19 ms·

Linux can’t be installed on a recent Lenovo laptop

• tzs 10y ago
  It sounds like Lenovo's BIOS is using a RAID mode with the internal SSD that Linux does not understand. Lenovo apparently provides a driver for this RAID mode for Windows 10. If you want to install something else (Linux, Windows 8) you are out of luck until someone produces a driver for that operating system.
  • makaronin 10y ago
    It is much worse because Lenovo programmed the BIOS to lock the system so if you try to toggle it to AHCI mode with an EFI variable from EFIshell, it immediately sets itself back to RAID mode.
    • _ao789 10y ago
      EFI = AHCI? EFI:EFI
  • beagle3 10y ago
    This comment from the reddit discussion is very relevant: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_microsoft_signature_pc_program_now/d7vnnqz https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_micro... Quoth BaronH: > Nope. You can turn Secure Boot off on the Lenovo Yoga models that this affects. > They have the SSD in some strange "RAID" mode where Linux can't see or be installed to it, and neither can Windows unless you add some drivers to your Windows installer media. They removed AHCI mode from the BIOS. Then they wrote additional code so if you try to toggle it to AHCI mode with an EFI variable from EFIshell, it immediately sets itself back to RAID. > For the last 11 months, they were silent on why this machine was configured this way. The only reason we know why now is because Lenovo answered my Best Buy review by stating it is locked due to the agreement they signed with Microsoft for the Signature Edition PC program, so it's very likely that all Ultrabooks in the Microsoft Store, and some outside the MS Store (such as at Best Buy) will eventually be configured so that Linux can't be installed, even if there are some now where you can install Linux. > So consider "Signature Edition" a warning label that means "You aren't allowed to run Linux, per Microsoft.".
  • gmazza 10y ago
    If this [1] Lenovo employee's answer is a real deal, and this was in fact sanctioned by MS, I wonder if their actual goal was to prevent people from installing Windows 8/7/whatever. MS did go on record by saying they are willing to block people from installing old versions on new hardware. [2] [1] http://imgur.com/a/niewu http://imgur.com/a/niewu [2] http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/16/10780876/microsoft-windows-support-policy-new-processors-skylake http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/16/10780876/microsoft-windows...
    • vertex-four 10y ago
      Given the quality of answers to questions that I'm used to by computer manufacturer "product experts" online... it's really unlikely that that's actually the case.
  • userbinator 10y ago
    RAID mode? WTF? Why would they be using RAID mode on a machine with a single SSD, and according to the other posts here, deliberately make it nearly impossible to change? Maybe because good-old-IDE or even AHCI was too simple and open.
• voltagex_ 10y ago
  Site is down. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fossboss.com/2016/09/21/windows-10-signature-edition-blocks-installing-linux/&num=1&safe=active&strip=1&vwsrc=0 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fossbos... The article looks dangerously uninformed, from a brief skim. It's based on https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_microsoft_signature_pc_program_now/?st=itckdfrp&sh=b67cac2d https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_micro... I can't find any info on what SSD the Lenovo Yoga uses but if it's anything like the NVMe drive in my Dell XPS, it's just the way the card is set up. Depending on which kernel your installer is using it won't see the NVMe drive as it simply has no drivers for it.
  • dTal 10y ago
    I dunno, this looks like a smoking gun: http://i1.wp.com/fossboss.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/B7gMpFL.png http://i1.wp.com/fossboss.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/B7g...
    • voltagex_ 10y ago
      I don't think being able to change the drive to AHCI mode would fix the problem. The BIOS (actually UEFI) "locking" and storage driver are two separate issues. I mean, hell, if someone wants to send me one of these laptops I'll test it and do a full writeup. Of course Reddit has gone off without anyone actually confirming what the issue is. Microsoft would be smart to come out with a statement on this if it picks up any steam.
      • dTal 10y ago
        I'll spell it out: a Lenovo representative said "This system has a Signature Edition of Windows 10 Home installed. It is locked per our agreement with Microsoft." This is what people are reacting to. Now, of course the rep might be mistaken. We need official clarification from someone higher up. But we won't get that until we go off on one and this goes viral.
        • 10y ago
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• dTal 10y ago
  This was so predictable. And of course, the FSF called it: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot
  • voltagex_ 10y ago
    Has anyone actually confirmed this is anything but missing drivers in 3.2.x kernel versions?
    • gmazza 10y ago
      Have a look lenovo forums [1] (also linked prominently from original article), where OP has following to say: I am attempting to install ubuntu 16.04 on my yoga 900. The bios can see the 512 gb samsung hard drive and so can Windows. The ubuntu installer can not see it at all. ...and first person to reply adds: I have the same issue with the 900S model. I have tried the newest kernel 4.6 but linux doesn't even list the pci express device in lspci. So no, positively not the 3.2.x kernel to blame here. [1] https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/td-p/3339206 https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK...
      • voltagex_ 10y ago
        Right. Thanks for that. I am reacting to the claims that it's "locked by Microsoft". This looks to be missing Linux support for an Intel device. Sad, but not unusual.
        • deleted 10y ago
          [deleted]
      • dagaci 10y ago
        Someone should inform the foss-boss! when his website come back up.
    • Freak_NL 10y ago
• INTPenis 10y ago
  On some recent Lenovo laptops. I have a recent X260 running Fedora 24 and I'm very happy with it, and with Fedoras support. I use both smartcard and 4G data module with it. Only thing I don't use is the fingerprint reader. Only sad bit is that I had to disable SecureBoot to run VirtualBox. I would have happily signed the VirtualBox kernel modules if it wasn't for Lenovo missing a small detail in the implementation of the UEFI spec that enables users to write their own MOK.
  • beagle3 10y ago
    Wait a second. Are you running Fedora24 on metal or on Virtualbox? If on metal, then how do the (unsigned) virtual box kernel modules matter? And if on virtualbox - you don't actually know if it would run on metal. VirtualBox hides quite a lot from you. (I expect that it will run on metal - I just don't think you have evidence one way or another if you are running it on vbox)
    • voltagex_ 10y ago
      VirtualBox itself requires kernel modules to run.
      • beagle3 10y ago
        But Linux doesn't care and lets them run. Unless you mean those on the Windows side. In which case - why does virtualbox honor bios settings of the host machine?
        • mmarx 10y ago
          > But Linux doesn't care and lets them run. No, it doesn't, at least on Fedora[0]: “When Secure Boot is enabled, the EFI operating system boot loaders, the Fedora kernel, and all kernel modules must be signed with a private key and authenticated with the corresponding public key.” [0] https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/24/html/System_Administrators_Guide/sect-signing-kernel-modules-for-secure-boot.html https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/24/html/System_A...
• amluto 10y ago
  Supposedly Intel's NVMe variant of Rapid Storage Technology is currently unsupported on Linux. I find this puzzling because conventional RST doesn't really do anything that matters to the OS other than changing the AHCI controller's id, so Linux "support" is trivial. But conventional RST relies on the PCIe target being on-board and, with NVMe, the target is the SSD itself, so I don't fully understand what the newer NVMe does. My laptop won't even POST with RST on, so I can't meaningfully experiment.
• HugoDaniel 10y ago
  Microsoft 2016: lots of open-source, still closed-minded.
• Yaggo 10y ago
  Just out of curiosity, what's the rationale for MS & Lenovo to do this, why to risk PR? The number of people wanting to install Linux is marginal and they are already "on the wrong side".
  • afarrell 10y ago
    And they can just switch to Dell and buy an external Lenovo keyboard.
  • kashyapc 10y ago
    What is this gibberish about being "on the wrong side"? Please don't make vacuous statements.
    • witty_username 10y ago
      A vacuous statement is a statement about 0 things. So, ironically, you're saying that Linux has no users.
    • vidarh 10y ago
      It is not gibberish. They put it in quotes to imply that it is not literally true that they are on the wrong side, but that for the purposes of Microsofts efforts they are on the wrong side in the sense that they are not Microsoft customers and are not likely to be swayed by this or anything else so they are not worth targeting for Microsoft. So the only real outcome from this would at first glance appear to be to antagonise people who won't consider their product either way and cause bad PR. The question is if there's any other/better rationale.
      • kashyapc 10y ago
        Ah, thanks for clarifying. Guess it was my impulse reaction as a long-time Lenovo + Linux user / dev. Should've asked before jumping the gun too soon. Sorry, Yaggo.
  • Normal_gaussian 10y ago
    It's certainly not the year of the Linux desktop, but it's not far off. I've successfully switched both parents to Linux and non tech at our company run completely on Linux. It's a real threat, especially with MS failing to innovate.
• nitinreddy88 10y ago
  Is it more of hardware/pc manufacture issue rather than portraying it as "Windows" issue?
  • voltagex_ 10y ago
    Yes. The hint is in the screenshot that mentions not being able to use the drive in the Windows 10 installer (WinPE).
  • Slothrop99 10y ago
    Right. Obviously there is some justification, but if you hung out at slashdot way too long, you'd know there is a bunch of paranoid schizophrenic people manufacturing bizarre Microsoft conspiracy theories every single day. The post even describes the issue pretty explicitly as "Linux isn't loading the correct disk driver", yet it still spun as some intentional FU "block". I guess with a domain like "fossboss.com" you should expect the lowest form of the Slashdot mentality. I very much hope HN doesn't start to deal with this sort of pure flame bait.
• colemickens 10y ago
  Which is more likely? That Lenovo shipped a crappy BIOS, like plenty of OEMs have done before? Or that Microsoft is engaging in a covert conspiracy to block Linux users via forcing Lenovo to put the HD into Intel RST mode rather than ACHI? It just doesn't make a bit of sense. If Microsoft wanted to block Linux, they would just require that SecureBoot not be disabled and require disablement of user key enrollment. Besides, a clean copy of the Windows installation media doesn't boot normally either unless you slip the Intel RST driver into a custom built version of the install media. This is just another conspiracy that I don't think makes any practical or logical sense.
  • jonathanstrange 10y ago
    Yes, both are very likely. At the same time.
  • pwdisswordfish 10y ago
    That's just what THEY want you to think!!!11 Seriously, though-. If Microsoft blocked Linux overtly, they probably couldn't get away with it so easily; they'd end up with a PR disaster and/or an antitrust lawsuit. Plausible deniability helps them; now you can bet some people are going to say "come on, firmware screw-ups are no news, what are you, some kind of conspiracy theorist?" I mean, they have already taken advantage of ACPI in this way once. (Tongue in cheek. It's not so totally implausible.)
  • crdoconnor 10y ago
    >It just doesn't make a bit of sense. If Microsoft wanted to block Linux, they would just require that SecureBoot not be disabled and require disablement of user key enrollment. Their modus operandi is to violate their antitrust agreement with the DOJ as non-obviously as possible with a nod and a wink and funnel campaign contributions to the relevant parties. If it becomes too blatant, however, the DOJ will be forced to punish them.
• shmerl 10y ago
  > Lenovo for example confirmed that they singed an agreement with Microsoft for this. If true, it's illegal product tying, and those who signed such "agreement" are violating antitrust law. Someone should sue them until they stop doing this. Lenovo are infamous for refusing to refund Windows tax until brought to court, but this is a new low for them.
  • pjmlp 10y ago
    And they will lose. http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/09/sony-wins-pre-installed-software-windows-battle-cjeu/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/09/sony-wins-pre-ins...
    • userbinator 10y ago
      Preinstalled software you can (probably) quite easily uninstall is slightly different though. I personally don't care what the computer comes with, as long as I can reformat and reinstall a new OS.
    • JorgeGT 10y ago
      It is a different situation, IMHO. The guy purchased a Sony laptop with a Windows license, and pretended that by refusing the EULA he was entitled to getting the cost of the Windows license refunded. Sony refused, offering instead that he returned the laptop for a full refund. The guy refused and filled the lawsuit.
    • shmerl 10y ago
      No, because: > However, the CJEU doesn't rule on the dispute itself. It's left up to the national court, in this case the French Cour de Cassation. And actual Cour de Cassation already ruled in the past in case of Lenovo, that they must refund Windows license to those who reject the EULA: https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichJuriJudi.do?oldAction=rechExpJuriJudi&idTexte=JURITEXT000023113674&fastReqId=2008533966&fastPos=1 https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichJuriJudi.do?oldAction=r... Hopefully Sony will go bust on this one and will be forced to pay what's due.
• 0x0 10y ago
  So they did lie when they said "Microsoft Loves Linux". https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/windowsserver/2015/05/06/microsoft-loves-linux/ https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/windowsserver/2015/05/06... Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
  • f_m_9 10y ago
    They love Linux ..as long as you only use it through their products..
    • joe563323 10y ago
      Fuck their products
  • Piskvorrr 10y ago
    Embrace, Extend, Extinguish. Hello again MS, for a moment I was getting worried about you straying from your proven strategy.
    • jewbacca 10y ago
      Seriously. If this does turn out to be intentional on Microsoft's part, then there goes every last shred of trust and goodwill they've spent the last 10 years rebuilding. (and, honestly, were finally succeeding at, to the point where I'm very close to willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here: how the hell could the benefits of such a thing come anywhere near to outweighing the amount of damage it would do?)
      • lemagedurage 10y ago
        10 years? I remember the lawsuit against TomTom in 2009, because they used the FAT32 filesystem through open source drivers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._TomTom_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._TomTom_Inc.
      • Piskvorrr 10y ago
• languagewars 10y ago
  First they came for the crapware license deals, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Windows User. Then they came for spammer license deals, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Windows User. Then they came to install back doors, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Windows User. Then they came for my ability to install Linux—and there was no one left to speak for me.
  • davnicwil 10y ago
    Let your wallet do the speaking. It's an open market and you have the choice of just buying from Lenovo's competitors - 'they' will then realise there's value in not doing this.
    • ferbivore 10y ago
      No they won't. Lenovo doesn't care about losing you guys as customers, they care about the companies who buy thousands of the damn things so their employees can run Excel on Windows.
      • pmontra 10y ago
        You are probably right but the PR backslash could make them think twice before doing the same thing again. So it's still worth complaining and, why not, buying from somebody else and be very vocal about it. For sure, after SuperFish and this I won't consider or recommend Lenovo anymore.
      • davnicwil 10y ago
        I don't disagree with you, but nor do I particularly care about losing Lenovo as a supplier. If Lenovo lose customers over this, it may be the case that they won't care, but in that case a competitor will surely swoop in to catch those customers by supplying PCs that run Linux. In any case, the market should continue to supply machines that run Linux, as long as there is a demand for them. So if you demand a machine that runs Linux, just vote with your wallet!
  • kelnos 10y ago
• kbart 10y ago
  I wonder if similar ruling[1] for alternative OS'es as with browsers could be reached? 1. http://ec.europa.eu/competition/consumers/web_browsers_choice_en.html http://ec.europa.eu/competition/consumers/web_browsers_choic...
• Aissen 10y ago
  This is probably the standard "firmware is sending different data to different OSes", which has existed since forever. Or maybe it's just a shitty firmware bug or even a kernel bug. However, I'm glad this is making this type of fuss. It means bad PR for Lenovo if they don't do any Linux QA (as they mostly never did). Good.
• dewiz 10y ago
  Maybe someone can help me understanding. Why is it OK to lock down smartphones, TV devices, consoles, but not OK for PCs?
  • smegel 10y ago
    They aren't "devices" yet.
  • pavelludiq 10y ago
    It's NOT OK to lock down smartphones, TV devices, consoles, cars, etc.
  • madaxe_again 10y ago
    Something like tradition. The IBM PC has been an "open" system since the late 70's. Tablets etc (palmtops!) started appearing in the 90's, and were walled gardens from the get go.
    • ricksplat 10y ago
      That was the whole thing about PCs - if my memory of Cringley's "Triumph of the Nerds" serves, the genesis of this category was IBM rushing to a market where other "closed" vendors such as Apple were already established. It wasn't that PCs were open "by design" but more that they did things quickly and gathered other vendors "off the shelf" notably Microsoft and Intel, and had a copyrighted "BIOS" holding the whole thing together. Once Compaq reverse engineered this BIOS (through some legally clean techniques) the market was blown open to the clone manufacturers and Intel and MS were happy to play along since at the end of the day they were just shipping more units .... probably couldn't do it these days due to DMCA and other modern copyright legislation in other jurisdictions.
      • ptaipale 10y ago
        And what Compaq did was possible because at that time you couldn't copyright the BIOS API. Today it might be different, to the loss of everyone.
• voltagex_ 10y ago
  Dupe, also really misinformed.
• xg15 10y ago
  The other HN thread suggests this not actually a dark conspiracy by Microsoft but simply a case of missing linux drivers for the storage devices. This sounds believable to me. But I'll put my tinfoil hat on just for fun and pretend it was an intentional move. Could this make sense as a new twist on the old strategy, making it "Embrace, Extinguish, Extend"? With the WSL, they made it theoretically possible to run Linux software on Windows. With that in place, locking existing users out of Linux might cause a lot less negative backlash as the users can still continue to use their old programs - except under the supervision of Windows. If this catches on, it could actually allow Microsoft to grab some if the more consumer-oriented parts of the Linux ecosystem.
  • topbanana 10y ago
    > some if the more consumer-oriented parts of the Linux ecosystem I'm scratching my head here. Help me out. I've seen extremely limited consumer take-up of desktop Linux.
    • Sylos 10y ago
      Well, it is somewhere around 1.5% to 2% and seems to currently be growing. That's not a whole lot, but still worth targeting.
  • makaronin 10y ago
    If you read the original reddit thread, you would understand that this is not just a drivers issue. Lenovo intentionally programmed their BIOS so that it reverts any changes to RAID mode making it impossible to install Linux.
    • minikites 10y ago
      Or the bug is that it fails to properly store the initial change?
    • aw3c2 10y ago
      Is it meant as contra Linux though? Or just pro RAID?
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• seesomesense 10y ago
  Class action suit starting...
• ctack 10y ago
  Lenovo is closing a door, leaving an opportunity for someone else to open one.
  • praptak 10y ago
    This might be the case for this particular issue. But in the long term saying no to a deal is not a sufficient defense against freedoms being taken away.
• akerro 10y ago
  Does anyone own novena or librem? I think they have became worth their prices. They're quite expensive, but you don't have to bother with crap like some day you won't be install Linux or BSD distro because someone loves your hardware too much and want to force you to being spied on.
  • morganvachon 10y ago
    Are you seriously equating the Novena with Librem? The former is a fully open hardware/software platform built from the ground up with openness and hackability in mind; some assembly required, configure it the way you want to. The latter is a rebranded x86 laptop with Intel's Management Engine firmly embedded and operational; it's a $600 midrange at best laptop being resold with Linux preinstalled for three times the price because it's "open".
    • akerro 10y ago
      Is there anything else?
      • morganvachon 10y ago
        Sure. The Novena is not for everyone; it's a hacker's dream laptop but not necessarily a power user's. Still, I strongly suggest not wasting money on a Librem and instead spend a little time researching a good Linux compatible laptop. The last I heard, Dell still ships Ubuntu on some of their XPS models, and there are a few companies whose business model is based on officially supporting Linux on their own branded machines. System76[1] and ZaReason[2] immediately come to mind, but if you're seeking a fully open machine with no closed source drivers, look to Libiquity[3] for an older but FSF certified ThinkPad. Yes, it's a rebranded Lenovo so it may be a sour choice given the subject of this article, but it's a solid buy if you don't need today's CPU power. Ditto Minifree[4]. [1] https://system76.com/ https://system76.com/ [2] http://zareason.com/shop/home.php http://zareason.com/shop/home.php [3] https://shop.libiquity.com/product/taurinus-x200 https://shop.libiquity.com/product/taurinus-x200 [4] https://minifree.org/ https://minifree.org/
• rngesus 10y ago
  This sounds like "linux kernel missing support for some new proprietary intel device" I'll see if i can pick one of these up on my way home and do some testing :)
  • voltagex_ 10y ago
    Very interested in seeing your results. I wish I had the cash on hand to just pick up a laptop for the hell of it.
• pmontra 10y ago
  Somebody managed to circumvent the problem on a Yoga 900 by flashing a new BIOS which allowed access to extra configurations. Some soldering required. The details start at https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/m-p/3434304#M8266 https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK... Check the link to imgur in that post. Not for the faint of heart. There are other posts with extra details from the same author in the next pages of the forum.
• FuNe 10y ago
  Lenovo again. As if the recent thinkpad scandal was not enough. Incidentally I know of another company that went to bed with MS and it didn't work out very well - enter Nokia.
  • thirdsun 10y ago
    Don't forget about other greatest hits like the Superfish scandal.
• lottin 10y ago
  Classic Microsoft. Their supposed FOSS turn is an obvious trap. Trust them at your own peril.
  • ptaipale 10y ago
    Remains to be seen if Microsoft actually is behind the problems at all, or is it just a thoughtless implementation in BIOS/hardware side.
  • tychuz 10y ago
    Classic Linux zealot/fanboy. M$ is evil and the root cause of a problem. -Evidence? -It's M$ bruh.
    • vetinari 10y ago
      Yeah, it's not like they have a history of undermining whatever they consider competition, right?
• asdf742 10y ago
  I doubt it's Linux they're concerned about. I think it's more likely that the driver in question only works for Windows 10.
• asdf742 10y ago
  I doubt it's Linux they're concerned about. I think it's more likely that the driver in question only works for Windows 10.
• tinus_hn 10y ago
  Do not attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. I see no conspiracy here, just an OEM that doesn't get it.
  • aangjie 10y ago
    You're quoting Hanlon's Razor.. But this could also be Hanlon's Dodge(https://cluelesscreationcorporation.quora.com/When-the-bureaucracy-fails https://cluelesscreationcorporation.quora.com/When-the-burea...)... I'm not saying it is, but it could be.
    • transfire 10y ago
      Never knew this principle had a name. Will have to try to remember it. Of course for us plebeians, it is oft heard "ignorance is no excuse".
      • MawNicker 10y ago
        I would love a resource that related the various notions, expressions and idioms of society in the way that you just did. The sophistication of this association is well beyond anything machine learning can do. Except for maybe to crawl the internet and determine it was a relevant association stated by some human somewhere.
      • ymse 10y ago
        The quote is attributed to Napoleon, who surely saw his fair share of incompetent generals. It should really be called Napoleons Razor to fall in line with Occam. Who is this Hanlon guy anyway.
  • chanux 10y ago
    That was Hanlon's razor there, for those who halfway remember it like me.
  • MawNicker 10y ago
    I agree. Seems as if a service rep made silly mistake and likely got fired for the negative PR. :/
• silverbln 10y ago
  Microsoft is in a bad shape, isn't it? So this is what we see when titans like MS, Google, Apple, etc. are falling. I expect even more coming...
  • lagadu 10y ago
    "Falling" is an interesting description, considering all 3 corporations you listed doubled or almost tripled their market cap within the last 5 years. If anything they're falling upwards.
• kennell 10y ago
  Amazing how Lenovo managed to turn "Thinkpad", a respected and loved brand name, into shit within just a few years.
  • hatmatrix 10y ago
    Most of the problems are with the non-Thinkpad line, no?
    • godmodus 10y ago
      They're not as water resistant or as durable as they used to be, intact, not at all. I've been using thinkpads for 10 years. I've had a p61, x200, x201s and an x230. The x230 is when it started to break down. It's a shit laptop. Ive also worked on an T440 and upgraded it's ram for a colleague - it's extremely hard to open. Sad to see such a loved frame be butchered like that.
      • watmough 10y ago
        Try a yoga 110e .... Full metal edu chrome book.
    • dagw 10y ago
      It's worse with the non-Thinkpad line, but even the Thinkpads are getting worse. They've also started to add new laptops to the Thinkpad line, like the Thinkpad 11, which have nothing to do with the original line and are pure low-end Lenovo crap.
  • ptaipale 10y ago
    BTW it's now 11 years since the acquisition, quite some time in this business.
• simbalion 10y ago
  Blatant anti-trust violation in several nations. Microsoft has _repeatedly_ lost anti-trust lawsuits in the past 16 years for this exact sort of behavior. How is it that they have not learned their lesson? Windows 10 is failing, and now they've taken actions which will surely incur billions of dollars in fines. I would not be at all surprised if the ruling judge in the inevitable lawsuit punishes them harshly for not learning their lesson the first several times. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_litigation Whatever executives are responsible for this should be drawn and quartered by the investors. And hardly anyone is talking about Lenovo's liability. They are just as guilty as Microsoft and they're a much smaller company, will this destroy them?
  • davidgerard 10y ago
    > Microsoft has _repeatedly_ lost anti-trust lawsuits in the past 16 years for this exact sort of behavior. How is it that they have not learned their lesson? Lack of effective penalties, clearly.
• SFJulie 10y ago
  Basically with DMCA still going on, if you manage to install linux you WILL be a criminal. Freedom is a crime \o/ Computing is fun again
• SFJulie 10y ago
  Basically with DMCA still going on, if you manage to install linux you WILL be a criminal. Freedom is a crime \o/ Computing is fun again
• eth0up 10y ago
  Lenovo... I instantly think of SuperFish. I remember years ago determining to never own a Lenovo after attempting to change the wireless chip to one of identical size/compatibility only to find that it would not boot - the BIOS had a whitelist for one chip. HP has also done this. No Lenovo and no HP for me.
  • unexistance 10y ago
    so what are you using now?
    • eth0up 10y ago
      Acer, with Debian Testing.
• thedonkeycometh 10y ago
  That fossboss site is renowned for badly researched and terribly worded articles
• Fancybear 10y ago
  FANCY BEAR HACKER TEAM We are set of Russian Professional Hackers. we are responsible for the leaking of the Olympic games result and we also hacked the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) Database. we offer professional Hacking services in all forms of hacking jobs which include: - Hack and access DATA FROM ANY COMPANY Web Sites - BANK HACKING AND FUND TRANSFER - E MAIL HACKING AND PASSWORD GENERATOR - HACK AND UPGRADE UNIVERSITY GRADES - HACK INTO YOUR PARTNER’s FACEBOOK , TWITTER, SKYPE, IG, ACCOUNT without their knowledge/Notification - Hack into any GOVERNMENT AGENCY WEBSITE DATABASE - HACK USERNAME & PASSWORD TO ACCESS ANY SITE - HACK AND OBTAIN CASH ADVANCES - HACK AND OBTAIN SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER - Hack into any DATA BASE AND RETRIEVE HIDDEN DOCUMENTS - Hack CREDIT CARD, PAYPAL ACCOUNT, MASTER CARD, AMERICAN EXPRESS etc. - MANIPULATE STOCK TRADEs - HACK MOBILE PHONES, TRACE CALLER's IDENTITY, MONITOR CALLS. - HACK INTO COURT SYSTEM AND CLEAR CRIMINAL RECORD - WE ARE EXPERTS IN DATA AND FILES RECOVERY… - HACK BANK ATM CARD, PIN and PASSWORD DEVELOPMENT..... etc. Contact us: fancybearhackers@mail.ru
• Fancybear 10y ago
  FANCY BEAR HACKER TEAM We are set of Russian Professional Hackers. we are responsible for the leaking of the Olympic games result and we also hacked the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) Database. we offer professional Hacking services in all forms of hacking jobs which include: - Hack and access DATA FROM ANY COMPANY Web Sites - BANK HACKING AND FUND TRANSFER - E MAIL HACKING AND PASSWORD GENERATOR - HACK AND UPGRADE UNIVERSITY GRADES - HACK INTO YOUR PARTNER’s FACEBOOK , TWITTER, SKYPE, IG, ACCOUNT without their knowledge/Notification - Hack into any GOVERNMENT AGENCY WEBSITE DATABASE - HACK USERNAME & PASSWORD TO ACCESS ANY SITE - HACK AND OBTAIN CASH ADVANCES - HACK AND OBTAIN SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER - Hack into any DATA BASE AND RETRIEVE HIDDEN DOCUMENTS - Hack CREDIT CARD, PAYPAL ACCOUNT, MASTER CARD, AMERICAN EXPRESS etc. - MANIPULATE STOCK TRADEs - HACK MOBILE PHONES, TRACE CALLER's IDENTITY, MONITOR CALLS. - HACK INTO COURT SYSTEM AND CLEAR CRIMINAL RECORD - WE ARE EXPERTS IN DATA AND FILES RECOVERY… - HACK BANK ATM CARD, PIN and PASSWORD DEVELOPMENT..... etc. Contact us: fancybearhackers@mail.ru
• ensiferum 10y ago
  I have been a long time ThinkPad user and recently purchased my latest ThinkPad T460p. Sadly it has some issues, the latest NVidia drivers don't work on the device but I'm forced to use the 1 year old driver that Lenovo provides in their packages. Figuring this out took my several days of trouble shooting (only dx9 was affected). Also the system fan is constantly running. I went to their support site and the online support is not available in my country and the "contact support" system doesn't/didn't work (opened some empty box in the website). Super frustrating. As much I hate to admit it, the ThinkPad is no longer what it was back in the IBM era. Combined with stories about vendor lock in. I'm saddened to say that this shall be the last ThinkPad/Lenovo that I'm purchasing.
  • ThePhysicist 10y ago
    I bought a T460p a few months back, and while it's a very good laptop for the price it had a very annoying problem with the Trackpad that would occasionally just stop working after suspending the laptop (and only doing a cold reboot with all power cords removed would fix this). Sadly it took Lenovo two weeks to send a technician with a replacement part to fix the issue, contrary to their "24 hour target" advertised on the website. A few years ago customer support was much more responsive, so it seems that they are indeed trying to cut costs in that area. That said, I also use a X1 Carbon, which runs great with Linux and doesn't have any problems at all concerning hardware and drivers (graphics card, mobile broadband, two external monitors via DP all works flawlessly and the battery lasts 6-8 hours under normal use). I'm confident that the Linux support for the T460p will improve as well as developers have time to write better drivers, after all it's still pretty new hardware (barely six months old).
  • samsonradu 10y ago
    Ha, same problem here with an ideapad z500 and Linux Mint, latest NVidia drivers prevent my laptop from booting. Now I have to resort to XServer and adjusting brightness via the command line: xrandr --output LVDS1 --brightness 1.0 But hell it's a great laptop for its price.
  • vegabook 10y ago
    Honestly Dell does Ubuntu pre-installed and therefore its XPS and Precision models never give this kind of bullshit uphill, even if you don't buy the Ubuntu version. It's now my go-to vendor, simply because I consider any vendor which does not do full testing on Linux, and sells any hardware that doesn't fully support it, as suspect and not worth bothering with. I'm sad to see that Lenovo is now in that camp.
• alphadevx 10y ago
  Get a Developer Edition XPS 13 from Dell instead, comes with Linux pre-installed. I have one and they are awesome, if manufacturers support Linux they get my $.
  • easytiger 10y ago
    I bought a Lenovo X1 Carbon (most recent gen) and really regret it for a great many reasons. Wish I had gone for the XPS. Actually what swayed me was the very slightly larger screen.
    • alphadevx 10y ago
      I think you can get 15" models from Dell under their "Project Sputnik" program too, well worth following Barton's blog for news on that: http://bartongeorge.io/ http://bartongeorge.io/
      • jerf 10y ago
        I bought the normal 15" XPS with Windows recently. Ubuntu 16.04 has gone on it fairly well. It does sound like that is the first version that works correctly, though; you can find a lot of complaints on the net about older versions having serious issues. Ubuntu can't seem to control the backlight, but "xbacklight" does, so it's not a driver thing. I presume other similarly recent distros with similar drivers will work. (I wanted a Windows install for gaming.) For this post I just tried the webcam for the first time; as reviews note it's sort of a nostril-cam and I also noticed if you're typing your fingers loom large, but I don't use it much. I haven't tried the Thunderbolt or "true" USB3, because I don't have any hardware for the fancy ports. I did get the HDMI out to work in Linux. I haven't screwed with the dual-graphics card setup at all, and it seems to work, in the sense that it isn't causing me any trouble. I haven't directly timed the battery but it's getting at least decent life. (I also pre-emptively replaced the wireless card with https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0167N9R8E/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0167N9R8E/ref=oh_aui_deta... , so I guess I can't promise the broadcom works out of the box.) I did have the motherboard die on this three weeks in, though, which has been frustrating. When it works it's a nice system, a nice counter to the trend of everything being made out of cheap plastic. You can get nicer specs for the same price but it'll be a physically cheaper machine. I've actually had more trouble with the Windows side in terms of drivers. The parathetically-aforementioned pre-emptive replacement of the wireless was on the advice of a coworker who had trouble with the card in Windows. When you turn off the RAID so you can install Linux, the NVMe drivers in Windows become unstable. Some people apparently install the Samsung 950 Pro drivers, which can then have its own problems because of hardware mismatch; I accidentally resolved this problem by purchasing a Samsung 950 Pro anyhow. (I wanted a nice flash drive but didn't want to spend the $$$ upgrading all the other things in the pre-packaged configurations. Plus they don't say what their flash drive is, it's probably not as good.) Also it seems to help if you remove the Dell drivers for the headphone port and revert to the reference drivers, as otherwise the machine can hang when you plug headphones in under load. Which is sorta dumb. I recommend making the first thing you do with the system to build a Windows 10 install image and then make a clean install after turning off the RAID, but be sure to bundle the drivers on the Dell webpage onto the install media, particularly the wireless ones. (I didn't know this at the time, but apparently Windows 10 has licenses stored on the motherboard now, so you don't have to hassle with license keys. It just installs.) Apparently there's some way with fighting through the RAID setting change to repair the system but a clean install is nice for other reasons. (Not too much crapware, but, still.) I will agree that the previous is a potentially frustrating set of issues for either OS for a brand new, high-end laptop. I'm used to beating my laptops into submission anyhow since I run my own quirky XMonad install and other such things, so getting this all slick was just par for the course for me. Assuming this stays working I'm quite happy with it (I'm even really liking the keyboard which a lot of people complain about, so YMMV), but it certainly could have been a nicer experience.
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• simophin 10y ago
  disgusting company. it's the first time I'm ashamed of being a Chinese
  • talideon 10y ago
    ...since 1989?
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• Happpy 10y ago
  I was/am going to buy a Thinkpad T560. Is it affected? When is it a 'signature edition'?
• simbalion 10y ago
  The website is down, this story deserves it's own website behind a CDN so people can be adequately warned. win10antitrust.us is available on namecheap.com for $0.88.
• transfire 10y ago
  Never mind that UEFI has already made Linux a second class citizen, and comes with a Microsoft tax. It reminds me of how Islam handles d'em other religions.
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• supergirl 10y ago
  you all put too much value in some "product expert" guy's words. if you dealt with support before, you know 90% of the time they don't know what they're talking about. I mean, come on, some support guy reveals a SECRET AGREEMENT between Microsoft and Lenovo? Come on.
• supergirl 10y ago
  A "product expert" forum support guy reveals a SECRET AGREEMENT between Microsoft and Lenovo. Come on.
  • kbart 10y ago
    I don't see word "secret" anywhere in his answer. EDIT: http://imgur.com/a/niewu http://imgur.com/a/niewu
    • makaronin 10y ago
      I named it secret because these laptops have been sold for months and no one was aware of this agreement with MS until today.
  • paulintrognon 10y ago
    The Lenovo guy did not say it was a secret. And it's not posted in a lost forum somewhere, but in response to a review on a very popular sites on which Lenovo sells a lot. Seems legit to me.
• elt0n 10y ago
  Gross
• tunichtgut 10y ago
  Well, i will never buy one of those. Thats for sure.
• CommanderData 10y ago
  This is shocking. I was looking for an ultrabook and the Lenovo Yoga series 700 or 900 series appealed to me. Learning this I don't know what to do now.
  • coldtea 10y ago
    >This is shocking. No, the fact that people would believe some conspiracy with the specific intent of locking Linux is the case is shocking.
  • sheokand011 10y ago
    Get a Developer Edition XPS 13 from Dell instead
• userbinator 10y ago
  I wonder what happens if you try to boot DOS (e.g. from USB) on current hardware, including these laptops. My newest laptop isn't that new; it's an IBM x60 (the famous one with the fully free BIOS available, although I haven't switched... yet) and it does run DOS perfectly well. When I replaced the HDD with an SSD all I had to do was image the partition over to the new one and everything just worked. I've run Linux and even OS X(!) on it. But from the experiences I've seen of people with newer hardware, including articles like this and the other one about new CPUs and Windows 10, it appears newer PCs are becoming far more closed and proprietary, and that's definitely NOT a good thing.
• mariusavram 10y ago
  This might be helpful for some of you: 10 Places To Buy A Laptop With Linux Preloaded http://www.cyberciti.biz/hardware/laptop-computers-with-linux-installed-or-preloaded/ http://www.cyberciti.biz/hardware/laptop-computers-with-linu...
• paulintrognon 10y ago
  The worst part is the reaction from Lenovo in my opinion. They just locked the thread reporting the issue on their forum, not saying anything about the problem itself but instead threatened the community to turn the pre-approval option on. This really makes me angry and makes me want to boycott their products. I really hope this issue will spread so that Lenovo learn that they made a bad move on this one. It also made me realize how important it is to have a community on which one can rely to spread problems like this one. Several people on their own can't do much against big companies, but a big tech commnity can.
  • buro9 10y ago
    > It also made me realize how important it is to have a community on which one can rely to spread problems like this one. Several people on their own can't do much against big companies, but a big tech commnity can. I never think that a support forum should be owned by the company. There is a clear conflict of interest. The company does not want you calling them out on product flaws or their behaviour, on a site that they own and that reflects on their brand and products. It's a shame that fora frequently are not financially viable, as they do need to exist to provide a centralised place for consumers to gather, share problems, diagnose and solve them. Companies shouldn't run their support forums. Instead, companies should offer a better level of support by default.
    • sideshowb 10y ago
      No company runs its own support forum ... as far as I'm aware Stack Overflow is ad supported right? ;)
      • randoramax 10y ago
        This. Also companies that delete embarrassing threads are shitty companies, I wouldn't buy anything there. Support forums are everywhere, from Reddit to SO anyway
    • logicallee 10y ago
      >Companies shouldn't run their support forums. Instead, companies should offer a better level of support by default. To clarify, by "run" do you mean "have one" (that they therefore by definition operate) or do you mean exercise moderator power over?
• phantom_oracle 10y ago
  I see lots of folks referencing the Dell XPS laptops. Just as a FWIW, here is another option: https://system76.com/ https://system76.com/ As per my opinion on this, I'd rather see people not have knee-jerk reactions to Lenovo screwing up Linux support and people rushing for "alternatives", but rather make a concerted effort to support companies focused on Linux-supported hardware (for the long-term). Also, this story combined with the HP printer story really makes you wonder why hardware manufacturers are going backwards towards locked-systems when their software divisions "embrace the world of open source". Hardware really is the final frontier for open-source.
  • ioltas 10y ago
    Thanks for the link. Seeing such companies makes me confident that there will be always alternatives whatever the limitations put by so-said-brand manufacturers are.
    • beagle3 10y ago
      It shouldn't make you confident. In the economy of scales involved, it takes very little for system76 to disappear and dell to stop selling linux laptops.
      • ansible 10y ago
        There are a bunch of Linux laptops for sale these days, they're called "Chromebooks". You can install crouton to get a regular Linux environment. There are limitations, of course. Especially if you want a lot of processing power. The primary places I use my Chromebook are where I have Internet connectivity, so I decided not to carry around all the computer power I need on a regular basis.
  • rebeccaskinner 10y ago
    Have system76 laptops improved at all over the last few years? The last couple of laptop upgrade cycles I looked at them and the general consensus was that they were a overpriced for the hardware, and had really shoddy build quality and bad customer service.
• lnx01 10y ago
  Stallman was right.
• StreamBright 10y ago
  I like these catchy titles. How long is this going to last? We have hackers who can crack iPhone pin codes designed to be secure and make hacking impossible. I guess we see a new BIOS that can enable Linux installations within a month.
  • b2m9 10y ago
    I think that's not really the point here. If the story turns out to be true, then Microsoft is abusing its market power to lock down devices from vendors like Lenovo and friends. Since Microsoft got into trouble with the EU before, they should know that this could potentially cause another investigation. Hands down, a big company is actively trying to make devices unusable with anything but their software. This is not in the interest of consumers, therefore probably illegal in some regions.
  • borplk 10y ago
    That's not the point. I'm not paying thousands of dollars to get something that needs to be "cracked" to work the way I want. Lenovo will not see a single dollar of mine, ever.
  • Sylos 10y ago
    Someone already managed to break it. If I understood it correctly by somehow overwriting the ROM. That's not the point, though, as others have already said.
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• UK-AL 10y ago
  Silly headline. In reality they're using a weird raid mode, no ones written a linux driver for yet.
  • issaria 10y ago
    It's not weird, it's put there deliberately to prevent people install other operation system.
  • captainmuon 10y ago
    That would not be headline-worthy. There are many devices that don't have Linux drivers. The real problem is that somebody went out of their way to remove the ACPI setting in the BIOS, and apparently did this only for the Microsoft store "Signature" edition. Furthermore it doesn't seem to be a technical neccessity, since after re-flashing the BIOS the laptop works in ACPI mode with Linux and Windows. Whether or not this was due to malice is besides the point for me personally. They should just say "oops, my bad" and set the flag allowing ACPI in the next BIOS revision.
• aabajian 10y ago
  I have mixed feelings about this. If the company owned the ecosystem - e.g. a Microsoft Surface or an Apple MacBook, would we expect them to support a different operating system? Albeit, MacBooks do support Windows. I think it's fair that a vendor support the operating system(s) they advertise. If Lenovo doesn't claim to support Linux (or any other OS), it's OK for them to do whatever they want to prevent users from installing a different operating system. I'd even go so far as saying that a different OS should void the warranty. There are programs out their that will brick the BIOS if ran incorrectly. I know this is controversial, but it's a functional business model of a large company that needs to provide support. With that said, nobody should ever buy Lenovo after their SuperFish ordeal. They should've been sued out of business: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfish#Lenovo_security_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfish#Lenovo_security_inci...
• swiley 10y ago
  My current laptop is dying, stuff like this (lenovo in particular often comes to mind) is why I keep fixing it. Shopping for a new computer is just so incredibly unpleasant.
• marcell 10y ago
  As much as I'd love to (hate to) see vintage 1990's Microsoft back in evil empire mode, this doesn't make sense. What is their motive here? The Windows vs. Linux battle is long settled, and Windows is not under thread from Linux. Why would they intentionally block Linux on one vendors laptops, gaining basically no profit/market share, and risking lawsuits and online outrage? Hanlon's razor applies; I assume this is a case of incompetence. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
  • beagle3 10y ago
    In my opinion, motive is locking win7/win8 out. Locking linux out would be a happy (for MS) coincidence in this case.
    • JBReefer 10y ago
      I'm going with this theory - it makes more sense than "MS HATES LINUX!!11!!"
  • eloisant 10y ago
    To keep control on what users do with the hardware? Same reason most Android devices have locked bootloaders.
  • blubb-fish 10y ago
    > The Windows vs. Linux battle is long settled What makes you think that? As far as I can tell there is still a reasonable chance that Linux and Linux-typical software like LibreOffice will gain more market share at the cost of Microsoft products. Especially with preinstalled and -configured notebooks working with Linux.
  • deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
• borplk 10y ago
  For the past couple of years I have been consistently amazed at how bad Lenovo has become. What a bunch of morons are in charge. Every year I wonder if it's going to get worse and sure enough they do something stupid.
• zekevermillion 10y ago
  I guess there is some logic, in that refurbished Lenovo laptops are still one of the more popular vehicles for Linux. I just installed Fedora on a refurb T410, slapped in an SSD, and for my (rather light) workload I notice no disadvantage compared with desktop Win10.
• tiatia 10y ago
  Well. Typical Chinese. If they can make a buck by screwing a customer over, they will make the buck. You know Keizen? From Japan? The continuous improvement of products.. Chinese have something similar. Geizen. ("to be stingy"). Geizen, the continuous deterioration of product quality to increase profits. Same a millimeter in the thickness of the case. Use cheaper steal, make the cables shorter. The thing needs 6 screws? It will hold fine with 5. Will even hold with only 4. Maybe 3? And if Microsoft gives a buck to lock the consumer in, why bother telling him? All part of Geizen.
• vanderZwan 10y ago
  This looks like a timely moment to bring up Cory Doctorow's The coming war on general computation talk: > So today we have marketing departments who say things like "we don't need computers, we need... appliances. Make me a computer that doesn't run every program, just a program that does this specialized task, like streaming audio, or routing packets, or playing Xbox games, and make sure it doesn't run programs that I haven't authorized that might undermine our profits". And on the surface, this seems like a reasonable idea -- just a program that does one specialized task -- after all, we can put an electric motor in a blender, and we can install a motor in a dishwasher, and we don't worry if it's still possible to run a dishwashing program in a blender. But that's not what we do when we turn a computer into an appliance. We're not making a computer that runs only the "appliance" app; we're making a computer that can run every program, but which uses some combination of rootkits, spyware, and code-signing to prevent the user from knowing which processes are running, from installing her own software, and from terminating processes that she doesn't want. In other words, an appliance is not a stripped-down computer -- it is a fully functional computer with spyware on it out of the box. Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUEvRyemKSg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUEvRyemKSg Transcript: https://github.com/jwise/28c3-doctorow/blob/master/transcript.md https://github.com/jwise/28c3-doctorow/blob/master/transcrip...
  • wolfgke 10y ago
    > This looks like a timely moment to bring up Cory Doctorow's The coming war on general computation talk: One should also watch the (IMHO unfairly) less well-known sequel Fighting Back in the War on General Purpose Computers > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT6itfUUsoQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT6itfUUsoQ
    • vanderZwan 10y ago
      Thank you, I missed that one myself!
  • wyager 10y ago
    Vernor Vinge's Rainbows End is a good sci-fi novel (partially) about potential long-term consequences of the war on general purpose computing.
• AhtiK 10y ago
  Timing couldn't be better to now announce the new MacBook Pro. The issue doesn't affect Thinkpad line but sure does help people to make a buying decision between a MBP and a Thinkpad.
  • jpetso 10y ago
    Because Macbook Pros are known for hassle-free Linux support?
    • AhtiK 10y ago
      For most of these people it's a decision between OS X on MBP vs Linux on a non-Apple laptop.
• Steeeve 10y ago
  This kind of thing is seen as a positive in the infosec space, is it not? Meaning that an end user can't come along and boot linux (or anything else) via USB and bypass system security controls. I'm personally not a fan and won't buy anything locked up in such a way, but I'm pretty sure that the security team is. Regardless, we see this all the time in other devices - tablets, phones, routers, gaming consoles, etc. It's only logical that MS would want to pursue lock-in in their subsidized environments as well.
  • striking 10y ago
    If your disk is encrypted, no one's getting in there. The most they could do is wipe your machine clean and use it as their own, and I think that's still possible with this model of laptop.
    • deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
• makaronin 10y ago
  Why was the title changed to "a recent Lenovo laptop" when at least four models are affected: Yoga 900 ISK2, Yoga 900S,Yoga 710S and Ideapad 710S.
  • fbernier 10y ago
    This. I just got a new T460S and installed linux without any problems.
  • captainmuon 10y ago
    Also, it seems only "Signature Edition" laptops are affected, i.e. those from the MS store. I think that makes a big difference.
    • makaronin 10y ago
      It does not make a much difference as all new Lenovo ultrabooks are "Signature Edition".
• JepZ 10y ago
  I really like this post... Linux seems to become more mainstream :D
• ausjke 10y ago
  I hope this is not true, that Microsoft is still in war with open source, under a different cover this time, embrace-then-eliminate. but again, this has been its gene for decades, so really no surprise to me.
• debacle 10y ago
  I've been boycotting Lenovo for years. Their build quality is low quality compared to other vendors (Asus, Dell, MSI) and then there's stuff like this.
  • JadeNB 10y ago
    In a spurt of dissatisfaction with Apple, I tried a few years ago to buy a PC, and bought a Lenovo precisely because I'd heard such good things about their build quality. My monitor had a prominent dead pixel and my spacebar didn't work, so my impression wasn't positive, but I thought that it was just bad luck. Has the community perception of Lenovo's build quality changed, or did I just get the wrong idea in the first place?
    • debacle 10y ago
      You got the wrong idea in the first place, I think. For the first few years after the IBM split, Thinkpads were of pretty good quality. Now they're pretty poor, and Lenovo's other offerings are generally crap.
• zx2c4 10y ago
  The community's reaction seems absurd to me. For whatever reason, the device only exposes some sort of RAID controller to the OS, and for whatever reason, there's no working option for exposing a more standard AHCI interface instead. The problem is that Linux doesn't (yet) have a driver for that RAID controller. Okay, great. Linux doesn't yet support particular piece of hardware. News at 11. Just like usual, if you want odd hardware to work on Linux, you'll have to write some drivers. That's just how it is. This is nothing new or scandalous. The reasons why Lenovo doesn't support AHCI don't matter. They don't, so now somebody must write a driver for what they do support. Once that happens, nobody will complain anymore. It's that simple. Nothing is being locked with Secure Boot; nothing is being locked with crypto; there is no DRM at play. If you want hardware support, write a driver. As for all the Lenovo-bashing going on here... My personal experience with my new Thinkpad P50 has been overwhelmingly positive. It's working on Gentoo Linux entirely: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Lenovo_ThinkPad_P50 https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Lenovo_ThinkPad_P50
  • 0xcde4c3db 10y ago
    ThinkPad and IdeaPad are notionally just two product lines with different target markets, but everything I've seen related to them suggests that the difference is more like buying from two separate companies.
    • zx2c4 10y ago
      Interestingly, technical support for ThinkPad still appears to be provided by IBM, which is pretty nice. When parts come in the mail they have the IBM security tape on it. It's got that old school professional enterprise feeling.
  • arca_vorago 10y ago
    It seems absurd because you complete glossed over the most important part: " and for whatever reason, there's no working option for exposing a more standard AHCI interface instead." This isn't linux's fault for not supporting some non-standard raid driver, this is lenovos fault for not allowing users to change the bios settings to non-raid. Also, just because you are been using a Thinkpad sucessfully (which is largely been immune from the issues we are talking about compared to the rest of lenovo line), to use that to dismiss the very real issues regarding lenovo's recent moves is disingenuous at best.
• bscm 10y ago
  wait a minute, I thought Microsoft loved linux?
• known 10y ago
  Sounds like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predatory_lending https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predatory_lending
• JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  ...until Linux supports the new hardware modes. Linux always lags in new hardware support. Other than the appallingly bad way Lenovo handled the questions on their site, is this news?
• AdmiralAsshat 10y ago
  Looks like ZDNet picked up the story: http://www.zdnet.com/article/lenovo-reportedly-blocking-linux-on-windows-10-signature-edition-pcs/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/lenovo-reportedly-blocking-linu... Maybe we'll get an official response from Lenovo.
  • the17armorguy 10y ago
    The ZDNet article above got an update, an offical response from Lenovo. I copied it from there: UPDATE 9-21-16 7:25 PDT: Comment from Lenovo: "To improve system performance, Lenovo is leading an industry trend of adopting RAID on the SSDs in certain product configurations. Lenovo does not intentionally block customers using other operating systems on its devices and is fully committed to providing Linux certifications and installation guidance on a wide range of products -https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/documents/pd031426 https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/documents/pd031426. Unsupported models will rely on Linux operating system vendors releasing new kernel and drivers to support features such as RAID on SSD." So no Microsoft involvement, just a lack of drivers on Linux's part. Although Lenovo could offer a method for owners to switch the SSD from RAID to AHCI mode to improve compatibility.]
    • ManlyBread 10y ago
      >To improve system performance How can they say that when this improvement effectively brings performance to zero for Linux users?
• danjoc 10y ago
  >but they apologized for superfish >but the rootkit is only a problem on Windows >but it's still a great machine for Linux I hope the people who told me that are now reading this.
• zenobit256 10y ago
  I have to wonder if this will end up spilling over into the ThinkPad line... I'd be worried at that point.
• ravenstine 10y ago
  It's things lIke this that destroy any enthusiasm over Microsoft doing things like bring Bash to Windows. Clearly, nothing has changed in Microsoft's business practices, and we can't let PR like "Microsoft loves Linux" fool us. Baller might as well still be CEO.
• textmode 10y ago
  In a world where the most important computer networks and a substantial number of devices connecting to them run on free, open source software, the user's hardware needs are simple: 1. it must work with an open source bootloader and 2. there must be some open source drivers for it. But those are actually software needs, so how is it that hardware companies are allowed to dictate the outcome of the above two points? How are they allowed under the law to create intentional incompatibilities? Can other companies reverse engineer in order to write free, open source software? Does anyone ever violate an NDA and win? The benefits of inoperability are undeniable. These issues were ripe in the 1980's and are still very relevant today. The discussion of the IBM PC BIOS in this thread is worth reading.
• aws_ls 10y ago
  So sad to hear this. I am typing this comment from a Ubuntu on Lenovo (some 2014 model). Looks like Lenovo is not interested in business of us people. Also Microsoft, of late, has been getting some positive news regarding open source contribution. Looks like there are parts of it, which continue to remind us, why we hated it so much pre 2004, when it lost the computing dominance war with Google.
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• dream-on 10y ago
  "Windows 10 can't be installed on a recent Raspberry Pi." I am sure it can -- and one wonders why Microsoft bothered to port it -- but why go through the hassle? The point is that users can buy small form factor computers and these computers do not run Windows. They are called development boards. Perhaps these boards are the future of "general purpose computing". And perhaps they can be paired these with sexy enclosures that are made by company run by designers that does not sell electronics - they only sell enclosures. And they look better than Apple's. Then I woke up. It was just a dream.
• mvidal01 10y ago
  I was just about to consider a Lenovo laptop. This is such a turn off that I'm putting it way down the list now.
• m0ngr31 10y ago
  I have a Lenovo Yoga 900 Signature Edition I just picked up from the Microsoft Store a month or so ago. Works great with Ubuntu, I guess I got an older model that didn't have the issue. Although, I saw this mentioned a while ago when I was first installing it: https://allanbogh.com/2015/12/23/installing-ubuntu-16-04-daily-on-a-lenovo-yoga-900/ https://allanbogh.com/2015/12/23/installing-ubuntu-16-04-dai...
• yuhong 10y ago
  This is a good time to mention https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/thinkcentre_bios/9sj995usa.txt https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/thinkcentre_bios/9sj995us..., with the quote "Fixes the issue of installing Redhat 6.3." (If you don't remember: https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/20187.html https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/20187.html)
• mjg59 10y ago
  This is horribly misleading - http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/44694.html http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/44694.html has some more details. But the short version is that Lenovo are force-enabling a feature that ensures they get better power management, and which is unsupported under Linux because Intel have never submitted code. If Intel ever do so (or if someone else writes it), Linux will just work.
  • sounds 10y ago
    It's not horribly misleading, Matt. If you view it from the perspective of the average Linux user, I think you'd agree that: 1. Lenovo is usually one of the first choices for a Linux laptop. 2. Lenovo obviously has made the call here to ignore the Linux community on their forums. 3. Lenovo has actually stated "This system has a Signature Edition of Windows 10 Home installed. It is locked per our agreement with Microsoft." -- whatever that means. 4. Win10 dropped the requirement that Secure Boot can be disabled. This has already been filed as a complaint to the EC: I remember when in 2012 secure boot was announced for the new Windows 8. I am from Spain, and at that time a lawyer (Jose Maria Lancho[1]) that was the president of a Spanish LUG (Hispalinux) create a official complain to the European Commission about the Windows 8 certification program in relation with the requirements of Secure Boot. At that time the certification program describe that one of the requirement was to have an option to disable SB via UEFI, but only for desktops and laptops, but not for tables. Now this option is not anymore required for the Windows 10 certification program. That point was one of the argument that we exposed in the complain. Is very sad to see that the circle is closing as we predicted in the complain, and with this new Signature Edition thing a new movement in this direction. And so far, the European Commission is not doing anything in that regard, and less and less hackers, lawyers, and groups are fighting against this kind of movement. https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_microsoft_signature_pc_program_now/d7vs4qc https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_micro...
  • amluto 10y ago
    Do you happen to know what RAID mode does exactly? I will gladly write the Linux NVMe support for it if it's reasonably straightforward, but I couldn't get my XPS 13 to boot anything at all in RAID mode so I'm a bit stuck. P.S. that missing NVMe power saving piece is now implemented for Linux and will hopefully be queued for Linux 4.9 :)
• joelbondurant 10y ago
  Computing appliances produced by Apple and Lenovo are better for most developers than complicated tools like computers.
• tracker1 10y ago
  And the first distro to release an update that supports this hardware configuration wins.. and imho, that would be awesome... the behavior itself by Lenovo is deplorable, and I will probably not be buying from them ever again... Haven't purchased a Sony labelled product in well over a decade now.. Lenovo is on that list too after the spyware issue a couple years ago.
• jorgecastillo 10y ago
  Another Lenovo story. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9072424 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9072424
• paulddraper 10y ago
  To quote Ashtefere on Reddit, > * The linux drivers for the NVME chipset in this laptop do not yet exist. No one is stopping them from being built. > * Signature edition PC's must be locked into their highest performing mode in bios - this happens to be the NVME raid mode in the bios > * Windows can't even see this because the chipset is so new, thus the extra driver needing to be loaded. > * Lenovo have not yet built a linux version of this driver, but when they do you would also need to preinstall it or use a distro that includes it. > * Again, no one is stopping you from building the driver yourself. https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_microsoft_signature_pc_program_now/d7vym2w https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_micro... So....it sucks for compatibility. But it doesn't preclude compatibility.
  • Udo 10y ago
    I wish I could upvote this a thousand times, you're the only one here who saw it apparently, and nobody seems to care that the premise of this whole "scandal" is entirely fabricated. It feels strange to be defending Microsoft and Lenovo like this, but Microsoft most likely had nothing to do with this specific configuration. There is no version of Windows that comes with a driver for this RAID controller, just the same as there is no Linux driver yet. While I might be tempted to believe that locking to RAID mode is a deliberate choice by Lenovo to take options away from users, the target here is not Linux. The target is Joe User who now can't (re-)install Windows on his machine. That's the freedom they're trying to take away. Of course it doesn't help that Lenovo's marketing/support departments are utterly incompetent in communicating this, and switch to "guilty mode" by default. By the way, actually locking out Linux would be an easy feat: just require a Microsoft-signed secure boot loader in UEFI. That's the real horror scenario, not this RAID driver nonsense.
• niutech 10y ago
  Don't buy a Lenovo laptop. You won't have control over it. They were installing ton of adware and a rootkit which is enabled even after formatting disk, and now this.
• aabbcc1241 10y ago
  I won't buy those 'designed for Windows' machine, even when it's 'compatible' to Linux out of the box. Why bother to pay for the M$ license fee while you're going to rub out the disk and install Linux at the first place? (just bought a laptop from System76 recently)