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Praise for Intelligence Can Undermine Children's Motivation (1998) [pdf]

253 points by EvgeniyZh 10y ago

jedberg 10y ago
TL;DR: If you're interacting with a kid, try to avoid saying, "you're so smart!" and instead say, "You've picked this up really quickly" or "you're such a hard worker". If you tell a child they are smart then they will stop trying either because they assume they can get by on their intelligence or because they are afraid of failing and loosing your praise about how smart they are.
- dllthomas 10y ago
  "You worked really hard on it that!" seems a bad thing to say without having observed the kid working hard. I know if I'd been told I worked hard on something that came easily, it would have cost the speaker credibility. My tentative plan, for my son, is to phrase it as a question. "Did you work hard on this?". If so, praise the hard work. If not, "let's find you something more challenging".
  - jedberg 10y ago
    You're absolutely right. Thank you for your suggestion, I think I'll change my own phrasing if I didn't witness the hard work.
  - timthorn 10y ago
    In addition, the work being praised needs to be effective.
    - taylorwc 10y ago
      I disagree. If your child does something to the absolute best of his/her abilities, but is not very effective, isn't that still praiseworthy? I have a two year old who exhibits no mastery of the English language, but I praise her when she tries out a new word on for size and keeps attempting to perfect it.
      - hashkb 10y ago
        You're praising effective practicing habits. You can praise learning from mistakes. That's great. I always took "A for effort" to be extremely patronizing because I was trying to do the thing right.
        gohrt 10y ago
        The problem is the "A", not the "A for effort". "A for results" just highlights an arbitrary bar that is likely too low or too high.
      - IanCal 10y ago
        I guess a modification on that accounting for the expected performance would make sense.
      - timthorn 10y ago
        It might be praiseworthy, but I was talking from the perspective of using praise to improve attainment. Dweck has written about the misapplication of her theories in recent years: http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2015/09/23/carol-dweck-revisits-the-growth-mindset.html http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2015/09/23/carol-dweck-rev...
    - dllthomas 10y ago
      I think it's probably more important that it's aimed at being effective than that it is genuinely being effective.
  - MattGrommes 10y ago
    One problem with this type of idea is that kids think in very different ways than you. This question could lead to your son thinking you don't trust that he's working since you're constantly questioning him. I've found I can usually tell when my kids have actually worked hard on something or slacked off so if they're slacking I find other ways of talking about it. I'm not saying this is a bad idea for sure but I've run in so many cases with my kids where my "clever" way of communicating with them came back and bit me in ways I never would have considered. And since they can't necessarily communicate things well it could fester or direct his thinking in directions you won't know about for a long time. Parenting is hard. :)
    - dllthomas 10y ago
      > I've found I can usually tell when my kids have actually worked hard on something or slacked off so if they're slacking I find other ways of talking about it. The distinction I was drawing wasn't between having worked and having slacked, but having had to work and having a task easy enough work wasn't needed. More generally, I do take your point - no plan survives contact with the enemy :p
  - rgoddard 10y ago
    One issue which is neglected when this topic comes up is confusing the method of teaching vs what you are trying to teach. What you are trying to teach is the value of working hard and not only relying on being smart. The mechanism that is being used to teach this is praise. But praise is an external motivation. We know that people work best when they have an intrinsic motivation. That is not to say that external rewards cannot be used. But they should be used with other forms of reinforcement. With our daughter when working with her we focus on encouraging her to keep on trying when encountering some difficulty. And also having her focus on the sense of satisfaction from having completed a difficult task. Personally I know I feel a greater sense of satisfaction after having actually worked for something compared to being able to do something based more on intelligence.
  - gohrt 10y ago
    Sure, lying is unhelpful. The point is to praise the positive qualities that are under the recipient's control, such has effort, persistence, decisions. Generally, praise them for what they DO, not who they ARE.
    - dllthomas 10y ago
      I wouldn't characterize it as lying, so much as making an assumption.
  - wrsh07 10y ago
    Just try to give credit for the things they did, not for what they are. Eg if they paid attention in class, or if they took good notes, or if they did the homework, or if they studied -- credit that. Hopefully as a parent you'll have some idea of how they're spending their time. But I absolutely agree that saying something false is not going to do them any favors [although they might learn that you have no idea how they spend their time].
  - thomasahle 10y ago
    Also, obviously perhaps, just try to follow your sons/daughters progress, so you can praise/comment on what was actually hard for them.
- mathattack 10y ago
  Yes. This is also why I nudge my kids to try things that require work no matter the ability (say chess, where there are always better players) versus things graded against a narrow peer group (Say math, where once you're "at level" the teacher pays less attention.)
- dominotw 10y ago
  But doesn't every praise, every comparison create a narrative for the child. A narrative that the brain learns to lean on and uses to form self-identity ( hard-worker, good boy ect). for example, Now the child has learned associate praise( and love) with being a hard worker. This is now his framework for his life, a prison he can never escape. I think this a form of child abuse, to destroy child's spirit with praises, comparisons etc. Yet society sees this a something positive. Why can't children learn for their own enjoyment, kids already have great deal of intrinsic motivation why do we need to praise him.
  - nostrebored 10y ago
    Why is working hard a bad thing? In what world is working hard ever a bad thing? You're conflating "working hard" with drudgery, or working hard at a job. Praising children for working hard is praising them for their drive. I hope to raise a driven child. Drive is the enabler for acting out your internal desires. I'd congratulate my kid for working hard on solving a puzzle or getting better at playing a game. I do think that stressing taking care of your mental health is very important. Sometimes downtime is needed.
  - Practicality 10y ago
    So, you can't give your child guidance on good behavior? Anarchy parenting?
  - pasquinelli 10y ago
    there's no escaping setting a narrative. refraining to praise or compare also sets a narrative. so given that, how can you expect a parent not to at least try to build a good one for their child? "This is now his framework for his life, a prison he can never escape." pfft. one's "framework for life" isn't any more durable than anything else.
  - sliverstorm 10y ago
    Why can't children learn for their own enjoyment Have you never met someone whose spirit was broken as a kid, as they struggled to earn praise, but their successes or even struggles were never acknowledged? It's practically a character archetype. Kids hunger for approval from their parents, the same way you hunger for approval from your heroes.
- danielweber 10y ago
  I was aware of this research for my first kid. Telling them how hard they worked just gave them an excuse to quit later. "This is too difficult! You said so!" Kids are hard.
  - gohrt 10y ago
    Kids are good at making excuses regardless. Logic only slows them down a little bit. "Yes, it's difficult. The important things are difficult. It's not too difficult for you to do. You can do better each time you try again."
- cloudjacker 10y ago
  and does that conclusion create a different and objectively better response? kids know what synonyms are.
- jdimov10 10y ago
  Real TL;DR: This is a big load of BS from people who know nothing about children OR life. I'm going to keep expressing my awe at how clever my kids are every chance I get. You tell yours to work hard all you want.
- ChuckMcM 10y ago
  Having raised three kids I have learned that 99% of all parenting advice does not apply to any specific child and any specific parent. That said, parenting goals are consistent; Helping kids to understand the world around them, understand their effect on the world, and recognizing what it will take to achieve a particular goal. Telling kids they are "smart" is part of the "understanding the world around them" goal. The reality is that everyone has different gifts in different combinations, and as a parent you want to help your child to both discover their own gifts and to appreciate the gifts of others. And you want to do that without imparting a judgment on the relative value of different gifts. Since "smart" is not well defined (does it mean good at math? or clever in solutions? or quickness of retort? depth of vocabulary? Etc.) I have sought to try to tie a gift to the context where it helps have an impact on the world (second concept above) which helps the child understand how they can contribute to an overall project or how others can contribute with their overall project. The generic advice for parents is to 'praise the accomplishment not the child.' which seeks to turn the child's vision of their place in the world outward. However I have seen that be interpreted as "my accomplishments define me" which can be a problem as well. So I gave up with advice, and stick to goals.
  - wrsh07 10y ago
    I interpret this advice as trying to give accurate feedback. Students don't get As on tests because they're naturals. They get As on tests from paying attention in class or from studying or from doing their homework [or for some combination]. So crediting what they did specifically (pay attention, study, etc) to accomplish their goal (get an A on a test) is a way to reward the work that they did [and to tie the success -- the A -- to the work that they did]. Saying "you have such a good vocabulary" is a compliment, but it's not a useful one. Saying "your reading has really helped you develop your vocabulary" might be better?
    - ChuckMcM 10y ago
      Yup. "I appreciate that by continuing to develop your vocabulary you've developed the ability to quickly absorb the concepts you read about or hear discussed."
    - 10y ago
- will_brown 10y ago
  I also like a phrase that I know from sports, "you really showed me something today". It is positive feedback based on performance and not a acknowledgement of inherent and innate abilities. Bronx tale might say it best, "there is nothing sadder in this World than wasted talent". Edit: The article suggests otherwise, that praising ability leads to better outcomes than praising efforts (however, only under the conditions of success).
- rezashirazian 10y ago
  I hope this doesn't lead to praise overall can undermine motivation. The mere support and personal validation a child can derive from doing something would be a great motivation.
- danielvf 10y ago
  I grew up in a line of engineers and problem solvers. As a kid when I'd do something cool and show my parents/relatives, they didn't neither of these approaches - no talking about how smart I was, nor about how much work I'd done. We just talked about how cool whatever the cool thing was. It was great.
Jugurtha 10y ago
If you're interested by this, here's a piece[0] by Carol Dweck. She's an interesting researcher. [0]: http://www.ascd.org/publications/educational-leadership/oct07/vol65/num02/The-Perils-and-Promises-of-Praise.aspx http://www.ascd.org/publications/educational-leadership/oct0...
serg_chernata 10y ago
Is there an implication that children also seem to think that intelligence is not variable while amount of work is?
ak39 10y ago
What's the general impact on a child's motivational levels after being called "stupid" and/or "lazy"?
- danielweber 10y ago
  Let's find out.
- Practicality 10y ago
  Usually they believe it. This is actually pretty well documented in psychology, although I am having some trouble finding a link at the moment.
RMcNeely 10y ago
Suddenly my life makes so much more sense.....
- nibs 10y ago
  Gifted underachievement goes a lot deeper than reinforcement. Eventually, gifted people learn synthesis comes more easily to them and can learn to coast or become anti-social as a result and still get by. Peter Thiel on his thoughts re: Elon Musk: "[He is] very smart, very charismatic, and incredibly driven -- a very rare combination, since most people who have one of these traits learn to coast on the other two." Quote source: https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2g4g95/peter_thiel_technology_entrepreneur_and_investor/ https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2g4g95/peter_thiel_te...
  - HiroshiSan 10y ago
    Was Elon always this way? Or did he end up working on one trait that was lagging behind?
  - splouk 10y ago
    Interesting quote and I think it rings true. Though I think it's not uncommon for someone to posses two of those three qualities, certainly having all three is rare.
  - stevenkovar 10y ago
    Tim Ferriss had a very interesting podcast with Walter O'Brien which touches on teaching those with incredibly high IQ to develop their EQ (Intelligence:Emotional) to bridge this gap—including himself. If you're interested: http://fourhourworkweek.com/2016/02/16/scorpion/ http://fourhourworkweek.com/2016/02/16/scorpion/
- tylermauthe 10y ago
  Agreed! I was just thinking about this the other day, advice I would give to myself when I was younger: Being Smart Isn't Enough.
lifeisstillgood 10y ago
Stop trying to game your kids. Praise them whatever. Love, security, praise, attention, just go for it. I doubt very much that all the noise around raising children can be filtered out to be able to differentiate between sentences. Just raise kids with love and fun.
- toddchambery 10y ago
  "Caplan argues that parents spend too much time trying to influence how their kids will turn out as adults. Using research on twins and adopted children, Caplan argues that nature dominates nurture and that parents have little lasting influence on many aspects of their children's lives. He concludes that parents should spend less time and energy trying to influence their children" [1] [1]: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2011/05/caplan_on_paren.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2011/05/caplan_on_paren.htm...
- AStellersSeaCow 10y ago
  I get what you're saying - kids aren't code to be optimized with objective best practices. But on the other hand, it's very head-in-the-sand to think that parenting with the best intentions and love will always have a positive outcome. It's a good course of action for guaranteeing a happy childhood, but unless you're so affluent that your kids are assured a life on easy street, happiness isn't your only responsibility as a parent. May be that love and fun is all the kids need to be both happy and successful, but maybe not: I had very hippyish parents who didn't go much beyond love and fun and blind support. Myself and my two siblings all had very happy childhoods, but only my very self-motivated sister wound up finding success and happiness as an adult right off the bat, took me a decade to get my footing, and my brother - who was unquestionably the happiest and most loved kid in the family - is a broken and miserable adult. Ultimately it comes down to regarding your kids as individuals and tailoring your parenting to each kid, which is what this study is trying to help parents do w.r.t. smart kids.
- thearn4 10y ago
  First time parent of a 1 year old, and while we're just getting started this is pretty much my perspective already. I can already see how time flies so quickly, too quickly to hyper-analyze and optimally re-assess our every interaction. Just play and talk with them, I don't believe that there is any other secret formula.
soufron 10y ago
So what? If they're smart they dont need to work anyway...
- rpazyaquian 10y ago
  This is the same attitude we held towards college degrees and look where we ended up with that.
  - soufron 10y ago
    Dont know... I am French and College degrees are free and quite cool around there.
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- speeder 10y ago
  I was "the" smart kid in my social circle. People that knew mr as a kid still ask me opinion on random stuff because they remember that. But my adult life (I am 28 now) went nowhere precisely for this reason. As a kid, I could literally skip all classes and homework, then figure the subject "on the spot" during tests, and score high enough to still pass. This doesn't work as adult, but I don't know how to do it right now...
  - duderific 10y ago
    Me too. I cruised through all the way up through high school. When I got to college (UC Berkeley), the first paper I wrote, I got a D minus. Boy was that a wake up call. I had to learn to work a lot harder because the level of competition was so much higher.
  - stevenkovar 10y ago
    A good practice to adopt to help with this: join a gym and work out 2-3 times a week. Learn through the gym how to enjoy the process more than the milestones, and apply the same mechanic to other aspects of life. What's the next 2% improvement you can make to anything in your life?
soufron 10y ago
This is utter bullshit. Let the fucking kid enjoy some self-esteem. Focusing on improving his "motivation" instead of his well-being is manipulative and can backfire in so many ways. Just let him be. Fuck the productivity way of life.
- eloff 10y ago
  Your reaction is like an Ostrich burying its head in the sand. A profane Ostrich. It's unwise to ignore the unintended consequences of your actions, and that's still true even if you wish said consequences didn't exist.
- DanBC 10y ago
  You can let the kid enjoy self-esteem, by praising their hard work.
- ken47 10y ago
  > This is utter bullshit. Let the fucking kid enjoy some self-esteem. You don't think a person can have self-esteem based on their work ethic?
  - metaphorm 10y ago
    false dichotomy. a person can have self-esteem based on EITHER or BOTH of those characteristics.
    - ken47 10y ago
      It's not. His comment continues: "Focusing on improving his "motivation" instead of his well-being..." The use of "instead of," combined with the linked paper's recommendation of praising for effort rather than ability, implies that this dichotomy is anything but false in his mind.
- deleted 10y ago
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- speeder 10y ago
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soufron 10y ago
He is also fucking lucky... Which helps ! Winning the startup lottery does not equal being a life role model. I would not generalize on such people.
- skadamat 10y ago
  Ha you should watch Thiels talk at SXSW on luck, just to get the whole picture / his context.
  - nibs 10y ago
    ^^^ Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZM_JmZdqCw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZM_JmZdqCw
- bpodgursky 10y ago
  “I'm a greater believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it” -- Thomas Jefferson (likely fake, but still good)
- Xcelerate 10y ago
  Once — okay, lucky. Twice — pretty rare but still possible. Three times? It's not luck at that point. (I'm referring to the progression from Zip2 to PayPal to SpaceX and Tesla).
- dang 10y ago
  I agree with your general point, but debating the merits of a specific celebrity's success is slightly in bad taste for this site, and in any case this has drifted far from Dweck's work. One of the hard things about Hacker News is making sure that interesting topics get discussed, instead of getting pulled into a stronger gravitational field. Satellite digressions are often ok, but having every discussion land on the same old popular planets (what, Jupiter again?) is tedious. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12234163 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12234163 and marked it off-topic.
nitrogen 10y ago
Could it not be equally harmful to a smart kid to give them the impression that their intelligence is worthless? It seems there should be a balance where kids retain their motivation while also learning how to make the most of their personal advantages and disadvantages. If a smart kid is always taught the convenient fiction that everyone is exactly the same, then when they interact with an athletic kid who dominates them at sports but struggles academically, what conclusion will the smart kid draw? And finally, is this "praise effort and self esteem" movement responsible for the current wave of anti-free-speech protests on college campuses?
- landryraccoon 10y ago
  > athletic kid who dominates them at sports but struggles academically, what conclusion will the smart kid draw? Your implicit assumption is that your kid will not succeed at something athletically no matter how hard they try. If a kid dreams of going for the NBA or the NFL, why not let them try? What's the benefit of praising a child for their intelligence if intelligence is immutable? Is it a self esteem play or what?
  - nitrogen 10y ago
    Your implicit assumption is that your kid will not succeed at something athletically no matter how hard they try. If a kid dreams of going for the NBA or the NFL, why not let them try? It's a hypothetical example to show that there might be kids who are inherently good at different things, and that focusing on intelligence as the attribute not to praise hasn't played out over the last 18 years the way people seemed to expect in 1998. My point is that intellectual aspirations are just as valid as athletic ones, and that kids should be free to choose their goals and dreams with full awareness of their own advantages and disadvantages. What's the benefit of praising a child for their intelligence if intelligence is immutable? The benefit I am proposing is that truly intelligent children won't be afraid to use their intelligence to get ahead, nor be afraid to admit where they might not be ahead. IMO maximizing individual potential puts society in a better position to maximize societal potential than trying to normalize everyone to be similar.
erdevs 10y ago
Has this study been heavily replicated?
swalsh 10y ago
It's funny how it seems each generation takes a new approach to motivating children. My wife and I try to take a "results are the goal" approach to complimenting my son. When my mother is watching him, she compliments his intelligence. My grandparents seemed to take more of a "helps to be made from good material" kind of approach.
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lossolo 10y ago
I can confirm that. When i was child, every teacher said to me and my parents that i am so gifted, so smart. And i thought i am so smart that i don't need to spend so much time on school like others. So i missed on school a lot. In high school there were classes on which i was less than 50% throughout the semester. And it was ok, i needed only 2 last weeks to pass all the tests. In last year i did the same, again i needed to do tests because i had low grades and needed to pass whole semester on that tests. But this time there was a teacher of my native language (literature etc) and she told me "I know you will pass the test but you was more than 50% of time absent on my lessons i will not let you take test" and i was shocked. Why? Why she didn't let me take the test, i would pass it. And then headmaster of my school told my parents that "lot of kids are coming every day to school, they learn, they do homework for every class, they are hard workers and then there is your son, gifted, smarter than the rest, he only needs 2 last weeks to learn and pass the tests, he is not coming to class, he is not doing homework, how he looks in contrast to other students? What example he is giving to them? That you do not need to work hard, you only need to be gifted and smart and you can go by. There is no justice in this, we can't make that kind of example, showing that you do not need to come to school, make homework and still get promoted to next year like all those kids that come every day to school, are hard workers, learn, do homework". They didn't promoted me to next class, i needed to repeat it. That was the most valuable lesson i had in that school. EDIT: What i wrote about lesson was not meant in a good way. As someone said in comments i was punished for being different - that was the lesson.
- cloudjacker 10y ago
  HOW CAN HE PASS
  - lossolo 10y ago
    I wanted to pass but there was this old guy with cane on the bridge saying "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!"
- oldmanjay 10y ago
  The lesson they taught you is politically palatable to a lot of people, but it strikes me as gross. That it was the most valuable thing you learned in that school underlies just how pointless the entire exercise really was.
moyix 10y ago
There is an interesting and critical look at Dweck's work on "growth mindset" here: http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/08/no-clarity-around-growth-mindset-yet/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/08/no-clarity-around-growt... http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/10/i-will-never-have-the-ability-to-clearly-explain-my-beliefs-about-growth-mindset/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/10/i-will-never-have-the-a... http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/22/growth-mindset-3-a-pox-on-growth-your-houses/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/22/growth-mindset-3-a-pox-... http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/05/07/growth-mindset-4-growth-of-office/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/05/07/growth-mindset-4-growth...
- tn13 10y ago
  Thanks for this. Whenever I see a research that seems intuitive and also politically correct I like to see what the critics have to say.
- extr 10y ago
  nothing to add except that SSC is, bar none, my favorite blog on the internet
Theodores 10y ago
I was not a special snowflake and I was not praised for anything ever by my parents. My exam results were below average and every school report was along the lines of must try harder. Recently I did think about this and whether I developed a co-dependent aspect to my personality along the way. Co-dependency does hold people back in life and I feel that a little bit of praise along the way would not have gone amiss. I worked from age 14 doing paper rounds, gardening jobs, babysitting and I also had a Saturday job in a bicycle shop. All of these opportunities I made for myself, there was no nepotism or anything like that. I never got into trouble or had must-try-harder in these environments. My customers/clients/bosses were not easy to please, but I did please them and the feedback I received was genuine praise and thanks. I had much more disposable income than any of my teachers, I also worked as many hours a week than them. (I know they mark homework and do other stuff after the bell goes). I did have some development issues from doing 40-60 hours of on-your feet hard work week in week out with no holidays ever (plus school, with the equivalent of at least a 10K jog every day) so painful ankles was normal to me. From this experience I gained quite a few mentors, and, in the world of business, if you have customers to serve, and if time is money, then failures (e.g. breaking something) could be dealt with more sensibly - no inquisition/detention, just don`t do it again and everyone is happy. Meanwhile... Amongst my clique of school friends, nobody else got the work thing. They had pocket money and school dinner money instead of their own earnings. They also had parents that helped them along to posh universities (or art schools) and quiet, warm places to study. If they wanted a bicycle then one would appear for them if they behaved. To them money was something you held onto, it wasn`t something you just walked out the door to get. They had a limited reservoir of money not a flowing river of the stuff. They would also have exciting activities in the after school hours - swimming, piano lessons, you know the drill - none of these things they personally had to pay for, the parents did. Consequently they could be assertive to get what they wanted - they developed a sense of entitlement for things whereas I went the other way - servitude to others!!! That was how I got my praise, building customer/client/employer relationships and school. I always felt that any praise that did come from school was lip-service and utterly worthless. On the flipside I knew that I could always get work and didn`t have to be beholden to any employer. I still see this aspect today as a programmer. If I have a bad day I could just pick up the phone and be somewhere else next Monday, no references or interview needed. My regular office colleagues don`t have this, moving up the hierarchy by doing as they are told is how it works. I don`t see small children with 25Kgs of newspapers on their backs at the crack of dawn or small children pushing heavy lawnmowers or serving people in shops. The world has moved on from that possibility. However I do see people who want to win the lottery, be a pop star or a footballer. I also see a lot of young people getting validation through Facebook likes from their peers. None of these things are real... It is only in the area of software development that kids can actually do something to get praise denied by parents and teachers. So, if you are 14 and reading this, that is my advice - write code, get happy customers and get some real world praise.
tn13 10y ago
How about "that is great but can you do this?" and give him an harder task.
admax88q 10y ago
Oh hey its time for this thread again.
Practicality 10y ago
I tell my child she is smart AND that that isn't enough for us. We know she is smart, but so are we and we can tell when she is slacking and lying. It's actually working very well, but it took quite a while for her to believe us. In the long run she is showing a deep appreciation for how honest we are with her. This would likely work with most smarter children. If you don't play mind games with them they will stop trying to play mind games on you. -- Edit on my side note here -- She still plays games with most other adults but I would be a hypocrite to try to eliminate it completely. Mostly I just caution her on how it erodes trust and trust is very valuable. Besides, most adults are not completely honest with her so it's only fair.
- hinkley 10y ago
  The developmental advice I've heard is that you should praise the act, not the attribute. That is, if they do something clever, you praise the clever thing they did, not the fact that they're clever. I know that probably sounds like splitting hairs, but kids and adults have at least as many issues communicating as adults and other adults have.
  - HNSucksAss 10y ago
    On the other hand, I've heard that if a child does something wrong, you criticize the act and try to make it incompatible with the child's self-image. As in, "I don't know why you would punch anyone, because you're such a nice boy!"
  - colanderman 10y ago
    It's not splitting hairs at all. "That's so clever" means "do something like that again to get praise". "You're so clever" means "you don't need to do any more work to be praised".
    - hinkley 10y ago
      As adults we can often be imprecise in our praise of others and expect them to just understand that we meant it as a complement. If you tell an adult 'wow you really are clever' it usually means that you appreciate what they did for you or the team and you're trying to say thank you too.
GarrisonPrime 10y ago
I clearly remember getting hugely uncomfortable whenever as a child my intellect was praised by an adult. Made me want to completely stop doing anything, lest it draw more of their biased, narrow-minded judgements of me.
whoops1122 10y ago
in China, we tell our kids that he/she is crap and he/she better work hard now. or the crappy kid next door is going to crap on him/her.
- duaneb 10y ago
  Seems like that would be psychologically damaging. It's certainly how helicoptor parents are seen in the US.
AStellersSeaCow 10y ago
As an aside, I think this sort of upbringing is a significant contributing factor to the personality type that shows up frequently in the most toxic online groups (MRAs, gamergaters, PUAs, etc). In my glimpses, it's been abundantly clear that many of them are highly intelligent and not much else: single, with shitty jobs, no exceptional skills, and dim prospects for the future. But because they grew up being told they were going to be rich and happy because they were so smart, it's clearly the rest of the world's fault that they didn't end up with the life they feel entitled to.
- fragola 10y ago
  My parents unfortunately did this to my brother. Especially my mom: "oh you're SO handsome/smart/awesome, all the girls will love you, you should go to the best colleges" etc. He is an extremely unpleasant person now, and definitely not popular with women. It is not entirely parents' fault. I mean, a ton of men have had the same type of conditioning, but then go on to have a series of uncomfortable epiphanies in high school and college that lead to self-improvement and later happiness. But it for sure is setting your kid up for misery, whether temporary or permanent.
mkane848 10y ago
See, my parents did this thing where they'd tell me how smart I am all the time, then whenever there would be an argument or a disagreement "Oh, you're just SO smart and we're all SO stupid". I'm already one of those people with a generally dry/sarcastic sense of humor (think Ruxin from The League, "I can't even tell when you're joking" kinda thing), so I have a hard time telling when I'm actually being an asshole or condescending or not, because while I seriously try to watch myself I still occasionally get the feeling that I came off the wrong way or, well, condescendingly. "You just think you're sooooo smart..."
visarga 10y ago
Praise intelligence -> makes them give up easier. Praise hard work -> could be a subtle attempt at manipulation. Maybe instead we should ask them what they want to do, and support their creative activities.
- sverige 10y ago
  They are children. The are a big mess of potential without experience. They need guidance from people with experience because they don't know much, even if they have a lot of native intelligence. It's kind of like pruning plants. Some things you encourage, some things you cut off without hesitation. Sounds cold to some, I understand, but once you've raised a few, you'll know what you did right and what you did wrong. That's still better than letting them decide everything.
- erikb 10y ago
  I don't like this. As a 5 year old you can't even know what you want in 10 minutes.
- GrinningFool 10y ago
  What a child wants to do is what a child wants to do right now. If you ask the same question a few minutes later, you could get an entirely different answer. As adults who have lived through being children, a surprising percentage of us actually do know better than a small child what's best for the small child for a surprising percentage of their lives.
  - visarga 10y ago
    I read once about a highschool boy, a good student, who was shocked when a teacher asked him "What do YOU want to do?". What? he thought. This question has never crossed my mind. Nobody told me I can make my own mind. It was always "teacher knows best" and "parent knows best" and "be a good student and learn what we teach you, do what we tell you". I wrote from this point of view, but I agree that parents and teachers know better most of the time, I just don't know if it is good to try so hard to make sure the child doesn't make any "wrong" choices.
edtechdev 10y ago
It's called "growth mindset" (vs. fixed mindset). There are books and hundreds of articles on it. I've found this TED talk the best explanation of growth vs. fixed mindset: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN34FNbOKXc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN34FNbOKXc
Spooky23 10y ago
Do what makes sense for your kid and you. Everything else is mostly nonsense.
Fordrus 10y ago
Putting a little TL;DR up here on top, because I'd really like to see folks' answers to this: What's the simple-language equivalent of, "You're so smart," or "That was so smart," but for intellectual effort? Now, regularly scheduled thoughts :) : What is a good, short method/word for praising effort? with my 8.5-month old, "Good Job," specific variants on it ("Good Job climbing that staircase, tiny!") and such have worked wonderfully, but I seek something more- It's so easy to praise a child's intelligence - "You're so smart!" "That's so clever!" - but much harder to praise effort, in my experience so far, because "I can tell you worked so hard to do that, that's so great!" just doesn't roll off the tongue very well! And this is important- "Good job!" is at the nexus of how I praise my little boy partially because he totally understand it. He's got that, even if he may not know the individual words exactly, he absolutely knows what Daddy means when, "Good job, baby!" comes out of daddy's mouth. I have VERY LOW FAITH that I could get, "I can tell you worked so hard to do that, that's so great!" to work the same! (Incidentally, I also now feel I know more about why, in America at least, we often say, "I'm doing good," and variants thereof, instead of "I'm doing well." "Well" just isn't in the primal vocabulary quite as deeply, maybe because of its association with "Well, I was going to, but then I didn't," type of statements. "Good" is simple and meaningful, and I often find myself telling my son he's done something so "good," and then correcting myself a little, because, well, I want to teach him correct grammar, but more than that, I want to communicate with him meaningfully - and "good" gets a meaning across with which he's already familiar, while "well" does not, and has other common uses.) So what's the simple-language equivalent of, "You're so smart," or "That was so smart," but for intellectual effort? Maybe I need to invent a word for this and see if it catches on! :D
- rhizome 10y ago
  Talk about it. "That's great! Was it hard?"
  - Fordrus 10y ago
    This is great advice, but I'm not sure it hits the mark I'm trying to hit - I do already talk to my little guy about what things were hard vs. easy, and how much I admire his efforts, but there's a flow to interactions, especially with a small child - I'm looking for something I can use for a shorthand of this kind of conversation, because he totally loses interest if I just sit there and jabber for too long. If I want to impart any actual meaning, I have to be concise (though teaching him to pay attention longer is certainly also on the agenda- but again, can't try to do everything, every time, often there's just a brief moment, and I want to offer praise, it seems right logically to offer praise, it even FEELS right, but- am I then bound to have a whole conversation at that moment, or is there shorthand for the times when for his reasons or my own, I absolutely cannot?
qwertyuiop924 10y ago
People say I'm smart. I don't buy it. I know a lot of things, sure, but anyone can do that. And I'm lazy, so I tend to be a bit slack about everything, but I like to think I can get things done when it counts. After all, when I apply for college, I'll be competing with all kinds of smart kids. And dammit, I happen to like learning things, and as much as I am lazy, my personal desire to learn things kinda outweighs that. Which may be why I've spent so much time when I've been ostensibly slacking off trying to understand monads, reading HN, and, every few months or so, once again trying to bash my way through SICP...
decisiveness 10y ago
One problem is that the children's IQs weren't considered in relation to the task at hand. A more useful study would have included how praise for ability and effort effect children in separate classes of intelligence. To be remotely helpful, at the very least, we should know the range and mean IQ of the children in the study.
cel1ne 10y ago
Of course it can. What does an intelligent kid do? Find the easiest way to do a task or question whether the task is necessary at all. That's just humans conserving energy. Which is smart. This is not the hard part for them, they excel at this. Effort is consciously fighting against the drive to stop working. THIS is the hard part. Above average children never have to learn this, because they get through school and life that easy. It's only when they are forced to leave their comfort zone, when problems show up. Intelligent Children who aren't kept or lead out of this effort-avoidance (which is a kind of motivation as well: the motivation to avoid effort in order to conserve energy) also tend to get worse grades after they got good ones. Because praising them signals them that they actually overachieved and can therefore put even less energy into accomplishing a task. So the way to go is praising them for doing something that they didn't want to do or for repeating effort.
im4w1l 10y ago
If you exaggerate the importance of practice, people will do more of it, and become better. But what is the opportunity cost?
thanatropism 10y ago
I have a pretty good boss. Of course, we're all adults. Anyway, our boss has this way of treating everyone differently -- knowing which buttons to push. With me he'll always give me the occasional harder task saying "This is going to be easy for you"; with my coworker, he has to press harder and say "this is important, don't screw it up". I was recently depressed and without really having been told anything he gave me this hollywood-movie pep talk along the lines of "it's important that you know that you have great talents so don't sweat the small stuff and tell me if you're in trouble". Maybe this is pretty much off-topic, but the point I wanted to make is that people react to different things and much of the art of squeezing motivation and productivity out of them has to do with understanding this.
pwthornton 10y ago
My daughter is only two, but she is clearly smart. Some people tell her how smart she is, but I largely do not. What I try to do instead is to encourage her to keep trying and keep pushing and that failure is temporary. When she was one and learning to climb up and down stairs (which she loves to do over and over again), I would keep telling her "you can do it" as she went down each step and tried to gauge whether or not she could go further. When she was finished I would tell her, "you did it," and she started saying "I did it" when she completed a flight. She also stumbles and falls a lot as we climb different things and walk over different surfaces. I tell her "keep going" or "you've got this" and she gets right back up and keeps trying. I find that if you focus on saying that she'll be alright or making sure she is not hurt (when she is clearly not), she'll dwell on that, start crying and stop doing what she is doing. This story and the other links published here got me thinking about this. Innate ability is clearly important when you really think about it, but what I want to instill is this idea that it's normal and natural to fail along the way to success and that even if you are really talented at something, you'll have setbacks.
pwthornton 10y ago
Part of the problem with telling your kid that they are smart is that most parents think their kids are smart. The average IQ is about 100. It's one thing to tell an objectively intelligent person that they are intelligent, but it's quite another to get someone who doesn't have great innate gifts thinking that they do and then perhaps causing them not to work harder. You can outwork someone and make up for an intellectual or physical disadvantage, but you may be less inclined to do so if people tell you that you have greatly innate gifts than you do. Let's also keep in mind that a lot of very intelligent people are able to focus and think more abstractly, allowing them to be very efficient workers. I just see a lot of parents telling their kids how smart they are, thinking it will build up their self esteem, but I wonder if this is counterproductive if they are actually of more average intelligence.

253 points by EvgeniyZh 10y ago

TL;DR: If you're interacting with a kid, try to avoid saying, "you're so smart!" and instead say, "You've picked this up really quickly" or "you're such a hard worker". If you tell a child they are smart then they will stop trying either because they assume they can get by on their intelligence or because they are afraid of failing and loosing your praise about how smart they are.

dllthomas 10y ago
"You worked really hard on it that!" seems a bad thing to say without having observed the kid working hard. I know if I'd been told I worked hard on something that came easily, it would have cost the speaker credibility. My tentative plan, for my son, is to phrase it as a question. "Did you work hard on this?". If so, praise the hard work. If not, "let's find you something more challenging".
- jedberg 10y ago
  You're absolutely right. Thank you for your suggestion, I think I'll change my own phrasing if I didn't witness the hard work.
- timthorn 10y ago
  In addition, the work being praised needs to be effective.
  - taylorwc 10y ago
    I disagree. If your child does something to the absolute best of his/her abilities, but is not very effective, isn't that still praiseworthy? I have a two year old who exhibits no mastery of the English language, but I praise her when she tries out a new word on for size and keeps attempting to perfect it.
    - hashkb 10y ago
      You're praising effective practicing habits. You can praise learning from mistakes. That's great. I always took "A for effort" to be extremely patronizing because I was trying to do the thing right.
      - gohrt 10y ago
        The problem is the "A", not the "A for effort". "A for results" just highlights an arbitrary bar that is likely too low or too high.
    - IanCal 10y ago
      I guess a modification on that accounting for the expected performance would make sense.
    - timthorn 10y ago
      It might be praiseworthy, but I was talking from the perspective of using praise to improve attainment. Dweck has written about the misapplication of her theories in recent years: http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2015/09/23/carol-dweck-revisits-the-growth-mindset.html http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2015/09/23/carol-dweck-rev...
  - dllthomas 10y ago
    I think it's probably more important that it's aimed at being effective than that it is genuinely being effective.
- MattGrommes 10y ago
  One problem with this type of idea is that kids think in very different ways than you. This question could lead to your son thinking you don't trust that he's working since you're constantly questioning him. I've found I can usually tell when my kids have actually worked hard on something or slacked off so if they're slacking I find other ways of talking about it. I'm not saying this is a bad idea for sure but I've run in so many cases with my kids where my "clever" way of communicating with them came back and bit me in ways I never would have considered. And since they can't necessarily communicate things well it could fester or direct his thinking in directions you won't know about for a long time. Parenting is hard. :)
  - dllthomas 10y ago
    > I've found I can usually tell when my kids have actually worked hard on something or slacked off so if they're slacking I find other ways of talking about it. The distinction I was drawing wasn't between having worked and having slacked, but having had to work and having a task easy enough work wasn't needed. More generally, I do take your point - no plan survives contact with the enemy :p
- rgoddard 10y ago
  One issue which is neglected when this topic comes up is confusing the method of teaching vs what you are trying to teach. What you are trying to teach is the value of working hard and not only relying on being smart. The mechanism that is being used to teach this is praise. But praise is an external motivation. We know that people work best when they have an intrinsic motivation. That is not to say that external rewards cannot be used. But they should be used with other forms of reinforcement. With our daughter when working with her we focus on encouraging her to keep on trying when encountering some difficulty. And also having her focus on the sense of satisfaction from having completed a difficult task. Personally I know I feel a greater sense of satisfaction after having actually worked for something compared to being able to do something based more on intelligence.
- gohrt 10y ago
  Sure, lying is unhelpful. The point is to praise the positive qualities that are under the recipient's control, such has effort, persistence, decisions. Generally, praise them for what they DO, not who they ARE.
  - dllthomas 10y ago
    I wouldn't characterize it as lying, so much as making an assumption.
- wrsh07 10y ago
  Just try to give credit for the things they did, not for what they are. Eg if they paid attention in class, or if they took good notes, or if they did the homework, or if they studied -- credit that. Hopefully as a parent you'll have some idea of how they're spending their time. But I absolutely agree that saying something false is not going to do them any favors [although they might learn that you have no idea how they spend their time].
- thomasahle 10y ago
  Also, obviously perhaps, just try to follow your sons/daughters progress, so you can praise/comment on what was actually hard for them.
mathattack 10y ago
Yes. This is also why I nudge my kids to try things that require work no matter the ability (say chess, where there are always better players) versus things graded against a narrow peer group (Say math, where once you're "at level" the teacher pays less attention.)
dominotw 10y ago
But doesn't every praise, every comparison create a narrative for the child. A narrative that the brain learns to lean on and uses to form self-identity ( hard-worker, good boy ect). for example, Now the child has learned associate praise( and love) with being a hard worker. This is now his framework for his life, a prison he can never escape. I think this a form of child abuse, to destroy child's spirit with praises, comparisons etc. Yet society sees this a something positive. Why can't children learn for their own enjoyment, kids already have great deal of intrinsic motivation why do we need to praise him.
- nostrebored 10y ago
  Why is working hard a bad thing? In what world is working hard ever a bad thing? You're conflating "working hard" with drudgery, or working hard at a job. Praising children for working hard is praising them for their drive. I hope to raise a driven child. Drive is the enabler for acting out your internal desires. I'd congratulate my kid for working hard on solving a puzzle or getting better at playing a game. I do think that stressing taking care of your mental health is very important. Sometimes downtime is needed.
- Practicality 10y ago
  So, you can't give your child guidance on good behavior? Anarchy parenting?
- pasquinelli 10y ago
  there's no escaping setting a narrative. refraining to praise or compare also sets a narrative. so given that, how can you expect a parent not to at least try to build a good one for their child? "This is now his framework for his life, a prison he can never escape." pfft. one's "framework for life" isn't any more durable than anything else.
- sliverstorm 10y ago
  Why can't children learn for their own enjoyment Have you never met someone whose spirit was broken as a kid, as they struggled to earn praise, but their successes or even struggles were never acknowledged? It's practically a character archetype. Kids hunger for approval from their parents, the same way you hunger for approval from your heroes.
danielweber 10y ago
I was aware of this research for my first kid. Telling them how hard they worked just gave them an excuse to quit later. "This is too difficult! You said so!" Kids are hard.
- gohrt 10y ago
  Kids are good at making excuses regardless. Logic only slows them down a little bit. "Yes, it's difficult. The important things are difficult. It's not too difficult for you to do. You can do better each time you try again."
cloudjacker 10y ago
and does that conclusion create a different and objectively better response? kids know what synonyms are.
jdimov10 10y ago
Real TL;DR: This is a big load of BS from people who know nothing about children OR life. I'm going to keep expressing my awe at how clever my kids are every chance I get. You tell yours to work hard all you want.
ChuckMcM 10y ago
Having raised three kids I have learned that 99% of all parenting advice does not apply to any specific child and any specific parent. That said, parenting goals are consistent; Helping kids to understand the world around them, understand their effect on the world, and recognizing what it will take to achieve a particular goal. Telling kids they are "smart" is part of the "understanding the world around them" goal. The reality is that everyone has different gifts in different combinations, and as a parent you want to help your child to both discover their own gifts and to appreciate the gifts of others. And you want to do that without imparting a judgment on the relative value of different gifts. Since "smart" is not well defined (does it mean good at math? or clever in solutions? or quickness of retort? depth of vocabulary? Etc.) I have sought to try to tie a gift to the context where it helps have an impact on the world (second concept above) which helps the child understand how they can contribute to an overall project or how others can contribute with their overall project. The generic advice for parents is to 'praise the accomplishment not the child.' which seeks to turn the child's vision of their place in the world outward. However I have seen that be interpreted as "my accomplishments define me" which can be a problem as well. So I gave up with advice, and stick to goals.
- wrsh07 10y ago
  I interpret this advice as trying to give accurate feedback. Students don't get As on tests because they're naturals. They get As on tests from paying attention in class or from studying or from doing their homework [or for some combination]. So crediting what they did specifically (pay attention, study, etc) to accomplish their goal (get an A on a test) is a way to reward the work that they did [and to tie the success -- the A -- to the work that they did]. Saying "you have such a good vocabulary" is a compliment, but it's not a useful one. Saying "your reading has really helped you develop your vocabulary" might be better?
  - ChuckMcM 10y ago
    Yup. "I appreciate that by continuing to develop your vocabulary you've developed the ability to quickly absorb the concepts you read about or hear discussed."
  - 10y ago
will_brown 10y ago
I also like a phrase that I know from sports, "you really showed me something today". It is positive feedback based on performance and not a acknowledgement of inherent and innate abilities. Bronx tale might say it best, "there is nothing sadder in this World than wasted talent". Edit: The article suggests otherwise, that praising ability leads to better outcomes than praising efforts (however, only under the conditions of success).
rezashirazian 10y ago
I hope this doesn't lead to praise overall can undermine motivation. The mere support and personal validation a child can derive from doing something would be a great motivation.
danielvf 10y ago
I grew up in a line of engineers and problem solvers. As a kid when I'd do something cool and show my parents/relatives, they didn't neither of these approaches - no talking about how smart I was, nor about how much work I'd done. We just talked about how cool whatever the cool thing was. It was great.

Jugurtha 10y ago

If you're interested by this, here's a piece[0] by Carol Dweck. She's an interesting researcher. [0]: http://www.ascd.org/publications/educational-leadership/oct07/vol65/num02/The-Perils-and-Promises-of-Praise.aspx http://www.ascd.org/publications/educational-leadership/oct0...

serg_chernata 10y ago

Is there an implication that children also seem to think that intelligence is not variable while amount of work is?

ak39 10y ago

What's the general impact on a child's motivational levels after being called "stupid" and/or "lazy"?

danielweber 10y ago
Let's find out.
Practicality 10y ago
Usually they believe it. This is actually pretty well documented in psychology, although I am having some trouble finding a link at the moment.

RMcNeely 10y ago

Suddenly my life makes so much more sense.....

nibs 10y ago
Gifted underachievement goes a lot deeper than reinforcement. Eventually, gifted people learn synthesis comes more easily to them and can learn to coast or become anti-social as a result and still get by. Peter Thiel on his thoughts re: Elon Musk: "[He is] very smart, very charismatic, and incredibly driven -- a very rare combination, since most people who have one of these traits learn to coast on the other two." Quote source: https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2g4g95/peter_thiel_technology_entrepreneur_and_investor/ https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2g4g95/peter_thiel_te...
- HiroshiSan 10y ago
  Was Elon always this way? Or did he end up working on one trait that was lagging behind?
- splouk 10y ago
  Interesting quote and I think it rings true. Though I think it's not uncommon for someone to posses two of those three qualities, certainly having all three is rare.
- stevenkovar 10y ago
  Tim Ferriss had a very interesting podcast with Walter O'Brien which touches on teaching those with incredibly high IQ to develop their EQ (Intelligence:Emotional) to bridge this gap—including himself. If you're interested: http://fourhourworkweek.com/2016/02/16/scorpion/ http://fourhourworkweek.com/2016/02/16/scorpion/
tylermauthe 10y ago
Agreed! I was just thinking about this the other day, advice I would give to myself when I was younger: Being Smart Isn't Enough.

lifeisstillgood 10y ago

Stop trying to game your kids. Praise them whatever. Love, security, praise, attention, just go for it. I doubt very much that all the noise around raising children can be filtered out to be able to differentiate between sentences. Just raise kids with love and fun.

toddchambery 10y ago
"Caplan argues that parents spend too much time trying to influence how their kids will turn out as adults. Using research on twins and adopted children, Caplan argues that nature dominates nurture and that parents have little lasting influence on many aspects of their children's lives. He concludes that parents should spend less time and energy trying to influence their children" [1] [1]: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2011/05/caplan_on_paren.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2011/05/caplan_on_paren.htm...
AStellersSeaCow 10y ago
I get what you're saying - kids aren't code to be optimized with objective best practices. But on the other hand, it's very head-in-the-sand to think that parenting with the best intentions and love will always have a positive outcome. It's a good course of action for guaranteeing a happy childhood, but unless you're so affluent that your kids are assured a life on easy street, happiness isn't your only responsibility as a parent. May be that love and fun is all the kids need to be both happy and successful, but maybe not: I had very hippyish parents who didn't go much beyond love and fun and blind support. Myself and my two siblings all had very happy childhoods, but only my very self-motivated sister wound up finding success and happiness as an adult right off the bat, took me a decade to get my footing, and my brother - who was unquestionably the happiest and most loved kid in the family - is a broken and miserable adult. Ultimately it comes down to regarding your kids as individuals and tailoring your parenting to each kid, which is what this study is trying to help parents do w.r.t. smart kids.
thearn4 10y ago
First time parent of a 1 year old, and while we're just getting started this is pretty much my perspective already. I can already see how time flies so quickly, too quickly to hyper-analyze and optimally re-assess our every interaction. Just play and talk with them, I don't believe that there is any other secret formula.

soufron 10y ago

So what? If they're smart they dont need to work anyway...

rpazyaquian 10y ago
This is the same attitude we held towards college degrees and look where we ended up with that.
- soufron 10y ago
  Dont know... I am French and College degrees are free and quite cool around there.
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speeder 10y ago
I was "the" smart kid in my social circle. People that knew mr as a kid still ask me opinion on random stuff because they remember that. But my adult life (I am 28 now) went nowhere precisely for this reason. As a kid, I could literally skip all classes and homework, then figure the subject "on the spot" during tests, and score high enough to still pass. This doesn't work as adult, but I don't know how to do it right now...
- duderific 10y ago
  Me too. I cruised through all the way up through high school. When I got to college (UC Berkeley), the first paper I wrote, I got a D minus. Boy was that a wake up call. I had to learn to work a lot harder because the level of competition was so much higher.
- stevenkovar 10y ago
  A good practice to adopt to help with this: join a gym and work out 2-3 times a week. Learn through the gym how to enjoy the process more than the milestones, and apply the same mechanic to other aspects of life. What's the next 2% improvement you can make to anything in your life?

soufron 10y ago

This is utter bullshit. Let the fucking kid enjoy some self-esteem. Focusing on improving his "motivation" instead of his well-being is manipulative and can backfire in so many ways. Just let him be. Fuck the productivity way of life.

eloff 10y ago
Your reaction is like an Ostrich burying its head in the sand. A profane Ostrich. It's unwise to ignore the unintended consequences of your actions, and that's still true even if you wish said consequences didn't exist.
DanBC 10y ago
You can let the kid enjoy self-esteem, by praising their hard work.
ken47 10y ago
> This is utter bullshit. Let the fucking kid enjoy some self-esteem. You don't think a person can have self-esteem based on their work ethic?
- metaphorm 10y ago
  false dichotomy. a person can have self-esteem based on EITHER or BOTH of those characteristics.
  - ken47 10y ago
    It's not. His comment continues: "Focusing on improving his "motivation" instead of his well-being..." The use of "instead of," combined with the linked paper's recommendation of praising for effort rather than ability, implies that this dichotomy is anything but false in his mind.
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soufron 10y ago

He is also fucking lucky... Which helps ! Winning the startup lottery does not equal being a life role model. I would not generalize on such people.

skadamat 10y ago
Ha you should watch Thiels talk at SXSW on luck, just to get the whole picture / his context.
- nibs 10y ago
  ^^^ Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZM_JmZdqCw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZM_JmZdqCw
bpodgursky 10y ago
“I'm a greater believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it” -- Thomas Jefferson (likely fake, but still good)
Xcelerate 10y ago
Once — okay, lucky. Twice — pretty rare but still possible. Three times? It's not luck at that point. (I'm referring to the progression from Zip2 to PayPal to SpaceX and Tesla).
dang 10y ago
I agree with your general point, but debating the merits of a specific celebrity's success is slightly in bad taste for this site, and in any case this has drifted far from Dweck's work. One of the hard things about Hacker News is making sure that interesting topics get discussed, instead of getting pulled into a stronger gravitational field. Satellite digressions are often ok, but having every discussion land on the same old popular planets (what, Jupiter again?) is tedious. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12234163 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12234163 and marked it off-topic.

nitrogen 10y ago

Could it not be equally harmful to a smart kid to give them the impression that their intelligence is worthless? It seems there should be a balance where kids retain their motivation while also learning how to make the most of their personal advantages and disadvantages. If a smart kid is always taught the convenient fiction that everyone is exactly the same, then when they interact with an athletic kid who dominates them at sports but struggles academically, what conclusion will the smart kid draw? And finally, is this "praise effort and self esteem" movement responsible for the current wave of anti-free-speech protests on college campuses?

landryraccoon 10y ago
> athletic kid who dominates them at sports but struggles academically, what conclusion will the smart kid draw? Your implicit assumption is that your kid will not succeed at something athletically no matter how hard they try. If a kid dreams of going for the NBA or the NFL, why not let them try? What's the benefit of praising a child for their intelligence if intelligence is immutable? Is it a self esteem play or what?
- nitrogen 10y ago
  Your implicit assumption is that your kid will not succeed at something athletically no matter how hard they try. If a kid dreams of going for the NBA or the NFL, why not let them try? It's a hypothetical example to show that there might be kids who are inherently good at different things, and that focusing on intelligence as the attribute not to praise hasn't played out over the last 18 years the way people seemed to expect in 1998. My point is that intellectual aspirations are just as valid as athletic ones, and that kids should be free to choose their goals and dreams with full awareness of their own advantages and disadvantages. What's the benefit of praising a child for their intelligence if intelligence is immutable? The benefit I am proposing is that truly intelligent children won't be afraid to use their intelligence to get ahead, nor be afraid to admit where they might not be ahead. IMO maximizing individual potential puts society in a better position to maximize societal potential than trying to normalize everyone to be similar.

erdevs 10y ago

Has this study been heavily replicated?

swalsh 10y ago

It's funny how it seems each generation takes a new approach to motivating children. My wife and I try to take a "results are the goal" approach to complimenting my son. When my mother is watching him, she compliments his intelligence. My grandparents seemed to take more of a "helps to be made from good material" kind of approach.

deleted 10y ago

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lossolo 10y ago

I can confirm that. When i was child, every teacher said to me and my parents that i am so gifted, so smart. And i thought i am so smart that i don't need to spend so much time on school like others. So i missed on school a lot. In high school there were classes on which i was less than 50% throughout the semester. And it was ok, i needed only 2 last weeks to pass all the tests. In last year i did the same, again i needed to do tests because i had low grades and needed to pass whole semester on that tests. But this time there was a teacher of my native language (literature etc) and she told me "I know you will pass the test but you was more than 50% of time absent on my lessons i will not let you take test" and i was shocked. Why? Why she didn't let me take the test, i would pass it. And then headmaster of my school told my parents that "lot of kids are coming every day to school, they learn, they do homework for every class, they are hard workers and then there is your son, gifted, smarter than the rest, he only needs 2 last weeks to learn and pass the tests, he is not coming to class, he is not doing homework, how he looks in contrast to other students? What example he is giving to them? That you do not need to work hard, you only need to be gifted and smart and you can go by. There is no justice in this, we can't make that kind of example, showing that you do not need to come to school, make homework and still get promoted to next year like all those kids that come every day to school, are hard workers, learn, do homework". They didn't promoted me to next class, i needed to repeat it. That was the most valuable lesson i had in that school. EDIT: What i wrote about lesson was not meant in a good way. As someone said in comments i was punished for being different - that was the lesson.

cloudjacker 10y ago
HOW CAN HE PASS
- lossolo 10y ago
  I wanted to pass but there was this old guy with cane on the bridge saying "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!"
oldmanjay 10y ago
The lesson they taught you is politically palatable to a lot of people, but it strikes me as gross. That it was the most valuable thing you learned in that school underlies just how pointless the entire exercise really was.

moyix 10y ago

There is an interesting and critical look at Dweck's work on "growth mindset" here: http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/08/no-clarity-around-growth-mindset-yet/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/08/no-clarity-around-growt... http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/10/i-will-never-have-the-ability-to-clearly-explain-my-beliefs-about-growth-mindset/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/10/i-will-never-have-the-a... http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/22/growth-mindset-3-a-pox-on-growth-your-houses/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/22/growth-mindset-3-a-pox-... http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/05/07/growth-mindset-4-growth-of-office/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/05/07/growth-mindset-4-growth...

tn13 10y ago
Thanks for this. Whenever I see a research that seems intuitive and also politically correct I like to see what the critics have to say.
extr 10y ago
nothing to add except that SSC is, bar none, my favorite blog on the internet

Theodores 10y ago

I was not a special snowflake and I was not praised for anything ever by my parents. My exam results were below average and every school report was along the lines of must try harder. Recently I did think about this and whether I developed a co-dependent aspect to my personality along the way. Co-dependency does hold people back in life and I feel that a little bit of praise along the way would not have gone amiss. I worked from age 14 doing paper rounds, gardening jobs, babysitting and I also had a Saturday job in a bicycle shop. All of these opportunities I made for myself, there was no nepotism or anything like that. I never got into trouble or had must-try-harder in these environments. My customers/clients/bosses were not easy to please, but I did please them and the feedback I received was genuine praise and thanks. I had much more disposable income than any of my teachers, I also worked as many hours a week than them. (I know they mark homework and do other stuff after the bell goes). I did have some development issues from doing 40-60 hours of on-your feet hard work week in week out with no holidays ever (plus school, with the equivalent of at least a 10K jog every day) so painful ankles was normal to me. From this experience I gained quite a few mentors, and, in the world of business, if you have customers to serve, and if time is money, then failures (e.g. breaking something) could be dealt with more sensibly - no inquisition/detention, just don`t do it again and everyone is happy. Meanwhile... Amongst my clique of school friends, nobody else got the work thing. They had pocket money and school dinner money instead of their own earnings. They also had parents that helped them along to posh universities (or art schools) and quiet, warm places to study. If they wanted a bicycle then one would appear for them if they behaved. To them money was something you held onto, it wasn`t something you just walked out the door to get. They had a limited reservoir of money not a flowing river of the stuff. They would also have exciting activities in the after school hours - swimming, piano lessons, you know the drill - none of these things they personally had to pay for, the parents did. Consequently they could be assertive to get what they wanted - they developed a sense of entitlement for things whereas I went the other way - servitude to others!!! That was how I got my praise, building customer/client/employer relationships and school. I always felt that any praise that did come from school was lip-service and utterly worthless. On the flipside I knew that I could always get work and didn`t have to be beholden to any employer. I still see this aspect today as a programmer. If I have a bad day I could just pick up the phone and be somewhere else next Monday, no references or interview needed. My regular office colleagues don`t have this, moving up the hierarchy by doing as they are told is how it works. I don`t see small children with 25Kgs of newspapers on their backs at the crack of dawn or small children pushing heavy lawnmowers or serving people in shops. The world has moved on from that possibility. However I do see people who want to win the lottery, be a pop star or a footballer. I also see a lot of young people getting validation through Facebook likes from their peers. None of these things are real... It is only in the area of software development that kids can actually do something to get praise denied by parents and teachers. So, if you are 14 and reading this, that is my advice - write code, get happy customers and get some real world praise.

tn13 10y ago

How about "that is great but can you do this?" and give him an harder task.

admax88q 10y ago

Oh hey its time for this thread again.

Practicality 10y ago

I tell my child she is smart AND that that isn't enough for us. We know she is smart, but so are we and we can tell when she is slacking and lying. It's actually working very well, but it took quite a while for her to believe us. In the long run she is showing a deep appreciation for how honest we are with her. This would likely work with most smarter children. If you don't play mind games with them they will stop trying to play mind games on you. -- Edit on my side note here -- She still plays games with most other adults but I would be a hypocrite to try to eliminate it completely. Mostly I just caution her on how it erodes trust and trust is very valuable. Besides, most adults are not completely honest with her so it's only fair.

hinkley 10y ago
The developmental advice I've heard is that you should praise the act, not the attribute. That is, if they do something clever, you praise the clever thing they did, not the fact that they're clever. I know that probably sounds like splitting hairs, but kids and adults have at least as many issues communicating as adults and other adults have.
- HNSucksAss 10y ago
  On the other hand, I've heard that if a child does something wrong, you criticize the act and try to make it incompatible with the child's self-image. As in, "I don't know why you would punch anyone, because you're such a nice boy!"
- colanderman 10y ago
  It's not splitting hairs at all. "That's so clever" means "do something like that again to get praise". "You're so clever" means "you don't need to do any more work to be praised".
  - hinkley 10y ago
    As adults we can often be imprecise in our praise of others and expect them to just understand that we meant it as a complement. If you tell an adult 'wow you really are clever' it usually means that you appreciate what they did for you or the team and you're trying to say thank you too.

GarrisonPrime 10y ago

I clearly remember getting hugely uncomfortable whenever as a child my intellect was praised by an adult. Made me want to completely stop doing anything, lest it draw more of their biased, narrow-minded judgements of me.

whoops1122 10y ago

in China, we tell our kids that he/she is crap and he/she better work hard now. or the crappy kid next door is going to crap on him/her.

duaneb 10y ago
Seems like that would be psychologically damaging. It's certainly how helicoptor parents are seen in the US.

AStellersSeaCow 10y ago

As an aside, I think this sort of upbringing is a significant contributing factor to the personality type that shows up frequently in the most toxic online groups (MRAs, gamergaters, PUAs, etc). In my glimpses, it's been abundantly clear that many of them are highly intelligent and not much else: single, with shitty jobs, no exceptional skills, and dim prospects for the future. But because they grew up being told they were going to be rich and happy because they were so smart, it's clearly the rest of the world's fault that they didn't end up with the life they feel entitled to.

fragola 10y ago
My parents unfortunately did this to my brother. Especially my mom: "oh you're SO handsome/smart/awesome, all the girls will love you, you should go to the best colleges" etc. He is an extremely unpleasant person now, and definitely not popular with women. It is not entirely parents' fault. I mean, a ton of men have had the same type of conditioning, but then go on to have a series of uncomfortable epiphanies in high school and college that lead to self-improvement and later happiness. But it for sure is setting your kid up for misery, whether temporary or permanent.

mkane848 10y ago

See, my parents did this thing where they'd tell me how smart I am all the time, then whenever there would be an argument or a disagreement "Oh, you're just SO smart and we're all SO stupid". I'm already one of those people with a generally dry/sarcastic sense of humor (think Ruxin from The League, "I can't even tell when you're joking" kinda thing), so I have a hard time telling when I'm actually being an asshole or condescending or not, because while I seriously try to watch myself I still occasionally get the feeling that I came off the wrong way or, well, condescendingly. "You just think you're sooooo smart..."

visarga 10y ago

Praise intelligence -> makes them give up easier. Praise hard work -> could be a subtle attempt at manipulation. Maybe instead we should ask them what they want to do, and support their creative activities.

sverige 10y ago
They are children. The are a big mess of potential without experience. They need guidance from people with experience because they don't know much, even if they have a lot of native intelligence. It's kind of like pruning plants. Some things you encourage, some things you cut off without hesitation. Sounds cold to some, I understand, but once you've raised a few, you'll know what you did right and what you did wrong. That's still better than letting them decide everything.
erikb 10y ago
I don't like this. As a 5 year old you can't even know what you want in 10 minutes.
GrinningFool 10y ago
What a child wants to do is what a child wants to do right now. If you ask the same question a few minutes later, you could get an entirely different answer. As adults who have lived through being children, a surprising percentage of us actually do know better than a small child what's best for the small child for a surprising percentage of their lives.
- visarga 10y ago
  I read once about a highschool boy, a good student, who was shocked when a teacher asked him "What do YOU want to do?". What? he thought. This question has never crossed my mind. Nobody told me I can make my own mind. It was always "teacher knows best" and "parent knows best" and "be a good student and learn what we teach you, do what we tell you". I wrote from this point of view, but I agree that parents and teachers know better most of the time, I just don't know if it is good to try so hard to make sure the child doesn't make any "wrong" choices.

edtechdev 10y ago

It's called "growth mindset" (vs. fixed mindset). There are books and hundreds of articles on it. I've found this TED talk the best explanation of growth vs. fixed mindset: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN34FNbOKXc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN34FNbOKXc

Spooky23 10y ago

Do what makes sense for your kid and you. Everything else is mostly nonsense.

Fordrus 10y ago

Putting a little TL;DR up here on top, because I'd really like to see folks' answers to this: What's the simple-language equivalent of, "You're so smart," or "That was so smart," but for intellectual effort? Now, regularly scheduled thoughts :) : What is a good, short method/word for praising effort? with my 8.5-month old, "Good Job," specific variants on it ("Good Job climbing that staircase, tiny!") and such have worked wonderfully, but I seek something more- It's so easy to praise a child's intelligence - "You're so smart!" "That's so clever!" - but much harder to praise effort, in my experience so far, because "I can tell you worked so hard to do that, that's so great!" just doesn't roll off the tongue very well! And this is important- "Good job!" is at the nexus of how I praise my little boy partially because he totally understand it. He's got that, even if he may not know the individual words exactly, he absolutely knows what Daddy means when, "Good job, baby!" comes out of daddy's mouth. I have VERY LOW FAITH that I could get, "I can tell you worked so hard to do that, that's so great!" to work the same! (Incidentally, I also now feel I know more about why, in America at least, we often say, "I'm doing good," and variants thereof, instead of "I'm doing well." "Well" just isn't in the primal vocabulary quite as deeply, maybe because of its association with "Well, I was going to, but then I didn't," type of statements. "Good" is simple and meaningful, and I often find myself telling my son he's done something so "good," and then correcting myself a little, because, well, I want to teach him correct grammar, but more than that, I want to communicate with him meaningfully - and "good" gets a meaning across with which he's already familiar, while "well" does not, and has other common uses.) So what's the simple-language equivalent of, "You're so smart," or "That was so smart," but for intellectual effort? Maybe I need to invent a word for this and see if it catches on! :D

rhizome 10y ago
Talk about it. "That's great! Was it hard?"
- Fordrus 10y ago
  This is great advice, but I'm not sure it hits the mark I'm trying to hit - I do already talk to my little guy about what things were hard vs. easy, and how much I admire his efforts, but there's a flow to interactions, especially with a small child - I'm looking for something I can use for a shorthand of this kind of conversation, because he totally loses interest if I just sit there and jabber for too long. If I want to impart any actual meaning, I have to be concise (though teaching him to pay attention longer is certainly also on the agenda- but again, can't try to do everything, every time, often there's just a brief moment, and I want to offer praise, it seems right logically to offer praise, it even FEELS right, but- am I then bound to have a whole conversation at that moment, or is there shorthand for the times when for his reasons or my own, I absolutely cannot?

qwertyuiop924 10y ago

People say I'm smart. I don't buy it. I know a lot of things, sure, but anyone can do that. And I'm lazy, so I tend to be a bit slack about everything, but I like to think I can get things done when it counts. After all, when I apply for college, I'll be competing with all kinds of smart kids. And dammit, I happen to like learning things, and as much as I am lazy, my personal desire to learn things kinda outweighs that. Which may be why I've spent so much time when I've been ostensibly slacking off trying to understand monads, reading HN, and, every few months or so, once again trying to bash my way through SICP...

decisiveness 10y ago

One problem is that the children's IQs weren't considered in relation to the task at hand. A more useful study would have included how praise for ability and effort effect children in separate classes of intelligence. To be remotely helpful, at the very least, we should know the range and mean IQ of the children in the study.

cel1ne 10y ago

Of course it can. What does an intelligent kid do? Find the easiest way to do a task or question whether the task is necessary at all. That's just humans conserving energy. Which is smart. This is not the hard part for them, they excel at this. Effort is consciously fighting against the drive to stop working. THIS is the hard part. Above average children never have to learn this, because they get through school and life that easy. It's only when they are forced to leave their comfort zone, when problems show up. Intelligent Children who aren't kept or lead out of this effort-avoidance (which is a kind of motivation as well: the motivation to avoid effort in order to conserve energy) also tend to get worse grades after they got good ones. Because praising them signals them that they actually overachieved and can therefore put even less energy into accomplishing a task. So the way to go is praising them for doing something that they didn't want to do or for repeating effort.

im4w1l 10y ago

If you exaggerate the importance of practice, people will do more of it, and become better. But what is the opportunity cost?

thanatropism 10y ago

I have a pretty good boss. Of course, we're all adults. Anyway, our boss has this way of treating everyone differently -- knowing which buttons to push. With me he'll always give me the occasional harder task saying "This is going to be easy for you"; with my coworker, he has to press harder and say "this is important, don't screw it up". I was recently depressed and without really having been told anything he gave me this hollywood-movie pep talk along the lines of "it's important that you know that you have great talents so don't sweat the small stuff and tell me if you're in trouble". Maybe this is pretty much off-topic, but the point I wanted to make is that people react to different things and much of the art of squeezing motivation and productivity out of them has to do with understanding this.

pwthornton 10y ago

My daughter is only two, but she is clearly smart. Some people tell her how smart she is, but I largely do not. What I try to do instead is to encourage her to keep trying and keep pushing and that failure is temporary. When she was one and learning to climb up and down stairs (which she loves to do over and over again), I would keep telling her "you can do it" as she went down each step and tried to gauge whether or not she could go further. When she was finished I would tell her, "you did it," and she started saying "I did it" when she completed a flight. She also stumbles and falls a lot as we climb different things and walk over different surfaces. I tell her "keep going" or "you've got this" and she gets right back up and keeps trying. I find that if you focus on saying that she'll be alright or making sure she is not hurt (when she is clearly not), she'll dwell on that, start crying and stop doing what she is doing. This story and the other links published here got me thinking about this. Innate ability is clearly important when you really think about it, but what I want to instill is this idea that it's normal and natural to fail along the way to success and that even if you are really talented at something, you'll have setbacks.

pwthornton 10y ago

Part of the problem with telling your kid that they are smart is that most parents think their kids are smart. The average IQ is about 100. It's one thing to tell an objectively intelligent person that they are intelligent, but it's quite another to get someone who doesn't have great innate gifts thinking that they do and then perhaps causing them not to work harder. You can outwork someone and make up for an intellectual or physical disadvantage, but you may be less inclined to do so if people tell you that you have greatly innate gifts than you do. Let's also keep in mind that a lot of very intelligent people are able to focus and think more abstractly, allowing them to be very efficient workers. I just see a lot of parents telling their kids how smart they are, thinking it will build up their self esteem, but I wonder if this is counterproductive if they are actually of more average intelligence.