR) for business, all on reasonable airlines > What normal human One that's a True Scotsman only, I'd guess.
    - kuschku 10y ago
      > International business class > is expensive, yes, typically > on the order of $8,000 to > $10,000 The usual roundtrip flight price for flights Germany-Japan (as determined with hundreds of searches on Skyscanner) seems to be: Economy: ~400 GBP Premium Economy: ~1000 GBP Business: ~1300 GBP First: ~3700 GBP So, the "$8000 to $10000" isn’t even in the same ballpark as First class, respectively business class.
    - 10y ago
  - tptacek 10y ago
    All the companies I've worked for have had travel policies where more than N hours airborne meant an automatic upgrade. I don't know how normal it is, but it's not crazy.
    - hueving 10y ago
      Not normal. A typical bay to Asia business class ticket I see is $6k+. At most conferences small talk is around your travel there and everyone else I've talked to from US companies that was a software engineer was lucky to get a bump to economy plus.
    - kasey_junk 10y ago
      I've never worked for a company without this kind of policy. I have worked for companies with strict travel restrictions.
    - overcast 10y ago
      That's fine, and the company I work for has a similar policy, it actually used to be based on just how long a single flight is. Today, you'll get that if you're an executive with serious flight time. With that said, OP did not mention a company shelling out for this, only that the were a software engineer. Which is nonsense.
  - umanwizard 10y ago
    I said "or economy plus"
    - overcast 10y ago
      The difference between business and economy plus is an order or magnitude, at the very least. My statement stands, just because someone is a software engineer, absolutely does not mean they are spending $9000 to fly to Japan business class. 6% of their salary on a single flight is just crazy talk.
- sjwright 10y ago
  As a tall person, I would happily pay 33% more for a seat with 33% more pitch. (Which is a great deal for the airline because I would be paying to haul empty space that weighs nothing, rather than the weight of [human+bags+seat]/3.
  - devdas 10y ago
    The airline would rather be carrying paid for cargo instead of empty space.
    - sjwright 10y ago
      Incorrect. Lifting cargo costs fuel which is one of the largest expenses in commercial aviation. If someone is willing to pay full fare for empty space, that's a great deal.
eigenvalue 10y ago
Try flying first class, it addresses most of those concerns, albeit for a much higher price!
- nemo44x 10y ago
  That's right. If anything flying can be the most dignified way of traveling. I just came back from a trip to Europe and was upgraded so I had access to a lounge with "free" massages, nice food and drinks and then boarded a plane where I had a seat that could be made into a bed and also had a table my wife and I could eat together at. And then enjoy the cheese cart and have a seat at the bar for another cocktail before laying down for a cat nap. The point is airlines are giving people options. Flying is unbelievably cheap if you want it to be but you get what you pay for - a safe flight in a moderately uncomfortable seat. People wanted cheap and they're getting it. I wish more airlines offered more classes of service though. Flying United to Europe you either have crummy economy (exit rows are fine but the service still is poor) or rather expensive first. More options for mid-tier service where you have larger, more comfortable seating and nice food options similar to Virgins "Premium Economy" service which is is quite nice at a reasonable ask for those that find a couple hundred dollars extra worth it. I find it worth it for 8 hour+ flights to have some extra comfort so I feel better when landing.
  - rwc 10y ago
    Premium Economy cabins (better than domestic first class but not as nice as lie-flat business class seats) are coming to both Delta and American international flights in 2017.
    - nemo44x 10y ago
      That sounds excellent. I'm a United person (easiest airport to get to and they dominate it - Delta doesn't even have a terminal. EWR if you're interested) and I'm not sure they do. They are rolling out a new first class service which looks nice but no idea on improving to a Premium Economy cabin. Delta has impressed me lately. I may make the switch and just deal with the extra haul to JFK which is about 20 minutes more for me if United can't or won't improve their lousy, outdated aircraft for international flights to Europe. United does fly nicely outfitted aircraft to Asia and Australia but I don't get out that way nearly as much.
WaxProlix 10y ago
I don't know about 8 hours, but for a lot of semi-local business, I've started taking my car or a train (if available). Even if you have pre-check (and especially if you don't), you're looking at a ~40 minute drive, uber, or public transit ride to the airport, all with their own cost, followed by an hour or more of downtime and further indignity of being corraled and scanned, followed by 30+ minutes of waiting on the tarmac after landing. Then you get to wait to get off the plane. If you were crazy enough to check luggage, add another ~20 for that. Then you're in an airport, not exactly in the city center, without transportation. Get on a shuttle to rent a car or go wait for transit. All told, it's easily 2+ hours on top of your flight. On a train, I get out my laptop, do some work (the wifi is usually free; eat shit, gogoinflight), maybe nap a bit, and arrive in about the same total time. Much nicer.
- flukus 10y ago
  And unlike on a plane you have enough space to actually use your laptop.
  - WaxProlix 10y ago
    Totally - there are actual tables, and trains are seldom as packed as planes consistently tend to be.
- nemo44x 10y ago
  I live in NYC and whenever I go to DC I always take the train. It's about the same time as flying but with less chances of delays. I flew once and was delayed for 8 hours and have taken the train ever since. I drove once but that was slightly slower than the train and not as relaxing as sitting back with a drink and a laptop. To Boston though I usually fly. It is actually much faster if you leave at the right times to avoid traffic which you'd want to do if driving too. It's about 100% faster in my experience. I drove to Chicago once and that was about 12 or 13 hours. I've flown a bunch of times and it takes, door to door (depending on when you leave, etc) about 4 hours total. So it's much faster.
  - 10y ago
ams6110 10y ago
I am the same. I've got a ~10 hour drive later this week and I never even seriously thought about flying. Much rather take my own car, even if door-to-door is a few hours more. When we someday have fully-autonomous cars I predict a vast collapse in short-mid haul air travel.
Swizec 10y ago
This is not a solution for almost anyone, but I've found that flying is the one thing where being 5ft2 is really extremely very beneficial. Makes flying totally awesome. Even economy plus is weird because it just means I can't reach the touch screen without leaning forward :D You can solve most of the other problems by being super late to your flight. Cuts the waiting and queuing but does mean you have to check your bags. Often this is okay or even preferable because less stuff to haul around airport. Oh and noise cancellation headphones have changed my life. You can actually hear the stewardess when they talk to you because your ears aren't worn out from the engine noise. It's amazing! Easily the best $300 I ever spent in terms of improving airplanes.
- TheRealDunkirk 10y ago
  Last time I flew overseas, there was a 5', petite lady next to me. She put her feet in the safety brochure pocket in the seat in front of her, curled up in her seat, and went to sleep for the duration. As a big guy who can't sleep in public, I was SOOOOO jealous.
  - steveklabnik 10y ago
    My partner is much shorter than me, and we fly together a lot; the upgrades matter so much more to me due to the room. First class is almost too big for her, but it's so much nicer for me. Delta's economy plus is big enough to be comfy. Other flights are tolerable, but rough, especially at the frequency I travel.
    - kristianp 10y ago
      I have been upgraded to 1st class only once in my life. Are free upgrades more common in the US than other countries?
      - Swizec 10y ago
        If you have one of those mileage credit cards and put everything including rent on the card, it can go pretty fast. Or if you travel a lot for work.
ryao 10y ago
It could be worse. They could be putting people in boxes and treating them as live cargo. However, that would be an improvement over the alternative of mailing oneself: http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-strangely-successful-history-of-people-mailing-themselves-in-boxes http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-strangely-successfu...
jonny_eh 10y ago
How is driving safer than air travel? Just a quick googling got me this: http://money.cnn.com/2015/05/13/news/economy/train-plane-car-deaths/ http://money.cnn.com/2015/05/13/news/economy/train-plane-car... Cars and trucks: 5.75 deaths per billion miles Commercial air travel: 0.06 deaths per billion miles
- averageweather 10y ago
  I understand this statistic and get why it's often referenced, but how about this question instead? "Per accident, which has higher likelihood of death?" I feel that's what worries people. Ya, per mile traveled its less likely, but per accident I imagine is a much different story.
  - hillz 10y ago
    But that's an inherently wrong way of looking at it. If you're traveling somewhere in a plane vs on the road, you're way more likely to die. Even if you factor own your own human error (but not others').
  - ohwello 10y ago
    "Probability of death conditional on an accident" sounds like a statistic designed to fool people who really just care about the probability of death, preying on a cognitive error.
  - jhall1468 10y ago
    But that statistic is pointless because you're so much more unlikely to get into an accident. It's irrelevant that you're more likely to die in a plane crash than a car crash. By that logic, you should never drive more than 5 miles an hour, because with each mile an hour you increase your speed, you're more likely to be in a fatal accident.
  - Taniwha 10y ago
    you you're saying that people prefer to be maimed more and so would choose driving over flying because there's less chance of them being maimed when they fly? honestly that makes no sense
Gustomaximus 10y ago
Is it really that bad? We're scooting around the world are reasonably affordable prices in what is the most statistically safe way to travel. Sure it could be improved but to say it is such a horrible experience...really? Air travel is wonderful and I feel fortunate to have been lucky enough to see many parts of the world. Big picture - it's bloody brilliant!
- deleted 10y ago
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- ericdykstra 10y ago
  I'm with you. From Tokyo I can go to multiple countries for less than 200 USD round trip. 300 USD and my choices increase to more than 10 countries. And the "cost" outside of that is shuffling around an airport listening to an audiobook for a couple of hours, then a few hours of cramped pleasant conversation with a stranger or mediocre naps or reading a book? It's not the ideal situation, of course, but the last flight I was on I was able to program my first game (shitty breakout clone in Lua and Love2D) from start to finish.
- aembleton 10y ago
  I already posted this further up but I want to add it again as I'm in agreement with you. Some of the fares are really cheap these days. For example a return flight from Manchester to Dublin booked two weeks in advance is £20. That's a journey that can only be done by flying for one hour or driving for two followed by a three hour ferry. Or perhaps even better, a return from Manchester to Nürnberg for ~£30 in 2 hours instead of a 14 hour drive plus ferry. The fuel for that alone (not including the ferry) would cost £170. I just don't understand the complaints! Booking a few months in advance I can get a return trip to the otherside of the world (Australia) for under £700 and get there in less than 24 hours. I find that incredibly cheap and would be mindblowing just 20 years ago.
ajdlinux 10y ago
This seems like a distinctly American problem - admittedly, it's been a very long time since I've been in the US to see it for myself. Here in Australia, I check in on the mobile app, arrive at the airport around 40 minutes before my domestic flight, take 1 minute to walk straight to the automated Qantas Bag Drop point (and there's almost never a queue of more than 1 or 2 other travellers), take around 30 seconds to scan my boarding pass or frequent flyer card, put my (complimentary) checked bag with its RFID baggage tag straight on the machine, 30 seconds later I have my baggage receipt. 1 minute later, I'm on my way through security - I have to take my laptop out of my bag and empty metal from my pockets, but I'm not usually taking off my shoes and there's no LAG restrictions on domestic services. No ID checks either (admittedly a possibility of being stopped for 30 seconds for an "explosives residue" test, though). A minute later, I'm on the other side, and I'm already lining up to buy an only slightly overpriced drink from the cafe. The whole process is quick enough that when you don't have checked luggage, it's absolutely possible to walk in the front of the terminal and see FINAL CALL on the departures screen, and still make it to the gate in time. The seat dimensions on domestic aircraft aren't great (and I'm 6'4", so believe me, I know) but it's not really that much more uncomfortable than a car, and it's definitely better than being on a bus for 8 hours. The overhead bin space is way less of a problem when you're on a traditional carrier that unlike the American ones still gives you a complimentary checked bag. And for anyone who suffers from mild motion sickness (like myself), it's way nicer to be in an aircraft and still be able to read a book than to be on the road. I can definitely live with this.
- inopinatus 10y ago
  Seconded. Terrible airlines aren't a problem unique to the US, but my experience of travel with major Australian and Asian airlines is consistently good, whilst with US carriers almost universally dismal as given in the GP.
  - geff82 10y ago
    When I hear American and European airline bosses whining about the harsh competition from the "Gulf" airlines such as Emirates, Qatar Airways or Etihad, a voice in my head always yells "why don't you just try to give their level of customer experience in the first place before begging your government to help you provide abysmal service".
pharrlax 10y ago
It's also become substantially cheaper as fuel prices have tanked over the last few years. Lower fuel costs means budget airlines can compete more aggressively, and major carriers have to lower their own prices to stay competitive. So they have to cut corners other ways to maintain growth. For me, the upside of much cheaper travel beats these downsides. If you travel light and educate yourself about fees, airline travel really isn't so bad.
parennoob 10y ago
> Given the choice to drive for 8 hours or fly for 2 I always chose to drive. Hopefully self-driving or at least largely autonomous cars at an affordable price will make this a no-brainer for everything except trans-oceanic flights. My car has a seat that's more comfortable than any seat I've had on an airplane so far.
barrkel 10y ago
The hollowing out of the middle ground seems to happen in most commoditized markets. Take meat. Used to be you'd go to the butcher for your meat, and you'd get a reasonably good product, from a butcher who knew where the meat came from, probably even the farmer who reared the meat. That was the way almost everybody got their meat, so the fixed overheads of having a butcher shop was spread over a large customer base. Move along a couple of decades. Supermarkets, with their more efficient logistics, eat into the meat trade. Butcher shops almost completely disappear. But supermarket meat goes through a longer supply chain with larger suppliers that have the efficiencies of scale to cope with the pricing power supermarkets have. The butcher shops that survive turn into boutiques, where their unique selling proposition is what used to be commonplace: that they know where the meat is coming from and probably know the farmer that reared it. The market bifurcates into two basic strategies, low price and high quality (see also Porter's Cost Leadership and Differentiation). The consumer who's willing to pay a little bit more for a little bit more quality ends up having to pay a lot more rather than a little bit more, because the pool of people who could spread the fixed costs of the higher quality is split - most go for the lowest priced product. There's a ratchet effect, where slightly higher quality products are, at the margin, increasingly expensive because there's no scale in that strategy: the more expensive they become the less uptake they get, which means they have less scale, which means they become more expensive. In some ways it's a collective action problem: what would be a better outcome for a large group of people can't really occur because individual actions can't sustain a stable state change. In other ways - many, if not most economists believe this - it's a better outcome overall, because more people get to use the bargain basement product. But I think people in the middle are usually worse off in commoditized markets.
- myowncrapulence 10y ago
  You just described the entire American Economy.
  - devoply 10y ago
    Funny thing is this also describes the job market. Very low wages at the bottom, not even enough to sustain a living, nothing in the middle, high wages at the top. Hollowing out of the middle. All a result of supposed efficiency, but really it's just externalities pushed onto the employees. It's not as if they can afford it, they have no choice.
zzalpha 10y ago
The reality is all of those issues you mention are largely alleviated for frequent fliers, and I don't think that's a surprise given the revenues they generate. When I fly I get a free upgrade to economy plus (it ain't much but the extra legroom is nice) and occasional upgrades to first class, a free check bag, priority boarding, and priority security. And that's only with basic status. Checking in online and packing only carry-on means I can breeze through pretty quickly. Add a trusted traveler program and it's almost like flying 20 years ago. My guess is the goal of airlines is to encourage frequent flier loyalty by making conveniences a part of the status benefits, and then squeeze the occasional travellers for more dollars at the same time.
- realityking 10y ago
  Interestingly this is very US specific. the big European legacy carriers have way worse frequent flyer programs. Living in Germany, the obvious choice of FFP would be Lufthansa where status is incredibly hard to obtain without flying Business or First and then the benefits are small then with US programs - for example no complimentary updates. Lufthansa rather flies an empty Business cabin then upgrading someone. (With the exception that you get domestic lounge access too)
dx034 10y ago
Seems to be very different in Europe. Here, I can book flights with basically any app online, fares are usually very competitive (cheaper than train/car mostly) and I can arrive at the airport 1hr before take-off. Even small airports that only serve no-frills airlines tend to be very nice by now (e.g. London Stansted). And I even like to fly Ryanair, the service isn't great but they're basically always on time and boarding/de-boarding is much faster than with other airlines (don't understand why only no-frills airlines use both doors for boarding). Don't need food&drinks for a 1-2hr flight, and leg room is enough for me for that time. I don't really know where ticket prices in the US come from. I often find cheaper fares (for the same distance) in Europe than the US, even with airlines offering free alcohol on board and lounges that are way better than what you find in the US (domestic lounges in the US are laughable).
- telesilla 10y ago
  I am continually frustrated with how European trains are more expensive than flying. I remember taking a lot more trains 20 years ago and I miss that. I need to do a lot of travel the next weeks and I also have a lot of reading to get done, and would give anything to be able to afford the 3x times prices of trains, but alas I'll be flying because it's a 75€ flight vs 150€ fast train. Of course there is always the 15€ night bus but I can't handle 12 hours without being able to stand up and stretch at will, which even at least a long-haul jet allows.
  - bkor 10y ago
    Not only are they more expensive, sometimes you pay about the same for the train as the entire flight. It costs me 40 EUR to go by train to a cheap airport. That airport has flights around that price! As a result, I do not usually fly from there (the 40 EUR plus additional time involved). I always take into account the cost of going to the airport; the far away cheap airport often loses out (as saving e.g. 10 EUR isn't worth the hassle). Going anywhere further than just the airport by train is expensive. I try to take the bus until 2.5 hour trips. After that I try to avoid unless you can fly. Pretty ridiculous!
    - 10y ago
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coldtea 10y ago
>Literally everything is terrible. The only thing it has going for it is that it makes long distance and overseas travel logistically possible on an acceptable timescale. Yeah, just that. Merely taking like 7 hours to get from the US to Europe sitting on a chair in the sky and being fed -- as opposed to a trip that used to take months or weeks, people got sick and/or died in the way, and unless you were rich you were getting terrible food (or what you brought yourself) and bunk beds. >and the basic human dignity of having personal space Immigrants from Europe towards the US / Ellis Island: http://www.amicidicapracotta.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/immigrant-ship-deck-.jpg http://www.amicidicapracotta.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/...
- bkor 10y ago
  It used to be worse is not really a good argument. If you use this reasoning the current state is good. Without being able to question the current state, improvements will be limited or none. Not accepting the current state of things is a good way to improve things. Instead of comparing to the past, compare it to other regions. One commenter compared USA to Europe and said USA is significantly worse, irrespective of how things were loads of years ago.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >It used to be worse is not really a good argument. If you use this reasoning the current state is good. Without being able to question the current state, improvements will be limited or none. The other side of this is that without seeing things in perspective we might not appreciate the huge improvements that went into it. And we might even lament for "first world problems" making mountains out of molehills, or take everything for granted...
- mfukar 10y ago
  GP is not comparing to pre-airplane travel, why are you?
  - coldtea 10y ago
    For one, because I'm not restricted in my argumentation to what the GP compared. But, more precisely, because I found the kind GP's lamentations over the top when speaking of modern air travel, and think that it would only be justified if GP was indeed speaking about pre-airplane travel.
Steeeve 10y ago
That's exactly my threshold. 30 minutes to wake up/get ready, 1 hour to the airport, arrive 90 minutes early, 30 minutes to de-board, 30 minutes for luggage/rental car and I'm at 4 hours on top of flight time. Most of that time I'm bothered by what I'm being put through - whether it's a TSA line, one of several airline lines, poor customer service, overpriced ... everything, and the general unhealthy atmosphere I'd happily commit an additional 2 hours to the drive. I get to be in my own car and avoid all kinds of frustration in favor of zoning out on music I enjoy.
BeetleB 10y ago
>Shopping for tickets. Checking in. Security. Waiting. Boarding the plane and fighting for overhead bin space. Seat dimensions. Lavatories. Literally everything is terrible. I've been flying for over 30 years. Shopping for tickets is easier. Before you had to go to a travel agency or wait in line at the airport. Now you just buy online. Checking in has gotten a lot better. The last so many times I flew, I did not even have a wait. Go to the kiosk, get your tickets, and not even a wait to go to a person and have them checked in. Fighting for overhead bin space is the same. Seat dimensions are roughly the same. Lavatories are the same. Only security lines has gotten worse.
- rconti 10y ago
  Seat width is shrinking. Legroom is shrinking. Fighting for overhead space is indisputably worse since airlines mostly abandoned free checked bags. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/29/travel/shrinking-airline-seats.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/29/travel/shrinking-airline-s...

umanwizard 10y ago

If you don't care about price then buy business or economy plus tickets. Most people are not software engineers and would prefer to save $50 even if it means a less dignified experience

overcast 10y ago
I really don't think most software engineers are flying business class. Any significant distance that would merit it, is SERIOUS money. Even for someone making six figures.
- ubernostrum 10y ago
  For domestic travel within the US, first class -- especially booked well in advance -- is often surprisingly cheap, and cheap buy-ups are routinely offered, too (for example, I'm looking at a round-trip for about four months from now for a conference I'll attend, and I'm seeing first class offered for about $250 round-trip). International business class is expensive, yes, typically on the order of $8,000 to $10,000 for a round-trip ticket. But international is the only place airlines can get away with charging that kind of fare and have people pay it, so that's what they'll continue to do. And when compared to other things people in software-developer income brackets often spend money on, even that isn't particularly gigantic; it's just all in one go instead of spread out over many small purchases the way, say, use of Uber and Lyft would be.
  - peteretep 10y ago
    > International business class > is expensive, yes, typically > on the order of $8,000 to > $10,000 Nah. My average cost this year has been ~$3,000.
    - rconti 10y ago
      I have a friend who works for Apple and they get dirt cheap business class tickets to China. He says usually around $3000. For a human who has to pay human prices (eg, not a corporate deal), the multiple from coach is much greater. For the purposes of this comment I just Google searched "SFO to Shanghai". The default is Jan 21-Feb 3 (so you're not paying a last-minute-booking penalty). The prices are insanely cheap somehow, but the multiple holds up. $527 economy $1999 premium economy $2853 business $5340 first I would fly premium economy every time if it existed on most airlines and the multiple was 'only' 50%. What normal human can afford 4x the price for a couple more inches of elbow and legroom? It's far greater than the cost of the actual space.
      - peteretep 10y ago
        I tend to assume business will be three times the cost of economy; I suspect SFO to Shanghai is a weird route from a price perspective, much like London to NYC; very few landing spots available. I'd also consider Jan 21-Feb 3 to be pretty last minute. AMS-IAD (two airports with good capacity) for the default Google Flight dates show 45k for economy, 99k for PE, and 120k (all INR) for business, all on reasonable airlines > What normal human One that's a True Scotsman only, I'd guess.
  - kuschku 10y ago
    > International business class > is expensive, yes, typically > on the order of $8,000 to > $10,000 The usual roundtrip flight price for flights Germany-Japan (as determined with hundreds of searches on Skyscanner) seems to be: Economy: ~400 GBP Premium Economy: ~1000 GBP Business: ~1300 GBP First: ~3700 GBP So, the "$8000 to $10000" isn’t even in the same ballpark as First class, respectively business class.
  - 10y ago
- tptacek 10y ago
  All the companies I've worked for have had travel policies where more than N hours airborne meant an automatic upgrade. I don't know how normal it is, but it's not crazy.
  - hueving 10y ago
    Not normal. A typical bay to Asia business class ticket I see is $6k+. At most conferences small talk is around your travel there and everyone else I've talked to from US companies that was a software engineer was lucky to get a bump to economy plus.
  - kasey_junk 10y ago
    I've never worked for a company without this kind of policy. I have worked for companies with strict travel restrictions.
  - overcast 10y ago
    That's fine, and the company I work for has a similar policy, it actually used to be based on just how long a single flight is. Today, you'll get that if you're an executive with serious flight time. With that said, OP did not mention a company shelling out for this, only that the were a software engineer. Which is nonsense.
- umanwizard 10y ago
  I said "or economy plus"
  - overcast 10y ago
    The difference between business and economy plus is an order or magnitude, at the very least. My statement stands, just because someone is a software engineer, absolutely does not mean they are spending $9000 to fly to Japan business class. 6% of their salary on a single flight is just crazy talk.
sjwright 10y ago
As a tall person, I would happily pay 33% more for a seat with 33% more pitch. (Which is a great deal for the airline because I would be paying to haul empty space that weighs nothing, rather than the weight of [human+bags+seat]/3.
- devdas 10y ago
  The airline would rather be carrying paid for cargo instead of empty space.
  - sjwright 10y ago
    Incorrect. Lifting cargo costs fuel which is one of the largest expenses in commercial aviation. If someone is willing to pay full fare for empty space, that's a great deal.

eigenvalue 10y ago

Try flying first class, it addresses most of those concerns, albeit for a much higher price!

nemo44x 10y ago
That's right. If anything flying can be the most dignified way of traveling. I just came back from a trip to Europe and was upgraded so I had access to a lounge with "free" massages, nice food and drinks and then boarded a plane where I had a seat that could be made into a bed and also had a table my wife and I could eat together at. And then enjoy the cheese cart and have a seat at the bar for another cocktail before laying down for a cat nap. The point is airlines are giving people options. Flying is unbelievably cheap if you want it to be but you get what you pay for - a safe flight in a moderately uncomfortable seat. People wanted cheap and they're getting it. I wish more airlines offered more classes of service though. Flying United to Europe you either have crummy economy (exit rows are fine but the service still is poor) or rather expensive first. More options for mid-tier service where you have larger, more comfortable seating and nice food options similar to Virgins "Premium Economy" service which is is quite nice at a reasonable ask for those that find a couple hundred dollars extra worth it. I find it worth it for 8 hour+ flights to have some extra comfort so I feel better when landing.
- rwc 10y ago
  Premium Economy cabins (better than domestic first class but not as nice as lie-flat business class seats) are coming to both Delta and American international flights in 2017.
  - nemo44x 10y ago
    That sounds excellent. I'm a United person (easiest airport to get to and they dominate it - Delta doesn't even have a terminal. EWR if you're interested) and I'm not sure they do. They are rolling out a new first class service which looks nice but no idea on improving to a Premium Economy cabin. Delta has impressed me lately. I may make the switch and just deal with the extra haul to JFK which is about 20 minutes more for me if United can't or won't improve their lousy, outdated aircraft for international flights to Europe. United does fly nicely outfitted aircraft to Asia and Australia but I don't get out that way nearly as much.

WaxProlix 10y ago

I don't know about 8 hours, but for a lot of semi-local business, I've started taking my car or a train (if available). Even if you have pre-check (and especially if you don't), you're looking at a ~40 minute drive, uber, or public transit ride to the airport, all with their own cost, followed by an hour or more of downtime and further indignity of being corraled and scanned, followed by 30+ minutes of waiting on the tarmac after landing. Then you get to wait to get off the plane. If you were crazy enough to check luggage, add another ~20 for that. Then you're in an airport, not exactly in the city center, without transportation. Get on a shuttle to rent a car or go wait for transit. All told, it's easily 2+ hours on top of your flight. On a train, I get out my laptop, do some work (the wifi is usually free; eat shit, gogoinflight), maybe nap a bit, and arrive in about the same total time. Much nicer.

flukus 10y ago
And unlike on a plane you have enough space to actually use your laptop.
- WaxProlix 10y ago
  Totally - there are actual tables, and trains are seldom as packed as planes consistently tend to be.
nemo44x 10y ago
I live in NYC and whenever I go to DC I always take the train. It's about the same time as flying but with less chances of delays. I flew once and was delayed for 8 hours and have taken the train ever since. I drove once but that was slightly slower than the train and not as relaxing as sitting back with a drink and a laptop. To Boston though I usually fly. It is actually much faster if you leave at the right times to avoid traffic which you'd want to do if driving too. It's about 100% faster in my experience. I drove to Chicago once and that was about 12 or 13 hours. I've flown a bunch of times and it takes, door to door (depending on when you leave, etc) about 4 hours total. So it's much faster.
- 10y ago

ams6110 10y ago

I am the same. I've got a ~10 hour drive later this week and I never even seriously thought about flying. Much rather take my own car, even if door-to-door is a few hours more. When we someday have fully-autonomous cars I predict a vast collapse in short-mid haul air travel.

Swizec 10y ago

This is not a solution for almost anyone, but I've found that flying is the one thing where being 5ft2 is really extremely very beneficial. Makes flying totally awesome. Even economy plus is weird because it just means I can't reach the touch screen without leaning forward :D You can solve most of the other problems by being super late to your flight. Cuts the waiting and queuing but does mean you have to check your bags. Often this is okay or even preferable because less stuff to haul around airport. Oh and noise cancellation headphones have changed my life. You can actually hear the stewardess when they talk to you because your ears aren't worn out from the engine noise. It's amazing! Easily the best $300 I ever spent in terms of improving airplanes.

TheRealDunkirk 10y ago
Last time I flew overseas, there was a 5', petite lady next to me. She put her feet in the safety brochure pocket in the seat in front of her, curled up in her seat, and went to sleep for the duration. As a big guy who can't sleep in public, I was SOOOOO jealous.
- steveklabnik 10y ago
  My partner is much shorter than me, and we fly together a lot; the upgrades matter so much more to me due to the room. First class is almost too big for her, but it's so much nicer for me. Delta's economy plus is big enough to be comfy. Other flights are tolerable, but rough, especially at the frequency I travel.
  - kristianp 10y ago
    I have been upgraded to 1st class only once in my life. Are free upgrades more common in the US than other countries?
    - Swizec 10y ago
      If you have one of those mileage credit cards and put everything including rent on the card, it can go pretty fast. Or if you travel a lot for work.

ryao 10y ago

It could be worse. They could be putting people in boxes and treating them as live cargo. However, that would be an improvement over the alternative of mailing oneself: http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-strangely-successful-history-of-people-mailing-themselves-in-boxes http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-strangely-successfu...

jonny_eh 10y ago

How is driving safer than air travel? Just a quick googling got me this: http://money.cnn.com/2015/05/13/news/economy/train-plane-car-deaths/ http://money.cnn.com/2015/05/13/news/economy/train-plane-car... Cars and trucks: 5.75 deaths per billion miles Commercial air travel: 0.06 deaths per billion miles

averageweather 10y ago
I understand this statistic and get why it's often referenced, but how about this question instead? "Per accident, which has higher likelihood of death?" I feel that's what worries people. Ya, per mile traveled its less likely, but per accident I imagine is a much different story.
- hillz 10y ago
  But that's an inherently wrong way of looking at it. If you're traveling somewhere in a plane vs on the road, you're way more likely to die. Even if you factor own your own human error (but not others').
- ohwello 10y ago
  "Probability of death conditional on an accident" sounds like a statistic designed to fool people who really just care about the probability of death, preying on a cognitive error.
- jhall1468 10y ago
  But that statistic is pointless because you're so much more unlikely to get into an accident. It's irrelevant that you're more likely to die in a plane crash than a car crash. By that logic, you should never drive more than 5 miles an hour, because with each mile an hour you increase your speed, you're more likely to be in a fatal accident.
- Taniwha 10y ago
  you you're saying that people prefer to be maimed more and so would choose driving over flying because there's less chance of them being maimed when they fly? honestly that makes no sense

Gustomaximus 10y ago

Is it really that bad? We're scooting around the world are reasonably affordable prices in what is the most statistically safe way to travel. Sure it could be improved but to say it is such a horrible experience...really? Air travel is wonderful and I feel fortunate to have been lucky enough to see many parts of the world. Big picture - it's bloody brilliant!

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ericdykstra 10y ago
I'm with you. From Tokyo I can go to multiple countries for less than 200 USD round trip. 300 USD and my choices increase to more than 10 countries. And the "cost" outside of that is shuffling around an airport listening to an audiobook for a couple of hours, then a few hours of cramped pleasant conversation with a stranger or mediocre naps or reading a book? It's not the ideal situation, of course, but the last flight I was on I was able to program my first game (shitty breakout clone in Lua and Love2D) from start to finish.
aembleton 10y ago
I already posted this further up but I want to add it again as I'm in agreement with you. Some of the fares are really cheap these days. For example a return flight from Manchester to Dublin booked two weeks in advance is £20. That's a journey that can only be done by flying for one hour or driving for two followed by a three hour ferry. Or perhaps even better, a return from Manchester to Nürnberg for ~£30 in 2 hours instead of a 14 hour drive plus ferry. The fuel for that alone (not including the ferry) would cost £170. I just don't understand the complaints! Booking a few months in advance I can get a return trip to the otherside of the world (Australia) for under £700 and get there in less than 24 hours. I find that incredibly cheap and would be mindblowing just 20 years ago.

ajdlinux 10y ago

This seems like a distinctly American problem - admittedly, it's been a very long time since I've been in the US to see it for myself. Here in Australia, I check in on the mobile app, arrive at the airport around 40 minutes before my domestic flight, take 1 minute to walk straight to the automated Qantas Bag Drop point (and there's almost never a queue of more than 1 or 2 other travellers), take around 30 seconds to scan my boarding pass or frequent flyer card, put my (complimentary) checked bag with its RFID baggage tag straight on the machine, 30 seconds later I have my baggage receipt. 1 minute later, I'm on my way through security - I have to take my laptop out of my bag and empty metal from my pockets, but I'm not usually taking off my shoes and there's no LAG restrictions on domestic services. No ID checks either (admittedly a possibility of being stopped for 30 seconds for an "explosives residue" test, though). A minute later, I'm on the other side, and I'm already lining up to buy an only slightly overpriced drink from the cafe. The whole process is quick enough that when you don't have checked luggage, it's absolutely possible to walk in the front of the terminal and see FINAL CALL on the departures screen, and still make it to the gate in time. The seat dimensions on domestic aircraft aren't great (and I'm 6'4", so believe me, I know) but it's not really that much more uncomfortable than a car, and it's definitely better than being on a bus for 8 hours. The overhead bin space is way less of a problem when you're on a traditional carrier that unlike the American ones still gives you a complimentary checked bag. And for anyone who suffers from mild motion sickness (like myself), it's way nicer to be in an aircraft and still be able to read a book than to be on the road. I can definitely live with this.

inopinatus 10y ago
Seconded. Terrible airlines aren't a problem unique to the US, but my experience of travel with major Australian and Asian airlines is consistently good, whilst with US carriers almost universally dismal as given in the GP.
- geff82 10y ago
  When I hear American and European airline bosses whining about the harsh competition from the "Gulf" airlines such as Emirates, Qatar Airways or Etihad, a voice in my head always yells "why don't you just try to give their level of customer experience in the first place before begging your government to help you provide abysmal service".

pharrlax 10y ago

It's also become substantially cheaper as fuel prices have tanked over the last few years. Lower fuel costs means budget airlines can compete more aggressively, and major carriers have to lower their own prices to stay competitive. So they have to cut corners other ways to maintain growth. For me, the upside of much cheaper travel beats these downsides. If you travel light and educate yourself about fees, airline travel really isn't so bad.

parennoob 10y ago

> Given the choice to drive for 8 hours or fly for 2 I always chose to drive. Hopefully self-driving or at least largely autonomous cars at an affordable price will make this a no-brainer for everything except trans-oceanic flights. My car has a seat that's more comfortable than any seat I've had on an airplane so far.

barrkel 10y ago

The hollowing out of the middle ground seems to happen in most commoditized markets. Take meat. Used to be you'd go to the butcher for your meat, and you'd get a reasonably good product, from a butcher who knew where the meat came from, probably even the farmer who reared the meat. That was the way almost everybody got their meat, so the fixed overheads of having a butcher shop was spread over a large customer base. Move along a couple of decades. Supermarkets, with their more efficient logistics, eat into the meat trade. Butcher shops almost completely disappear. But supermarket meat goes through a longer supply chain with larger suppliers that have the efficiencies of scale to cope with the pricing power supermarkets have. The butcher shops that survive turn into boutiques, where their unique selling proposition is what used to be commonplace: that they know where the meat is coming from and probably know the farmer that reared it. The market bifurcates into two basic strategies, low price and high quality (see also Porter's Cost Leadership and Differentiation). The consumer who's willing to pay a little bit more for a little bit more quality ends up having to pay a lot more rather than a little bit more, because the pool of people who could spread the fixed costs of the higher quality is split - most go for the lowest priced product. There's a ratchet effect, where slightly higher quality products are, at the margin, increasingly expensive because there's no scale in that strategy: the more expensive they become the less uptake they get, which means they have less scale, which means they become more expensive. In some ways it's a collective action problem: what would be a better outcome for a large group of people can't really occur because individual actions can't sustain a stable state change. In other ways - many, if not most economists believe this - it's a better outcome overall, because more people get to use the bargain basement product. But I think people in the middle are usually worse off in commoditized markets.

myowncrapulence 10y ago
You just described the entire American Economy.
- devoply 10y ago
  Funny thing is this also describes the job market. Very low wages at the bottom, not even enough to sustain a living, nothing in the middle, high wages at the top. Hollowing out of the middle. All a result of supposed efficiency, but really it's just externalities pushed onto the employees. It's not as if they can afford it, they have no choice.

zzalpha 10y ago

The reality is all of those issues you mention are largely alleviated for frequent fliers, and I don't think that's a surprise given the revenues they generate. When I fly I get a free upgrade to economy plus (it ain't much but the extra legroom is nice) and occasional upgrades to first class, a free check bag, priority boarding, and priority security. And that's only with basic status. Checking in online and packing only carry-on means I can breeze through pretty quickly. Add a trusted traveler program and it's almost like flying 20 years ago. My guess is the goal of airlines is to encourage frequent flier loyalty by making conveniences a part of the status benefits, and then squeeze the occasional travellers for more dollars at the same time.

realityking 10y ago
Interestingly this is very US specific. the big European legacy carriers have way worse frequent flyer programs. Living in Germany, the obvious choice of FFP would be Lufthansa where status is incredibly hard to obtain without flying Business or First and then the benefits are small then with US programs - for example no complimentary updates. Lufthansa rather flies an empty Business cabin then upgrading someone. (With the exception that you get domestic lounge access too)

dx034 10y ago

Seems to be very different in Europe. Here, I can book flights with basically any app online, fares are usually very competitive (cheaper than train/car mostly) and I can arrive at the airport 1hr before take-off. Even small airports that only serve no-frills airlines tend to be very nice by now (e.g. London Stansted). And I even like to fly Ryanair, the service isn't great but they're basically always on time and boarding/de-boarding is much faster than with other airlines (don't understand why only no-frills airlines use both doors for boarding). Don't need food&drinks for a 1-2hr flight, and leg room is enough for me for that time. I don't really know where ticket prices in the US come from. I often find cheaper fares (for the same distance) in Europe than the US, even with airlines offering free alcohol on board and lounges that are way better than what you find in the US (domestic lounges in the US are laughable).

telesilla 10y ago
I am continually frustrated with how European trains are more expensive than flying. I remember taking a lot more trains 20 years ago and I miss that. I need to do a lot of travel the next weeks and I also have a lot of reading to get done, and would give anything to be able to afford the 3x times prices of trains, but alas I'll be flying because it's a 75€ flight vs 150€ fast train. Of course there is always the 15€ night bus but I can't handle 12 hours without being able to stand up and stretch at will, which even at least a long-haul jet allows.
- bkor 10y ago
  Not only are they more expensive, sometimes you pay about the same for the train as the entire flight. It costs me 40 EUR to go by train to a cheap airport. That airport has flights around that price! As a result, I do not usually fly from there (the 40 EUR plus additional time involved). I always take into account the cost of going to the airport; the far away cheap airport often loses out (as saving e.g. 10 EUR isn't worth the hassle). Going anywhere further than just the airport by train is expensive. I try to take the bus until 2.5 hour trips. After that I try to avoid unless you can fly. Pretty ridiculous!
  - 10y ago

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coldtea 10y ago

>Literally everything is terrible. The only thing it has going for it is that it makes long distance and overseas travel logistically possible on an acceptable timescale. Yeah, just that. Merely taking like 7 hours to get from the US to Europe sitting on a chair in the sky and being fed -- as opposed to a trip that used to take months or weeks, people got sick and/or died in the way, and unless you were rich you were getting terrible food (or what you brought yourself) and bunk beds. >and the basic human dignity of having personal space Immigrants from Europe towards the US / Ellis Island: http://www.amicidicapracotta.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/immigrant-ship-deck-.jpg http://www.amicidicapracotta.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/...

bkor 10y ago
It used to be worse is not really a good argument. If you use this reasoning the current state is good. Without being able to question the current state, improvements will be limited or none. Not accepting the current state of things is a good way to improve things. Instead of comparing to the past, compare it to other regions. One commenter compared USA to Europe and said USA is significantly worse, irrespective of how things were loads of years ago.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >It used to be worse is not really a good argument. If you use this reasoning the current state is good. Without being able to question the current state, improvements will be limited or none. The other side of this is that without seeing things in perspective we might not appreciate the huge improvements that went into it. And we might even lament for "first world problems" making mountains out of molehills, or take everything for granted...
mfukar 10y ago
GP is not comparing to pre-airplane travel, why are you?
- coldtea 10y ago
  For one, because I'm not restricted in my argumentation to what the GP compared. But, more precisely, because I found the kind GP's lamentations over the top when speaking of modern air travel, and think that it would only be justified if GP was indeed speaking about pre-airplane travel.

Steeeve 10y ago

That's exactly my threshold. 30 minutes to wake up/get ready, 1 hour to the airport, arrive 90 minutes early, 30 minutes to de-board, 30 minutes for luggage/rental car and I'm at 4 hours on top of flight time. Most of that time I'm bothered by what I'm being put through - whether it's a TSA line, one of several airline lines, poor customer service, overpriced ... everything, and the general unhealthy atmosphere I'd happily commit an additional 2 hours to the drive. I get to be in my own car and avoid all kinds of frustration in favor of zoning out on music I enjoy.

BeetleB 10y ago

>Shopping for tickets. Checking in. Security. Waiting. Boarding the plane and fighting for overhead bin space. Seat dimensions. Lavatories. Literally everything is terrible. I've been flying for over 30 years. Shopping for tickets is easier. Before you had to go to a travel agency or wait in line at the airport. Now you just buy online. Checking in has gotten a lot better. The last so many times I flew, I did not even have a wait. Go to the kiosk, get your tickets, and not even a wait to go to a person and have them checked in. Fighting for overhead bin space is the same. Seat dimensions are roughly the same. Lavatories are the same. Only security lines has gotten worse.

rconti 10y ago
Seat width is shrinking. Legroom is shrinking. Fighting for overhead space is indisputably worse since airlines mostly abandoned free checked bags. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/29/travel/shrinking-airline-seats.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/29/travel/shrinking-airline-s...