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Tesla Model S Autopilot Features

378 points by extesy 11y ago

derek 11y ago
> Drivers must keep their hands on the steering wheel. This seems odd, my understanding was that drivers needed to "check in" every so often, not handle the wheel at all times.
- 3JPLW 11y ago
  It seems like it'll create an uncanny valley between real control (the car immediately reacts to every little movement) and soft control (the car kinda-sorta follows what it thinks your intent behind the movement was; sometimes ignoring small deviations). I'm really curious how it feels.
  - henrikschroder 11y ago
    In my car, the self-driving forces are very weak, so it feels more like you're driving on rails. With one hand on the wheel, it's not jerking your hand around, it's softly nudging you to do the right thing, keeping the car in the lane.
- extesy 11y ago
  I think this requirement might be for legal reasons and compliance with DMV rules.
- rebootthesystem 11y ago
  They don't want you surfing the web on your Microsoft Surface yet. :) Patience young Padawan.
  - rebootthesystem 11y ago
    Wow...no sense of humor, I guess.
- eclipxe 11y ago
  It actually doesn't though - it's just a CYA legal sentence thrown in.
spoon16 11y ago
Anyone know how well the lane change feature works in heavy traffic?
- lvspiff 11y ago
  I for one would hope Autosteer isn't engaged in heavy traffic...although ability to autopilot during a sig alert on I10 in downtown LA on a Monday morning does sound worth the price of the car and then some
  - vvanders 11y ago
    TACC in heavy traffic is worth the price of admission alone, I was shocked at how much unconscious cognitive load there is associated with stop and go traffic. You still need to pay attention but I definitely felt much less exhausted after they rolled out that feature. Really excited to see how autopilot performs.
    - jerrac 11y ago
      Has anyone made a TACC add on for normal cars? The self-driving stuff I'm reserving judgement on, but a cruise control that would let me automatically match the speed of the car in front of me would be awesome. I've wanted one for years...
      - spearo77 11y ago
        Subaru has had that technology for years. It came to the USA models about two years ago. They call it "EyeSight" >> http://www.subaru.com/engineering/eyesight.html http://www.subaru.com/engineering/eyesight.html
      - mkempe 11y ago
        Volvo has it.
      - jerrac 11y ago
        Hmm... Looks like Mazda also has something similar. Mazda Radar Cruise Control. I wonder if I can get it set up on my car....
waterlesscloud 11y ago
Here's a video of version 7 in action that someone linked in /r/selfdrivingcars last night. Not super-informative, but interesting to watch anyway. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw7Esg-txR0&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw7Esg-txR0&feature=youtu.be
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- MichaelGG 11y ago
  Interesting that while he's in the left lane the dashboard seems to be warning of a close object to the rear-left (the wall of the lane).
NN88 11y ago
How is this different from Mercedes-Benz's "self driving?"
- dangrossman 11y ago
  The fact that people who bought a car that didn't self-drive now have one is probably the most novel aspect. Lane keeping, adaptive cruise control, parking assist, collision avoidance, etc are all features in other vehicles as well, slowly trickling down to more models each year.
- brk 11y ago
  Does it have to be? (serious question). Right now, IMO, we just need more self-driving cars in general to move the whole concept in terms of acceptability and availability. There is certainly lots of room for innovation, but for now just more product selection alone is valuable.
  - NN88 11y ago
    I'm not being facetious, just curious. Is this novel in any way or just an expansion of technology on the market?
    - anxman 11y ago
      Mercedes requires hands-on for steering. The Model S is nearly capable of fully hands off. Model S can also change lanes with a button.
    - derefr 11y ago
      I think the part that's constantly fascinating about the Tesla cars is that these features are being delivered as software updates. This would be like a software update that switched your phone from 3G to 4G.
      - vincentkriek 11y ago
        Although I agree it's a cool way of rolling out features it's more like buying a phone with 4G capabilities but it not being rolled out until a software update; It's always been possible in the cars they just got the federal approvement now.
Mizza 11y ago
This seems insanely dangerous to me. They're introducing a feature which could, potentially, cause massive highway accidents, but providing documentation that amounts to little more than a glorified README file?: > Auto Lane Change > Changing lanes when Autosteer is engaged is simple: engage the turn signal and Model S will move itself to the adjacent lane when it’s safe to do so. A single sentence! What's the point of having drivers license lessons and testing if the fundamental operation of the vehicle can change so drastically? Am I being a luddite, or does anybody else feel this way?
- mynameisvlad 11y ago
  > What's the point of having drivers license lessons and testing Hah, implying that these are actually useful. The Washington state test and generic lesson plan doesn't even include highway driving. It's a 20 minute test that quite possibly anyone could pass; all I had to do was briefly drive around, and the hardest part was probably parallel parking with a couple of feet of leeway, and controlling your speed down a hill.
  - Mizza 11y ago
    The fact that American licensing isn't very rigorous is not an argument against drivers licenses.
    - mikestew 11y ago
      See my parallel comment: my wife could be blind and still hold a WA state driver's license if she were willing to lie when filling out a form. In which case I'll ask: what's the argument for licensing if we don't even bother to check?
      - Mizza 11y ago
        We do bother to check. If you get pulled over for a traffic violation and you don't have a license, you'll go to jail. These are really not convincing arguments. If anything, it seems the conclusion of what you're saying is that we need to be more rigorous in our testing and validation.
jzwinck 11y ago
> Tesla requires drivers to remain engaged and aware when Autosteer is enabled. Drivers must keep their hands on the steering wheel. Which sense of "must" is used here? The car seems to play an unwinnable game with the driver: keep your hands on the wheel or I'll...what? Disengage autosteer and perhaps crash? With no enforcement mechanism, drivers are incentivized to "abuse" (aka "use") the system as much as it allows.
- chambo622 11y ago
  Videos on YouTube[1] show that the car drives itself even with hands off the wheel. However, I've also read that the car will prompt the driver to keep their hands on the wheel and even turn on emergency flashers/slow to a stop if the driver failed to do so [2] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw7Esg-txR0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw7Esg-txR0 [2] http://www.wired.com/2015/10/tesla-self-driving-over-air-update-live http://www.wired.com/2015/10/tesla-self-driving-over-air-upd...
  - prodmerc 11y ago
    Well, that sounds annoying - what's the point of autopilot if you still have to keep your hands on the steering wheel and pay attention to the traffic... It's like having to hold a button your hands free headset in order to be able to talk :-)
    - tgb 11y ago
      To be a stepping stone for proper legislation and technology that allows more hands-free operation, I'd guess.
    - eclipxe 11y ago
      You don't have to keep your hands on the wheel.
  - eclipxe 11y ago
    It only prompts the driver and turns off if the system can no longer reliably track the lines in the road OR track the car in front of you.
ChicagoBoy11 11y ago
A common phrase in aircraft cockpits nowadays is "What the heck is it doing now?" as pilots have migrated from actually flying the plane to simply being glorified systems managers. While planes have become so, so, so much safer because of all this automation, pilots uncertainty regarding autopilot functioning is a major concern nowadays, and the reason for several accidents. There are very interesting HCI challenges around properly communicating to the pilot/driver "what the heck it is doing" and clearly communicating just how much control the human has or doesn't have at any given point. This "announcement" certainly doesn't inspire any confidence that they have really thought this through deeply enough (I think they probably have, but it should be communicated like it). As a huge Tesla fan, I can't help but feel like I need to hold my breath now and make sure something terrible doesn't happen because of this, and it ends up leading to even more regs setting us back on the path to full car automation.
- S_A_P 11y ago
  Queue the James Bond movie sub plot where an evil villain takes control of his tesla/whatever autonomous car and he has to use a combination of hacker shell commands and sheer brute strength to save both him self and bond girl he was seducing while the car chauffeured him back to his luxury hotel suite...
  - mschuster91 11y ago
    I recommend the Scorpions episode S01E20 "Crossroads", where a similar situation unfolds at the end.
  - gregpilling 11y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKAME9fAA-4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKAME9fAA-4 If the bad guys had only hacked Bond in this scene, it could have been much different!
  - tacojuan 11y ago
    In the newer Ghost in the Shell series, an antagonist writes a virus that takes control of all the cars in the city, causing a massive physical/real-world denial of service.
devit 11y ago
Is it smart enough to not change to a lane going in the opposite direction or change to a "lane" that is actually a ditch off the road?
- anxman 11y ago
  The Model S observes double-lane markers but it's up to the driver to initiate a lane change.
mixmastamyk 11y ago
Unfortunately little mention of front collision avoidance (braking), an important safety feature, which I've waited for on Teslas must be years now. In the forums there's always the guy that says we should "drive better" instead. With that logic, there's little use for safety features at all.
- anxman 11y ago
  http://www.leftlanenews.com/tesla-model-s-gets-emergency-braking-blind-spot-warning.html http://www.leftlanenews.com/tesla-model-s-gets-emergency-bra... Model S has had collision avoidance since March 2015. I think it came in firmware 6.1 and improved in 6.2.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- leelin 11y ago
  That's already been release since the previous version via the traffic aware cruise control and emergency braking. Specifically, the Model S locks onto the car in front of you and matches its speed, maintaining a certain number of car lengths behind it (which you can set). When the car changes lanes, your Model S speeds up a bit to fill the gap, and when a car cuts into the lane, the Model S slows down (although this one is a bit scary). If the car in front comes to a complete stop, the Model S also smoothly slows down into a complete stop.
  - anxman 11y ago
    This is correct. My Model S will fully come to a complete stop on the highway and will alert me if I'm approaching a vehicle too quickly and it senses a risk of collision. I've had the car save me from an accident at least once by applying the brake for me.
    - mixmastamyk 11y ago
      Nice, and it works without the need for cruise control to be on, and at all speeds?
mmerkes 11y ago
The auto-park feature would be super handy, but I don't see an auto-unpark feature... I look forward to seeing Teslas stuck in amazingly small parking spots!
- lutorm 11y ago
  The phase space for getting out of a parking spot is substantially larger than that for getting into one...
mathrawka 11y ago
As someone who spends a fair amount of time traveling between countries that drive on different sides of the road... I am always getting the turn signal and windshield wipers mixed up. So I doubt I can use the auto lane change feature.
- yen223 11y ago
  > I am always getting the turn signal and windshield wipers mixed up That happens even between cars that drive on the same side. It seems different car manufacturers have different standards as to where the turn signal and windshield wiper should be.
- jessaustin 11y ago
  I know what you mean! Everyone told me that I'd have trouble shifting gears with my left hand, but that wasn't a problem at all. The wipers, however, went on every time I turned.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  My biggest problem with RHD is that my right arm smacks into the door when I want to change gears for the first 50 km or so. After that it usually gets better.
sandworm101 11y ago
Note two words absent from the OP: "Speed limit". This machine will keep pace with traffic. OK. Does that mean it will break speed limits? Unless it is scanning for each and every potential road sign, it simply cannot be respond to arbitrary/temporary limits. The determination of the legal limit on a piece of road is a complex task. Road construction, local conditions, sunrise/set, time of year (school zones) and even weather can be a factor. And let us not forget "Speed limit X when children on road". You need some serious cpu time to work out whether that person walking along the road is a schoolgirl or a construction worker. Imho any system not capable of determining the speed limit accurately is a legal liability. Have fun with the tickets. >eliminating the need for drivers to worry about complex and difficult parking maneuvers. No. Parallel parking is not a complex nor difficult maneuver. It is total beginner territory. No lives are at risk. With a decent bumper, even risk of property damage is minimal. Anyone not capable of learning to parallel park probably shouldn't be behind the wheel of much anything. Anyone buying this car to avoid such mundane tasks isn't someone with whom I want to share the road.
- Afforess 11y ago
  > No. Parallel parking is not a complex nor difficult maneuver. It is total beginner territory. You seem to be implying that most drivers are past the beginner level of skill in driving. I have not found this to be the case.
- halosghost 11y ago
  Actually, my dad has a Model S and one of the coolest features is that it actually does scan for speed limit signs and tell you the current speed limit on the dashboard (you can configure a limit over the speed limit for when this should show up). Now, I have no idea whether or not this feature is utilized for autopilot (though I would kind of assume it would be), but it is there :)
  - sandworm101 11y ago
    When I teach an intro law course I use speed limits to explain why the law is so complex. It's much more than signs. The system you describe appears only informational, the car isn't the one picking the speed. It's a big step for a manufacturer to sell a product that will initiate a speed based on it's own determinations.
dognotdog 11y ago
While the over-the-air update is novel, these features all exist on current luxury and even some middle class vehicles as part of driver assistance option packages. They're typically called Lane Keeping Assistant, Adaptive Cruise Control, Blindspot Warning, Automated Parking, Traffic Sign Recognition, etc. The emergency steering bit is interesting, though no further details are provided, as it requires the car to ensure that there is a safe space to steer into, which is dicey for a forward collision emergency braking system, so I'd conjecture it is connected to the side collision warning, and allows collision avoidance if there is enough space in the current lane.
- aerovistae 11y ago
  I see this strange contradiction where some people are saying "this is nothing new, other manufacturers had this years ago" and yet somehow other manufacturers don't get reaction videos on youtube and don't get to the top of hacker news and reddit....it seems very clear to me that what Tesla has done is above and beyond anything in the past. If this already existed, nobody would really care. You could make the whole brand argument, like with Apple releasing the iPad, but....I simply disagree. Tesla deserves the credit they're getting.
  - pxtang 11y ago
    Well, that's because they're Tesla. Benz has had very similar features on their higher-end cars, and it was well received (I think) in the automotive industry, but not the tech community, because Tesla is more well known in tech compared to Benz.
    - gregpilling 11y ago
      and Hyundai https://youtu.be/Xbjdmw8D9-Y https://youtu.be/Xbjdmw8D9-Y
      - eclipxe 11y ago
        Yeah, great marketing video. Here is reality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb3TLRaMVIY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb3TLRaMVIY Ping pong back and forth in the lane, no curve steering. Bleh.
lightcatcher 11y ago
What sensors does the Model S have? I'm surprised that Tesla sold a car with enough sensors for semi-autonomous operation without the actual software until now. For those with more knowledge about cars, how does the sensor array in the Model S compare with similar models from companies such as BMW, Audi, Mercedes-Benz? I'm interested in knowing if it's software or the already installed hardware holding back recent luxury cars from similar capabilities. Also, does anyone know anything about the (digital) security features of the Tesla? This announcement from Tesla makes it clear that the actual control of the vehicle can be modified by an over the air software update. With the recent Jeep hack[0] in mind, does any know if something similar is possible on a Tesla, or if there are some safeguards such as signed updates? As one of the most computerized cars on the market, I tend to think that the Tesla cars might also be some of the most (maliciously) hackable cars on the market. [0] http://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-highway/ http://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-high...
- dognotdog 11y ago
  Long story short, it's both hardware and software holding things back. On the hardware side, there is a lot going on with solid state radar and lidar sensors improving by the minute, while prices are down a factor of 10-100 from even 5 years ago. There are now sensors available for research and product development that in 5 years time will allow a semi high-end production car to robustly drive all traffic conditions on a highway. Car makers (and suppliers) have to learn how to make software to make optimal use of the existing hardware, but they've got a long way to go, still. Every major player nowadays has a research center in Palo Alto or whereabouts, seemingly trying to learn how to do this via osmosis, but it will take some time until they really understand how to keep pace with information technology, and how to bring it into their mammuth manufacturing and legal frameworks. Nevermind the necessary mindset to pull it off.
  - poutine 11y ago
    The software exists today to allow a production VW Golf with stock sensors to self drive on the highway: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHyw58hn4sM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHyw58hn4sM This stuff is coming fast...
OopsCriticality 11y ago
I was surprised to find that the Autopilot feature is a paid $2500 upgrade, according to one source.[0] I'm not surprised that Tesla is charging for the upgrade, but that in all the press and enthusiast coverage of Tesla, I don't recall it being mentioned before. [0] http://blog.caranddriver.com/elon-take-the-wheel-we-test-teslas-new-autopilot-feature/ http://blog.caranddriver.com/elon-take-the-wheel-we-test-tes...
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- adanto6840 11y ago
  I may be wrong, but I think that they removed the "Tech Package" option (offered at initial purchase) and now instead offer the "Auto-Pilot Features" option. I'm not sure if they install the hardware sensors regardless & only control access via software, though, but I'd be curious about this for sure. Anyone know? IIRC, when the Auto-Pilot hardware/option was originally released the "Tech Package" was a pre-req to buying the "Auto-Pilot" option.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - sowbug 11y ago
    "Tech Package with Autopilot" used to be a $4,250 option including a bunch of small features such as LED cornering lights, fog lights, and a rear trunk that opens remotely. I don't know whether all those differences were actually just access-controlled in software. For the autopilot features, the difference was only software. Even before the Autopilot option was first available to order in October 2014, cars were being silently shipped with Autopilot-ready hardware for several months. For those cars, it's possible to call up Tesla with a credit card and enable the feature over the phone.
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      > including a bunch of small features such as LED cornering lights, fog lights, and a rear trunk that opens remotely. These were moved to the Premium Interior and Lighting Package ($3000).
joosters 11y ago
Releasing driving assistance features as a 'beta'? What on earth does that mean here? Are the features ready to use or not? Do Tesla warrant that they work and are safe? Maybe they expect drivers to treat it like beta software - "Please don't use these features in production cars. Make sure you keep backups of all drivers and passengers in case of bugs."
- viraptor 11y ago
  Since it had to go through regulatory approvals, I'd expect it's not 'beta' as in 'potentially unsafe'. It's more of: it may require you taking over more often than we'd like to.
  - joosters 11y ago
    I'd put 'having to unexpectedly take over driving' into the 'potentially unsafe' category.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    > it may require you taking over more often than we'd like to. That spells 'not ready for production and release on public roads'.
    - viraptor 11y ago
      Response to both you and joosters: I think you're being too strict here. Who knows what the threshold is? Maybe it works 100% of the time on highways. Maybe has problems only when there are no lines on the street? It's not a completely unsupervised technology and is not advertised as such. You can't even legally treat it as such - you have to be prepared to take over at any point. Compare it to the regular cruise control, already present in production for years. Would you say cruise control is not ready for production or release on public roads? It's a tiny subset of what Tesla's update does. (and it doesn't even tell you when you need to take over)
      - jacquesm 11y ago
grecy 11y ago
Videos are starting to show up on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yCAZWdqX_Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yCAZWdqX_Y VERY impressive.
capkutay 11y ago
This is a cool technical achievement, but I don't see the practical use nor does it seem like a big win for tesla drives. So it allows drives to kind of tune out while driving on the freeway?
verelo 11y ago
All these controls sound very similar to those in my current year Mercedes...although i would be hopeful that the autosteer on offer here is better than the Distronic plus "lane assist" in the Merc, which while OK, does not do a great job on less than gentle turns above 50km/hr (but its actually great below that speed - to the point I wonder why i'm even in the seat, in particular in stop-start traffic situations). It certainly sounds similar from the "hands must be on the wheel" requirement. I look forward to the next step up from all the car makers, which is clearly the car driving on its own in a much more confident way, with the driver simply there to manage exceptions as opposed to being 'assisted' by technology as is with the current implementations.
- eclipxe 11y ago
  The hands must be on the wheels part is a CYA statement. There are many videos released today that show that you really do not have to have your hands on the wheel. Mercedes' system requires driver input every 14 seconds.
  - csours 11y ago
    I wonder why 14? Lucky for dwarves?
abalone 11y ago
Any thoughts on the potential manufacturer liability for software bugs that lead to accidents? Certainly there are a lot of precedents with anti-lock braking systems, cruise control, etc. But this stuff seems like such a massive expansion of complexity of software control I wonder what will go down in the courts when the inevitable happens.
thoman23 11y ago
"Autosteering (Beta)" That must be the single most frightening use of the Beta label in history.
- dingo_bat 11y ago
  And in the explanation it says "Driver must keep hands on the steering wheel". Then how will lane change on turn signal happen?
51Cards 11y ago
"Drivers must keep their hands on the steering wheel." This video would seem to indicate otherwise? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yCAZWdqX_Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yCAZWdqX_Y
- eclipxe 11y ago
  Correct, that statement is just for cover. You don't really have to keep your hands on the wheel at all.
Animats 11y ago
This is similar to what other high-end cars have, lane-keeping and smart cruise control, usable only in freeway-type situations. "Drivers must keep their hands on the steering wheel." Mercedes calls this "Active Lane Keeping Assist", and has offered it for several years now. Here's someone using it with a can taped to the steering wheel to defeat the "hands on steering wheel" requirement.[1] All the major manufacturers have demoed this. This is NTSB level 2 automation, (Combined Function Automation).[2] ("An example ... is adaptive cruise control in combination with lane centering.") Google is at level 3 (Limited Self-Driving Automation), and going for level 4 (Full Self-Driving Automation). The big problem at Level 2 is keeping drivers from using it when they shouldn't. Level 2 doesn't understand intersections at all, for example. Or pedestrians, bicycles, baby carriages, deer, snow, etc. That's why the major manufacturers are being so cautious about launching it into a world of driving idiots. Volvo has now officially taken the position that if an autonomous car of theirs gets into a crash, it's Volvo's fault and they will accept liability.[3] Now that Volvo has said that, other car manufacturers will probably have to commit to that as well. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv9JYqhFV-M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv9JYqhFV-M [2] http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Press+Releases/U.S.+Department+of+Transportation+Releases+Policy+on+Automated+Vehicle+Development http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Press+Releases/U.S.+Departm... [3] http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/215832-volvo-well-take-the-blame-if-our-self-driving-cars-crash http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/215832-volvo-well-take-th...
roflchoppa 11y ago
Yo if anyone at tesla is reading this, can you implement a feature for the car to move over into the far side of the lane when people are lane-splitting? People already do it manually on the highway, but if this car also did it would be neat. thx and look twice for motorcycles.
tonylemesmer 11y ago
To me a big issue is the perception of the autonomous driving mode to other road users. How will other drivers and pedestrians know that this car is being driven automatically and treat it accordingly? In the Bosch video[1] (also linked elsewhere on this thread), the system jumps out of autonomous mode at the first junction. The driver has to re-engage it. Drivers who are not closely monitoring the car situation might not realise what's going on and take 5-10 seconds to realise they need to re-engage autonomous mode or to take over fully. Some following-drivers will get agitated by this, in the same way that some do with elderly or learner drivers and make silly impatient manoeuvres. If the state of the autonomous car is clearly communicated to other road users then they might be prepared to make allowances. During this transition phase of mostly human drivers vs. autonomous drivers it will be these situations that frame people's perception of the merits of autonomous vehicles. That and how the systems react to dangerous swerving or lane changing or conflict situations where collisions are impossible to avoid. The "Google system" or the "Tesla system" will be tested millions of times a day and face intense public scrutiny whereas human drivers are treated individually. [1] https://youtu.be/KwD1hjlbhwU https://youtu.be/KwD1hjlbhwU
rl3 11y ago
I wonder how the parallel parking system copes with tailgaters rendering a specific spot untenable.
Shivetya 11y ago
Are they going to take responsibility for accidents like Volvo will? While none of the features revealed are new to the industry he does a great job of marketing it. The ace Tesla has is that over the air updates, something the other manufacturers will need to work out, hopefully with an industry wide standard that can be regulated properly to insure safety, security, and liability.
blisterpeanuts 11y ago
This is fantastic. I'm psyched, not just because of the cool technology, but also because it will finally spur the public to demand more frequent and accurate road striping. Massachusetts has terrible road striping; it seems as though they get around to it about every four or five years, waiting until the lanes and ramp markings are beyond dangerous. This has been irritating me for years. And then they seem to use some kind of cheap paint that wears off quickly. Public works job security, I suppose. But automated lane navigation will require clear markings. Hundreds of thousands of deaths later, we just might finally get a safer road system. Pathetic, but better late than never, I guess.
- josefresco 11y ago
  I doubt relying on lane markers alone will be enough given the variety of markers, and possible road construction that will be encountered by these cars.

378 points by extesy 11y ago

derek 11y ago

> Drivers must keep their hands on the steering wheel. This seems odd, my understanding was that drivers needed to "check in" every so often, not handle the wheel at all times.

3JPLW 11y ago
It seems like it'll create an uncanny valley between real control (the car immediately reacts to every little movement) and soft control (the car kinda-sorta follows what it thinks your intent behind the movement was; sometimes ignoring small deviations). I'm really curious how it feels.
- henrikschroder 11y ago
  In my car, the self-driving forces are very weak, so it feels more like you're driving on rails. With one hand on the wheel, it's not jerking your hand around, it's softly nudging you to do the right thing, keeping the car in the lane.
extesy 11y ago
I think this requirement might be for legal reasons and compliance with DMV rules.
rebootthesystem 11y ago
They don't want you surfing the web on your Microsoft Surface yet. :) Patience young Padawan.
- rebootthesystem 11y ago
  Wow...no sense of humor, I guess.
eclipxe 11y ago
It actually doesn't though - it's just a CYA legal sentence thrown in.

spoon16 11y ago

Anyone know how well the lane change feature works in heavy traffic?

lvspiff 11y ago
I for one would hope Autosteer isn't engaged in heavy traffic...although ability to autopilot during a sig alert on I10 in downtown LA on a Monday morning does sound worth the price of the car and then some
- vvanders 11y ago
  TACC in heavy traffic is worth the price of admission alone, I was shocked at how much unconscious cognitive load there is associated with stop and go traffic. You still need to pay attention but I definitely felt much less exhausted after they rolled out that feature. Really excited to see how autopilot performs.
  - jerrac 11y ago
    Has anyone made a TACC add on for normal cars? The self-driving stuff I'm reserving judgement on, but a cruise control that would let me automatically match the speed of the car in front of me would be awesome. I've wanted one for years...
    - spearo77 11y ago
      Subaru has had that technology for years. It came to the USA models about two years ago. They call it "EyeSight" >> http://www.subaru.com/engineering/eyesight.html http://www.subaru.com/engineering/eyesight.html
    - mkempe 11y ago
      Volvo has it.
    - jerrac 11y ago
      Hmm... Looks like Mazda also has something similar. Mazda Radar Cruise Control. I wonder if I can get it set up on my car....

waterlesscloud 11y ago

Here's a video of version 7 in action that someone linked in /r/selfdrivingcars last night. Not super-informative, but interesting to watch anyway. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw7Esg-txR0&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw7Esg-txR0&feature=youtu.be

deleted 11y ago
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MichaelGG 11y ago
Interesting that while he's in the left lane the dashboard seems to be warning of a close object to the rear-left (the wall of the lane).

NN88 11y ago

How is this different from Mercedes-Benz's "self driving?"

dangrossman 11y ago
The fact that people who bought a car that didn't self-drive now have one is probably the most novel aspect. Lane keeping, adaptive cruise control, parking assist, collision avoidance, etc are all features in other vehicles as well, slowly trickling down to more models each year.
brk 11y ago
Does it have to be? (serious question). Right now, IMO, we just need more self-driving cars in general to move the whole concept in terms of acceptability and availability. There is certainly lots of room for innovation, but for now just more product selection alone is valuable.
- NN88 11y ago
  I'm not being facetious, just curious. Is this novel in any way or just an expansion of technology on the market?
  - anxman 11y ago
    Mercedes requires hands-on for steering. The Model S is nearly capable of fully hands off. Model S can also change lanes with a button.
  - derefr 11y ago
    I think the part that's constantly fascinating about the Tesla cars is that these features are being delivered as software updates. This would be like a software update that switched your phone from 3G to 4G.
    - vincentkriek 11y ago
      Although I agree it's a cool way of rolling out features it's more like buying a phone with 4G capabilities but it not being rolled out until a software update; It's always been possible in the cars they just got the federal approvement now.

Mizza 11y ago

This seems insanely dangerous to me. They're introducing a feature which could, potentially, cause massive highway accidents, but providing documentation that amounts to little more than a glorified README file?: > Auto Lane Change > Changing lanes when Autosteer is engaged is simple: engage the turn signal and Model S will move itself to the adjacent lane when it’s safe to do so. A single sentence! What's the point of having drivers license lessons and testing if the fundamental operation of the vehicle can change so drastically? Am I being a luddite, or does anybody else feel this way?

mynameisvlad 11y ago
> What's the point of having drivers license lessons and testing Hah, implying that these are actually useful. The Washington state test and generic lesson plan doesn't even include highway driving. It's a 20 minute test that quite possibly anyone could pass; all I had to do was briefly drive around, and the hardest part was probably parallel parking with a couple of feet of leeway, and controlling your speed down a hill.
- Mizza 11y ago
  The fact that American licensing isn't very rigorous is not an argument against drivers licenses.
  - mikestew 11y ago
    See my parallel comment: my wife could be blind and still hold a WA state driver's license if she were willing to lie when filling out a form. In which case I'll ask: what's the argument for licensing if we don't even bother to check?
    - Mizza 11y ago
      We do bother to check. If you get pulled over for a traffic violation and you don't have a license, you'll go to jail. These are really not convincing arguments. If anything, it seems the conclusion of what you're saying is that we need to be more rigorous in our testing and validation.

jzwinck 11y ago

> Tesla requires drivers to remain engaged and aware when Autosteer is enabled. Drivers must keep their hands on the steering wheel. Which sense of "must" is used here? The car seems to play an unwinnable game with the driver: keep your hands on the wheel or I'll...what? Disengage autosteer and perhaps crash? With no enforcement mechanism, drivers are incentivized to "abuse" (aka "use") the system as much as it allows.

chambo622 11y ago
Videos on YouTube[1] show that the car drives itself even with hands off the wheel. However, I've also read that the car will prompt the driver to keep their hands on the wheel and even turn on emergency flashers/slow to a stop if the driver failed to do so [2] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw7Esg-txR0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw7Esg-txR0 [2] http://www.wired.com/2015/10/tesla-self-driving-over-air-update-live http://www.wired.com/2015/10/tesla-self-driving-over-air-upd...
- prodmerc 11y ago
  Well, that sounds annoying - what's the point of autopilot if you still have to keep your hands on the steering wheel and pay attention to the traffic... It's like having to hold a button your hands free headset in order to be able to talk :-)
  - tgb 11y ago
    To be a stepping stone for proper legislation and technology that allows more hands-free operation, I'd guess.
  - eclipxe 11y ago
    You don't have to keep your hands on the wheel.
- eclipxe 11y ago
  It only prompts the driver and turns off if the system can no longer reliably track the lines in the road OR track the car in front of you.

ChicagoBoy11 11y ago

A common phrase in aircraft cockpits nowadays is "What the heck is it doing now?" as pilots have migrated from actually flying the plane to simply being glorified systems managers. While planes have become so, so, so much safer because of all this automation, pilots uncertainty regarding autopilot functioning is a major concern nowadays, and the reason for several accidents. There are very interesting HCI challenges around properly communicating to the pilot/driver "what the heck it is doing" and clearly communicating just how much control the human has or doesn't have at any given point. This "announcement" certainly doesn't inspire any confidence that they have really thought this through deeply enough (I think they probably have, but it should be communicated like it). As a huge Tesla fan, I can't help but feel like I need to hold my breath now and make sure something terrible doesn't happen because of this, and it ends up leading to even more regs setting us back on the path to full car automation.

S_A_P 11y ago
Queue the James Bond movie sub plot where an evil villain takes control of his tesla/whatever autonomous car and he has to use a combination of hacker shell commands and sheer brute strength to save both him self and bond girl he was seducing while the car chauffeured him back to his luxury hotel suite...
- mschuster91 11y ago
  I recommend the Scorpions episode S01E20 "Crossroads", where a similar situation unfolds at the end.
- gregpilling 11y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKAME9fAA-4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKAME9fAA-4 If the bad guys had only hacked Bond in this scene, it could have been much different!
- tacojuan 11y ago
  In the newer Ghost in the Shell series, an antagonist writes a virus that takes control of all the cars in the city, causing a massive physical/real-world denial of service.

devit 11y ago

Is it smart enough to not change to a lane going in the opposite direction or change to a "lane" that is actually a ditch off the road?

anxman 11y ago
The Model S observes double-lane markers but it's up to the driver to initiate a lane change.

mixmastamyk 11y ago

Unfortunately little mention of front collision avoidance (braking), an important safety feature, which I've waited for on Teslas must be years now. In the forums there's always the guy that says we should "drive better" instead. With that logic, there's little use for safety features at all.

anxman 11y ago
http://www.leftlanenews.com/tesla-model-s-gets-emergency-braking-blind-spot-warning.html http://www.leftlanenews.com/tesla-model-s-gets-emergency-bra... Model S has had collision avoidance since March 2015. I think it came in firmware 6.1 and improved in 6.2.
- deleted 11y ago
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leelin 11y ago
That's already been release since the previous version via the traffic aware cruise control and emergency braking. Specifically, the Model S locks onto the car in front of you and matches its speed, maintaining a certain number of car lengths behind it (which you can set). When the car changes lanes, your Model S speeds up a bit to fill the gap, and when a car cuts into the lane, the Model S slows down (although this one is a bit scary). If the car in front comes to a complete stop, the Model S also smoothly slows down into a complete stop.
- anxman 11y ago
  This is correct. My Model S will fully come to a complete stop on the highway and will alert me if I'm approaching a vehicle too quickly and it senses a risk of collision. I've had the car save me from an accident at least once by applying the brake for me.
  - mixmastamyk 11y ago
    Nice, and it works without the need for cruise control to be on, and at all speeds?

mmerkes 11y ago

The auto-park feature would be super handy, but I don't see an auto-unpark feature... I look forward to seeing Teslas stuck in amazingly small parking spots!

lutorm 11y ago
The phase space for getting out of a parking spot is substantially larger than that for getting into one...

mathrawka 11y ago

As someone who spends a fair amount of time traveling between countries that drive on different sides of the road... I am always getting the turn signal and windshield wipers mixed up. So I doubt I can use the auto lane change feature.

yen223 11y ago
> I am always getting the turn signal and windshield wipers mixed up That happens even between cars that drive on the same side. It seems different car manufacturers have different standards as to where the turn signal and windshield wiper should be.
jessaustin 11y ago
I know what you mean! Everyone told me that I'd have trouble shifting gears with my left hand, but that wasn't a problem at all. The wipers, however, went on every time I turned.
jacquesm 11y ago
My biggest problem with RHD is that my right arm smacks into the door when I want to change gears for the first 50 km or so. After that it usually gets better.

sandworm101 11y ago

Note two words absent from the OP: "Speed limit". This machine will keep pace with traffic. OK. Does that mean it will break speed limits? Unless it is scanning for each and every potential road sign, it simply cannot be respond to arbitrary/temporary limits. The determination of the legal limit on a piece of road is a complex task. Road construction, local conditions, sunrise/set, time of year (school zones) and even weather can be a factor. And let us not forget "Speed limit X when children on road". You need some serious cpu time to work out whether that person walking along the road is a schoolgirl or a construction worker. Imho any system not capable of determining the speed limit accurately is a legal liability. Have fun with the tickets. >eliminating the need for drivers to worry about complex and difficult parking maneuvers. No. Parallel parking is not a complex nor difficult maneuver. It is total beginner territory. No lives are at risk. With a decent bumper, even risk of property damage is minimal. Anyone not capable of learning to parallel park probably shouldn't be behind the wheel of much anything. Anyone buying this car to avoid such mundane tasks isn't someone with whom I want to share the road.

Afforess 11y ago
> No. Parallel parking is not a complex nor difficult maneuver. It is total beginner territory. You seem to be implying that most drivers are past the beginner level of skill in driving. I have not found this to be the case.
halosghost 11y ago
Actually, my dad has a Model S and one of the coolest features is that it actually does scan for speed limit signs and tell you the current speed limit on the dashboard (you can configure a limit over the speed limit for when this should show up). Now, I have no idea whether or not this feature is utilized for autopilot (though I would kind of assume it would be), but it is there :)
- sandworm101 11y ago
  When I teach an intro law course I use speed limits to explain why the law is so complex. It's much more than signs. The system you describe appears only informational, the car isn't the one picking the speed. It's a big step for a manufacturer to sell a product that will initiate a speed based on it's own determinations.

dognotdog 11y ago

While the over-the-air update is novel, these features all exist on current luxury and even some middle class vehicles as part of driver assistance option packages. They're typically called Lane Keeping Assistant, Adaptive Cruise Control, Blindspot Warning, Automated Parking, Traffic Sign Recognition, etc. The emergency steering bit is interesting, though no further details are provided, as it requires the car to ensure that there is a safe space to steer into, which is dicey for a forward collision emergency braking system, so I'd conjecture it is connected to the side collision warning, and allows collision avoidance if there is enough space in the current lane.

aerovistae 11y ago
I see this strange contradiction where some people are saying "this is nothing new, other manufacturers had this years ago" and yet somehow other manufacturers don't get reaction videos on youtube and don't get to the top of hacker news and reddit....it seems very clear to me that what Tesla has done is above and beyond anything in the past. If this already existed, nobody would really care. You could make the whole brand argument, like with Apple releasing the iPad, but....I simply disagree. Tesla deserves the credit they're getting.
- pxtang 11y ago
  Well, that's because they're Tesla. Benz has had very similar features on their higher-end cars, and it was well received (I think) in the automotive industry, but not the tech community, because Tesla is more well known in tech compared to Benz.
  - gregpilling 11y ago
    and Hyundai https://youtu.be/Xbjdmw8D9-Y https://youtu.be/Xbjdmw8D9-Y
    - eclipxe 11y ago
      Yeah, great marketing video. Here is reality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb3TLRaMVIY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb3TLRaMVIY Ping pong back and forth in the lane, no curve steering. Bleh.

lightcatcher 11y ago

What sensors does the Model S have? I'm surprised that Tesla sold a car with enough sensors for semi-autonomous operation without the actual software until now. For those with more knowledge about cars, how does the sensor array in the Model S compare with similar models from companies such as BMW, Audi, Mercedes-Benz? I'm interested in knowing if it's software or the already installed hardware holding back recent luxury cars from similar capabilities. Also, does anyone know anything about the (digital) security features of the Tesla? This announcement from Tesla makes it clear that the actual control of the vehicle can be modified by an over the air software update. With the recent Jeep hack[0] in mind, does any know if something similar is possible on a Tesla, or if there are some safeguards such as signed updates? As one of the most computerized cars on the market, I tend to think that the Tesla cars might also be some of the most (maliciously) hackable cars on the market. [0] http://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-highway/ http://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-high...

dognotdog 11y ago
Long story short, it's both hardware and software holding things back. On the hardware side, there is a lot going on with solid state radar and lidar sensors improving by the minute, while prices are down a factor of 10-100 from even 5 years ago. There are now sensors available for research and product development that in 5 years time will allow a semi high-end production car to robustly drive all traffic conditions on a highway. Car makers (and suppliers) have to learn how to make software to make optimal use of the existing hardware, but they've got a long way to go, still. Every major player nowadays has a research center in Palo Alto or whereabouts, seemingly trying to learn how to do this via osmosis, but it will take some time until they really understand how to keep pace with information technology, and how to bring it into their mammuth manufacturing and legal frameworks. Nevermind the necessary mindset to pull it off.
- poutine 11y ago
  The software exists today to allow a production VW Golf with stock sensors to self drive on the highway: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHyw58hn4sM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHyw58hn4sM This stuff is coming fast...

OopsCriticality 11y ago

I was surprised to find that the Autopilot feature is a paid $2500 upgrade, according to one source.[0] I'm not surprised that Tesla is charging for the upgrade, but that in all the press and enthusiast coverage of Tesla, I don't recall it being mentioned before. [0] http://blog.caranddriver.com/elon-take-the-wheel-we-test-teslas-new-autopilot-feature/ http://blog.caranddriver.com/elon-take-the-wheel-we-test-tes...

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adanto6840 11y ago
I may be wrong, but I think that they removed the "Tech Package" option (offered at initial purchase) and now instead offer the "Auto-Pilot Features" option. I'm not sure if they install the hardware sensors regardless & only control access via software, though, but I'd be curious about this for sure. Anyone know? IIRC, when the Auto-Pilot hardware/option was originally released the "Tech Package" was a pre-req to buying the "Auto-Pilot" option.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- sowbug 11y ago
  "Tech Package with Autopilot" used to be a $4,250 option including a bunch of small features such as LED cornering lights, fog lights, and a rear trunk that opens remotely. I don't know whether all those differences were actually just access-controlled in software. For the autopilot features, the difference was only software. Even before the Autopilot option was first available to order in October 2014, cars were being silently shipped with Autopilot-ready hardware for several months. For those cars, it's possible to call up Tesla with a credit card and enable the feature over the phone.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    > including a bunch of small features such as LED cornering lights, fog lights, and a rear trunk that opens remotely. These were moved to the Premium Interior and Lighting Package ($3000).

joosters 11y ago

Releasing driving assistance features as a 'beta'? What on earth does that mean here? Are the features ready to use or not? Do Tesla warrant that they work and are safe? Maybe they expect drivers to treat it like beta software - "Please don't use these features in production cars. Make sure you keep backups of all drivers and passengers in case of bugs."

viraptor 11y ago
Since it had to go through regulatory approvals, I'd expect it's not 'beta' as in 'potentially unsafe'. It's more of: it may require you taking over more often than we'd like to.
- joosters 11y ago
  I'd put 'having to unexpectedly take over driving' into the 'potentially unsafe' category.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  > it may require you taking over more often than we'd like to. That spells 'not ready for production and release on public roads'.
  - viraptor 11y ago
    Response to both you and joosters: I think you're being too strict here. Who knows what the threshold is? Maybe it works 100% of the time on highways. Maybe has problems only when there are no lines on the street? It's not a completely unsupervised technology and is not advertised as such. You can't even legally treat it as such - you have to be prepared to take over at any point. Compare it to the regular cruise control, already present in production for years. Would you say cruise control is not ready for production or release on public roads? It's a tiny subset of what Tesla's update does. (and it doesn't even tell you when you need to take over)
    - jacquesm 11y ago

grecy 11y ago

Videos are starting to show up on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yCAZWdqX_Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yCAZWdqX_Y VERY impressive.

capkutay 11y ago

This is a cool technical achievement, but I don't see the practical use nor does it seem like a big win for tesla drives. So it allows drives to kind of tune out while driving on the freeway?

verelo 11y ago

All these controls sound very similar to those in my current year Mercedes...although i would be hopeful that the autosteer on offer here is better than the Distronic plus "lane assist" in the Merc, which while OK, does not do a great job on less than gentle turns above 50km/hr (but its actually great below that speed - to the point I wonder why i'm even in the seat, in particular in stop-start traffic situations). It certainly sounds similar from the "hands must be on the wheel" requirement. I look forward to the next step up from all the car makers, which is clearly the car driving on its own in a much more confident way, with the driver simply there to manage exceptions as opposed to being 'assisted' by technology as is with the current implementations.

eclipxe 11y ago
The hands must be on the wheels part is a CYA statement. There are many videos released today that show that you really do not have to have your hands on the wheel. Mercedes' system requires driver input every 14 seconds.
- csours 11y ago
  I wonder why 14? Lucky for dwarves?

abalone 11y ago

Any thoughts on the potential manufacturer liability for software bugs that lead to accidents? Certainly there are a lot of precedents with anti-lock braking systems, cruise control, etc. But this stuff seems like such a massive expansion of complexity of software control I wonder what will go down in the courts when the inevitable happens.

thoman23 11y ago

"Autosteering (Beta)" That must be the single most frightening use of the Beta label in history.

dingo_bat 11y ago
And in the explanation it says "Driver must keep hands on the steering wheel". Then how will lane change on turn signal happen?

51Cards 11y ago

"Drivers must keep their hands on the steering wheel." This video would seem to indicate otherwise? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yCAZWdqX_Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yCAZWdqX_Y

eclipxe 11y ago
Correct, that statement is just for cover. You don't really have to keep your hands on the wheel at all.

Animats 11y ago

This is similar to what other high-end cars have, lane-keeping and smart cruise control, usable only in freeway-type situations. "Drivers must keep their hands on the steering wheel." Mercedes calls this "Active Lane Keeping Assist", and has offered it for several years now. Here's someone using it with a can taped to the steering wheel to defeat the "hands on steering wheel" requirement.[1] All the major manufacturers have demoed this. This is NTSB level 2 automation, (Combined Function Automation).[2] ("An example ... is adaptive cruise control in combination with lane centering.") Google is at level 3 (Limited Self-Driving Automation), and going for level 4 (Full Self-Driving Automation). The big problem at Level 2 is keeping drivers from using it when they shouldn't. Level 2 doesn't understand intersections at all, for example. Or pedestrians, bicycles, baby carriages, deer, snow, etc. That's why the major manufacturers are being so cautious about launching it into a world of driving idiots. Volvo has now officially taken the position that if an autonomous car of theirs gets into a crash, it's Volvo's fault and they will accept liability.[3] Now that Volvo has said that, other car manufacturers will probably have to commit to that as well. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv9JYqhFV-M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv9JYqhFV-M [2] http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Press+Releases/U.S.+Department+of+Transportation+Releases+Policy+on+Automated+Vehicle+Development http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Press+Releases/U.S.+Departm... [3] http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/215832-volvo-well-take-the-blame-if-our-self-driving-cars-crash http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/215832-volvo-well-take-th...

roflchoppa 11y ago

Yo if anyone at tesla is reading this, can you implement a feature for the car to move over into the far side of the lane when people are lane-splitting? People already do it manually on the highway, but if this car also did it would be neat. thx and look twice for motorcycles.

tonylemesmer 11y ago

To me a big issue is the perception of the autonomous driving mode to other road users. How will other drivers and pedestrians know that this car is being driven automatically and treat it accordingly? In the Bosch video[1] (also linked elsewhere on this thread), the system jumps out of autonomous mode at the first junction. The driver has to re-engage it. Drivers who are not closely monitoring the car situation might not realise what's going on and take 5-10 seconds to realise they need to re-engage autonomous mode or to take over fully. Some following-drivers will get agitated by this, in the same way that some do with elderly or learner drivers and make silly impatient manoeuvres. If the state of the autonomous car is clearly communicated to other road users then they might be prepared to make allowances. During this transition phase of mostly human drivers vs. autonomous drivers it will be these situations that frame people's perception of the merits of autonomous vehicles. That and how the systems react to dangerous swerving or lane changing or conflict situations where collisions are impossible to avoid. The "Google system" or the "Tesla system" will be tested millions of times a day and face intense public scrutiny whereas human drivers are treated individually. [1] https://youtu.be/KwD1hjlbhwU https://youtu.be/KwD1hjlbhwU

rl3 11y ago

I wonder how the parallel parking system copes with tailgaters rendering a specific spot untenable.

Shivetya 11y ago

Are they going to take responsibility for accidents like Volvo will? While none of the features revealed are new to the industry he does a great job of marketing it. The ace Tesla has is that over the air updates, something the other manufacturers will need to work out, hopefully with an industry wide standard that can be regulated properly to insure safety, security, and liability.

blisterpeanuts 11y ago

This is fantastic. I'm psyched, not just because of the cool technology, but also because it will finally spur the public to demand more frequent and accurate road striping. Massachusetts has terrible road striping; it seems as though they get around to it about every four or five years, waiting until the lanes and ramp markings are beyond dangerous. This has been irritating me for years. And then they seem to use some kind of cheap paint that wears off quickly. Public works job security, I suppose. But automated lane navigation will require clear markings. Hundreds of thousands of deaths later, we just might finally get a safer road system. Pathetic, but better late than never, I guess.

josefresco 11y ago
I doubt relying on lane markers alone will be enough given the variety of markers, and possible road construction that will be encountered by these cars.