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The Decline of ‘Big Soda’
- tzs 11y agoSubmission from 18 minutes earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10324311 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10324311 Submission from 19 hours earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10321396 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10321396
- gnoway 11y agoAnd the 19 hours one by the same user. coloneltcb really wants you to read this article!
- rch 11y agomods are sending emails asking users to resubmit some articles
- dang 11y agoA small number of reposts is ok if a story hasn't had significant attention yet [1]. After that, we bury reposts as dupes. This is the main device for migitating the randomness that otherwise dominates which stories make it off /newest [2]. Basically, it's ok to roll the dice a few times. If we see a good-by-HN's-standard story that fell through the cracks, we've been emailing the submitters and inviting them to repost it. We invited coloneltcb to repost this one. This is the latest in a series of experiments that I've written about at [3] and [4] if anyone's interested. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html 2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9828818 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9828818 3. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8790134 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8790134 4. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9866140 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9866140
- tzs 11y agoI was aware of that. That's why I didn't flag the duplicates. My purpose in providing back links on each duplicate to the earlier posts was to try to avoid fragmenting the comments. When there are two submissions 18 minutes apart, there is a decent chance comments will be split between them. > If we see a good-by-HN's-standard story that fell through the cracks, we've been emailing the submitters and inviting them to repost it. We invited coloneltcb to repost this one That seems pretty inelegant for a site named "Hacker News". Why can't you diddle the database to give the original another shot? The "invite a resubmission" approach makes the submitter have to figure out a different URL, and increases the risk of comment fragmentation.
- dang 11y agoI don't think we need worry about comment fragmentation on posts that have few points and no comments and are more than a few hours old. The odds of new comments appearing there are minuscule. On live threads, yes, but we often move those [1]. We do give originals another shot, by rolling the clock back on them internally, if they're up to a few hours old. Beyond that, it feels weird to have a story on the front page with just a few points and a timestamp that says e.g. "23 hours ago", let alone "163 days ago". We don't change the user-facing timestamp, because that feels like rewriting history, the sort of thing that HN users wouldn't like. It would also make /newest look weird as neighboring posts could then have different ages. The repost invites don't require users to come up with a different URL. You click on a link and the software fills that in for you. Probably our next step will be to add a setting to user profiles that people can turn on if they want the software to do such reposts for them automatically. In that case, no need for an email, plus the software could pick a good time to do the repost. On the other hand, it's already clear that many users like getting these emails. The positive feedback has been striking. An open question is what to do in cases where the submitter has no email address in their profile, or doesn't check their email. If you or anyone knows of a more elegant solution, please tell us! We would love that. 1. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment&query=by:dang%20comments%20moved https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&date...
- kevin_thibedeau 11y agoI would like to see a decline of "Big water". It astonishes me that bottled water is consistently sold for more than sugar water and not one bottler breaks from the pack and sells it for less. That can only happen with industry wide collusion to fix prices and yet no one in the government does anything about it.
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- chrisseaton 11y agoI think my local supermarket sells bottled water for as little as 19p (29c) for 2 litres, as as much as about £2 ($3) so I think you are mistaken.
- twic 11y agoThat stuff is probably more or less tap water: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/tesco-and-asda-deny-claims-that-own-brand-bottled-water-is-in-fact-tap-water-8059703.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/tesco-and-as... Not that there's anything wrong with that. Actual spring water is uniformly 45p for two litres: http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=258016736 http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=258016736 http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/shop/gb/groceries/sparkling-water/sainsburys-caledonian-scottish-water--sparkling-2l http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/shop/gb/groceries/sparkling-wate... http://groceries.asda.com/product/sparkling-water/asda-eden-falls-sparkling-natural-mineral-water/19028 http://groceries.asda.com/product/sparkling-water/asda-eden-... https://groceries.morrisons.com/webshop/product/Morrisons-Pennine-Vale-Sparkling-Water/111996011 https://groceries.morrisons.com/webshop/product/Morrisons-Pe... That said, i imagine kevin_thibedeau was referring to the situation in the US. Perhaps bottled water is more expensive there. Or perhaps sugar water is cheaper.
- adventured 11y agoBottled water is dirt cheap in the US. I pay $4-$5 for 24 to 32 packs for Deer Park Water, which isn't tap water (but is owned by Nestle). $0.16 per bottle for spring water is incredibly cheap.
- lemevi 11y agoJust take some time next time you're in a supermarket and walk down the cereal aisle, it's just incredible. It's all sugar and carbohydrates in colorful cartoony boxes meant to appeal to children. Just a cup of cereal has many calories and people and children eat huge bowls of this stuff. So I think an anti-cereal campaign might also help. I often wonder what would happen to national obesity rates if cereal aisles in supermarkets just disappeared overnight.
- frenchy 11y agoThere some much healthier options in there if you know where to look, but unfortunately its not easy to identify them, and even things like granola which are colloquially thought to be healthy are often jam packed with sugar.
- jobu 11y agoExactly. They put extra sugar/sweeteners in absolutely everything these days. You have to look at the ingredients and calories on anything you buy. Even super healthy-eeming things like granola or dried fruit usually have sugar added. Yogurt is still promoted as a healthy snack, but most of them have as much added sugar as a candy bar.
- sampo 11y ago> Yogurt is still promoted as a healthy snack, but most of them have as much added sugar as a candy bar. At least plain yogurt is still made only from milk, milk solids and yogurt cultures. ...unless that "nonfat milk solids" means sugar?
- endemic 11y agoI saw something called "Uncle Sam Original Wheat Berry Flakes" last weekend, and it is surprisingly healthy (http://www.unclesamcereal.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Uncle-Sam-13oz-Nutrition-Facts.png http://www.unclesamcereal.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Unc...). Only 4 ingredients, too.
- bluecalm 11y ago
- littletimmy 11y agoWhat we really need is a limit on advertising. Corporations manufacturing packaged sugar like coke, cereal etc. should not be able to manipulate young children to get them addicted to their crap. Sell this stuff in plain white boxes, ban advertising to young children, and in general, limit the free speech of soulless legal fictions when they target children.
- yincrash 11y agowhere do you draw the line? should all food be sold in white boxes with plain lettering?
- the-dude 11y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Name_(brand) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Name_(brand)
- littletimmy 11y agoWe'll have to draw, as in most things, an arbitrary line by consensus. Spinach is on one side, sugar on another, Milk is on spinach's side, tobacco on sugar's, and so on. This is stuff that we should decide as a society to keep ourselves safe from corporate psychopaths.
- yincrash 11y agoI suspect consensus will be very very hard when it comes to food.
- tomjen3 11y agoConsidering that more people are afraid of Aspartame than sugar, I rather not have a "consensus".
- blumkvist 11y agoThere is a popular theory that diary based products are bad for health. Who decides the sides and how does he make the decision?
- klenwell 11y agoWhen Mr. Nutter was fighting the soda tax battle, he kept a bottle of Mountain Dew and a container with 17 teaspoons of sugar — the amount in the bottle — on the table in the center of his office. It was a good “conversation piece,” he said, about the surprising number of calories in a typical soda. I think this is key. Better information and transparency is having an effect. I'm glad to hear we're approaching a point where the RDA for sugar will be listed on products just like fat, sodium, and potassium. I expect this will have a major impact on consumer behavior and industry behavior, much like calorie listings on fast food menus. It still requires government regulations, but instead of challenging First Amendment principles, it embraces them. Most consumers aren't idiots. But they're aren't scientists or academic researchers for the most part either. Bring them relevant, accurate information and they are capable of making rational choices. This article is encouraging evidence.
- caseysoftware 11y agoThat's why we haven't had anyone start smoking in decades.. Soda sales are down but obesity is still up, so the calories are coming from somewhere. If you believe the other common stories, we're drinking the calories. I'd wager they come from the rise of coffee-based beverages - which would not be considered soda - but I don't have data to back that up.
- _delirium 11y agoFor now I think Starbucks et al are benefiting from being culturally identified as more upper/middle-class. Obesity stereotypes seem to have fixated mostly on a "people of Walmart" type image of the fat, slobbish lower classes. So even though a 12-oz Starbucks caramel latte is far worse than a 12-oz Coke, it gets a pass.
- mikenyc 11y agoSugar-wise, the can of coke is about 70% worse. 12-oz caramel macchiato = 23 grams of sugar http://www.starbucks.com/menu/drinks/espresso/caramel-macchiato#size=126197&milk=63 http://www.starbucks.com/menu/drinks/espresso/caramel-macchi... 12-oz can of coke = 39 grams of sugar http://www.coca-colaproductfacts.com/en/coca-cola-products/coca-cola/ http://www.coca-colaproductfacts.com/en/coca-cola-products/c...
- jimmar 11y agoIt's interesting to me that diet soda consumption has dropped from its peak. I would have guessed that sugary soda would have been replaced by diet soda, but it appears that water has replaced sugary soda more frequently. Mind mildly blown.
- tomjen3 11y agoYeah this wasn't exactly what I expected either - I only drink diet soda, but it seems many more people are worried about Aspartame than I assumed.
- rhino369 11y agoA lot of people just can't get over the terrible taste of artificial sugar. If someone ever creates an artificial sugar indistinguishable from sugar or corn syrup, it'll be a multibillion dollar invention. I'd give my right arm for zero calories coke, I'd rather have a perrier than diet coke.
- icelancer 11y agoI agree. Though Coke Zero is significantly better than Diet Coke.
- the_economist 11y agoThe rise of coffee may have played a large part in this.
- digitalengineer 11y agoThe Food that makes billions (bbc) is about the rise of water and more. Very good! http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00w8cll http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00w8cll
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- bluedino 11y agoWhat are restaurants doing to combat the loss of their highest-margin items? Another bonus of drinking water instead of a soft drink is a cheaper bill at lunch.
- jmcphers 11y agoThey're just increasing the prices of everything else. In earlier decades, restaurants used to sell their food at a near-loss because everyone had a couple of high-margin alcoholic drinks with their meal. When that started to go by the wayside, the restaurants had to increase the menu prices of the actual food. I expect we'll see the same thing happen if people stop buying beverages entirely, especially at fast-food restaurants where the soft drink is almost always the highest-margin element of the meal, making up for loss leaders like the "dollar menu".
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- neverartful 11y agoLike many of the posters here, I realize that much of the food and drink sold is unhealthy. On the other hand, I don't think that nanny state regulations are the answer. Plenty of unhealthy things abound (when overused): chips, candy, pizza, fast food, cookies, ice cream, video games, television, etc. Maybe some of the same marketing tactics used to sell the unhealthy things can also be used to counter them with healthier alternatives.
- wpietri 11y agoThat's a pleasant thought, but it seems unlikely. Food advertising gets circa 1000x as much money as healthy eating [1]. I think the simple step here would just be to ban advertising of unhealthy food the same way we've banned advertising of tobacco products. Citizens would still be free to produce and consume junk food, but corporations would no longer be allowed to indulge in industrial-scale manipulation of consumers' habits. That won't happen either, of course, because there's an enormous amount of lobbying money from those industries (and from the advertising/PR/marketing industries). But I can dream. [1] http://consumersunion.org/news/food-industry-advertising-overwhelms-campaign-to-fight-obesity/ http://consumersunion.org/news/food-industry-advertising-ove...
- kw71 11y agoUnder a socialized healthcare regime, every sick person is a problem for the whole society in that we have to pay for it. So, being careless with your health is a crime against the people. If you are in the USA, consider that you have been funding healthcare for some of the worst offenders for decades by paying taxes which fund hospitals. Now with the healthcare reforms in mind, which have itemized your contribution to social healthcare separately from your taxes, take a walk around Walmart and consider all the preventable health issues you see in the crowd. Do you really want to pay for that? I feel like you and I should have the freedom not to, and our collective freedom not to is more important than any individual's freedom to eat and drink his way to costly, lifelong illness.
- hugh4 11y agoWhich is precisely why some of us are opposed to socialised healthcare. Once you have it, every little decision you make becomes everyone else's business.
- hugh4 11y agoIt's amazing how many people seem to think drugs should be legalised but sugar should be banned.
- stouset 11y agoFor starters, I don't think there's any conceivable risk of boxes on supermarket shelves being stuffed to the brim with cocaine. If you want to look at the number of cumulative life-years lost to drugs vs. sugar in the past several decades, my intuition is that it's not even remotely a close contest.
- jpmattia 11y ago> For starters, I don't think there's any conceivable risk of boxes on supermarket shelves being stuffed to the brim with cocaine. Then again, it might be worth remembering the origin of the brand name Coke.
- simoncion 11y agoWhen remembering that, it's also good to remember the regulatory regime present at the time. [0] From a food and drug regulation perspective, that time is very different from this time. That difference makes your pithy quip not so very clever. [0] Compare the date at which cocaine was removed from Coca-Cola [1] to the enactment date of the Pure Food and Drug Act. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola#Coca_.E2.80.93_cocaine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola#Coca_.E2.80.93_cocai... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_Food_and_Drug_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_Food_and_Drug_Act
- rhino369 11y agoYou don't think there is a risk that if drugs were totally legal, food produces wouldn't start adding addictive drugs? These companies are already trying to engineer the most addictive dorrito possible. People love stuff like red bull and coffee because of their stimulant properties. I bet there is a huge market for Frosted (with Coke) Flakes.
- 11y ago
- cheez 11y agoYou realize what happens when "Big Soda" declines, right? "Big Water" is next, and with that, privatization. GIVE THEM FAT KIDS.
- hisham_hm 11y ago"Soda companies" are already moving to controlling water supply in many countries. In Brazil, it's already hard to find in some stores water which is not owned by either Coca-Cola or Nestlé.
- fennecfoxen 11y agoDoes the "water supply" of most citizens of most countries come from a grocery store? Or does it still come from things like municipal plumbing or rural wells?
- seizethecheese 11y agoIn Latin America tap water is not drinkable so most people get their drinking water bottled.
- patrickaljord 11y agoNot in Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador and probably Colombia. People there massively drink boiled tap water.
- seizethecheese 11y agoI just got back from Peru, everybody was drinking bottled water and boiling water for cooking. I'm sure this is a matter of preference.
- patrickaljord 11y agoYou were probably with middle class people (lived there for 5 years, wife's from there).
- Dylan16807 11y agoWhy not filter?
- Eric_WVGG 11y agopro-tip for anyone trying to kick a soda (or alcohol) habit: get yourself a seltzer maker, and an assortment of bitters (Fee Bros Cranberry, Walnut, and standard Angostura are a good place to start). This is just my personal experience, but I found that most of the unhealthy drinking I was doing was out of habit and boredom. I’m just as happy with a seltzer + a few dashes of bitters as I was with a beer or a coke.
- minikites 11y agoFee Brothers is great and that is also my "soft" drink of choice.
- bradlys 11y agoEven if you don't get something like that, just having a glass of water nearby is a great way to reduce consumption. I drink a lot of diet soda and it's mainly out of compulsion to constantly drink liquids. If I keep a nice cold cup of water near where I am, the soda consumption drops super fast. Once I start drinking water during that day, that's usually what sticks. For me, it's almost all about the habit of constantly drinking. That said, even though I know how to kick the habit, I still tend to drink a lot of diet soda because it's a nice pick-me-up.
- baby 11y agoI completely replaced these things with the flavored sparkling water
- makecheck 11y agoSoda isn't inherently evil. Education on how to track calories and understand the density of some foods is more important. Of course, since sodas don't have really any nutrition, it is hard to drink a lot of them. You can't single out soda while you still have people eating "healthy" salads that are twice as big as they should be, covered with dressing and cheese and olives and fatty meats. You can't single out soda while you let people drink "coffee" (which by itself is fine) that includes 1000 calories worth of additives like cream and sweeteners. And oil is extremely calorie-dense; simply cutting in half the number of fries that you eat would go a long way. With a proper diet and exercise you can certainly have a couple of sodas a week. There is also a better way to drink soda: don't use a straw. Just try to get through a 32 oz. soda when you sip it a bit at a time; you'll find that you don't really drink it that fast, that it tastes better, and that a small amount is still satisfying. After awhile it'll seem much more natural to order a small soda.
- tripzilch 11y ago> It’s clear that soda’s calories contribute to weight gain and obesity, but whether its impact is greater than that of other unhealthy foods has not been conclusively demonstrated. Nevertheless, the change is already underway. I think that if you consume a lot of sugary stuff, like drinking soda all day, you're going to get used to the taste of sugar. If you cut soda, consume a lot less sugar, you may find you have less desire for other really sweet products like ice cream, cake, candies, etc., because they are just so sweet and at the very least won't feel like eating a whole bunch of it any more.