8 ms·

Europe's Waiting Room

35 points by Thevet 11y ago

krampian 11y ago
On that note, Europe has more than one waiting room these days. Malta and parts of Italy seem to be fulfilling a similar role for illegal migrants coming north from Africa, for example.
- venomsnake 11y ago
  Don't forget whole of Libya :(
lordnacho 11y ago
This whole refugee crisis is hard for me to accept. My whole family ended up in the West in an earlier crisis, and they tell us about how they rented crappy boats, almost died, almost got pirated, etc, trying to get across the water. They also talk about the generosity they met once they got to their respective countries. There's stories about various strangers who volunteered to put up entire families in their own houses, helped them with the language, getting a job, studying, childcare, and so on. A few weeks ago I was driving through Calais, and there were so many migrants on the road they spilled onto the opposite lane. There's stories about people getting killed clinging on to the bottoms of trucks, people dying of asphyxiation in containers, people getting run over by the train. People dying in overfilled boats. -How did attitudes change so much that we can no longer accept that someone would like to change an accident of birth? -Why do we hide behind refugee status (and there are real refugess from war these days, esp in Turkey) when we know that people did not choose to be born in an economic hellhole? -Are we really happy to let capital move freely but keep the labor stuck where it is cheapest? EDIT: So, before I got attacked for not feeding, housing, and educating thousands of migrants on my own, I was going to add this: - Why is there such reluctance to spread the burden? The numbers arriving in Italy and Greece are orders of magnitude higher that those living in the shanty in Calais, hoping to come to the UK. It was 140K crossing the Med according to the BBC in 2014. There's 350M people in Europe, and several of the rich states are actually shrinking.
- venomsnake 11y ago
  > A few weeks ago I was driving through Calais, and there were so many migrants on the road they spilled onto the opposite lane. Did you stop to help any of them? If the answer is no - that answers all of your question. On a longer note - observant Muslims just rub the Europeans the wrong way. Because they pit against each other 2 strongly held beliefs - religious freedom and women are totally equal - politically, sexually and everything else to men. Until Islam reforms in Europe - it will only become worse. We tamed the Christian Church - but right now it seems that secularism is under attack. You will see how better will be received (lets hope it does not get to it) refugees from Ukraine or Armenia or Georgia. Let the downvotes begin ...
  - kshatrea 11y ago
    I upvoted you. I live in Sweden and used to live in Denmark. In both places the rise of right wing parties (Danske Folkeparti and Sverige Demokraterna) is precisely due to the conflicts between these two groups. It isn't Islam that is the problem though. There are several Muslims, especially in Sweden that have integrated quite well. I can't put my finger on what it is that is a problem though. Indians by all means(I am one) don't integrate that well either (in clothes or social and religious habits) but they don't seem to receive that much vitriol. I feel the inequality of women is one reason for the negative reputation of Muslim residents(I can't find precise stats online right now but the percentage of non-working Muslim women is much higher than in other religious groups) and the amount of children they have per family is more leading to more welfare[0]. [0] I don't have stats right now so I can't prove this but I can anecdotally prove it based on conversations with many Swedes and Danes.
    - tomjen3 11y ago
      As a Dane I don't know much about Indians, but the Chinese haven't integrated much, but they work hard and aren't trouble so why should we hate them? Roma (or gysis) on the other hand - tons of criminals, so very unpopular. Muslims are a mixed bag. Lots of them own small businesses, if you buy a pizza chances are you will be served by a muslim. On the other hand if you get raped by a stranger it is also most likely a muslim, despite the fact that they are not a large part of the population. Add to that Denmark has really short sentences _and_ we generally don't deport people even if they are gang leaders and you can see why there are lots of people who don't like muslims. Anyway much of this could be avoided if we were tougher on crime, or much more discriminating in who we let in.
Gravityloss 11y ago
Take some countries where refugees are coming from. Just Nigeria itself has a population of 177 million. Disregarding individual near term humanitary issues for a moment and looking at the big long term picture, it's not likely that a large portion of Nigerian people's lives can be improved by moving to Europe. The most efficient way is probably to help it locally. This is what organizations like the Gates foundation and also many development aid projects (not all) are aiming towards. Some for example boost entrepreneurship, where a larger portion of the value addition chain could be done locally before export (instead of just exporting raw materials etc).
- atmosx 11y ago
  It takes 1 Libya bombing to create a damage so big would take 1000x Gates foundations to heal. The bigger problem is that average Joe doesn't give a sht. As long as the refugee/immigrant is not there, to get his job* he doesn't care. When he finally arrives and takes his job, instead of getting mad to the people who is exploiting the situation, he gets mad to the immigrant who can barely speak the language.
  - evilhaskeller 11y ago
    > The bigger problem is that average Joe doesn't give a sht. As long as the refugee/immigrant is not there, to get his job* he doesn't care. When he finally arrives and takes his job, instead of getting mad to the people who is exploiting the situation, he gets mad to the immigrant who can barely speak the language. I think you dramatically underestimate the place cultural differences are taking in the growing frustration of the people of Europe. Three things: * - Because racial statistics are forbidden in Europe, whenever someone complains that element from a certain group are causing problems their opinion is immediately dismissed as being racist. If you spend even a week in Paris, chances it will be hard for you to stay neutral and support that Muslims/Gipsies aren't committing more crimes than any other groups combined. The problem is, people aren't oblivious to what happen around them. When some of your relatives/friends gets assaulted in the subway once by someone from north-african ancestry, it is a coincidence. Twice, it was bad luck. Third, something is going on. * - More people complain that they do not want such a steady, and large immigraiton flow. Politicians, because they are either powerless or stubborn ignore the people -> Far right politicians, who have put secure borders and immigration quota at the DNA of their programs are on the rise. Rinse, and repeat.
atmosx 11y ago
In order to stop having refugees, one must stop having wars, like the one we have in Syria. The NATO supported the 'rebels' while the Russians supported the 'authoritarian regime'. Of course depending on where you get your news from rebels could be named 'terrorists' or 'freedom fighters' and what not. In between a few million people die, lose everything and so forth. Entire generations vanished. The NATO countries and Russia should take care of these refugees. They should pay for shelter and social re-abilitation. Even host at least half of them... Of course the best solution would be to stop war, but people are weak and stupid. In Greece many people help these refugees, actively. Others hate them because especially in Athens the number of 'aliens' is overwhelming. Hence, Golden Dawn got 6% in 2012 by running an anti-immigrant campaign. Generally speaking throughout Europe, anti-immigration sentiment is growing stronger. Switzerland is about to close borders to everyone else, the UK, Slovakia, Poland and the Czech Republic want stricter immigration control. France is openly against Muslims (due to the recent events, Charlie Hedbo, etc.). It's like living in 1932 all over again.
- evilhaskeller 11y ago
  > France is openly against Muslims (due to the recent events, Charlie Hedbo, etc.). What? There is certainly a growing anti-islamism (political movement who supports using the Qran (Muslim's sacred book) as a social and political framework), and lots of frustrations the infamous binationals from Algeria (holders of french and Algerian citizenships) that decided to massacre people for drawings. There has been also some shock to see lots of support for Charlie Hebdo's terrorists among muslim communities online. During the aftermath of the event, a hashtag on twitter was among the top of the country (#Che - in Arabic "Che" means "you deserved it"). I would not call France "anti-Muslim", especially when 10% of the population is of Arabic descent, and Muslim. Seriously, the US has barely 1% of its population that is muslim. France has no lessons to receive to anyone concerning how it handles its muslim majority. The cultural pressure is unparalleled. Disclosure: French expat of Algerian descent - immigrated to France in the 90s.
  - atmosx 11y ago
    How would you call that? [1] [1] http://www.rt.com/news/224395-muslim-incidents-rise-france/ http://www.rt.com/news/224395-muslim-incidents-rise-france/

35 points by Thevet 11y ago

On that note, Europe has more than one waiting room these days. Malta and parts of Italy seem to be fulfilling a similar role for illegal migrants coming north from Africa, for example.

venomsnake 11y ago
Don't forget whole of Libya :(

lordnacho 11y ago

This whole refugee crisis is hard for me to accept. My whole family ended up in the West in an earlier crisis, and they tell us about how they rented crappy boats, almost died, almost got pirated, etc, trying to get across the water. They also talk about the generosity they met once they got to their respective countries. There's stories about various strangers who volunteered to put up entire families in their own houses, helped them with the language, getting a job, studying, childcare, and so on. A few weeks ago I was driving through Calais, and there were so many migrants on the road they spilled onto the opposite lane. There's stories about people getting killed clinging on to the bottoms of trucks, people dying of asphyxiation in containers, people getting run over by the train. People dying in overfilled boats. -How did attitudes change so much that we can no longer accept that someone would like to change an accident of birth? -Why do we hide behind refugee status (and there are real refugess from war these days, esp in Turkey) when we know that people did not choose to be born in an economic hellhole? -Are we really happy to let capital move freely but keep the labor stuck where it is cheapest? EDIT: So, before I got attacked for not feeding, housing, and educating thousands of migrants on my own, I was going to add this: - Why is there such reluctance to spread the burden? The numbers arriving in Italy and Greece are orders of magnitude higher that those living in the shanty in Calais, hoping to come to the UK. It was 140K crossing the Med according to the BBC in 2014. There's 350M people in Europe, and several of the rich states are actually shrinking.

venomsnake 11y ago
> A few weeks ago I was driving through Calais, and there were so many migrants on the road they spilled onto the opposite lane. Did you stop to help any of them? If the answer is no - that answers all of your question. On a longer note - observant Muslims just rub the Europeans the wrong way. Because they pit against each other 2 strongly held beliefs - religious freedom and women are totally equal - politically, sexually and everything else to men. Until Islam reforms in Europe - it will only become worse. We tamed the Christian Church - but right now it seems that secularism is under attack. You will see how better will be received (lets hope it does not get to it) refugees from Ukraine or Armenia or Georgia. Let the downvotes begin ...
- kshatrea 11y ago
  I upvoted you. I live in Sweden and used to live in Denmark. In both places the rise of right wing parties (Danske Folkeparti and Sverige Demokraterna) is precisely due to the conflicts between these two groups. It isn't Islam that is the problem though. There are several Muslims, especially in Sweden that have integrated quite well. I can't put my finger on what it is that is a problem though. Indians by all means(I am one) don't integrate that well either (in clothes or social and religious habits) but they don't seem to receive that much vitriol. I feel the inequality of women is one reason for the negative reputation of Muslim residents(I can't find precise stats online right now but the percentage of non-working Muslim women is much higher than in other religious groups) and the amount of children they have per family is more leading to more welfare[0]. [0] I don't have stats right now so I can't prove this but I can anecdotally prove it based on conversations with many Swedes and Danes.
  - tomjen3 11y ago
    As a Dane I don't know much about Indians, but the Chinese haven't integrated much, but they work hard and aren't trouble so why should we hate them? Roma (or gysis) on the other hand - tons of criminals, so very unpopular. Muslims are a mixed bag. Lots of them own small businesses, if you buy a pizza chances are you will be served by a muslim. On the other hand if you get raped by a stranger it is also most likely a muslim, despite the fact that they are not a large part of the population. Add to that Denmark has really short sentences _and_ we generally don't deport people even if they are gang leaders and you can see why there are lots of people who don't like muslims. Anyway much of this could be avoided if we were tougher on crime, or much more discriminating in who we let in.

Gravityloss 11y ago

Take some countries where refugees are coming from. Just Nigeria itself has a population of 177 million. Disregarding individual near term humanitary issues for a moment and looking at the big long term picture, it's not likely that a large portion of Nigerian people's lives can be improved by moving to Europe. The most efficient way is probably to help it locally. This is what organizations like the Gates foundation and also many development aid projects (not all) are aiming towards. Some for example boost entrepreneurship, where a larger portion of the value addition chain could be done locally before export (instead of just exporting raw materials etc).

atmosx 11y ago
It takes 1 Libya bombing to create a damage so big would take 1000x Gates foundations to heal. The bigger problem is that average Joe doesn't give a sht. As long as the refugee/immigrant is not there, to get his job* he doesn't care. When he finally arrives and takes his job, instead of getting mad to the people who is exploiting the situation, he gets mad to the immigrant who can barely speak the language.
- evilhaskeller 11y ago
  > The bigger problem is that average Joe doesn't give a sht. As long as the refugee/immigrant is not there, to get his job* he doesn't care. When he finally arrives and takes his job, instead of getting mad to the people who is exploiting the situation, he gets mad to the immigrant who can barely speak the language. I think you dramatically underestimate the place cultural differences are taking in the growing frustration of the people of Europe. Three things: * - Because racial statistics are forbidden in Europe, whenever someone complains that element from a certain group are causing problems their opinion is immediately dismissed as being racist. If you spend even a week in Paris, chances it will be hard for you to stay neutral and support that Muslims/Gipsies aren't committing more crimes than any other groups combined. The problem is, people aren't oblivious to what happen around them. When some of your relatives/friends gets assaulted in the subway once by someone from north-african ancestry, it is a coincidence. Twice, it was bad luck. Third, something is going on. * - More people complain that they do not want such a steady, and large immigraiton flow. Politicians, because they are either powerless or stubborn ignore the people -> Far right politicians, who have put secure borders and immigration quota at the DNA of their programs are on the rise. Rinse, and repeat.

atmosx 11y ago

In order to stop having refugees, one must stop having wars, like the one we have in Syria. The NATO supported the 'rebels' while the Russians supported the 'authoritarian regime'. Of course depending on where you get your news from rebels could be named 'terrorists' or 'freedom fighters' and what not. In between a few million people die, lose everything and so forth. Entire generations vanished. The NATO countries and Russia should take care of these refugees. They should pay for shelter and social re-abilitation. Even host at least half of them... Of course the best solution would be to stop war, but people are weak and stupid. In Greece many people help these refugees, actively. Others hate them because especially in Athens the number of 'aliens' is overwhelming. Hence, Golden Dawn got 6% in 2012 by running an anti-immigrant campaign. Generally speaking throughout Europe, anti-immigration sentiment is growing stronger. Switzerland is about to close borders to everyone else, the UK, Slovakia, Poland and the Czech Republic want stricter immigration control. France is openly against Muslims (due to the recent events, Charlie Hedbo, etc.). It's like living in 1932 all over again.

evilhaskeller 11y ago
> France is openly against Muslims (due to the recent events, Charlie Hedbo, etc.). What? There is certainly a growing anti-islamism (political movement who supports using the Qran (Muslim's sacred book) as a social and political framework), and lots of frustrations the infamous binationals from Algeria (holders of french and Algerian citizenships) that decided to massacre people for drawings. There has been also some shock to see lots of support for Charlie Hebdo's terrorists among muslim communities online. During the aftermath of the event, a hashtag on twitter was among the top of the country (#Che - in Arabic "Che" means "you deserved it"). I would not call France "anti-Muslim", especially when 10% of the population is of Arabic descent, and Muslim. Seriously, the US has barely 1% of its population that is muslim. France has no lessons to receive to anyone concerning how it handles its muslim majority. The cultural pressure is unparalleled. Disclosure: French expat of Algerian descent - immigrated to France in the 90s.
- atmosx 11y ago
  How would you call that? [1] [1] http://www.rt.com/news/224395-muslim-incidents-rise-france/ http://www.rt.com/news/224395-muslim-incidents-rise-france/