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Buffer's transparency dashboard: Public salaries, equity and more
- jamra 11y agoNice of you to publish this. It takes a lot of courage to break the mold. I would like to hear how publishing this info has affected you later down the road.
- sharkweek 11y agoAs someone who has followed Buffer's business for a while, this has been public for quite some time. I'm under the impression from reading a lot of the founders' writings that it has certainly had small challenges but overall has been a huge net positive.
- nraynaud 11y agoyeah, I read that kickstarted projects have a huge problem when dealing with providers, everybody wants the biggest share of the loot, they know that the backers reacted well the last time they were late, etc.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- fs111 11y agoI like openness as much as the next guy, but it is really nobodies business to know, how much I earn, except for my employer, the tax office and myself.
- lukasm 11y agoKeep in mind this is only in European and US culture. In Japan is normal to talk about it.
- brobinson 11y agoIn Norway, you can find out how much anyone makes by looking up their public tax returns! http://www.joshuakennon.com/tax-returns-in-norway-are-public/ http://www.joshuakennon.com/tax-returns-in-norway-are-public...
- dottedmag 11y agoNot really. 1) Public information is income/assets after deductions, and deductions vary greatly. 2) Only selected newspapers get the whole dataset, everyone else can search in DB, but the searches are logged by Tax Administration (presumably to help police in case someone gets robbed).
- brobinson 11y ago>the searches are logged by Tax Administration (presumably to help police in case someone gets robbed). This was my first thought! A list of high value targets.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- jotux 11y agoHave you ever considered why you feel that how much you earn should be a secret?
- dominotw 11y agoWhy not?
- jotux 11y agoWhy or why not. I'm asking if he has seriously thought about it. Your question to me makes no sense.
- innguest 11y agoWhy should I reveal something about myself without a quid pro quo? If I'm going to give information away I want some information in exchange. How about next to all price tags for products in any store, put the cost of the product next to the price? Would you be for that? How would you think everybody would react when they realized all shirts cost 39 cents, all pants cost 45 cents, all shoes cost 76 cents, even though all along we've all been paying $30, $50, $100? It's an honest question, I also don't know the answer, but my point is the way people interpret information (as mobs) is outside of any one individual's control, and maybe people don't want to give that control up?
- timdorr 11y agoHonest question: Why?
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- fs111 11y agoI consider that private information. Why do my friends/neighbours whatnot have to know, that I make more money than they do? It creates all sorts of awkward situations, at least in the culture, that I live in.
- adrianpike 11y agoHow do you know they're not the ones making more money than you?
- fs111 11y agobecause I am a very well paid software engineer and they are not..
- s73v3r 11y agoWhy do people who say this always assume they're the ones making the most, and aren't the lowballed ones?
- FragenAntworten 11y agoMost software engineers make considerably more than the median salary, so it's not unreasonable to suppose that you make more than your neighbors (unless you can barely afford your home).
- toephu2 11y agowhat makes you think there isn't a neighbor making more than you?
- dbingham 11y ago
- zzalpha 11y agoI like openness as much as the next guy, but it is really nobodies business to know, how much I earn, except for my employer, the tax office and myself. Don't forget your co-workers. Capitalism only works with information transparency. The minute there's an information asymmetry, things break down. In this case, without information about the salary of your co-workers, you cannot effectively negotiate for your own value, which puts you and all of your colleagues at a disadvantage to the employer. Of course, that's really the American way these days, but that doesn't make it a good thing.
- brobinson 11y agoCan any engineers who work at Buffer chime in as to why you work there? It's been noted before on HN that the salaries are on the low end for the SF area. Obviously salary is not everything, so I'm curious as to specifically what made you join and what keeps you there.
- cdubzzz 11y agoI think this level of openness and such a specific salary formula speaks volumes about the work culture and that should partially answer your question. If my employer made this level of information available to everyone, I would have a great deal more trust and confidence in the senior management and probably wouldn't be job hunting on the side.
- k-mcgrady 11y ago>> "If my employer made this level of information available to everyone" ...I would stay well away. I guess it's different for everyone but I don't want this kind of information available to my colleagues never mind the general public.
- RussianCow 11y agoMay I ask why? What's wrong with people knowing how much you make?
- k-mcgrady 11y agoIt can lead to uncomfortable social situations. Although I would like to believe people don't get jealous of how much others make or change their opinion based on that they do, even if they don't mean too.
- toomuchtodo 11y agoThis is entirely based on the people you work with. I'm sure some of my co-workers make more than me, but I would never think for a moment they don't deserve it or haven't earned it. The future is radical transparency; we should be prepared to embrace it.
- Cherian 11y agoEvery time Buffer did something like this, I was skeptical. I thought this was just a marketing angle and they’ll have to abandon this at some point when they scale. But I was wrong. Shame on me. Props to the Buffer team. You’ve set new standards. An engineering candidate referred to Buffer’s salary during the interview and I realized how much they mean to all of us now.
- cookiecaper 11y agoThey're still small. While they could probably keep their formulae public, I seriously doubt that the personal data exposure will be able to continue if/when Buffer matures into a company with more than a handful of employees. There are many good reasons to have some opacity around personal income, and at scale, people will expect that from their employer. It's one thing to find a couple dozen people in SF who don't mind, but it's another thing to hire hundreds or thousands of employees this way.
- matthewowen 11y agoKinda frustrating though, because Buffer's salaries are very low (esp in SF and NYC). So to whatever extent they're anchoring standards or w/e, they're anchoring them to a very low level.
- chollida1 11y agoPretty cool of these guys to do this. There now appears to be 3 ways of allocating salary 1) The typical negotiate and keep secrete way most companies work 2) The finance model where everything is public and you get bonus-ed out based on your performance with some discretion. 3) The buffer way where everything is public and you get paid based on a pre existing formula Case 1 is how most firms work and it kind of sucks for people who don't job hop and don't negotiate well. Case 2 works well when you: - make a profit - can directly relate profit back to an individual or group Case 3 Not sure if this works well or not, at the very least everyone knows where they stand and that counts for something. Is there a better way to do this?
- MicroBerto 11y agoAt some point, all of these transparency posts/pages start to reek too highly a self aggrandizing marketing ploy. A successful one, no doubt (especially since the readership is also a main target demographic)... but it's getting a bit tired. Good luck to Buffer, try not to throw your shoulders out while patting yourselves on the back.
- jedberg 11y agoaka A recruiter's dream. Now you know exactly how much you need to offer each employee to poach them! I'm a big fan of internal transparency of these things, but external not so much. However, I did make it a point at reddit to show our AWS bill to anyone who asked, but that was actually selfish in nature. I was hoping that if enough people knew it would drive the price down.
- impostervt 11y agoDid it drive the price down?
- jedberg 11y agoHard to say. They were driving the price down anyway and they don't give special pricing to anyone (they just do usage tiers that get cheaper)
- ryanSrich 11y agoEh. Not really. If you're a company and you've hit an employee's baseline salary for what they need to make (YMMV) there are other things you need to do differently in order to attract and retain great people. For me there are just some jobs out there that I would never do. Unless you're paying me seven figures there's no way I'd ever work for Facebook, or Google, or pretty much any Silicon Valley company. Those places would have to drastically change how they operate in order for me to consider working there. A place like Buffer seems nice and I'm sure it's a great place for people to work but the product is just boring to me. They're not working on anything that I personally feel strongly about. In short: It's way more than salary.
- ryandrake 11y agoIf this were truly a recruiter's dream, we'd see this company's employees getting "poached" left and right. Is this happening? I HATE the term "poach" in this context. It implies that an employee is merely the property of a company, like a deer or fish, being "taken" by another company, rather than employees freely choosing among mutually beneficial business relationships with employers.
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- demarq 11y agoThis is brilliant, and I love that they aren't holding back. I think if society govts/corps/ngo's operated like this the world would be a much better place. Or perhaps I've just gone hippie. Buffer keep it up!
- kasey_junk 11y agoGovernments usually do operate this way. As does the military, many ngos and oddly enough lots of trading/finance firms.
- vosper 11y agoHere's a direct link to the Google doc with all the info: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AgrWVeoG5divdE81a2wzcHYxV1pacWE1UjM3V0w0MUE&toomany=true https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AgrWVeoG5divdE81... Edit: I find this hugely inspiring. I love that they're sticking to their transparency promise.
- iolothebard 11y agoHope their equity pays off because those salaries are shit for SF. For that matter, they're shit for Dallas.
- baby 11y agothings are most of their devs are not living in the US.
- ndm00 11y agoThe company I work for does something similar. Everyone at the same level gets the same salary, with percentage variations based on geography. It completely removes the competitive and secretive nature I've seen elsewhere. And it also pushes each individual to live up to their title due to the extra transparency.
- heywire 11y agoI work for a large (30K employees) company that does something similar. For each job title, there is a salary and bonus range. So from someone's title in Outlook, you can pretty much guess their salary within 10% or so. This information is all readily available to all employees, though I don't think it is shared externally.
- madcaptenor 11y agoI work for a large company that does this - except it's pretty much useless for guessing someone's salary, because the salary range for each job title are something like $X to $2.25X.
- nilkn 11y agoThe only thing I dislike about this is that the salaries are literally public -- not just known to each other in the company, but your friends and family could also look up your salary. I'm not sure I understand the purpose of this. Is it really necessary to have names in the public listing?
- jlukasavige 11y agoI'm just starting with Buffer as a Product Creator. I gave this a bit of thought at first and it did indeed make me nervous. Now, however, it's completely freeing to have it out there and have one less thing bottled up that I can't talk about. Finances are a funny thing in the US; money is completely taboo to talk about, but why? Does it really matter that your friends/family know how much you make? Maybe it does and that might keep you from working with a company like Buffer, which is just fine. In that case it might not be a culture fit and you should probably pursue working with a company with a little less transparency. The openness and transparency is what most drew me to work at Buffer. They don't compartmentalize and that's a great thing. Transparency extends to all corners of the company. Some places say they stand for something but then you find out there are boundaries. Not the case here. :-) Justin, new Product Creator with Buffer
- Dwolb 11y agoI'm undecided on if public transparency of salaries is a net positive or net negative for society and for Buffer. However, I do applaud you as an employee and the organization itself for trying something different. You can tell by the polarization of responses here on HN that you guys are truly on to something (not sure what though!).
- swozey 11y agoI don't want anyone but my closest of friends to have any idea as to what I make for a living. How do I benefit from that? Now when we go out to dinner, or to buy drinks, is this acquaintance that I see a few times a month going to pressure or guilt me into paying for things? Are they going to be upset that I spent $20 on a birthday present when I make 2-5x their pay? It shouldn't even be a consideration unless I want it to be. Are they going to talk behind my back about how I only tip $1 on drinks but make XYZ amount of money? When people know you're making money they come out of the woodwork and do things they wouldn't do if they had no idea. I'd rather it not even be a consideration in our relationship as friends/family/whatever.
- antoniuschan99 11y agoThe discrepancy in equity is huge
- icelancer 11y agoLike it is in every other company?
- andyidsinga 11y agoquestion I have is how can one use all of this to evaluate company performance in terms of productivity and morale? I'm curious about: 1) employee turnover 2) offers made to candidates vs declines 3) promotions and job changes
- JoshMilo 11y agoAfter spending eight years in the military (where everyone's salary is public, even Generals) I was kind of shocked when I got out and everyone was so secretive about how much money they made. When I got my first office job a few friends had to coach me to not talk about salary. To me it seems the only one really benefiting from not talking about money is the company paying you.
- kenko 11y agoYep! Some companies try to prohibit their employees from discussing compensation, precisely because they see the benefit of keeping people in the dark about each others' salaries, benefits, etc. This practice is actually illegal, but it's also mostly unnecessary, because so many people have internalized the idea that such things are Not To Be Spoken Of anyway.
- ryanmarsh 11y agoWhat about the reverse where I can negotiate an outsized salary to feed my family with so long as our dealings are private.
- RodericDay 11y agoWhat about the reverse-reverse, when another engineer, as talented as you, but less charismatic or more ignorant about labor economics unrelated to his day-to-day job, isn't able to? Is it really the for the best if you and your boss split the money he left on the table?
- ryanmarsh 11y agoBetter for my children or his?
- kenko 11y agoWhy would you only be able to do this if your dealings are private?
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- therealmarv 11y agoThey thing they make a good thing to make it open. They are wrong. It may be ok to share their calculations, it may be ok if the CEO tells how much he makes. It is not ok to share full names of employees. And if they do they should make it internally. This absolutely helps nobody outside the company. Really Buffer, you're making me angry. Privacy is something I decide and not my company in this case.
- netfire 11y agoI find the location modifier interesting. Obviously, the living costs in major cities are being factored in here, but if two employees provide the same amount of value to the company, it seems odd to pay someone more just because they choose to live in a big city. It seems like that might also cause some resentment between the two employees. Does the company get some additional value from having their employees live in a big city? Is there some other factor I'm missing?
- timvp 11y agoI think it is a very great movement of companies being transparent. I've learned a lot of the companies that share their ups and downs and how they distribute their salaries, equity and how much and on what conditions they raise funding.
- drewpc 11y agoI love it. The explanations for equity, salary, etc are great. If the individuals within the company are on board with having this information public, then it's proof that they hold the same values as the company with regard to transparency--almost like a test, right up front. All of the comments below about people wanting to keep that information private is perfectly fine, but that means you don't share the same values as the company. I agree with the previous comments about government/military salaries being pre-defined. It completely removes the negativity usually associated with secret salaries. That's now a non-issue. Well done.
- asift 11y agoI'm curious what, if any, effect this has on the type of people who are attracted to a company. I'm personally not a fan of arbitrary pay metrics. I want my compensation to be tied to my performance. I don't want to be pigeon holed based on some formula. I suppose having equity helps with this, as it presents some more upside for everyone to accomplish exceptional things, but I would personally stay away from a company like this. It's not so much driven by the transparency aspect, but I want to be compensated based on my performance.
- FragenAntworten 11y ago> I want to be compensated based on my performance. I imagine they'd increase your experience and seniority multipliers based on your performance, so you could advance (up to "lead master developer").
- drewpc 11y agoI certainly can't speak for Buffer, but most companies use bonuses to account for this (for salaried employees). Having a tiered salary structure lets both the company and the employee plan for a base salary from year to year and provides opportunities to "move people up" as the progress through a career. Beware what you ask for: if you produce less value for the company in a given pay period, they should be able to pay you less! I think tying a base salary to performance creates a really unstable financial situation for the company and the employee.
- pyb 11y agoI am surprised that this equity distribution isn't raising more eyebrows. Is this considered normal by anyone ?
- kwang88 11y agoI might be ignorant, but if they hit profitability relatively early in their hiring (and meaningfully de-risked themselves as a result), I could see them having the leverage to parcel out lower equity amounts. Were you expecting a shallower decline in equity grants over time? Definitely curious to hear what others view as an expected employee equity structure.
- pyb 11y agoWell yes. Joel has been at Buffer for 6 years and Andy for 4 years. Joel has 42 times more equity than Andy. How's that make sense ? Anyway, I want to stop picking on this particular startup because, from looking at Angellist ballpark offers and various HN comments, this is seen as the normal. I find this reassuring in a way. That Silicon Valley is cocking up on this vital issue so vastly and consistently shows that it's still being run by fallible humans...
- pyb 11y agoAlso, kudos to Buffer for opening themselves up to criticism from randos such as myself
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- ryanmarsh 11y agoThis is so fucked up for employees. I'm a little surprised at how mad this is making me given I don't work there. Want to negotiate a big raise? Sorry everyone will see and might not agree you deserve it. Want a big salary bump at your next job? Sorry, the recruiter now holds all the cards in salary discussions. Want to get robbed? Yes! We can facilitate this by publishing you are a top paid individual at company XYZ.
- nilkn 11y agoI upvoted this because I think your concerns are actually legitimate. I hope others will engage with your post rather than being turned off by the slightly inflammatory tone.
- ryanmarsh 11y agoI'm honestly curious what was inflammatory about my tone?
- drewpc 11y agoApparently, you don't negotiate a big raise at Buffer. You prove that you've increased your experience level. The only thing I would add to the equation would be a multiple for "years employed at Buffer". Then they would be automatically handling raises for people as the stayed longer.
- ryanmarsh 11y agoYou could think you're in a meritocracy, that no one is getting an outsized deal over anyone else. The reality is that reviews and promotions will be subjective, gamed, or both. This is human nature. It might work with fewer than 100 employees. The military is proof it doesn't work in large organizations. The point and promotion system was endlessly gamed.
- gfody 11y agoOTOH the other visible salaries make nice "comps" for appraising yourself to justify your raise. If you think about it, the usual reason you would want to negotiate a big raise is because you are significantly underpaid in the first place, and that shouldn't happen under this scheme as long as you're as transparent as the company is with your expectations and only accept what you believe is fair. Furthermore, if someone disagrees with you getting a big bump then maybe they have a point. You might have something to say if somebody two levels below you started posturing for a leadership role and more pay? This way you can't just ignore it and say it's none of your business - that's the kind of behavior this level of transparency discourages. Everyone's an owner. You really should be honest with recruiters about your previous salary. Lying about that is more likely to hurt your chances or get you fired down the road - http://bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/18/is-it-illegal-to-lie-about-your-pay-in-a-job-interview http://bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/18/is-it-illegal-to-l... You have a good point about it being risky. If any of these people end up making a great deal of money I hope they do more to obfuscate their identities in the public versions. From the looks of it right now they are all massively under market for their roles.. it's clear they're doing a startup and are taking startup sacrifices. I wouldn't worry about any of them being targeted as a filthy rich mark.
- djb_hackernews 11y agoAll of the Engineers took the salary over the equity. Anyone else find that interesting?
- tomredman 11y agoNot me :) I opted for the equity option. -Tom, Mobile Engineer @ Buffer