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I've been a vegetarian for the last decade and change, and I simultaneously think that finding a cheaper, appealing alternative to meat is both a fantastic oppo

I've been a vegetarian for the last decade and change, and I simultaneously think that finding a cheaper, appealing alternative to meat is both a fantastic opportunity for the world and a really difficult thing. I used to love meat when I was a meat-eater, and I'm a fairly picky eater that dislikes many vegetable options. (Green peppers are nasty and food-destroying in my opinion, which immediately removes over half the vegetarian options out there, just as an example), so I consider myself a decent bellweather for people who like the tastes of meat but want to actually eat less of it for various reasons. The options that already exist today are quite varied. Boca, Morningstar, Beyond Meat, and Quorn are all big names that offer meat alternatives that taste VERY different from each other. Most of my meat eating friends won't even try any of these, sight unseen. (When they see them, they tend to have even more reluctance). So, while I think it's absolutely worthwhile to make alternatives that seem more "real", there is still a stigma to overcome just by virtue of being fake. And in america, at least, where meat-eating is tied to masculinity and bacon is worshipped, that's a tough stigma to shake. Decent imitations of highly processed meat exist already - I've had chicken nuggets that meat eaters had no idea were fake, and I fed my in-laws a "turkey loaf" dinner for Thanksgiving for years without them realizing - but matching the taste of "quality" meats hasn't yet happened.

wavefunction 10y ago
When I visit India and eat vegetarian food properly prepared by a culture that has refined vegetarian cuisine beyond "fake meat", I don't miss meat at all. Much of Western food is only expected to be an accompaniment to a meat dish, which is why you can't just cut meat out and eat the vegetable dishes you're used to when you're eating meat as well, imnsho.
- arjie 10y ago
  To present the other side, I lived in India a long time and vegetarian cuisine there always left me unsatisfied. If, for some reason, I had to eat a vegetarian meal (say I'm going to a Brahmin wedding), I'd just eat meat before I left for it because the alternative was to be unhappy.
- ergothus 10y ago
  I'm a huge fan of Indian food. (Because it's tasty, AND because they are one of the few foreign countries that uses the same definition of "vegetarian" that I do). That said, I actually have a fairly limited range there too: if you don't like yogurt, dill, bell peppers, cucumbers, or okra, a lot gets cut out. That's on me an my tastes, not the Indian food, but it's still a reality I have to deal with.
  - delecti 10y ago
    > the same definition of "vegetarian" that I do Can you elaborate?
    - matt4077 10y ago
      Well, in Africa chicken isn't regarded as meat, to give one example from my own experience. In western countries, there's some ambiguity around eggs, fish, and possibly lard but only as far as vegetarians can't all agree on those either.
      - snuxoll 10y ago
        Even as a meat eater I don't eat fish unless I caught it myself. Commercial fishing has gotten out of control and I refuse to contribute to the practice, as well as the shocking frequency that fish are mislabeled.
        ajmurmann 10y ago
        This is such a huge gripe for me. I love fish but hate the industry. In fact I wish we could have a 5 year moratorium on any fishing. Fishing is the best example for the tragedy of the commons.
        iamdave 10y ago
        There was an episode of Archer recently that was a crossover with the old Sealab cartoon (2021, the "spoof" version to be specific) and Captain Murphy was holding the world hostage with "nukes" (he didn't have any nukes) in demand for a moratorium on fishing. It wasn't the first time I had heard demands for such a pause, but it was definitely a position I wasn't expecting to see echoed in Archer. In some other cartoon as a wink and a nod to the parents, sure. But definitely not Archer.
- wil421 10y ago
  Not a vegetarian but I do go out with many Indian colleagues who are vegetarian and have family members or friends who dont eat meat. I do agree with the assumption that western vegetarians tend to want meat replacements. The biggest difference for me was seeing how a lot of Indian cuisine is actually unhealthy. Most everything is fried in oil or has so much clarified butter its unhealthy. The Indian diet (at least the people in my office) seems more unhealthy vs the western vegetarian diet and several people in my office have had heart attacks.
  - amalag 10y ago
    Traditional Indian food is perfectly healthy. Fresh vegetables, grains, etc. Even clarified butter used to be prepared differently.
    - nostrebored 10y ago
      People still think that oil and butter are bad for you, despite the mountains of research that saturated fat is not unhealthy, and the new research regarding weight loss that the high fat Mediterranean diet is better than low fat diets. The only reasonable complaints re Indian food are high carbs and low amounts of high quality protein
  - mycodebreaks 10y ago
    It is true for most of the restaurants serving different cuisines. Home-prepared Thai food is healthier than the food at Thai restaurants. Replace Thai with Chinese, Burmese, Vietnamese, Indian, and it would still hold true.
    - cthalupa 10y ago
      Having eaten a lot of home-prepared South Indian food, I'm not sure I really agree. Home cooked food has the ability to be healthier than restaurant prepared, but I don't know if there's enough data to really claim one way or the other - homecooked is not healthier just by virtue of being homecooked.
- walrus01 10y ago
  As much as I enjoy Indian vegetarian food, as a person that does eat meat, there are also a bewildering variety of dishes possible with the same spices and ingredients with meat added. One example is what you can find in Pakistani cuisine where the vast majority of the population is Muslim and does eat meat. There is of course a great deal of culinary overlap in the Punjab region, food is much older than the 1947 partition. If you ever visit Lahore I highly recommend trying the local restaurants.
  - Manishearth 10y ago
    Oh, nonvegetarian food from the subcontinent can be amazing. Even from Hindu-majority areas -- Indian (or even Hindu) vegetarians are the minority (30%), just a generally affluent and vocal minority. Aside from beef, of course.
    - vshan 10y ago
      You need to ask your Keralite friends to prepare some beef.
      - Manishearth 10y ago
        Oh, not saying Indian beef cuisine sucks, saying beef-eating is not in the majority :)
    - hx87 10y ago
      Not to mention pork as well--it seems like in a lot of places with arid climates and Islamic influence, people don't eat pork even if there is no religious prohibition per se. That's why I like Greek, Goan and northwestern Chinese food--it has all the tastiness of middle eastern & central/south Asian food, but with my favorite meat.
- rjbwork 10y ago
  I love indian food, and the vegetarian options are superb. That said, I still adore tandoori chicken. >.>
- Manishearth 10y ago
  This. I'm Indian origin. At home, we usually eat vegetarian food (not a religious thing, it just is). I don't miss non vegetarian food at all. But if I go out to eat I usually have non vegetarian food.
- fallinghawks 10y ago
  If I had to give up meat, south Indian would be a lifesaver. It's so flavorful, you come out feeling filled and sated, and yet your stomach doesn't have the heaviness you get from a steak dinner.
- toomanybeersies 10y ago
  It's a culinary difference in how meals are laid out in western cuisine. In the west, we tend to have a protein of some sort, which is the centerpiece of the dish, with supporting elements of carbs and veges. With Eastern food, they tend to have a carb, and then a curry or other mix of meat and veges to go with it.
- ivarrian 10y ago
  This is true. I'm an Indian , now living in Australia. I love meat! The only time I don't crave it is when I'm in India where the vegetarian food is incredibly tasty/satisfying doesn't consist of largely salads. I eat salads, not because I enjoy them but because I know its good for me.
- danans 10y ago
  Interestingly, a recent survey shows that despite having that highly refined vegetarian cuisine, Indians (especially South Indians) are nowhere near as vegetarian as is usually assumed: https://www.scoopwhoop.com/This-Survey-Found-Out-How-Many-Indians-Are-NonVegetarians-And-Which-State-Is-The-Least-Vegetarian/ https://www.scoopwhoop.com/This-Survey-Found-Out-How-Many-In...
- puranjay 10y ago
  My girlfriend is a vegetarian so I often end up eating vegetarian food when we go out. Agreed with your assertion. Here in India, vegetarian food is often as good, if not better than meat.
dangerlibrary 10y ago
Beyond Meat's ground beef and chicken strips are the closest I've had to "I had no idea" meat alternatives, but even though the flavor is pretty much spot-on, the texture is always just a little bit wrong. It's a very tricky problem, and I'm inclined to say that it's a better idea to sell things as "not meat, but delicious in their own right" instead. See, for example, Chipotle's sofritas - which are the most heavily seasoned / arguably most flavorful protein on the menu.
- frakkingcylons 10y ago
  Beyond Meat's ground beef really surprised me by how close it was to ground beef (texture and appearance are great, flavor needs work). The chicken strips somewhat less so, but still enjoyed it.
sevenless 10y ago
One potential problem: the heme that they're claiming gives it flavor comes from a genetically modified yeast. It's a GMO, and people who're vegan on principle often don't like that.
- NickM 10y ago
  > It's a GMO, and people who're vegan on principle often don't like that. That's okay! They're already vegan, so clearly they've already found a way to eat a meat-free diet that works for them. Carnivores are a much bigger market to chase than vegans. These new meat substitutes are targeted at converting more carnivores, not making existing vegans happier.
  - tomjen3 10y ago
    As a carnivore, don't try to make a fake steak, if I wanted a steak I would by one. Instead try to create food so delicious that I want to eat it, even if it happens to be vegan. You won't convince me with ethical arguments, you won't convince me with guilt, you won't convince me with health (I am sitting with a glass of whiskey right now), but you might convince me with taste.
- jonknee 10y ago
  > It's a GMO, and people who're vegan on principle often don't like that. I don't think they care about people who are vegan on principle. They want to sell to meat eaters.
- saynsedit 10y ago
  What does being "vegan on principle" mean here? What specific principles are you talking about? Some vegans do it because killing animals is morally bankrupt. Some vegans do it because raising livestock is unsustainable. There is not enough land on earth for everyone to have a meat diet. Some vegans do it because it's healthier. In general you can expect to ingest less toxins by eating lower on the food chain. I'm not sure what vegan principles are violated by GMOs. I don't know of anyone who is actually against GMOs, the debate is around labeling them not banning them. Personally I don't understand why someone wouldn't want to eat pesticide/herbicide drenched food. It's how we're going to feed the third world.
homero 10y ago
There's a good fungus based chicken nugget, do you know this one?
- Crazywater 10y ago
  Quorn? It's pretty close to chicken. But then again, chicken is also relatively easy to emulate since it doesn't have a lot of flavor or texture.
  - walrus01 10y ago
    Grocery store chicken in North America has no flavor or texture because of the speed it's "grown" in factory farms. Almost to the point where a fried chicken breast is like a mass of dense meat-like wonderbread. I'm no organic foods/free range/whatever zealot, but if you eat a chicken raised on a small farm in Pakistan or Indonesia it probably took 3x as long to grow to full size, ate a much more varied diet and also has SIGNIFICANTLY more flavor in the meat. Every time I travel outside North America to somewhere in the developing world I'm struck by how much the chicken actually tastes like chicken, whereas in the US you need to specifically search out the "special" expensive chicken to get something that tastes like chicken. See also: https://isotropic.org/papers/chicken.pdf https://isotropic.org/papers/chicken.pdf
    - nickpsecurity 10y ago
      That hilarious link reminded me of SCIgen: https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/archive/scigen/ https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/archive/scigen/
    - MustardTiger 10y ago
      >but if you eat a chicken raised on a small farm in Pakistan or Indonesia it probably took 3x as long to grow to full size, ate a much more varied diet and also has SIGNIFICANTLY more flavor in the meat. They have small farms and dual purpose chicken breeds in the US too. You don't even need the small farm, you can raise them yourself quite easily and cheaply.
- 10y ago
bradbeattie 10y ago
I'm in the same camp as you. Vegetarian since 1989, vegan since 1999. I can certainly say that the quality of fake meats has drastically improved in the past 10 years (see https://gardein.com/ https://gardein.com/, http://fieldroast.com/ http://fieldroast.com/, and http://beyondmeat.com/ http://beyondmeat.com/ as examples), but the stigma surrounding them persists. Short anecdote: There's a donut shop in my town that sold vegan and regular donuts in adjacent but separate displays. In some instances, the donuts on the regular side were also vegan, identical in every way save for the label. They found that they sold far better without the word "vegan" attached to them, and eventually stopped labelling them altogether, providing a side-menu to help vegans identify which are which. Point being, perception is surprisingly important when it comes to taste. > And in america, at least, where meat-eating is tied to masculinity and bacon is worshipped, that's a tough stigma to shake. I'd argue that it really doesn't matter how similar to meat these products get, if they're still seen as "fake". Even if delicious, people tend to gravitate towards "real". But hey, maybe they've found a market that wants this that I'm just not seeing.
- nightski 10y ago
  It's not just taste. These alternatives are loaded with carbs and just aren't practical for a low carb diet. This is coming from someone who eats a ton of fiber loaded vegetables. It's really hard to find a reasonable substitute for meat proteins that is as efficient and delicious as meat. Protein is not a huge portion of my diet, but it is very important.
  - bradbeattie 10y ago
    Seitan does a really good job of heavier texture, low carb, high protein (so long as you're not celiac).
  - dayvid 10y ago
    That's not true anymore. Beyond Meat has a Beast Burger with 7g carbs and 23g protein (vegan, no soy, gluten-free, no gmo).
    - 10y ago
chris_7 10y ago
As a pescetarian, I find meat alternatives weird. Tofu is good. Seitan is good. Eggs are good, etc. etc. etc. I've never wanted a "something that approximates meat", I want good plant-based food, not a processed frozen puck in a box. Similarly, I eat fish, but I'd never want to eat a "fish stick" - ick. That's where I categorize these meat alternatives.
- sundarurfriend 10y ago
  > but I'd never want to eat a "fish stick" - ick. Are you not a gay fish, then? (sorry!)
mindslight 10y ago
The way I see it, selling anything to meat eaters as a "meat equivalent" is setting it up for rejection. I'd bet that if you took even real meat and told people it was "fake", a good portion of them would reject it as somehow weird. The "burger" is just a convenient form factor. Each kind is really its own thing, with its own taste and mouthfeel. It needs to be tried and appreciated as such, or disappointment is inevitable.
- hiou 10y ago
  But does that change if the fake is $3 and the real one is $15? I think a lot of people in the front end of these startups trying to create almost identical to meat and dairy products are looking at that possibility in the not so far future as to why they will be successful. As opposed to something like a boca burger that is more intended to fit inside a hamburger bun as opposed to being exactly like meat. I say this as someone who hasn't eaten meat for well over a decade and a really close meat substitute sounds gross.
  - mindslight 10y ago
    At social situations (where pollination between meat eaters and vegetarians occurs), that would make the appeal even tougher. Eating meat then becomes a way of showing off financial status, even more than it already is ("we grilled up this real nice cut of blah blah"). I say this as a vegetarian, but I'm having a hard time seeing cost being a real advantage for imitation meat. It seems like more of a first world problem - if one cannot afford meat, they're better off spending resources on replacing its nutritional value rather than its taste.
- tremon 10y ago
  Totally agreed, on both points. I think selling "fake meat" to meat-eaters is missing the point (as they could just as easily eat the real thing), and selling "fake meat" to vegetarians is a weak offer (as it reduces them to imitating meat-based recipes). As an example of your second point, one of the more succesful alternatives in NL is Valess [1], which mostly comes in the "burger" form factor but does not try to sell itself as imitation meat. [1] https://www.frieslandcampina.com/en/brands/valess/ https://www.frieslandcampina.com/en/brands/valess/
fokinsean 10y ago
I'm a meat eater, and I think Morningstar is the shit. My favorite thing to whip up is the grillers prime, a fried egg, and sriracha.
- snuxoll 10y ago
  Amen to that. I like the spicy black bean patties, also topped with a fried egg, some jalapenos and sriracha :)
jlarocco 10y ago
I spent several years as a vegetarian, and then a few as a vegan, and I wouldn't/won't touch any of those products, either. I've tried them, and they're gross. They don't taste like or feel like meat. There are enough delicious vegetarian and vegan recipes that it makes very little sense to go vegetarian and then eat processed imitation meat. I found being vegan significantly easier when I just looked for recipes that happened to be vegan.
nicklo 10y ago
Do you not find it unethical to serve your in-laws fake meat without informing them? Wouldn't you be upset if your in-laws served you seitan that was actually chicken? *edit: I bring this up because many people do not react well to meat substitutes. Gluten and soy intolerance affects many people and serving soy or gluten-based meat substitutes without prior informed consent can induce adverse reactions. I do believe that veganism in morally superior to carnivorism, but that still doesn't grant the right to trick others into consuming meat substitutes without their informed consent.
- CocaKoala 10y ago
  If his inlaws have expressed a definite desire to not eat vegetables, then you're correct that it would be unethical. Most people don't do that. It seems reasonable to assume (until established otherwise) that his inlaws have not done that.
- adrusi 10y ago
  I'm sure the parent would be upset if secretly served chicken, not because they would feel defrauded, but because they were tricked intol violating their ethical principles. Secretly serving non-vegetarians vegetarian food is, technically, fraud, but it's not disrespecting their morality. That fraud might be slightly immoral (I don't think it is, but it's a topic for debate), but it's easily offset by the potential for convincing someone to become vegetarian.
  - ergothus 10y ago
    as the parent poster in question: * I think it was absolutely unethical of me. But it's one of those unethical things you do with in-laws, and falls within "white lies" territory as long as am I'm not endangering anyone's health nor causing them to violate moral principles. * It was done simply to serve food we'd all eat, it was not my goal nor intention to "convert" anyone. Personally, I don't try to convert people beyond example and offering my reasonings when socially appropriate. * I would consider tricking me into eating meat as worse than tricking someone to eat more non-meat than they would. That doesn't make what I did less of a trick.
  - 10y ago
wdewind 10y ago
You're talking mostly about the aesthetic part of fake meat, but there is another huge advantage over existing products which is health/environmental. Current vegan/vegetarian incarnations of fake meat (Boca, Morningstar etc.) are typically actually not that healthy in terms of protein/amino acid content and sort of end up being eating a cake made of grains. The ability to create, cheaply, a high protein, high calorie, amino acid packed product, regardless of whether or not it is aesthetically pleasing, could have massive impacts on our ability to support the human population of this planet, in a way that existing meat and vegetarian solutions do not.
- snuxoll 10y ago
  > Current vegan/vegetarian incarnations of fake meat (Boca, Morningstar etc.) are typically actually not that healthy in terms of protein/amino acid content and sort of end up being eating a cake made of grains. This is why I've stopped trying to find a meat substitute, they all fail in some way or another (they either don't taste right, don't have the right texture, or are far worse nutritionally than what they try to replace). I'm not a vegitarian, but I've found I prefer the Morningstar Spicy Black Bean Burger to a traditional beef patty - I like spicy foods and it has a nice texture I enjoy without feeling the need to compare it to beef. Also, the first ingredient is just plain black beans, there's some brown rice in to help as a binder but overall it has a fairly low amount of carbohydrates compared to other similar products (13g total, 4g of that is fiber).
  - wdewind 10y ago
    Right, which is why I'm more excited by "fake" meat vs meat alternatives. There are some trying to recreate literal meat (chemically indistinguishable) but without the animal. If you consider the stomach of a cow to simply be "input grass, output beef" it's obviously a vast oversimplification, but is sort of what is being aimed for, and where I see most of the potential in this market. Numbers I've seen have been close to 1/9 the caloric cost to create a calorie of "fake" meat as opposed to real meat (3:1 as opposed to 27:1). When it comes to Morningstar's black bean burger, we agree it's not an adequate alternative in terms of taste, but I'd argue it's also not an adequate replacement in terms of health. I mentioned most existing meat alternatives do not provide enough protein. Black beans are generally fine and normally thought of as high protein, but they actually aren't a great source protein since they do not have complete amino acid profiles.
snuxoll 10y ago
Not a vegetarian or vegan, nor will I ever be in all likelihood - but I have been trying to curb the amount of meat I eat purely due to the environmental impact it has. I have a box of beef burger patties in the freezer that never gets touched outside of family gatherings, when I decide I want a burger I grab my bag of Morningstar Spicy Black Bean patties and toss one on the frying pan. I've also gotten really good at preparing tofu over the years, and I've found all sorts of delicious ways to prepare it. I've found that substituting meat is an almost impossible task, I certainly haven't found anything that is as satisfying as a good steak. But replacing it with something I find enjoyable in a different way works really well, as long as you have an open mind and accept that it's not going to be an identical experience. (Personally, I prefer the black bean burgers for this reason. I absolutely adore spicy foods, I've been topping burgers with pepper jack and jalapenos since I was 13, having the patty itself with a good texture and a nice kick out of the box is wonderful)
- BigJono 10y ago
  Can you elaborate on the environmental impact? I've heard so many vegans say this but I've never seen a proper explanation of it. How can eating meat have a negative environmental impact when humans are natural omnivores? It seems to me like people are confusing eating meat with our modern agricultural processes. And if that's the case then the solution should be to improve said processes, not to stop eating meat.
  - deleted_soon 10y ago
    Cows produce a huge amount of methane, from their digestive system. That alone is enough to cause significant environmental impact, and if we stopped eating beef we would see a decrease in the amount of methane released.
    - snuxoll 10y ago
      Don't forget the large amount of water it takes to raise cattle.
  - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
downandout 10y ago
>Decent imitations of highly processed meat exist already I am a meat eater and I can tell you that, in my experience, this simply isn't the case. Your opinion is colored by the fact that you really, really, want it to be a decent imitation because you're a vegetarian. Every imitation meat product I have ever tasted has been immediately recognizable as such, and was almost inedible. Unfortunately, the idea of fake meat that people won't notice is, at least today, a vegetarian fantasy.
- nxzero 10y ago
  Just to be clear, you've done blind taste tests of all the products they mentioned within the recent past, right?
- athenot 10y ago
  I'm also an omnivore and have made the same observation. I think the larger issue is why do we stubbornly try to make one thing taste like another? I may be a meat-eater but I can fill my heart's content at a number of Indian vegetarian places, to the point where I don't realize I didn't eat meat. The meal as a whole is fully satiating and nourishing. In the same vein, I love tofu when it tastes like tofu. But when some try to make it ressemble meat, it simply becomes bad tofu. Beans are awesome and can be combined in so many ways. Bean burgers are just over-seasoned patties posing as meat. Maybe it's my French background showing but I prefer minimal processing, or processing that brings out the natural flavors of the ingredient, not trying to hide them.
  - downandout 10y ago
    >I think the larger issue is why do we stubbornly try to make one thing taste like another? In my opinion, it's because vegetarians know that their diet is an extreme departure from the norm, and anything they can do to feel more included in the mainstream, they will do. I have relatives that are vegetarians, and being vegetarian limits their social lives to some degree (I'm sure the impact is partially dependent on where you live; this comment is based on my observations only). For example, they can't eat at certain restaurants, and they tend to not bother trying to host dinners at their homes for people with normal diets (or worse, they do host, and guests don't come back after the first time). One of my vegetarian relatives has children, and it impacts their social lives as well - kids in households with mainstream diets usually aren't big fans of tofu and aren't going to be hanging out in vegetarian households as often. Everyone wants to feel normal, even when their lifestyle choices are far from it. This, in my opinion, is the driving force behind the quest for "vegemeat".
zanny 10y ago
> won't even try any of these, sight unseen I don't get this sentiment. I'm not close to vegetarian, but I go out of my way to try to eat less meat and when I'm not at the discretion of others (eating out, eating over at a friends house, etc) I prioritize my favorite meat-free foods, but nobody should be saying "its not meat? No way, never gonna try it, I am a blood thirsty carnivore". Even if you're like me and don't have the time, effort, or circumstance to cut meat out entirely, you should still at least try alternatives when they are presented to you.
- jean_claude 10y ago
  I get where the gp is coming from, to me texture is a big issue with foods that I can eat. I'm mostly vegetarian now, (less than half a kilogram of bison a week) but that last step to cutting out beef is difficult, because I just can't stand the texture/flavor of mushrooms, soy or tofu and other 'meat substitutes'.
- ergothus 10y ago
  I've noticed people tend to react defensively on certain issues: * Mention you are dieting, and someone will declare how good their triple chocolate fudge cake is. * Mention you're a vegetarian and they'll talk about how tasty meat is. * Say you can't eat a particular thing (lactose, gluten, sugar, etc) and they'll loudly declare how they don't share your restriction. I've even noticed the same tendencies in myself, so I think it's some sort of deeply wired social construct. It's not solely restricted to food but is quite common there.
  - lotharbot 10y ago
    I think this is partially a defense mechanism. Ask yourself -- how have people been hurt in the past that might make them want to react aggressively to these sorts of mentions? I think most people have, at some point in their lives, had someone treat them as morally inferior for their weight or their eating habits. So loudly extolling a positive perception of their experience is a way of creating a wall to preempt an attack on their character from a "superior" dieter/vegetarian/religiously-kosher/whatever type of person. Of course, this creates a vicious cycle. Just yesterday, someone offered to buy lunch for a friend of mine. He said it would have to be vegan, and the guy lost his temper. Like "how DARE you be one of those pushy types!" When the guy only said something because he was being offered food for himself to eat. Which perpetuates the cycle of distrust and mockery.
russdill 10y ago
To be fair, if you give someone and tell them it's a chicken nugget, you are setting the bar pretty low. People have come to expect pretty much any quality of meat and even texture in a chicken nugget.
- ergothus 10y ago
  Absolutely. I don't think we've gotten very close in matching "meat", but we're pretty close to the nugget/pink slime/McDonalds burger line.
Pxtl 10y ago
Honestly, at this point I'm satisfied with the approximations in terms of flavour. I've had fantastic maple-smoked bacon tempeh, seitan italian sausages, and soy burgers. I'm good. At this point the challenge is more flavour, astronomical preparation time for home-made versions thereof (DIY deep-fried veggie patties can taste excellent but they're an assload of work), and trying to reduce dairy/eggs and move more towards a vegan direction (daiya has some catching-up vs fakemeat).
michaelmior 10y ago
> Green peppers are nasty and food-destroying in my opinion, which immediately removes over half the vegetarian options out there I'm a flexitarian, but I'm pretty veggie heavy and have been mostly vegetarian for significant periods of time. I very rarely come across foods with green peppers.
- sehutson 10y ago
  I never noticed it until I finally committed to going fully vegetarian (and thus, stopped considering the non-veg options as possibilities if the veg option was unappealing...making unappealing vegetarian options a lot more noticeable). It doesn't happen everywhere, but I know what he/she is talking about. In sandwich shops and some places with tacos and wraps, it's not uncommon to find just one dish that's properly vegetarian - often some mix of peppers, onions, squash, etc. I've always been puzzled by it, considering they tend to be somewhat polarizing vegetables. Something like beans, potatoes, rice, even corn - those things are much more broadly appealing, filling, and probably cheaper, too. I also find that a lot of places/people don't know much about vegetarian cooking and they seem to think the only way to cure the blandness is to toss in peppers and onions.
  - hx87 10y ago
    > beans, potatoes, rice, even corn - those things are much more broadly appealing, filling Far more bland and full of carbs, too, so they may be more polarizing than you think.
CIPHERSTONE 10y ago
>I fed my in-laws a "turkey loaf" dinner for Thanksgiving for years without them realizing I was fed a Tofu-rkey one year when my sister and her husband were vegan. I don't think rioting occurred, but I seem to be suppressing all memory of that horror fest.
dclowd9901 10y ago
My wife is vegetarian, so more often than not, I'm eating that way. Boca and Morningstar taste awesome, but my problem is that I truly continue to feel quite hungry by foregoing meat in the meal. So even if these veggie options "behave" as they should, I think the bigger problem is that, for people like me, the lack of animal protein propagates as hunger, and I never feel fulfilled, and consequently am irritable.
- laurenbee 10y ago
  Are you eating enough? Faux meats tend to have fewer calories than the meats they are replacing. Boca burgers only have 70 calories each (according to Google... I never eat those). That is hardly anything!
  - dclowd9901 10y ago
    I keep a close eye on calories (used to be very overweight) as a rule, and comparing days I eat meat and days I don't, even when calories are the same, I end up much hungrier.
PerfectElement 10y ago
I've been vegan for over 10 years and I like where things are going. My favorite dishes don't contain mock meats (when I went vegan they didn't exist where I used to live, so I just got used to eating lots of legumes, whole grains and tubers), but it's fun to try these foods once in a while.
csours 10y ago
Someone fed me a veggie burger once, several years ago, without telling me it was a veggie burger. I insisted there was something wrong with it, but they said it was fine. They finally told me it was a veggie burger, and it all made sense. I would MUCH rather have had a good vegetarian dish that wasn't trying to be something else.
wcummings 10y ago
>And in america, at least, where meat-eating is tied to masculinity and bacon is worshipped, that's a tough stigma to shake. Being a picky eater is a childish trait, not sure how it became synonymous with "masculinity."
- MustardTiger 10y ago
  It didn't. Eating meat did. It has nothing to do with being picky.
  - wcummings 10y ago
    It does when you insist on eating meat in literally every single meal, as many people do.
discardorama 10y ago
> I've had chicken nuggets that meat eaters had no idea were fake, Because chicken nuggets are mystery meats to start with. They're usually made from meat slurry, with various fillers added, and shaped into that shape. A chicken breast, for example, has 43g of protein per 140g of weight; a nugget, on the other hand, has 3.1g of protein per 20g of weight.
galangalalgol 10y ago
My concern is health. Soy even fermented isn't that great. It is a trigger food for many as well. The amino profile is an issue too. Rice\pea is the closest I've found but lean poultry is the king of protein quality and until I see bodybuilders switching I'll stick with that. I know they also use whey which works for me but makes me put on fat. I have tried vegan and vegetarian, but after more than a month on each I never got out of the feeling fluish phase. Atkins did the same thing. So I just stick with vegetables, lean white meat, a few fruits, and a handful or two of whole grains and nuts a day. And some eggs, dietary cholesterol is not blood cholesterol.
spacehome 10y ago
> Most of my meat eating friends won't even try any of these, sight unseen. I don't want to speak for your friends, but I'd be unwilling to try any veggie burger, sight unseen, either, due to a long history of disappointment with people trying to get me to try veggie burgers that aren't tasty.
puranjay 10y ago
I really think food like this could have a massive market in India I'm Indian and lots of my friends are hesitant to eat meat for religious and/or animal rights reasons. We also don't have the stigma attached to vegetarianism as it is in America. There is no "masculinity = meat" culture here.
- sundarurfriend 10y ago
  Just as a n=1 anecdote, I'm (mostly) vegetarian, and this wouldn't really appeal to me. I might try it out of curiosity (just like I tried chicken and fish), but it isn't something my brain has learnt to crave, and in fact will probably trigger the same kind of mild nausea that non-vegetarian food currently does in me. I am curious to see how it works out in practice though.
codingmyway 10y ago
Convincing meat eaters to convert is going to be hard but just getting McDonalds to make it special on their menu could make a vast number give it a go and once they find it to be just as good or even better, and eventually cheaper, then a good portion of that resistance will have been overcome. McDonalds gets hit disproportionately by anti-capitalists and environmentalists and is always trying to improve their green credentials so I'm sure they'll be working on their own recipe.
molloy 10y ago
Have you tried any Gardein products? They're by far my favorite frozen mock meats.
codehotter 10y ago
I've also been a vegetarian for the last decade and change, and the idea of eating dead animals disgusts me, as does the taste of it. I find it very difficult to understand how meat eaters can manage to get it through their throat without throwing up, but to each their own. I sometimes get comments about how environmentally conscious I am or how ethical I am for being vegetarian, but I don't feel virtuous at all. It doesn't take any special willpower for me not to eat meat, I have zero craving for it. I hate vegetarian food that tries to replicate the taste and texture of meat. As other commenters have mentioned, there's a big market for just honest vegetarian cooking that does not try to imitate anything. The same goes for food as for people: just be yourself! Don't try to be something you're not.

wavefunction 10y ago

When I visit India and eat vegetarian food properly prepared by a culture that has refined vegetarian cuisine beyond "fake meat", I don't miss meat at all. Much of Western food is only expected to be an accompaniment to a meat dish, which is why you can't just cut meat out and eat the vegetable dishes you're used to when you're eating meat as well, imnsho.

arjie 10y ago
To present the other side, I lived in India a long time and vegetarian cuisine there always left me unsatisfied. If, for some reason, I had to eat a vegetarian meal (say I'm going to a Brahmin wedding), I'd just eat meat before I left for it because the alternative was to be unhappy.
ergothus 10y ago
I'm a huge fan of Indian food. (Because it's tasty, AND because they are one of the few foreign countries that uses the same definition of "vegetarian" that I do). That said, I actually have a fairly limited range there too: if you don't like yogurt, dill, bell peppers, cucumbers, or okra, a lot gets cut out. That's on me an my tastes, not the Indian food, but it's still a reality I have to deal with.
- delecti 10y ago
  > the same definition of "vegetarian" that I do Can you elaborate?
  - matt4077 10y ago
    Well, in Africa chicken isn't regarded as meat, to give one example from my own experience. In western countries, there's some ambiguity around eggs, fish, and possibly lard but only as far as vegetarians can't all agree on those either.
    - snuxoll 10y ago
      Even as a meat eater I don't eat fish unless I caught it myself. Commercial fishing has gotten out of control and I refuse to contribute to the practice, as well as the shocking frequency that fish are mislabeled.
      - ajmurmann 10y ago
        This is such a huge gripe for me. I love fish but hate the industry. In fact I wish we could have a 5 year moratorium on any fishing. Fishing is the best example for the tragedy of the commons.
        iamdave 10y ago
        There was an episode of Archer recently that was a crossover with the old Sealab cartoon (2021, the "spoof" version to be specific) and Captain Murphy was holding the world hostage with "nukes" (he didn't have any nukes) in demand for a moratorium on fishing. It wasn't the first time I had heard demands for such a pause, but it was definitely a position I wasn't expecting to see echoed in Archer. In some other cartoon as a wink and a nod to the parents, sure. But definitely not Archer.
wil421 10y ago
Not a vegetarian but I do go out with many Indian colleagues who are vegetarian and have family members or friends who dont eat meat. I do agree with the assumption that western vegetarians tend to want meat replacements. The biggest difference for me was seeing how a lot of Indian cuisine is actually unhealthy. Most everything is fried in oil or has so much clarified butter its unhealthy. The Indian diet (at least the people in my office) seems more unhealthy vs the western vegetarian diet and several people in my office have had heart attacks.
- amalag 10y ago
  Traditional Indian food is perfectly healthy. Fresh vegetables, grains, etc. Even clarified butter used to be prepared differently.
  - nostrebored 10y ago
    People still think that oil and butter are bad for you, despite the mountains of research that saturated fat is not unhealthy, and the new research regarding weight loss that the high fat Mediterranean diet is better than low fat diets. The only reasonable complaints re Indian food are high carbs and low amounts of high quality protein
- mycodebreaks 10y ago
  It is true for most of the restaurants serving different cuisines. Home-prepared Thai food is healthier than the food at Thai restaurants. Replace Thai with Chinese, Burmese, Vietnamese, Indian, and it would still hold true.
  - cthalupa 10y ago
    Having eaten a lot of home-prepared South Indian food, I'm not sure I really agree. Home cooked food has the ability to be healthier than restaurant prepared, but I don't know if there's enough data to really claim one way or the other - homecooked is not healthier just by virtue of being homecooked.
walrus01 10y ago
As much as I enjoy Indian vegetarian food, as a person that does eat meat, there are also a bewildering variety of dishes possible with the same spices and ingredients with meat added. One example is what you can find in Pakistani cuisine where the vast majority of the population is Muslim and does eat meat. There is of course a great deal of culinary overlap in the Punjab region, food is much older than the 1947 partition. If you ever visit Lahore I highly recommend trying the local restaurants.
- Manishearth 10y ago
  Oh, nonvegetarian food from the subcontinent can be amazing. Even from Hindu-majority areas -- Indian (or even Hindu) vegetarians are the minority (30%), just a generally affluent and vocal minority. Aside from beef, of course.
  - vshan 10y ago
    You need to ask your Keralite friends to prepare some beef.
    - Manishearth 10y ago
      Oh, not saying Indian beef cuisine sucks, saying beef-eating is not in the majority :)
  - hx87 10y ago
    Not to mention pork as well--it seems like in a lot of places with arid climates and Islamic influence, people don't eat pork even if there is no religious prohibition per se. That's why I like Greek, Goan and northwestern Chinese food--it has all the tastiness of middle eastern & central/south Asian food, but with my favorite meat.
rjbwork 10y ago
I love indian food, and the vegetarian options are superb. That said, I still adore tandoori chicken. >.>
Manishearth 10y ago
This. I'm Indian origin. At home, we usually eat vegetarian food (not a religious thing, it just is). I don't miss non vegetarian food at all. But if I go out to eat I usually have non vegetarian food.
fallinghawks 10y ago
If I had to give up meat, south Indian would be a lifesaver. It's so flavorful, you come out feeling filled and sated, and yet your stomach doesn't have the heaviness you get from a steak dinner.
toomanybeersies 10y ago
It's a culinary difference in how meals are laid out in western cuisine. In the west, we tend to have a protein of some sort, which is the centerpiece of the dish, with supporting elements of carbs and veges. With Eastern food, they tend to have a carb, and then a curry or other mix of meat and veges to go with it.
ivarrian 10y ago
This is true. I'm an Indian , now living in Australia. I love meat! The only time I don't crave it is when I'm in India where the vegetarian food is incredibly tasty/satisfying doesn't consist of largely salads. I eat salads, not because I enjoy them but because I know its good for me.
danans 10y ago
Interestingly, a recent survey shows that despite having that highly refined vegetarian cuisine, Indians (especially South Indians) are nowhere near as vegetarian as is usually assumed: https://www.scoopwhoop.com/This-Survey-Found-Out-How-Many-Indians-Are-NonVegetarians-And-Which-State-Is-The-Least-Vegetarian/ https://www.scoopwhoop.com/This-Survey-Found-Out-How-Many-In...
puranjay 10y ago
My girlfriend is a vegetarian so I often end up eating vegetarian food when we go out. Agreed with your assertion. Here in India, vegetarian food is often as good, if not better than meat.

dangerlibrary 10y ago

Beyond Meat's ground beef and chicken strips are the closest I've had to "I had no idea" meat alternatives, but even though the flavor is pretty much spot-on, the texture is always just a little bit wrong. It's a very tricky problem, and I'm inclined to say that it's a better idea to sell things as "not meat, but delicious in their own right" instead. See, for example, Chipotle's sofritas - which are the most heavily seasoned / arguably most flavorful protein on the menu.

frakkingcylons 10y ago
Beyond Meat's ground beef really surprised me by how close it was to ground beef (texture and appearance are great, flavor needs work). The chicken strips somewhat less so, but still enjoyed it.

sevenless 10y ago

One potential problem: the heme that they're claiming gives it flavor comes from a genetically modified yeast. It's a GMO, and people who're vegan on principle often don't like that.

NickM 10y ago
> It's a GMO, and people who're vegan on principle often don't like that. That's okay! They're already vegan, so clearly they've already found a way to eat a meat-free diet that works for them. Carnivores are a much bigger market to chase than vegans. These new meat substitutes are targeted at converting more carnivores, not making existing vegans happier.
- tomjen3 10y ago
  As a carnivore, don't try to make a fake steak, if I wanted a steak I would by one. Instead try to create food so delicious that I want to eat it, even if it happens to be vegan. You won't convince me with ethical arguments, you won't convince me with guilt, you won't convince me with health (I am sitting with a glass of whiskey right now), but you might convince me with taste.
jonknee 10y ago
> It's a GMO, and people who're vegan on principle often don't like that. I don't think they care about people who are vegan on principle. They want to sell to meat eaters.
saynsedit 10y ago
What does being "vegan on principle" mean here? What specific principles are you talking about? Some vegans do it because killing animals is morally bankrupt. Some vegans do it because raising livestock is unsustainable. There is not enough land on earth for everyone to have a meat diet. Some vegans do it because it's healthier. In general you can expect to ingest less toxins by eating lower on the food chain. I'm not sure what vegan principles are violated by GMOs. I don't know of anyone who is actually against GMOs, the debate is around labeling them not banning them. Personally I don't understand why someone wouldn't want to eat pesticide/herbicide drenched food. It's how we're going to feed the third world.

homero 10y ago

There's a good fungus based chicken nugget, do you know this one?

Crazywater 10y ago
Quorn? It's pretty close to chicken. But then again, chicken is also relatively easy to emulate since it doesn't have a lot of flavor or texture.
- walrus01 10y ago
  Grocery store chicken in North America has no flavor or texture because of the speed it's "grown" in factory farms. Almost to the point where a fried chicken breast is like a mass of dense meat-like wonderbread. I'm no organic foods/free range/whatever zealot, but if you eat a chicken raised on a small farm in Pakistan or Indonesia it probably took 3x as long to grow to full size, ate a much more varied diet and also has SIGNIFICANTLY more flavor in the meat. Every time I travel outside North America to somewhere in the developing world I'm struck by how much the chicken actually tastes like chicken, whereas in the US you need to specifically search out the "special" expensive chicken to get something that tastes like chicken. See also: https://isotropic.org/papers/chicken.pdf https://isotropic.org/papers/chicken.pdf
  - nickpsecurity 10y ago
    That hilarious link reminded me of SCIgen: https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/archive/scigen/ https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/archive/scigen/
  - MustardTiger 10y ago
    >but if you eat a chicken raised on a small farm in Pakistan or Indonesia it probably took 3x as long to grow to full size, ate a much more varied diet and also has SIGNIFICANTLY more flavor in the meat. They have small farms and dual purpose chicken breeds in the US too. You don't even need the small farm, you can raise them yourself quite easily and cheaply.
10y ago

bradbeattie 10y ago

I'm in the same camp as you. Vegetarian since 1989, vegan since 1999. I can certainly say that the quality of fake meats has drastically improved in the past 10 years (see https://gardein.com/ https://gardein.com/, http://fieldroast.com/ http://fieldroast.com/, and http://beyondmeat.com/ http://beyondmeat.com/ as examples), but the stigma surrounding them persists. Short anecdote: There's a donut shop in my town that sold vegan and regular donuts in adjacent but separate displays. In some instances, the donuts on the regular side were also vegan, identical in every way save for the label. They found that they sold far better without the word "vegan" attached to them, and eventually stopped labelling them altogether, providing a side-menu to help vegans identify which are which. Point being, perception is surprisingly important when it comes to taste. > And in america, at least, where meat-eating is tied to masculinity and bacon is worshipped, that's a tough stigma to shake. I'd argue that it really doesn't matter how similar to meat these products get, if they're still seen as "fake". Even if delicious, people tend to gravitate towards "real". But hey, maybe they've found a market that wants this that I'm just not seeing.

nightski 10y ago
It's not just taste. These alternatives are loaded with carbs and just aren't practical for a low carb diet. This is coming from someone who eats a ton of fiber loaded vegetables. It's really hard to find a reasonable substitute for meat proteins that is as efficient and delicious as meat. Protein is not a huge portion of my diet, but it is very important.
- bradbeattie 10y ago
  Seitan does a really good job of heavier texture, low carb, high protein (so long as you're not celiac).
- dayvid 10y ago
  That's not true anymore. Beyond Meat has a Beast Burger with 7g carbs and 23g protein (vegan, no soy, gluten-free, no gmo).
  - 10y ago

chris_7 10y ago

As a pescetarian, I find meat alternatives weird. Tofu is good. Seitan is good. Eggs are good, etc. etc. etc. I've never wanted a "something that approximates meat", I want good plant-based food, not a processed frozen puck in a box. Similarly, I eat fish, but I'd never want to eat a "fish stick" - ick. That's where I categorize these meat alternatives.

sundarurfriend 10y ago
> but I'd never want to eat a "fish stick" - ick. Are you not a gay fish, then? (sorry!)

mindslight 10y ago

The way I see it, selling anything to meat eaters as a "meat equivalent" is setting it up for rejection. I'd bet that if you took even real meat and told people it was "fake", a good portion of them would reject it as somehow weird. The "burger" is just a convenient form factor. Each kind is really its own thing, with its own taste and mouthfeel. It needs to be tried and appreciated as such, or disappointment is inevitable.

hiou 10y ago
But does that change if the fake is $3 and the real one is $15? I think a lot of people in the front end of these startups trying to create almost identical to meat and dairy products are looking at that possibility in the not so far future as to why they will be successful. As opposed to something like a boca burger that is more intended to fit inside a hamburger bun as opposed to being exactly like meat. I say this as someone who hasn't eaten meat for well over a decade and a really close meat substitute sounds gross.
- mindslight 10y ago
  At social situations (where pollination between meat eaters and vegetarians occurs), that would make the appeal even tougher. Eating meat then becomes a way of showing off financial status, even more than it already is ("we grilled up this real nice cut of blah blah"). I say this as a vegetarian, but I'm having a hard time seeing cost being a real advantage for imitation meat. It seems like more of a first world problem - if one cannot afford meat, they're better off spending resources on replacing its nutritional value rather than its taste.
tremon 10y ago
Totally agreed, on both points. I think selling "fake meat" to meat-eaters is missing the point (as they could just as easily eat the real thing), and selling "fake meat" to vegetarians is a weak offer (as it reduces them to imitating meat-based recipes). As an example of your second point, one of the more succesful alternatives in NL is Valess [1], which mostly comes in the "burger" form factor but does not try to sell itself as imitation meat. [1] https://www.frieslandcampina.com/en/brands/valess/ https://www.frieslandcampina.com/en/brands/valess/

fokinsean 10y ago

I'm a meat eater, and I think Morningstar is the shit. My favorite thing to whip up is the grillers prime, a fried egg, and sriracha.

snuxoll 10y ago
Amen to that. I like the spicy black bean patties, also topped with a fried egg, some jalapenos and sriracha :)

jlarocco 10y ago

I spent several years as a vegetarian, and then a few as a vegan, and I wouldn't/won't touch any of those products, either. I've tried them, and they're gross. They don't taste like or feel like meat. There are enough delicious vegetarian and vegan recipes that it makes very little sense to go vegetarian and then eat processed imitation meat. I found being vegan significantly easier when I just looked for recipes that happened to be vegan.

nicklo 10y ago

Do you not find it unethical to serve your in-laws fake meat without informing them? Wouldn't you be upset if your in-laws served you seitan that was actually chicken? *edit: I bring this up because many people do not react well to meat substitutes. Gluten and soy intolerance affects many people and serving soy or gluten-based meat substitutes without prior informed consent can induce adverse reactions. I do believe that veganism in morally superior to carnivorism, but that still doesn't grant the right to trick others into consuming meat substitutes without their informed consent.

CocaKoala 10y ago
If his inlaws have expressed a definite desire to not eat vegetables, then you're correct that it would be unethical. Most people don't do that. It seems reasonable to assume (until established otherwise) that his inlaws have not done that.
adrusi 10y ago
I'm sure the parent would be upset if secretly served chicken, not because they would feel defrauded, but because they were tricked intol violating their ethical principles. Secretly serving non-vegetarians vegetarian food is, technically, fraud, but it's not disrespecting their morality. That fraud might be slightly immoral (I don't think it is, but it's a topic for debate), but it's easily offset by the potential for convincing someone to become vegetarian.
- ergothus 10y ago
  as the parent poster in question: * I think it was absolutely unethical of me. But it's one of those unethical things you do with in-laws, and falls within "white lies" territory as long as am I'm not endangering anyone's health nor causing them to violate moral principles. * It was done simply to serve food we'd all eat, it was not my goal nor intention to "convert" anyone. Personally, I don't try to convert people beyond example and offering my reasonings when socially appropriate. * I would consider tricking me into eating meat as worse than tricking someone to eat more non-meat than they would. That doesn't make what I did less of a trick.
- 10y ago

wdewind 10y ago

You're talking mostly about the aesthetic part of fake meat, but there is another huge advantage over existing products which is health/environmental. Current vegan/vegetarian incarnations of fake meat (Boca, Morningstar etc.) are typically actually not that healthy in terms of protein/amino acid content and sort of end up being eating a cake made of grains. The ability to create, cheaply, a high protein, high calorie, amino acid packed product, regardless of whether or not it is aesthetically pleasing, could have massive impacts on our ability to support the human population of this planet, in a way that existing meat and vegetarian solutions do not.

snuxoll 10y ago
> Current vegan/vegetarian incarnations of fake meat (Boca, Morningstar etc.) are typically actually not that healthy in terms of protein/amino acid content and sort of end up being eating a cake made of grains. This is why I've stopped trying to find a meat substitute, they all fail in some way or another (they either don't taste right, don't have the right texture, or are far worse nutritionally than what they try to replace). I'm not a vegitarian, but I've found I prefer the Morningstar Spicy Black Bean Burger to a traditional beef patty - I like spicy foods and it has a nice texture I enjoy without feeling the need to compare it to beef. Also, the first ingredient is just plain black beans, there's some brown rice in to help as a binder but overall it has a fairly low amount of carbohydrates compared to other similar products (13g total, 4g of that is fiber).
- wdewind 10y ago
  Right, which is why I'm more excited by "fake" meat vs meat alternatives. There are some trying to recreate literal meat (chemically indistinguishable) but without the animal. If you consider the stomach of a cow to simply be "input grass, output beef" it's obviously a vast oversimplification, but is sort of what is being aimed for, and where I see most of the potential in this market. Numbers I've seen have been close to 1/9 the caloric cost to create a calorie of "fake" meat as opposed to real meat (3:1 as opposed to 27:1). When it comes to Morningstar's black bean burger, we agree it's not an adequate alternative in terms of taste, but I'd argue it's also not an adequate replacement in terms of health. I mentioned most existing meat alternatives do not provide enough protein. Black beans are generally fine and normally thought of as high protein, but they actually aren't a great source protein since they do not have complete amino acid profiles.

snuxoll 10y ago

Not a vegetarian or vegan, nor will I ever be in all likelihood - but I have been trying to curb the amount of meat I eat purely due to the environmental impact it has. I have a box of beef burger patties in the freezer that never gets touched outside of family gatherings, when I decide I want a burger I grab my bag of Morningstar Spicy Black Bean patties and toss one on the frying pan. I've also gotten really good at preparing tofu over the years, and I've found all sorts of delicious ways to prepare it. I've found that substituting meat is an almost impossible task, I certainly haven't found anything that is as satisfying as a good steak. But replacing it with something I find enjoyable in a different way works really well, as long as you have an open mind and accept that it's not going to be an identical experience. (Personally, I prefer the black bean burgers for this reason. I absolutely adore spicy foods, I've been topping burgers with pepper jack and jalapenos since I was 13, having the patty itself with a good texture and a nice kick out of the box is wonderful)

BigJono 10y ago
Can you elaborate on the environmental impact? I've heard so many vegans say this but I've never seen a proper explanation of it. How can eating meat have a negative environmental impact when humans are natural omnivores? It seems to me like people are confusing eating meat with our modern agricultural processes. And if that's the case then the solution should be to improve said processes, not to stop eating meat.
- deleted_soon 10y ago
  Cows produce a huge amount of methane, from their digestive system. That alone is enough to cause significant environmental impact, and if we stopped eating beef we would see a decrease in the amount of methane released.
  - snuxoll 10y ago
    Don't forget the large amount of water it takes to raise cattle.
- Broken_Hippo 10y ago

downandout 10y ago

>Decent imitations of highly processed meat exist already I am a meat eater and I can tell you that, in my experience, this simply isn't the case. Your opinion is colored by the fact that you really, really, want it to be a decent imitation because you're a vegetarian. Every imitation meat product I have ever tasted has been immediately recognizable as such, and was almost inedible. Unfortunately, the idea of fake meat that people won't notice is, at least today, a vegetarian fantasy.

nxzero 10y ago
Just to be clear, you've done blind taste tests of all the products they mentioned within the recent past, right?
athenot 10y ago
I'm also an omnivore and have made the same observation. I think the larger issue is why do we stubbornly try to make one thing taste like another? I may be a meat-eater but I can fill my heart's content at a number of Indian vegetarian places, to the point where I don't realize I didn't eat meat. The meal as a whole is fully satiating and nourishing. In the same vein, I love tofu when it tastes like tofu. But when some try to make it ressemble meat, it simply becomes bad tofu. Beans are awesome and can be combined in so many ways. Bean burgers are just over-seasoned patties posing as meat. Maybe it's my French background showing but I prefer minimal processing, or processing that brings out the natural flavors of the ingredient, not trying to hide them.
- downandout 10y ago
  >I think the larger issue is why do we stubbornly try to make one thing taste like another? In my opinion, it's because vegetarians know that their diet is an extreme departure from the norm, and anything they can do to feel more included in the mainstream, they will do. I have relatives that are vegetarians, and being vegetarian limits their social lives to some degree (I'm sure the impact is partially dependent on where you live; this comment is based on my observations only). For example, they can't eat at certain restaurants, and they tend to not bother trying to host dinners at their homes for people with normal diets (or worse, they do host, and guests don't come back after the first time). One of my vegetarian relatives has children, and it impacts their social lives as well - kids in households with mainstream diets usually aren't big fans of tofu and aren't going to be hanging out in vegetarian households as often. Everyone wants to feel normal, even when their lifestyle choices are far from it. This, in my opinion, is the driving force behind the quest for "vegemeat".

zanny 10y ago

> won't even try any of these, sight unseen I don't get this sentiment. I'm not close to vegetarian, but I go out of my way to try to eat less meat and when I'm not at the discretion of others (eating out, eating over at a friends house, etc) I prioritize my favorite meat-free foods, but nobody should be saying "its not meat? No way, never gonna try it, I am a blood thirsty carnivore". Even if you're like me and don't have the time, effort, or circumstance to cut meat out entirely, you should still at least try alternatives when they are presented to you.

jean_claude 10y ago
I get where the gp is coming from, to me texture is a big issue with foods that I can eat. I'm mostly vegetarian now, (less than half a kilogram of bison a week) but that last step to cutting out beef is difficult, because I just can't stand the texture/flavor of mushrooms, soy or tofu and other 'meat substitutes'.
ergothus 10y ago
I've noticed people tend to react defensively on certain issues: * Mention you are dieting, and someone will declare how good their triple chocolate fudge cake is. * Mention you're a vegetarian and they'll talk about how tasty meat is. * Say you can't eat a particular thing (lactose, gluten, sugar, etc) and they'll loudly declare how they don't share your restriction. I've even noticed the same tendencies in myself, so I think it's some sort of deeply wired social construct. It's not solely restricted to food but is quite common there.
- lotharbot 10y ago
  I think this is partially a defense mechanism. Ask yourself -- how have people been hurt in the past that might make them want to react aggressively to these sorts of mentions? I think most people have, at some point in their lives, had someone treat them as morally inferior for their weight or their eating habits. So loudly extolling a positive perception of their experience is a way of creating a wall to preempt an attack on their character from a "superior" dieter/vegetarian/religiously-kosher/whatever type of person. Of course, this creates a vicious cycle. Just yesterday, someone offered to buy lunch for a friend of mine. He said it would have to be vegan, and the guy lost his temper. Like "how DARE you be one of those pushy types!" When the guy only said something because he was being offered food for himself to eat. Which perpetuates the cycle of distrust and mockery.

russdill 10y ago

To be fair, if you give someone and tell them it's a chicken nugget, you are setting the bar pretty low. People have come to expect pretty much any quality of meat and even texture in a chicken nugget.

ergothus 10y ago
Absolutely. I don't think we've gotten very close in matching "meat", but we're pretty close to the nugget/pink slime/McDonalds burger line.

Pxtl 10y ago

Honestly, at this point I'm satisfied with the approximations in terms of flavour. I've had fantastic maple-smoked bacon tempeh, seitan italian sausages, and soy burgers. I'm good. At this point the challenge is more flavour, astronomical preparation time for home-made versions thereof (DIY deep-fried veggie patties can taste excellent but they're an assload of work), and trying to reduce dairy/eggs and move more towards a vegan direction (daiya has some catching-up vs fakemeat).

michaelmior 10y ago

> Green peppers are nasty and food-destroying in my opinion, which immediately removes over half the vegetarian options out there I'm a flexitarian, but I'm pretty veggie heavy and have been mostly vegetarian for significant periods of time. I very rarely come across foods with green peppers.

sehutson 10y ago
I never noticed it until I finally committed to going fully vegetarian (and thus, stopped considering the non-veg options as possibilities if the veg option was unappealing...making unappealing vegetarian options a lot more noticeable). It doesn't happen everywhere, but I know what he/she is talking about. In sandwich shops and some places with tacos and wraps, it's not uncommon to find just one dish that's properly vegetarian - often some mix of peppers, onions, squash, etc. I've always been puzzled by it, considering they tend to be somewhat polarizing vegetables. Something like beans, potatoes, rice, even corn - those things are much more broadly appealing, filling, and probably cheaper, too. I also find that a lot of places/people don't know much about vegetarian cooking and they seem to think the only way to cure the blandness is to toss in peppers and onions.
- hx87 10y ago
  > beans, potatoes, rice, even corn - those things are much more broadly appealing, filling Far more bland and full of carbs, too, so they may be more polarizing than you think.

CIPHERSTONE 10y ago

>I fed my in-laws a "turkey loaf" dinner for Thanksgiving for years without them realizing I was fed a Tofu-rkey one year when my sister and her husband were vegan. I don't think rioting occurred, but I seem to be suppressing all memory of that horror fest.

dclowd9901 10y ago

My wife is vegetarian, so more often than not, I'm eating that way. Boca and Morningstar taste awesome, but my problem is that I truly continue to feel quite hungry by foregoing meat in the meal. So even if these veggie options "behave" as they should, I think the bigger problem is that, for people like me, the lack of animal protein propagates as hunger, and I never feel fulfilled, and consequently am irritable.

laurenbee 10y ago
Are you eating enough? Faux meats tend to have fewer calories than the meats they are replacing. Boca burgers only have 70 calories each (according to Google... I never eat those). That is hardly anything!
- dclowd9901 10y ago
  I keep a close eye on calories (used to be very overweight) as a rule, and comparing days I eat meat and days I don't, even when calories are the same, I end up much hungrier.

PerfectElement 10y ago

I've been vegan for over 10 years and I like where things are going. My favorite dishes don't contain mock meats (when I went vegan they didn't exist where I used to live, so I just got used to eating lots of legumes, whole grains and tubers), but it's fun to try these foods once in a while.

csours 10y ago

Someone fed me a veggie burger once, several years ago, without telling me it was a veggie burger. I insisted there was something wrong with it, but they said it was fine. They finally told me it was a veggie burger, and it all made sense. I would MUCH rather have had a good vegetarian dish that wasn't trying to be something else.

wcummings 10y ago

>And in america, at least, where meat-eating is tied to masculinity and bacon is worshipped, that's a tough stigma to shake. Being a picky eater is a childish trait, not sure how it became synonymous with "masculinity."

MustardTiger 10y ago
It didn't. Eating meat did. It has nothing to do with being picky.
- wcummings 10y ago
  It does when you insist on eating meat in literally every single meal, as many people do.

discardorama 10y ago

> I've had chicken nuggets that meat eaters had no idea were fake, Because chicken nuggets are mystery meats to start with. They're usually made from meat slurry, with various fillers added, and shaped into that shape. A chicken breast, for example, has 43g of protein per 140g of weight; a nugget, on the other hand, has 3.1g of protein per 20g of weight.

galangalalgol 10y ago

My concern is health. Soy even fermented isn't that great. It is a trigger food for many as well. The amino profile is an issue too. Rice\pea is the closest I've found but lean poultry is the king of protein quality and until I see bodybuilders switching I'll stick with that. I know they also use whey which works for me but makes me put on fat. I have tried vegan and vegetarian, but after more than a month on each I never got out of the feeling fluish phase. Atkins did the same thing. So I just stick with vegetables, lean white meat, a few fruits, and a handful or two of whole grains and nuts a day. And some eggs, dietary cholesterol is not blood cholesterol.

spacehome 10y ago

> Most of my meat eating friends won't even try any of these, sight unseen. I don't want to speak for your friends, but I'd be unwilling to try any veggie burger, sight unseen, either, due to a long history of disappointment with people trying to get me to try veggie burgers that aren't tasty.

puranjay 10y ago

I really think food like this could have a massive market in India I'm Indian and lots of my friends are hesitant to eat meat for religious and/or animal rights reasons. We also don't have the stigma attached to vegetarianism as it is in America. There is no "masculinity = meat" culture here.

sundarurfriend 10y ago
Just as a n=1 anecdote, I'm (mostly) vegetarian, and this wouldn't really appeal to me. I might try it out of curiosity (just like I tried chicken and fish), but it isn't something my brain has learnt to crave, and in fact will probably trigger the same kind of mild nausea that non-vegetarian food currently does in me. I am curious to see how it works out in practice though.

codingmyway 10y ago

Convincing meat eaters to convert is going to be hard but just getting McDonalds to make it special on their menu could make a vast number give it a go and once they find it to be just as good or even better, and eventually cheaper, then a good portion of that resistance will have been overcome. McDonalds gets hit disproportionately by anti-capitalists and environmentalists and is always trying to improve their green credentials so I'm sure they'll be working on their own recipe.

molloy 10y ago

Have you tried any Gardein products? They're by far my favorite frozen mock meats.

codehotter 10y ago

I've also been a vegetarian for the last decade and change, and the idea of eating dead animals disgusts me, as does the taste of it. I find it very difficult to understand how meat eaters can manage to get it through their throat without throwing up, but to each their own. I sometimes get comments about how environmentally conscious I am or how ethical I am for being vegetarian, but I don't feel virtuous at all. It doesn't take any special willpower for me not to eat meat, I have zero craving for it. I hate vegetarian food that tries to replicate the taste and texture of meat. As other commenters have mentioned, there's a big market for just honest vegetarian cooking that does not try to imitate anything. The same goes for food as for people: just be yourself! Don't try to be something you're not.