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Ask HN: Thinking of moving to Europe from USA

161 points by alexhakawy 10y ago

Not sure where to begin I am a US Citizen not a felon but wondering what I can do or the process to get started in moving to Europe? what's it like out there comparing to America. I want a new life fresh start new faces. I have family in Europe I don't have a degree or anything yet. I know some programming but I plan to live with an aunt out there. No kids no job 26 years of age

neximo64 10y ago
Find a job in your country of choice and get your visa - then move, about as simple as that. If you're looking at a job on the continent make sure you know the local language fluently (not English). It is said that its ok to know English alone but it really isn't. You'll come to the reason that most Europeans in the tech space opt for the US - the compensation factor in Europe is relatively poor.
- pg314 10y ago
  Lower compensation, but better social security (if you manage to get citizenship), better working hours, more holidays. I second learning the local language. That is one of the most important requirements to truly integrate.
  - neximo64 10y ago
    Having gone through the experience myself it depends what you're aiming at. In my opinion, in the tech space in particular the US is a no brainer for the European to move to: If you're aiming at your own startup, Europe is downright awful you control the working hours, holidays and social security. Entrepreneurship is terrible because the culture doesn't adapt well to it. Raising cash is like selling a fridge to eskimos. There is a culture of hitting yourself at failure and extremely conservative risk. Your own parents wont support you in a startup. For a job in tech: In Silicon valley all those things you mentioned are quite easy to come by? Social security, holidays, working hours and even better + a wage which is why the draw is the other way from here.
    - drakonka 10y ago
      This is really interesting, I wonder if Stockholm is for some reason in its own bubble when it comes to startups in the EU. We have so many (funded) startups forming here it's kind of getting crazy (but in a good way). I mostly only hear about new games companies forming as that's the industry I'm in - quite a few people have recently left larger companies in Stockholm to start their own game dev studios. I guess with time we will know how successful they will be, but at least the process of branching off and starting your own studio here seems quite accessible.
  - kgwgk 10y ago
    Social security is mostly independent of citizenship.
  - kwhitefoot 10y ago
    You don't have to be a citizen to get at least some forms of social security in many European/Scandinavian countries. Norway will pay me unemployment if I am made redundant even though I am not a citizen because I have been paying tax here for the last thirty years.
- kwhitefoot 10y ago
  Go first, then learn the language. It will be much easier to learn a language when you are in a country that uses it. Tell all your Anglophile friends and colleagues to speak the local language to you as much as possible and attend evening classes for immigrants (many of whom won't speak English). It's much faster and easier than learning it on your own. I say this from my experience learning Norwegian in Norway which was much less painful and more successful than learning French at school in England even though I had many more hours of formal French instruction.
  - neximo64 10y ago
    You can't easily go first because of the Visa issue, where you need the job first where you need the language first.
colinbartlett 10y ago
You won't exactly get fresh faces, but have you thought about working remotely for an American company from Europe? Many companies are open to this and you can skirt visa issues just traveling as a tourist. This way, you can dip your toes into the locale you're interested in with less commitment and upending.
taway_1212 10y ago
Man, you have a very vauable asset for a tech career - a US Citizenship. I am very envious of folks who have it. The tech career opportunities outside of US are really not that diverse and are heavily scattered across the world - i.e. maybe the rest of the world combined is as interesting tech-wide as US is - but with lower salary and language/immigration barriers (i.e. try job-hopping, over a span of say 5 years, from Germany to New Zealand to China vs NYC to SF to Seattle).
- askmike 10y ago
  > a US Citizenship. I am very envious of folks who have it. Not everyone wants to move to/stay in the US, the world has a lot of beauty. ---- I for one am very happy to live in Europe. But Europe is a very diverse continent so it's an extremely broad question. I've lived in a few places within Europe, traveled through others. But there is still so much hidden for me. If I were to move outside I would probably go to Asia.
  - taway_1212 10y ago
    A lot depends on the kind of career you want to have. If you're happy with staying within the mainstream business/web programming, then Europe does not constrain you that much (except lower salaries, which means less savings, which means retiring later). On the other hand, if you want to go into something niche (compilers, graphics, anything math-based), then US is really the place to be.
    - twic 10y ago
      There's a reasonable amount of graphics and compiler work in the UK - we have ARM, and Imagination Technologies, plus some other boutique local companies, and offices of international companies like Broadcom and IBM (Hursley did a lot of IBM's JVM work, not sure if that's still going).
- dClauzel 10y ago
  > you have a very vauable asset for a tech career - a US Citizenship DAFUQ ? I am a French research in computer science, now working for a company producing and streaming contents on the web. I can assure you that my carrer opportunities — as sysadmin, researcher, or developper — are pretty good in France and in Europe :)
cylinder 10y ago
The New World is better for fresh starts than Europe.
- Noseshine 10y ago
  Source? Not just an opinion please, I mean an actual source - with facts, figures, data. Also, you would have to define what you actually mean by "better" (as well as what "fresh start" really means). Details. What kind of person (with enough relevant details to actually be a useful description) doing what can expect what based on what where exactly (US and Europe are both huge and very diverse places)?
  - cylinder 10y ago
    I'm not obligated to provide a "source." It's called an opinion. If one seeks merely a "fresh start," then just move somewhere else in the USA. If frustrated with the government, politics, culture of the USA, then move to Europe or some other country.
    - Noseshine 10y ago
      With that attitude you can just pipe /dev/random to the comment section. What's the use of your comments if they contain nothing ob substance? Rhetorical question. I think /r/politics on reddit is far better suited for that kind of "discussion" than HN which aims to be of better quality.
- epx 10y ago
  Quite funnny that posts that don't pray as everyone else (eu > us) are being downvoted.
PaulHoule 10y ago
I think Europe is going just as nutty as the states, maybe more. I am betting that the national front wins in France and France drops out; after that the euro collapses and we see a monetary nightmare.
- askmike 10y ago
  I would like to take you on that bet. I also wonder if you have ever been to anywhere in Europe.
  - PaulHoule 10y ago
    I lived in Germany for a year and have spent time in the UK, Netherlands, Austria, Czech Republic, etc. Yes, Europe has architecture where the U.S. has decorated sheds. But the social fault lines in Europe aren't that different from the social fault lines in the states. From day one the pundits have been concerned that effects related to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossible_trinity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossible_trinity would blow up the euro -- i.e. Germany and Italy might have reasons to have different monetary policies. Many economists think the situation is truely intractable (they'd like it if the "Impossible Trinity" was a solid concept) but it certainly is intractable if you don't face the social fault lines head on.
- petre 10y ago
  He can just pick a country outside the EMU: UK, Czech Republic, Sweeden, Denmark, Switzerland, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria. The last ones are in danger of entering the Eurozone, ceding control over their currencies to the EU and possibly getting in trouble like Greece did. Capital is already fleeing out of Europe to the US. I'd say it's a bad move to move to Europe right now, unless it's for college/uni and maybe job prospects afterwards. Although he's going to have a hard time as an American citizen because of silly tax agreements the US has with other countries.
shortsightedsid 10y ago
I recently moved for an year's assignment to Amsterdam. Intercompany transfer. The process has been interesting. The main thing which took time was getting my Birth certificate legalized under The Hague convention a.k.a apostilled. After that it's documentation work which my company lawyer handled. Once I got here it's taken time to get used to the differences but thoroughly enjoy it. Highly recommend it, if you can. The best route has been this - inter company transfer.
drakonka 10y ago
Does the US have a working holiday visa arrangement with Europe? This is how I moved, but I was moving from Australia. Got my Australian citizenship and applied for working holiday visa to Sweden. Visa documentation was emailed to me within a couple of weeks of the application. This allowed me to move with my savings and look for a job on-site. The employer I found then helped me out with the process of applying for my employee visa and residence permit once my working holiday visa was near expiry. If you're a senior dev you may be able to just bypass the "move first" step and get a job remotely with a relocation package. I had experience in my chosen industry but was still considered fairly junior, so moving to the country and applying from there ended up being more productive than looking for a company that would deal with relocating a junior from the other side of the world.
- fulafel 10y ago
  Many (most?) countries will give you a work visa if you have a job offer, and will let you stay if that turns permanent. It's not tied to the US.
  - drakonka 10y ago
    Yes, but I'm not really sure what this has to do with my comment? A Working Holiday visa is not the same as a work visa that you get if you have a job offer. The point of my getting a Working Holiday visa was to move to the country for a substantial amount of time (the visa allows 1 year) and look for work while there instead of trying to convince an employer to hire a junior from overseas. Most EU countries also have restrictions on the employee visas they grant - such as the position having to be advertised within the country (or maybe within the EU) first with some exceptions for very specialist roles, etc. In addition (speaking only for Sweden here) even afterwards it's not as easy as going to the Migration board and going "Well here's my offer, give me a visa!" - the Migration board checks with the relevant union to vet the offer and make sure conditions of employment are suitable. In addition to that queues can be very long, so having the assistance of a larger company that frequently liaises with both the migration board and the unions when applying for a visa can help fast track the entire process.
- deleted 10y ago
raverbashing 10y ago
> what I can do or the process to get started in moving to Europe? Do your homework? Learn a language besides English (maybe?) At least rejoice, European visa processes are usually straightforward (if you have a diploma) and it usually involves much less BS and waits than the corresponding H1-B process
radicalbyte 10y ago
I moved from the UK to The Netherlands a decade ago. It was a fantastic decision. It's nice here, most people speak English (although I learnt the language) and there's a lot of demand for Developers. There are also crazy tax incentives which result in you paying basically 0 tax for the first 5 years. That covers the costs of learning the language (3k EUR and it takes 2 years).
- chatmasta 10y ago
  Can you talk more about those tax incentives?
  - lomereiter 10y ago
    I believe he talks about the 30% ruling: http://www.iamsterdam.com/en/local/official-matters/highly-skilled-migrants/thirty-percent-ruling/30-percent-ruling-indepth http://www.iamsterdam.com/en/local/official-matters/highly-s...
kowdermeister 10y ago
> what's it like out there comparing to America It's totally different country by country. I never been to the US, but I imagine it's much more homogeneous than the EU. For example you can go to Berlin, Barcelona, Milano, Stockholm or Budapest and you can have radically different experiences. It differs radically financially, demographically and attitude wise. I'd suggest to start with a Euro-trip and visit as many countries as you can and then make a "final" choice where to settle.
- 19kuba22 10y ago
  From my experience traveling Europe and America, Europe is much more homogeneous even if languages are different.
  - pepon 10y ago
    No way if by America you mean the US.
    - 19kuba22 10y ago
      I'm referring to the US, though to be honest including Canada wouldn't change much. (Mexico is a whole different story) I know it's not a common opinion, which is why I made clear that it's just my experience. I've been to 19 US states and 15 European countries and I found Arizona to be more different from Pennsylvania than Romania was compared to let's say Spain or Germany.
      - mlent 10y ago
        I'd say it's probably a matter of not having a 'european palate' so to speak. It's like if you give two red wines to someone who doesn't usually drink wine. They'll tell you they taste the same, but to someone who drinks red wine daily, they are totally different. I have traveled the US, and have lived in Europe for several years, and would completely disagree with your assessment.
- tomschlick 10y ago
johnomarkid 10y ago
If you are a programmer/designer you can get a 3 year freelance visa in Berlin, Germany. I currently live in Berlin with that visa. Your standard of living in Europe will vary. Sure, some places offer free healthcare (not exactly free - see taxes), better public transportation, and decent quality food at lower tier supermarkets. That's all great. On the other hand, you'll likely take a huge hit in salary and pay higher taxes. That does make a difference in lifestyle. A personal anecdote: in NYC I paid $2500/month to live alone in a decent apartment in a vibrant area (East Village). That's a lot of money! In Berlin I paid $700/month for an apartment of similar quality, but because salary and taxes are so low, I wasn't able to save nearly as much as I did in NYC paying high rent, a lot of money for quality groceries, etc. There are other benefits of living in Europe like 30 days of vacation, ample maternal/paternal leave, and some financial security if you lose your job. That said, it's harder to get these jobs. Because of the risk companies need to take when hiring new employees (ie paying for all the benefits above), there's currently a huge workforce of temporary employees. Everyone is aiming for the seemingly elusive "permanent contract." I say make the move. You'll learn a lot about the world and yourself. You can always move back to the US. FYI this comes from the perspective of a software engineer turned entrepreneur turned software engineer. Berlin freelance visa: https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/305249/en/ https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/305249/en/
- welder 10y ago
  Good advice, but not having a degree or showing work experience might make it hard to get the freelancer visa. I would also recommend the "preparation for study visa" which gives you two years for taking German language courses and you can always change to the freelancer or work visa before the two years is up. [1] for the OP, without a degree you can still get the work visa if you're hired by a German company. > what's it like out there comparing to America? Main daily difference is you don't need a car. Find a job and go there. You need to experience it yourself to really know what it's like. 1. https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/305156/en/ https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/305156/en/
  - deleted 10y ago
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jankotek 10y ago
Do remote work for US company...
- alexhakawy 10y ago
  I can't find even remote work inside the US lol I know HTML, CSS and basic JS
  - jankotek 10y ago
    Good luck than. Maybe worry about the job, rather than about visa.
  - krapp 10y ago
    Nowadays that's like trying to find work as a mechanic because you know how to change a tire. I know HTML, CSS, JS, C++, C#, PHP and Hack - and I often can't find work because the bar of competence for many programming jobs still requires knowledge of frameworks, libraries and processes that I don't have experience with, and because the freelance market is global. It can be difficult to tick all the boxes and stand out in a crowd of millions.
  - petre 10y ago
    You can study for cheap and get a student visa in Germany, Austria or an ex Eastern Block country, get a job until senior developer there, then work for a US company. Forget Italy. Italy is probably nice to live in, but it's at risk of becoming the next Greece right now. Big problems in the banking sector, 1st country for refugees to enter through along with Greece.
  - snicky 10y ago
    1. Learn something that can help you to do stuff that people are willing to pay for. You already know some webdev, so maybe go ahead and spend a couple of months trying out some frontend frameworks. There are ample amounts of frontend jobs everywhere in US, EU and Asia. 2. Find a remote job in US. Even a junior position with a low salary would allow you to live decently in most European places (maybe except downtown London, etc.). 3. Pick a random European city you might like, get an airbnb and just go there for a while. 4. If you like it, stay. If you don't, pick another city. If you can't make the decision in 3 months, move to a cheap place in Asia and go back when you can. Flights are cheap. Places to stay are cheap. Just lower the bar. You don't have to live in the middle of Paris or London this whole time. 5. Travel a lot and profit. Unless of course your prefer to go through a routine of choosing a single place, finding a job in there, networking, making lots of new friends, etc. There's your tradeoff, but hey, you are 26. [edit: paragraphs]
qz_ 10y ago
Europe is big - not geographically, but culturally. As kowdermeister already said, you'll have _very_ different experiences in different parts of Europe. Amsterdam's culture is very different from Barcelona's culture, which is very different from London's culture. Go on a little trip: for Americans I'd suggest Berlin, Amsterdam, London, Madrid, or anything you're interested in.
- dom0 10y ago
  Europe (the continent) is about the same size as the US, just with twice as many people living in Europe. NA is lots bigger, but a lot of empty space...
wfleming 10y ago
I did this: moved to the U.K. for several years. To echo some of the other excellent comments here, I think the main takeaways should be: 1. Compensation is generally lower than in the US. That's worth keeping in mind depending on your age & long terms plans, if you have those already. Don't let it turn you off from the idea, because living elsewhere can be wonderful, but it's worth being clear that this probably isn't the optimal choice for your bank balance/savings. But it doesn't sound like that's your priority, so that's fine. 2. If the primary reason for the move is a lifestyle change, I agree with others that the best way to do that is figure out where you want to live & then look for jobs there (or freelance/work remotely if that suits you). From my personal experience & seeing friends go through it with various countries, it's usually fairly straightforward & a company that wants to hire you should be able to help out with the process. I'll second Berlin as a really good choice for location: culturally very vibrant & has a rapidly growing tech & art scene. I know several people who have moved there in the last few years. I'll also say I personally loved living in London, and already being fluent in the language has its perks, but that may not be as much of a change as you want. Good luck!
- alexhakawy 10y ago
  freelancing sounds nice but I'm willing to just work out there and start from the bottom to make my way up.
mbroncano 10y ago
EU citizen currently living in the US here. Hugely recommended, if only for comparison purposes. From my own experience, English speaking countries are a must. If that's not an option, cities like Barcelona or Berlin should cover your bases for at least a year, but you won't survive for long without speaking Spanish or German. There are more things than work in life, and you'll soon get tired of only dealing with expats or your own nationals. Please do not fool yourself too early into thinking 'yeah, I'll just learn the thing', unless you have a knack for languages, or you already speak one or two foreign tongues. YMMV though, it is certainly doable if you apply. Scandinavian countries, Ireland or The Netherlands are your best bet these days, and there is a relatively big IT sector in all of them. Salaries are not what you expect coming from the US, your $200k rated job is no more than 80k€, but you will certainly require much less. Saving is possible and encouraged. Edit: grammar
- welder 10y ago
  Second this, besides Berlin I would recommend the northern countries. They speak English natively so it's less of a culture shock. You will pay more for rent and necessities than Berlin but salaries are higher too.
- vram22 10y ago
  >Scandinavian countries All or some of them? e.g. I've read on HN that there is a lot of software work in Sweden, but how about Norway, Finland and Denmark?
  - bjelkeman-again 10y ago
    The tech investments in Sweden are nearly as big as the other three countries together [1]. Most of which goes to Stockholm. [1] As an example, this is for November. http://www.nordictechlist.com/content/reports/The%20November%202016%20NordicTech%20Summary%20Report.pdf http://www.nordictechlist.com/content/reports/The%20November...
    - vram22 10y ago
      Thanks.
fsloth 10y ago
"In Europe" is kinda broad statement. It's like saying moving to americas. Honduras is not Alaska. Where to, exactly?
- alexhakawy 10y ago
  London UK or Italy
  - fsloth 10y ago
    UK for work, Italy for holidays? To my understanding the employment options in Italy generally suck. If someone has better information please revise.
lordnacho 10y ago
That's a big life decision. I've lived in Europe my whole life, but I have a lot of friends and relatives in the US. I've also lived in 3 different European countries, and of course I know people from just about all the Western European nations. There's a lot got you to think about. This is only a small part, off the top of my head: - If you're American, you pay tax worldwide. Most countries have higher tax than the US, so you just pay their tax. Switzerland is different. I lived there, it's a pain as an American to even get a bank account. And you'll have to file a return. A friend of mine is half American and is an accountant. It's annoying for him as well. - Languages. Which do you speak? Most Northern European countries have significant numbers of companies where they speak English. That's not to say you can't learn the language, English is a Germanic language, so not a million miles off German, Dutch, Danish, Swedish, etc. Yet you're not going to understand it getting off the plane. - Social. Are you coming by yourself or are you married? Got kids? It's hard to find documentation for this, but the way one socialises depends a lot on which country you're in, whether you're in the countryside or the city, and whether you have kids or are single. Anecdotally I'd also say some of the Germanic nations have hard-to-penetrate social circles. It's not that they don't like you, they already have their friends and haven't needed to make new ones since college. - Culture shock. I guess you actually want that. But remember you can drop a guy from New York in LA and they will not have a problem at all. Take a guy from Edinburgh to Rome, and they are now a tourist. The plus side is it takes a two hour flight to see something completely different, with different looking people, weather, history, and so on. - Visa. This is going to depend a lot of the specific country. Anyway I'm sure you'll have questions.
- alexhakawy 10y ago
  if I have family there do I still need visa to live with them?
  - robjan 10y ago
    You will unless they are closely related enough to give you citizenship rights. Nationality law is completely different from country to country within Europe, though.
holydude 10y ago
I recommend Prague or Bratislava. You can save a lot and get a job in one of the US corps. People are down to earth. They really like americans and will speak english all the time when you are around.
- rurban 10y ago
  I would also add Wroclaw, Cracow or Warsaw then.
  - holydude 10y ago
    Agreed. Awesome cities. Poles are awesome people as well!
orbz 10y ago
I spent a few years living and working in Europe with EU companies or US subsidies there. The one main gotcha that no one thinks about is the tax and retirement savings side of things, both of which you should probably do. As a US citizen you're obligated to file (and possibly pay) taxes no matter where in the world you work and reside, no exceptions. It's the price of having US citizenship and access to the US embassy. In most cases you probably won't end up paying anything when you declare the tax you paid in your resident country, but that gets complicated with that country having a different tax year than the US (April to April vs calendar year). Get a competent expat attorney and pay for it to be done for you. There's also the FBAR which you might need to become acquainted with. As for the retirement savings, lots of countries have their own types of retirement accounts that can be invested in as part of your paycheck. The caveat here is how to repatriate the funds when you leave before hitting your 60's. I haven't found a great way to roll those over to an IRA back in the states yet.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- Bombthecat 10y ago
  Do you really need to declare that you paid taxes in Germany? Isn't there some sort of agreement?
  - vinay427 10y ago
    As the parent said, you unfortunately need to declare the income as a US citizen but may or may not need to pay taxes on it.
  - mlent 10y ago
    There's ~90k cap. If your foreign-earned income is less than that, you state the tax paid in Germany and don't need to pay for US taxes. If you make more than ~90k, you have to pay taxes for the amount over ~90k.
    - Bombthecat 10y ago
anonymfus 10y ago
>I have family in Europe Then if you specify country where they live may be you will get more specific answers.
- alexhakawy 10y ago
  London UK , and Italy Rome.
  - cav71 10y ago
    The job market in Italy (and Rome) is a very closed circle: hard to get into. Best jobs are in the defence sector but those require clearance.
TamDenholm 10y ago
I dont know the specifics as i'm not a US citizen, but to my knowledge, i think if you earn a wage in another country outside the US, you will have to pay the local taxes and also tax back to the US Gov as well. Someone please correct me or clarify if i'm wrong.
- chillydawg 10y ago
  Most western countries have double taxation treaties with the USA, but there is often a period where you have to temporarily pay the taxes in both places and then get a refund on the US portion, which can be very expensive if poorly timed.
- jaclaz 10y ago
  There is AFAIK an allowance of up to around US$ 100,000 for wages and similar income, BUT you will have to file taxes on both countries, some reference: http://www.expatinfodesk.com/expat-guide/nationality-specific-information/americans/us-tax-liability/ http://www.expatinfodesk.com/expat-guide/nationality-specifi... https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/foreign-earned-income-exclusion https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/fore... In the real world, unless you are a "top notch" executive or programmer, etc. it is not-so-easy to reach that amount with European wages.
alexhakawy 10y ago
made some changes to my post to clear things up. Thanks everyone for the advices.
nothrabannosir 10y ago
Concretely, check out DAFT: the Dutch-American Friendship Treaty. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT The treaty makes it easier for US Entrepreneurs to open businesses in The Netherlands. It lowers the amount of needed investment capital from €27,000 to €4,500, frees US Entrepreneurs from the points-based test, and removes the benefit to Dutch national interests requirement. The residency permit is good for two years, after which it can be extended.
alkonaut 10y ago
Go find out. What are your career plans? Do you want to do websites or work in a bar? How do you value short commutes/cheap living costs vs. high incomes? How do you value high income versus rain or snow? if you haven't visited many places in europe, perhaps you have traveled the US can say e.g. "I'd do anything to get Californian climate, I couldn't stand Minnesota"... With some more info we can give you a hint.
- alexhakawy 10y ago
  Cold weather or hot doesn't matter to me. I enjoy everything. I do want to become a web developer eventually doing remote work but until I learn everything to know about freelance web developing I will work at a bar or warehouse whatever it takes to survive out there. Not sure how the whole Visa thing works or if they'll let me stay there past 90 days I got aunt out there
loxs 10y ago
Prepare to be much worse financially. You will earn less, pay higher taxes (as percentage) and will feel much poorer. Cars, especially nice ones, are much more expensive (in absolute numbers, not only as percentage of income) to buy and own. Petrol is several times the US price. Rents are higher in most cities (at least compared to income). Maybe only SV is worse compared to Europe. All tech gadgets are more expensive, roughly at +20% in absolute terms, because of VAT And yeah, on top of that you get "free" healthcare, which is usually of very questionable quality.
- GavinMcG 10y ago
  Do you have more info to support the "usually of very questionable quality" claim? Edit: corrected "low" to "questionable".
  - loxs 10y ago
    Sorry, I only have my personal experience and that of my family and friends. And I didn't say "low". Usually it's highly bureaucratic - you have to "climb a ladder" of doctors. First your GP, then a specialist, then, maybe a hospital. You wait a lot (sometimes weeks and months, because you are not "emergency"). And sometimes you encounter outright incompetence and have to go to a private doctor/hospital to have your problems properly attended to. That summarizes my experiences with the healthcare systems of 4 different EU countries.
    - tluyben2 10y ago
      What countries? My experiences are excellent in Netherlands & Spain public healthcare. I hear people complain about NHS a lot but never used it so no idea.
      - loxs 10y ago
        Bulgaria, Spain, Denmark, Finland
        10y ago
patrickbuahgiar 10y ago
I think the cheapest European citizenship you can buy is Maltese citizenship for just €650k + 25-50k each for spouse and children. Maltese citizens have visa-free access to 168 countries and territories, thus ranking the Maltese passport 9th in the world (the highest ranking of all the recent new member states of the EU) according to the Visa Restrictions Index. check out http://www.maltaimmigration.com/ http://www.maltaimmigration.com/
- jf271 10y ago
  If you have relatives from Europe look into citizenship via decent. My grandmother was born in Ireland and I was able to acquire Irish citizenship because of that. Now I have dual US/Irish citizenship
  - alexhakawy 10y ago
    wow that's cool I'll have to look into it. Thanks
yawz 10y ago
Any idea what country? I lived in different countries in Europe, and I currently live in the US. I can tell by experience that EU countries differ among each other more significantly than US states.
jfaucett 10y ago
I can only speak for the countries I know about which are Germany, Poland and France. But generally I think these properties hold across Europe as a whole, at least from collegues or friends from other countries whom I've talked to, this might not be the case though so check it out for yourself. So heres the gist of it. You will have a much lower standard of living by most monetary measures. Taxes are higher than in the US and regulations/beurocracy is more extensive. Everything is "smaller" from cars, houses, and land to meals. Energy costs - especially transportation costs - are much higher almost everywhere, which forces you to try to keep your energy consumption low compared to how you would live in the US. There is virtually one sport everywhere and its soccer, so facilities/clubs/organizations for any other sport are far behind US standards. For instance, you will not be able to find anything resembling a YMCA where you can workout with weights, play basketball and racketball and go swimming all for some monthly membership. People all live much closer together, so you won't be able to find a place thats even a little "off the grid" this can be good or bad just depends on what you prefer. On the more positive side, you will have "free" healthcare, but the quality will vary drastically from country to country. In Poland its disastrous for instance whereas in Germany its pretty nice and will cover just about all your health costs and the quality is high as well. France is closer to the Germany side of things but I'd say the overall quality is a bit lower. Also you will rarely if ever work more than 40 hours a week and you'll also get 30 paid vacation days a year from most employers. In Germany, sick days don't count against your vacation days so it all compounds to a pretty big chunk of leisure time. Additionally, there's all kinds of various social welfare programs that will take care of you should you become unemployed or disabled etc. these are extensive and well-funded in Germany and France much less so in Poland. I'm an expat and have lived/worked in Germany for the past 9 years, basically my entire 20s and working life except for freelance web work I did while getting my undergrad in the US.
- alexhakawy 10y ago
  what kinda freelance work did you do
iagooar 10y ago
I assume you want a career as a software engineer. This is my list: - Berlin: cheap (getting expensive quick, but still cheap for a large city), multicultural (many, many people from all around the world, lots of people speak English, those who don't usually understand you), Germans themselves are very open and interesting as a nation. Berlin has a vibrant startup scene, which is nice for getting your first job as a young person with little experience. The downside is that there is not many serious software companies nor industry. Salaries are VERY low compared with the US. German is not required for normal life, but highly recommended. Some companies still prefer people with German. - London: Has many, many companies and is usually on the bleeding edge technology-wise. Payroll is nice, although prices and rent are high. You won't have to learn a new language and will be able to compete for all the job offers as long as your profile fits in. The downside is the imminent Brexit, which might be good or bad, nobody knows right now. - Zurich: once you are +30 and look for a more quiet, stable lifestyle, Switzerland is the place to be. Salaries are US-level, health care, security, public transportation and stability are the best in Europe (Norway might be better though, but very close). It's VERY expensive, although if you come from NY or from the Bay Area, rents are more or less in the same ballpark. The language barrier is comparable as in Germany, although Swiss people usually prefer when people speak English rather than standard German with foreign accent. Swiss people might be a bit tough to crack, but are not that bad once you know how to treat them. In the Zurich area there is tons and tons of companies, lots of innovation going on as well. Finance is very strong. Biotech is growing pretty strong. I have 2 recommendations for you: a) Go to Berlin, and then start looking around. It's a really cool place to be for 26-year-old. b) Go to London, you will have a much easier start and there is enough companies for an adventurous career.
- tbarbugli 10y ago
  I would not suggest Germany or (german) Switzerland to people that don't speak german.
  - raverbashing 10y ago
    Studying another language is part of leaving your comfort zone. People can start with the several apps available today, they don't even need to go to an actual class.
gorbachev 10y ago
What I would do is visit the places you're interested in first without committing to staying. Buy a rail pass and travel from city to city, get a feel of each city for a week or two, network with the people you want to associate with and once you're done, or find something you feel like is exactly what you're looking for start arranging the actual move and getting a job in the city of your choice.
tr1ck5t3r 10y ago
Sounds like you want to go travelling, perhaps you can get some contract work from some of those online contract/freelance sites. You need to decide what your work life balance is to be. If you want to do more soaking up the culture, consider the above option, if you want to do more work and learning then decide what area you want to work in and then look for companies that might present those opportunities. You'll have a mix of costs where ever you go in the world and within a country. I could say lots of jobs in and around Cambridge, and whilst the city is expensive to buy, many students manage the costs of renting shared accomodation, but move outside the city heading anywhere but south towards London and costs can fall. I guess its a case of setting your standards accordingly. You dont say where your Aunt lives either which might also limit your options. Here in the UK you can get on the job training as an apprentice, but I dont know if its restricted to just UK Citizens or people from overseas as well. Perhaps a bit more detail in your Ask HN might help you get more detailed useful info.
bogomipz 10y ago
You can only remain in the Schengen Zone for 90 days every 6 months as a US Citizen. Have you given any thought to your strategy there? Some countries will allow a language learning visa which could help you get some extra time until you get yourself sorted out for work. You don't want to overstay your tourist visa either, as it will likely cause problems for you when you leave and try to come back.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
The first thing you'll need to decide is where you'd like - and if you can go to those places. Most of the time, you'll either need to go to school, work, or marry someone to live there. Some countries have visas for job searching, but it might be difficult without a degree. For the countries you have relatives in, you'll have to check their immigration policies. Generally only close relatives are eligible for family immigration, but there might be exceptions. You might check schooling in those countries as well. Good luck!
bane 10y ago
Europe is great. I have several friends who've made this move. I'd say that they have a higher and more relaxed quality of life at a much lower salary than I know of in the U.S. Salaries are lower, taxes are higher, but I think it balances out well. One thing I've noticed is that if you're willing to live a bit outside of a major city and along a commuter rail line (a commute not extraordinary by U.S. standards but seemingly insane by European), housing costs can be much much lower. With a few exceptions, the kind of tech work will likely be more prosaic in nature. The kind of big startup scene you might find in SV or other places in the U.S. does exist in Europe, but not at anywhere near the scale or with the kind of capital availability that's present in the U.S. On the upside, the work tends to be very stable. Long-term, you'll have to think about retirement and either make a decision to stay or return and start saving up. If you come back to the U.S., the system is designed to offer you a reasonable retirement, but only after decades of saving. You may not think that's important at 26, but you'll likely start to feel it at 36. If you stay in Europe, you'll need to figure out the local retirement system and how that work. If you pull that trigger and stay in Europe, you'll probably want to look at giving up your U.S. citizenship because you'll be obligated to pay taxes the entire time you're in Europe (there's some deductions, but you'll still have to do all the paperwork).
- kbouck 10y ago
  > pension If you move to Europe, build up a pension, and then move back to the U.S., you should be able extract the money from that pension (according to the conditions), regardless of where you reside in there future. > taxes You are obliged to report all of your foreign earnings to the IRS as well as all of your foreign bank account status each year. You are taxed on your income both in the local country and in the US :-/, but the US amount is only on income above a certain threshold. Maybe someone can correct me but I think the current amount is somewhere around $90k USD. Like my parent poster said, there are deductions, so find a good tax adviser that is familiar with both local and US tax laws.
  - afarrell 10y ago
    You can ether use the foreign earned income exclusion (which I think has risen to closer to 100k) or the foreign tax credit. You also want to take extensions so that you can qualify as a nonresident, or you will pay the ACA penalty for not having health insurance.
raarts 10y ago
I'm from Amsterdam, lived in the US recently for 2 years (Atlanta). Salaries are lower in the EU, taxes are higher, rents are lower. On the other hand I found many things to be more expensive in the US : health care, car insurance, education, groceries. I found that in the end it turned out to be more or less the same. What's left is culture shock, which is actually very good for you, broadening your horizon. In Europe everything seems smaller though, that's a real difference. Also architecture has more history. One important advice though, which is true for every country: learn the language!!
poisonarena 10y ago
Sidenote, if you or your mom, happen to be jewish.. You can get a free ticket to Israel, give you citizenship, the government will help you with housing and actually give you money, and hebrew lessons.. They also have a booming tech industry.. I lived there for a couple of years and while not exactly in mainland Europe, it is very European. I currently live in Mexico City and thats also a great non-Euro option !
- EduardoBautista 10y ago
  I currently live in Guadalajara as a freelancer and I am thinking of moving to Mexico City next year if I can convince myself to pay the higher rent. Loved being there and there are areas similar to Brooklyn to give you an idea of what life is like there.
  - poisonarena 10y ago
    convincing myself the same thing, but for Guadalajara!
afarrell 10y ago
I moved US -> UK in July and don't regret it at all. This depended on me getting a tier-2 visa though. This is harder without a degree and programming skill. If you want recommendations for communicative, knowledgeable, & ethical recruiters in London or Dublin, I'd be happy to connect you. My email is in my profile.
Pica_soO 10y ago
German here. Had a friend who studied info scienes. He does the tour- as in traversing the Mediterranean coast (Marroko, Porto,Spain,France,Italy, Austria, the Balkan (the european middle east), Greek, Israel - living in AirBnB Flats, working remote. Great landscape, great climate, tax avoiding if you stay in no country longer then the max-tax time. Con: Sucks if you want a stable live and a family.
simonebrunozzi 10y ago
If you ask on HN, and given you're American, you could start by writing more correctly. Reading your "ask" is a bit annoying, it contains so many grammar mistakes. It shows that you did this quickly and without regard to your audience.
- hiphopyo 10y ago
  It's short and concise spoken American, I don't see what the big deal is
- zzzzz99997 10y ago
  Keep your grammar-nazism to yourself. Reading shit like this is "a bit annoying".
kazinator 10y ago
Note that USA citizens living abroad, no matter for how long, are required to pay USA income tax. The only way out of this parasitic arrangement is to give up your citizenship. The USA charges hefty fees for citizenship renouncement. They know you're doing it for money and want to squeeze something out of you before you get away for good.
- johnomarkid 10y ago
  This is misleading. Income of up to $101,300 is excluded. Also, tax credits are given if the amount you pay in the country you live in is higher than what you would have been paid in the US. Given that a salary of $101k in Europe is unlikely, and that taxes are almost always higher in Europe than the US, you do not need to worry about paying income tax to the US. You do, however, need to file a tax return. I don't support these policies, but I wanted to clarify things for people who could get scared away by your comment. It really isn't that bad. When U.S. Citizens Living Abroad Owe U.S. Tax: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/when-us-citizens-living-abroad-owe-us-tax.html http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/when-us-citizens-livi...
  - futhey 10y ago
    Correct. One thing to remember, the $102,100 Foreign Earned Income Exclusion only applies if you spend 330 days of the tax year abroad or have legal residency in the other country (and even in that case you're not supposed to spend more than a few months residing in the US).
- lobster_johnson 10y ago
  The US has tax agreements with lots of countries that prevent you from being taxed twice on the same income (and for other countries there are still solutions). Plus, you'd only be paying federal-level taxes, since you'd not be a resident of any state. Not sure about social security. Still, it is of course painful. As someone in the reverse situation (foreigner in the US), I had to pay income tax to Norway for the first three years after moving, with US taxes paid being deducted from what I owed. On the other hand, I did not need to pay the Norwegian equivalent of social security; income tax only. (Of course, the Norwegian tax system is also 100% digital, with very simple forms that are already filled out for you based on what your employer etc. have already reported to the authorities; the US stuff was just a small additional form. So in reality the painful part was and is the US tax return, which is ridiculously antiquated and complicated and involve lots of paperwork, especially when you have foreign bank accounts.)
takeda 10y ago
You are already making a mistake that Europe is a single country, so I'm getting that you never visited it. Europe is a continent with many countries speaking different languages, with different cultures. You should be more specific where you want to go.
woogiewonka 10y ago
Off topic but: is anyone freelancing from Japan? I may be doing this soon and have so many questions for someone who is currently doing this!
roryisok 10y ago
I am biased (born here) but I'd recommend Ireland. Zero language barrier, very little cultural difference (all people seem to talk about these days are HBO and Netflix shows and the US election). There is huge demand for developers here at the moment. You're guaranteed a job in Dublin, but rent can be a mini nightmare there. It starts at around 800 euro for single room bedsits, you could pay 1200-1500 per month for a house in the suburbs with an hour commute. You may find work in other parts of the country but most companies are in or around the capital. Food here is good, standards of living are high, crime low, services (health etc) competitively good. Irish people like to complain about it here but we have it good
hiphopyo 10y ago
A lot of Americans live in Norway: https://visitnorway.no/ https://visitnorway.no/ https://nav.no/workinnorway/en/Home https://nav.no/workinnorway/en/Home https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Americans
matttheatheist 10y ago
By all means, do it! Meanwhile, the best and brightest Europeans come to America.
nopasswordhere 10y ago
Contact the embassy of the country you want to go to.
mlent 10y ago
As I see that elsewhere you mentioned that you only have basic technical skills, I will offer you this information: * If seeking a job, you will have a hard time being hired without much more experience. * You cannot "just move" to any European country without getting a job there, unless you have a bunch of money in the bank or proven income (usually a minimum of 50k a year), and only some countries allow you to come for "non-lucrative" purposes. Easiest is Spain. * Getting a freelancer visa is generally difficult unless, again, you can prove a track record. It's much easier to start as a normal employee and apply to be a freelancer after a few years in the system. * My #1 suggestion to anyone looking to move to Europe for work: Come here on vacation, apply for jobs in person, land a contract, move here. Getting a job in person is so much easier. In Germany you need to make at least 38k to qualify for the skilled worker visa. You can make as little as ~36k if your job is in a STEM field. You will not get hired without solid experience if you're applying from America, I can tell you that with near certainty. I have a hand full of articles on my blog you may find useful. However, they are mostly geared towards people who are highly skilled. IMO you need to focus on honing your skillset before you try to move abroad, because any European country is only going to take you if you're an asset to the system or rich enough, basically. http://notanomadblog.com/categories/work-abroad/ http://notanomadblog.com/categories/work-abroad/ I'm a developer from the US living in Berlin. I've been in Germany for about 3.5 years now. Let me know if you have any questions and I'll be happy to answer them! As a last statement: I love living in Europe and may never move back to the US.
bendermon 10y ago
I am neither European nor American and have been living in Copenhagen for about 3.5 years. Here are some observations. The one big difference is that at the end of the month you would have nothing left to save. And if you plan to move out at a later point you would have neither money nor a useful professional network. You would not be eligible for most of the good things we hear about socialist states - social housing, paid education. If you are young and healthy you may not have much to get out of the free healthcare. Be ready to pay incredibly high rents for private company housing or be homeless constantly, I have moved 9 times in 3.5 years and now I pay more than half my pay in rent+transport to live in a city 100 KMs away (unlimited by expensive). Language and Credentials: Can be a short term and long term barrier, be ready to start from square one at least on your first job. Pay: Usually unionised, software engineers earn about average salaries just like everyone else, even though they have diminishing career prospects. I was shocked to learn that CS was the least attractive majors, now I understand why. Scale and opportunity: There is no critical mass at least in small countries like Denmark so I believe the best opportunities are still the ones in the US, especially if you want to specialise. I am sure you have heard plenty of the positives of life in Europe and assume it must be the reason for your question.

161 points by alexhakawy 10y ago

neximo64 10y ago

Find a job in your country of choice and get your visa - then move, about as simple as that. If you're looking at a job on the continent make sure you know the local language fluently (not English). It is said that its ok to know English alone but it really isn't. You'll come to the reason that most Europeans in the tech space opt for the US - the compensation factor in Europe is relatively poor.

pg314 10y ago
Lower compensation, but better social security (if you manage to get citizenship), better working hours, more holidays. I second learning the local language. That is one of the most important requirements to truly integrate.
- neximo64 10y ago
  Having gone through the experience myself it depends what you're aiming at. In my opinion, in the tech space in particular the US is a no brainer for the European to move to: If you're aiming at your own startup, Europe is downright awful you control the working hours, holidays and social security. Entrepreneurship is terrible because the culture doesn't adapt well to it. Raising cash is like selling a fridge to eskimos. There is a culture of hitting yourself at failure and extremely conservative risk. Your own parents wont support you in a startup. For a job in tech: In Silicon valley all those things you mentioned are quite easy to come by? Social security, holidays, working hours and even better + a wage which is why the draw is the other way from here.
  - drakonka 10y ago
    This is really interesting, I wonder if Stockholm is for some reason in its own bubble when it comes to startups in the EU. We have so many (funded) startups forming here it's kind of getting crazy (but in a good way). I mostly only hear about new games companies forming as that's the industry I'm in - quite a few people have recently left larger companies in Stockholm to start their own game dev studios. I guess with time we will know how successful they will be, but at least the process of branching off and starting your own studio here seems quite accessible.
- kgwgk 10y ago
  Social security is mostly independent of citizenship.
- kwhitefoot 10y ago
  You don't have to be a citizen to get at least some forms of social security in many European/Scandinavian countries. Norway will pay me unemployment if I am made redundant even though I am not a citizen because I have been paying tax here for the last thirty years.
kwhitefoot 10y ago
Go first, then learn the language. It will be much easier to learn a language when you are in a country that uses it. Tell all your Anglophile friends and colleagues to speak the local language to you as much as possible and attend evening classes for immigrants (many of whom won't speak English). It's much faster and easier than learning it on your own. I say this from my experience learning Norwegian in Norway which was much less painful and more successful than learning French at school in England even though I had many more hours of formal French instruction.
- neximo64 10y ago
  You can't easily go first because of the Visa issue, where you need the job first where you need the language first.

colinbartlett 10y ago

You won't exactly get fresh faces, but have you thought about working remotely for an American company from Europe? Many companies are open to this and you can skirt visa issues just traveling as a tourist. This way, you can dip your toes into the locale you're interested in with less commitment and upending.

taway_1212 10y ago

Man, you have a very vauable asset for a tech career - a US Citizenship. I am very envious of folks who have it. The tech career opportunities outside of US are really not that diverse and are heavily scattered across the world - i.e. maybe the rest of the world combined is as interesting tech-wide as US is - but with lower salary and language/immigration barriers (i.e. try job-hopping, over a span of say 5 years, from Germany to New Zealand to China vs NYC to SF to Seattle).

askmike 10y ago
> a US Citizenship. I am very envious of folks who have it. Not everyone wants to move to/stay in the US, the world has a lot of beauty. ---- I for one am very happy to live in Europe. But Europe is a very diverse continent so it's an extremely broad question. I've lived in a few places within Europe, traveled through others. But there is still so much hidden for me. If I were to move outside I would probably go to Asia.
- taway_1212 10y ago
  A lot depends on the kind of career you want to have. If you're happy with staying within the mainstream business/web programming, then Europe does not constrain you that much (except lower salaries, which means less savings, which means retiring later). On the other hand, if you want to go into something niche (compilers, graphics, anything math-based), then US is really the place to be.
  - twic 10y ago
    There's a reasonable amount of graphics and compiler work in the UK - we have ARM, and Imagination Technologies, plus some other boutique local companies, and offices of international companies like Broadcom and IBM (Hursley did a lot of IBM's JVM work, not sure if that's still going).
dClauzel 10y ago
> you have a very vauable asset for a tech career - a US Citizenship DAFUQ ? I am a French research in computer science, now working for a company producing and streaming contents on the web. I can assure you that my carrer opportunities — as sysadmin, researcher, or developper — are pretty good in France and in Europe :)

cylinder 10y ago

The New World is better for fresh starts than Europe.

Noseshine 10y ago
Source? Not just an opinion please, I mean an actual source - with facts, figures, data. Also, you would have to define what you actually mean by "better" (as well as what "fresh start" really means). Details. What kind of person (with enough relevant details to actually be a useful description) doing what can expect what based on what where exactly (US and Europe are both huge and very diverse places)?
- cylinder 10y ago
  I'm not obligated to provide a "source." It's called an opinion. If one seeks merely a "fresh start," then just move somewhere else in the USA. If frustrated with the government, politics, culture of the USA, then move to Europe or some other country.
  - Noseshine 10y ago
    With that attitude you can just pipe /dev/random to the comment section. What's the use of your comments if they contain nothing ob substance? Rhetorical question. I think /r/politics on reddit is far better suited for that kind of "discussion" than HN which aims to be of better quality.
epx 10y ago
Quite funnny that posts that don't pray as everyone else (eu > us) are being downvoted.

PaulHoule 10y ago

I think Europe is going just as nutty as the states, maybe more. I am betting that the national front wins in France and France drops out; after that the euro collapses and we see a monetary nightmare.

askmike 10y ago
I would like to take you on that bet. I also wonder if you have ever been to anywhere in Europe.
- PaulHoule 10y ago
  I lived in Germany for a year and have spent time in the UK, Netherlands, Austria, Czech Republic, etc. Yes, Europe has architecture where the U.S. has decorated sheds. But the social fault lines in Europe aren't that different from the social fault lines in the states. From day one the pundits have been concerned that effects related to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossible_trinity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossible_trinity would blow up the euro -- i.e. Germany and Italy might have reasons to have different monetary policies. Many economists think the situation is truely intractable (they'd like it if the "Impossible Trinity" was a solid concept) but it certainly is intractable if you don't face the social fault lines head on.
petre 10y ago
He can just pick a country outside the EMU: UK, Czech Republic, Sweeden, Denmark, Switzerland, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria. The last ones are in danger of entering the Eurozone, ceding control over their currencies to the EU and possibly getting in trouble like Greece did. Capital is already fleeing out of Europe to the US. I'd say it's a bad move to move to Europe right now, unless it's for college/uni and maybe job prospects afterwards. Although he's going to have a hard time as an American citizen because of silly tax agreements the US has with other countries.

shortsightedsid 10y ago

I recently moved for an year's assignment to Amsterdam. Intercompany transfer. The process has been interesting. The main thing which took time was getting my Birth certificate legalized under The Hague convention a.k.a apostilled. After that it's documentation work which my company lawyer handled. Once I got here it's taken time to get used to the differences but thoroughly enjoy it. Highly recommend it, if you can. The best route has been this - inter company transfer.

drakonka 10y ago

Does the US have a working holiday visa arrangement with Europe? This is how I moved, but I was moving from Australia. Got my Australian citizenship and applied for working holiday visa to Sweden. Visa documentation was emailed to me within a couple of weeks of the application. This allowed me to move with my savings and look for a job on-site. The employer I found then helped me out with the process of applying for my employee visa and residence permit once my working holiday visa was near expiry. If you're a senior dev you may be able to just bypass the "move first" step and get a job remotely with a relocation package. I had experience in my chosen industry but was still considered fairly junior, so moving to the country and applying from there ended up being more productive than looking for a company that would deal with relocating a junior from the other side of the world.

fulafel 10y ago
Many (most?) countries will give you a work visa if you have a job offer, and will let you stay if that turns permanent. It's not tied to the US.
- drakonka 10y ago
  Yes, but I'm not really sure what this has to do with my comment? A Working Holiday visa is not the same as a work visa that you get if you have a job offer. The point of my getting a Working Holiday visa was to move to the country for a substantial amount of time (the visa allows 1 year) and look for work while there instead of trying to convince an employer to hire a junior from overseas. Most EU countries also have restrictions on the employee visas they grant - such as the position having to be advertised within the country (or maybe within the EU) first with some exceptions for very specialist roles, etc. In addition (speaking only for Sweden here) even afterwards it's not as easy as going to the Migration board and going "Well here's my offer, give me a visa!" - the Migration board checks with the relevant union to vet the offer and make sure conditions of employment are suitable. In addition to that queues can be very long, so having the assistance of a larger company that frequently liaises with both the migration board and the unions when applying for a visa can help fast track the entire process.
deleted 10y ago

raverbashing 10y ago

> what I can do or the process to get started in moving to Europe? Do your homework? Learn a language besides English (maybe?) At least rejoice, European visa processes are usually straightforward (if you have a diploma) and it usually involves much less BS and waits than the corresponding H1-B process

radicalbyte 10y ago

I moved from the UK to The Netherlands a decade ago. It was a fantastic decision. It's nice here, most people speak English (although I learnt the language) and there's a lot of demand for Developers. There are also crazy tax incentives which result in you paying basically 0 tax for the first 5 years. That covers the costs of learning the language (3k EUR and it takes 2 years).

chatmasta 10y ago
Can you talk more about those tax incentives?
- lomereiter 10y ago
  I believe he talks about the 30% ruling: http://www.iamsterdam.com/en/local/official-matters/highly-skilled-migrants/thirty-percent-ruling/30-percent-ruling-indepth http://www.iamsterdam.com/en/local/official-matters/highly-s...

kowdermeister 10y ago

> what's it like out there comparing to America It's totally different country by country. I never been to the US, but I imagine it's much more homogeneous than the EU. For example you can go to Berlin, Barcelona, Milano, Stockholm or Budapest and you can have radically different experiences. It differs radically financially, demographically and attitude wise. I'd suggest to start with a Euro-trip and visit as many countries as you can and then make a "final" choice where to settle.

19kuba22 10y ago
From my experience traveling Europe and America, Europe is much more homogeneous even if languages are different.
- pepon 10y ago
  No way if by America you mean the US.
  - 19kuba22 10y ago
    I'm referring to the US, though to be honest including Canada wouldn't change much. (Mexico is a whole different story) I know it's not a common opinion, which is why I made clear that it's just my experience. I've been to 19 US states and 15 European countries and I found Arizona to be more different from Pennsylvania than Romania was compared to let's say Spain or Germany.
    - mlent 10y ago
      I'd say it's probably a matter of not having a 'european palate' so to speak. It's like if you give two red wines to someone who doesn't usually drink wine. They'll tell you they taste the same, but to someone who drinks red wine daily, they are totally different. I have traveled the US, and have lived in Europe for several years, and would completely disagree with your assessment.
tomschlick 10y ago

johnomarkid 10y ago

If you are a programmer/designer you can get a 3 year freelance visa in Berlin, Germany. I currently live in Berlin with that visa. Your standard of living in Europe will vary. Sure, some places offer free healthcare (not exactly free - see taxes), better public transportation, and decent quality food at lower tier supermarkets. That's all great. On the other hand, you'll likely take a huge hit in salary and pay higher taxes. That does make a difference in lifestyle. A personal anecdote: in NYC I paid $2500/month to live alone in a decent apartment in a vibrant area (East Village). That's a lot of money! In Berlin I paid $700/month for an apartment of similar quality, but because salary and taxes are so low, I wasn't able to save nearly as much as I did in NYC paying high rent, a lot of money for quality groceries, etc. There are other benefits of living in Europe like 30 days of vacation, ample maternal/paternal leave, and some financial security if you lose your job. That said, it's harder to get these jobs. Because of the risk companies need to take when hiring new employees (ie paying for all the benefits above), there's currently a huge workforce of temporary employees. Everyone is aiming for the seemingly elusive "permanent contract." I say make the move. You'll learn a lot about the world and yourself. You can always move back to the US. FYI this comes from the perspective of a software engineer turned entrepreneur turned software engineer. Berlin freelance visa: https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/305249/en/ https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/305249/en/

welder 10y ago
Good advice, but not having a degree or showing work experience might make it hard to get the freelancer visa. I would also recommend the "preparation for study visa" which gives you two years for taking German language courses and you can always change to the freelancer or work visa before the two years is up. [1] for the OP, without a degree you can still get the work visa if you're hired by a German company. > what's it like out there comparing to America? Main daily difference is you don't need a car. Find a job and go there. You need to experience it yourself to really know what it's like. 1. https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/305156/en/ https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/305156/en/
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

jankotek 10y ago

Do remote work for US company...

alexhakawy 10y ago
I can't find even remote work inside the US lol I know HTML, CSS and basic JS
- jankotek 10y ago
  Good luck than. Maybe worry about the job, rather than about visa.
- krapp 10y ago
  Nowadays that's like trying to find work as a mechanic because you know how to change a tire. I know HTML, CSS, JS, C++, C#, PHP and Hack - and I often can't find work because the bar of competence for many programming jobs still requires knowledge of frameworks, libraries and processes that I don't have experience with, and because the freelance market is global. It can be difficult to tick all the boxes and stand out in a crowd of millions.
- petre 10y ago
  You can study for cheap and get a student visa in Germany, Austria or an ex Eastern Block country, get a job until senior developer there, then work for a US company. Forget Italy. Italy is probably nice to live in, but it's at risk of becoming the next Greece right now. Big problems in the banking sector, 1st country for refugees to enter through along with Greece.
- snicky 10y ago
  1. Learn something that can help you to do stuff that people are willing to pay for. You already know some webdev, so maybe go ahead and spend a couple of months trying out some frontend frameworks. There are ample amounts of frontend jobs everywhere in US, EU and Asia. 2. Find a remote job in US. Even a junior position with a low salary would allow you to live decently in most European places (maybe except downtown London, etc.). 3. Pick a random European city you might like, get an airbnb and just go there for a while. 4. If you like it, stay. If you don't, pick another city. If you can't make the decision in 3 months, move to a cheap place in Asia and go back when you can. Flights are cheap. Places to stay are cheap. Just lower the bar. You don't have to live in the middle of Paris or London this whole time. 5. Travel a lot and profit. Unless of course your prefer to go through a routine of choosing a single place, finding a job in there, networking, making lots of new friends, etc. There's your tradeoff, but hey, you are 26. [edit: paragraphs]

qz_ 10y ago

Europe is big - not geographically, but culturally. As kowdermeister already said, you'll have _very_ different experiences in different parts of Europe. Amsterdam's culture is very different from Barcelona's culture, which is very different from London's culture. Go on a little trip: for Americans I'd suggest Berlin, Amsterdam, London, Madrid, or anything you're interested in.

dom0 10y ago
Europe (the continent) is about the same size as the US, just with twice as many people living in Europe. NA is lots bigger, but a lot of empty space...

wfleming 10y ago

I did this: moved to the U.K. for several years. To echo some of the other excellent comments here, I think the main takeaways should be: 1. Compensation is generally lower than in the US. That's worth keeping in mind depending on your age & long terms plans, if you have those already. Don't let it turn you off from the idea, because living elsewhere can be wonderful, but it's worth being clear that this probably isn't the optimal choice for your bank balance/savings. But it doesn't sound like that's your priority, so that's fine. 2. If the primary reason for the move is a lifestyle change, I agree with others that the best way to do that is figure out where you want to live & then look for jobs there (or freelance/work remotely if that suits you). From my personal experience & seeing friends go through it with various countries, it's usually fairly straightforward & a company that wants to hire you should be able to help out with the process. I'll second Berlin as a really good choice for location: culturally very vibrant & has a rapidly growing tech & art scene. I know several people who have moved there in the last few years. I'll also say I personally loved living in London, and already being fluent in the language has its perks, but that may not be as much of a change as you want. Good luck!

alexhakawy 10y ago
freelancing sounds nice but I'm willing to just work out there and start from the bottom to make my way up.

mbroncano 10y ago

EU citizen currently living in the US here. Hugely recommended, if only for comparison purposes. From my own experience, English speaking countries are a must. If that's not an option, cities like Barcelona or Berlin should cover your bases for at least a year, but you won't survive for long without speaking Spanish or German. There are more things than work in life, and you'll soon get tired of only dealing with expats or your own nationals. Please do not fool yourself too early into thinking 'yeah, I'll just learn the thing', unless you have a knack for languages, or you already speak one or two foreign tongues. YMMV though, it is certainly doable if you apply. Scandinavian countries, Ireland or The Netherlands are your best bet these days, and there is a relatively big IT sector in all of them. Salaries are not what you expect coming from the US, your $200k rated job is no more than 80k€, but you will certainly require much less. Saving is possible and encouraged. Edit: grammar

welder 10y ago
Second this, besides Berlin I would recommend the northern countries. They speak English natively so it's less of a culture shock. You will pay more for rent and necessities than Berlin but salaries are higher too.
vram22 10y ago
>Scandinavian countries All or some of them? e.g. I've read on HN that there is a lot of software work in Sweden, but how about Norway, Finland and Denmark?
- bjelkeman-again 10y ago
  The tech investments in Sweden are nearly as big as the other three countries together [1]. Most of which goes to Stockholm. [1] As an example, this is for November. http://www.nordictechlist.com/content/reports/The%20November%202016%20NordicTech%20Summary%20Report.pdf http://www.nordictechlist.com/content/reports/The%20November...
  - vram22 10y ago
    Thanks.

fsloth 10y ago

"In Europe" is kinda broad statement. It's like saying moving to americas. Honduras is not Alaska. Where to, exactly?

alexhakawy 10y ago
London UK or Italy
- fsloth 10y ago
  UK for work, Italy for holidays? To my understanding the employment options in Italy generally suck. If someone has better information please revise.

lordnacho 10y ago

That's a big life decision. I've lived in Europe my whole life, but I have a lot of friends and relatives in the US. I've also lived in 3 different European countries, and of course I know people from just about all the Western European nations. There's a lot got you to think about. This is only a small part, off the top of my head: - If you're American, you pay tax worldwide. Most countries have higher tax than the US, so you just pay their tax. Switzerland is different. I lived there, it's a pain as an American to even get a bank account. And you'll have to file a return. A friend of mine is half American and is an accountant. It's annoying for him as well. - Languages. Which do you speak? Most Northern European countries have significant numbers of companies where they speak English. That's not to say you can't learn the language, English is a Germanic language, so not a million miles off German, Dutch, Danish, Swedish, etc. Yet you're not going to understand it getting off the plane. - Social. Are you coming by yourself or are you married? Got kids? It's hard to find documentation for this, but the way one socialises depends a lot on which country you're in, whether you're in the countryside or the city, and whether you have kids or are single. Anecdotally I'd also say some of the Germanic nations have hard-to-penetrate social circles. It's not that they don't like you, they already have their friends and haven't needed to make new ones since college. - Culture shock. I guess you actually want that. But remember you can drop a guy from New York in LA and they will not have a problem at all. Take a guy from Edinburgh to Rome, and they are now a tourist. The plus side is it takes a two hour flight to see something completely different, with different looking people, weather, history, and so on. - Visa. This is going to depend a lot of the specific country. Anyway I'm sure you'll have questions.

alexhakawy 10y ago
if I have family there do I still need visa to live with them?
- robjan 10y ago
  You will unless they are closely related enough to give you citizenship rights. Nationality law is completely different from country to country within Europe, though.

holydude 10y ago

I recommend Prague or Bratislava. You can save a lot and get a job in one of the US corps. People are down to earth. They really like americans and will speak english all the time when you are around.

rurban 10y ago
I would also add Wroclaw, Cracow or Warsaw then.
- holydude 10y ago
  Agreed. Awesome cities. Poles are awesome people as well!

orbz 10y ago

I spent a few years living and working in Europe with EU companies or US subsidies there. The one main gotcha that no one thinks about is the tax and retirement savings side of things, both of which you should probably do. As a US citizen you're obligated to file (and possibly pay) taxes no matter where in the world you work and reside, no exceptions. It's the price of having US citizenship and access to the US embassy. In most cases you probably won't end up paying anything when you declare the tax you paid in your resident country, but that gets complicated with that country having a different tax year than the US (April to April vs calendar year). Get a competent expat attorney and pay for it to be done for you. There's also the FBAR which you might need to become acquainted with. As for the retirement savings, lots of countries have their own types of retirement accounts that can be invested in as part of your paycheck. The caveat here is how to repatriate the funds when you leave before hitting your 60's. I haven't found a great way to roll those over to an IRA back in the states yet.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
Bombthecat 10y ago
Do you really need to declare that you paid taxes in Germany? Isn't there some sort of agreement?
- vinay427 10y ago
  As the parent said, you unfortunately need to declare the income as a US citizen but may or may not need to pay taxes on it.
- mlent 10y ago
  There's ~90k cap. If your foreign-earned income is less than that, you state the tax paid in Germany and don't need to pay for US taxes. If you make more than ~90k, you have to pay taxes for the amount over ~90k.
  - Bombthecat 10y ago

anonymfus 10y ago

>I have family in Europe Then if you specify country where they live may be you will get more specific answers.

alexhakawy 10y ago
London UK , and Italy Rome.
- cav71 10y ago
  The job market in Italy (and Rome) is a very closed circle: hard to get into. Best jobs are in the defence sector but those require clearance.

TamDenholm 10y ago

I dont know the specifics as i'm not a US citizen, but to my knowledge, i think if you earn a wage in another country outside the US, you will have to pay the local taxes and also tax back to the US Gov as well. Someone please correct me or clarify if i'm wrong.

chillydawg 10y ago
Most western countries have double taxation treaties with the USA, but there is often a period where you have to temporarily pay the taxes in both places and then get a refund on the US portion, which can be very expensive if poorly timed.
jaclaz 10y ago
There is AFAIK an allowance of up to around US$ 100,000 for wages and similar income, BUT you will have to file taxes on both countries, some reference: http://www.expatinfodesk.com/expat-guide/nationality-specific-information/americans/us-tax-liability/ http://www.expatinfodesk.com/expat-guide/nationality-specifi... https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/foreign-earned-income-exclusion https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/fore... In the real world, unless you are a "top notch" executive or programmer, etc. it is not-so-easy to reach that amount with European wages.

alexhakawy 10y ago

made some changes to my post to clear things up. Thanks everyone for the advices.

nothrabannosir 10y ago

Concretely, check out DAFT: the Dutch-American Friendship Treaty. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT The treaty makes it easier for US Entrepreneurs to open businesses in The Netherlands. It lowers the amount of needed investment capital from €27,000 to €4,500, frees US Entrepreneurs from the points-based test, and removes the benefit to Dutch national interests requirement. The residency permit is good for two years, after which it can be extended.

alkonaut 10y ago

Go find out. What are your career plans? Do you want to do websites or work in a bar? How do you value short commutes/cheap living costs vs. high incomes? How do you value high income versus rain or snow? if you haven't visited many places in europe, perhaps you have traveled the US can say e.g. "I'd do anything to get Californian climate, I couldn't stand Minnesota"... With some more info we can give you a hint.

alexhakawy 10y ago
Cold weather or hot doesn't matter to me. I enjoy everything. I do want to become a web developer eventually doing remote work but until I learn everything to know about freelance web developing I will work at a bar or warehouse whatever it takes to survive out there. Not sure how the whole Visa thing works or if they'll let me stay there past 90 days I got aunt out there

loxs 10y ago

Prepare to be much worse financially. You will earn less, pay higher taxes (as percentage) and will feel much poorer. Cars, especially nice ones, are much more expensive (in absolute numbers, not only as percentage of income) to buy and own. Petrol is several times the US price. Rents are higher in most cities (at least compared to income). Maybe only SV is worse compared to Europe. All tech gadgets are more expensive, roughly at +20% in absolute terms, because of VAT And yeah, on top of that you get "free" healthcare, which is usually of very questionable quality.

GavinMcG 10y ago
Do you have more info to support the "usually of very questionable quality" claim? Edit: corrected "low" to "questionable".
- loxs 10y ago
  Sorry, I only have my personal experience and that of my family and friends. And I didn't say "low". Usually it's highly bureaucratic - you have to "climb a ladder" of doctors. First your GP, then a specialist, then, maybe a hospital. You wait a lot (sometimes weeks and months, because you are not "emergency"). And sometimes you encounter outright incompetence and have to go to a private doctor/hospital to have your problems properly attended to. That summarizes my experiences with the healthcare systems of 4 different EU countries.
  - tluyben2 10y ago
    What countries? My experiences are excellent in Netherlands & Spain public healthcare. I hear people complain about NHS a lot but never used it so no idea.
    - loxs 10y ago
      Bulgaria, Spain, Denmark, Finland
      - 10y ago

patrickbuahgiar 10y ago

I think the cheapest European citizenship you can buy is Maltese citizenship for just €650k + 25-50k each for spouse and children. Maltese citizens have visa-free access to 168 countries and territories, thus ranking the Maltese passport 9th in the world (the highest ranking of all the recent new member states of the EU) according to the Visa Restrictions Index. check out http://www.maltaimmigration.com/ http://www.maltaimmigration.com/

jf271 10y ago
If you have relatives from Europe look into citizenship via decent. My grandmother was born in Ireland and I was able to acquire Irish citizenship because of that. Now I have dual US/Irish citizenship
- alexhakawy 10y ago
  wow that's cool I'll have to look into it. Thanks

yawz 10y ago

Any idea what country? I lived in different countries in Europe, and I currently live in the US. I can tell by experience that EU countries differ among each other more significantly than US states.

jfaucett 10y ago

I can only speak for the countries I know about which are Germany, Poland and France. But generally I think these properties hold across Europe as a whole, at least from collegues or friends from other countries whom I've talked to, this might not be the case though so check it out for yourself. So heres the gist of it. You will have a much lower standard of living by most monetary measures. Taxes are higher than in the US and regulations/beurocracy is more extensive. Everything is "smaller" from cars, houses, and land to meals. Energy costs - especially transportation costs - are much higher almost everywhere, which forces you to try to keep your energy consumption low compared to how you would live in the US. There is virtually one sport everywhere and its soccer, so facilities/clubs/organizations for any other sport are far behind US standards. For instance, you will not be able to find anything resembling a YMCA where you can workout with weights, play basketball and racketball and go swimming all for some monthly membership. People all live much closer together, so you won't be able to find a place thats even a little "off the grid" this can be good or bad just depends on what you prefer. On the more positive side, you will have "free" healthcare, but the quality will vary drastically from country to country. In Poland its disastrous for instance whereas in Germany its pretty nice and will cover just about all your health costs and the quality is high as well. France is closer to the Germany side of things but I'd say the overall quality is a bit lower. Also you will rarely if ever work more than 40 hours a week and you'll also get 30 paid vacation days a year from most employers. In Germany, sick days don't count against your vacation days so it all compounds to a pretty big chunk of leisure time. Additionally, there's all kinds of various social welfare programs that will take care of you should you become unemployed or disabled etc. these are extensive and well-funded in Germany and France much less so in Poland. I'm an expat and have lived/worked in Germany for the past 9 years, basically my entire 20s and working life except for freelance web work I did while getting my undergrad in the US.

alexhakawy 10y ago
what kinda freelance work did you do

iagooar 10y ago

I assume you want a career as a software engineer. This is my list: - Berlin: cheap (getting expensive quick, but still cheap for a large city), multicultural (many, many people from all around the world, lots of people speak English, those who don't usually understand you), Germans themselves are very open and interesting as a nation. Berlin has a vibrant startup scene, which is nice for getting your first job as a young person with little experience. The downside is that there is not many serious software companies nor industry. Salaries are VERY low compared with the US. German is not required for normal life, but highly recommended. Some companies still prefer people with German. - London: Has many, many companies and is usually on the bleeding edge technology-wise. Payroll is nice, although prices and rent are high. You won't have to learn a new language and will be able to compete for all the job offers as long as your profile fits in. The downside is the imminent Brexit, which might be good or bad, nobody knows right now. - Zurich: once you are +30 and look for a more quiet, stable lifestyle, Switzerland is the place to be. Salaries are US-level, health care, security, public transportation and stability are the best in Europe (Norway might be better though, but very close). It's VERY expensive, although if you come from NY or from the Bay Area, rents are more or less in the same ballpark. The language barrier is comparable as in Germany, although Swiss people usually prefer when people speak English rather than standard German with foreign accent. Swiss people might be a bit tough to crack, but are not that bad once you know how to treat them. In the Zurich area there is tons and tons of companies, lots of innovation going on as well. Finance is very strong. Biotech is growing pretty strong. I have 2 recommendations for you: a) Go to Berlin, and then start looking around. It's a really cool place to be for 26-year-old. b) Go to London, you will have a much easier start and there is enough companies for an adventurous career.

tbarbugli 10y ago
I would not suggest Germany or (german) Switzerland to people that don't speak german.
- raverbashing 10y ago
  Studying another language is part of leaving your comfort zone. People can start with the several apps available today, they don't even need to go to an actual class.

gorbachev 10y ago

What I would do is visit the places you're interested in first without committing to staying. Buy a rail pass and travel from city to city, get a feel of each city for a week or two, network with the people you want to associate with and once you're done, or find something you feel like is exactly what you're looking for start arranging the actual move and getting a job in the city of your choice.

tr1ck5t3r 10y ago

Sounds like you want to go travelling, perhaps you can get some contract work from some of those online contract/freelance sites. You need to decide what your work life balance is to be. If you want to do more soaking up the culture, consider the above option, if you want to do more work and learning then decide what area you want to work in and then look for companies that might present those opportunities. You'll have a mix of costs where ever you go in the world and within a country. I could say lots of jobs in and around Cambridge, and whilst the city is expensive to buy, many students manage the costs of renting shared accomodation, but move outside the city heading anywhere but south towards London and costs can fall. I guess its a case of setting your standards accordingly. You dont say where your Aunt lives either which might also limit your options. Here in the UK you can get on the job training as an apprentice, but I dont know if its restricted to just UK Citizens or people from overseas as well. Perhaps a bit more detail in your Ask HN might help you get more detailed useful info.

bogomipz 10y ago

You can only remain in the Schengen Zone for 90 days every 6 months as a US Citizen. Have you given any thought to your strategy there? Some countries will allow a language learning visa which could help you get some extra time until you get yourself sorted out for work. You don't want to overstay your tourist visa either, as it will likely cause problems for you when you leave and try to come back.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

Broken_Hippo 10y ago

The first thing you'll need to decide is where you'd like - and if you can go to those places. Most of the time, you'll either need to go to school, work, or marry someone to live there. Some countries have visas for job searching, but it might be difficult without a degree. For the countries you have relatives in, you'll have to check their immigration policies. Generally only close relatives are eligible for family immigration, but there might be exceptions. You might check schooling in those countries as well. Good luck!

bane 10y ago

Europe is great. I have several friends who've made this move. I'd say that they have a higher and more relaxed quality of life at a much lower salary than I know of in the U.S. Salaries are lower, taxes are higher, but I think it balances out well. One thing I've noticed is that if you're willing to live a bit outside of a major city and along a commuter rail line (a commute not extraordinary by U.S. standards but seemingly insane by European), housing costs can be much much lower. With a few exceptions, the kind of tech work will likely be more prosaic in nature. The kind of big startup scene you might find in SV or other places in the U.S. does exist in Europe, but not at anywhere near the scale or with the kind of capital availability that's present in the U.S. On the upside, the work tends to be very stable. Long-term, you'll have to think about retirement and either make a decision to stay or return and start saving up. If you come back to the U.S., the system is designed to offer you a reasonable retirement, but only after decades of saving. You may not think that's important at 26, but you'll likely start to feel it at 36. If you stay in Europe, you'll need to figure out the local retirement system and how that work. If you pull that trigger and stay in Europe, you'll probably want to look at giving up your U.S. citizenship because you'll be obligated to pay taxes the entire time you're in Europe (there's some deductions, but you'll still have to do all the paperwork).

kbouck 10y ago
> pension If you move to Europe, build up a pension, and then move back to the U.S., you should be able extract the money from that pension (according to the conditions), regardless of where you reside in there future. > taxes You are obliged to report all of your foreign earnings to the IRS as well as all of your foreign bank account status each year. You are taxed on your income both in the local country and in the US :-/, but the US amount is only on income above a certain threshold. Maybe someone can correct me but I think the current amount is somewhere around $90k USD. Like my parent poster said, there are deductions, so find a good tax adviser that is familiar with both local and US tax laws.
- afarrell 10y ago
  You can ether use the foreign earned income exclusion (which I think has risen to closer to 100k) or the foreign tax credit. You also want to take extensions so that you can qualify as a nonresident, or you will pay the ACA penalty for not having health insurance.

raarts 10y ago

I'm from Amsterdam, lived in the US recently for 2 years (Atlanta). Salaries are lower in the EU, taxes are higher, rents are lower. On the other hand I found many things to be more expensive in the US : health care, car insurance, education, groceries. I found that in the end it turned out to be more or less the same. What's left is culture shock, which is actually very good for you, broadening your horizon. In Europe everything seems smaller though, that's a real difference. Also architecture has more history. One important advice though, which is true for every country: learn the language!!

poisonarena 10y ago

Sidenote, if you or your mom, happen to be jewish.. You can get a free ticket to Israel, give you citizenship, the government will help you with housing and actually give you money, and hebrew lessons.. They also have a booming tech industry.. I lived there for a couple of years and while not exactly in mainland Europe, it is very European. I currently live in Mexico City and thats also a great non-Euro option !

EduardoBautista 10y ago
I currently live in Guadalajara as a freelancer and I am thinking of moving to Mexico City next year if I can convince myself to pay the higher rent. Loved being there and there are areas similar to Brooklyn to give you an idea of what life is like there.
- poisonarena 10y ago
  convincing myself the same thing, but for Guadalajara!

afarrell 10y ago

I moved US -> UK in July and don't regret it at all. This depended on me getting a tier-2 visa though. This is harder without a degree and programming skill. If you want recommendations for communicative, knowledgeable, & ethical recruiters in London or Dublin, I'd be happy to connect you. My email is in my profile.

Pica_soO 10y ago

German here. Had a friend who studied info scienes. He does the tour- as in traversing the Mediterranean coast (Marroko, Porto,Spain,France,Italy, Austria, the Balkan (the european middle east), Greek, Israel - living in AirBnB Flats, working remote. Great landscape, great climate, tax avoiding if you stay in no country longer then the max-tax time. Con: Sucks if you want a stable live and a family.

simonebrunozzi 10y ago

If you ask on HN, and given you're American, you could start by writing more correctly. Reading your "ask" is a bit annoying, it contains so many grammar mistakes. It shows that you did this quickly and without regard to your audience.

hiphopyo 10y ago
It's short and concise spoken American, I don't see what the big deal is
zzzzz99997 10y ago
Keep your grammar-nazism to yourself. Reading shit like this is "a bit annoying".

kazinator 10y ago

Note that USA citizens living abroad, no matter for how long, are required to pay USA income tax. The only way out of this parasitic arrangement is to give up your citizenship. The USA charges hefty fees for citizenship renouncement. They know you're doing it for money and want to squeeze something out of you before you get away for good.

johnomarkid 10y ago
This is misleading. Income of up to $101,300 is excluded. Also, tax credits are given if the amount you pay in the country you live in is higher than what you would have been paid in the US. Given that a salary of $101k in Europe is unlikely, and that taxes are almost always higher in Europe than the US, you do not need to worry about paying income tax to the US. You do, however, need to file a tax return. I don't support these policies, but I wanted to clarify things for people who could get scared away by your comment. It really isn't that bad. When U.S. Citizens Living Abroad Owe U.S. Tax: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/when-us-citizens-living-abroad-owe-us-tax.html http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/when-us-citizens-livi...
- futhey 10y ago
  Correct. One thing to remember, the $102,100 Foreign Earned Income Exclusion only applies if you spend 330 days of the tax year abroad or have legal residency in the other country (and even in that case you're not supposed to spend more than a few months residing in the US).
lobster_johnson 10y ago
The US has tax agreements with lots of countries that prevent you from being taxed twice on the same income (and for other countries there are still solutions). Plus, you'd only be paying federal-level taxes, since you'd not be a resident of any state. Not sure about social security. Still, it is of course painful. As someone in the reverse situation (foreigner in the US), I had to pay income tax to Norway for the first three years after moving, with US taxes paid being deducted from what I owed. On the other hand, I did not need to pay the Norwegian equivalent of social security; income tax only. (Of course, the Norwegian tax system is also 100% digital, with very simple forms that are already filled out for you based on what your employer etc. have already reported to the authorities; the US stuff was just a small additional form. So in reality the painful part was and is the US tax return, which is ridiculously antiquated and complicated and involve lots of paperwork, especially when you have foreign bank accounts.)

takeda 10y ago

You are already making a mistake that Europe is a single country, so I'm getting that you never visited it. Europe is a continent with many countries speaking different languages, with different cultures. You should be more specific where you want to go.

woogiewonka 10y ago

Off topic but: is anyone freelancing from Japan? I may be doing this soon and have so many questions for someone who is currently doing this!

roryisok 10y ago

I am biased (born here) but I'd recommend Ireland. Zero language barrier, very little cultural difference (all people seem to talk about these days are HBO and Netflix shows and the US election). There is huge demand for developers here at the moment. You're guaranteed a job in Dublin, but rent can be a mini nightmare there. It starts at around 800 euro for single room bedsits, you could pay 1200-1500 per month for a house in the suburbs with an hour commute. You may find work in other parts of the country but most companies are in or around the capital. Food here is good, standards of living are high, crime low, services (health etc) competitively good. Irish people like to complain about it here but we have it good

hiphopyo 10y ago

A lot of Americans live in Norway: https://visitnorway.no/ https://visitnorway.no/ https://nav.no/workinnorway/en/Home https://nav.no/workinnorway/en/Home https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Americans

matttheatheist 10y ago

By all means, do it! Meanwhile, the best and brightest Europeans come to America.

nopasswordhere 10y ago

Contact the embassy of the country you want to go to.

mlent 10y ago

As I see that elsewhere you mentioned that you only have basic technical skills, I will offer you this information: * If seeking a job, you will have a hard time being hired without much more experience. * You cannot "just move" to any European country without getting a job there, unless you have a bunch of money in the bank or proven income (usually a minimum of 50k a year), and only some countries allow you to come for "non-lucrative" purposes. Easiest is Spain. * Getting a freelancer visa is generally difficult unless, again, you can prove a track record. It's much easier to start as a normal employee and apply to be a freelancer after a few years in the system. * My #1 suggestion to anyone looking to move to Europe for work: Come here on vacation, apply for jobs in person, land a contract, move here. Getting a job in person is so much easier. In Germany you need to make at least 38k to qualify for the skilled worker visa. You can make as little as ~36k if your job is in a STEM field. You will not get hired without solid experience if you're applying from America, I can tell you that with near certainty. I have a hand full of articles on my blog you may find useful. However, they are mostly geared towards people who are highly skilled. IMO you need to focus on honing your skillset before you try to move abroad, because any European country is only going to take you if you're an asset to the system or rich enough, basically. http://notanomadblog.com/categories/work-abroad/ http://notanomadblog.com/categories/work-abroad/ I'm a developer from the US living in Berlin. I've been in Germany for about 3.5 years now. Let me know if you have any questions and I'll be happy to answer them! As a last statement: I love living in Europe and may never move back to the US.

bendermon 10y ago

I am neither European nor American and have been living in Copenhagen for about 3.5 years. Here are some observations. The one big difference is that at the end of the month you would have nothing left to save. And if you plan to move out at a later point you would have neither money nor a useful professional network. You would not be eligible for most of the good things we hear about socialist states - social housing, paid education. If you are young and healthy you may not have much to get out of the free healthcare. Be ready to pay incredibly high rents for private company housing or be homeless constantly, I have moved 9 times in 3.5 years and now I pay more than half my pay in rent+transport to live in a city 100 KMs away (unlimited by expensive). Language and Credentials: Can be a short term and long term barrier, be ready to start from square one at least on your first job. Pay: Usually unionised, software engineers earn about average salaries just like everyone else, even though they have diminishing career prospects. I was shocked to learn that CS was the least attractive majors, now I understand why. Scale and opportunity: There is no critical mass at least in small countries like Denmark so I believe the best opportunities are still the ones in the US, especially if you want to specialise. I am sure you have heard plenty of the positives of life in Europe and assume it must be the reason for your question.