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Tesla shares dive after Consumer Reports yanks recommendation for Model S

orrsella 11y ago
Shares reportedly[1] down 10% due to report. [1] http://seekingalpha.com/news/2840766-tesla-lower-after-consumer-reports-cites-model-s-reliability-issues http://seekingalpha.com/news/2840766-tesla-lower-after-consu...
- rafamvc 11y ago
  But still have 97% saying they would buy the car again? That is a statistic that doesnt match the claim that the cars arent good.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    There is a category of car, where the buyer identifies with a group. They don't buy the car for price or service record; they buy it to join a club. The VW Beetle; the PT Cruiser; Cooper's Mini all are cars like that. It doesn't matter what resale value they have, or how often they break down. All that matters is the self-image of the person doing the buying. They go into it knowing they will like the car, no matter what. So the 97% number is entirely expected.
  - justin66 11y ago
    The customers having problems simply aren't making that claim.
  - cpwright 11y ago
    CR didn't say the car wasn't good, they said it wasn't reliable. The car performed very well on their tests related to the road; so it is fun to drive, safe, comfortable, etc. The problem is that it breaks; and then you need to get it fixed. It seems Tesla is pretty good about fixing things without giving you trouble about it; so they make the negative experience into a positive/neutral one. This leaves you with a good car, not reliable, but still with happy owners; so everything makes sense to me. And the stock overreacts to all kinds of news, and it is true that reliability will matter as far as their future profits (if they keep everyone happy it costs a bunch; if they don't, they'll lose sales).
deleted 11y ago
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synaesthesisx 11y ago
ELON MUSK
simonsarris 11y ago
As Consumer Reports suggests, this is totally understandable. Straight from CR: > The Tesla wasn’t the only high-performance vehicle that fell below average in reliability. Others include the BMW X5 and 5 Series, and the Chevrolet Corvette. > When automakers roll out new technology, be it infotainment, transmissions, or engine variations, it often has a deleterious effect on vehicle reliability. Tesla is not only the poster child for a new type of high-performance, high-mileage EV, but it also has been adding complex new variations as assembly-line updates, such as all-wheel drive this year. So it’s not surprising to see problems continue to crop up. > Despite the problems, our data show that Tesla owner satisfaction is still very high: Ninety-seven percent of owners said they would definitely buy their car again. It appears that Tesla has been responsive to replacing faulty motors, differentials, brakes, and infotainment systems, all with a minimum of fuss to owners. The CR article is here: http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability-doesnt-match-its-high-performance http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability-doesnt... It's not easy to accidentally slip on a banana peel and buy a Tesla, so I think most owners would understand the risks of buying a brand-new car company's product loaded with brand-new tech. For some that's part of the appeal. I suspect the market is over-reacting a little.
- encoderer 11y ago
  Tesla's PE in 2016 is forecasted over 130. For comparison bmw is under 10. Tesla is priced for perfection.
  - ceejayoz 11y ago
    Comparing Tesla to BMW like that probably isn't very reasonable. No one has any expectations that BMW will suddenly decide to start selling 10x or 100x the number of cars, while that's Tesla's explicit goal.
    - 6stringmerc 11y ago
      That's an interesting point. If Quality Control issues persist (at a rate statistically significant vs. the 'competition'), and there's a larger number of vehicles purchased / in use, then I wonder if the repair and maintenance services by Telsa will be negatively affected? I mean, it's one thing to schedule an appointment when there are XX shops that can work on a brand where the local population is in the thousands (like BMW), but if there are many more cars with issues than there are shops to fix them...that sounds like a choke point to me, and one rather unique to Tesla in this regard.
outworlder 11y ago
That is kinda expected. This is a new company after all, with new technology. What I didn't see in the article was: how are they handling the failures? It is one thing to have a car that's unreliable, but that you can then take to a dealer and get it back a couple of days after with everything fixed. It is another if you have to fight the company every step of the way to get it fixed or, even worse, pay for their mistakes out of your own pocket.
- skorecky 11y ago
  They address this in the article. > Tesla spokesman Ricardo Reyes said the Palo Alto automaker keeps in close communication with its customers to “proactively address issues, and quickly fix problems.”
  - outworlder 11y ago
    Yeah, but do they? As far as companies go, I have a decent level of trust on statements by Tesla. But it is still a company, and that statement has to be independently evaluated.
    - skorecky 11y ago
      Yes. They have a 97% satisfaction rating. They actively update their cars through software and hardware/parts[1] Just because they're a company doesn't mean they're trying to screw everyone over. Do you think they roll out cars with bad parts of purpose? No of course not. [1] http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tesla-adds-titanium-underbody-shield-and-aluminum-deflector-plates-model-s http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tesla-adds-titanium-underbod...
    - karlkatzke 11y ago
      I can only speak to anecdotes, but the three Tesla owners I know have been called by Tesla to ask the customer to bring the car to a service center so that Tesla could address something the onboard computer had reported.
    - Lightbody 11y ago
late2part 11y ago
On the one hand, they're a new company relative to the others; they are taking many risks, and they won't perform flawlessly - so I give them a lot of slack for trying and mostly succeeding. Also, they are very good at fixing things when they screw up. On the other hand, their stock price is WAY over valued. Hopefully we will get gentle ratchets to bring it back down to earth, such as this.
- beat 11y ago
  I'm not convinced the stock is overvalued. Tesla could end up not only making cars, but reworking the whole electric grid. How often does a company get to change a fundamental utility like that?
deleted 11y ago
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derekp7 11y ago
Seeing as how the battery system is primarily what makes electric cars expensive, I really wish automakers would start delivering plugin hybrids that have, say 75 - 100 mile range on battery (to keep cost down), along with a very low horsepower gas engine. (Most plugin hybrids give you about 20 - 30 miles on battery). The way it would work: the battery would drive the front wheels, and you would use the battery for most of your driving -- but when it got down to 20% charge, the gas engine would kick in to power the back wheels. The battery could provide acceleration, and the gas engine (about 20HP?) would maintain highway speed (and trickle charge the battery when running off gas). That way, you are using electric for most of your daily driving, but won't get range anxiety.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  Let's not go down that path again. All sorts of mutant variations have been designed/built. The successful hybrid is one that allows both gas and electric to contribute simultaneously on demand, so as to increase the maximum performance. While not impacting the efficiency of running on electric-only when that works.
- Shivetya 11y ago
  Chevy already has the Volt and the 2nd generation gets 50 to 53 miles EV and over 40 on gas afterward. The i3 is 70 to near 90 EV and similar in gas mode. Cadillac will have the CT6 which is a full sized car with the new Volt power train and expectations are high for it too. Yeah, i would like to see about half again more in base EV range, the cover the mistakes cover emergencies ev range we are not seeing now. The most important car coming in the next two years isn't from Tesla, it is again from Chevy and it will be the Bolt, they are promising 200 miles EV at less than 40k, possibly under 30k with tax incentives. They already are testing it with near production mules and claiming that 200 was easily done. Their battery costs are 145 or lower per kwh and expected to fall to 100 by 2020. Production is slated now for late 2016 having been moved up - not back.
- proee 11y ago
  This is exactly what the Chevy Volt offers.
- 11y ago
notJim 11y ago
Seems like a great opportunity to get yourself some (relatively) cheap $TSLA.
- MikeTLive 11y ago
  That's what has happened. At (5%) came up a little then down till another (5%) and up again on volume, then dropped to its (12%) relative min on the day and has been slowly coming up and I predict will continue to do so as all the people that believe in it hold the shares they bought at the min and will sell again when it recovers. A tidy little day traders profit session.
- RockyMcNuts 11y ago
  I struggle to come up with any metric on which TSLA is cheap.
johnward 11y ago
I'm a Tesla fan and I actually expect this from a new car company with their first product from the ground up. They need to figure this out if they want the Model 3 to be mass market though. I want to buy it and it doesn't even exist yet.
Lightbody 11y ago
I got my P85 in July 2013 and I can absolutely confirm what Consumer Reports is saying. My car has (and continues) to have all sorts of small fit-and-finish issues. While I've never had a drivetrain issue or any major problem, I have had some wireless and door handle issues that required as new Master Control Unit. Sadly, the work replacing the MCU introduced even more squeaks in the dashboard area :( That all said: I still love the car and I expect I'll buy another Tesla some day in the future.
- vesrah 11y ago
  Right there with you. <3000mi on the car and the drive unit needed to be replaced, the front left strut area makes a popping when turning the wheel, and I can hear something flapping while driving.
  - anxman 11y ago
    My 2013 P85 was in for service 4 times before the alignment was fixed correctly. Sticky sunroof. Rattles. 12v battery failure causing full system failure. Motor replacement. Charge port battery broke. 2014 P85D: Total vehicle failure at 218 miles on the odometer. Front motor replaced. Rear motor milling failure. Rear motor replacement again as part incompatible with Autopilot. That all being said, the service is painless and I still love my car. I'm not going back to BMW unless kicking and screaming.
    - tempestn 11y ago
      Painless if there's a service center nearby. This is all making me seriously reconsider buying one when I'd have to travel to get it serviced...
      - anxman 11y ago
        I do live very close to a service center and that certainly is a factor in my ownership. If I didn't live near an SC, I would opt for Ranger service.
briandear 11y ago
I wonder how many CR editors shorter Tesla stock before this was published. It wouldn't even be considered insider trading. I don't really put much stock in CR, unfortunately, the markets did -- quite unfairly actually since most folks buying Teslas aren't doing comparison shopping using CR.
- kpwagner 11y ago
  The number is zero. Any more than that would be a serious scandal--can't imagine that would be legal. Market manipulation is a pretty serious crime ever since the days of Jay Gould.
  - Overtonwindow 11y ago
    I'm not so sure, remember when it was perfectly legal for members of Congress and their staff to use information gained through their jobs to make stock purchases? I mean this was just a few years ago....
    - FireBeyond 11y ago
      When it was? It still is, as far as I recall.
    - aetherson 11y ago
      Is it your contention that Congress also created a special exemption for Consumer Reports? That seems like: a. It credits CR with a lot more power than CR actually has. b. We would have heard about it before now.
      - Overtonwindow 11y ago
        I'm not saying that consumer reports did anything wrong, but insider trading or not, it happens. And places we would not expect. Who would've ever thought that members of Congress in their staff would be allowed to do insider trading? Until someone pointed out that it was illegal some years back, it never crossed my mind. I assumed it was illegal
6stringmerc 11y ago
Okay, I'll be sure to dial back my 'traditionalist' bent when it comes to vehicles and technology, it doesn't help make any points. ...but with the Model S as the 2nd iteration of a Tesla vehicle, and their first "ground up" model, how does this bode for the often stalled release of the Model X? It very much reminds me of issues faced by software companies, but there's some leeway being given to Tesla I don't think is really deserved. As in, if the last release was really buggy over the course of several years of fixes and patches (and the occasional feature removal like the swappable battery packs), then should expectations be tempered? Anyway, I'll keep an eye on the company and what its products mean for the industry as a whole.
- digitalzombie 11y ago
  > how does this bode for the often stalled release of the Model X? I would wait for version 5 to come out when they work out all the kinks. They'll sell like hotcakes cause CUV is a thing. They were very smart to make their 3rd car a CUV.
tdees40 11y ago
I had a conversation with a (recently-departed) Tesla mechanic the other day (who has had experience working with every other type of car), and he said, "I knew every Tesla owner in the tri-state area on a first-name basis. Everything breaks." He did say that it's getting better with the newer models.
- beeboop 11y ago
  Everything breaks on other cars, too. I am not really sure what you're getting at with this comment. A mechanic sees nothing but broken cars.
  - tdees40 11y ago
    Maybe this wasn't clear in my earlier comment, but he has been a mechanic for lots of other types of cars, and he stated that the reliability was materially worse than other cars.
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      I think what people don't get is, A lot of Model S owners have no problem paying to be beta testers. Problems occur, but Tesla is fantastic about fixing them quickly through their service centers.
  - lttlrck 11y ago
    mechanics generally do not see the all the cars in a given local area time and time again except for regular servicing.
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      There aren't many Teslas in any area.
  - hvidgaard 11y ago
    Plenty of people have brought cars before Model S was on sale, and never had a problem. That is reliability. In Denmark we have our fair share of Model S. I live is a smaller city and I see at least 5 every day. I haven't heard about a single Model S without issues, which is the same as a mechanic that states he is on first name with every single Tesla owner in the area. They are behind most other manufactures in production knowledge, and they're using new technology. Of course it'll be near impossible for them to avoid issues altogether.
aresant 11y ago
Interesting that this important line was omitted from the LATimes article: “Despite the problems, [CONSUMER REPORTS] data show that Tesla owner satisfaction is still very high: Ninety-seven percent of owners said they would definitely buy their car again." That is a direct quote from the CS article and featured in other prominent media. (1) I get that a negative CS article could potentially influence brand perception for non-owners but seems somewhat irresponsible to report only the negative side of the story especially when the Tesla LITERALLY ranked #1 in Consumer Reports 2014's Automotive Satisfaction. (1) http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2015/10/20/teslas-perfect-score-from-consumer-reports-doesnt-mean-its-100-reliable-far-from-it/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2015/10/20/teslas-pe... (2) http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095745_tesla-model-s-tops-consumer-reports-customer-satisfaction-index-again http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095745_tesla-model-s-to...
- Zelphyr 11y ago
  This is why I no longer consume mainstream media news. They ALL have an agenda and that is either to scare you or make you angry. And they obviously don't care about lying by omission in order to garner views.
  - jegutman 11y ago
    The scare people is bad, and immediately feels like worse reporting than the "makes you angry kind", but in the long run I'm much more concerned by the trend of news consumption heading towards the "makes me angry" kind. It can't be good for overall mental health.
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      It can't be good for the health of society either. All those little anger-inducing tweaks add up, shaping national sentiments and thus voting patterns.
lifeisstillgood 11y ago
So some sales figures from random unchecked websites Tesla: 10k/qtr or 40k cars pa BMW: 26k/mth or 312k car pa So BMW sells 8x tesla (lots of hand wavy around figures), and tesla is selling at 13x BMW Seems like a good bet - Tesla just needs to replace one of the worlds major brands. VW just imploded so there is room in the market without any major shifts. http://jalopnik.com/tesla-is-finally-giving-us-sales-numbers-but-not-the-o-1695499966 http://jalopnik.com/tesla-is-finally-giving-us-sales-numbers... http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1122009 http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1122009
Overtonwindow 11y ago
I still think we should give Tesla the benefit of the doubt. This article feels like a hit piece, again. At the very least, it's a media organization gleefully taking a hit at an innovative company. I support Tesla less because it has great cars, but because it's really trying to build a better car.
brianstorms 11y ago
My 2013 Model S has had its share of issues. My car is on its third drivetrain. Am I unhappy about it? Nope. Was it a hassle? A little. Was it a show-stopper? Nope. Did Tesla always take care of the issues to my satisfaction? Absolutely. Would I buy another Tesla? Not only YES but I cannot imagine ever buying anything else ever again. Tesla's huge weakness continues to be communication between company and customer. That is and always has been my number one area of concern. Not reliability. Except in terms of communications reliability. They are terrible at managing expectations. At providing quick and timely updates. At explaining functionality (ESPECIALLY in the age of autopilot) for not only safe driving but also simply maximizing enjoyment of all the car's capabilities. Tesla as a company is a shambles when it comes to communicating. It unfortunately continues to be a low priority to fix it. I wish CR would ding Tesla for lousy communications. Because customer complaints about their weakness as communicators go unheeded. But I would still buy a Tesla again and plan to.
- petersellers 11y ago
  As someone who typically drives cars outside of their warranty period, I don't understand the lack of concern about reliability after your 3rd drivetrain. I suppose if you are leasing the car that is one thing, but with that kind of warranty work I would be extremely hesitant to buy a used Tesla.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    The Model S powertrain warranty is 8 years/infinite miles.
    - ansible 11y ago
      My current car is 14 years old. My previous two reached 16 and 17 years. I try to run then as long as possible because cars are money sinks.
      - toomuchtodo 11y ago
        The future won't be like the past. I don't expect to own a car 8 years from now in any scenario (electric self driving cars on demand). Owning a vehicle just seems like such a waste, so much capital tied up in something that sits around all day. Could you imagine airlines that let aircraft sit idle 95% of the time?
crabasa 11y ago
Comparing Tesla to existing car companies misses the point entirely. Telsa is an energy platform company that is investing in delivering (Supercharger network) and storing (Gigafactory) energy. Cars are certainly the current "killer app" today, but are likely to be followed by many other applications in the future.
- blisterpeanuts 11y ago
  Yes, it's starting to look as though the cars are merely a shell for the very profitable batteries they're going to be cranking out in Nevada. Perhaps the whole Tesla car idea was a buyout play -- get established, build a name, then sell the whole thing to GM for $30 billion. Once the battery plant has economies of scale, they'll be fueling a whole new generation of electric vehicles by other makers, perhaps including the upcoming Apple and Google auto-pilot offerings (the Nexus car? the iCar?). Then there is the home and small office market for backup power, storage of daytime solar energy, off-grid and remote locations e.g. ranger stations in national parks. It'll be interesting to see how this shakes out.
  - dragontamer 11y ago
    Except those uses of energy are better solved by Redox-flow batteries, Compressed Air Energy Storage (CAES), or pumped hydro. http://energy.gov/oe/services/technology-development/energy-storage http://energy.gov/oe/services/technology-development/energy-... A single $5 Billion pumped-hydro plant can store 30 Gigawatt-hours of energy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_Sta... The energy demands of this country will be met by utility companies and their massive infrastructure projects. A few hundred MW-Hrs from Tesla is pretty small in the great scheme of utility energy storage.
    - crabasa 11y ago
      I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that Telsa is competing with utilities to store energy at scale. I meant storing energy for personal use (vehicles/homes/etc). They will certainly source all of their energy from said utility companies.
ck2 11y ago
This is where if companies were honest they'd send out cards "Thank you for beta testing" as maybe a 10th generation owner someday, I say thank you to all previous owners too for spending the money to work out the bugs
ZeroGravitas 11y ago
Oddly, I was just thinking the other day about how Tesla had a reputation for being a bit prototype-y but I hadn't heard anything about it recently, so I concluded they'd massively improved. Based on this they're better, but still not great. Was it not Consumer Reports that had a string of issues with their first model S, or was that another car magazine?
- thewopr 11y ago
  Are you thinking about the NY times article? http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the-ev-highway.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the...
  - ZeroGravitas 11y ago
    No, I remember that as well, but there was someone that had the car and liked it but needed to get lots of parts replaced. Edmund's maybe? Yes that was it: http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/wrap-up.html http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-tes...
bsder 11y ago
Just HFT algorithms attempting to get ahead of each other.
Htsthbjig 11y ago
After you drive a Tesla, you feel everything else is outdated. Today I drove a conventional car and it just feels so clunky and slow. On the other hand, I prefer a normal key for opening my car, a simple, proven tech that works. Tesla has all those "someone had this idea and incorporated it in the car" that is typical of startups. Everything has to be new and this makes reliability suffer in little stupid things, the basic experience is far superior to anything else. The same happens to Apple in new products, you pay extra and you are the Guinea pig on anything new they include, think on ghost screens with retina display.
- sharkweek 11y ago
  Not that I can afford a Tesla anyways, but... I really like my old Toyota 4runner for the same reason you like a traditional key. I like being able to open it up and follow very clear mechanics while generally understanding what I'm looking at.
pccheck 11y ago
Made in the U.S.A.!
ricardobeat 11y ago
Só Lexus, the one that kills people with a stuck accelerator, is the most reliable. Okay...
- rmah 11y ago
  I'm pretty sure that was found to be caused by people accidentally hitting the accelerator.
rev_bird 11y ago
I've read most of this stuff before and am still excited to get a Tesla once a more reasonably priced one comes out. One thing keeps bugging me, though: If I wanted to get up tomorrow morning and drive across the country in a gas car, I could do it no problem. When I run out of fuel after ~325 miles, I just stop for 10 minutes at a gas station and head back out on the road. With a Tesla, I need to carefully plan out charging stations <200 miles apart and stay there for what, at least an hour at a time? Do Tesla drivers just not go on road trips?
- dcgoss 11y ago
  http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger has all the information you need. Realistically, an hour is the higher end of the waiting time - you can get significant range in fractions of that time. Additionally, the navigation software on the Tesla will automatically route your road trip through Superchargers, so you don't have to calculate where you need to stop.
  - rev_bird 11y ago
    I knew there was a pretty extensive network of superchargers, but I really underestimated the nav. Really appreciate the reply.
    - hvidgaard 11y ago
      It's a great help, but your original point still stands. With a ICE you can simply point on a map and start driving. With a Tesla, you have to make sure there is super chargers on the way, even if the Nav helps you, you still aren't free to do as you want.
pneumaio 11y ago
Is interesting how much influence Consumer Reports wields relative to other publications that review and rate products. Don't own a Tesla, or have an opinion on their reliability, but wonder sometimes if we don't need a Consumer Reports for Consumer Reports.
datashovel 11y ago
"automatically retractable door handles". Forgive me for being ignorant about this, but as soon as I read this (that not only it exists, but is a "signature feature") I couldn't help but wonder why... Does anyone here know why such a feature would exist? Sure it makes one ooh and ahh when they're about to buy it, and probably the first few months after, but does anyone think if this feature does not perform perfectly, it could only possibly cause more buyer's remorse than anything else?
- swampthinker 11y ago
  Aerodynamics. Protruding handles are a source of drag, so it was eliminated.
  - datashovel 11y ago
    The thing that gets me is I read that it causes people to be locked out of their cars if it doesn't work right. I've seen plenty of cars without protruding handles that don't lock you out of the car. I wonder if anyone would care if they were shown the math behind the amount of drag it reduces vs. the possibility of temporarily being locked out of their cars on random occasion.
anonbanker 11y ago
This is the best time ever to buy Tesla stock. it's being globally shorted.

Shares reportedly[1] down 10% due to report. [1] http://seekingalpha.com/news/2840766-tesla-lower-after-consumer-reports-cites-model-s-reliability-issues http://seekingalpha.com/news/2840766-tesla-lower-after-consu...

rafamvc 11y ago
But still have 97% saying they would buy the car again? That is a statistic that doesnt match the claim that the cars arent good.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  There is a category of car, where the buyer identifies with a group. They don't buy the car for price or service record; they buy it to join a club. The VW Beetle; the PT Cruiser; Cooper's Mini all are cars like that. It doesn't matter what resale value they have, or how often they break down. All that matters is the self-image of the person doing the buying. They go into it knowing they will like the car, no matter what. So the 97% number is entirely expected.
- justin66 11y ago
  The customers having problems simply aren't making that claim.
- cpwright 11y ago
  CR didn't say the car wasn't good, they said it wasn't reliable. The car performed very well on their tests related to the road; so it is fun to drive, safe, comfortable, etc. The problem is that it breaks; and then you need to get it fixed. It seems Tesla is pretty good about fixing things without giving you trouble about it; so they make the negative experience into a positive/neutral one. This leaves you with a good car, not reliable, but still with happy owners; so everything makes sense to me. And the stock overreacts to all kinds of news, and it is true that reliability will matter as far as their future profits (if they keep everyone happy it costs a bunch; if they don't, they'll lose sales).

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

synaesthesisx 11y ago

ELON MUSK

simonsarris 11y ago

As Consumer Reports suggests, this is totally understandable. Straight from CR: > The Tesla wasn’t the only high-performance vehicle that fell below average in reliability. Others include the BMW X5 and 5 Series, and the Chevrolet Corvette. > When automakers roll out new technology, be it infotainment, transmissions, or engine variations, it often has a deleterious effect on vehicle reliability. Tesla is not only the poster child for a new type of high-performance, high-mileage EV, but it also has been adding complex new variations as assembly-line updates, such as all-wheel drive this year. So it’s not surprising to see problems continue to crop up. > Despite the problems, our data show that Tesla owner satisfaction is still very high: Ninety-seven percent of owners said they would definitely buy their car again. It appears that Tesla has been responsive to replacing faulty motors, differentials, brakes, and infotainment systems, all with a minimum of fuss to owners. The CR article is here: http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability-doesnt-match-its-high-performance http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability-doesnt... It's not easy to accidentally slip on a banana peel and buy a Tesla, so I think most owners would understand the risks of buying a brand-new car company's product loaded with brand-new tech. For some that's part of the appeal. I suspect the market is over-reacting a little.

encoderer 11y ago
Tesla's PE in 2016 is forecasted over 130. For comparison bmw is under 10. Tesla is priced for perfection.
- ceejayoz 11y ago
  Comparing Tesla to BMW like that probably isn't very reasonable. No one has any expectations that BMW will suddenly decide to start selling 10x or 100x the number of cars, while that's Tesla's explicit goal.
  - 6stringmerc 11y ago
    That's an interesting point. If Quality Control issues persist (at a rate statistically significant vs. the 'competition'), and there's a larger number of vehicles purchased / in use, then I wonder if the repair and maintenance services by Telsa will be negatively affected? I mean, it's one thing to schedule an appointment when there are XX shops that can work on a brand where the local population is in the thousands (like BMW), but if there are many more cars with issues than there are shops to fix them...that sounds like a choke point to me, and one rather unique to Tesla in this regard.

outworlder 11y ago

That is kinda expected. This is a new company after all, with new technology. What I didn't see in the article was: how are they handling the failures? It is one thing to have a car that's unreliable, but that you can then take to a dealer and get it back a couple of days after with everything fixed. It is another if you have to fight the company every step of the way to get it fixed or, even worse, pay for their mistakes out of your own pocket.

skorecky 11y ago
They address this in the article. > Tesla spokesman Ricardo Reyes said the Palo Alto automaker keeps in close communication with its customers to “proactively address issues, and quickly fix problems.”
- outworlder 11y ago
  Yeah, but do they? As far as companies go, I have a decent level of trust on statements by Tesla. But it is still a company, and that statement has to be independently evaluated.
  - skorecky 11y ago
    Yes. They have a 97% satisfaction rating. They actively update their cars through software and hardware/parts[1] Just because they're a company doesn't mean they're trying to screw everyone over. Do you think they roll out cars with bad parts of purpose? No of course not. [1] http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tesla-adds-titanium-underbody-shield-and-aluminum-deflector-plates-model-s http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tesla-adds-titanium-underbod...
  - karlkatzke 11y ago
    I can only speak to anecdotes, but the three Tesla owners I know have been called by Tesla to ask the customer to bring the car to a service center so that Tesla could address something the onboard computer had reported.
  - Lightbody 11y ago

late2part 11y ago

On the one hand, they're a new company relative to the others; they are taking many risks, and they won't perform flawlessly - so I give them a lot of slack for trying and mostly succeeding. Also, they are very good at fixing things when they screw up. On the other hand, their stock price is WAY over valued. Hopefully we will get gentle ratchets to bring it back down to earth, such as this.

beat 11y ago
I'm not convinced the stock is overvalued. Tesla could end up not only making cars, but reworking the whole electric grid. How often does a company get to change a fundamental utility like that?

deleted 11y ago

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derekp7 11y ago

Seeing as how the battery system is primarily what makes electric cars expensive, I really wish automakers would start delivering plugin hybrids that have, say 75 - 100 mile range on battery (to keep cost down), along with a very low horsepower gas engine. (Most plugin hybrids give you about 20 - 30 miles on battery). The way it would work: the battery would drive the front wheels, and you would use the battery for most of your driving -- but when it got down to 20% charge, the gas engine would kick in to power the back wheels. The battery could provide acceleration, and the gas engine (about 20HP?) would maintain highway speed (and trickle charge the battery when running off gas). That way, you are using electric for most of your daily driving, but won't get range anxiety.

JoeAltmaier 11y ago
Let's not go down that path again. All sorts of mutant variations have been designed/built. The successful hybrid is one that allows both gas and electric to contribute simultaneously on demand, so as to increase the maximum performance. While not impacting the efficiency of running on electric-only when that works.
Shivetya 11y ago
Chevy already has the Volt and the 2nd generation gets 50 to 53 miles EV and over 40 on gas afterward. The i3 is 70 to near 90 EV and similar in gas mode. Cadillac will have the CT6 which is a full sized car with the new Volt power train and expectations are high for it too. Yeah, i would like to see about half again more in base EV range, the cover the mistakes cover emergencies ev range we are not seeing now. The most important car coming in the next two years isn't from Tesla, it is again from Chevy and it will be the Bolt, they are promising 200 miles EV at less than 40k, possibly under 30k with tax incentives. They already are testing it with near production mules and claiming that 200 was easily done. Their battery costs are 145 or lower per kwh and expected to fall to 100 by 2020. Production is slated now for late 2016 having been moved up - not back.
proee 11y ago
This is exactly what the Chevy Volt offers.
11y ago

notJim 11y ago

Seems like a great opportunity to get yourself some (relatively) cheap $TSLA.

MikeTLive 11y ago
That's what has happened. At (5%) came up a little then down till another (5%) and up again on volume, then dropped to its (12%) relative min on the day and has been slowly coming up and I predict will continue to do so as all the people that believe in it hold the shares they bought at the min and will sell again when it recovers. A tidy little day traders profit session.
RockyMcNuts 11y ago
I struggle to come up with any metric on which TSLA is cheap.

johnward 11y ago

I'm a Tesla fan and I actually expect this from a new car company with their first product from the ground up. They need to figure this out if they want the Model 3 to be mass market though. I want to buy it and it doesn't even exist yet.

Lightbody 11y ago

I got my P85 in July 2013 and I can absolutely confirm what Consumer Reports is saying. My car has (and continues) to have all sorts of small fit-and-finish issues. While I've never had a drivetrain issue or any major problem, I have had some wireless and door handle issues that required as new Master Control Unit. Sadly, the work replacing the MCU introduced even more squeaks in the dashboard area :( That all said: I still love the car and I expect I'll buy another Tesla some day in the future.

vesrah 11y ago
Right there with you. <3000mi on the car and the drive unit needed to be replaced, the front left strut area makes a popping when turning the wheel, and I can hear something flapping while driving.
- anxman 11y ago
  My 2013 P85 was in for service 4 times before the alignment was fixed correctly. Sticky sunroof. Rattles. 12v battery failure causing full system failure. Motor replacement. Charge port battery broke. 2014 P85D: Total vehicle failure at 218 miles on the odometer. Front motor replaced. Rear motor milling failure. Rear motor replacement again as part incompatible with Autopilot. That all being said, the service is painless and I still love my car. I'm not going back to BMW unless kicking and screaming.
  - tempestn 11y ago
    Painless if there's a service center nearby. This is all making me seriously reconsider buying one when I'd have to travel to get it serviced...
    - anxman 11y ago
      I do live very close to a service center and that certainly is a factor in my ownership. If I didn't live near an SC, I would opt for Ranger service.

briandear 11y ago

I wonder how many CR editors shorter Tesla stock before this was published. It wouldn't even be considered insider trading. I don't really put much stock in CR, unfortunately, the markets did -- quite unfairly actually since most folks buying Teslas aren't doing comparison shopping using CR.

kpwagner 11y ago
The number is zero. Any more than that would be a serious scandal--can't imagine that would be legal. Market manipulation is a pretty serious crime ever since the days of Jay Gould.
- Overtonwindow 11y ago
  I'm not so sure, remember when it was perfectly legal for members of Congress and their staff to use information gained through their jobs to make stock purchases? I mean this was just a few years ago....
  - FireBeyond 11y ago
    When it was? It still is, as far as I recall.
  - aetherson 11y ago
    Is it your contention that Congress also created a special exemption for Consumer Reports? That seems like: a. It credits CR with a lot more power than CR actually has. b. We would have heard about it before now.
    - Overtonwindow 11y ago
      I'm not saying that consumer reports did anything wrong, but insider trading or not, it happens. And places we would not expect. Who would've ever thought that members of Congress in their staff would be allowed to do insider trading? Until someone pointed out that it was illegal some years back, it never crossed my mind. I assumed it was illegal

6stringmerc 11y ago

Okay, I'll be sure to dial back my 'traditionalist' bent when it comes to vehicles and technology, it doesn't help make any points. ...but with the Model S as the 2nd iteration of a Tesla vehicle, and their first "ground up" model, how does this bode for the often stalled release of the Model X? It very much reminds me of issues faced by software companies, but there's some leeway being given to Tesla I don't think is really deserved. As in, if the last release was really buggy over the course of several years of fixes and patches (and the occasional feature removal like the swappable battery packs), then should expectations be tempered? Anyway, I'll keep an eye on the company and what its products mean for the industry as a whole.

digitalzombie 11y ago
> how does this bode for the often stalled release of the Model X? I would wait for version 5 to come out when they work out all the kinks. They'll sell like hotcakes cause CUV is a thing. They were very smart to make their 3rd car a CUV.

tdees40 11y ago

I had a conversation with a (recently-departed) Tesla mechanic the other day (who has had experience working with every other type of car), and he said, "I knew every Tesla owner in the tri-state area on a first-name basis. Everything breaks." He did say that it's getting better with the newer models.

beeboop 11y ago
Everything breaks on other cars, too. I am not really sure what you're getting at with this comment. A mechanic sees nothing but broken cars.
- tdees40 11y ago
  Maybe this wasn't clear in my earlier comment, but he has been a mechanic for lots of other types of cars, and he stated that the reliability was materially worse than other cars.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    I think what people don't get is, A lot of Model S owners have no problem paying to be beta testers. Problems occur, but Tesla is fantastic about fixing them quickly through their service centers.
- lttlrck 11y ago
  mechanics generally do not see the all the cars in a given local area time and time again except for regular servicing.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    There aren't many Teslas in any area.
- hvidgaard 11y ago
  Plenty of people have brought cars before Model S was on sale, and never had a problem. That is reliability. In Denmark we have our fair share of Model S. I live is a smaller city and I see at least 5 every day. I haven't heard about a single Model S without issues, which is the same as a mechanic that states he is on first name with every single Tesla owner in the area. They are behind most other manufactures in production knowledge, and they're using new technology. Of course it'll be near impossible for them to avoid issues altogether.

aresant 11y ago

Interesting that this important line was omitted from the LATimes article: “Despite the problems, [CONSUMER REPORTS] data show that Tesla owner satisfaction is still very high: Ninety-seven percent of owners said they would definitely buy their car again." That is a direct quote from the CS article and featured in other prominent media. (1) I get that a negative CS article could potentially influence brand perception for non-owners but seems somewhat irresponsible to report only the negative side of the story especially when the Tesla LITERALLY ranked #1 in Consumer Reports 2014's Automotive Satisfaction. (1) http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2015/10/20/teslas-perfect-score-from-consumer-reports-doesnt-mean-its-100-reliable-far-from-it/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2015/10/20/teslas-pe... (2) http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095745_tesla-model-s-tops-consumer-reports-customer-satisfaction-index-again http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095745_tesla-model-s-to...

Zelphyr 11y ago
This is why I no longer consume mainstream media news. They ALL have an agenda and that is either to scare you or make you angry. And they obviously don't care about lying by omission in order to garner views.
- jegutman 11y ago
  The scare people is bad, and immediately feels like worse reporting than the "makes you angry kind", but in the long run I'm much more concerned by the trend of news consumption heading towards the "makes me angry" kind. It can't be good for overall mental health.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    It can't be good for the health of society either. All those little anger-inducing tweaks add up, shaping national sentiments and thus voting patterns.

lifeisstillgood 11y ago

So some sales figures from random unchecked websites Tesla: 10k/qtr or 40k cars pa BMW: 26k/mth or 312k car pa So BMW sells 8x tesla (lots of hand wavy around figures), and tesla is selling at 13x BMW Seems like a good bet - Tesla just needs to replace one of the worlds major brands. VW just imploded so there is room in the market without any major shifts. http://jalopnik.com/tesla-is-finally-giving-us-sales-numbers-but-not-the-o-1695499966 http://jalopnik.com/tesla-is-finally-giving-us-sales-numbers... http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1122009 http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1122009

Overtonwindow 11y ago

I still think we should give Tesla the benefit of the doubt. This article feels like a hit piece, again. At the very least, it's a media organization gleefully taking a hit at an innovative company. I support Tesla less because it has great cars, but because it's really trying to build a better car.

brianstorms 11y ago

My 2013 Model S has had its share of issues. My car is on its third drivetrain. Am I unhappy about it? Nope. Was it a hassle? A little. Was it a show-stopper? Nope. Did Tesla always take care of the issues to my satisfaction? Absolutely. Would I buy another Tesla? Not only YES but I cannot imagine ever buying anything else ever again. Tesla's huge weakness continues to be communication between company and customer. That is and always has been my number one area of concern. Not reliability. Except in terms of communications reliability. They are terrible at managing expectations. At providing quick and timely updates. At explaining functionality (ESPECIALLY in the age of autopilot) for not only safe driving but also simply maximizing enjoyment of all the car's capabilities. Tesla as a company is a shambles when it comes to communicating. It unfortunately continues to be a low priority to fix it. I wish CR would ding Tesla for lousy communications. Because customer complaints about their weakness as communicators go unheeded. But I would still buy a Tesla again and plan to.

petersellers 11y ago
As someone who typically drives cars outside of their warranty period, I don't understand the lack of concern about reliability after your 3rd drivetrain. I suppose if you are leasing the car that is one thing, but with that kind of warranty work I would be extremely hesitant to buy a used Tesla.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  The Model S powertrain warranty is 8 years/infinite miles.
  - ansible 11y ago
    My current car is 14 years old. My previous two reached 16 and 17 years. I try to run then as long as possible because cars are money sinks.
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      The future won't be like the past. I don't expect to own a car 8 years from now in any scenario (electric self driving cars on demand). Owning a vehicle just seems like such a waste, so much capital tied up in something that sits around all day. Could you imagine airlines that let aircraft sit idle 95% of the time?

crabasa 11y ago

Comparing Tesla to existing car companies misses the point entirely. Telsa is an energy platform company that is investing in delivering (Supercharger network) and storing (Gigafactory) energy. Cars are certainly the current "killer app" today, but are likely to be followed by many other applications in the future.

blisterpeanuts 11y ago
Yes, it's starting to look as though the cars are merely a shell for the very profitable batteries they're going to be cranking out in Nevada. Perhaps the whole Tesla car idea was a buyout play -- get established, build a name, then sell the whole thing to GM for $30 billion. Once the battery plant has economies of scale, they'll be fueling a whole new generation of electric vehicles by other makers, perhaps including the upcoming Apple and Google auto-pilot offerings (the Nexus car? the iCar?). Then there is the home and small office market for backup power, storage of daytime solar energy, off-grid and remote locations e.g. ranger stations in national parks. It'll be interesting to see how this shakes out.
- dragontamer 11y ago
  Except those uses of energy are better solved by Redox-flow batteries, Compressed Air Energy Storage (CAES), or pumped hydro. http://energy.gov/oe/services/technology-development/energy-storage http://energy.gov/oe/services/technology-development/energy-... A single $5 Billion pumped-hydro plant can store 30 Gigawatt-hours of energy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_Sta... The energy demands of this country will be met by utility companies and their massive infrastructure projects. A few hundred MW-Hrs from Tesla is pretty small in the great scheme of utility energy storage.
  - crabasa 11y ago
    I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that Telsa is competing with utilities to store energy at scale. I meant storing energy for personal use (vehicles/homes/etc). They will certainly source all of their energy from said utility companies.

ck2 11y ago

This is where if companies were honest they'd send out cards "Thank you for beta testing" as maybe a 10th generation owner someday, I say thank you to all previous owners too for spending the money to work out the bugs

ZeroGravitas 11y ago

Oddly, I was just thinking the other day about how Tesla had a reputation for being a bit prototype-y but I hadn't heard anything about it recently, so I concluded they'd massively improved. Based on this they're better, but still not great. Was it not Consumer Reports that had a string of issues with their first model S, or was that another car magazine?

thewopr 11y ago
Are you thinking about the NY times article? http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the-ev-highway.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the...
- ZeroGravitas 11y ago
  No, I remember that as well, but there was someone that had the car and liked it but needed to get lots of parts replaced. Edmund's maybe? Yes that was it: http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/wrap-up.html http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-tes...

bsder 11y ago

Just HFT algorithms attempting to get ahead of each other.

Htsthbjig 11y ago

After you drive a Tesla, you feel everything else is outdated. Today I drove a conventional car and it just feels so clunky and slow. On the other hand, I prefer a normal key for opening my car, a simple, proven tech that works. Tesla has all those "someone had this idea and incorporated it in the car" that is typical of startups. Everything has to be new and this makes reliability suffer in little stupid things, the basic experience is far superior to anything else. The same happens to Apple in new products, you pay extra and you are the Guinea pig on anything new they include, think on ghost screens with retina display.

sharkweek 11y ago
Not that I can afford a Tesla anyways, but... I really like my old Toyota 4runner for the same reason you like a traditional key. I like being able to open it up and follow very clear mechanics while generally understanding what I'm looking at.

pccheck 11y ago

Made in the U.S.A.!

ricardobeat 11y ago

Só Lexus, the one that kills people with a stuck accelerator, is the most reliable. Okay...

rmah 11y ago
I'm pretty sure that was found to be caused by people accidentally hitting the accelerator.

rev_bird 11y ago

I've read most of this stuff before and am still excited to get a Tesla once a more reasonably priced one comes out. One thing keeps bugging me, though: If I wanted to get up tomorrow morning and drive across the country in a gas car, I could do it no problem. When I run out of fuel after ~325 miles, I just stop for 10 minutes at a gas station and head back out on the road. With a Tesla, I need to carefully plan out charging stations <200 miles apart and stay there for what, at least an hour at a time? Do Tesla drivers just not go on road trips?

dcgoss 11y ago
http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger has all the information you need. Realistically, an hour is the higher end of the waiting time - you can get significant range in fractions of that time. Additionally, the navigation software on the Tesla will automatically route your road trip through Superchargers, so you don't have to calculate where you need to stop.
- rev_bird 11y ago
  I knew there was a pretty extensive network of superchargers, but I really underestimated the nav. Really appreciate the reply.
  - hvidgaard 11y ago
    It's a great help, but your original point still stands. With a ICE you can simply point on a map and start driving. With a Tesla, you have to make sure there is super chargers on the way, even if the Nav helps you, you still aren't free to do as you want.

pneumaio 11y ago

Is interesting how much influence Consumer Reports wields relative to other publications that review and rate products. Don't own a Tesla, or have an opinion on their reliability, but wonder sometimes if we don't need a Consumer Reports for Consumer Reports.

datashovel 11y ago

"automatically retractable door handles". Forgive me for being ignorant about this, but as soon as I read this (that not only it exists, but is a "signature feature") I couldn't help but wonder why... Does anyone here know why such a feature would exist? Sure it makes one ooh and ahh when they're about to buy it, and probably the first few months after, but does anyone think if this feature does not perform perfectly, it could only possibly cause more buyer's remorse than anything else?

swampthinker 11y ago
Aerodynamics. Protruding handles are a source of drag, so it was eliminated.
- datashovel 11y ago
  The thing that gets me is I read that it causes people to be locked out of their cars if it doesn't work right. I've seen plenty of cars without protruding handles that don't lock you out of the car. I wonder if anyone would care if they were shown the math behind the amount of drag it reduces vs. the possibility of temporarily being locked out of their cars on random occasion.

anonbanker 11y ago

This is the best time ever to buy Tesla stock. it's being globally shorted.