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Hidden motors in cycling: Van den Dreissche banned for 6 years, titles stripped
- buro9 11y agoThis is a follow-up to discussions on "mechanical doping" in cycling. The first story I recall on this topic was in 2010: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2010/may/19/cycling-motors-mechanical-doping http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2010/may/19/cycling-motors-... This is now 6 years later, and we finally have the first pro cyclist banned based on being caught red-handed at an event with a motor in her bicycle. The type of motor she used was a Vivak, one of these: http://www.vivax-assist.com/en/produkte/vivax-assist-4-0/vivax-assist_4-0.php http://www.vivax-assist.com/en/produkte/vivax-assist-4-0/viv... though probably with a slightly modified button to make it more discreet.
- Apofis 11y agoHaha wow, for the Vivak, there's even a "Invisible Performance Package".
- Xylakant 11y ago"It was controlled by a Bluetooth switch installed underneath the handlebar tape." (in the article)
- shpx 11y agoThey should install Bluetooth sniffers before steep sections, it would be cool to see a little ping on the radio and then watch one of the racers magically pull ahead.
- chinathrow 11y agoOr Bluetooth jammers.
- DINKDINK 11y agohow would you filter out Bluetooth signals that are and aren't cheating signals?
- r00fus 11y agoBy cross-correlating with performance shifts (ie, the pulling ahead comment above). It's not a smoking gun, but it could be evidence perhaps to do more thoroughly audit that bike, for example.
- cmurf 11y agoThe rider's strategy may be merely maintaining relative positioning with the top riders, save energy, and use that small reserve for a better chance in a sprint finish or whatever. It's no way certain someone just starts going faster using one of these.
- methehack 11y agoWhile they're at it, they should make better humans.
- methehack 11y agoMy point here is that I have always found it so completely unfathomable that someone would spend so much time on an activity -- any activity -- and then cheat. Cheating is about looking better, not being better. At the same time, it robs others, equally devoted, of a fair basis of comparison. That it ever happens is amazing to me; yet, it happens all the time at the highest levels of competition. And it happens in academics too! Same shit, different day. And in politics. Ok, I'm stopping now before I give up on us as a species. Again.
- r00fus 11y agoPartially because we as society likely reward "results" better than "good effort" or "team playing". I'll leave it an open question whether the money involved in these activities is an influencer, or whether it's just rotten ol human nature (addictiveness to winning). Perhaps the reality is that cheating happens everywhere and only in the highest-stakes competitions do we notice and punish it?
- recursive 11y agoPro athletes aren't just motivated by an intrinsic desire to do the best they can. There is an external pressure to win. It's a real pressure with money behind it. In the case of cycling, teams are supported by sponsors out of their marketing budget. They would like to see their names in the press. (associated with a win obviously, not a cheating scandal)
- seanp2k2 11y agoApparently there may also be an aspect of gambling and/or mafia involvement in cyclocross as well: http://fittish.deadspin.com/professional-cyclist-gets-six-year-ban-for-using-an-ill-1773134563 http://fittish.deadspin.com/professional-cyclist-gets-six-ye...
- fahadkhan 11y agoCyclist also (legally) use wireless candance, speed, power, gear ratio, heart rate sensors, etc. Though they're normally ANT+ and not Bluetooth.
- joezydeco 11y agoCheaters will also find a loophole. Jammers and etc aren't worth talking about.
- matthewowen 11y agoBTLE is becoming increasingly popular (eg Polar has moved entirely to using it).
- j_s 11y agoBike motors were discussed fairly in-depth on HN 2 months ago; it seems to be this website's ticket to the front page: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11247598 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11247598
- VeejayRampay 11y agoWhat about Ryder Hesjedal's bike spinning on itself a few years back? Are we addressing that as well? It feels like the UCI is only going after easy pickings to prove a point and not doing its best to actually to fight mechanical cheating in fear of yet another scandal.
- coris47 11y agoFor some additional context / evidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynLMfzLTc8M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynLMfzLTc8M
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- nxzero 11y agoAppears at least in some models that if the pedals stop turning that the motor stops and the wheel spins normally; meaning to me, if true for most motors like this, seems like it's very hard to say that video is proof.
- guyzero 11y agoThese motors work by directly coupling to the pedal shaft in the bottom bracket. It's hard to tell but it seems pretty clear to me that the pedals on Hesjedal's bike are not turning when it lands. The angular momentum is just from the back wheel which is still spinning.
- celticninja 11y agoProbably a different type of motor. If you watch the video the back wheel slides along sideways for a while. This would stop all usual motion of the wheel and there is no way that it would maintain sufficient power to move the bike as it does even if there was some residual rotation.
- guyzero 11y ago
- KON_Air 11y agoIt makes me wonder if the engines would be this sophisticated if they weren't for cheating?
- maxerickson 11y agoEven rather casual cyclists will want something as light as possible and the in-frame hub drive arrangement has nice aesthetics.
- flurdy 11y agoAnd less likely to be stolen if parked. Though not sure if anyone would park a bike with such an engine.
- celticninja 11y agoYes but casual cyclists will not pay €2499 for the pleasure of doing so
- maxerickson 11y agoI didn't mean that they would, just that light weight and performance get a lot of consideration in cycling so it can be expected that a product category will address them even if it isn't aimed at pros.
- chinathrow 11y agoOf course they do - imagine ladies training with men only. Imagine folks at the age of 70 still wanting to ride with their sons etc.
- celticninja 11y agoIn those situations you don't need it to be hidden therefore you could get a bigger and better battery for the same price.
- alistairSH 11y ago
- larrydag 11y agoInfrared FLIR cameras are being used to help spot the cheaters. http://hackaday.com/2016/04/25/cyclists-use-tiny-motors-to-cheat/ http://hackaday.com/2016/04/25/cyclists-use-tiny-motors-to-c...
- huphtur 11y agoThat news article may not be entirely correct: https://www.eptc.co/watts-the-deal-with-motors/ https://www.eptc.co/watts-the-deal-with-motors/
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- rasz_pl 11y agoThis guy analysed a control image - image taken of a KNOWN bike with a vivax motor - and came to a conclusion there is no motor in that picture.
- mrob 11y agoWhat's more it claims that friction is the biggest source of losses in an electric motor, when it's actually a very minor source of losses. The biggest losses are from resistive heating. See section "Motor Efficiency" at: http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/products/reference/15297 http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/products/reference/15297
- jschwartzi 11y agoIf the motor was installed by a family friend, why would that person need to conceal the switch?
- buro9 11y agoAnd there was the race at the Koppenberg where she smashed everyone up the hill setting the Strava QOM, then lost lots of positions on the descents and technical parts, right until the next lap of the hill where she smashed up it again. Rinse repeat. It's not surprising the ban starts at a date earlier than when she was caught, the UCI strongly believe she was using the motor earlier.
- mgberlin 11y agoI'm not familiar with that race specifically, but it's not unheard of for a young rider to have massive strength, but little technical skill. The ability to descent and maneuver technically only comes with years in the saddle.
- mfoy_ 11y agoPresumably her competition wasn't significantly older...
- jschwartzi 11y agoThe article mentioned she's competing with people of similar age.
- Someone 11y agoThere is considerable variation in the ability to descent in the senior peloton, and I don't think it is correlated with age; some people just are better at the subtle work, such as recovering from a wheel slipping away, and some have more brute power. For example, the ability to bunny hop varies. http://www.cxmagazine.com/to-hop-or-not-bunny-hopping-cyclocross-barriers http://www.cxmagazine.com/to-hop-or-not-bunny-hopping-cycloc... claims that, in Sven Nijs's case, it is to do with his BMX experience. I couldn't find a good video from cycle-cross, but here is a nice example from road racing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPHnqI13vPk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPHnqI13vPk. Not everybody is as willing to take those risks and as good in recovering from (for him) minor mishaps as Vincenzo Nibali. Some cyclists are even known to take in a few bisons of water at tops of mountains because heavier bikes descend faster.
- OneOneOneOne 11y agoPart of me wonders why only 6 years. It doesn't seem like someone who would do this has much respect for the sport.
- celticninja 11y agoIf it put you out of the sport permanently then it could be assumed to be long enough.
- mgberlin 11y agoBecause six years for a 19 year old cyclist is essentially a lifetime ban. There is little to no chance of her returning to the sport after that kind of extended absence.
- poooogles 11y agoIt's enough to destroy her career which is all they really needed to do. To do it you have to have no respect at all. Sure EPO is awful, but an extra 200 watts for no extra work is a different level.
- soperj 11y agoIt's really not. At least it doesn't fuck her body up for the rest of her life. Because everyone was taking EPO, to compete you had to take EPO.
- 21 11y agoEven murder, in most countries, has a limit at around 20 years or so.
- jakelarkin 11y agoI dunno, it seems pretty harsh given that drug doping cases on the men's side only receive 2 to 4 years for a first offense [1] and given it's not something she could have gone out and done on her own - coach and mechanics must have been highly complicit and were probably driving the use of the cheat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cyclin...
- ars 11y agoThis is unrelated, but that has to be the most confusing way to write a price I've ever seen: 2.699,00 - a period for the thousands separator, and a decimal comma for the cents. I am aware of decimal commas - but a period for the thousands? I thought they used a space, or an apostrophe? 2'699,00 It must be tough writing code in Europe - computers only use decimal points, not decimal commas. And how do you make an international interface for money, when you never know how people will enter things?
- mynegation 11y agoYes, period for digit separator is a thing in many countries, including Russia, we were taught that way in school [1] It was a little bit inconvenient when I started programming, but nothing too major. Interface for money and many other things is a solved problem: we have locale settings for that in operating systems and software that respects them, works just fine. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_mark#Examples_of_use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_mark#Examples_of_use
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- chinathrow 11y agoThat's common. 18 hits in: http://www.thefinancials.com/Default.aspx?SubSectionID=curformat http://www.thefinancials.com/Default.aspx?SubSectionID=curfo... Writing code is not that tough in Europe - just use a proper i18n library.
- davidw 11y ago> Writing code is not that tough in Europe - just use a proper i18n library. Not even having to think about that initially is sure handy for US startups. You can get pretty big without worrying too much about other languages and all the confusion that entails.
- chinathrow 11y agoTrue - until you go north and need a french translation ;)
- atom-morgan 11y agoI don't see it in the article but I heard it recently so I guess I'll share. Lance Armstrong was on the Joe Rogan Experience and discussed doping within the sport. He said at one point in time, people would thread fishing line through a wine cork. They'd tie the line to the tail of a car and stick the cork in their mouth. As the car starts moving, the cork pulls against your teeth giving you just enough pull.
- wmeredith 11y agoThat's got to be the most French way of cheating I've ever heard.
- Gmo 11y agoThat's because you don't know about the early days of the Tour de France where the racers would drink wine along the way.
- exabrial 11y agoHaha what?? Did they have camel backs back then
- adaml_623 11y agoThey used glasses you barbarian ;-)
- soperj 11y agoWine skin. It's been around forever. We use them while skiing.
- Someone 11y agoThe early years were different, though. It was illegal to get any help. In one famous case, a rider got a 3 minute time penalty because he let a boy operate the bellows while he welded his own bike (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%A8ne_Christophe#1913_and_the_Tourmalet_incident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%A8ne_Christophe#1913_...) And aside: alcohol works! The correlation between "drinking champagne during a stage" and "winning the Tour de France" is surprisingly high, even in recent years.
- skybrian 11y agoAre there any competitions where this sort of motor assist is legal? It seems like that might be an interesting sport.
- tlrobinson 11y agohttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_sport https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_sport
- zyxley 11y agoYeah - if you allow any kind of motors as a standard part of the ruleset, you've basically got 'lightweight motorcycle racing'. You can get something like this already with trial riding or motocross races, where having a lightweight motorcycle is essential for handling in rough terrain and to take falls and jumps without breaking the suspension.
- grecy 11y agoMotorbike racing?
- tdaltonc 11y agoI think it would be interesting to have a league where these are legal, but you have to start the race with a dead battery and change it with resistive breaking. Mostly, I'd like that league to exist so that there would be an incentive for high-end innovation.
- geon 11y agoThe novel Free Radical by Shamus Young has a great description of something similar. http://www.shamusyoung.com/shocked/main.php?21 http://www.shamusyoung.com/shocked/main.php?21
- ddalex 11y agoFormula 1, Moto GP, karting, Nascar.
- deleted 11y ago
- davidw 11y agoYeah, but that's yesterday's news. Today had Marcel Kittel winning a snow-shortened stage in the Tour de Romandie and Sacha Modolo winning in the Tour of Turkey. Also, the guidebook for the upcoming Giro d'Italia has been published: http://static2.giroditalia.it/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Garibaldi-affiancate.pdf http://static2.giroditalia.it/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Gar... Looks to be a great race, although I think there's a risk that stages 19 and 20, which thread their way through the Alps on the French-Italian border will get cancelled or rerouted due to snow. The stage in Friuli looks like it could be particularly good, and the Dolomite stage is going to be awesome! On a personal level, watching the Giro will make me nostalgic, I'm sure. One stage, Modena-Asolo even goes over some of the roads that I used to ride on near Padova.
- waynecochran 11y agoI used to really like to follow cycling -- I have now concluded it is the dirtiest sport there is. They are the original dopers -- note that the list starts in the 1800's: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cyclin... e.g. 1930 "The acceptance of drug-taking in the Tour de France was so complete by 1930 that the rule book, distributed by Henri Desgrange, reminded riders that drugs would not be provided by the organizers." Now their "doping" the bikes.
- davidw 11y agoOh, bullshit. Look at how rotten soccer is from FIFA on down. Look at US sports where those guys were oozing steroids out there ears with basically no consequences. It's just that cycling is kind of a working man's sport in Europe and is sort of caught in a no-man's land: it's not wealthy enough to buy its way out of trouble like soccer and US sports, but does have enough money to attract cheaters. When the scandal linked below hit, all the cyclists got caught and punished (rightfully so!), but people in other sports? The judge has ordered the evidence destroyed! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operaci%C3%B3n_Puerto_doping_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operaci%C3%B3n_Puerto_doping_c... This was roughly the time period when the Spanish soccer team was running away with all kinds of international success. Cycling has surely had its share of problems, but it is also making a big effort to clean things up, with fairly draconian out of competition testing that would no way, no how be accepted by stars in other sports. See also: https://twitter.com/veloropa/status/725359244443262976 https://twitter.com/veloropa/status/725359244443262976 And like the response says, the only reason soccer doesn't have a bunch more is because they don't test well. If there's doping in cycling, you can bet that, at 10X (at least) the money in soccer, there's some serious doping going on there too.
- bodyloss 11y agoHow does the UCI enforce a fine? When you race do you have to sign a contract stating that you will pay any penalties, or can the fine be seen as "must be paid before competing again"?
- NicoJuicy 11y agoShe has no fine, only if she wants to cycle again, then she has to pay the fine. The UCI can't force it as she's not a member anymore and the UCI isn't a court
- mikestew 11y agoYou don't have to pay it, but you won't be racing again. As a former USA Cycling official, I'd occasionally fine riders for infractions (usually $20-50 payable to the youth rider fund). They didn't have to pay it, as I had no enforcement authority outside of bike races. However, if I saw you next week and you hadn't paid the fine, you won't be at the start line. I couldn't make you pay it, but I could prevent you from racing.
- giarc 11y ago>She also said that this bike was taken by accident by her helpers to the pit area. >She claimed that he had put a motor in unbeknownst to her What is with athletes and never admitting their mistakes. You were caught, I would have much more respect for someone if they just came out and said "Yes, I did it, I take full responsibility." Instead they come up with these ridiculous excuses that do nothing but continue to degrade their integrity.
- darkerside 11y agoMarion Jones is the only person I can think of that has actually done this. http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/05/jones.doping/index.html?eref=time_us http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/05/jones.doping/index.html?ere...
- markkat 11y agoThis is a lying, cheating, athlete in particular, so it's not surprising. Many athletes do have integrity and don't need to concoct such excuses.
- techdmn 11y agoGood point. Why aren't cheating athletes honest? Because honest athletes aren't cheating. But personally I've wondered the same thing. Ryan Braun's doping was hard to take, but not as bad as all the whinging he did when caught.
- falcolas 11y ago
- mirekrusin 11y agoWhy do they care about such a niche/illegal market, this idea is fantastic, imagine Boris bikes in London for example - they could recharge batteries when docked, it would be awesome to have this kind of engine in those tank-bikes. Extra points - please distribute heat on the handles because it's often cold. Thank you.
- shawabawa3 11y agoApparently they were trialling/planning to trial electric boris bikes in some parts of London in 2013. I've been googling and can't find any follow up to it though
- Symbiote 11y agoThe hire bikes in Copenhagen have electric motors. And ipads mounted on the handlebars. I don't know why, the system doesn't seem especially useful in a flat city.
- gus_massa 11y agoI guess the motors are expensive, and you can only put them in an expensive bike that is not left alone in the middle of the street. (Perhaps some day the thieves will usually carry a detector for motors ...)
- sksksk 11y agoA few cities have electric bike systems, particularly cities that are quite hilly, for example Madrid's BiciMAD[1] [1] https://www.accessiblemadrid.com/en/blog/bicimad-public-bike-rental-service-madrid https://www.accessiblemadrid.com/en/blog/bicimad-public-bike...
- seanp2k2 11y agoOn a totally unrelated to this post note, heated motorcycle grips are the best thing in the world, and if you're a rider even in the Bay Area, it's an incredible upgrade for anything with handlebars. You won't regret it, I promise.
- justinator 11y agoHas this specific bike in question been show to the public? I'm very much aware the technology exists where this can realistically be a problem, but I'm surprised that the actual smoking gun has not been shown.
- e40 11y ago“I was stood in the pit next to Femke’s entourage,” he said then. “I don’t quite know what it was, but something seemed a bit weird there. The whole team had walkie talkie radios, ear pieces and seemed pretty anxious and, overall, just a bit odd. I’d never seen that before and it kind of stuck in my head.” Very clear that everyone knew about it.
- Mikeb85 11y agoJust be like formula 1 - create passing zones where they can use the motors (I know it's DRS and not the motor, but that concept) remotely disable them otherwise. Regulate everything. Cycling needs a shake up, way too many scandals recently...
- dghughes 11y agoI've seen videos of this it's got to be one of the lowest things in a sport you could do. But I had to laugh out loud when I saw a video bikes crashing yet the back wheel was still spinning.
- adimitrov 11y ago> But I had to laugh out loud when I saw a video bikes crashing yet the back wheel was still spinning. Was that the old chestnut with Hesjedal's crash? Com on, that's just nonsense. The wheel was spinning after the crash from inertia — that is not only plausible, it's entirely expected, and the case in major crashes all the time. There's absolutely no reason to believe that this was caused by a motor. Besides most of these motors (including the one just found) spin the pedals. So if the pedals continued rotating after the crash, you'd have a point. The ones that propel the wheels directly with neodymium magnets cost like 50k a wheel and are probably a lot less common to begin with, if they're even being used at all.
- dghughes 11y agoI don't know who it was I'm not into cycling or its famous athletes I saw a few crashes on an Italian investigative TV show with French subtitles. I don't read or speak either language so I have no idea who they were talking about.
- altotrees 11y agoBeing a cycling fan and rider, and reading quite a bit about the various allegations and methods of cheating over the years have led to me becoming quite jaded — and not surprised in the least at this announcement. Thinking of all the ways riders have cheated, from Lance's blood-doping to the Festina Affair to Marco Pantani...it just seems like many of the icons of the sport are mired in cheating and doping scandals, and this story is further evidence that while testing may have evolved, so too have the methods of cheating. This leads me to wonder why cheating is so rampant in the sport? I used to think it was only due to lax testing policies, but now think it is more a product of the insane amount of stress the grueling courses put on a rider's body, along with the likelihood that anyone in this very individual sport is probably more competitive than most other people by nature. It just disheartens me as a fan. I truly wonder sometimes if the testing and oversight can ever catch up with all the cheating. A part of me wants to think yes...but stories like this continue to make me think otherwise.
- tmptmp 11y ago>>This leads me to wonder why cheating is so rampant in the sport? May be one of the major reasons is money involved. Cheating is one side the other is fixing: with aim to get more and quick money. In first case, i.e. of cheating, you aim for money by becoming famous and then grab advert contracts. In the other case, you get direct money to lose. Money and advertisement are destroying many a sports. Sadly, it seems to go worse.
- ww520 11y agoIt's probably money. Millions of money.
- Bootvis 11y agoSmall note to dang about the title: here and in the original title is wrong. The name is 'Van den Driessche' so with the i and e switched.
- fiftyacorn 11y agoDid anyone listen too the Telegraph Cycling Podcast - they were talking about respected journalists being convinced some of the big names have been using motors. They expect any revelations to come before the tour of italy or france - as is normal for big cycling stories
- SkyMarshal 11y agoWhat's interesting to me is that these folks, from Lance to moto-users, think there's a reasonable chance they won't get caught cheating at one of the most observed, recorded, scrutinized events in the world. They're playing a delicate game of signaling and information theory. Either they're right and the ones who were actually caught were only the tip of the iceberg, or they're making what should be a blatantly obvious miscalculation of the odds of getting caught. Not sure which yet.