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Driving Is Losing Its Allure for More Americans

120 points by bootload 11y ago

ronnier 11y ago
Why I don't like driving: 1) We are preyed on by police as a source of revenue via traffic tickets. 2) Parking is increasingly becoming more and more difficult.
- FanaHOVA 11y ago
  Agree. I feel like the cost of Ubers need to go down a bit further to make cars go for good. Stuff like grocery shopping, quick errands, etc would add up quickly with $10 for each trip (considering the minimum $5 fare, let alone higher costs)
  - asabjorn 11y ago
    If you consider the cost of a car loan, insurance, gas and car maintenance your car might not look as cheap anymore. As a personal anecdote I now only drive once every two weeks here in SF, mostly for weekend trips, and my car is such an expensive luxury that if I didn't already own it from the days I drove more I would probably just always zipcar or use Uber.
  - Animats 11y ago
    Yes, if only serfs weren't so expensive.
    - Spooky23 11y ago
      Great business idea -- Perhaps we could have refugees drive us around for a beer and Taco Bell gift cards!
    - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
      Self driving serfs are around the corner. It's not slavery if it's not human, right?
      - johansch 11y ago
        What will they call that variety of Uber? UberAuto? UberMatic? UberBot?
      - zo1 11y ago
        Well, if the prevailing anti-progress narrative is to be believed and expanded to even higher cliche-levels: Yes, it is slavery because only the rich will own the self-driving serfs and the slaves will have to pay for it anyways.
        seanmcdirmid 11y ago
        Self driving cars will make a big splash in the car for hire industry first. Then it just leads to cheaper taxis, uber so and deliveries.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  Over the last 20 years I've driven about 300k miles and have gotten precisely 1 (one) ticket, which I totally deserved.
  - tdfx 11y ago
    If you're insinuating that following the speed limit and maintaining your vehicle are enough to prevent police harassment, I've got some reading material for you.
    - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
      I'm also white, which helps.
- commandar 11y ago
  Tickets aren't a huge concern for me living in a state that has fairly strong anti-speedtrapping laws, but the absolute thing that has pushed me to driving less on a daily basis are other drivers. I drive a low slung sports car, so it's clearly not the act of driving itself that I hate: it's dealing with nearly being hit by inattentive drivers that are more focused on their cell phones than the road on a regular basis. It's people riding at 30 MPH the entire length of an onramp and then being surprised they can't merge with traffic traveling at 70+. It's the fact that the two mile commute to my office that takes five minutes most hours of the day will turn into a fifteen to twenty minute commute at peak hours. It's a lot of stress and unnecessary risk when there are better things I could be doing with my time. I love driving when it's hopping in the car and going to carve up some mountain back roads. I loathe it when it's standing between me and just getting daily living done.
- akgerber 11y ago
  Parking is massively subsidized in the United States (read 750 pages about it! http://www.amazon.com/High-Cost-Parking-Updated-Edition/dp/193236496X http://www.amazon.com/High-Cost-Parking-Updated-Edition/dp/1...) and drivers only get tickets because they habitually violate tons of laws (I've never gotten a ticket in my 12 years of licensure).
  - csours 11y ago
    > drivers only get tickets because they habitually violate tons of laws This is hyperbole at best. Speed traps are real. Driving while black is real in many places If you said: Most tickets are issued to drivers that habitually break laws, that would be defensible.
  - omegaham 11y ago
    I've gotten one. One was enough. At this point, I accelerate up to the speed limit and stick the car into cruise control unless forced to change my speed. Haven't gotten a ticket since.
    - ascagnel_ 11y ago
      Where do you live? In the NY metro area, once you leave the city itself, generally the speed limit is the absolute slowest speed you can travel safely before traffic will overwhelm you. In a 65MPH zone, 75-80MPH is generally the speed of travel; anyone traveling slower than that may become a hazard as drivers change lanes to pass them.
      - omegaham 11y ago
        Just outside Portland. Generally, I sit in the right lane and cruise along. I don't sit in the passing lane, and I keep my distance from other cars (which is easy, because they're usually going faster than me). If I can, I sit 200 yards behind a tractor trailer and cruise at their speed. I'm in no hurry. On residential roads, I give zero fucks about who's behind me. I'm going the speed limit, so they are too. They won't be paying my speeding ticket, so I couldn't care less. I do know that this strategy can be unsafe, though - when I was in the Marine Corps, I had to drive into San Diego to pick up Marines from Balboa in a government van. It had a GPS that would go off if you went above the speed limit at any point, meaning that your command would get a nastygram if you went 2 miles an hour over the speed limit. I went 5 miles under the speed limit at all points, and it was hilariously unsafe. People were mad. Yet again, though, they weren't going to pay the half salary and reduced rank that I would've gotten from getting busted down, and they definitely wouldn't have been doing restriction time with me. So fuck 'em.
kirklove 11y ago
Can understand this sentiment in younger people. As someone in his mid-40s, even living in New York City, I just picked up a car (after 8 years of not having one) and have been enjoying driving it so much. It's just something I grew up with and love to do as an activity.
- trentmb 11y ago
  I suppose it depends on the driving. Earlier this morning I was cruising some empty county roads, windows down enjoying the (relatively) warm weather and sunshine, blasting some Chris Thile: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8I07VIxyQM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8I07VIxyQM. If I was stuck in the stop & go city traffic where having my windows down meant getting a face full of exhaust, I'd hate it to.
robertcorey 11y ago
This article was really eye opening for me http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-commuting/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-c... . I just started my first post college job and I made sure to move within biking distance of my work.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  That blog has a ton of good stuff on it, even if plenty of it will sound strange to new readers at first. I'm not on board with some of his psychological trickery (namecalling people that don't follow his belief system for instance) but that doesn't change the fact that if you're young and making good money that this blog pretty much guarantees you're going to be set by the time you reach your forties if not sooner. Highly recommended.
  - miseg 11y ago
    Jacques, what's your impression of where he puts his wealth (stock exchange). I'm in Ireland, and ETF index fund gains are taxed at ~40% each seven years, outside of your retirement fund. It seems like other avenues are more viable here in Ireland for wealth building before your retirement years, like running a business or maybe property ownership.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      The advice given is very US centric, you'd do well to research your specific options and figure out what is best for you rather than to adopt his strategies without modification, it is more about the principle than about the letter of what's written there. In NL we have (with respect to any kind of capital gains on private holdings) an incredibly fortuitous situation (no tax paid at all beyond a 1% per annum fictuous income, so that 1% of the value of your holdings gets added to your income which is then taxed at the normal rate). In Ireland the index fund route may not be an option, but there may be other alternatives (such as direct real estate investments) that have a similar risk/return ration but a better tax picture. Your best advisor with stuff like this would be a local tax attorney.
human_breather 11y ago
Driving is amazing. I can travel further faster, making it easier to see friends. I can travel with more stuff making grocery shopping faster and easier. I can store things in my car which saves me worry and time. Driving can even be fun! I'd hate driving if I had to live in the middle of a dense city though. Biking and walking are also amazing. It's healthy, and can be quite social. I can walk without having to worry about finding parking. I don't need to worry about keys, license, etc. It's simply impossible to walk/bike everywhere though in the majority of the country.
- simplyinfinity 11y ago
  If you live in a city where everything you need is 1-2 blocks away and you have good public transport, Why would you need a car that sits idle 95% of the time? Just because you don't have to carry a bag ?
  - reasonality 11y ago
    If you live in a city, then you have far bigger problems. It's no way to live.
    - jrock08 11y ago
      If you live in a suburb you have far bigger problems. It's no way to live. (see, I can say the same low quality thing you did and replace city with suburb) Living in a large city has many huge benefits. Density of people leads to diversity and density in entertainment and food. Density means that you will find large groups of people that engage in the same esoteric hobbies.
  - xrcltr 11y ago
    It is so much nicer living outside a city compared to living in one.
    - dllthomas 11y ago
      That depends a lot on the city and situation.
human_breather 11y ago
Driving is amazing. I can travel further faster, making it easier to see friends. I can travel with more stuff making grocery shopping faster and easier. I can store things in my car which saves me worry and time. Driving can even be fun! I'd hate driving if I had to live in the middle of a dense city though. Biking and walking are also amazing. It's healthy, and can be quite social. I can walk without having to worry about finding parking. I don't need to worry about keys, license, etc. It's simply impossible to walk/bike everywhere though in the majority of the country.
hanniabu 11y ago
I love driving, even when there's traffic. I have XM radio and this is really my only/easiest way of discovering new music so I see longer rides as a benefit. Get to just relax, listen to good tunes, and get some thoughts straight. However, I can see driving as being an inconvenience to many due to things such as ticketing/insurance, parking issues, traffic for those that don't allot themselves enough time to commute, car maintenance, and the fact that our infrastructure is crumbling and nobody really enjoys diving into a pothole at 30+ mph. I know I'm associating owning a car with the enjoyment of driving a car, but I do believe they go hand in hand for many.
simplyinfinity 11y ago
The next 20 years will be quite interesting to say the least. Electric cars + autonomous Cars + Uber = no need for people to own cars but pay a small fee. People will start to reason about this ... "Why own a car that does nothing all day why i can just lease one" I think things will go one of 2 ways: 1) people will lease their cars to other while they don't need them while at work and at home at night 2) people will lease cars from uber/tesla/apple/google..whoever And we will use those services for a lot less than what we are currently paying for a cab, and certainly a lot less than what would be the cost of owning the car.
- guelo 11y ago
  Not sure why this glorious future isn't happening today with microrentals startups like zipcar, peer to peer rentals like getaround/relayrides, ride hailing like uber/lyft, old-school car rental companies, and probably a bunch other business models I don't know about.
- dalke 11y ago
  1) Is there really a demand to lease out cars during the off hours? With personally rented cars, who is in charge of cleaning it up, or determining if the vehicle is sufficiently clean, or figuring out who did any damage? Or that the car is sufficiently maintained, the spare tire has air, etc.? 2) Will I be able to rent the car with baby seats (three seats please, for the triplets), ski racks, bike racks, etc. and how much extra will that cost? Will I have to load/unload the diapers, gym equipment, toolbox, sand for extra traction, first aid kit, etc. after each trip? And yes, I have kept sand in the back of my car, and used it during icy conditions to get out of a friend's driveway.
  - smileysteve 11y ago
    > With personally rented cars, who is in charge of cleaning it up, or determining if the vehicle is sufficiently clean, or figuring out who did any damage? With Zipcar, they clean it about once a week, the user is responsible for reporting any damage, dirt, low fuel, etc when they pick up the car (not dissimilar from renting a car).
mc32 11y ago
Driving was symbolic of freedom, getting away from supervision, so much that it became a rite of passage and every teenager wanted to be able to take a date out in a car. There were open roads, vast spaces to see, many low tech things to discover and to show someone else. Now with traffic congestion in addition to rising costs of ownership, insurance, etc. and many other options for taking dates out, access to cars isn't vital, what's more, it's no longer symbolic of freedom but rather symbolic of the establishment, consumerism, suburbia and oil, things out of vogue. And now there are other more modern avenues for exploration, entertainment and finding kindred spirits. To add one more thing, now access to cars does not require ownership. You have car-sharing services [citycarshare, zipcar] and you have ride-sharing platforms which make access to vehicles less of a binary choice of ownership/no ownership.
- fhdjdjdhdh 11y ago
  Freedom these days is a luxury for rich people. Thanks to increasingly prevalent toll roads and paid parking, you can have all the driving freedom you want if you're willing to pay. Now get back to work you spoiled lazy millenials. /s
- white-flame 11y ago
  Not having a car used to mean you couldn't see your friends, and couldn't do the things you wanted to when you wanted to. Finally getting a car basically opened up life.* Now with the internet in your pocket, you can socialize and experience new things at your convenience from wherever. (* = USA-centric. The country is huge and tends not to have good public transport except a few of the densest urban pockets. Even our big cities are massively inconvenient without a vehicle of your own.)
  - HappyTypist 11y ago
    The internet really isn't life. I think a combination of increased car ownership costs, car-sharing services, increased population living in denser areas, and ridesharing has helped.
- agumonkey 11y ago
Animats 11y ago
"Peak driving" was back in 2004.[1] [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/crash-the-decline-of-us-driving-in-6-charts/281528/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/crash-th... “The broad acre city, where every family will have at least an acre of land, is the inevitable municipality of the future . . . We live now in cities of the past, slaves of the machine and of traditional building. We cannot solve our living and transportation problems by burrowing under or climbing over, and why should we? We will spread out, and in so doing will transform our human habitation sites into those allowing beauty of design and landscaping, sanitation and fresh air, privacy and playgrounds, and a plot whereon to raise things.” -- Frank Lloyd Wright
- gregpilling 11y ago
  your linked article says at the end: "But it would also be silly to suggest the economy didn't play a role. Gas prices began their dizzying rise early in the decade, which discouraged driving. Real estate cooled off in 2006, which discouraged spending on expensive items like cars. It's not as if everything was peachy until the day Lehman imploded. That's why it's very hard to look at these charts and discern anything about the future. The degree to which Americans have taken their foot off the gas pedal in just a few years is pretty remarkable. "
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
AI_Overlord 11y ago
I keep seeing articles like this pop up here and there. My gut feeling tells me that someone is pushing an agenda. Even in NYC a car for me is really useful. I use it to take family to airport, pick them up from the airport, shopping at costco, lowes, homedepot, etc. A taxi cannot beat the convenience of owning one. But that is just my experience. Could this just be Uber trying to convince us to use their service? Maybe this is one of those submarine articles pg mentions in one of his articles?
- chjohasbrouck 11y ago
  Source: http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html
technofiend 11y ago
Relative to how it was in the 60's? (which predate me) I'm sure it has lost a great deal of its luster. The big car manufacturers were competing with each other to produce the biggest sleepers - cars with underrated horsepower both for competitive and insurance purposes - and they could be ordered from the dealer with very powerful engines. In my hometown in the 60s and 70s you had kids simply circling the park for hours to see, be seen and show off their cars. You had drag racing up and down straight lines of road the kids had marked off at exactly 1/4 mile. TV shows featured cars as major plot points or even characters. Think Grandpa's Dragula in The Munsters, My Mother The Car and even into the 80's with Kitt and Knight Rider. I think the modding and racing culture is still there, but it's moved on into pc building, make spaces and perhaps even open source contributions. There are other ways now to do something interesting and get your name out there than spinning a wrench. And gas prices and emission laws on the tail of the gas crises in the early 1970s certainly played its part in the death of car culture. Just my humble opinion of course.
- dexwiz 11y ago
  I think people who do OSS, and people who mod cars do it for very different reasons. The thrill of going fast and the thrill of solving a logic problem are very different.
- manigandham 11y ago
  > modding and racing culture is still there, but it's moved on into pc building, make spaces and perhaps even open source contributions. I don't think so. Cars and computers/programming are completely different interests. I'm into both but the enjoyment of cars isn't really matched by anything else and I can't see it being replaced. Neither would any of my friends who are into cars. There's still a big thriving car culture out there, it's just moved upscale a bit due to the other things you described like rising costs and reduction in time and space.
  - technofiend 11y ago
    I think it depends on where you grow up and what's valued in your area - but kids are very much influenced by their peers. There's still car culture - I wasn't arguing that there isn't - I was saying for your average high school kid in the little Texas town I'm talking about it doesn't have the same influence it once did. Of course I haven't surveyed the kids so I don't have anything beyond anecdotal data but I know the park is no longer encircled for hours by kids in cars every Sunday afternoon. Their interests lie elsewhere.
Spooky23 11y ago
I don't think driving is losing its allure, I think people are making less and cars are getting more and more expensive. $20k was the entry point for a decent car in the late 90s... Now it's north of $30k. Renting rides from Uber is a suckers bet. There's a reason why poor people, business travelers and drunks are the only people who took taxis pre über.
- JauntTrooper 11y ago
  > 20k was the entry point for a decent car in the late 90s... Now it's north of $30k. You can get a brand new Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Mazda 3, or Chevy Cruze - with lots of very nice features - for 15k to 19k.
  - Spooky23 11y ago
    MSRP on a civic was under $10k in the 90s, and you could get a midsize sedan like a Camry or Accord for $15k.
    - JauntTrooper 11y ago
      That doesn't seem so bad though, right? Just looked up the MSRPs: 2016 Civic Sedan: $18,640 1996 Civic Sedan: $10,350 So average increase has been 3.0% per year over the period (CAGR). Inflation over the same period has been 2.2%, so it's a somewhat more expensive in constant dollars than it was 20 years ago (~$2500) but also comes with much better features. There also are cheaper cars today than the Civic (i.e. 2016 Nissan Versa MSRP is $11,990, and you almost certainly negotiate down past MSRP).
      - brandon272 11y ago
        2015 Nissan Micra, 2015 Chevy Spark, 2015 Mitsubishi Mirage are all under $10K as well. Safer and arguably better equipped than a '96 Civic.
        deleted 11y ago
SCAQTony 11y ago
Interest or lack of interest in regards to driving is primarily regional. This cities adore the car: 1. Austin 2. Los Angeles 3. Daytona Beach 4. Detroit 5. Portland 6. Phoenix 7. Snoqualmie 8. Atlanta 9. Los Vegas https://www.yahoo.com/autos/bp/10-best-cities-automotive-enthusiasts-182243980.html https://www.yahoo.com/autos/bp/10-best-cities-automotive-ent...
- dota_fanatic 11y ago
  Methinks the author is out of touch. Austin suffers from too many cars on too few, small roads, so the traffic is atrocious during work hours. Their population is exploding and the infrastructure cannot keep up. The parking situation is bad, unless you can afford to just throw money down the drain. As a result, there's a large biking population, despite how dangerous it is biking on those crowded streets. There's a good attempt at bike lanes, but not good enough.
- abalashov 11y ago
  My wife and I live in Atlanta. We have three children (3, 4, and a newborn) and live in a 1200 sq. ft. 2 BR apartment downtown. We use our car maybe once a month, and mostly because our pediatrician's out in the suburbs. I won't deny that we're beneficiaries of Instacart, for as long as that's around, as there's no grocery store within reasonable walking distance. We have no plans to move out of the city, though it would be nice if there were 3+ BR options for people like us that weren't insanely expensive penthouses or niche luxury units at $3200/mo+[1]. We're not representative of the mainstream Atlanta consensus, but we're not the only ones like this. There's a palpable revitalisation of downtown going on that has attracted lots of young professionals. I certainly expect it to stick and grow. [1] Yes, I know that's the going rate for a rent-controlled 500 sq. ft. studio with leaking pipes in SF. Have the heart to make some provisions for Atlanta, where median rent is $1200 - $1400.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 11y ago
I was not to see the whole article because it is behind a paywall, but one thing that might affect the driving habits of the under 25 cohort is that people in general are waiting later to have children. Having children dramatically changes the calculus involved with driving a car. When I was single I really did not have to shop much, it was easy for me to walk or bike to school or work even in bad weather and I could choose a not so good place to live that was cheap and close to work cause I really did not spend too much time at home except for crashing at night. With children now, I have to buy a lot more supplies. To save money I often buy stuff in bulk. Also, I am more concerned about neighborhood safety and good schools. Now a place that meets my criteria at a price I can afford is likely to not be within walking or biking distance from work. Also, when I want to go somewhere in inclement weather, I find it more preferable for me to put my children in my dry climate controlled car, than to have to worry about if they are getting wet, cold, or hot. My point is not to talk about driving being good or bad but to point out that having children can be a huge confounding factor when looking driving trends and drawing conclusions about these trends without taking into account the larger demographic trends surrounding when people are having children is likes to be misleading.
- pnathan 11y ago
  This is a big deal, unfortunately. I am super onboard with the urbanization movement, but cost of a 3-4 bedroom living space is not cheap in an urban area. I really don't want to raise my kids in a suburb - my wife and I grew up in that environment and it was unpleasant. But we may be forced that direction just to afford to have enough space for 1-2 children. :-( edit to add some color commentary: I would mostly like to sell my car and not buy another one; I would like to use public transit everywhere; I would like to live in a high-density area with 6+ story residences. Many benefits accrue in these situations; I don't understand the pleasure or enjoyment of living outside of that kind of environment - having done so myself, the more urban the area, the better living it is.
  - keehun 11y ago
    Just curious, what did you and your wife find unpleasant about growing up in the suburbs? I grew up in a suburb and loved it very much.
raarts 11y ago
Interestingly enough, dutch media for a few years have been reporting a similar trend among young people in The Netherlands.
pcurve 11y ago
Car ownership is becoming less fun. Recent cars are: 1. More difficult to repair. 2. More prone to breakage due to complexity 3. Less fun to drive. Good luck finding stick shift. I'd hate to be high school student these days.
- jethro_tell 11y ago
  Mostly right, but, > More prone to breakage due to complexity Engines used to be good for 10 - 30k miles, now that's a service interval.
- omegaham 11y ago
  > 2. More prone to breakage due to complexity I agree with a lot of the newer features, but it's a fact that old luxury features are now standard, (and more reliable than the old luxury features) and the regular features are more reliable than ever. Transmissions last longer, brakes last longer, engines last longer, tires last longer. Hell, tire technology has gotten so good that you actually have to do something to get a flat. It used to be that you just got flats every now and then. Not anymore. Basically, if you want luxury features that will break at about the same rate as the luxury features on cars in the 80s, you can get them. If you want a really basic model car that doesn't have motorized doors and electrically controlled seats, you can get that, too. And it'll get fantastic gas mileage, and it won't kill you in a car crash, either. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g
- arpa 11y ago
  You are right, especially about #2.
zipwitch 11y ago
When the WSJ says "more Americans" does it actually mean that, or does it mean "more people who live in the US and make at least $100,000 annually"?
- ascagnel_ 11y ago
  They mean more Americans. For example, New Jersey has a number of smaller cities (Newark, Paterson, Passaic, Trenton, Camden, etc) in close proximity to major metro areas (NYC, Philadelphia) that suffered debilitating white flight a generation ago. These cities are still economically depressed and are mostly inhabited by non-whites and tend to have lower incomes. As much as the majority here seems to be extolling the virtues of urbanization, the real challenge are cities like this: what are currently barely-functional city cores that must be rehabilitated without substantially displacing current residents.
EGreg 11y ago
That's because more people are able to work from home, and cities have finally become more walkable, as more areas are built up. In the suburbs, driving is still big.
nyan4 11y ago
And it is about time! This crazy fuel-consumerism is simply unsustainable.
anexprogrammer 11y ago
Hardly surprising. Where's the appeal of driving when you spend so much more of your time stuck in nose-to-tail traffic jams and breathing fumes? The "open road" is either hundreds of miles away or something you ask your parents about. Insurance is becoming unaffordable for youngsters. Fuel is near £5 a gallon. People do most of their shopping online and the supermarket delivers, so there's no weekly need of the car like there once was. Twenty years ago you pretty much needed a car just for the weekly groceries. So one of the key motivators has gone. You're left transporting with toddler age children as one of the key motivators, so you can delay getting one until you're thinking about having a family. As we're having families later and later in life... A car is simply no longer something as desirable as it once was.
eximius 11y ago
I would never give up the autonomy that driving allows. It might be cheaper for me to do some public transit + Uber or something (seriously doubt it where I love), but it'd have to be basically free for me to accept being dependent on others so much.
jusben1369 11y ago
I think it's 3 things (I have teenagers about to get permits) 1) Parents don't let their kids drive or walk anywhere due to safety concerns (real or unfounded) So kids have built in chauffeurs and thus a lot less motivation to drive anywhere. 2) Uber 3) Work returning to city centers. Teenagers have parents driving them everywhere. They use Uber at college and then get a job in a city. I guess they could take on the expense and headache of car ownership but there's very little upside.
barney54 11y ago
If driving is losing its allure, then how are people getting around? The reason I wonder is that in some places like LA, public transit ridership is down, not up as you would expect. http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-ridership-slump-20160127-story.html http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-ridership-slum...
- ascagnel_ 11y ago
  Uber, Lyft, and other ride-sharing services are one option. The other thing to look at would be unemployment numbers (a sudden spike in new unemployment claims or a trough in total unemployment enrollment could correlate to a drop in commuting).
ryandrake 11y ago
I don't see driving going away for me any time soon, for the following reasons: 1. I live 50 miles from work and 10 miles from my nearest close friend. 2. House is within bicycling distance to a single train station, but the train doesn't go anywhere useful. You basically need auto transportation once you get off it, which makes it pointless. 3. Kid who will be in school soon, and is too far from the nearest elementary school to walk. 4. Hobbies (e.g. wood working) that often require me to haul large heavy items from stores miles away. 5. Generally we like to go out and do stuff. Whether it's across town or across the state, there's really only one option: You have to drive. People don't realize how big the USA is, and how far things are apart. Unless you're in a dense urban environment ($$$) you're kind of stuck needing to drive.
- stevesearer 11y ago
  I agree. We just drove up to Oakland from Santa Barbara for the weekend where the only other options of getting there are train, plane, and possibly bus (never looked into it). I'd love to take the train because I love being a passenger and think they are fun, but it is significantly more expensive with multiple people and it takes 8 hours where driving takes about 5. Plus once we get there, it is nice to have a way to get around.
- mrtron 11y ago
  1. You could gain a few hours a day of leisure with an autonomous car. 2. Sounds like you won't use that train in this scenario. 3. I am sure someone will figure out safe autonomous kids->school delivery. 4. Perfect case for hitting the 'large truck' button in an app. Or more likely, stores will have delivery well sorted out. 5. Longer term rentals seem like another thing that will get easily sorted out. You might always need longer distance transit, but it seems unlikely you will continue needing to drive.
  - ryandrake 11y ago
    Once the cost of a car (amortized over 10 years) + gas + maintenance + insurance > the cost to rent a car for all of my driving needs, I'm ditching the car. But it isn't anywhere close yet (and I have records for myself for 20 years).
rocky1138 11y ago
What Americans once called Driving is no longer really possible. Due to rules, traffic, and social pressure, you simply cannot let loose and have fun in a car anymore. What Americans do now is called Commuting, and that, of course, has zero allure. For some reason, we still call it Driving, but that should change since Commuting is much more accurate.
dopeboy 11y ago
Couple thoughts coming from a late 80s baby raised in the burbs: * Cars are a symbol of freedom. You don't have to ask mom or dad to drop you off at the movie theaters. You can actually do things after school with your friends rather than go straight home. You can blast music that expresses your counter cultural identity as loud as you want without anyone telling you to turn it down. * Cars are an expression of identity. If you're about status, you rock the Benz. If you're about strength, you have the raised pickup truck. If you're about speed, you have the Civic with VTEC turbo, NOS, and the loud exhaust. * Cars are fun. There is no better feeling than having your favorite music turned high, your windows down, and rapidly accelerating through traffic. The roar that you hear and feel from your car tops off the experience. I haven't been able to reproduce this rush on other vehicles like boats or bikes.
- mikeash 11y ago
  Interesting that all three of your examples involve anti-social behaviour. I have nothing against cars, but blasting loud music or a loud exhaust is a dick move.
- ascagnel_ 11y ago
  Also a late 80s baby from the burbs: * Cars are a shackle. I've seriously considered moving to within walking distance of the local train station, since I commute via train; even the slightly more expensive apartment would be greatly offset by the reduced need to fuel and maintain the car. * One person's expression of identity is another's nuisance. I lived on a street where people with loud exhausts would accelerate so they maximize the noise. It'd be a loud distraction, cause traffic problems, and wake people up at night. Buses had less of a noise impact. * Rapidly accelerating through traffic can be dangerous if other drivers aren't aware of you. Doubly so if you're weaving through traffic.
soylentcola 11y ago
For me it's not so much about "allure" as it is economics. I live with my girlfriend and she has a modest car that she's paid off. We both work downtown and live about 3 miles from work. We mostly ride to work together so we only pay for one parking pass and use one car's worth of fuel. When weather is nice I may ride my bike to work or ride the motorcycle I bought for shorter trips that don't require the car or highway driving. Either way, the bike cost maybe a third of what her car cost but neither of us is paying off a vehicle loan. I've considered getting a second car. Something used and under $10k. Maybe even under $8k. Basically I think about it those handful of times it's not convenient to share the car and I need to pay $10 to take a cab/Uber or rent something once a year for a longer trip while she needs the car. But I can never really justify it. As much as I'd like my own car, even a perfect balance (cheap/old enough to be affordable but no to much that maintenance makes up the difference) would cost way more than hiring or renting something for the times I'd use it.
ilaksh 11y ago
Credit is tighter and the economy is rough. I envision automated lightweight safe single-passenger vehicles and something like a Hyperloop for long distance. http://runvnc.github.io/tinyvillage/ http://runvnc.github.io/tinyvillage/
petsormeat 11y ago
I'm 50, and an American. I've never owned a car. I can attest to the stigma of not traveling via personal motor vehicle, and the senseless barriers we've erected to getting through one's daily life by means other than car. I'm cheered by these splashy blurbs, but I'm unconvinced they report a permanent trend: we still have a huge inventory of office park sprawl, strip mall wastelands, and residential "neighborhoods" with no sidewalks, with more being developed.
gadders 11y ago
I can understand people who live in cities not buying a car, but I know several people in their 30's who have not even learnt to drive. I find this strange to understand. I'd put driving up there as a skill most people should know, like swimming.
fulafel 11y ago
Interesting to see that neither in the article or in the 166 comments discussing everyone's personal feelings toward driving, nobody even mentions the environment or climate change, the ethics of unnecessary burning of fossil fuels. In Europe this aspect would come up pretty quickly. A kind of taboo?
theworstshill 11y ago
Money and congestion are to blame. The car still gives you incredible freedom and saves a lot of time.
EvanPlaice 11y ago
Cars used to be fun. Car companies used to encourage the enthusiast culture. Enthusiast culture has changed to mostly rich kids showing off the Beamer their parents bought them. very few actually do their own work. Nowadays, cars are more expensive. Insurance is mandatory. Owners are discouraged from doing their own maintenance. Commuting to work only gets worse over time. And, to add insult to injury, gas prices still suck despite oil prices being the lowest they have been in decades. All of the things that made car ownership fun for young guys is discouraged by manufacturers because they've shifted their profit models to depend heavily on long-term service/maintenance. If I move close to a city any time soon the first thing I plan to do is get rid of my car. at this point it's just an expensive burden.

120 points by bootload 11y ago

Why I don't like driving: 1) We are preyed on by police as a source of revenue via traffic tickets. 2) Parking is increasingly becoming more and more difficult.

FanaHOVA 11y ago
Agree. I feel like the cost of Ubers need to go down a bit further to make cars go for good. Stuff like grocery shopping, quick errands, etc would add up quickly with $10 for each trip (considering the minimum $5 fare, let alone higher costs)
- asabjorn 11y ago
  If you consider the cost of a car loan, insurance, gas and car maintenance your car might not look as cheap anymore. As a personal anecdote I now only drive once every two weeks here in SF, mostly for weekend trips, and my car is such an expensive luxury that if I didn't already own it from the days I drove more I would probably just always zipcar or use Uber.
- Animats 11y ago
  Yes, if only serfs weren't so expensive.
  - Spooky23 11y ago
    Great business idea -- Perhaps we could have refugees drive us around for a beer and Taco Bell gift cards!
  - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
    Self driving serfs are around the corner. It's not slavery if it's not human, right?
    - johansch 11y ago
      What will they call that variety of Uber? UberAuto? UberMatic? UberBot?
    - zo1 11y ago
      Well, if the prevailing anti-progress narrative is to be believed and expanded to even higher cliche-levels: Yes, it is slavery because only the rich will own the self-driving serfs and the slaves will have to pay for it anyways.
      - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
        Self driving cars will make a big splash in the car for hire industry first. Then it just leads to cheaper taxis, uber so and deliveries.
GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
Over the last 20 years I've driven about 300k miles and have gotten precisely 1 (one) ticket, which I totally deserved.
- tdfx 11y ago
  If you're insinuating that following the speed limit and maintaining your vehicle are enough to prevent police harassment, I've got some reading material for you.
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
    I'm also white, which helps.
commandar 11y ago
Tickets aren't a huge concern for me living in a state that has fairly strong anti-speedtrapping laws, but the absolute thing that has pushed me to driving less on a daily basis are other drivers. I drive a low slung sports car, so it's clearly not the act of driving itself that I hate: it's dealing with nearly being hit by inattentive drivers that are more focused on their cell phones than the road on a regular basis. It's people riding at 30 MPH the entire length of an onramp and then being surprised they can't merge with traffic traveling at 70+. It's the fact that the two mile commute to my office that takes five minutes most hours of the day will turn into a fifteen to twenty minute commute at peak hours. It's a lot of stress and unnecessary risk when there are better things I could be doing with my time. I love driving when it's hopping in the car and going to carve up some mountain back roads. I loathe it when it's standing between me and just getting daily living done.
akgerber 11y ago
Parking is massively subsidized in the United States (read 750 pages about it! http://www.amazon.com/High-Cost-Parking-Updated-Edition/dp/193236496X http://www.amazon.com/High-Cost-Parking-Updated-Edition/dp/1...) and drivers only get tickets because they habitually violate tons of laws (I've never gotten a ticket in my 12 years of licensure).
- csours 11y ago
  > drivers only get tickets because they habitually violate tons of laws This is hyperbole at best. Speed traps are real. Driving while black is real in many places If you said: Most tickets are issued to drivers that habitually break laws, that would be defensible.
- omegaham 11y ago
  I've gotten one. One was enough. At this point, I accelerate up to the speed limit and stick the car into cruise control unless forced to change my speed. Haven't gotten a ticket since.
  - ascagnel_ 11y ago
    Where do you live? In the NY metro area, once you leave the city itself, generally the speed limit is the absolute slowest speed you can travel safely before traffic will overwhelm you. In a 65MPH zone, 75-80MPH is generally the speed of travel; anyone traveling slower than that may become a hazard as drivers change lanes to pass them.
    - omegaham 11y ago
      Just outside Portland. Generally, I sit in the right lane and cruise along. I don't sit in the passing lane, and I keep my distance from other cars (which is easy, because they're usually going faster than me). If I can, I sit 200 yards behind a tractor trailer and cruise at their speed. I'm in no hurry. On residential roads, I give zero fucks about who's behind me. I'm going the speed limit, so they are too. They won't be paying my speeding ticket, so I couldn't care less. I do know that this strategy can be unsafe, though - when I was in the Marine Corps, I had to drive into San Diego to pick up Marines from Balboa in a government van. It had a GPS that would go off if you went above the speed limit at any point, meaning that your command would get a nastygram if you went 2 miles an hour over the speed limit. I went 5 miles under the speed limit at all points, and it was hilariously unsafe. People were mad. Yet again, though, they weren't going to pay the half salary and reduced rank that I would've gotten from getting busted down, and they definitely wouldn't have been doing restriction time with me. So fuck 'em.

kirklove 11y ago

Can understand this sentiment in younger people. As someone in his mid-40s, even living in New York City, I just picked up a car (after 8 years of not having one) and have been enjoying driving it so much. It's just something I grew up with and love to do as an activity.

trentmb 11y ago
I suppose it depends on the driving. Earlier this morning I was cruising some empty county roads, windows down enjoying the (relatively) warm weather and sunshine, blasting some Chris Thile: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8I07VIxyQM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8I07VIxyQM. If I was stuck in the stop & go city traffic where having my windows down meant getting a face full of exhaust, I'd hate it to.

robertcorey 11y ago

This article was really eye opening for me http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-commuting/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-c... . I just started my first post college job and I made sure to move within biking distance of my work.

jacquesm 11y ago
That blog has a ton of good stuff on it, even if plenty of it will sound strange to new readers at first. I'm not on board with some of his psychological trickery (namecalling people that don't follow his belief system for instance) but that doesn't change the fact that if you're young and making good money that this blog pretty much guarantees you're going to be set by the time you reach your forties if not sooner. Highly recommended.
- miseg 11y ago
  Jacques, what's your impression of where he puts his wealth (stock exchange). I'm in Ireland, and ETF index fund gains are taxed at ~40% each seven years, outside of your retirement fund. It seems like other avenues are more viable here in Ireland for wealth building before your retirement years, like running a business or maybe property ownership.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    The advice given is very US centric, you'd do well to research your specific options and figure out what is best for you rather than to adopt his strategies without modification, it is more about the principle than about the letter of what's written there. In NL we have (with respect to any kind of capital gains on private holdings) an incredibly fortuitous situation (no tax paid at all beyond a 1% per annum fictuous income, so that 1% of the value of your holdings gets added to your income which is then taxed at the normal rate). In Ireland the index fund route may not be an option, but there may be other alternatives (such as direct real estate investments) that have a similar risk/return ration but a better tax picture. Your best advisor with stuff like this would be a local tax attorney.

human_breather 11y ago

Driving is amazing. I can travel further faster, making it easier to see friends. I can travel with more stuff making grocery shopping faster and easier. I can store things in my car which saves me worry and time. Driving can even be fun! I'd hate driving if I had to live in the middle of a dense city though. Biking and walking are also amazing. It's healthy, and can be quite social. I can walk without having to worry about finding parking. I don't need to worry about keys, license, etc. It's simply impossible to walk/bike everywhere though in the majority of the country.

simplyinfinity 11y ago
If you live in a city where everything you need is 1-2 blocks away and you have good public transport, Why would you need a car that sits idle 95% of the time? Just because you don't have to carry a bag ?
- reasonality 11y ago
  If you live in a city, then you have far bigger problems. It's no way to live.
  - jrock08 11y ago
    If you live in a suburb you have far bigger problems. It's no way to live. (see, I can say the same low quality thing you did and replace city with suburb) Living in a large city has many huge benefits. Density of people leads to diversity and density in entertainment and food. Density means that you will find large groups of people that engage in the same esoteric hobbies.
- xrcltr 11y ago
  It is so much nicer living outside a city compared to living in one.
  - dllthomas 11y ago
    That depends a lot on the city and situation.

human_breather 11y ago

hanniabu 11y ago

I love driving, even when there's traffic. I have XM radio and this is really my only/easiest way of discovering new music so I see longer rides as a benefit. Get to just relax, listen to good tunes, and get some thoughts straight. However, I can see driving as being an inconvenience to many due to things such as ticketing/insurance, parking issues, traffic for those that don't allot themselves enough time to commute, car maintenance, and the fact that our infrastructure is crumbling and nobody really enjoys diving into a pothole at 30+ mph. I know I'm associating owning a car with the enjoyment of driving a car, but I do believe they go hand in hand for many.

simplyinfinity 11y ago

The next 20 years will be quite interesting to say the least. Electric cars + autonomous Cars + Uber = no need for people to own cars but pay a small fee. People will start to reason about this ... "Why own a car that does nothing all day why i can just lease one" I think things will go one of 2 ways: 1) people will lease their cars to other while they don't need them while at work and at home at night 2) people will lease cars from uber/tesla/apple/google..whoever And we will use those services for a lot less than what we are currently paying for a cab, and certainly a lot less than what would be the cost of owning the car.

guelo 11y ago
Not sure why this glorious future isn't happening today with microrentals startups like zipcar, peer to peer rentals like getaround/relayrides, ride hailing like uber/lyft, old-school car rental companies, and probably a bunch other business models I don't know about.
dalke 11y ago
1) Is there really a demand to lease out cars during the off hours? With personally rented cars, who is in charge of cleaning it up, or determining if the vehicle is sufficiently clean, or figuring out who did any damage? Or that the car is sufficiently maintained, the spare tire has air, etc.? 2) Will I be able to rent the car with baby seats (three seats please, for the triplets), ski racks, bike racks, etc. and how much extra will that cost? Will I have to load/unload the diapers, gym equipment, toolbox, sand for extra traction, first aid kit, etc. after each trip? And yes, I have kept sand in the back of my car, and used it during icy conditions to get out of a friend's driveway.
- smileysteve 11y ago
  > With personally rented cars, who is in charge of cleaning it up, or determining if the vehicle is sufficiently clean, or figuring out who did any damage? With Zipcar, they clean it about once a week, the user is responsible for reporting any damage, dirt, low fuel, etc when they pick up the car (not dissimilar from renting a car).

mc32 11y ago

Driving was symbolic of freedom, getting away from supervision, so much that it became a rite of passage and every teenager wanted to be able to take a date out in a car. There were open roads, vast spaces to see, many low tech things to discover and to show someone else. Now with traffic congestion in addition to rising costs of ownership, insurance, etc. and many other options for taking dates out, access to cars isn't vital, what's more, it's no longer symbolic of freedom but rather symbolic of the establishment, consumerism, suburbia and oil, things out of vogue. And now there are other more modern avenues for exploration, entertainment and finding kindred spirits. To add one more thing, now access to cars does not require ownership. You have car-sharing services [citycarshare, zipcar] and you have ride-sharing platforms which make access to vehicles less of a binary choice of ownership/no ownership.

fhdjdjdhdh 11y ago
Freedom these days is a luxury for rich people. Thanks to increasingly prevalent toll roads and paid parking, you can have all the driving freedom you want if you're willing to pay. Now get back to work you spoiled lazy millenials. /s
white-flame 11y ago
Not having a car used to mean you couldn't see your friends, and couldn't do the things you wanted to when you wanted to. Finally getting a car basically opened up life.* Now with the internet in your pocket, you can socialize and experience new things at your convenience from wherever. (* = USA-centric. The country is huge and tends not to have good public transport except a few of the densest urban pockets. Even our big cities are massively inconvenient without a vehicle of your own.)
- HappyTypist 11y ago
  The internet really isn't life. I think a combination of increased car ownership costs, car-sharing services, increased population living in denser areas, and ridesharing has helped.
agumonkey 11y ago

Animats 11y ago

"Peak driving" was back in 2004.[1] [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/crash-the-decline-of-us-driving-in-6-charts/281528/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/crash-th... “The broad acre city, where every family will have at least an acre of land, is the inevitable municipality of the future . . . We live now in cities of the past, slaves of the machine and of traditional building. We cannot solve our living and transportation problems by burrowing under or climbing over, and why should we? We will spread out, and in so doing will transform our human habitation sites into those allowing beauty of design and landscaping, sanitation and fresh air, privacy and playgrounds, and a plot whereon to raise things.” -- Frank Lloyd Wright

gregpilling 11y ago
your linked article says at the end: "But it would also be silly to suggest the economy didn't play a role. Gas prices began their dizzying rise early in the decade, which discouraged driving. Real estate cooled off in 2006, which discouraged spending on expensive items like cars. It's not as if everything was peachy until the day Lehman imploded. That's why it's very hard to look at these charts and discern anything about the future. The degree to which Americans have taken their foot off the gas pedal in just a few years is pretty remarkable. "
deleted 11y ago
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AI_Overlord 11y ago

I keep seeing articles like this pop up here and there. My gut feeling tells me that someone is pushing an agenda. Even in NYC a car for me is really useful. I use it to take family to airport, pick them up from the airport, shopping at costco, lowes, homedepot, etc. A taxi cannot beat the convenience of owning one. But that is just my experience. Could this just be Uber trying to convince us to use their service? Maybe this is one of those submarine articles pg mentions in one of his articles?

chjohasbrouck 11y ago
Source: http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html

technofiend 11y ago

Relative to how it was in the 60's? (which predate me) I'm sure it has lost a great deal of its luster. The big car manufacturers were competing with each other to produce the biggest sleepers - cars with underrated horsepower both for competitive and insurance purposes - and they could be ordered from the dealer with very powerful engines. In my hometown in the 60s and 70s you had kids simply circling the park for hours to see, be seen and show off their cars. You had drag racing up and down straight lines of road the kids had marked off at exactly 1/4 mile. TV shows featured cars as major plot points or even characters. Think Grandpa's Dragula in The Munsters, My Mother The Car and even into the 80's with Kitt and Knight Rider. I think the modding and racing culture is still there, but it's moved on into pc building, make spaces and perhaps even open source contributions. There are other ways now to do something interesting and get your name out there than spinning a wrench. And gas prices and emission laws on the tail of the gas crises in the early 1970s certainly played its part in the death of car culture. Just my humble opinion of course.

dexwiz 11y ago
I think people who do OSS, and people who mod cars do it for very different reasons. The thrill of going fast and the thrill of solving a logic problem are very different.
manigandham 11y ago
> modding and racing culture is still there, but it's moved on into pc building, make spaces and perhaps even open source contributions. I don't think so. Cars and computers/programming are completely different interests. I'm into both but the enjoyment of cars isn't really matched by anything else and I can't see it being replaced. Neither would any of my friends who are into cars. There's still a big thriving car culture out there, it's just moved upscale a bit due to the other things you described like rising costs and reduction in time and space.
- technofiend 11y ago
  I think it depends on where you grow up and what's valued in your area - but kids are very much influenced by their peers. There's still car culture - I wasn't arguing that there isn't - I was saying for your average high school kid in the little Texas town I'm talking about it doesn't have the same influence it once did. Of course I haven't surveyed the kids so I don't have anything beyond anecdotal data but I know the park is no longer encircled for hours by kids in cars every Sunday afternoon. Their interests lie elsewhere.

Spooky23 11y ago

I don't think driving is losing its allure, I think people are making less and cars are getting more and more expensive. $20k was the entry point for a decent car in the late 90s... Now it's north of $30k. Renting rides from Uber is a suckers bet. There's a reason why poor people, business travelers and drunks are the only people who took taxis pre über.

JauntTrooper 11y ago
> 20k was the entry point for a decent car in the late 90s... Now it's north of $30k. You can get a brand new Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Mazda 3, or Chevy Cruze - with lots of very nice features - for 15k to 19k.
- Spooky23 11y ago
  MSRP on a civic was under $10k in the 90s, and you could get a midsize sedan like a Camry or Accord for $15k.
  - JauntTrooper 11y ago
    That doesn't seem so bad though, right? Just looked up the MSRPs: 2016 Civic Sedan: $18,640 1996 Civic Sedan: $10,350 So average increase has been 3.0% per year over the period (CAGR). Inflation over the same period has been 2.2%, so it's a somewhat more expensive in constant dollars than it was 20 years ago (~$2500) but also comes with much better features. There also are cheaper cars today than the Civic (i.e. 2016 Nissan Versa MSRP is $11,990, and you almost certainly negotiate down past MSRP).
    - brandon272 11y ago
      2015 Nissan Micra, 2015 Chevy Spark, 2015 Mitsubishi Mirage are all under $10K as well. Safer and arguably better equipped than a '96 Civic.
      - deleted 11y ago

SCAQTony 11y ago

Interest or lack of interest in regards to driving is primarily regional. This cities adore the car: 1. Austin 2. Los Angeles 3. Daytona Beach 4. Detroit 5. Portland 6. Phoenix 7. Snoqualmie 8. Atlanta 9. Los Vegas https://www.yahoo.com/autos/bp/10-best-cities-automotive-enthusiasts-182243980.html https://www.yahoo.com/autos/bp/10-best-cities-automotive-ent...

dota_fanatic 11y ago
Methinks the author is out of touch. Austin suffers from too many cars on too few, small roads, so the traffic is atrocious during work hours. Their population is exploding and the infrastructure cannot keep up. The parking situation is bad, unless you can afford to just throw money down the drain. As a result, there's a large biking population, despite how dangerous it is biking on those crowded streets. There's a good attempt at bike lanes, but not good enough.
abalashov 11y ago
My wife and I live in Atlanta. We have three children (3, 4, and a newborn) and live in a 1200 sq. ft. 2 BR apartment downtown. We use our car maybe once a month, and mostly because our pediatrician's out in the suburbs. I won't deny that we're beneficiaries of Instacart, for as long as that's around, as there's no grocery store within reasonable walking distance. We have no plans to move out of the city, though it would be nice if there were 3+ BR options for people like us that weren't insanely expensive penthouses or niche luxury units at $3200/mo+[1]. We're not representative of the mainstream Atlanta consensus, but we're not the only ones like this. There's a palpable revitalisation of downtown going on that has attracted lots of young professionals. I certainly expect it to stick and grow. [1] Yes, I know that's the going rate for a rent-controlled 500 sq. ft. studio with leaking pipes in SF. Have the heart to make some provisions for Atlanta, where median rent is $1200 - $1400.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 11y ago

I was not to see the whole article because it is behind a paywall, but one thing that might affect the driving habits of the under 25 cohort is that people in general are waiting later to have children. Having children dramatically changes the calculus involved with driving a car. When I was single I really did not have to shop much, it was easy for me to walk or bike to school or work even in bad weather and I could choose a not so good place to live that was cheap and close to work cause I really did not spend too much time at home except for crashing at night. With children now, I have to buy a lot more supplies. To save money I often buy stuff in bulk. Also, I am more concerned about neighborhood safety and good schools. Now a place that meets my criteria at a price I can afford is likely to not be within walking or biking distance from work. Also, when I want to go somewhere in inclement weather, I find it more preferable for me to put my children in my dry climate controlled car, than to have to worry about if they are getting wet, cold, or hot. My point is not to talk about driving being good or bad but to point out that having children can be a huge confounding factor when looking driving trends and drawing conclusions about these trends without taking into account the larger demographic trends surrounding when people are having children is likes to be misleading.

pnathan 11y ago
This is a big deal, unfortunately. I am super onboard with the urbanization movement, but cost of a 3-4 bedroom living space is not cheap in an urban area. I really don't want to raise my kids in a suburb - my wife and I grew up in that environment and it was unpleasant. But we may be forced that direction just to afford to have enough space for 1-2 children. :-( edit to add some color commentary: I would mostly like to sell my car and not buy another one; I would like to use public transit everywhere; I would like to live in a high-density area with 6+ story residences. Many benefits accrue in these situations; I don't understand the pleasure or enjoyment of living outside of that kind of environment - having done so myself, the more urban the area, the better living it is.
- keehun 11y ago
  Just curious, what did you and your wife find unpleasant about growing up in the suburbs? I grew up in a suburb and loved it very much.

raarts 11y ago

Interestingly enough, dutch media for a few years have been reporting a similar trend among young people in The Netherlands.

pcurve 11y ago

Car ownership is becoming less fun. Recent cars are: 1. More difficult to repair. 2. More prone to breakage due to complexity 3. Less fun to drive. Good luck finding stick shift. I'd hate to be high school student these days.

jethro_tell 11y ago
Mostly right, but, > More prone to breakage due to complexity Engines used to be good for 10 - 30k miles, now that's a service interval.
omegaham 11y ago
> 2. More prone to breakage due to complexity I agree with a lot of the newer features, but it's a fact that old luxury features are now standard, (and more reliable than the old luxury features) and the regular features are more reliable than ever. Transmissions last longer, brakes last longer, engines last longer, tires last longer. Hell, tire technology has gotten so good that you actually have to do something to get a flat. It used to be that you just got flats every now and then. Not anymore. Basically, if you want luxury features that will break at about the same rate as the luxury features on cars in the 80s, you can get them. If you want a really basic model car that doesn't have motorized doors and electrically controlled seats, you can get that, too. And it'll get fantastic gas mileage, and it won't kill you in a car crash, either. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g
arpa 11y ago
You are right, especially about #2.

zipwitch 11y ago

When the WSJ says "more Americans" does it actually mean that, or does it mean "more people who live in the US and make at least $100,000 annually"?

ascagnel_ 11y ago
They mean more Americans. For example, New Jersey has a number of smaller cities (Newark, Paterson, Passaic, Trenton, Camden, etc) in close proximity to major metro areas (NYC, Philadelphia) that suffered debilitating white flight a generation ago. These cities are still economically depressed and are mostly inhabited by non-whites and tend to have lower incomes. As much as the majority here seems to be extolling the virtues of urbanization, the real challenge are cities like this: what are currently barely-functional city cores that must be rehabilitated without substantially displacing current residents.

EGreg 11y ago

That's because more people are able to work from home, and cities have finally become more walkable, as more areas are built up. In the suburbs, driving is still big.

nyan4 11y ago

And it is about time! This crazy fuel-consumerism is simply unsustainable.

anexprogrammer 11y ago

Hardly surprising. Where's the appeal of driving when you spend so much more of your time stuck in nose-to-tail traffic jams and breathing fumes? The "open road" is either hundreds of miles away or something you ask your parents about. Insurance is becoming unaffordable for youngsters. Fuel is near £5 a gallon. People do most of their shopping online and the supermarket delivers, so there's no weekly need of the car like there once was. Twenty years ago you pretty much needed a car just for the weekly groceries. So one of the key motivators has gone. You're left transporting with toddler age children as one of the key motivators, so you can delay getting one until you're thinking about having a family. As we're having families later and later in life... A car is simply no longer something as desirable as it once was.

eximius 11y ago

I would never give up the autonomy that driving allows. It might be cheaper for me to do some public transit + Uber or something (seriously doubt it where I love), but it'd have to be basically free for me to accept being dependent on others so much.

jusben1369 11y ago

I think it's 3 things (I have teenagers about to get permits) 1) Parents don't let their kids drive or walk anywhere due to safety concerns (real or unfounded) So kids have built in chauffeurs and thus a lot less motivation to drive anywhere. 2) Uber 3) Work returning to city centers. Teenagers have parents driving them everywhere. They use Uber at college and then get a job in a city. I guess they could take on the expense and headache of car ownership but there's very little upside.

barney54 11y ago

If driving is losing its allure, then how are people getting around? The reason I wonder is that in some places like LA, public transit ridership is down, not up as you would expect. http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-ridership-slump-20160127-story.html http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-ridership-slum...

ascagnel_ 11y ago
Uber, Lyft, and other ride-sharing services are one option. The other thing to look at would be unemployment numbers (a sudden spike in new unemployment claims or a trough in total unemployment enrollment could correlate to a drop in commuting).

ryandrake 11y ago

I don't see driving going away for me any time soon, for the following reasons: 1. I live 50 miles from work and 10 miles from my nearest close friend. 2. House is within bicycling distance to a single train station, but the train doesn't go anywhere useful. You basically need auto transportation once you get off it, which makes it pointless. 3. Kid who will be in school soon, and is too far from the nearest elementary school to walk. 4. Hobbies (e.g. wood working) that often require me to haul large heavy items from stores miles away. 5. Generally we like to go out and do stuff. Whether it's across town or across the state, there's really only one option: You have to drive. People don't realize how big the USA is, and how far things are apart. Unless you're in a dense urban environment ($$$) you're kind of stuck needing to drive.

stevesearer 11y ago
I agree. We just drove up to Oakland from Santa Barbara for the weekend where the only other options of getting there are train, plane, and possibly bus (never looked into it). I'd love to take the train because I love being a passenger and think they are fun, but it is significantly more expensive with multiple people and it takes 8 hours where driving takes about 5. Plus once we get there, it is nice to have a way to get around.
mrtron 11y ago
1. You could gain a few hours a day of leisure with an autonomous car. 2. Sounds like you won't use that train in this scenario. 3. I am sure someone will figure out safe autonomous kids->school delivery. 4. Perfect case for hitting the 'large truck' button in an app. Or more likely, stores will have delivery well sorted out. 5. Longer term rentals seem like another thing that will get easily sorted out. You might always need longer distance transit, but it seems unlikely you will continue needing to drive.
- ryandrake 11y ago
  Once the cost of a car (amortized over 10 years) + gas + maintenance + insurance > the cost to rent a car for all of my driving needs, I'm ditching the car. But it isn't anywhere close yet (and I have records for myself for 20 years).

rocky1138 11y ago

What Americans once called Driving is no longer really possible. Due to rules, traffic, and social pressure, you simply cannot let loose and have fun in a car anymore. What Americans do now is called Commuting, and that, of course, has zero allure. For some reason, we still call it Driving, but that should change since Commuting is much more accurate.

dopeboy 11y ago

Couple thoughts coming from a late 80s baby raised in the burbs: * Cars are a symbol of freedom. You don't have to ask mom or dad to drop you off at the movie theaters. You can actually do things after school with your friends rather than go straight home. You can blast music that expresses your counter cultural identity as loud as you want without anyone telling you to turn it down. * Cars are an expression of identity. If you're about status, you rock the Benz. If you're about strength, you have the raised pickup truck. If you're about speed, you have the Civic with VTEC turbo, NOS, and the loud exhaust. * Cars are fun. There is no better feeling than having your favorite music turned high, your windows down, and rapidly accelerating through traffic. The roar that you hear and feel from your car tops off the experience. I haven't been able to reproduce this rush on other vehicles like boats or bikes.

mikeash 11y ago
Interesting that all three of your examples involve anti-social behaviour. I have nothing against cars, but blasting loud music or a loud exhaust is a dick move.
ascagnel_ 11y ago
Also a late 80s baby from the burbs: * Cars are a shackle. I've seriously considered moving to within walking distance of the local train station, since I commute via train; even the slightly more expensive apartment would be greatly offset by the reduced need to fuel and maintain the car. * One person's expression of identity is another's nuisance. I lived on a street where people with loud exhausts would accelerate so they maximize the noise. It'd be a loud distraction, cause traffic problems, and wake people up at night. Buses had less of a noise impact. * Rapidly accelerating through traffic can be dangerous if other drivers aren't aware of you. Doubly so if you're weaving through traffic.

soylentcola 11y ago

For me it's not so much about "allure" as it is economics. I live with my girlfriend and she has a modest car that she's paid off. We both work downtown and live about 3 miles from work. We mostly ride to work together so we only pay for one parking pass and use one car's worth of fuel. When weather is nice I may ride my bike to work or ride the motorcycle I bought for shorter trips that don't require the car or highway driving. Either way, the bike cost maybe a third of what her car cost but neither of us is paying off a vehicle loan. I've considered getting a second car. Something used and under $10k. Maybe even under $8k. Basically I think about it those handful of times it's not convenient to share the car and I need to pay $10 to take a cab/Uber or rent something once a year for a longer trip while she needs the car. But I can never really justify it. As much as I'd like my own car, even a perfect balance (cheap/old enough to be affordable but no to much that maintenance makes up the difference) would cost way more than hiring or renting something for the times I'd use it.

ilaksh 11y ago

Credit is tighter and the economy is rough. I envision automated lightweight safe single-passenger vehicles and something like a Hyperloop for long distance. http://runvnc.github.io/tinyvillage/ http://runvnc.github.io/tinyvillage/

petsormeat 11y ago

I'm 50, and an American. I've never owned a car. I can attest to the stigma of not traveling via personal motor vehicle, and the senseless barriers we've erected to getting through one's daily life by means other than car. I'm cheered by these splashy blurbs, but I'm unconvinced they report a permanent trend: we still have a huge inventory of office park sprawl, strip mall wastelands, and residential "neighborhoods" with no sidewalks, with more being developed.

gadders 11y ago

I can understand people who live in cities not buying a car, but I know several people in their 30's who have not even learnt to drive. I find this strange to understand. I'd put driving up there as a skill most people should know, like swimming.

fulafel 11y ago

Interesting to see that neither in the article or in the 166 comments discussing everyone's personal feelings toward driving, nobody even mentions the environment or climate change, the ethics of unnecessary burning of fossil fuels. In Europe this aspect would come up pretty quickly. A kind of taboo?

theworstshill 11y ago

Money and congestion are to blame. The car still gives you incredible freedom and saves a lot of time.

EvanPlaice 11y ago

Cars used to be fun. Car companies used to encourage the enthusiast culture. Enthusiast culture has changed to mostly rich kids showing off the Beamer their parents bought them. very few actually do their own work. Nowadays, cars are more expensive. Insurance is mandatory. Owners are discouraged from doing their own maintenance. Commuting to work only gets worse over time. And, to add insult to injury, gas prices still suck despite oil prices being the lowest they have been in decades. All of the things that made car ownership fun for young guys is discouraged by manufacturers because they've shifted their profit models to depend heavily on long-term service/maintenance. If I move close to a city any time soon the first thing I plan to do is get rid of my car. at this point it's just an expensive burden.