15 ms·

Don't add your 2 cents

• kahrkunne 10y ago
  Maybe rather than avoiding giving helpful feedback, they should work on fostering better employer - employee relationships
  • nchelluri 10y ago
    i thought the gist was 'avoid giving unhelpful feedback.'
  • dietrichepp 10y ago
    I think it's a common delusion for managers to think that this kind of feedback is helpful, which is the kind of misconception this article addresses. "They should work on fostering better employer - employee relationships" is non-advice, it's just a goal statement. Kind of like telling a runner that they should try going faster.
• baddox 10y ago
  Is it not possible to make it clear that your 2 cents is just a suggestion? This just seems like bad communication, and regardless of whose fault that is, the boss might as well try to solve it.
  • paulsutter 10y ago
    No it's really not possible. Whatever you say, it's going to weight down their thinking.
    • ktRolster 10y ago
      What do you do if they really need improvement?
      • meric 10y ago
        Then it's more than 2 cents worth.
      • baddox 10y ago
        Perhaps say exactly that, for starters.
    • baddox 10y ago
      It really is possible. I have received countless suggestions from my employer that we understand to be merely suggestions rather than orders. This seems like one of the most basic communication requirements in a company hierarchy. I'm surprised people seem to think it's impossible to achieve, when I would sooner think that it's impossible for a company to be functional without having achieved it.
      • NLips 10y ago
        This exactly. At my current employer, I feel I can oppose pretty much anything my managers tell me - technical or non-technical. I can say "I disagree because X", and the reply might come back as "OK - that makes sense", "Let's discuss this in more depth because Y", or "I'm going to overrule, you must do Y". If you have a functional relationship with your managees, they need to know they can disagree with you and that you know you're fallible and just need it pointed out. I always make sure that when I give technical feedback to others (whether higher or lower 'ranked' than me), they can come back and argue any bit they disagree with, and so far almost everyone has at some point.
  • Etzos 10y ago
    I think this is the crux of the issue. The author's examples seem to have the sound of authority because they are coming from a person of authority. There are however, ways around this. For example, using the first quote the author used, instead of outright saying "maybe just a darker shade of blue there" the boss should question why a darker shade of blue wasn't chosen. Perhaps the employee has a good reason for it. Maybe they didn't consider that shade. Either way, a suggestion is made but doesn't sound like authoritative directive.
  • dietrichepp 10y ago
    It's a "suggestion" from a direct superior in a hierarchical power structure. A little bit of communication isn't going to change the context. So no, it is not something simple like "bad communication". I think one of the main problems here is that people in power often feel like they have to justify themselves by giving technical feedback, even when it's not appropriate.
    • Etzos 10y ago
      But there are ways of eliciting critical thought about the choices made and even about alternatives that the person in power has. It is "bad communication" in that the person in power is communicating their desire in a way that is perceived, even if just a little bit, as being a command. And I do believe there are effective ways to mitigate this.
      • dietrichepp 10y ago
        This conversation is a great example of bad communication, if you want a reference. Communication is not just about how you communicate, but when. Good communicators know how and when to listen, and they keep their mouth shut when it's appropriate. That's the lesson of this article. If that's not a problem for you—if you know when to speak and when to listen—then maybe this article won't help you, personally. And if my manager was always trying to elicit critical thought about trivial and mundane matters like font choice and colors on internal tools, then I'd want them to just shut up for a moment. I'd be glad to hear what your effective mitigation strategies are for giving unnecessary advice.
        • Etzos 10y ago
          I think the issue I have is that the author is taking an all or nothing approach. Either something is all wrong and a larger discussion must be had or nothing is worth noting. There is a huge range of things in between there, many of which may be small opinions. After reading the article a few more times and the comments here, I'm getting the impression the author meant "don't add pointless opinions or suggestions to things." The use of the phrase "my two cents" beguiles the author's intent, as in many cases that phrase is not used when one has a pointless opinion.
• guelo 10y ago
  I sometimes convince my boss that he is wrong. I think it's a sign of a healthy team.
• bmmayer1 10y ago
  A better way to approach this situation: "That's great! Love it! Out of curiosity, what inspired you to choose those colors and fonts?" Then, they still have ownership, but they also are given the chance to justify their choice and it starts a conversation that could lead to improvements, if necessary.
  • JoshTriplett 10y ago
    Unless you're genuinely curious, that would likely come across as passive-aggressive undermining.
    • _bpo 10y ago
      Even if you are genuinely curious, such inquiries from a boss/"authority figure" can easily come off as threatening, so tread very carefully with advice like that.
      • hirsin 10y ago
        Indeed - it only takes two or three easy questions like that to become a pattern, at which point every question is code for "guess what you did wrong", which is toxic.
    • Frondo 10y ago
      Try instead: I like it. How did you come up with that?
      • fbonetti 10y ago
        Still passive aggressive. Any person with a brain would see right through that question. If you need to address something, it's better to be direct than to beat around the bush.
        • Frondo 10y ago
          I don't think that is passive aggressive at all. In fact, I say stuff like that all the time, and mean it, because I do like what people come up with and want to know how they did it. How else would you express that?
• paulsutter 10y ago
  This is an excellent mini-rule for habitual micromanagers. Like me :)
  • jacquesm 10y ago
    Maybe you could use 'good' instead of excellent and a ;) instead of a :)?
  • BuckRogers 10y ago
    Micromanaging without just taking the work off their hands is obnoxious. If I had a micromanaging boss, I'd ask him if that project was one he'd prefer to take on himself. As long as you don't mind being micromanaged yourself, then I suppose it's ok. I'd quit as soon as I could though in such a case. My manager giving me his 2 cents annoys me, I'm already stressed out and it just adds more on top of it all. Especially if it's not a suggestion that decreases work to be done, which it rarely is.
• ctur 10y ago
  What this article misses is that genuine feedback helps us grow, and being open to it is as important as being able to deliver it in a way that doesn't take something away from the recipient. Getting others' input and adapting to it (or learning when to accept but not heed it) is crucial for getting better at whatever endeavor one is engaged in. If you have a suitable level of trust and respect between you and the person requesting approval or feedback, then your input can be valuable without it being undermining of their ownership of their creation. In fact, the opposite; by soliciting feedback (preferably early, not just at the end of a project), you can help build a sense of ownership from the person giving feedback.
  • dietrichepp 10y ago
    I thought that was the point of the article—give people only genuine feedback that helps, not hassle them with minutia. Giving unsolicited advice to people you manage can undermine the "suitable level of trust" that you would otherwise have, if you're not careful. There is a big difference, after all, between requesting feedback from someone you respect and getting approval from a superior in a hierarchical power structure. What the article is touching on is the tendency for some managers to give feedback on everything just because they can. Other people in the organization won't have that privilege, and giving feedback on everything reinforces the fact that the other people in the organization are subordinates and don't have that privilege.
    • marklgr 10y ago
      Exactly. If this article annoys you, read it again carefully, it does _not_ argue against feedback in general.
  • st3v3r 10y ago
    The article didn't miss that at all. The article wasn't about meaningful feedback. It was about petty, subjective feedback that doesn't really serve to make anything better, but to make the manager feel as if they did something.
• JacobAldridge 10y ago
  I think it's good to note, as Derek does, the distinction between "2 cents' worth" and larger changes that do require senior input - otherwise you're just being the manager that the team create ducks for [1]. This is where coaching skills as a manager can prove useful. If you feel there are some minor changes that could be an improvement, but don't want to impose your will/opinion, coaching ('ask') can be a better response than managing ('tell'). For example, you might ask "If you had to improve anything, what would you change?" It's an open-ended question that will encourage your team member to think. They can reply "Nothing" if they're confident in the final solution, or they may propose some tweaks they weren't fully happy with - "I'm not sure if that's the right shade of blue" or "I think that's the right call to action, but maybe we could get another opinion". If those are reasonable improvements, empower them to implement the additional change; if you disagree with the extras they raise, tell them you consider the version they proposed to be superior, which empowers their original decision. Just don't be the manager who expects a detailed response and change every time ... then you're right back to where you started. [1] See point 5 https://blog.codinghorror.com/new-programming-jargon/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/new-programming-jargon/
  • thesz 10y ago
    The open question does not always work. I'd say it never works, even. If I take "coaching" attitude, I will take attitude of sports coach - observe, measure and explain why corrective action is needed. The action itself is a choice, mostly, but manager and coach should present a basis for it. Continuing my my rant, I emphasize that manager and coach are external to the team, they view performance from outside (and often prohibited to look under the hood). This is the reason why open questions do not work - difference in view points creates difference in the context.
    • vanderZwan 10y ago
      I thinks specific questions would work well. To use the bad boss example: > I like it! Really good. Maybe just a darker shade of blue there, and change the word ‘giant’ to ‘huge’. Other than that, it’s great! Let's change this to: > I like it! Really good. Can you briefly work me through the design process behind it? I'm particularly interested in how you settled on the colours over there, and your ideas behind the word 'giant'. (This honestly still needs a bit of work, but is getting there) In this phrasing we show interest in the designer's work, respect their choices and don't assume our ideas are better than theirs. Instead we assume they know what they are doing and give them the space to convince us and also tell us what parts of the design do and do not matter to them, before engaging in giving proper feedback. The big issue with the cited bad example is that the boss doesn't say why the design needs a darker shade of blue, or why the word ‘giant’ has to change to ‘huge’. It doesn't give any other feedback than "this is wrong, this is the fix". It's not open for debate.
• Kluny 10y ago
  As a follow up to this article, I need about 40 examples that illustrate the difference between manager opinions that are worth two cents, and useful manager feedback. Or about 10 years of experience, but I'm hopeful that someone will offer examples.
  • deleted 10y ago
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• exolymph 10y ago
  This seems a bit condescending to me. I can take suggestions and feedback without losing sight of my own accomplishments. Because I'm an adult.
• deleted 10y ago
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• antoineMoPa 10y ago
  My experience with work is that everything can be slightly improved all the time. You have to stop at a certain point and I think the author has found the nicest place to stop, at least for employee happiness. On the other side, if you have been working on something alone, I think it is a clever idea to accept the feedback of your boss just to have another perspective.
• fmavituna 10y ago
  If your team cannot take your feedback just like taking feedback from their colleagues, cannot argue with you or veto your idea easily with a legitimate response, take everything you said as a "command" then you have failed as a manager anyway. I assume Derek's advice makes sense for Korean culture where manager and team dynamics are different.
  • ZoFreX 10y ago
    I've seen this happen over and over again in American culture. One of my most common pieces of feedback to managers centers on this, in fact. Time and time again I see managers who _think_ they are able to give feedback as "one of the team" and that they aren't "the boss" or giving people orders... but when you speak to their reports, they are interpreting it as orders from the boss. Even if you produce documents declaring your workplace to have a "flat" structure, people tend to treat any feedback from the person who signs off on their paycheques as commands.
    • fmavituna 10y ago
      2 things: * It's about how make the suggestion. "How about making this blue darker?" vs. "Do you think making this blue darker would give us more engagement? Are there any studies, or have we done A/B testing on this? I think it fits on our branding better because..." etc. Derek's example is really bad one though. Why would a manager (unless an experienced designer) would make such a pointless suggestion? * If everything you say is just done without any sort of questioning then it's obvious there is a problem. So I think any decent manager would notice it.
• timv 10y ago
  I think the suggested comment It’s perfect. Great work! Let’s ship it. has its own set of issues. Firstly, while the conversation started with "I'm looking for input", the manager has suddenly moved it into a push for delivery. If the design was ready to ship, then that won't be an issue, but if all you're looking at is a mockup, or a slapped together stylesheet, etc, then what was an attempt an encouragement has just lumped more pressure on. Also, the comment assumes that the designer thinks it's "done". The request for input could mean "this is the direction I'm going in, does that look right". Telling them that you think it's "ready to ship" still takes ownership from them. You've just moved from being the boss who provides 2 cents on everything to the boss that wants everything to be done right now without taking the time to do it right. Much better to say "I think it's fantastic. Great work! Is it ready to ship, or do you have more to do on it?"
  • marklgr 10y ago
    I think Sivers can make the distinction between commenting on some draft wirh feedback welcome and a demo of some feature about to be released.
    • timv 10y ago
      I'm sure he can, but he didn't write this post in order to inform himself, he wrote it for others to read and learn from. My personal & anecdotal experience has been that there are just as many managers who fail to engage well with draft-work as there are those who want to chip in their 2 cents on everything. There is definitely a class of managers who think they're offering encouragement but are so focused on the end goal that they fail to show respect for what has been achieved so far. Of the two, I prefer those who offer unnecessary input to those whose only response is something them amounts to "is it ready yet?" I would hate to see people read this advice and move from the first group to the second group without realising that they've traded one set of problems for another. I am quite confident that that is not Sivers' intent, but I think it is absolutely a gap in his post.
      • derefr 10y ago
• epa 10y ago
  Tread carefully between being fake and being sincere. People will stop asking you if you give a fake answer like the article.
  • dietrichepp 10y ago
    People who can't sincerely ignore trivial matters probably should stay out of management.
    • marklgr 10y ago
      I assume GP was refering to the "great work" part, but even then it's just matter of style; the point was only to show approval without nitpicking, not emphatic congratulations.
      • dietrichepp 10y ago
        Ah yes, it's too easy to think that a comment is addressing one point when it is addressing another.
    • biocomputation 10y ago
      Can't upvote this enough.
    • collyw 10y ago
      I am not sure if they are better there or writing code.
• euphoria83 10y ago
  Love the suggestion. So many times have minor suggestions from managers killed the enthusiasm for a project because it feels like the manager can't think about or appreciate the bigger picture. In fact, it looks like he is only trying to own the success of the project by picking on non-important stuff.
• Gustomaximus 10y ago
  Something a very smart person advised me was to "Tell people what you want, not what to do" It sounds so simple yet is surprisingly hard to practice. It really puts the onus on you to think carefully about outcomes you desire and explain it clearly.
  • Swizec 10y ago
    Or as Neil Gaiman put it from the opposite perspective:"When people tell it's wrong, they're almost always right. When they tell you how to fix it they're almost never right."
  • collyw 10y ago
    To me that is a lot of the skill I have learned over the years, trying to figure out what people are trying to do when they say they need something. User suggested solutions are usually not the best.
• jasonkester 10y ago
  I like the way Joel Spolsky describes managers taking this even further at Microsoft back in the day. They wanted to make sure the engineers knew that they were the ones designing the software, to the point where they would refuse to even step in and resolve a conflict between two engineers about the design. Even when those two engineers came up and asked for help resolving said conflict. Now you've got three people in the room: a designer, a developer, and a manager. Who's the person who knows least about the problem? Solve it yourself, guys. Perfect. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000072.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000072.html
  • megablast 10y ago
    Right, but you have the engineer saying that is not important, and the designer saying this is the most important part of the software and we might as well not do it at all. This is where you need a decision from someone else.
    • derefr 10y ago
      I don't know if you need arbitration, there, so much as a willingness to allow each party to "pull in" others to help make their point. Like expert witnesses in a trial, but just for the sake of convincing.
    • ryandrake 10y ago
      Not necessarily. One of them may be right, or neither of them. Surely someone who says X is unimportant or that X the most important part of the software can prove it with data/measurement?
  • manmal 10y ago
    This is my favorite talk on that subject (NSConf 2014): https://vimeo.com/97507451 https://vimeo.com/97507451 TLDR: A project needs a dictator in order for the endresult to be well designed and directed (else, it can still be profitable according to speaker, but not excellent). Funny that parent mentioned it, (Ballmer-era) Microsoft gets an unhonorable mention towards the end, with their "meh" XBox concept.
• dclowd9901 10y ago
  As an independent contributor I don't want my manager weighing in on my choices. I see them as out of the loop on the more technical aspects of my job and they should leave those decisions to me. If I come to a more technically senior member of the team who is more knowledgeable, it is to _precisely_ ask for their opinion. So in my mind: if you're a manager, don't bother; if you're a more senior IC, do, with the explanation of why your approach is better. You're more of a mentor at that point than a manager. Oh, and if your approach isn't really better, just different, keep it to yourself.
  • jacquesm 10y ago
    > Oh, and if your approach isn't really better, just different, keep it to yourself. This really is the heart of the problem, not giving feedback when it is solicited (unless it is really soliciting for approval rather than feedback). There usually are many ways to do something, all of them roughly equal and it doesn't matter who gets to chart the road to take, as long as a road gets taken and you can move on to the next issue. Way too often the discussion will center around who gets to claim that their road was taken, which is more often than not utterly irrelevant. Office politics is the silent killer of teams, projects, products and whole companies and this is one of the more immediately destructive manifestations.
• tn13 10y ago
  Man! I wish my boss had read it 5 years ago. I could never understand why I was not motivated in my job at all even though my boss was really brilliant. It basically reduced to this. No matter what I did the boss always had 2 cents that had little impact on anything but made be less interesting in doing the work. But for my next job the boss was much better, instead of saying change this and change that he would often ask me why I made certain choices and what inspired me. He would then say "ship it" but the questions he raised made me wonder how I could make things better. But the advice is something everyone must learn.
• majkinetor 10y ago
  If your manager asks you to change a color or font or whatever that has 0 relevance to the actual task, you know then that your manager is an idiot and you should probably start searching for another job or a way to move up over him. I had number of such situations. You are almost always better off without that in your life.
• johnwheeler 10y ago
  Dale Carnegie Rule #1: Never condemn, criticize or complain. In general, we're all not actually looking for input so much as support. Human nature is such that even when we readily acknowledge someone better at something, we quietly indulge and seek out advantages we have in other areas. We engineers like to think we're more rational and accepting of input. Working as a coder and manager for the last 20 years has shown me there's nothing further from the truth.
• abalone 10y ago
  This doesn't necessarily invalidate the advice, but Steve Jobs clearly did not abide but it (would critique icons at the pixel level, etc.), so it is demonstrably not universal advice for building successful companies.
  • jypepin 10y ago
    True, but I don't think the advice is about building a successful company but more about being a successful manager - which Steve Jobs was definitely not as he was famous for being a tirant.
  • vxNsr 10y ago
    I would argue that sj only critiqued things that he genuinely felt needed to be changed. Though he was also demonstrably the worst manager one could have so I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from him.
    • abalone 10y ago
      > sj only critiqued things that he genuinely felt needed to be changed Which included incredibly detailed nuances like pixel-level critiques of icons and UIs, which is literally what the author defines as "your 2 cents". > demonstrably the worst manager one could have so I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from him Except how to build one of the most valuable companies in the world? Seems like a fair criterion for good management.
      • dilemma 10y ago
        Why did Steve Jobs think the iPhone shouldn't be able to copy and paste?
• fidz 10y ago
  So as a leader, she/he does not need to get into details and just simply ignore insignificant details?
• ojosilva 10y ago
  I find the advice highly condescending. > Because of that small change, that person no longer feels full ownership of their project. What kind of person is that who 1) thinks the ownership is 100% theirs when working in a team? 2) can't handle a little nitpicking? 3) feels it's less their work just because of a little change? 4) can't defend their work and resist those 2c? This is advice for managing 2 year olds. As a manager, just be your reasonable self. The truth is key for a functioning team. Giving people feedback and letting them know where they stand helps build trust. > It’s perfect. Great work! Let’s ship it. Ditto!
  • ry_ry 10y ago
    At first glance it seemed to imply collaboration is only possible between employees of equal grade, but I guess this applies more to unsolicited advice rather than an open discussion. As long as the person offering their 2 cents is open to a fluctuating exchange rate, then I'm always happy to discuss my work with management!
  • StanislavPetrov 10y ago
    >This is advice for managing 2 year olds. That's exactly the vibe I got from reading this article. I immediately thought of someone trying to manage super-fragile millennials who wilt and pout without constant encouragement and affirmation. If I submit I project for scrutiny, I want constructive criticism and advice. The goal should to make the project as good as it can be, not manage the feelings of emotionally challenged workers.
    • dwightgunning 10y ago
      I've unfortunately had to manage baby boomers who'd often react this way.
    • derefr 10y ago
      Perhaps it's like SEO, where all the low-hanging fruit is obvious and sensible, but where further optimization beyond that point is stuff that looks really odd and counter-intuitive, or like it "couldn't possibly" have any impact. Maybe people put out a 1.0 units of effort when you're just a reasonable person, but put out e.g. 1.1 units when you baby them, and so babying them is a "win" in some sense?
• unabst 10y ago
  Huge Sivers fan! With that said, I'd take this advice way further. > The boss’s opinion is no better than anyone else’s. All opinions are no better. Does not matter who. Throw out opinions altogether. In America we are obsessed with "our right to our opinion" and somehow have confabulated this to equal our individuality, our exceptionalism, and our success. We're unique to begin with, exceptional is only a hard earned reputation, and success is just a feeling. Case in point, unique is effortless because it takes effort to be identical to other people; no one has ever been exceptional without doing exceptional work; define success conveniently, and we're all successful. > your opinion is dangerous All opinions are dangerous. A doctor doesn't operate based on opinion. Engineers don't build rockets based on opinion. Programmers don't program based on opinion. Reality is fact based, not opinion based. Don't add your 2 cents. Add something that's actually worth something. Faster, lighter, stronger, cheaper, smoother, more efficient, more succinct, more obvious, more fun... Better is measurable. If you need progress, you need facts. And if you start comparing "opinions" and find one is better, you're already seeking facts. Opinions about opinions is demonstratively far worse. Of course, this is all professionally speaking. When consequences don't matter, we're free to indulge in our opinions because we all have them. They're automatic. But just because you thought something, it doesn't mean squat. If anything, opinions are funny. Off the clock, do and say whatever you want. But whenever you need to be real, share what you know, not what you think. The more you know the better. Never confuse this with the more you talk or the louder you voice your opinion. Bosses that authoritatively enforce their opinion are the worst. And most importantly, know when you know. Because only then can you or anyone go gather facts before making that important decision. Talking and thinking is not gathering facts! Googling is. If you're still wondering why Donald Trump is doing so well, it's because so many of us still live in an opinion based reality. He is the feel good candidate for his supporters. Hasan Minhaj just did an awesome piece on the Daily Show [0]. His supporters don't care what he says, and their opinions are hilarious. Not to mention they are all wonderful people. If not for politics, we'd all be holding hands in a circle. For better or worse, democracy treats facts and opinions equally. But a good boss won't. They are not equal, and only one leads to true progress. ---- [0] http://www.cc.com/video-clips/ukn1y5/the-daily-show-with-trevor-noah-muslims-prepare-for-a-donald-trump-presidency http://www.cc.com/video-clips/ukn1y5/the-daily-show-with-tre...
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• odabaxok 10y ago
  This reminds me this story https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2013/06/05/duck/ https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2013/06/05/duck/ (Project managers, ducks, and dogs marking territory)
• deleted 10y ago
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• cursivedgreat 10y ago
  I always feel not to add those extra two cent when i'm responsible to something. You just my words here. Thanks
• collyw 10y ago
  Reminds me of the designers pricelist. http://www.creativebloq.com/career/graphic-designers-price-list-priceless-91516736 http://www.creativebloq.com/career/graphic-designers-price-l...
• donkeyd 10y ago
  As somebody who is working himself up the food chain and has a tendency to give his two cents, this is some real food for though. Thanks for sharing!
• virtualized 10y ago
  Wow, what a bad example. That is called constructive criticism and is a very valuable tool in a company's toolbox of culture. What I observed to be actually harmful is criticism of how an employee works: Tools, practices and habits. If your boss tells you that the build tool of your choice sucks without naming a better alternative or any constructive advice, that feels really bad and destroys motivation for the job.
  • multjoy 10y ago
    No it isn't. The example presented is the manager throwing in his two cents worth because they feel they ought to contribute something, which is what the article is arguing against.
• apatters 10y ago
  While I'm normally a fan of Derek's musings, this one is too pithy for me. He is painting with too broad of a brush. There are all kinds of reasons why you might tell an employee to make small changes: maybe one small change will have a big impact; maybe many small changes in aggregate will have a big impact; maybe the employee doesn't want to take ownership; maybe the employee is too junior to take ownership; maybe the employee wants to learn the nuances of the profession in greater detail; maybe the employee is an underperformer; I could go on like this indefinitely as could many other experienced managers. Now maybe if you're employing a bunch of independent-thinking artistic, creative and intelligent types this generalization makes sense. But I'm sure the global workforce has substantially more than 1 billion members who don't fit this definition. In that light it seems a little irresponsible to put this thought out there like it's a zen koan.
• pbreit 10y ago
  This would need to happen 10 times before I would think I don't own the project. If I can't take input, I should not have a job.
• jagermo 10y ago
  So if I have an honest opinion about something my coworker or employee asks me, I should not tell him, so that I won't hurt his feelings? Is this kindergarten or grown-up life? Especially in creative areas it pays to let other people look at your stuff and get feedback. It is simply too easy to just get stuck on a path.
  • ZoFreX 10y ago
    The article draws an explicit line between giving feedback as a coworker and as a manager. If you didn't get that, rather than reproducing the arguments here I humbly suggest you re-read it.
• tobtoh 10y ago
  As a manager, I tend to frame my feedback/opinions as 'Have you considered <something>?' or 'Can you explain your thinking behind this <feature/function/design>?' Doing it this way, I get an understanding of their rationale and if I still think my idea is good, I can debate the worthiness of it against my employees reasoning. I feel this approach fosters a 'best idea wins' rather than a 'manager opinion trumps all'. I agree with Derek's implied point that 'manager opinion trumps all is bad', but think it's a discredit to his staff if he doesn't challenge their ideas if he thinks he has something more worthwhile.
  • torrent-of-ions 10y ago
    This post is much better than the article. The manner in which you deliver criticism is very important. When criticising somebody on their method I find it is much nicer to say "I like to do it like this..." They will then be encouraged to try your method and they might like it. You are not attacking their method. I find it unfortunate that most people take criticism as an attack, but they do and choice of language and delivery can soften the blow and bypass their defences.
    • ZoFreX 10y ago
      > "I like to do it like this..." They will then be encouraged to try your method and they might like it The danger here is that this will often be interpreted as "my boss wants me to do it like this", and they will do it not because the idea stands on its own merits, but because it was the boss's idea.
  • cpkpad 10y ago
    It depends on the culture, but I prefer cultures where everyone, including management, gives input, and the creator picks-and-chooses. Management, even upper management, giving input shouldn't necessitate a change. Management has a big picture individuals often lack. That's an important part of the process. On the other hand, it shouldn't dominate the process.
  • franciscop 10y ago
    I love this, I have taught few people programming and I always do it this way. My guess is that it also depends on the level of knowledge of the person doing the task. Since they were students, there are small things that they just don's know (for example, adding a class to make it responsive). But since I'm always challenging my own decisions, I have no problem when someone adds their "two cents" and I have to show why it doesn't work that way (or I learn something new). After a couple of times they realize I know what I'm doing.
• torrent-of-ions 10y ago
  Ugh. This reeks of "safe space" nonsense. Part of working in a team is receiving comments and criticism from others. If you take these negatively and as attacks to you, rather than collective construction towards the final goal, then you have a problem and need to consider changing job. I find that when I design something I become accustomed to early design choices and then eventually become blind to them. I need someone to come along with a fresh pair of eyes, see the whole thing and nitpick it. It's absurd to suggest that it's either perfect or needs to scrapped entirely.
  • luke_s 10y ago
    Well, I was going to downvote, but figured it's better to comment. > Ugh. This reeks of "safe space" nonsense. What? I have very little idea what you are talking about, so I looked it up on wikipedia: "In educational institutions, safe-space (or safe space), safer-space, and positive space originally were terms used to indicate that a teacher, educational institution or student body does not tolerate anti-LGBT violence, harassment or hate speech, thereby creating a safe place for all lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender students." Which frankly sounds like a good idea, but doesn't seem like it has much to do with this blog post about managing members of your team. > Part of working in a team is receiving comments and criticism from others. If you take these negatively and as attacks to you, rather than collective construction towards the final goal, then you have a problem and need to consider changing job. Yes, except the point of the blog post is that managers should be aware that comments and criticism they would have been happy to offer as co-workers suddenly start to look a lot more like commands when they are coming from a boss. It's a good idea for new managers to be aware of this changed dynamic.
    • torrent-of-ions 10y ago
      > > Ugh. This reeks of "safe space" nonsense. > What? I have very little idea what you are talking about, so I looked it up on wikipedia: "In educational institutions, safe-space (or safe space), safer-space, and positive space originally were terms used to indicate that a teacher, educational institution or student body does not tolerate anti-LGBT violence, harassment or hate speech, thereby creating a safe place for all lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender students." It was originally something like that but "safe spaces" just turned into echo chambers where everyone is only allowed to agree and encourage people and dissenting opinions are considered "unsafe".
• hellofunk 10y ago
  Sorry, but this is just lame. A manager has a job to do, too, and whether or not they do it well, it is within their prerogative to add comments or suggestions, even if small, if they think it will improve a product. Put yourself in the manager's position (which ironically this article seems to attempt to do). Go further, suppose it is your company, not just your department. Are you going to let a product ship when something minor could be improved to make it even better? A sloppy manager might. Or one who doesn't care. This article almost seems to suggest that managers should care less. Attention to detail is what often separates good from excellent.
  • nostrademons 10y ago
    I think the point is to avoid getting lost in the forest because you want to climb every tree. As part of a leadership training program I once did, we had a Q&A with an executive where we could ask him anything. One of the questions was "What was the most surprising thing about going from an individual contributor to a manager to an executive?" His answer was, "I learned that as you get higher up in the organization, oftentimes you need to seek a good solution rather than the best solution." Yes, this means that the product will be less excellent than it could be. Anyone who has used a big company's product can tell you that this is what actually happens. And yes, this leaves openings for big companies to get replaced by hungry little startups. But the alternative is for the big company to function like a startup that has a few thousand uncommitted people wandering around drawing a salary while providing input. Imagine working under those conditions as a founder; you won't get very much done, and people who work under those conditions in a big company don't get much done either. If you want the product to be excellent, go quit and make an excellent (if minimal) product. If you want to work with a lot of other people, then let them do their jobs.
• darkrabbi 10y ago
  Feeling ownership doesn't have to mean managers can't contribute at all, that's absurd. Creative labor is unqiue - Depending on the employee, I know I have X changes I can suggest/propose per project before they start to get annoyed with me, for some it's more than others. Unsurprisingly when its promo time the guys who are easier to work with get brought up (even if the difficult divas work is marginally better) The big thing is trust and respect - earning that early on is key and once you do things are much easier going forward.
• jecyll 10y ago
  Great advice, short but precise!
• visakanv 10y ago
  It's tough to be prescriptive about this sort of thing in a general way. Every situation is different. It really depends on who you're working with, sort sort of context you're working in, what sort of expectations you're working with, etc. I would say, "make sure you set expectations in advance about how feedback is to be interpreted and acted upon". My boss gives me his 2 cents all the time, and I enjoy it. And vice versa. Sometimes I preface my suggestion with "you don't have to do change anything, but FYI...", and sometimes I say "I feel quite strongly about this: XYZ" – and even then we have an understanding about whether or not something should or should not be changed. It works the other way too. I've shipped things without incorporating feedback, and all was well. So I think it boils down to culture. Everyone's understanding of what the norms are, what is expected, etc. (Just for fun: Can you imagine telling Elon Musk or Steve Jobs not to add their 2 cents?)
• DavidWanjiru 10y ago
  My two cents: rather than tell someone to change a word here, a colour shade there, what you should do is give your reasons for WHY. Why is this shade of blue better than the one I chose? Why is a given call to action better than another? That way, your opinion becomes, if not data driven, at least reason or anecdote driven. And that shouldn't demoralize anyone, I should think.
• samscully 10y ago
  Some factors in motivation at work are the level of autonomy, mastery and purpose in your job. A coworker giving minor feedback is only contributing to your mastery. A boss giving you the same minor feedback is cutting in to your autonomy. The exception is when the purpose is great and sweating every detail is necessary or when the boss is a recognised master of your craft and their feedback is almost always correct and regularly helps you improve. An example of the first case might be engineering at SpaceX and the second could be Steve Jobs giving engineers and designers product feedback. What I think a lot of people are missing in this thread is that in most situations the purpose is relatively uninspiring and the boss is significantly less skilled than the person she is giving advice to.
• giis 10y ago
  > because it’s not just one person’s opinion anymore — it’s a command! Spot on. Exactly the reason for quitting my last job. Boss(manager) comes and adds his 'suggestion' to every task.Even though, I tried to stick to my way to going about the task. He continued to insist that I should give this view a trail run first. After a week or so, When thing go wrong, I'll go back original method and finish the task. Later, he will complain about I'm being slow to respond to task. When I point out the unnecessary time-wasted due to his suggestion. Now he will backtrack & put it as 'I was only giving suggestions, it was your baby anyway'. It happened 3 or 4 times & I had enough. Funny thing - During my last day, I took this issue to CEO. To my surprise, he said, 'Yeah, employee has to take my suggestion, since I'm their boss'! [to those bosses if you are reading this:] - I don't have any issue with trying out your ideas - but when thing go wrong, take the responsibility for your _stupid_ idea.
• johanneskanybal 10y ago
  This makes so much sense yet didn't cross my mind.
• ryanbrunner 10y ago
  The way I've always tried to approach this is by pointing out problems, rather than offering solutions, especially where I'm in a position that I'm giving feedback to someone who is more of an expert in the activity than I am. Expressing things as problems automatically eliminates a lot of the minutiae about wording, color, etc. (since those are just subjective opinions and not reflective of a problem), and it lets people still feel like they're owning the work and not making changes they disagree with because they're forced to. Example: Providing solutions: "Move the 'widgets' menu to the top. And make it bold" Expressing a problem: "So, when I'm using the app, one of the first things I usually want to do is look at my widgets. It took me a few minutes to find out how to do that." The solution to this problem might be looking into whether accessing widgets is a common use case, or finding different ways of educating users about how to find widgets, or yes, even moving it to the top. But no matter which solution is chosen, everyone is going to come out of it with more information than if they blindly implemented the manager's uninformed opinion.
• haasn 10y ago
  I can't agree with this article at all. From my experience on contributing to FOSS projects, I feel much better when somebody senior makes adjustments to my code rather than leaving it as-is. Not only does it tell me that they actually read my code and spot errors (the added bug safety net makes it much less stressful for me to write new code), but it also makes me feel like I'm learning something new that I wouldn't otherwise have. Finally, it inadvertently means that the rest of my code passed their “high” standards for quality, which is gratifying - especially for large commits in which I only need to change little. I guess the key difference between my experience and this article, though, is that the article seems to be mostly focused in a non-technical boss commenting on benign/arbitrary opinions (like shades of color), rather than a technically skilled superior commenting on his area of expertise. That might explain why I have such a 180° reversal from this article's stance.
  • zouhair 10y ago
    I think both of you are right, if the Boss/Senior is more qualified in the subject at hand a 2 cent is more than welcome, the problem arise when the Boss/Senior is not more qualified.
    • moystard 10y ago
      The issue is that many will think themselves qualified. It would be too easy if the Boss/Senior in the case described in the article was aware of their non qualification in the domain. I think the article is simply that if you are pushing for a very small change, one that would make not much difference, and is just a matter of opinion, then don't do it as it will impact negatively the original author.
      • sitkack 10y ago
        This was one of the hardest things when I managed people. Most solutions won't be how you would do them, maybe they are 75% 84% of the way there. Constantly judging and tweaking others work when it doesn't make a material difference has a mental and emotional toll on everyone. I learned to go with the flow, if I though that things could be slightly better I would give them a nonbinding code review a couple weeks later. If matters now, we discuss it now, if doesn't we ship. Bosses shouldn't be bossy except in rare circumstances. Most of aren't the creative director, so don't enforce your idiosyncratic aesthetic on your team members.
• jhbadger 10y ago
  Emperor Joseph II from Amadaeus: "My dear, young man, don't take it too hard. Your work is ingenious. It's quality work. And there are simply too many notes, that's all. Cut a few and it will be perfect!"
• werber 10y ago
  I think this is more-so a critique of toxic manager-developer relations, but that's just my 2 cents.
• mesozoic 10y ago
  Great advice. Now how to subtly get the boss to read this...
• shocks 10y ago
  I am reminded of the story about the duck! https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2013/06/05/duck/ https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2013/06/05/duck/
• agentgt 10y ago
  I think the article/blog post is missing a key point in that the employee came to the manager asking what he thought. This is a critical role that the manager plays that the article decides to come up with a unreferenced social psychology manipulation solution when there is a greater problem at hand.... the employee is nervous about shipping the product and wants approval. The reason why this is because a great manager is supposed to protect and shield employees from the outside so that they can feel at ease with making decisions and working with out fear of making some mistake that costs there job (unlike the article I can site like 5 or so Harvard Business Review articles written by experts that show this is often the reason why employees come to ask questions like that.. yes I'm being snide but I think "What got you here want get you there" is basically on overrated Dale Carnegie rewritten). Not getting any input sends a message of "I don't really care about your work". And if you really wanted to coach and you really believe this arm chair psychology then why not send a link of the article to the employee asking the advice and say "I would like to give some input but I want to assure you that I think you own this project... etc etc...". Education is a powerful thing... manipulation is not.
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• andremendes 10y ago
  This reminds me of that story about the bikeshed[1] colour: "This is a metaphor indicating that you need not argue about every little feature just because you know enough to do so. Some people have commented that the amount of noise generated by a change is inversely proportional to the complexity of the change." [1]: http://bikeshed.com/ http://bikeshed.com/
• quadrangle 10y ago
  Oh how I wish I had a downvote ability on this post. The first thing wrong with this is the fact that the post is nothing more than the author's 2 cents. The author doesn't know what they hey they're talking about and is just pontificating. As someone who does a lot of creative work, I hate it when people just give useless positive encouragement and withhold actual constructive feedback, small or large. Only hypersensitive people feel worried about their loss of ownership because they accepted someone's suggestion. A situation where a boss having a color preference means that a designer feels unable to reject the suggestion is a dysfunctional workplace. When the manager has that type of feedback, they are not being a manager. A good manager makes it clear that if they have color feedback, that's just their suggestions and not them acting in capacity as a manager.
  • erikb 10y ago
    I have to agree with a lot of what you say, but just as the article I think you haven't completely thought through what you are writing. For instance, let's add two points that in real life can't be circumvented: a) most places that pay you will be dysfunctional work places, and b) you don't always have a choice of work since you need to pay bills. And what are your standards for downvoting? I downvote when I think a comment/link is hurtful for the discussion or people involved. And yes, while it is not a very well finished article from Derek, it leads to a healthy discussion and in itself is not a bad/hurtful opinion to have.
    • dpark 10y ago
      >most places that pay you will be dysfunctional work places This article is aimed at managers. It is advice on how to create a functioning work place. To the extent it fails to do so, it is entirely appropriate to say "Hey, this is bad advice for reason X." It is not interesting to rebut this by saying "Yeah, but reason X isn't valid if the manager is terrible." The whole point is that the manager shouldn't be terrible. This isn't advice for non managers and it isn't advice for managers who aren't trying to be good managers. Managers who don't care about creating a functioning work environment aren't reading and discussing this anyway.
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• fixermark 10y ago
  Related: Parkinson's Law of Triviality, and the Queen's pet duck in Battle Chess (when developers become aware of management's need to unnecessarily "finishing touch" all work and begin making slightly-inefficient choices intentionally to give the work a "shear point" where the management can feel like they're contributing by removing something obviously incorrect). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality Similar processes have been used for decades by movie and television creatives to move the Overton window on media censorship---early cuts of a project will have something obviously grotesque and culturally repugnant, so the censors lock onto that and miss the risqué thing the creator wanted to get to their audience.
• bambax 10y ago
  Excellent. So simple advice, so obvious, so true. Works with kids, too.
• meerita 10y ago
  The problem is the initial question, not the manager input. There's a significant difference between delivering something with facts than delivering something and asking for approval.
• darkerside 10y ago
  This is a total straw man. There's something in between bikeshedding and blindly approving work you feel is less than perfect. What if the boss responded with, "Why did you choose this color of blue?" This indicates respect for an intentional choice, lets the employee provide a rationale and be heard, and still moves towards a better final product. There's a false dichotomy presented in the article, and it's crap.
• codingdave 10y ago
  Your boss' opinion might not be better... but it often does have more authority. In my case, I work directly for the president of the company. He owns the place, he founded it, he built it, it is his. Whether or not his opinion is better, it does hold complete authority, and it is his right to have his company run his way. Now, if you are a low/mid-level manager, the advice from the article may be more applicable to your situation. But your own corporate structure and culture will have an impact on the validity of that advice.
  • mcguire 10y ago
    Speaking as someone who has been "the technical guy" for 20-odd years, if the president of the company wants to pick nits like variable names and coding style, he's perfectly within his rights to do so. But he can do it without me.
    • ryandrake 10y ago
      I've worked for those "I'm the CEO, do it my way" guys. They hire you for your brain but end up only wanting to use your fingers.
      • codingdave 10y ago
        There is probably a balance to be struck. Because I've also worked for milquetoasts whose teams walk all over them, doing whatever they want. The product suffers, the team suffers, and the company suffers.
• 55555 10y ago
  I have a similar tip to provide: When a designer or developer shows you a version that is not nearly done, don't provide any _specific_ feedback. If you mention specifically that a button should be red instead of blue, for example, then you are communicating that they are almost done, and they simply need to make the minor changes you mention for you to be happy. If the work isn't nearly finished, it's better to instead say, "Great work so far. I don't want to rush you. I think you should spend some more time refining the UX. Do a few trial runs as a user and do the best job you can to make the most perfect UX possible." As soon as you mention specific things, they mentally move on.
  • mangeletti 10y ago
    Absolutely terrific advice. As soon as I read "_specific_ feedback", my eyes lit up. Another issue with specific feedback is that "...should be red instead of blue" type feedback can derail a designers whole thought process, a thought process which usually doesn't end at the delivery of a draft, which is merely an optional stop along the way in the mind of the designer. A designer might have ideas for how to address certain kinds of objections to a draft. For example, if boss says, "It doesn't match our brand well enough.", the designer might have some specific ideas that he/she came up with, in case that was a perceived issue. If, instead, the boss says, "It doesn't match our brand well enough, so add more blue.", then the designer's route can no longer be used, and an entirely new route has to be determined. I use the railway analogy, because I think it actually maps exactly: Imagine you, as a train passenger, told the conductor (the person you've hired to be your railway professional) exactly where to go, and there wasn't a predefined switch for getting there OR the switch for getting to that exact location has already been passed. The only way to achieve this new route is to backtrack or build a new switch track, both of which are more expensive than continuing on the existing route to a location that also solves the passenger's problems.
• dahart 10y ago
  Honest question - is this idea of individual ownership conducive to team morale, enough to protect ownership like this? I've seen a lot of examples of how "ownership" backfires when people are protective of their turf or disregard others' valid input. Ownership seems to be commonly used to get people to take personal responsibility as a proxy for motivation, it does help some people set better examples, but does it motivate a team and make it more cohesive on the whole? I have seen 2-cents backfire a lot a well, but I think it's most often strong personal opinion not backed by good reasons, like evidence or unseen constraints or dependencies, etc. This article started by the boss asking for "non-obvious advice", and then provided an example of advice that was pure opinion without any reason, and stated as a veiled command rather than offering an alternative option. It can be important to share actually non-obvious insights, even if it's just 2 cents worth, so I won't be asking my team to avoid sharing their 2 cents as a blanket rule, I will ask them to share any important insights they may have, and encourage them to have a good reason.
• jsprogrammer 10y ago
  The boss should not say, "it's perfect!", if the boss feels it is not....which is literally what this article is advocating. In the hypothetical situation described, I get the impression that the boss didn't even look closely at the two weeks worth of work. To then get immediate flattery feels very disingenuous to me.
• SudoNhim 10y ago
  Huh... approaching this from the opposite side, when my boss has suggestions I always take it as an opportunity to let them feel some ownership of the work, even on occasions where the suggestions don't turn out to be that useful in practice ("I implemented your suggestion of X, which led me to come up with Y"). Trying to game professional relationships goes both ways I guess :)
• daveheq 10y ago
  Yes, bosses should always say "Perfect work!" so the developer feels full ownership of the project.
• CiPHPerCoder 10y ago
  > “It’s perfect. Great work!” I cringed. It's not perfect, it's at best excellent.
• patwalls 10y ago
  I like to get feedback from as many people as possible, and take action on MOST of the [actionable] feedback. In my experience, this always leads to a better final product.
  • collyw 10y ago
    You have obviously worked with more competent people than me.
• freyir 10y ago
  The correct management approach is to test 41 different shades of blue, collect $219M.
• deleted 10y ago
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• Mz 10y ago
  Maybe "Don't add your 2 cents" is not the best way to frame this, but he is correct that being the boss means your opinion is dangerous. More accurately, casually tossing out half-baked ideas is dangerous for anyone with real power or even social influence. When your words carry enormous weight merely because you said them, you need to be more careful about the things you say because it will have consequences. If it really is just a casual opinion, and not something you have really thought about, it is better to err on the side of not expressing it in such a situation.