19 ms·

Warning: 2016 MacBook Pro is not compatible with Linux

428 points by danjoc 10y ago

solitone 10y ago
I've read this thread and see there are people who highly appreciate Apple's products and others who dislike them very much. Personally, I see plenty of Apple laptops used by my colleagues, and I can't help liking them. Since I want to run linux though, my question is: is there a specific (older) version of the MacBook Pro that I should consider?
hartator 10y ago
Apple is working so hard for us to not buy from them anymore. It's incredible.
- chktsk_fn 10y ago
  They are trying desperately.
pinkrooftop 10y ago
A more accurate description is that Linux isn't compatible with the new Macbook Pro. It's not Apple's job to make their laptop compatible with Linux.
- std_throwaway 10y ago
  Neither is any of the other manufacturers and yet, there is a public outcry if a notebook runs only the latest version of Windows. The real question is if Apple missed providing drivers or if it is deliberate.
  - adiabatty 10y ago
    Apple seems preternaturally constrained by engineer time; I can't see why they would devote a scarce resource like that to qualifying drivers for anything older than Windows 10 Anniversary Edition.
    - atomi 10y ago
      They have incredible amount of cash reserves. An investment in Linux drivers would go against their mission of OSX penetration. It has nothing to do with being unable to do it.
      - threeseed 10y ago
        It's not about the money. Apple prefers and has done a lot better with smaller, more focused teams.
      - SiVal 10y ago
        I agree that it's not a lack of resources, but I don't think it's about OSX penetration. They don't seem to care much about OSX penetration anymore. If they did, they would make a wider range of OSX devices and sell them at a more competitive price or license it to other hardware makers who would do so so they could get OSX into more hands. It's about control. Apple doesn't want YOU to replace OSX, they want to do it themselves with something they control, not let you gain control.
        pjmlp 10y ago
        Just like any other computer manufacturer, it was an historical accident that PC compatibles turned out differently. However thanks to the razor thin margins and the desktops being replaced by laptops with docking stations, they are a dying breed.
      - astrodust 10y ago
        You can't just throw money at a problem and it magically gets solved. Adding additional requirements puts strain on your core team, there's no way around it. If you could 100% compartmentalize this, have people working on it independently, maybe you could minimize impact, but how can you justify that spending? They know the open-source community is capable of working to fix problems like this.
        bluedino 10y ago
  - DannyBee 10y ago
    It's really missing linux drivers, from what reading bugs tells me. The keyboard and mouse are connected by SPI, etc. These are not super-proprietary things,it's just that a bit more work than wanted in linux. Linux also "lies" and claims to be Darwin, which causes the wrong ACPI thing to happen sometimes. This is pretty common (ie linux used to claim to be windows sometimes, too), but in this case, it gets exactly the wrong answer. (edit: Looks like mjg59 came along and gave a more detailed answer, you should lookat that)
  - jws 10y ago
    there is a public outcry if a notebook runs only the latest version of Windows The is no public outcry for the Acer Cloudbook I bought which tolerates Linux about as well as these new MacBooks.† Acer provides no drivers or other help. I don't see any reason to expect Apple to go beyond Acer to support unintended operating systems.‡ ␄ † It has trackpad driver problems, EFI mysteries, and a broken APIC (from Linux's viewpoint). With a couple hours hacking about you can get Debian installed, but each new kernel release is a crap shoot that can end in an unbootable machine for some as yet undiagnosed malady. Recent kernels result in it instantly deciding it has overheated and must power down immediately. ‡ I also don't see Acer submitting patches to my operating system, though that would be shocking.
- mderazon 10y ago
  Which sounds more accurate? 1. Windows is not compatible with the new MacBook pro 2. The new MacBook pro is not compatible with Windows ?
  - Tinyyy 10y ago
    1. Don't Linux users always complain about software not being compatible with Linux? Or is Linux not compatible with photoshop?
- teto-plz 10y ago
  Two things being compatible with each other is a symmetric relation, so the order doesn't matter.
  - gnicholas 10y ago
    When previous devices in a series were compatible, things are a little different. When I upgraded my iPhone to iOS 8 (in 2014), it stopped connecting via bluetooth with my car (2011 Subaru, FWIW). Apple told me it was a Subaru problem. I reiterated that the problem was caused by my upgrading iOS, and that nothing changed in my car. They said to get a firmware upgrade for my car. So incompatibility can be symmetric, but for people with an expectation based on prior compatibility, the party that whose update triggers the issue will be seen (fairly or not) as the cause.
  - evincarofautumn 10y ago
    True, but we usually phrase it in terms of the new thing’s compatibility with the old. In this case, Apple chose not to make their laptop compatible with the existing Linux. Nor, I think, should they necessarily have been expected to—it’s proprietary hardware, meant to run their proprietary OS.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    When describing abstract entities maybe, in real life, order always matters. E.g. if you sell an office suite and it doesn't support DOC and XLS files, it's your fault and users will call you for it. It's not Microsoft's job to go make sure Word and Excel work with your office suite.
  - lanna 10y ago
    no, it's not
  - pinkrooftop 10y ago
    logically yes, but the subtext of this usage in English adds hidden variables
- marcosdumay 10y ago
  What difference does it make for a buyer?
- walshemj 10y ago
  "OSX ain't done until Linux wont run" to adapt an old saying :-)
- pjmlp 10y ago
  Agreed, if people want a laptop compatible with GNU/Linux they should give their money to those that care to provide such laptops.
- ominous 10y ago
  It is not [insert place]'s job to respect [insert other place] ideals of liberty. It is not comedians' job to respect other's religious beliefs. It is not democracy's job to please everyone. What was your point again?
  - rawTruthHurts 10y ago
    If that wasn't the very definition of fanboyism...
  - pinkrooftop 10y ago
    apples and oranges
tedunangst 10y ago
This is obviously Microsoft's fault, right?
Symbiote 10y ago
Would anyone expect it to be compatible, this soon after release?
- awesomerobot 10y ago
  All previous models were compatible out of the box.
  - colemickens 10y ago
    That's not remotely true.
  - plorkyeran 10y ago
    There's a 17 month old bounty to add support for the 2015 MacBook: https://www.bountysource.com/issues/35422234-macbook8-1-12-inch-early-2015-keyboard-and-trackpad-don-t-work https://www.bountysource.com/issues/35422234-macbook8-1-12-i.... The 2012 Retina MBP also didn't work correctly at first but that was fixed quickly. The only models that were compatible out of the box were the ones which didn't change much.
    - awesomerobot 10y ago
      my bad
  - moondev 10y ago
    No way. Hacks abound
  - igravious 10y ago
    Demonstrably false.
nine_k 10y ago
There are other nice machines to run Linux on. AFAICT people buy Apple laptops to run macOS; for that you have pretty little choice.
- bdcravens 10y ago
  At one point Linus's machine of choice was a Macbook Air.
  - nine_k 10y ago
    Linus probably had easier time handling incompatibilities with the hardware. Most of us are not such proficient Linux hackers.
    - bdcravens 10y ago
      It seems to be pretty well supported: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBookAir https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBookAir https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/MacBook https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/MacBook
- maxxxxx 10y ago
  For a while a Macbook was the best Windows laptop. Not sure if that's still true.
  - chadgeidel 10y ago
    IMHO it's still up there. I don't know about the new ones, but I had a 2015 at my previous place of employment and Windows 10 on BootCamp is a very nice experience. I still haven't seen a laptop from "PC manufacturers" that comes close. I haven't physically used a SurfaceBook though.
    - legodt 10y ago
      The surface is nice, but it's a very different experience from the older, more solid macbook hardware. Most of the complaints about the new directions for macbook hardware (too light, not enough material, weird inconsistencies, and sacrificed keyboard mechanics) also appear on the Surface
chktsk_fn 10y ago
You can't have your (cake) and eat it too.
notadoc 10y ago
$2800 on a laptop with only 16GB RAM that you're going to run linux on anyway? If you're going to run Ubuntu, why not get a Lenovo for much less and with notably better legitimately "Pro" specs?
- elchief 10y ago
  Apple, maybe, actually fights for your privacy, while Lenovo definitely exploits it for money. Is there a secure enclave chip in Lenovo? Do you really trust their firmware?
  - gruez 10y ago
    I don't see how that's a relevant point if you're going to do a fresh install anyways, unless you think lenovo is going to use something like vpro to spy on you without the OS.
    - jkestner 10y ago
      You're funding spyware, even if it's not on your own computer.
      - gruez 10y ago
        if you're referring to the superfish scandal, that piece of software wasn't developed by lenovo, it was developed by a third party, who paid lenovo to install it on their windows images. so i don't see how buying lenovo is "funding spyware".
        tedunangst 10y ago
        More like Lenovo is taxing spyware, if you're going to install something other than Windows. Superfish only loses money on that transaction.
        jkestner 10y ago
colemickens 10y ago
Meanwhile I just put Arch back on my Chromebook Pixel and I couldn't be happier. Far better screen, far better font rendering, and no absurdities regarding keyboard shortcuts and keys whenever plugging in an external keyboard. I can use my mouse with normal scroll while having my trackpad inverted. I have a real window manager again with "Always On Top". And I have real per-app volume mixing again. Oh, and an escape key! I literally had money set aside to buy a new MBP, but I don't see myself being an Apple customer again anytime soon. edit: I just don't get this place sometimes. Did I piss off some Apple fans?
- busterarm 10y ago
  I wish I'd gotten a 2015 and put OpenBSD on it. Oh well :(
  - colemickens 10y ago
    Are they out of stock, or just can't bring yourself to buy 18mo old hardware? I feel like mid-summer next year we're going to start seeing signs of a new Pixel for the Andromeda merging of Android/ChromeOS.
    - busterarm 10y ago
      Prices are climbing because they're harder to get now but yes on point 2.
- hellofunk 10y ago
  Is it easy to install and use Linux on all Chromebook Pixel machines? I'm looking into it, what about Ubuntu? I was googling this last night and it's surprisingly hard to track down information about this, no wonder the OP had to just go and test it for himself.
preek 10y ago
I run my Linux on a VM where I spend most of my time, so I have no first hand experience, but a friend of mine just bought a new MBP, installed Arch on it and blogged about it: http://www.nico.schottelius.org/blog/linux-on-macbook-pro-2016/ http://www.nico.schottelius.org/blog/linux-on-macbook-pro-20...
AceJohnny2 10y ago
Macbooks were never good choices to run Linux on, and it's naive to think it would've gotten any easier. Apple's version of EFI is slightly different than the standard. The laptops are filled with custom hardware that you won't find anywhere else. It took Dell months of effort by a dedicated team [1] to get all the features of a subset of Dell XPS13 laptops working under Linux. I'm actually considering buying one as a Linux machine, and I already own a Macbook. To think that an Apple laptop would in any way make a good or even workable Linux machine is laughably naive. [1] https://sputnik.github.io/ https://sputnik.github.io/
- nextos 10y ago
  That depends. MacBook Air 2012 11 inch is one of the best machines I have ever seen for Linux. In fact Linus himself used one for some time, which he praised. It's a very standard Ivy Bridge machine, also extremely silent. Everything just works with a stock kernel. Only minor caveat is that the wireless card has bad range. But also in Mac OS, so not sure this is a driver fault. Easy to fix, I use an external Atheros from Alfa which has incredible range and is great for pen-testing. Apart from that, the only annoyance is that the battery does not emit ACPI discharge events. But very few laptops do this, apart from some ThinkPads. (I would love to know which do! These are really useful to set up udev sleep rules instead of polling the battery on a tiling window manager & no-desktop-environment setup, but it is a feature rarely documented.)
- maggit 10y ago
  I've been running Linux on my MacBook Pro for quite a while (years?), and while there are a couple of hicups due to Apple weirdness, they are minor. I would definitely call my MacBook Pro a good (and workable) Linux machine.
  - cookiecaper 10y ago
    Yes, I ran Linux on a MBP for several years, starting about 10 years ago. It works fine after a little bit of configuration (new hardware may take a little while to get driver support, per usual; that's not unique to Apple hardware). I've also used Windows on a MBP for several months. It's not perfect either, there are minor quirks with that too. MBPs really only work perfectly under OS X for obvious reasons, but it's not usually not implausible to use other OSes on a MacBook if you want to do that.
cpncrunch 10y ago
To be honest I'm not sure why you'd really want to do that. For a developer OS X gives you everything that linux offers that you would need, with the advantage of a better GUI. I only ever use linux on servers these days. OS X is a much more usable client-side OS for a variety of reasons.
- plzbo 10y ago
  What are those reasons apart from having a "better" ui? (Which is highly subjective and if you use a tiling wm Linux is probably the better choice). What turns me off OS X is the lack of a good package manager with up to date packages. Has this changed?
  - cpncrunch 10y ago
    >What are those reasons apart from having a "better" ui? (Which is highly subjective and if you use a tiling wm Linux is probably the better choice). - More commercial software available (photoshop, etc). - OS X is required if you need to run xcode - Easier to upgrade to the next version of the OS, without having to do a full reinstall - Better binary compatibility. (Pretty minor issue). >What turns me off OS X is the lack of a good package manager with up to date packages. Has this changed? http://brew.sh/ http://brew.sh/
    - striking 10y ago
      > full reinstall You need to fully reinstall your Linux install every upgrade? That might be a symptom of Ubuntu usage, but many other distros handle upgrades gracefully. Arch is an example of this.
      - cpncrunch 10y ago
        Perhaps it depends on the distro. You certainly have to reinstall to upgrade to a new version of CentOS (which is what I use on all my servers).
- teto-plz 10y ago
ilaksh 10y ago
I think they said they spent like $2800. For that amount of money you could get 2 Chromebooks ($179 each), build two decent gaming PCs ($900 each), and rent 5 Digital Ocean VPSs ($5 per month) for two years.
- 21 10y ago
  And for the price of a Ferarri you can get 5 Toyotas, 2 scooters and monthly passes for the subway for a year. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
  - ilaksh 10y ago
    MacBooks aren't Ferraris.
    - spronkey 10y ago
      Indeed. More like BMWs.
  - nightski 10y ago
    Except Ferarris are fast. A MBP has what, a Radeon Pro 455? That is laughable compared to a GTX 1060.
    - loc_00000000 10y ago
      Speed isn't the only thing you're paying for in a Ferrari
      - nightski 10y ago
        But lets be real, at least it is a thing lol
  - lucb1e 10y ago
    That you can get a whole lot of bang for that amount of bucks if you only didn't buy that "disappointment" (in reddit OP's words).
5ilv3r 10y ago
Idiots don't seem to realize that there are two ways hardware is supported by linux. Either the vendor writes the driver (like in windows land) and releases or merges it, or some other guy figures out how to twiddle the hardware and make it work, and merges it. You must wait for one of those to happen if you cannot do it yourself. This is not news.
noobermin 10y ago
I have the new MacBook from 2015, and I was hoping now that that they've released a new MacBook Pro, we will finally see work on Linux support on this damn machine. For one, the keyboard does not work on that machine too[0], probably for the same reason. [0] https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108331 https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108331
jijojv 10y ago
.....
- teto-plz 10y ago
  The problem is that many people expect the hardware to be supported. I don't know why, but there is empirical proof they do.
mjg59 10y ago
The three primary issues here are: 1) The input devices are on SPI, not USB. Apple's ACPI tables don't provide the GPIO mappings for these things via the standard mechanisms, so the chipset driver won't bind. You then still need another driver for the SPI controller, and there's an out of tree one at https://github.com/cb22/macbook12-spi-driver/ https://github.com/cb22/macbook12-spi-driver/ . Longer term, the kernel needs to be able to parse Apple's ACPI tables and that driver needs merging. 2) Apple's NVME hardware uses the wrong PCI device class, possibly because it's not entirely NVME compatible (trying to read 64 bits of mmio register space in one go will fail, for instance). Linux has a specific entry for the older Apple NVME devices, and that may need to be broadened. 3) Having source ID checking enabled when doing IRQ remapping results in the system hanging on boot. It's unclear what the underlying problem is. Windows works fine because Apple provide drivers for (1) and (2). (3) is unclear - Windows may be setting up interrupt remapping differently, or it may never enable source ID verification. These issues are far from unusual when dealing with Apple hardware ((1) was true for the new Macbook, (2) has been true since Apple introduced NVME, (3) is the kind of weirdness that we've seen on Apple hardware ever since they went Intel), and this particular set of breakage is unsurprising. I spend some time while I was at Red Hat trying to keep Apple hardware working (https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/12037.html https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/12037.html is an example of what we had to do), but I don't know that anybody's really working terribly hard on it these days.
- ndesaulniers 10y ago
  Thanks for the link to the WIP driver. Since you have a lot of experience in this area, I'm curious: 1. What's the __1e6 alignment? [0] I've never heard of that. 2. How is the driver author going about writing that driver? Some of the comments seem to allude to analyzing what the Windows driver is doing. Do you think they're disassembling the Windows driver and trying to re-implement a Linux compatible driver in C? I don't see how anyone could implement a driver like this off the bat without some data sheet or existing code to look at. Edit: thanks to people pointing out it's __le16, not __1e6. I need to change my font; even now I can barely tell the 1 and l apart. [0] https://github.com/cb22/macbook12-spi-driver/blob/master/applespi.c#L63 https://github.com/cb22/macbook12-spi-driver/blob/master/app...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
msane 10y ago
Sorry but who runs linux on a Mac?
chmaynard 10y ago
I assume the author means you won't be able to boot the machine using Linux until modifications are made to the OS. Linux probably runs just fine inside a Docker container.
- moondev 10y ago
  That container is not running on macos. Its inside an alpine vm.
  - chmaynard 10y ago
    Yes, thanks for the correction. My point was that virtualization makes it likely that Alpine Linux runs fine on the new MacBook Pro without modification.
bluedino 10y ago
Works just fine in a VM - I find it works better to just do that and you keep all the OS X benefits (touchpad, battery life...)
- moondev 10y ago
  What do you use? I like fusion but can't get option to map to alt for alt tab to save my life
  - loc_00000000 10y ago
    You could use any VM and make it fullscreen so you can swap environments using the three finger swipe set up in the trackpad gestures.
    - karl42 10y ago
      I didn't manage to keep the dock and menubar permanently hidden (even when moving the mouse to the edge of the screen) in both Virtualbox and Veertu Desktop. Did you get that right, or do you just live with it?
moondev 10y ago
Anyone here run linux on their macbook succesfully? I tried but couldnt get hardware rendering to work with cinnamon (2015 15" pro). I'm open to any window manager that does hidpi well though. Vmware fusion actually works pretty damn well but I hate having the extra layer and hearing the fans all the time.
- striking 10y ago
  I tried it once with suckless' dwm. Obviously dwm doesn't respect HiDPI but after having set the .Xresources file, everything was absolutely great. [1] This will probably only work if you take the time to write your own .xinitrc. I'm really sorry about that, but I haven't had an opportunity to find a better solution. Perhaps someone else can further assist you. 1: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/HiDPI#X_Resources https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/HiDPI#X_Resources
  - moondev 10y ago
    Thanks for the advice, i'll give that a go.
- 75j 10y ago
  > hardware rendering to work with cinnamon I had this exact same problem with an Asus and a Lenovo while running Cinnamon. Try a different GUI and I think you'll be satisfied. Cinnamon is nice, but it still uses far more resources than most other popular Linux GUIs and doesn't run well on certain systems.
snippet22 10y ago
Here u go https://veertu.com https://veertu.com
loc_00000000 10y ago
I don't see a big problem here. A virtual machine will not have the same conflicts. Besides, running a Linux distro in a VM is very efficient in terms of CPU and in turn battery consumption (I get <1% CPU with VMware). having the two OS's (OSX and Linux) in parallel should be the preferred operation.
rbanffy 10y ago
Honestly curious here: I understand running Linux on a laptop that came with Windows installed, but a Mac comes preinstalled with a fairly reasonable Unix environment. Why bother? Even on Linux I usually develop inside a VM with a stable OS (CentOS, Ubuntu LTS) that's older than the host environment (current Ubuntu or Fedora).
nicky0 10y ago
First everyone complained there MBP was shit and that they weren't going to get one. Now apparently it's so good people are wanting them to run Linux on.
WhitneyLand 10y ago
is this only a problem for installs down to the metal? or are there issues getting a linux VM running as fast as possible? i don't understand why you'd want a $4000 MacBook to run only linux. there are so many other options for native installs.

428 points by danjoc 10y ago

I've read this thread and see there are people who highly appreciate Apple's products and others who dislike them very much. Personally, I see plenty of Apple laptops used by my colleagues, and I can't help liking them. Since I want to run linux though, my question is: is there a specific (older) version of the MacBook Pro that I should consider?

hartator 10y ago

Apple is working so hard for us to not buy from them anymore. It's incredible.

chktsk_fn 10y ago
They are trying desperately.

pinkrooftop 10y ago

A more accurate description is that Linux isn't compatible with the new Macbook Pro. It's not Apple's job to make their laptop compatible with Linux.

std_throwaway 10y ago
Neither is any of the other manufacturers and yet, there is a public outcry if a notebook runs only the latest version of Windows. The real question is if Apple missed providing drivers or if it is deliberate.
- adiabatty 10y ago
  Apple seems preternaturally constrained by engineer time; I can't see why they would devote a scarce resource like that to qualifying drivers for anything older than Windows 10 Anniversary Edition.
  - atomi 10y ago
    They have incredible amount of cash reserves. An investment in Linux drivers would go against their mission of OSX penetration. It has nothing to do with being unable to do it.
    - threeseed 10y ago
      It's not about the money. Apple prefers and has done a lot better with smaller, more focused teams.
    - SiVal 10y ago
      I agree that it's not a lack of resources, but I don't think it's about OSX penetration. They don't seem to care much about OSX penetration anymore. If they did, they would make a wider range of OSX devices and sell them at a more competitive price or license it to other hardware makers who would do so so they could get OSX into more hands. It's about control. Apple doesn't want YOU to replace OSX, they want to do it themselves with something they control, not let you gain control.
      - pjmlp 10y ago
        Just like any other computer manufacturer, it was an historical accident that PC compatibles turned out differently. However thanks to the razor thin margins and the desktops being replaced by laptops with docking stations, they are a dying breed.
    - astrodust 10y ago
      You can't just throw money at a problem and it magically gets solved. Adding additional requirements puts strain on your core team, there's no way around it. If you could 100% compartmentalize this, have people working on it independently, maybe you could minimize impact, but how can you justify that spending? They know the open-source community is capable of working to fix problems like this.
      - bluedino 10y ago
- DannyBee 10y ago
  It's really missing linux drivers, from what reading bugs tells me. The keyboard and mouse are connected by SPI, etc. These are not super-proprietary things,it's just that a bit more work than wanted in linux. Linux also "lies" and claims to be Darwin, which causes the wrong ACPI thing to happen sometimes. This is pretty common (ie linux used to claim to be windows sometimes, too), but in this case, it gets exactly the wrong answer. (edit: Looks like mjg59 came along and gave a more detailed answer, you should lookat that)
- jws 10y ago
  there is a public outcry if a notebook runs only the latest version of Windows The is no public outcry for the Acer Cloudbook I bought which tolerates Linux about as well as these new MacBooks.† Acer provides no drivers or other help. I don't see any reason to expect Apple to go beyond Acer to support unintended operating systems.‡ ␄ † It has trackpad driver problems, EFI mysteries, and a broken APIC (from Linux's viewpoint). With a couple hours hacking about you can get Debian installed, but each new kernel release is a crap shoot that can end in an unbootable machine for some as yet undiagnosed malady. Recent kernels result in it instantly deciding it has overheated and must power down immediately. ‡ I also don't see Acer submitting patches to my operating system, though that would be shocking.
mderazon 10y ago
Which sounds more accurate? 1. Windows is not compatible with the new MacBook pro 2. The new MacBook pro is not compatible with Windows ?
- Tinyyy 10y ago
  1. Don't Linux users always complain about software not being compatible with Linux? Or is Linux not compatible with photoshop?
teto-plz 10y ago
Two things being compatible with each other is a symmetric relation, so the order doesn't matter.
- gnicholas 10y ago
  When previous devices in a series were compatible, things are a little different. When I upgraded my iPhone to iOS 8 (in 2014), it stopped connecting via bluetooth with my car (2011 Subaru, FWIW). Apple told me it was a Subaru problem. I reiterated that the problem was caused by my upgrading iOS, and that nothing changed in my car. They said to get a firmware upgrade for my car. So incompatibility can be symmetric, but for people with an expectation based on prior compatibility, the party that whose update triggers the issue will be seen (fairly or not) as the cause.
- evincarofautumn 10y ago
  True, but we usually phrase it in terms of the new thing’s compatibility with the old. In this case, Apple chose not to make their laptop compatible with the existing Linux. Nor, I think, should they necessarily have been expected to—it’s proprietary hardware, meant to run their proprietary OS.
- coldtea 10y ago
  When describing abstract entities maybe, in real life, order always matters. E.g. if you sell an office suite and it doesn't support DOC and XLS files, it's your fault and users will call you for it. It's not Microsoft's job to go make sure Word and Excel work with your office suite.
- lanna 10y ago
  no, it's not
- pinkrooftop 10y ago
  logically yes, but the subtext of this usage in English adds hidden variables
marcosdumay 10y ago
What difference does it make for a buyer?
walshemj 10y ago
"OSX ain't done until Linux wont run" to adapt an old saying :-)
pjmlp 10y ago
Agreed, if people want a laptop compatible with GNU/Linux they should give their money to those that care to provide such laptops.
ominous 10y ago
It is not [insert place]'s job to respect [insert other place] ideals of liberty. It is not comedians' job to respect other's religious beliefs. It is not democracy's job to please everyone. What was your point again?
- rawTruthHurts 10y ago
  If that wasn't the very definition of fanboyism...
- pinkrooftop 10y ago
  apples and oranges

tedunangst 10y ago

This is obviously Microsoft's fault, right?

Symbiote 10y ago

Would anyone expect it to be compatible, this soon after release?

awesomerobot 10y ago
All previous models were compatible out of the box.
- colemickens 10y ago
  That's not remotely true.
- plorkyeran 10y ago
  There's a 17 month old bounty to add support for the 2015 MacBook: https://www.bountysource.com/issues/35422234-macbook8-1-12-inch-early-2015-keyboard-and-trackpad-don-t-work https://www.bountysource.com/issues/35422234-macbook8-1-12-i.... The 2012 Retina MBP also didn't work correctly at first but that was fixed quickly. The only models that were compatible out of the box were the ones which didn't change much.
  - awesomerobot 10y ago
    my bad
- moondev 10y ago
  No way. Hacks abound
- igravious 10y ago
  Demonstrably false.

nine_k 10y ago

There are other nice machines to run Linux on. AFAICT people buy Apple laptops to run macOS; for that you have pretty little choice.

bdcravens 10y ago
At one point Linus's machine of choice was a Macbook Air.
- nine_k 10y ago
  Linus probably had easier time handling incompatibilities with the hardware. Most of us are not such proficient Linux hackers.
  - bdcravens 10y ago
    It seems to be pretty well supported: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBookAir https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBookAir https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/MacBook https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/MacBook
maxxxxx 10y ago
For a while a Macbook was the best Windows laptop. Not sure if that's still true.
- chadgeidel 10y ago
  IMHO it's still up there. I don't know about the new ones, but I had a 2015 at my previous place of employment and Windows 10 on BootCamp is a very nice experience. I still haven't seen a laptop from "PC manufacturers" that comes close. I haven't physically used a SurfaceBook though.
  - legodt 10y ago
    The surface is nice, but it's a very different experience from the older, more solid macbook hardware. Most of the complaints about the new directions for macbook hardware (too light, not enough material, weird inconsistencies, and sacrificed keyboard mechanics) also appear on the Surface

chktsk_fn 10y ago

You can't have your (cake) and eat it too.

notadoc 10y ago

$2800 on a laptop with only 16GB RAM that you're going to run linux on anyway? If you're going to run Ubuntu, why not get a Lenovo for much less and with notably better legitimately "Pro" specs?

elchief 10y ago
Apple, maybe, actually fights for your privacy, while Lenovo definitely exploits it for money. Is there a secure enclave chip in Lenovo? Do you really trust their firmware?
- gruez 10y ago
  I don't see how that's a relevant point if you're going to do a fresh install anyways, unless you think lenovo is going to use something like vpro to spy on you without the OS.
  - jkestner 10y ago
    You're funding spyware, even if it's not on your own computer.
    - gruez 10y ago
      if you're referring to the superfish scandal, that piece of software wasn't developed by lenovo, it was developed by a third party, who paid lenovo to install it on their windows images. so i don't see how buying lenovo is "funding spyware".
      - tedunangst 10y ago
        More like Lenovo is taxing spyware, if you're going to install something other than Windows. Superfish only loses money on that transaction.
        jkestner 10y ago

colemickens 10y ago

Meanwhile I just put Arch back on my Chromebook Pixel and I couldn't be happier. Far better screen, far better font rendering, and no absurdities regarding keyboard shortcuts and keys whenever plugging in an external keyboard. I can use my mouse with normal scroll while having my trackpad inverted. I have a real window manager again with "Always On Top". And I have real per-app volume mixing again. Oh, and an escape key! I literally had money set aside to buy a new MBP, but I don't see myself being an Apple customer again anytime soon. edit: I just don't get this place sometimes. Did I piss off some Apple fans?

busterarm 10y ago
I wish I'd gotten a 2015 and put OpenBSD on it. Oh well :(
- colemickens 10y ago
  Are they out of stock, or just can't bring yourself to buy 18mo old hardware? I feel like mid-summer next year we're going to start seeing signs of a new Pixel for the Andromeda merging of Android/ChromeOS.
  - busterarm 10y ago
    Prices are climbing because they're harder to get now but yes on point 2.
hellofunk 10y ago
Is it easy to install and use Linux on all Chromebook Pixel machines? I'm looking into it, what about Ubuntu? I was googling this last night and it's surprisingly hard to track down information about this, no wonder the OP had to just go and test it for himself.

preek 10y ago

I run my Linux on a VM where I spend most of my time, so I have no first hand experience, but a friend of mine just bought a new MBP, installed Arch on it and blogged about it: http://www.nico.schottelius.org/blog/linux-on-macbook-pro-2016/ http://www.nico.schottelius.org/blog/linux-on-macbook-pro-20...

AceJohnny2 10y ago

Macbooks were never good choices to run Linux on, and it's naive to think it would've gotten any easier. Apple's version of EFI is slightly different than the standard. The laptops are filled with custom hardware that you won't find anywhere else. It took Dell months of effort by a dedicated team [1] to get all the features of a subset of Dell XPS13 laptops working under Linux. I'm actually considering buying one as a Linux machine, and I already own a Macbook. To think that an Apple laptop would in any way make a good or even workable Linux machine is laughably naive. [1] https://sputnik.github.io/ https://sputnik.github.io/

nextos 10y ago
That depends. MacBook Air 2012 11 inch is one of the best machines I have ever seen for Linux. In fact Linus himself used one for some time, which he praised. It's a very standard Ivy Bridge machine, also extremely silent. Everything just works with a stock kernel. Only minor caveat is that the wireless card has bad range. But also in Mac OS, so not sure this is a driver fault. Easy to fix, I use an external Atheros from Alfa which has incredible range and is great for pen-testing. Apart from that, the only annoyance is that the battery does not emit ACPI discharge events. But very few laptops do this, apart from some ThinkPads. (I would love to know which do! These are really useful to set up udev sleep rules instead of polling the battery on a tiling window manager & no-desktop-environment setup, but it is a feature rarely documented.)
maggit 10y ago
I've been running Linux on my MacBook Pro for quite a while (years?), and while there are a couple of hicups due to Apple weirdness, they are minor. I would definitely call my MacBook Pro a good (and workable) Linux machine.
- cookiecaper 10y ago
  Yes, I ran Linux on a MBP for several years, starting about 10 years ago. It works fine after a little bit of configuration (new hardware may take a little while to get driver support, per usual; that's not unique to Apple hardware). I've also used Windows on a MBP for several months. It's not perfect either, there are minor quirks with that too. MBPs really only work perfectly under OS X for obvious reasons, but it's not usually not implausible to use other OSes on a MacBook if you want to do that.

cpncrunch 10y ago

To be honest I'm not sure why you'd really want to do that. For a developer OS X gives you everything that linux offers that you would need, with the advantage of a better GUI. I only ever use linux on servers these days. OS X is a much more usable client-side OS for a variety of reasons.

plzbo 10y ago
What are those reasons apart from having a "better" ui? (Which is highly subjective and if you use a tiling wm Linux is probably the better choice). What turns me off OS X is the lack of a good package manager with up to date packages. Has this changed?
- cpncrunch 10y ago
  >What are those reasons apart from having a "better" ui? (Which is highly subjective and if you use a tiling wm Linux is probably the better choice). - More commercial software available (photoshop, etc). - OS X is required if you need to run xcode - Easier to upgrade to the next version of the OS, without having to do a full reinstall - Better binary compatibility. (Pretty minor issue). >What turns me off OS X is the lack of a good package manager with up to date packages. Has this changed? http://brew.sh/ http://brew.sh/
  - striking 10y ago
    > full reinstall You need to fully reinstall your Linux install every upgrade? That might be a symptom of Ubuntu usage, but many other distros handle upgrades gracefully. Arch is an example of this.
    - cpncrunch 10y ago
      Perhaps it depends on the distro. You certainly have to reinstall to upgrade to a new version of CentOS (which is what I use on all my servers).
teto-plz 10y ago

ilaksh 10y ago

I think they said they spent like $2800. For that amount of money you could get 2 Chromebooks ($179 each), build two decent gaming PCs ($900 each), and rent 5 Digital Ocean VPSs ($5 per month) for two years.

21 10y ago
And for the price of a Ferarri you can get 5 Toyotas, 2 scooters and monthly passes for the subway for a year. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
- ilaksh 10y ago
  MacBooks aren't Ferraris.
  - spronkey 10y ago
    Indeed. More like BMWs.
- nightski 10y ago
  Except Ferarris are fast. A MBP has what, a Radeon Pro 455? That is laughable compared to a GTX 1060.
  - loc_00000000 10y ago
    Speed isn't the only thing you're paying for in a Ferrari
    - nightski 10y ago
      But lets be real, at least it is a thing lol
- lucb1e 10y ago
  That you can get a whole lot of bang for that amount of bucks if you only didn't buy that "disappointment" (in reddit OP's words).

5ilv3r 10y ago

Idiots don't seem to realize that there are two ways hardware is supported by linux. Either the vendor writes the driver (like in windows land) and releases or merges it, or some other guy figures out how to twiddle the hardware and make it work, and merges it. You must wait for one of those to happen if you cannot do it yourself. This is not news.

noobermin 10y ago

I have the new MacBook from 2015, and I was hoping now that that they've released a new MacBook Pro, we will finally see work on Linux support on this damn machine. For one, the keyboard does not work on that machine too[0], probably for the same reason. [0] https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108331 https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108331

jijojv 10y ago

.....

teto-plz 10y ago
The problem is that many people expect the hardware to be supported. I don't know why, but there is empirical proof they do.

mjg59 10y ago

The three primary issues here are: 1) The input devices are on SPI, not USB. Apple's ACPI tables don't provide the GPIO mappings for these things via the standard mechanisms, so the chipset driver won't bind. You then still need another driver for the SPI controller, and there's an out of tree one at https://github.com/cb22/macbook12-spi-driver/ https://github.com/cb22/macbook12-spi-driver/ . Longer term, the kernel needs to be able to parse Apple's ACPI tables and that driver needs merging. 2) Apple's NVME hardware uses the wrong PCI device class, possibly because it's not entirely NVME compatible (trying to read 64 bits of mmio register space in one go will fail, for instance). Linux has a specific entry for the older Apple NVME devices, and that may need to be broadened. 3) Having source ID checking enabled when doing IRQ remapping results in the system hanging on boot. It's unclear what the underlying problem is. Windows works fine because Apple provide drivers for (1) and (2). (3) is unclear - Windows may be setting up interrupt remapping differently, or it may never enable source ID verification. These issues are far from unusual when dealing with Apple hardware ((1) was true for the new Macbook, (2) has been true since Apple introduced NVME, (3) is the kind of weirdness that we've seen on Apple hardware ever since they went Intel), and this particular set of breakage is unsurprising. I spend some time while I was at Red Hat trying to keep Apple hardware working (https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/12037.html https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/12037.html is an example of what we had to do), but I don't know that anybody's really working terribly hard on it these days.

ndesaulniers 10y ago
Thanks for the link to the WIP driver. Since you have a lot of experience in this area, I'm curious: 1. What's the __1e6 alignment? [0] I've never heard of that. 2. How is the driver author going about writing that driver? Some of the comments seem to allude to analyzing what the Windows driver is doing. Do you think they're disassembling the Windows driver and trying to re-implement a Linux compatible driver in C? I don't see how anyone could implement a driver like this off the bat without some data sheet or existing code to look at. Edit: thanks to people pointing out it's __le16, not __1e6. I need to change my font; even now I can barely tell the 1 and l apart. [0] https://github.com/cb22/macbook12-spi-driver/blob/master/applespi.c#L63 https://github.com/cb22/macbook12-spi-driver/blob/master/app...

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

msane 10y ago

Sorry but who runs linux on a Mac?

chmaynard 10y ago

I assume the author means you won't be able to boot the machine using Linux until modifications are made to the OS. Linux probably runs just fine inside a Docker container.

moondev 10y ago
That container is not running on macos. Its inside an alpine vm.
- chmaynard 10y ago
  Yes, thanks for the correction. My point was that virtualization makes it likely that Alpine Linux runs fine on the new MacBook Pro without modification.

bluedino 10y ago

Works just fine in a VM - I find it works better to just do that and you keep all the OS X benefits (touchpad, battery life...)

moondev 10y ago
What do you use? I like fusion but can't get option to map to alt for alt tab to save my life
- loc_00000000 10y ago
  You could use any VM and make it fullscreen so you can swap environments using the three finger swipe set up in the trackpad gestures.
  - karl42 10y ago
    I didn't manage to keep the dock and menubar permanently hidden (even when moving the mouse to the edge of the screen) in both Virtualbox and Veertu Desktop. Did you get that right, or do you just live with it?

moondev 10y ago

Anyone here run linux on their macbook succesfully? I tried but couldnt get hardware rendering to work with cinnamon (2015 15" pro). I'm open to any window manager that does hidpi well though. Vmware fusion actually works pretty damn well but I hate having the extra layer and hearing the fans all the time.

striking 10y ago
I tried it once with suckless' dwm. Obviously dwm doesn't respect HiDPI but after having set the .Xresources file, everything was absolutely great. [1] This will probably only work if you take the time to write your own .xinitrc. I'm really sorry about that, but I haven't had an opportunity to find a better solution. Perhaps someone else can further assist you. 1: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/HiDPI#X_Resources https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/HiDPI#X_Resources
- moondev 10y ago
  Thanks for the advice, i'll give that a go.
75j 10y ago
> hardware rendering to work with cinnamon I had this exact same problem with an Asus and a Lenovo while running Cinnamon. Try a different GUI and I think you'll be satisfied. Cinnamon is nice, but it still uses far more resources than most other popular Linux GUIs and doesn't run well on certain systems.

snippet22 10y ago

Here u go https://veertu.com https://veertu.com

loc_00000000 10y ago

I don't see a big problem here. A virtual machine will not have the same conflicts. Besides, running a Linux distro in a VM is very efficient in terms of CPU and in turn battery consumption (I get <1% CPU with VMware). having the two OS's (OSX and Linux) in parallel should be the preferred operation.

rbanffy 10y ago

Honestly curious here: I understand running Linux on a laptop that came with Windows installed, but a Mac comes preinstalled with a fairly reasonable Unix environment. Why bother? Even on Linux I usually develop inside a VM with a stable OS (CentOS, Ubuntu LTS) that's older than the host environment (current Ubuntu or Fedora).

nicky0 10y ago

First everyone complained there MBP was shit and that they weren't going to get one. Now apparently it's so good people are wanting them to run Linux on.

WhitneyLand 10y ago

is this only a problem for installs down to the metal? or are there issues getting a linux VM running as fast as possible? i don't understand why you'd want a $4000 MacBook to run only linux. there are so many other options for native installs.