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U.S. Blacklists Alibaba Unit Over Counterfeit Sales

donquichotte 10y ago
Interesting, it seems like they're trying to protect Amazon. I can understand people moving from Amazon to Aliexpress though. When I'm looking for stuff on Amazon, it is often difficult to find out whether they ship to my country and if so, how much the delivery costs. Often, great deals from the US don't ship to Europe. On Aliexpress, everything ships everywhere. You type in you country and currency and have full information.
- tyingq 10y ago
  The article says it's only the Taobao site.
- pen2l 10y ago
  Huh, is Alibaba really very comparable to Amazon for the everyday consumer? I was under the impression that they weren't exactly targeting the same consumers. I thought Alibaba was moreso for resellers, folks who buy in large quantities and such to sell it themselves later. Would you recommend that I, an American, start looking at Alibaba as an Amazon alternative for everyday things?
  - tyingq 10y ago
    Their aliexpress.com site is targeted at end consumers, lower quantities, etc.
  - CapitalistCartr 10y ago
    I do. My wife buys fabric there literally 1/5 to 1/10 the price at the local store. Its only practical for some things, though.
    - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
      A friend of mine has started buying cotton swabs (Q-tips) from AliExpress, because it's 1/10th the price at local grocery stores. I also recently learned that we have no cheap generic paracetamol over here, because the pharma guys did a consumer study and found people preferred the $8/packet ones to the $1/packet ones, even though they contain the exact same ingredients, as the latter were perceived as low quality/dodgy.
  - robert_foss 10y ago
    AliExpress is for consumers. Taobao and Alibaba sell more things in bulk.
  - the_duke 10y ago
    Alibaba.com is for retailers. taobao is only targeting China. aliexpress.com is an international and consumer facing. Expect considerably cheaper prices, and delivery times from 2-6 weeks.
    - rconti 10y ago
      Or, as I call it, AliEventually.
      - umanwizard 10y ago
        Well yeah, the stuff is probably being sent over on a container ship. Have you ever tried shipping something by airmail from a faraway country to the US? It would cost way more than the value of the actual product.
        kogepathic 10y ago
        > It would cost way more than the value of the actual product. Shipping from China is already subsidized by postal rates from the rest of the developed world[0]. Shipping in a container on a boat isn't free, and probably costs more than you pay now when buying something from China: "As part of this reform process, China will be transitioned in 2016 into a category for more developed nations, who generally pay higher terminal dues." [0] http://fortune.com/2015/03/11/united-nations-subsidy-chinese-shipping http://fortune.com/2015/03/11/united-nations-subsidy-chinese...
        vacri 10y ago
        Shipping in a container isn't free, but it's very very cheap. Earlier in the year, someone here on HN mentioned that if you have stuff to store, it's cheaper to put it in a shipping container and have it sail the seas, than it is to put in a local storage warehouse. That is, space on ships is cheaper than space in buildings. Or another anecdote: we grow oranges here in my home state of Victoria, Australia. However, oranges grown in Brazil, flash-frozen, and shipped across the pacific are moderately cheaper than the local ones. Of course, they taste like cardboard, but they have sailed almost halfway around the earth.
  - Bedon292 10y ago
    If you are willing to wait for the shipping they are great. If something sells for $25 on amazon you might find it for $6 on Alibaba but with minimum quantities which are not consumer friendly, plus bulk shipping. Then on Aliexpress, the consumer level one, you might find the same thing for $15 for each one shipped. Source: Christmas shopping. Ended up having to go with Amazon because of shipping times and waiting too late, but its worth the wait for some things.
    - Declanomous 10y ago
      One thing to point out: the more commoditized something is, the better it is to buy on Aliexpress. If you've ever seen the same thing sold by two different manufacturers, that's a sure sign you can buy it on aliexpress for a fraction of the price. The simpler the item, the better. Consumer items I've bought that have turned out to be nearly identical to what I would have bought in the US: bike tools and parts (wire ferrules, valve wrenches, chain whips, cassette tools, wear indicators) inexpensive power bricks, earphones, small hand tools (bit sets, secure screwdrivers, pin vices, wire strippers and diagonal cutters), zip ties, etc. I've also bought a load of electronics (components, microcontrollers, and assembled items). This is a little difficult, because they are generally cut corners. This is terrible for batteries, not great for power supplies, and generally is imperceptible for LEDs. If you need a weird adapter or jack, this is definitely the place to find it. Looking for stuff can be hard though, because chinese names for things aren't always the same as English ones. I don't bother with anything that is less than 25% cheaper from China, unless it is a better product or comes directly from the manufacturer (there are some company stores on Aliexpress). I basically assume I'm self-insuring for defective products. I have never been screwed on a claim, but I have received a lot of products that are just poor quality. It is pretty much the perfect place to buy white elephant gifts though. I ordered a ton of 2x2 rubik's cubes last year (and a few larger ones) and gave them to all my friends. I'd say probably a quarter arrived totally destroyed, since most were just mailed in cheap padded envelopes and they are pretty fragile, but they were so cheap I didn't care. The entertainment value was definitely worth it, a 2x2 cube is much harder to solve than it looks, and I'm pretty sure some of my friends still haven't forgiven me for that gift. Anyways, you can buy most of this stuff on Amazon or Ebay with a modest mark-up. It will be listed as "fulfilled from China" or something similar. It's a good option if you are worried about fraud, since you'll be dealing with eBay/Amazon customer service, rather than Aliexpress. I would recommend buying something cheap off AE just to give it a shot though.
  - paganel 10y ago
    > Huh, is Alibaba really very comparable to Amazon for the everyday consumer I live in Romania and around these parts Aliexpress already has a big presence among your "everyday consumer". I visit the Postal office closest to my workplace every week and during the last or so year I've started seeing more and more young people (under 25, mostly women) who had come to collect the stuff they had ordered from China (most probably from Aliexpress). Around these parts Amazon is only known and partially used for purchasing books.
    - Freak_NL 10y ago
      I've noticed that a lot of the feedback on AliExpress comes from Russia, Eastern European countries, and the assorted former Soviet Union satellite states. Do you know why it is so popular there? Is it a lack of local web shops? From what I can tell AliExpress is mostly popular as a cheap source of (low voltage) electrical components here in The Netherlands. People buy clothing from local web shops (or traditional brick and mortar shops) due to speed, quality, and friendly returns policies though.
      - paganel 10y ago
        > Do you know why it is so popular there? Is it a lack of local web shops? I don't think it's because of the lack of local web shop, at least not in Romania's case. I think it's only a question of costs, it seems that for certain items whatever comes from China is that much less expensive compared to what's available locally, even accounting for the long-ish waiting times and the customs duty.
      - baybal2 10y ago
        >I've noticed that a lot of the feedback on AliExpress comes from Russia, Eastern European countries, and the assorted former Soviet Union satellite states. Do you know why it is so popular there? Is it a lack of local web shops? 1. All those ex-commie nations have high double digit VAT and import tarifs. 2. Western brands do not contest for that market 3. Those guys had no other choice other than buying Chinese goods since the fall of the Soviet bloc. What has changed now is that they can buy from China without middlemen
  - nomercy400 10y ago
    Try Aliexpress. That one is for consumers. Resellers go to Alibaba. And Taobao is yet another marketplace, but focussed on China. And have a look around for a month. Bookmark Aliexpress, and every time you look something up on Amazon, see if you can find a comparable product on Aliexpress.
- jarboot 10y ago
  As someone younger on HN, I see a lot of people my age buying stuff from Taobao even though it is specifically for Chinese people. There's a lot of hype around counterfeit luxury clothing and shoes ('reps' of nike, adidas, supreme, etc.) because they are extremely cheap on Chinese sites but look close (and sometimes '1:1') to the real thing. They use agents that speak Chinese and live in China that can order what the consumer wants on Taobao and then ship it to them in the west independently. You can see some examples and discussion on /r/fashionreps. Even beyond that, plenty of sports fans I know buy jerseys from Alibaba because the official ones are way too expensive for young people in the Midwest. I also personally know a guy that makes money using a python bot to get shoes when they release and resell them with a markup when they're sold out. It might be more difficult to use some of these sites, but for many the savings are worth the inconvenience of navigating foreign sites, and there's a big market for the goods it sells.
  - mistermann 10y ago
    Thanks for that info I am going to look into this, very interesting!
  - iamatworknow 10y ago
    >Even beyond that, plenty of sports fans I know buy jerseys from Alibaba because the official ones are way too expensive for young people in the Midwest. Let's just say someone I know is a big NBA fan, and he purchased 4 jerseys off of Aliexpress for the price of one authentic jersey, with no discernable difference in quality or production, even while wearing one to a game and comparing the stitching to those on the rack in the gift shop. I don't think jerseys are listed on Aliexpress anymore, though. At least not the last time I looked.
  - dghughes 10y ago
    And then you find out that fire retardant in clothing is an actual thing and necessary. The clothing is cheap for a reason not just licensing costs.
- kbart 10y ago
  "When I'm looking for stuff on Amazon, it is often difficult to find out whether they ship to my country and if so, how much the delivery costs. Often, great deals from the US don't ship to Europe. " Hundred times yes! I can buy same thing from Aliexpress or Gearbest cheaper than Amazon and get it shipped for free or negligible cost to my doorstep. Also, I'm sure that what I see there, I can get with no hassle. Amazon search sucks and finding shipping information sucks even more. What's the rationale behind hiding a shipping fee and if certain item ships to my country at all? My current places to go for online shopping: Aliexpress > Gearbest > Ebay > Amazon.
tyingq 10y ago
It doesn't mention what the "blacklist" actually is, or does. Does it actually prevent purchases on world.taobao.com from US buyers? Edit: Found the actual document "2016 Out of Cycle Review - Notorious Markets". Pretty much a curated list of where to buy counterfeit stuff, if you're so inclined: https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/2016-Out-of-Cycle-Review-Notorious-Markets.pdf https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/2016-Out-of-Cycle-Revie...
- chrischen 10y ago
  "Being blacklisted does not carry any penalties, but it is a blow to Alibaba, ..." So apparently nothing.
  - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
    If anyone thinks it's a blow to Alibaba that US government says "some things on Alibaba are counterfeit", I will add them to my personal ignore-what-these-people-are-saying list. Because come on, it's blitheringly obvious to anyone who's casually browsed Alibaba for more than three minutes that some of the goods are counterfeit. It's like saying "you can find pictures of naked people on Google". That's not much of a blow to Google, is it?
    - chrshawkes 10y ago
      Actually it's nothing like that, but thanks for the comment.
    - lightbyte 10y ago
      >Because come on, it's blitheringly obvious to anyone who's casually browsed Alibaba for more than three minutes that some of the goods are counterfeit. To add to that, my understanding has been if if you explicitly WANT counterfeit stuff (since it's normally a lot cheaper) you can get it there. This is basically a feature for me.
- SparkyMcUnicorn 10y ago
  The article says "Being blacklisted does not carry any penalties". I'm pretty sure it's just a reputation thing.
bskdjx 10y ago
Hmmm I've received so much counterfeit stuff from amazon. I wonder if we'll also block the American company of a politically well connected billionaire? Well I can dream.
- electic 10y ago
  Seems like this is for luxury goods which when purchased, might make you seem less fashionable to someone with a sharp eye at a NYC fashion party. However, Amazon selling counterfeit Apple chargers that can burn your house down and probably kill someone is ok.
- sschueller 10y ago
  Amazon does an extremely poor job. There are items that are clearly counterfeit, review after review states it, yet the item is still available. For example, there is a device called the "Split-Ender" which is only sold directly. The items is not sold on Amazon yet there are tons of fakes on Amazon [1]. The manufacture seems unable to get Amazon to remove them. Amazon doesn't even have to distinguish if the items is real or not in this case. The device should not be on Amazon, period. [1] https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=split+ender https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3...
  - tim333 10y ago
    Amazon must be aware of that stuff and deliberately allow it. I'd question whether it benefits them though - I've kind of been put off buying there as it's hard to know what you'll get.
    - tyingq 10y ago
      It seems deliberate, as they seem to have a handle on not allowing counterfeits for big name designer goods (rolex, handbags, perfume, and so on). The counterfeits there seems to be mostly around electronics, household goods, and so on.
      - 10y ago
wcummings 10y ago
In this context "IP rights" are a protectionist policy, just one that happens to benefit America, which exports heaps of IP. If it's the same handbags made in the same factory but cheaper...
beambot 10y ago
Lollipuff (YC W'13 - https://www.lollipuff.com https://www.lollipuff.com) was started precisely to address this counterfeit issue -- focused on high-end women's fashion. We built out a backend that allows us to authenticate luxury goods using photos alone. It works through a combination of (1) very specific photos; (2) automated software; and (3) a trained (non-expert) authenticator. We recently expanded from being just a P2P auction service (competing with the likes of Alibaba & eBay) to offering our Authentication Tool as a service, which can compliment their sites: https://www.lollipuff.com/authentication-service/ https://www.lollipuff.com/authentication-service/
- braythwayt 10y ago
  I agree that your comment is relevant and contributes to the discussion. A disagree that complaining about downvotes is relevant, and feel it detracts from the discussion. So... Neither an up- nor down- vote from me ;-)
  - beambot 10y ago
    Apologies for the kvetching; I just removed the downvote complaint. I was just peeved to see my solution-centric comment downvoted into the negatives while mere complaints were being pushed to the top.
- rahimnathwani 10y ago
  I didn't downvote you, but your comment is irrelevant. The claim is not that taobao has listings duping customers, who receive counterfeit items when expecting licensed ones. It's that customers are knowingly able to buy counterfeit items. In some cases, sellers of counterfeit goods in China even offer different quality options for the same product, which the original brands do not.
  - beambot 10y ago
    (I removed the downvote kvetching; sorry.) Taobao listings are peer to peer (somewhat anyway; it's also partly like Amazon retailers). So it's other users that are intentionally duping buyers, not Taobao directly. It's possible (likely?) that Taobao is complicit and turning a blind eye. But it's also difficult for them to address in any meaningful way; how are they supposed to obtain the necessary expertise...? We know for a fact that other P2P marketplaces (eg. eBay) do care and have spent an insane amount of resources to combat the problem (or been litigated by brands) -- and yet they haven't been able to crack authentication at scale. Our tool addresses that problem. It is relevant... because it is part of the solution to this problem: How can you authenticate brand-name items in a resale market. (Worth noting: The brands aren't motivated to help in the resale market. They want everyone to buy new and reap 1000% markup... which is why they crack down on counterfeits.)
stevesun21 10y ago
I can buy a lot of counterfeit stuff on eBay and Amazon. Blacklisting Alibaba sounds to me is like that U.S gov is trying to block other companies to compete with U.S companies, like eBay and Amazon.
- dbmikus 10y ago
  Very possible. A tit for tat measure. China does the same thing to US companies. Not that I'm advocating the behavior of either side.
  - A_Crazy_Idea 10y ago
    I think we should return this tit for tat measure and stop using these product aggregation sites altogether. I think at this point any idiot with money can fill a warehouse with product and some sql tables and pass PCI. There's really no technical reason any longer we have to trust single retailers. It's simply momentum and finance and it really doesn't scale beyond obfuscated-pyramid scheme technology here, there's no value or service being provided by these companies, they're simply middle men.
    - freehunter 10y ago
      As a consumer, there is a massive benefit to me of shopping online with a single retailer: if my card gets compromised, I know exactly who did it. I don't have a million accounts on a million sites with my credit card sitting in a million databases. I have an account at Amazon, Amazon has my card, and if that card gets popped, it's Amazon's fault. Remember when people didn't trust online shopping? Amazon (and to some extent, eBay/PayPal) was responsible for changing that perception. There are very few websites I would type my card number into.
      - umanwizard 10y ago
        Why's it such a huge deal if your credit card gets compromised? Just check your balance every few days. If you see anything suspicious, do a chargeback and have the card cancelled.
ww520 10y ago
OT: does NTY have a voting ring? Seeing lots of posts from them these days.
- icameron 10y ago
  Also OT: but how do I view the article? I get subscription advertisements and the link won't show the article. How are you all reading the article?
  - rando444 10y ago
    If you ever have any problems viewing an article, click on 'web' up at the top and then open the link from google. If you still have problems, try using an incognito window.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
jister 10y ago
Hmm...I don't think it's not about counterfeit sales. It's more on politics.
throwawayqts 10y ago
wowie......... this obviously goes too for ali express? I read the article because I'm a U.S. citizen and have ordered things from ali express (I'm not in the u.s. tho'). It says only "Being blacklisted does not carry any penalties, but it is a blow to Alibaba." As an individual, or if I were in the u.s., can I continue to order non-namebrand things from Ali express? What exactly is the "blacklist"? Like everyone else, I'm careful not to do stuff like trade with embargod country's etc. Question: What does this mean for individuals? (Like me.) Or small businesses for that case. Actually the things I order aren't name-brand anyway but I'm curious if this has any other meaning other than "buyer be ware"....
hackalaugh 10y ago
So does this mean there are good deals on alibaba?
imjustsaying 10y ago
I intentionally bought a 512GB usb drive from Taobao to see what would happen. It was something ridiculously cheap like $10, far cheaper than any other 512GB at the time. Taobao said I needed to return the product to the seller in order to get a refund. I told them I would send it to Taobao corporate or the police, but under no other circumstances would I ship counterfeit materials through the mail, reinforcing the supplies of the scammer and perpetuating the fraud. I sent them a disk space audit demonstrating that there was in fact only 32GB on the device, showed them articles showing that there was only one other 512GB USB drive on the market at the time and that it cost well over 10x the amount listed. I invited them repeatedly to view the product itself, but I only ever got the same standard canned response to return the counterfeit products to the seller.
- sandworm101 10y ago
  Thats not a counterfiet good. It's fraud, it's claiming something is more than it is, but it isnt counterfeit unless they are abusing trademarks. Which marks were at issue? You might consider contacting them as they are as much a victim as you.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - guelo 10y ago
    It's sad that trademarks are considered a bigger issue than rampant fraud.
    - labster 10y ago
      Corporations are people, my friend. As for what the rest of us are, the jury's still out on that one.
  - imjustsaying 10y ago
    You're correct, initially it was merely fraud, but counterfeit dimensions soon emerged. I should also mention that when I received the package, the USB drive was inside of Kingston USB drive packaging, which surprised me because they didn't describe it as a Kingston product on the listing page. I can suppose the rationale for Kingston packaging was that Kingston was the only provider of 512GBs at the time, and its addition was a way to sell the fraud's narrative should any doubt later arise, such as after getting mysteriously corrupted data whenever more than 32GB was used. I had live chats about the case with different customer service agents over a period of months. However, every time I spoke about the issue, it was like the previous hour-long conversations had never happened. Each time, I had to get the agent up to speed on the situation from the ground up, resending the images of evidence, re-explaining that I would be happy to return the item but only to the police or to Taobao corporate instead of resupplying and becoming the accomplice of a suspected criminal. As far as I could tell, there was no internal procedure for investigating the possibility of fraud or counterfeit. The customer service agents only ever viewed the case through a general return heuristic. The first and final recommendation was always to "return the product to the seller."
finid 10y ago
After watching/reading [1], I did a search for "fake rice" on Alibaba and got back almost 500 results. [1] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-38402696 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-38402696
sandworm101 10y ago
Realize that submissions to these lists come from industry reps. They are not created by some team of investigators. There is no budget for such things. Groups like the MPAA submit names and a yearly list is issued. Thats why nobody beyond diplomats pay any attention. It's only about the headline.
intrasight 10y ago
I don't even see what it has to do with me as an American shopper as they are a Chinese shopping portal.

Interesting, it seems like they're trying to protect Amazon. I can understand people moving from Amazon to Aliexpress though. When I'm looking for stuff on Amazon, it is often difficult to find out whether they ship to my country and if so, how much the delivery costs. Often, great deals from the US don't ship to Europe. On Aliexpress, everything ships everywhere. You type in you country and currency and have full information.

tyingq 10y ago
The article says it's only the Taobao site.
pen2l 10y ago
Huh, is Alibaba really very comparable to Amazon for the everyday consumer? I was under the impression that they weren't exactly targeting the same consumers. I thought Alibaba was moreso for resellers, folks who buy in large quantities and such to sell it themselves later. Would you recommend that I, an American, start looking at Alibaba as an Amazon alternative for everyday things?
- tyingq 10y ago
  Their aliexpress.com site is targeted at end consumers, lower quantities, etc.
- CapitalistCartr 10y ago
  I do. My wife buys fabric there literally 1/5 to 1/10 the price at the local store. Its only practical for some things, though.
  - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
    A friend of mine has started buying cotton swabs (Q-tips) from AliExpress, because it's 1/10th the price at local grocery stores. I also recently learned that we have no cheap generic paracetamol over here, because the pharma guys did a consumer study and found people preferred the $8/packet ones to the $1/packet ones, even though they contain the exact same ingredients, as the latter were perceived as low quality/dodgy.
- robert_foss 10y ago
  AliExpress is for consumers. Taobao and Alibaba sell more things in bulk.
- the_duke 10y ago
  Alibaba.com is for retailers. taobao is only targeting China. aliexpress.com is an international and consumer facing. Expect considerably cheaper prices, and delivery times from 2-6 weeks.
  - rconti 10y ago
    Or, as I call it, AliEventually.
    - umanwizard 10y ago
      Well yeah, the stuff is probably being sent over on a container ship. Have you ever tried shipping something by airmail from a faraway country to the US? It would cost way more than the value of the actual product.
      - kogepathic 10y ago
        > It would cost way more than the value of the actual product. Shipping from China is already subsidized by postal rates from the rest of the developed world[0]. Shipping in a container on a boat isn't free, and probably costs more than you pay now when buying something from China: "As part of this reform process, China will be transitioned in 2016 into a category for more developed nations, who generally pay higher terminal dues." [0] http://fortune.com/2015/03/11/united-nations-subsidy-chinese-shipping http://fortune.com/2015/03/11/united-nations-subsidy-chinese...
        vacri 10y ago
        Shipping in a container isn't free, but it's very very cheap. Earlier in the year, someone here on HN mentioned that if you have stuff to store, it's cheaper to put it in a shipping container and have it sail the seas, than it is to put in a local storage warehouse. That is, space on ships is cheaper than space in buildings. Or another anecdote: we grow oranges here in my home state of Victoria, Australia. However, oranges grown in Brazil, flash-frozen, and shipped across the pacific are moderately cheaper than the local ones. Of course, they taste like cardboard, but they have sailed almost halfway around the earth.
- Bedon292 10y ago
  If you are willing to wait for the shipping they are great. If something sells for $25 on amazon you might find it for $6 on Alibaba but with minimum quantities which are not consumer friendly, plus bulk shipping. Then on Aliexpress, the consumer level one, you might find the same thing for $15 for each one shipped. Source: Christmas shopping. Ended up having to go with Amazon because of shipping times and waiting too late, but its worth the wait for some things.
  - Declanomous 10y ago
    One thing to point out: the more commoditized something is, the better it is to buy on Aliexpress. If you've ever seen the same thing sold by two different manufacturers, that's a sure sign you can buy it on aliexpress for a fraction of the price. The simpler the item, the better. Consumer items I've bought that have turned out to be nearly identical to what I would have bought in the US: bike tools and parts (wire ferrules, valve wrenches, chain whips, cassette tools, wear indicators) inexpensive power bricks, earphones, small hand tools (bit sets, secure screwdrivers, pin vices, wire strippers and diagonal cutters), zip ties, etc. I've also bought a load of electronics (components, microcontrollers, and assembled items). This is a little difficult, because they are generally cut corners. This is terrible for batteries, not great for power supplies, and generally is imperceptible for LEDs. If you need a weird adapter or jack, this is definitely the place to find it. Looking for stuff can be hard though, because chinese names for things aren't always the same as English ones. I don't bother with anything that is less than 25% cheaper from China, unless it is a better product or comes directly from the manufacturer (there are some company stores on Aliexpress). I basically assume I'm self-insuring for defective products. I have never been screwed on a claim, but I have received a lot of products that are just poor quality. It is pretty much the perfect place to buy white elephant gifts though. I ordered a ton of 2x2 rubik's cubes last year (and a few larger ones) and gave them to all my friends. I'd say probably a quarter arrived totally destroyed, since most were just mailed in cheap padded envelopes and they are pretty fragile, but they were so cheap I didn't care. The entertainment value was definitely worth it, a 2x2 cube is much harder to solve than it looks, and I'm pretty sure some of my friends still haven't forgiven me for that gift. Anyways, you can buy most of this stuff on Amazon or Ebay with a modest mark-up. It will be listed as "fulfilled from China" or something similar. It's a good option if you are worried about fraud, since you'll be dealing with eBay/Amazon customer service, rather than Aliexpress. I would recommend buying something cheap off AE just to give it a shot though.
- paganel 10y ago
  > Huh, is Alibaba really very comparable to Amazon for the everyday consumer I live in Romania and around these parts Aliexpress already has a big presence among your "everyday consumer". I visit the Postal office closest to my workplace every week and during the last or so year I've started seeing more and more young people (under 25, mostly women) who had come to collect the stuff they had ordered from China (most probably from Aliexpress). Around these parts Amazon is only known and partially used for purchasing books.
  - Freak_NL 10y ago
    I've noticed that a lot of the feedback on AliExpress comes from Russia, Eastern European countries, and the assorted former Soviet Union satellite states. Do you know why it is so popular there? Is it a lack of local web shops? From what I can tell AliExpress is mostly popular as a cheap source of (low voltage) electrical components here in The Netherlands. People buy clothing from local web shops (or traditional brick and mortar shops) due to speed, quality, and friendly returns policies though.
    - paganel 10y ago
      > Do you know why it is so popular there? Is it a lack of local web shops? I don't think it's because of the lack of local web shop, at least not in Romania's case. I think it's only a question of costs, it seems that for certain items whatever comes from China is that much less expensive compared to what's available locally, even accounting for the long-ish waiting times and the customs duty.
    - baybal2 10y ago
      >I've noticed that a lot of the feedback on AliExpress comes from Russia, Eastern European countries, and the assorted former Soviet Union satellite states. Do you know why it is so popular there? Is it a lack of local web shops? 1. All those ex-commie nations have high double digit VAT and import tarifs. 2. Western brands do not contest for that market 3. Those guys had no other choice other than buying Chinese goods since the fall of the Soviet bloc. What has changed now is that they can buy from China without middlemen
- nomercy400 10y ago
  Try Aliexpress. That one is for consumers. Resellers go to Alibaba. And Taobao is yet another marketplace, but focussed on China. And have a look around for a month. Bookmark Aliexpress, and every time you look something up on Amazon, see if you can find a comparable product on Aliexpress.
jarboot 10y ago
As someone younger on HN, I see a lot of people my age buying stuff from Taobao even though it is specifically for Chinese people. There's a lot of hype around counterfeit luxury clothing and shoes ('reps' of nike, adidas, supreme, etc.) because they are extremely cheap on Chinese sites but look close (and sometimes '1:1') to the real thing. They use agents that speak Chinese and live in China that can order what the consumer wants on Taobao and then ship it to them in the west independently. You can see some examples and discussion on /r/fashionreps. Even beyond that, plenty of sports fans I know buy jerseys from Alibaba because the official ones are way too expensive for young people in the Midwest. I also personally know a guy that makes money using a python bot to get shoes when they release and resell them with a markup when they're sold out. It might be more difficult to use some of these sites, but for many the savings are worth the inconvenience of navigating foreign sites, and there's a big market for the goods it sells.
- mistermann 10y ago
  Thanks for that info I am going to look into this, very interesting!
- iamatworknow 10y ago
  >Even beyond that, plenty of sports fans I know buy jerseys from Alibaba because the official ones are way too expensive for young people in the Midwest. Let's just say someone I know is a big NBA fan, and he purchased 4 jerseys off of Aliexpress for the price of one authentic jersey, with no discernable difference in quality or production, even while wearing one to a game and comparing the stitching to those on the rack in the gift shop. I don't think jerseys are listed on Aliexpress anymore, though. At least not the last time I looked.
- dghughes 10y ago
  And then you find out that fire retardant in clothing is an actual thing and necessary. The clothing is cheap for a reason not just licensing costs.
kbart 10y ago
"When I'm looking for stuff on Amazon, it is often difficult to find out whether they ship to my country and if so, how much the delivery costs. Often, great deals from the US don't ship to Europe. " Hundred times yes! I can buy same thing from Aliexpress or Gearbest cheaper than Amazon and get it shipped for free or negligible cost to my doorstep. Also, I'm sure that what I see there, I can get with no hassle. Amazon search sucks and finding shipping information sucks even more. What's the rationale behind hiding a shipping fee and if certain item ships to my country at all? My current places to go for online shopping: Aliexpress > Gearbest > Ebay > Amazon.

tyingq 10y ago

It doesn't mention what the "blacklist" actually is, or does. Does it actually prevent purchases on world.taobao.com from US buyers? Edit: Found the actual document "2016 Out of Cycle Review - Notorious Markets". Pretty much a curated list of where to buy counterfeit stuff, if you're so inclined: https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/2016-Out-of-Cycle-Review-Notorious-Markets.pdf https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/2016-Out-of-Cycle-Revie...

chrischen 10y ago
"Being blacklisted does not carry any penalties, but it is a blow to Alibaba, ..." So apparently nothing.
- semi-extrinsic 10y ago
  If anyone thinks it's a blow to Alibaba that US government says "some things on Alibaba are counterfeit", I will add them to my personal ignore-what-these-people-are-saying list. Because come on, it's blitheringly obvious to anyone who's casually browsed Alibaba for more than three minutes that some of the goods are counterfeit. It's like saying "you can find pictures of naked people on Google". That's not much of a blow to Google, is it?
  - chrshawkes 10y ago
    Actually it's nothing like that, but thanks for the comment.
  - lightbyte 10y ago
    >Because come on, it's blitheringly obvious to anyone who's casually browsed Alibaba for more than three minutes that some of the goods are counterfeit. To add to that, my understanding has been if if you explicitly WANT counterfeit stuff (since it's normally a lot cheaper) you can get it there. This is basically a feature for me.
SparkyMcUnicorn 10y ago
The article says "Being blacklisted does not carry any penalties". I'm pretty sure it's just a reputation thing.

bskdjx 10y ago

Hmmm I've received so much counterfeit stuff from amazon. I wonder if we'll also block the American company of a politically well connected billionaire? Well I can dream.

electic 10y ago
Seems like this is for luxury goods which when purchased, might make you seem less fashionable to someone with a sharp eye at a NYC fashion party. However, Amazon selling counterfeit Apple chargers that can burn your house down and probably kill someone is ok.
sschueller 10y ago
Amazon does an extremely poor job. There are items that are clearly counterfeit, review after review states it, yet the item is still available. For example, there is a device called the "Split-Ender" which is only sold directly. The items is not sold on Amazon yet there are tons of fakes on Amazon [1]. The manufacture seems unable to get Amazon to remove them. Amazon doesn't even have to distinguish if the items is real or not in this case. The device should not be on Amazon, period. [1] https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=split+ender https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3...
- tim333 10y ago
  Amazon must be aware of that stuff and deliberately allow it. I'd question whether it benefits them though - I've kind of been put off buying there as it's hard to know what you'll get.
  - tyingq 10y ago
    It seems deliberate, as they seem to have a handle on not allowing counterfeits for big name designer goods (rolex, handbags, perfume, and so on). The counterfeits there seems to be mostly around electronics, household goods, and so on.
    - 10y ago

wcummings 10y ago

In this context "IP rights" are a protectionist policy, just one that happens to benefit America, which exports heaps of IP. If it's the same handbags made in the same factory but cheaper...

beambot 10y ago

Lollipuff (YC W'13 - https://www.lollipuff.com https://www.lollipuff.com) was started precisely to address this counterfeit issue -- focused on high-end women's fashion. We built out a backend that allows us to authenticate luxury goods using photos alone. It works through a combination of (1) very specific photos; (2) automated software; and (3) a trained (non-expert) authenticator. We recently expanded from being just a P2P auction service (competing with the likes of Alibaba & eBay) to offering our Authentication Tool as a service, which can compliment their sites: https://www.lollipuff.com/authentication-service/ https://www.lollipuff.com/authentication-service/

braythwayt 10y ago
I agree that your comment is relevant and contributes to the discussion. A disagree that complaining about downvotes is relevant, and feel it detracts from the discussion. So... Neither an up- nor down- vote from me ;-)
- beambot 10y ago
  Apologies for the kvetching; I just removed the downvote complaint. I was just peeved to see my solution-centric comment downvoted into the negatives while mere complaints were being pushed to the top.
rahimnathwani 10y ago
I didn't downvote you, but your comment is irrelevant. The claim is not that taobao has listings duping customers, who receive counterfeit items when expecting licensed ones. It's that customers are knowingly able to buy counterfeit items. In some cases, sellers of counterfeit goods in China even offer different quality options for the same product, which the original brands do not.
- beambot 10y ago
  (I removed the downvote kvetching; sorry.) Taobao listings are peer to peer (somewhat anyway; it's also partly like Amazon retailers). So it's other users that are intentionally duping buyers, not Taobao directly. It's possible (likely?) that Taobao is complicit and turning a blind eye. But it's also difficult for them to address in any meaningful way; how are they supposed to obtain the necessary expertise...? We know for a fact that other P2P marketplaces (eg. eBay) do care and have spent an insane amount of resources to combat the problem (or been litigated by brands) -- and yet they haven't been able to crack authentication at scale. Our tool addresses that problem. It is relevant... because it is part of the solution to this problem: How can you authenticate brand-name items in a resale market. (Worth noting: The brands aren't motivated to help in the resale market. They want everyone to buy new and reap 1000% markup... which is why they crack down on counterfeits.)

stevesun21 10y ago

I can buy a lot of counterfeit stuff on eBay and Amazon. Blacklisting Alibaba sounds to me is like that U.S gov is trying to block other companies to compete with U.S companies, like eBay and Amazon.

dbmikus 10y ago
Very possible. A tit for tat measure. China does the same thing to US companies. Not that I'm advocating the behavior of either side.
- A_Crazy_Idea 10y ago
  I think we should return this tit for tat measure and stop using these product aggregation sites altogether. I think at this point any idiot with money can fill a warehouse with product and some sql tables and pass PCI. There's really no technical reason any longer we have to trust single retailers. It's simply momentum and finance and it really doesn't scale beyond obfuscated-pyramid scheme technology here, there's no value or service being provided by these companies, they're simply middle men.
  - freehunter 10y ago
    As a consumer, there is a massive benefit to me of shopping online with a single retailer: if my card gets compromised, I know exactly who did it. I don't have a million accounts on a million sites with my credit card sitting in a million databases. I have an account at Amazon, Amazon has my card, and if that card gets popped, it's Amazon's fault. Remember when people didn't trust online shopping? Amazon (and to some extent, eBay/PayPal) was responsible for changing that perception. There are very few websites I would type my card number into.
    - umanwizard 10y ago
      Why's it such a huge deal if your credit card gets compromised? Just check your balance every few days. If you see anything suspicious, do a chargeback and have the card cancelled.

ww520 10y ago

OT: does NTY have a voting ring? Seeing lots of posts from them these days.

icameron 10y ago
Also OT: but how do I view the article? I get subscription advertisements and the link won't show the article. How are you all reading the article?
- rando444 10y ago
  If you ever have any problems viewing an article, click on 'web' up at the top and then open the link from google. If you still have problems, try using an incognito window.

deleted 10y ago

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jister 10y ago

Hmm...I don't think it's not about counterfeit sales. It's more on politics.

throwawayqts 10y ago

wowie......... this obviously goes too for ali express? I read the article because I'm a U.S. citizen and have ordered things from ali express (I'm not in the u.s. tho'). It says only "Being blacklisted does not carry any penalties, but it is a blow to Alibaba." As an individual, or if I were in the u.s., can I continue to order non-namebrand things from Ali express? What exactly is the "blacklist"? Like everyone else, I'm careful not to do stuff like trade with embargod country's etc. Question: What does this mean for individuals? (Like me.) Or small businesses for that case. Actually the things I order aren't name-brand anyway but I'm curious if this has any other meaning other than "buyer be ware"....

hackalaugh 10y ago

So does this mean there are good deals on alibaba?

imjustsaying 10y ago

I intentionally bought a 512GB usb drive from Taobao to see what would happen. It was something ridiculously cheap like $10, far cheaper than any other 512GB at the time. Taobao said I needed to return the product to the seller in order to get a refund. I told them I would send it to Taobao corporate or the police, but under no other circumstances would I ship counterfeit materials through the mail, reinforcing the supplies of the scammer and perpetuating the fraud. I sent them a disk space audit demonstrating that there was in fact only 32GB on the device, showed them articles showing that there was only one other 512GB USB drive on the market at the time and that it cost well over 10x the amount listed. I invited them repeatedly to view the product itself, but I only ever got the same standard canned response to return the counterfeit products to the seller.

sandworm101 10y ago
Thats not a counterfiet good. It's fraud, it's claiming something is more than it is, but it isnt counterfeit unless they are abusing trademarks. Which marks were at issue? You might consider contacting them as they are as much a victim as you.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- guelo 10y ago
  It's sad that trademarks are considered a bigger issue than rampant fraud.
  - labster 10y ago
    Corporations are people, my friend. As for what the rest of us are, the jury's still out on that one.
- imjustsaying 10y ago
  You're correct, initially it was merely fraud, but counterfeit dimensions soon emerged. I should also mention that when I received the package, the USB drive was inside of Kingston USB drive packaging, which surprised me because they didn't describe it as a Kingston product on the listing page. I can suppose the rationale for Kingston packaging was that Kingston was the only provider of 512GBs at the time, and its addition was a way to sell the fraud's narrative should any doubt later arise, such as after getting mysteriously corrupted data whenever more than 32GB was used. I had live chats about the case with different customer service agents over a period of months. However, every time I spoke about the issue, it was like the previous hour-long conversations had never happened. Each time, I had to get the agent up to speed on the situation from the ground up, resending the images of evidence, re-explaining that I would be happy to return the item but only to the police or to Taobao corporate instead of resupplying and becoming the accomplice of a suspected criminal. As far as I could tell, there was no internal procedure for investigating the possibility of fraud or counterfeit. The customer service agents only ever viewed the case through a general return heuristic. The first and final recommendation was always to "return the product to the seller."

finid 10y ago

After watching/reading [1], I did a search for "fake rice" on Alibaba and got back almost 500 results. [1] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-38402696 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-38402696

sandworm101 10y ago

Realize that submissions to these lists come from industry reps. They are not created by some team of investigators. There is no budget for such things. Groups like the MPAA submit names and a yearly list is issued. Thats why nobody beyond diplomats pay any attention. It's only about the headline.

intrasight 10y ago

I don't even see what it has to do with me as an American shopper as they are a Chinese shopping portal.