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Frequent sauna bathing can reduce the risk of dementia
- jey 10y agoOr is it just that healthy people can use the sauna more frequently?
- knodi123 10y agoor in other words, "Maybe these researchers are absolute morons."
- SomeCallMeTim 10y agoI do wonder if there was a confounding factor that they didn't successfully isolate. "General health" seems like an obvious one, but some other factor might be more subtle.
- pg314 10y agoFrom the abstract: analysis [was] adjusted for age, alcohol consumption, body mass index, systolic blood pressure, smoking status, Type 2 diabetes, previous myocardial infarction, resting heart rate and serum low-density lipoprotein cholesterol [1]. Of course, that doesn't rule out all confounding factors. [1] http://ageing.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2016/12/07/ageing.afw212.abstract?sid=6d9f2e72-6503-48c2-b63f-1dc27c24859f http://ageing.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2016/12/07/ag...
- pg314 10y agoHave you read the study, which is published in a peer-reviewed journal, before making this statement? If not, your comment doesn't add anything useful to the discussion.
- knodi123 10y agoYes, my comment made a statement that added to the conversation. Maybe you missed it? I'll expand for you. I have studied statistics, and I understand that correlation does not imply causation. However, if you're going to allege that a professional scientific statistician failed to even consider the most trivial and obvious of non-causative correlations, then you're being insulting. And it's fine to insult scientists. They're not special snowflakes. Do it, if they have a track record of lies, or deceit, or carelessness, or stupidity. But be aware when you're doing it, and why. Don't just blithely say "Hey guys, have we considered the possibility that these scientists are either drooling idiots or evil liars?" That's uncharitable to an extreme. And yes, I've read it. They are not, as OP suggested, drooling idiots or evil liars.
- pg314 10y agoI misunderstood your comment as agreeing with jey's comment and I concur with your explanation here. My apologies and thank you for expanding.
- dunkelsten 10y agoWell, I tried to go to the sauna yesterday, but I forgot where it was.
- grenoire 10y agoAlthough the correlation may be due to a factor not accounted for, it is not overall health or welfare. As people already mentioned, sauna use is not exactly a luxury in Finland and people who use saunas commit to unhealthy behaviour too.
- serpix 10y agoAs a Finnish person this question makes no sense. Everybody goes to the sauna. The young, old, babies, the sick as well. I go to the sauna even with fever as it feels good with the chills.
- wyclif 10y agoIt's tough to go to the sauna in the USA because it's rare that health clubs/gyms have them. Particularly since the advent of "box" type gyms that imitate Crossfit.
- tass 10y agoAnd that requires a gym membership. There is no such thing as a standalone sauna that's not also a pickup spot, though would love to be proven wrong.
- blackguardx 10y agoThere are a few in SF. Archimedes Banya (www.banyasf.com/) is my favorite. They have a real Finnish sauna that gets up to 100 C (or over) along with a pool for cooling off that is less than 10 C. They also have two Russian baths and a Turkish bath (steam room). To get that real Finnish/Russian experience, you can even bring your own alcohol. Clothing is optional on one half and required on the other. There are others in SF, but I haven't been to them.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- hx87 10y agoDepends on how large the Nordic/Russian population in your area is--in Boston, New York, or Chicago there's plenty of options.
- chrismealy 10y agoIt would be hilarious if that baloney about "releasing toxins" was true for once.
- sporkologist 10y agoI'd bet that frequent yachting is also healthy.
- CalChris 10y agoI race and you had better have a second sport to keep you in shape for sailing. It's concentrated uncomfortable sitting around combined with the occasional panic. If you're buoy racing, it's on the rail, over the top and grind for 3-5 seconds and on the rail.
- zmb_ 10y agoThe study was done in Finland. There are estimated to be 2-3 million saunas for a population of 5.4 million. Majority of the population has access to a sauna at home. It is not a luxury.
- wyclif 10y agoAround how much would it cost on average in the US to install a sauna?
- ktRolster 10y agoI would guess much less than a swimming pool.
- dharma1 10y agoNot that much - depends on choice of materials and how much you are willing to DIY. There are good kits available with pre-fab structures
- kaitai 10y agoFrom $1000 to $5000 depending on size, luxury, and how much you do yourself vs hire out. There are a few things you want to be knowledgeable about if you do it yourself: moisture barriers and management, what kinds of woods to choose and what not to choose both for durability and comfort, and some understanding of stoves & rocks especially if you're picking your own rocks -- some types of rocks are prone to exploding and that's unpleasant. You can buy prefab kits (so the moisture barrier is built in and the benches are pre-assembled) from companies like Finnleo, or you can buy a stove alone from tons of places. Just make sure you're buying a stove that is truly meant for a sauna (throwing water/making steam) instead of a heater for an infrared room (different!).
- tsao 10y agoPeople who go to the sauna frequently might be more social or get more social interaction.
- coldtea 10y agoNot in Finland, where the study was conducted, and where almost everybody has a private sauna.
- brenfrow 10y agoI wonder if the frequency of going to the Sauna was tied to the frequency of going to gym to workout? Here in Seattle that is basically the only place you can go to find a sauna.
- ddeck 10y agoThe study was in Finland, where the sauna to population ratio is around 1:2. Also, the study claims to have adjusted for resting heart rate, which is a reasonable proxy for cardiovascular fitness: In analysis adjusted for age, alcohol consumption, body mass index, systolic blood pressure, smoking status, Type 2 diabetes, previous myocardial infarction, resting heart rate and serum low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, compared with men with only 1 sauna bathing session per week, the HR for dementia was 0.78 (95% CI: 0.57–1.06) for 2–3 sauna bathing sessions per week and 0.34 (95% CI: 0.16–0.71) for 4–7 sauna bathing sessions per week. The corresponding HRs for Alzheimer's disease were 0.80 (95% CI: 0.53–1.20) and 0.35 (95% CI: 0.14–0.90). http://m.ageing.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2016/12/07/ageing.afw212.abstract http://m.ageing.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2016/12/07/...
- sitkack 10y agoYou can also go the swimming pool, and no one will force you to swim (Queen Anne, Medgar Evers, Greenlake).
- fsloth 10y agoThere is a sauna in nearly every house in Finland, and if not, then municipal swimming halls offer an affordable alternative which everyone can afford. No need to join it with heavy exercise. Also, going to a sauna does not signal a socioeconomic status.
- pbhjpbhj 10y agoIs there no charge for municipal facilities? It's amazing if Finland has solved poverty to the level that every household can afford to set aside the space for a sauna and costs of running it. In the UK heat poverty is a widespread problem due to the costs of heating fuels. Presumably saunas are being run from geothermal sources to make it cheap enough?? I'm assuming saunas are cupboard sized, is that accurate or are all these homes dedicating a full room of space?
- Casseres 10y agoI just did a little research into the benefits of sauna use. I found a Reuters article published in 2015 which said, "men who spent time in a sauna seven times a week were less likely to die of heart problems or to die at all" [0]. So good news everbody: If you use a sauna seven times a week, there's a chance you could become immortal. [0] http://www.reuters.com/article/us-heart-health-saunas-idUSKBN0LR1LP20150223 http://www.reuters.com/article/us-heart-health-saunas-idUSKB...
- louprado 10y agoThere is similar study that showed a positive correlation between longevity and sauna use. Dr. Rhonda Patrick made the following comments its defense which I have pasted below. Most of the dismissing comments have a few common themes... 1.) They underestimate the prevalence of sauna use in Finnish culture, where the study was conducted. Finland has a population of around 5 million people, but has around 3 million saunas. Sauna access is ubiquitous and not strictly a marker for socioeconomic status. 2.) They disregard the fact that physical activity was adjusted for. In other words, sauna use wasn't simply correlated to overall physical activity in this case. 3.) They assume that because sauna use is correlated with longevity (after variables are adjusted for) that we should expect Finnish folk to live as long as the trees. In actual fact, while sauna use is probably a healthy habit... the Finnish have habits that undermine their health just like any other country. 4.) They forget about the evidence in lower organisms. In flies and worms heat stress (exposing them to a 30 min. heat chamber just one time) has been shown to boost lifespan by up to 15%. This effect was shown mediated by heat shock proteins (hsps), which are very robustly increased in humans during sauna use. I don't know for sure that the Finnish sauna longevity study has anything to do with an effect from HSPs... but it stands to reason! The fact that lifespan extension was demonstrated in two very different lower organisms also means that this effect is highly evolutionarily conserved. 5.) They also tend to forget that humans that have a gene variant in heat shock protein 70 that makes it active all the time have a significant increase chance of living to be a centenarian (at least 100 years old). For those interested, here's the sauna longevity study in question... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25705824 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25705824
- coldtea 10y ago>In flies and worms heat stress (exposing them to a 30 min. heat chamber just one time) has been shown to boost lifespan by up to 15%. Does that mean one can have the similar effects by sitting close to a heat source for half an hour some, without the full cost (or exact technique) of being into a sauna?
- tincholio 10y agoSitting next to the stove won't get the air round you to 70-80C, nor will you have the periodic steam that you get by pouring water onto the kiuas (sauna stove).
- abakker 10y agoPossibly related to dilating capillaries? Seems like my lasting impression every time I go into a sauna is that I get completely flushed, and that generally feels good. Maybe it proxies some of the benefits of cardio exercise?
- manmal 10y agoMy own hypothesis is that sweating helps the system get rid of heavy metals, which seem to play a part in dementia (e.g. aluminum > Alzheimer).
- sitkack 10y agoThe heat kills the fungus which just happens to be collecting aluminum. Aluminum is most likely not a _cause_.
- pbhjpbhj 10y agoInteresting, is that hypothesis research backed, any citations to share. Alzheimer's is an apparent family trait I'm keen to avoid.
- jnicholasp 10y agoI'm in the same familial boat. Have you looked into lithium supplementation yet?
- kaitai 10y agoCan you give any references to this idea? Never heard of fungus & aluminum interacting. Sauna is definitely anecdotally good for many skin conditions including fungal infections (my cite is only my own life).
- reitanqild 10y agoNitpick: I don't think aluminium is considered heavy.
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- erertooker 10y agoAll this is concluding is that of recreational activities spending time in the sauna is less harmful than the likely alternative ways people would fill that time.
- malydok 10y agoI wonder if this extends to hot spring usage as well, in Japan for example.
- ekianjo 10y agoJapan has a large percentage of senior dementia patients so this study seems very doubtful.
- coldtea 10y agoIt could still have much less senior dementia among those Japanese going to the hot springs compared to the vast majority that doesn't go.
- sushid 10y agoThey also have the highest life expectancy in the world. It could delay the onset but these individuals might live long enough to still be affected by it.
- ekianjo 10y agoprotects? thats not proven, this studies implies onlY correlation and it could still be very much a random result or there coulf be multiple factord not taken in consideration
- fnl 10y agoI couldn't agree more - its worrisome how many people still jump to causal conclusions from this kind of study...
- Tempest1981 10y agoWould a hot tub have a similar effect? I'm not really sure how or where I would install a sauna.
- dharma1 10y agoPossibly, definitely in terms of relaxation, but in terms of heat shock I don't think so - Saunas in Finland tend to be heated quite hot - usually 70–80 °C, sometimes more. Installing one isn't too difficult - if you have a garden, you can get outside kits which are generally as simple to build as sheds, or indoors kits that you'd put in a bathroom - probably when doing renovation anyway. I recommend ones from Harvia - I bought a medium sized one (fits 4 people) for about £1600 in the UK, and it took me and a couple of guys less than a day to put up. Here are some pics - I built it as a part of a loft conversion and ended up tiling the outside so it looks like a part of the bathroom. Normally these prefab kits look like a softwood cladded mini-room from both inside and outside http://imgur.com/a/MNEFD http://imgur.com/a/MNEFD The stove is usually 4kw-8kw so you'll need to add appropriate wiring and fuse/breaker. If anyone is contemplating building one, feel free to ask me for advice.
- rwmj 10y agoYou don't actually get in the water at 80°C right? I assume that would either kill you or severely burn.
- dharma1 10y agoI meant saunas get to 80C + - that's the air temperature
- pasiaj 10y agoYou can easily go to a sauna with temperatures exceeding 110° C. Hot as heck, but even kids do it. The starting temperature of World Sauna Championships was 110° C, with water/steam added every 30 seconds. The competition ended up killing a person, tho. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Sauna_Championships https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Sauna_Championships
- partycoder 10y agoBut sauna affects your fertility temporarily.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- hannob 10y agoThis whole text is such a prime example of what's wrong with science reporting. In the very first sentence a causal relationship is claimed ("Frequent sauna bathing can reduce the risk of dementia"). Yet the whole article doesn't live up to that claim, because it is very clear that the study purely relies on observational data and thus may very well just have found a confounder. However it doesn't even bother to mention or discuss that limitation.
- kosei 10y agoI felt the same way. If the authors did more to control for additional variables, then it was not clear in this article and that is fairly critical in terms of assessing the validity of the article's claim.
- coldtea 10y agoAnd this comment is a prime example of what's wrong with internet comments on scientific research. Usually all the basic concerns have been accounted for in the actual study. Whether an article in the mainstream press conveys that or not, is not important, since the article is just supposed to give a summary of the findings. It's seldom an issue of "those stupid PhDs and experts in their field, they didn't think of a confounder a random internet person can come up with in 5 seconds". Whoever wants to delve in can read the actual reports. And whoever wants to start the same practice (e.g. sauna here) would be foolish to do it based on one article anyway, they should consult with their doctor, and/or wait until a fuller consensus has been reached after several meta-studies (which can take decades).
- sambe 10y agoThe parent comment is a valid criticism of the quality of reporting, especially in the context of the overall standard right now. Claiming a causal relationship is an incorrect summary if the study did not show this. This is a very serious problem. If the particular study did in fact show good evidence of causality, that's worth specific highlighting because it's not that common. The parent is not saying they've thought of some obvious confounder that the study authors didn't. They've emphasized the importance of unknown unknowns and correlation vs causation. Raising the standard of science journalism is a noble goal, if you ask me. In this case, the authors are not making as strong a claim as the summary does.
- riprowan 10y agoSeems like you could do a great confirmation study with participants in Bikram / hot yoga where the temps are 105F for 90 mins with ~50% humidity. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the sauna cohort and the Bikram cohort are two extremely different sets of individuals with lots of different behaviors, so if the same effect was found in regular Bikram yogis a lot of variables might be able to be eliminated.
- msandford 10y agoThat temperature actually sounds like a break in Texas during the summer.
- vurpo 10y agoSaunas are much warmer than that. Regular sauna temperature in Finland is around 60°C - 90°C (which is around 140-190°F). This is the air temperature at which pretty much everybody goes to the sauna here, including the young, the old and sometimes even the ill.
- riprowan 10y agoFair enough to make the comparison perhaps a poor one. However I don't think that people do yoga in saunas, but rather remain seated, correct? The point I'm getting at is: isn't the question "what's the net rise in body temperature?" In hot yoga, the room isn't as hot as a sauna but you're exercising strenuously, so that the body becomes about as hot as you can safely heat a body, kinda like a sauna.
- koolba 10y agoWould regularly taking long showers have a similar impact or is the temperature shift not enough?
- watchdogtimer 10y agoCould this also explain why regular vigorous exercise (which also raises your body temperature and causes you to sweat) is good for your health?
- matwood 10y agoI live in the south and even though it gets hot and humid in the summer, it does not sound like it's hot enough to shock like this study proposes. I mostly enjoy the heat and humidity. When I lived out west in a much drier climate, my gym had a sauna that I used almost every day.
- kaitai 10y agoWhen I sauna, we usually like the sauna at about 180 degrees Fahrenheit, and that's usual for Finns. The heat difference is enough that even when it's 90-100 degrees F in the summer (and humid) where I live, it's nice to take a quick sauna as it makes the rest of the evening feel much cooler in comparison!
- desireco42 10y agoAnd lets all do sauna bathing all the time. :) If they discover that reading HN, we will totally feel justified.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- zo7 10y agoI wonder if taking a hot bath can have the same effect. I've been taking them more frequently recently and I've definitely noticed that my heart rate goes up (and that I smell a bit different than after taking a shower, presumably because I'm sweating more). I've been debating whether or not it's actually a healthy thing to be doing, but it's definitely relaxing and makes you fall asleep faster at night as it's getting colder in the winter.
- dao- 10y agoProbably has both good and bad side-effects. As someone with dry skin I'd prefer sauna over hot baths with soap.
- mtw 10y agoIs it possible that those undertaking frequent sauna bathing have overall healthier life habits? They might exercise more, eat better and sleep better than those who do not
- DoodleBuggy 10y agoSo is it the heat, or the sweating, or something else?
- mcv 10y agoI saw the headline and thought: This is the best news ever! I love saunas, but I don't even come close to once a week. It's a special treat for us that we do maybe once every few months. To do it daily or weekly, it needs to be part of your routine, and really close to home. But if the Finns really sauna this much more often than anyone else, then there should also be a noticeable difference in dementia between Finnish people and anyone else.