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Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

173 points by sehugg 11y ago

kctess5 11y ago
Interesting. It seems like in a historical context such as this, accuracy is more important than some random current events association thing. Weird move, Apple... Removing "unnecessary" references (ones without any historical context or other legit justification) might be more reasonable.
deleted 11y ago
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mariodiana 11y ago
Political correctness has gone mainstream, turning American culture into a Neo-Puritan age where everyone is elbowing past others to demonstrate how righteous and socially conscious he or she is.
yequalsx 11y ago
Here is part of Mississippi's Declaration of Secession: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. " It astounds me that there are large numbers of whites in this country who think the Civil War was about anything other than slavery. The Confederate flag represents and evil institution and represents the evil intent of white Southern power brokers 155 years ago. I don't have an opinion as such on Apple's decision but let's not pretend that the Confederate flag is anything other than a symbol of overt racism.
- jrs235 11y ago
  I see the Confederate flag primarily evoking three topics: states rights, slavery, and racism. All three were at stake with the Civil war. However, Mississippi's Declaration of Secession shows how racism, not just the "institution of slavery", was at the forefront of their desire to leave the Union. From their declaration, Mississippi probably wouldn't have been as/too upset about losing Irish slaves.
- pdabbadabba 11y ago
  Yep. More people need to know these things. Here is another one: "Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth." Confederate Vice President Alexander H. Stephens Savannah, Georgia March 21, 1861 http://web.archive.org/web/20130822142313/http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/cornerstone-speech/ http://web.archive.org/web/20130822142313/http://teachingame...
  - melling 11y ago
    Jefferson owned slaves. While we're cleaning up our history, maybe it's time to tear down the Jefferson Memorial? http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/culture/la-et-cm-thomas-jefferson-confederate-statues-20150624-story.html http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/culture/la-et-cm-t... --- CNN anchor Ashleigh Banfield this week questioned whether the Jefferson Memorial should be taken down because Jefferson owned slaves. "There is a monument to him in the capital city of the United States. No one ever asks for that to come down," Banfield said. Fellow anchor Don Lemon responded by saying Jefferson represented "the entire United States, not just the South." But he added: "There may come a day when we want to rethink Jefferson. I don't know if we should do that." ---
    - pdabbadabba 11y ago
      It's an interesting and provocative idea, which I appreciate. But I think a little perspective is in order. Jefferson owned slaves. The confederacy was a nation (or collection of rebel U.S. states, or both, depending on who you ask) founded explicitly on the belief that people of African descent are inferior, that it is their natural and proper condition to be owned by people of European descent, and the (literally) militant defense of the institution of slavery which lead to the deaths of 600,000 people (to say nothing of other ongoing social ills). Both are abhorrent. But the latter is much worse. Jefferson, unlike most confederate figures and institutions, also made important philosophical contributions to the founding ideology of our nation (besides slavery). So, while I'm all for remembering Jefferson's flaws, I think his legacy is, at worse, far more complicated (and better) than that of the Confederacy, confederate symbols, and confederate leaders.
- __z 11y ago
  There's much more here: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/ http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-thi...
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  >The Confederate flag represents and evil institution The US flag represents slavery as well. We changed it to something more socially acceptable, but we moved it to the prisons, stocked it with racist laws, and to this day continue to profit off of forced labor. To say nothing of the slavery American countries profit off of by outsourcing. Of course, prison slavery isn't as bad. Instead of being born a slave if your parents are, you just have a much higher chance of ending up in prison. Instead of being for life, it is for only a portion of your life with strong incentives to bring you back once you are out. But it is still quite horrible.
  - yequalsx 11y ago
    I believe there is an important distinction between a country being founded overtly to preserve an evil institution and one founded with much better ideals but still does and has done many bad things. I don't think the U.S. flag represents slavery. There are instances where the U.S. government has conducted and endorsed slavery. The prison system is atrocious and I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if forced labor in prison can be a good thing or if it is always a bad thing.
    - baakss 11y ago
      I guess it would depend on who you ask. Ask someone from that wedding party that gone attacked by a drone predator missile last year what the U.S. flag represents.
  - merpnderp 11y ago
    The US flag represents a lot of things. For instance the country that declared war on, invaded, and then freed all the slaves in the country represented by the Confederate flag. At a cost of 3.5% of their population as war casualties and 2% of their population as war dead. Not to mention massive social, political and financial upheaval.
- norea-armozel 11y ago
  Burying our head in the sand about the nature of our history won't make the racism we have today go away. If anything, it will aggravate it further as racists will find this a tool to promote their agenda.
  - yequalsx 11y ago
    Of course it won't make racism go away. Its banning has the positive effect of making overtly racist symbols less socially acceptable. It will aggravate anger amongst racists but I don't think it will spread said racism.
    - norea-armozel 11y ago
      I'm fairly sure that racism in America is pretty much alive. Racism doesn't always mean calling someone a racial slur or re-enacting the curb stomping scene from American History X, more often it means looking at other people as less than you or more dangerous or unemployable. That racism is still very normal in America and it will take more than a generation for it die out.
  - jrs235 11y ago
    I concur, and I think it might be doing even more disservice as many will shortly be quick to say "Racism? Racism isn't a problem. We got rid of the Confederate flag." By removing the visible signs of issues, you remove the easiest ways to talk about and educate others about the issue.
    - norea-armozel 11y ago
      Exactly. No one really talks much about how biracial people are mistreated in the US, but it happens all too often (A couple close friends had to deal with it all their lives). And yet I've had people tell me "But Obama is President, so there can't be racism now." Pfft!
      - vonmoltke 11y ago
- yincrash 11y ago
  No one is saying it isn't. It still represented the Confederate States of America in battle, so if you have a videogame trying to accurately represent a battle in the Civil War, "because it's racist" isn't a reason to make it historically inaccurate.
  - yequalsx 11y ago
    Perhaps no one you know isn't denying that the Confederate flag represents slavery and racism but there are plenty of people who do deny this. Move to Mississippi to find plenty of such people.
    - yincrash 11y ago
      Apologies. I was referring to this Hacker News page. I was born in raised in Georgia, so I'm aware of such people. It just seemed like the argument wasn't strong in this context.
- moron4hire 11y ago
  I think your comment is really out of place here, because I don't think anyone here is arguing for what you're arguing against. Regardless, the Confederate Flag is something other than a symbol of overt racism. It is the emblem of the Confederate Army that is most recognizable to modern people. It's certainly because of that fact that the flag is also a symbol of overt racism. When presenting media of a historical genre, to represent the Confederate Army, I think it's appropriate to use the Confederate Flag.
  - yequalsx 11y ago
    There's a lot of talk about historical accuracy with regard to Apple's decision. Hence it's in context to post what exactly that flag represented to the people at the time of secession. When I lived in the South I never saw anyone other than white people flying that flag. It didn't represent pride to non-whites and the declarations of white people that it was part of their heritage went along with talk about 'those' people. Here are some things I experienced while living in the South. My first promotion ever was when I worked as a bag boy in a grocery store. I was promoted because, "There's nothing but a bunch of sorry niggers working here so I'm giving it to you." I was told once by an evangelical, white Christian that black churches didn't really count as Christian because they don't truly believe. They don't have the commitment that we do. I was told by another person that slaves were treated well and that the war had nothing to do with slavery. These are all anecdotes but the impression left was indelible. The people telling me these things were nice people. People I never suspected of harboring such feelings. Whenever the Confederate flag is flown or defended in anyway I think it is appropriate to remind people of just what secession meant to the people at the time. I typically encounter defensive reactions to such reminders and this means, at least to me, that more reminders are needed.
    - moron4hire 11y ago
      Again, you're like completely ignoring that nobody is disputing the fact that the flag represented a racist ideology. I grew up around people who flew the flag like that, and yeah, they're universally racist assholes. In the North! Apparently they're too ignorant to even know what the Mason Dixon Line means. But we're talking about depictions of the flag in dramatizations of the Civil War.
- thomnottom 11y ago
  I saw a quote from a historian years ago (I wish I could find it) that went something like this: When I was young I thought the Civil War was about slavery, When I started to learn more about history I thought it was about more than slavery, When I really studied the Civil War I realized it was completely about slavery. It's easy for people to get tripped up by their own ideologies and lose site of the time period that the Civil War occurred in. If you're all about states' rights these days, it's easy to focus on that part of the Civil War because it fits your narrative. Unfortunately it ignores that the only states' right that they were really concerned with was that which kept slavery legal. I know this because there was definitely a time when I felt that way. Thankfully I eventually realized I was wrong.
- nmrm2 11y ago
  > It astounds me that there are large numbers of whites in this country who think the Civil War was about anything other than slavery. Indoctrination with these beliefs in pretty common at high schools in places like Mississippi and S. Carolina, and even at (rural) high schools in border states. We watched Gone With the Wind in my History class in high school. Not when discussing e.g. "the role of film in civil rights/modern history" mind you, but when discussing reconstruction. It was pretty explicitly treated as a more-or-less accurate portrayal.
- Brendinooo 11y ago
  I don't have a horse in this race - I'm a 'Northerner' who doesn't fly the Confederate flag and has never been a fan of people who do, but I never felt like it was my place to call others out. As such, I don't particularly take issue with the removal of the flag from public institutions. It's probably a good thing. However, I do take issue with narrow oversimplifications, and as such I would encourage you to do some research before making such blanket statements. I have some people close to me who once wore t-shirts that had elements of the flag on them. If I were to ask them why they wore it, they would not answer or think anything along the lines of "overt racism." They're just people who have a bit of a redneck streak, are into country music, hunting, etc. Symbols are what we make them to be. As someone in the design world I am very aware of this. Perhaps your experience is that everyone around you who sports the flag is an overt racist, but that hasn't been the experience for me. Do I still think it's misguided to use the flag? Personally, yes. But I think to paint the issue with such a broad brush doesn't do anyone any good. Same thing about those "who think the Civil War was about anything other than slavery" - I think there's a solid case to be made for that among the "power brokers", but as is the case in history, things were much more nuanced, particularly for the rank and file. Search around a bit for why your average non-slave-owning Southerner signed up for the war, or even look at a guy like Robert E. Lee. If you're interested in the nuances of the secession question, check out http://history.stackexchange.com/q/2056 http://history.stackexchange.com/q/2056 - lots of good points on either end of the spectrum. TL;DR: History is complex, be careful about blanket statements.
  - yequalsx 11y ago
    I specifically mentioned the power brokers because their words are known. I quoted some of their words. As such I'm not making a blanket statement about everyone in the South at that time. The flag at its inception represents something overtly racist. People used it to rally others when opposing the Civil Rights Act and desegregation. Now they use the coded language of 'Southern pride' and 'Southern heritage'. In much the same way that the famous Southern Strategy of the Republican party in the 80s used coded language to talk about race. Welfare queens, ghetto kids, etc. Can you find a knowledgable person who flies that flag who isn't a racist? Knowledgable about what the declarations of secession actually say? I haven't encountered such people. I met a lot of people in the South who I never thought of being racists. But their racism was subtle and underneath their outward appearance. At my first job the manager was a very nice gentleman. Then one day he gave me a promotion and said to me, "I'm giving you this promotion because all we have here are a bunch of sorry niggers." I'm white. I had many other such encounters. In secret when others weren't around, if you gained enough confidence, it came out.
- Frozenlock 11y ago
  Or, you know, things are sometimes more complicated than the political spin given on them. (Especially by the winners) Surely you know that Lincoln didn't care about the slaves (or at least they weren't his highest prority, which is odd for a war that's supposed to be about slavery.): > “My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union…” It's also a complex situation about taxes, jurisdictions and a supposedly 'voluntary' union between states. I suppose one does not take likely the realization that their voluntary cooperation was in fact hidden servitude. What boggles the mind is seeing how people on HN are very skeptical of any current politician, but will gladly accept many propaganda issued by past ones. Do many of you believe that the crusades were really to free the Holy Land? That it was for the good of the people? > "It astounds me that there are large numbers of whites in this country who think the Civil War was about anything other than slavery." And it astounds me that a large numbers of whites in USA think that their history was a series of clear cut victories against evil enemies. And when the enemies were from within the borders... well they were also evil. Obviously.
mladenkovacevic 11y ago
The scariest thing is how fast sweeping and unanimous these acts of compliance are. It's like these companies just woke up suddenly, had a conference call and without a hint of discussion, analysis or feedback started enforcing moral revisionism. It reeks of dishonest, cheap PR. What's next on the agenda? The saddest part is that this has totally taken over the discussion of shootings in North Carolina. US is unique in that 9 people gunned down in cold blood somehow turns into a discussion about a flag?
- onewaystreet 11y ago
  Because gun control is pretty much dead in the US. If 20 children being killed in the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting wasn't enough to pass new legislation, 9 adults certainly wouldn't be. The flag has become an issue so politicians can be seen "doing something."
  - brobinson 11y ago
    Sounds like an instance of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism
  - MBCook 11y ago
    Yeah. No need to discus gun control, the issue with SC is clearly racism. And how do we get rid of racism? Remove the symbol. We'll get rid of the symbol and the racism will be fixed. We took action! We did something! It's solved! Time to move on. What's the point in discussing complicated issues of housing development or law enforcement and making changes that might not have a positive and noticeable effect for a generation or two? It's good we did something now. Now it's solved.
    - mladenkovacevic 11y ago
      This one's a little different still. What you're describing is small-scale political misdirection and shortsightedness. Politicians always react in this nonsensical way whether motivated by powerful lobby groups or personal advancement. Here we also have large corporations that seemingly have no horse in this race other than some cheap, blatantly dishonest PR participating in this moral misdirection on a grand scale. For what reason? I doubt Apple's comical over-reaching in banning of these games is worth the liberal brownie points. Does this maybe have something to with using the confederate flag controversy to distract people from the Trans Pacific Partnership bill which is being rammed through without any significant challenges as we speak?
NoGravitas 11y ago
Interesting question for me -- can you/are you expected to play as the Confederates in these games? Because a game where you play as the Union and the Confederates are the "bad guys" is certainly not glorifying the "Lost Cause", no matter how many Confederate flags there are in it.
T3RMINATED 11y ago
i wonder if they will pull all USA vs Germany games... it has the Nazi Flag.
DanBC 11y ago
I'd be interested to know if they allow some of these (unmodified) games back on. I suspect this is a poorly handled auto ban of anything with the flag and not the intended result.
MBCook 11y ago
This is a very Apple move. When I saw it, I wasn't surprised. There are Civil War games where it makes total sense for the flag to show, and there are probably a few tasteless "The south will rise again" things that never should have been allowed on in the first place. But it takes a lot of people and time to figure it out for each app on the store. And when it comes to this kind of stuff Apple doesn't like spending lots of people and time on these kind of things. Blanket bans are so much easier to implement. Quite disappointing, but not surprising. And they'll probably reverse parts of it within days. Or new games will slip through and people will forget about it.
- moron4hire 11y ago
  > But it takes a lot of people and time to figure it out for each app on the store. Right, because why would they dedicate resources and effort to the biggest feature of their biggest product?
  - justizin 11y ago
    Because a solution that requires a hundred people to let through 1% of submissions is a terrible way to do business.
    - moron4hire 11y ago
      Why? That is not obvious at all. I mean, that very concept "curation to ensure quality", is the entire justification for putting up with their walled-garden, rent-seeking, prior-restraint practices. So why shouldn't we expect them to do their fucking job?
- jasonlotito 11y ago
  > But it takes a lot of people and time to figure it out for each app on the store. They've already approved these apps. They already have the people to approve these apps. > And when it comes to this kind of stuff Apple doesn't like spending lots of people and time on these kind of things. Incorrect. They've already demonstrated they want to do this. After all, you had to have people find and remove these apps in the first place.
deleted 11y ago
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moron4hire 11y ago
This is clearly going too far.
- alttab 11y ago
  There really doesn't need to be any other comments on the thread either. This sums it up nicely.
- joshuapants 11y ago
  I agree. It's one thing to stop selling actual Confederate flags, it's another to try and scrub any mention of a historical event or depiction of a certain symbol in context. Apple is certainly within their rights to do this, but I think it's silly and impulsive.
  - melling 11y ago
    No, it's wrong to stop selling the Confederate flag too. We don't seem to value freedom of speech and expression like we should. We are basically going on modern witch hunts against people who disagree with anything that's not politically correct.
    - __z 11y ago
      If you want a Confederate battle flag there are lots of places you can buy one. If you feel they aren't available enough to your liking you are free to make one or even start selling them yourself. Walmart making a business decision to stop selling something that is racist has nothing to do with freedom of speech. It would also be a poor business decision to start selling ISIS flags, Nazi symbolism, those racist figurines that were once popular, a holocaust reenactment video game, KKK robes, or any other merchandise that divides their customer base. So what? Part of freedom is the freedom to choose what you do and don't sell.
      - melling 11y ago
        Why would Amazon refuse to sell the Confederate flag but not Nazi merchandise? http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/25/us-usa-shooting-south-carolina-internet-idUSKBN0P42V620150625 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/25/us-usa-shooting-so...
Mithaldu 11y ago
Germany has a law about this, with some exceptions that would specifically apply to cases like this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_§_86a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_§_86a When a movie like Iron Sky has no problem being shown in German cinemas with the swastika left untouched, because it's clearly art, then it should be fairly obvious to Apple that banning historically accurate representations in historically accurate interactive art is far overreaching; though not legally, but ethically.
- DasIch 11y ago
  These exceptions might apply to cases such as this one, whether they do is unknown and no publisher has dared to find out. In practice all games that contain forbidden symbols get a German version in which these are replaced for example in the Wolfenstein franchise (that were not censored due to violence).
  - Mithaldu 11y ago
    Only because the german government, like any government, is old and slow, and as of yet does not classify computer games as art, citing the interactive aspect as an enabler of contextual reinterpretation; AND because many foreign game creators simply censor themselves proactively instead of taking this matter to court. There is a very reasonable expectation of this changing at some point in the future.
    - HarryHirsch 11y ago
      What the German courts are doing is enforcing the taboo on swastikas and anything else H*tler-related. I can understand why they are doing it and would like them to continue.
      - Mithaldu 11y ago
        You're being extremely vague to the point of making your comment a non-sequitur. Are you agreeing with the law exactly as it is written? (I am.) Are you agreeing with the interpretation of the law as it applies to computer games? (I don't.) Do you think computer games should never be allowed to contain historical symbols of forbidden groups? (I don't.) Do you think computer games should be allowed the usage if the usage serves the art? (I do.)
deedubaya 11y ago
Banning the symbol will only add credit to and strengthen the idea.
jfoutz 11y ago
I thought the Union flag had somewhere around 35 stars. It's Apple's playground, they can do whatever they want. This seems ham fisted to me, but i understand the desire to simply eradicate all evidence. They're not in the business of historical accuracy. They're in the business of selling stuff. bad feelings about imagery interferes with selling stuff.
protomyth 11y ago
This is absolute BS. Using a flag in a historical context should not be censored. Did they sensor history apps? Once again, app developer take a hit while "real authors / artists" don't have to deal with this crap.
JohnGB 11y ago
So what about all WWII games that have a swastika, or any number of historical flags that are simply referencing history rather than supporting an ideal? This is plain ridiculous.
- nsxwolf 11y ago
  First thing I checked was Wolfenstein 3D - and it's still there. The messaging on this is really bad. You can't feign outrage at symbols of slavery without doing the same for symbols of genocide.
  - smanuel 11y ago
    Well, I guess that's a very delicate subject to talk about. In Wolfenstein 3D you can't play a nazzi shooting Americans (for example). You play the good guy shooting the bad guys. I also don't think the problem is the flag. IMO the real problem is that in most of the games you can play on both sides. Kids can easily start identifying themselves as the side on which they play and forget the important details. Like... history.
    - sologoub 11y ago
      As a kid growing up in USSR, we often played various WWII themed games and someone had to be the nazi. We usually did a coin toss and as far as I know, none of the kids turned into the actual nazis or far right extremists. Sometimes kids play is just that - kids play...
      - justizin 11y ago
        That's fine. I don't think Apple is saying, "We believe this game is morally wrong", I think Apple is saying, "We don't want to touch that with a ten foot pole."
- mc32 11y ago
  They might as well ban the Turkish flag too as that is a symbol of the genocide against Armenians --or the Soviet flag as it symbolizes the oppression of many nations and peoples by the soviet regime. And apple would cede, if the people affected made enough of a fuss, so this whole thing is more about perception and PR more than actual beliefs in justice, etc.
michaelrhansen 11y ago
It is a historical reference. This clearly was not well thought out.
- hodwik 11y ago
  Except it's not historical, the south didn't actually fly that flag at Gettysburg.
  - vonmoltke 11y ago
    Actually, it was the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia for the entire war following First Manassas, and since the Gettysburg campaign was an ANV campaign it most certainly was flown there.
    - hodwik 11y ago
      I thought the NVA flag was the square jack? The rectangle jack was a navy flag as far as I know.
  - tgibson 11y ago
    I'm pretty certain at least one southern regiment flew this flag at Gettysburg. http://www.nps.gov/museum/exhibits/flags/gett4.htm http://www.nps.gov/museum/exhibits/flags/gett4.htm
ap3 11y ago
Are Siri and the Wikipedia app next on the list ? I don't understand the ban on the historical apps - the civil war did happen and the confederate flag was used. Are nazi flags and symbols banned from ww2 games ?
- infimum 11y ago
  yes, they actually are.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Germany
  - kuschku 11y ago
    No, they are not: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9777948 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9777948
    - BonsaiDen 11y ago
      They are. Games are not recognized as art here in Germany, so they do not get the same treatment as movies or books and have to remove the references. International releases of these games are actually illegal in Germany and owning them is an indictable act, although actual criminal charges are very rare (since there's hardly a way of controlling the digital distribution).
      - Mithaldu 11y ago
        You're all right and wrong. They are in a quantum state. The youth protection agency thinks games are not art and as such wishes to not allow them. However the matter has never been in front of a legal court, and until that is done, they are only censored out or pro-active fear, not because they're actually illegal.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - hueving 11y ago
    I believe he/she meant by Apple
snarfy 11y ago
Will they also remove WWII games with Nazi flags?
- merpnderp 11y ago
  Why stop there? The Hammer and Sickle represent the slaughter and enslavement of tens of millions. The Chinese flag at one point represented normal people being forced to run small metal smelters in their backyards exposing them to the joys of heavy metal poisoning and rank air pollution (when they weren't being starved for political reasons). We have a lot of flags left to ban!!!
rrss1122 11y ago
Why is everyone trying to erase history all of a sudden? Because somebody felt bad?
- jameskilton 11y ago
  Please don't hyperbolize. Removing the Confederate flags from public places like government buildings and refusing to sell merchandise with the flag is not erasing history. And I'd call the regular terrorizing and murder of black people under this flag far more than "someone felt bad". Apple simply took a way-to-heavy-handed approach here.
  - RyanZAG 11y ago
    It's the flag that is terrorizing people, or people doing it? Will the terrorizing be better if it happens under a different flag? I have a hard time believing the flag is at fault and not the people, or that removing a flag will stop people from doing the same acts.
    - hackuser 11y ago
      The flag, flying on a statehouse, sends a message that racial hatred is acceptable to society. It doesn't make someone kill (and there are many more problems with racism than murders or that one incident), but it creates an environment where hate appears to be acceptable.
  - strictnein 11y ago
    Talk about hyperbole.
  - Someone1234 11y ago
    I'm not from the US and thus have no skin in this game, but even I can see that while this movement (to remove the Confederate flag) started out with good motivations (e.g. removing them from public buildings) now it has been taken too far (stopped sales, harassing the manufacturers, banned from places, removed from app store, etc). It really does seem like people are trying to erase it from existence (alright, a little hyperbolic, but still). I totally understand the negative connotation and why that exists. And the fact that public institutions still fly it is "disturbing." But people against it should stop while they're ahead, they'll only see a massive backlash if this keeps up. PS - I wonder how hard it will be for educators, civil war re-creationists, and similar to get a Confederate flag?
transfire 11y ago
The North has finally won the war!
tosseraccount 11y ago
Apple can do what they want. Free speech and all. That said, this is silly. Apple should respect their developers and let them use historical symbols used by the opposing sides.
zelos 11y ago
Possibly this is just Apple pushing the burden of proof onto the developers? They could have had their app reviewers go through every app one by one and try to understand the context, or they can do this and force the developers that care to justify the use of the flag. Pretty stupid, anyway.
kirkbackus 11y ago
It's quite ironic that Apple is setting a precedent for the intolerance of any symbol of slavery while they are knowingly supporting manufacturing which utilizes child labor, which is often forced labor. The epitome of hypocrisy which hopefully leads Apple to change.
- eric_h 11y ago
  You seriously need to cite some sources if you're going to make a claim like that.
  - shaneramey 11y ago
    http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30532463 http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30532463 http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/apr/30/apple-chinese-workers-treated-inhumanely http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/apr/30/apple-chin... http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-apple-suppliers-accused-of-poor-treatment-of-workers-2014-12 http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-apple-suppliers-accused-o... The accusations are some widespread that it caused Apple to publish this: https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/ https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/
- Someone1234 11y ago
  I would absolutely agree that Apple's workers in China and elsewhere work under harsh conditions that would simply would not accept in the West. But do you know for a fact that Apple utilises child labour or is that more speculation? I know it is common in clothing manufacturing (and other cloth-like accessories e.g. shoes, bags, etc) but didn't know it was common in electronics and or in China.
crxgames 11y ago
This is ridiculous. I bet they leave Nazi WWII games.
- Zigurd 11y ago
  This is, quite possibly, reasonable. As you point out, they probably approve WWII historical games with Nazi symbols in them. But they probably don't approve content that glorifies Naziism. So if you have content that wasn't similarly vetted regarding the CORRECTION: Army of Northern Virginia battle flag (not "stars and bars"), what can you do but de-authorize all of it and start over?
  - vonmoltke 11y ago
    Nitpick: the "Stars and Bars" flag and the ANV battle flag are not the same: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#First_national_flag:_.22The_Stars_and_Bars.22_.281861.E2.80.931863.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_State...
    - Zigurd 11y ago
      Hardly a nitpick! That deserves a correction. "Stars and bars" is a commonplace misnomer. Army of Northern Virginia battle flag is probably the correct thing to call it.
  - Dirlewanger 11y ago
    What can you do? How about not kowtowing to the outrage of the week and indiscriminately banning games because they have images of the flag? I don't think any of these games are glorifying the Confederacy.
vezzy-fnord 11y ago
It isn't even historically accurate anyway because the CSA never actually used that flag. It was briefly used as the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.
- Someone1234 11y ago
  What you're saying doesn't seem historically accurate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#Second_national_flag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_State... Even being extremely pedantic it doesn't seem accurate, that symbol was used all over the place during the American Civil war to support the Confederated states (both as a battle flag, and as their second and within their third official flags). Essentially when the war ended that was their primary symbol, and would be completely appropriate to be used in a war game about the American civil war.
arca_vorago 11y ago
A slippery slope down the road to censorship. When you place yourself at the head of the censorship table, you open up a can of worms that is difficult to close. (and no, I am not referencing "censorship" of illegal material) For me though, this is nothing new for Apple, and it's why I don't like their software in general. As RMS said, roughly, "Apple puts the user in a prison. It is a beautiful prison though." Some people embrace the beautiful prison for it's simplicity and ease of use. I suppose that's their choice, but what will they do when they wake up and realize they hate the new warden, after they are so tied into the ecosystem? I still think those who embrace FOSS now will be at a huge advantage as time progresses and the nanny mentality of companies such as Apple and Microsoft becomes more prevalent, and users of those will be at a large disadvantage. RMS is a man ahead of his time and only time will prove him right. As a matter of fact, I think that's part of the reason why MS is trying to get more ground in the open source community, because they understand that FOSS is actually becoming a threat these days, and they are trying wildly to stop the haemorrhaging. In Apple's defense though, I do view them as the lesser of two evils, and would gladly push OSX/iOS on users rather than Windows/Windows Mobile. At least it's unix under the hood, and we can see most of the source code.
- mindslight 11y ago
  > I still think those who embrace FOSS now will be at a huge advantage as time progresses and the nanny mentality of companies such as Apple and Microsoft becomes more prevalent I'm not so sure about that. Apple is doing this to gain favor with their customers, who want to feel safe in an insular bubble. I had long thought that Free would win out economically, when centralized stores were forced to ban torrent clients and the like, but unfortunately the zeitgeist has even shifted to pay streaming apps. This is the real damage that centralization causes - the culture gets permanently warped from internalizing good-enough solutions. Then again we've had decades of receive-only broadcast media conditioning people into thinking centralization is the natural way of things, so maybe it's just going to take that much longer to break it up. Still, I feel that this current decentralization swing might be our last chance to correctly distribute power, besides the otherwise inevitable societal collapse.
skc 11y ago
Their platform, their rules. Simple as that.
dmschulman 11y ago
It'll be great to read the headline "Apple Brings Back American Civil War Games to the App Store" once they realize what a boneheaded move this was.
paulhauggis 11y ago
Political correctness has gone way too far in this country. When the Boston Bomber was on trial, there was a point made that his actions, because it was in the name of Islam, in no way reflects the actions of the entire religion or culture. Yet in South Carolina, the actions of one crazy person somehow now reflects on the entire culture and we need to remove the confederate flag. I don't see Amazon and Ebay removing anything related to Islam and we have had way more deaths related to crazies in that religion than with the Confederate flag. I also find it interesting that many people in government worked extremely fast to get the flag removed. I wished they could work this fast when it comes to actual important issues.
- yequalsx 11y ago
  From Mississippi's Declaration of Secession: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. " The Confederate flag represents the desire to maintain slavery and oppression. The Confederate flag represents a the desire by white Southerners to maintain dominance of another race. Over 600,000 people died in the U.S. Civil War as a result of what the Confederate flag represents. No where near this many Americans have died at the hands of 'crazies in that religion (Islam)'. Removing the Confederate flag and what it represents is an actually important issue to many. Especially those of that race of people who alone can bear exposure to the tropical sun.
- hackuser 11y ago
  In HN and other forums, I notice a strong correlation between the amount of prejudice in a post, and the amount of anger and ignorance in it. There is no reason to tie these issues together. There are many problems in our country; to say one shouldn't be fixed because others persist is silly (and what you describe isn't a problem, but a benefit to our country). It's also very sad that someone would casually and ignorantly insult a religion with over one billion innocent people as members, including many Americans. It's not Muslims or Southern white conservatives that are the problem, it's the bigoted and hateful minorities in all groups -- think what a wonderful world it would be without their anger, discrimination and violence. > we have had way more deaths related to crazies in that religion than with the Confederate flag. That's not true: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-...
a3voices 11y ago
People are way too oversensitive. Reminds me of Muslims getting upset over cartoon drawings of their prophet.
- adventured 11y ago
  Non-stop outrage. It has become a fiesta of outrage porn. It's like an emotional drug addiction for some people, they can't get enough outrage. They'll invent it as needed. The media loves it to, it's great for ratings. So you have both sides feeding on a perpetually worsening cultural spiral.
gadders 11y ago
This is getting silly now. All for removing the flag from public buildings, but this is going too far. Can someone get Taylor Swift on the case please?
deleted 11y ago
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k-mcgrady 11y ago
I get the feeling a lot of people here don't understand how important and destructive symbols like this can be. As stupid as it sounds symbols like that can have a huge impact on society and free speech isn't always the solution. I don't know how corrosive this particular symbol is as I'm not from the states but in general it is completely understandable to me coming from a place where stuff like this is a huge deal with big impacts on society.
- noarchy 11y ago
  >free speech isn't always the solution >I'm not from the states There's a cultural difference that rears its head here. Free speech in the US seems to be nearly-absolute when compared to even its northern neighbour (Canada), which has some provisions for "hate speech". Europe, from what I can see, is even more interventionist. I'm not using this post to argue for or against either perspective, but only to show that people from outside the US bring a very different perspective to the table, and it is reflected in their laws.
  - k-mcgrady 11y ago
    Very true. I don't like the idea of being so rigid though. It seems like Americans stick to the idea of things like free speech or right to bear arms (basically constitutional ideas) without considering the fact they may not be right or times have changed. It's almost a religious zealotry as evidenced by the quick down voting of my post. NB (to everyone not noarchy): Down down vote things you disagree with - down vote things that don't add to the conversation.
    - nsxwolf 11y ago
      You're cutting your own throat when you dismiss freedom of speech.
      - k-mcgrady 11y ago
        Apparently so. It's interesting to watch though. Both my posts, while perfectly reasonable opposite viewpoints are getting down voted a lot. HN feels like reddit when you touch a nerve on freedom of speech. Crowd mentality/emotion seems to take over even in a group that is usually very logical and rational.
fixxer 11y ago
So, they're in effect banning historical fiction? None of these games condone slavery, do they? I totally get and agree with removing the Confederate flag from state flags in the United States -- The confederacy failed. But, must we deny an important part of US history happened?
hackuser 11y ago
I think it's great that Confederate symbols are being removed from government and commercial situations, but somehow it's different for Apple; they have too much power over what their users see and read (though I suppose the users can access whatever websites they want). Mobile apps and games are a significant social medium, and should include political expression. As a weak analogy, though I'm glad various governments may get rid of the flag, I'd very strongly oppose the government banning private citizens from owning them. While what Apple says about privacy is admirable, end-user control is still a serious problem.
jordanpg 11y ago
All of the objections along legal and moral lines are missing the point. While those objections are valid in many cases, the point is that this flag is the symbol of the moment. A rough analogy is the way in which marriage equality has become a proxy for gay rights (whether this is accurate or not). If the flag is shamed out of the public zeitgeist, in the same way that the n-word or the c-word have been, then that is a symbolic victory for those on the side of civil rights. Whatever you think about the actual meaning or symbolism or historical context of the flag is beside the point. Arguments about the importance of "heritage" fall flat because symbols do not teach history; they simply stand in for particular narratives.
salgernon 11y ago
Are they pulling all references to actual confederate States flags, or the army flag of Robert E Lee which more closely resembles the "confederate flag" used in racist contexts today. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_Sta... It seems like the solid flag is now pretty much only used For shock value and racist advertisement, without the historical content. I liked what Dave Winer had to say about his experience with it: http://scripting.com/2015/06/22/theConfederateFlagIsAHateCrime.html http://scripting.com/2015/06/22/theConfederateFlagIsAHateCri...
tempodox 11y ago
What? Blast “the American Nation”, this is pure revisionism. Lying history out of existence because it's not hip at the moment. Apple's obsession with political-correctness-gone-wrong is unbelievable.
Shivetya 11y ago
So we are to assume they will remove Dukes of Hazard from iTunes to complete their kneejerk reaction to this issue? There are probably quite a few album covers with that flag or approximations of it, let alone TV shows and movies. American Civil War games are not racist nor is representing the Civil War or any other conflict in a game. What is next? Scrubbing history books of any offending flag or words?
ccvannorman 11y ago
Apple has proven, time and again, that it heavily favors censorship in the name of profits. The real issue we should be talking about is the de-facto monopoly Apple has because of their hardware device success (e.g. iPhone), and how and when this monopoly will be prevented from censoring the speech and content of millions of lives. Or do we expect monopolistic censorship to be the new norm of the future? Disgusting.
- caryhartline 11y ago
  Is it censorship in the name of profits when they make less money by taking apps off the App Store?
  - slayed0 11y ago
    Short term vs. long term. The immediate short term loss (probably very small) is income from these apps. The long term gain is company image and being known as a company that "does the right thing". There are countless examples of Apple giving up short term profits to preserve this image, which they obviously believe is responsible for greater profits in the long term.
scelerat 11y ago
I'm all for honest public reevaluation of the symbols of the CSA, but this strikes me as a cheap (for Apple) PR move and not conducive to that discussion. If anything it will feed into the paranoid narratives advanced by those who truly believe in the symbolism of the Confederate battle flag, triggering the Streisand effect, or a close relative of it.
rak_112 11y ago
SJWs ruin every thing they touch.
GBond 11y ago
Apple App Store is a private market and thus can legally take down any content they deem. The risk is Apple come off as tone-deaf and with such an over-reaching move. But still that may be a calculated negative impact as Apple has always been image conscience. They don't want to be the next target for the social media #takeitdown mob.
kranner 11y ago
123 points in 2 hours and this is already on page 2 because the number of comments exceeds the number of upvotes? I would have missed this discussion if I hadn't checked HN in the last 2 hours. Is it time for HN to review whether the upvotes-vs-comments penalization-heuristic still makes sense? It's feeling a little ad hoc and brittle to me.
solveforall 11y ago
I understand that the Confederate flag evokes strong, negative reactions from black people, as it probably should. So it may be disturbing to see the flag while browsing the App Store, and this is something Apple justifiably would want to prevent, and they have the right to do so. But to ban the display of a Confederate flag within a Civil War game that you have intentionally downloaded seems ludicrous. Games like this seem quite educational and to strip them of historical accuracy for the sake of political correctness is a real shame. I feel this is another sign that we are headed towards a culture that does not tolerate anything that might offend anyone, an intolerance of intolerance.
- MBCook 11y ago
  Apple will change directions on this and fix the historical games and such that are taken down, they always do. It will probably be a non-issue within a week or two. This is just the quickest, laziest, and a relatively ham-fisted way to get rid of the actually problematic apps, so that's what they did. Sadly thats kinda status-quo for Apple dealing with this kind of stuff.
Wintamute 11y ago
If we censor history how do we learn from it as a society? By giving nazi, confederate or any other problematic symbology special status as something too terrible to even gaze upon we elevate it to something almost suprahuman, and we forget that these atrocities were perpetrated by humans for the most part just like us. It makes those dark times just that bit more likely to come to pass again. This is small minded, unethical and irresponsible of Apple.
hughw 11y ago
So many comments here, on this topic, are in the sense of "Oh great we're talking about a symbol, while not fixing the root causes like guns and racism". I have a sense that's a POV of West Coasters, simply unable to fathom the depth of this symbol and its importance to racists, anti-racists, and its presence permeating everyday life in the South. Removing this symbol is a traumatic step even for many people of good will. The symbol is everywhere, and usually is employed innocuously. So getting rid of the symbol, even where used innocuously, means that even the people who intend no harm by it, have come to be conscious of the pain it causes to black descendants of slaves, every day. It's a big step for the southern "middle".
nathan_long 11y ago
A lot of the debate here pits "users can decide what's acceptable" against "Apple can decide what to sell". The only reason these seem incompatible is that iPhone owners can only get apps from Apple. If you want both Apple and users to have freedom of choice, lock-in is the real enemy. (Side note: lock-in also goes hand-in-hand with DRM, which goes hand-in-hand with surveillance: if the user isn't allowed to see what code they're running, and the software company isn't allowed to disclose what the government made them do, then the user can't know how their device is bugged. Cory Doctorow explains nicely how fighting lock-in and DRM is good for political freedom, too: https://vimeo.com/123473929 https://vimeo.com/123473929)

173 points by sehugg 11y ago

Interesting. It seems like in a historical context such as this, accuracy is more important than some random current events association thing. Weird move, Apple... Removing "unnecessary" references (ones without any historical context or other legit justification) might be more reasonable.

deleted 11y ago

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mariodiana 11y ago

Political correctness has gone mainstream, turning American culture into a Neo-Puritan age where everyone is elbowing past others to demonstrate how righteous and socially conscious he or she is.

yequalsx 11y ago

Here is part of Mississippi's Declaration of Secession: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. " It astounds me that there are large numbers of whites in this country who think the Civil War was about anything other than slavery. The Confederate flag represents and evil institution and represents the evil intent of white Southern power brokers 155 years ago. I don't have an opinion as such on Apple's decision but let's not pretend that the Confederate flag is anything other than a symbol of overt racism.

jrs235 11y ago
I see the Confederate flag primarily evoking three topics: states rights, slavery, and racism. All three were at stake with the Civil war. However, Mississippi's Declaration of Secession shows how racism, not just the "institution of slavery", was at the forefront of their desire to leave the Union. From their declaration, Mississippi probably wouldn't have been as/too upset about losing Irish slaves.
pdabbadabba 11y ago
Yep. More people need to know these things. Here is another one: "Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth." Confederate Vice President Alexander H. Stephens Savannah, Georgia March 21, 1861 http://web.archive.org/web/20130822142313/http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/cornerstone-speech/ http://web.archive.org/web/20130822142313/http://teachingame...
- melling 11y ago
  Jefferson owned slaves. While we're cleaning up our history, maybe it's time to tear down the Jefferson Memorial? http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/culture/la-et-cm-thomas-jefferson-confederate-statues-20150624-story.html http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/culture/la-et-cm-t... --- CNN anchor Ashleigh Banfield this week questioned whether the Jefferson Memorial should be taken down because Jefferson owned slaves. "There is a monument to him in the capital city of the United States. No one ever asks for that to come down," Banfield said. Fellow anchor Don Lemon responded by saying Jefferson represented "the entire United States, not just the South." But he added: "There may come a day when we want to rethink Jefferson. I don't know if we should do that." ---
  - pdabbadabba 11y ago
    It's an interesting and provocative idea, which I appreciate. But I think a little perspective is in order. Jefferson owned slaves. The confederacy was a nation (or collection of rebel U.S. states, or both, depending on who you ask) founded explicitly on the belief that people of African descent are inferior, that it is their natural and proper condition to be owned by people of European descent, and the (literally) militant defense of the institution of slavery which lead to the deaths of 600,000 people (to say nothing of other ongoing social ills). Both are abhorrent. But the latter is much worse. Jefferson, unlike most confederate figures and institutions, also made important philosophical contributions to the founding ideology of our nation (besides slavery). So, while I'm all for remembering Jefferson's flaws, I think his legacy is, at worse, far more complicated (and better) than that of the Confederacy, confederate symbols, and confederate leaders.
__z 11y ago
There's much more here: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/ http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-thi...
Lawtonfogle 11y ago
>The Confederate flag represents and evil institution The US flag represents slavery as well. We changed it to something more socially acceptable, but we moved it to the prisons, stocked it with racist laws, and to this day continue to profit off of forced labor. To say nothing of the slavery American countries profit off of by outsourcing. Of course, prison slavery isn't as bad. Instead of being born a slave if your parents are, you just have a much higher chance of ending up in prison. Instead of being for life, it is for only a portion of your life with strong incentives to bring you back once you are out. But it is still quite horrible.
- yequalsx 11y ago
  I believe there is an important distinction between a country being founded overtly to preserve an evil institution and one founded with much better ideals but still does and has done many bad things. I don't think the U.S. flag represents slavery. There are instances where the U.S. government has conducted and endorsed slavery. The prison system is atrocious and I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if forced labor in prison can be a good thing or if it is always a bad thing.
  - baakss 11y ago
    I guess it would depend on who you ask. Ask someone from that wedding party that gone attacked by a drone predator missile last year what the U.S. flag represents.
- merpnderp 11y ago
  The US flag represents a lot of things. For instance the country that declared war on, invaded, and then freed all the slaves in the country represented by the Confederate flag. At a cost of 3.5% of their population as war casualties and 2% of their population as war dead. Not to mention massive social, political and financial upheaval.
norea-armozel 11y ago
Burying our head in the sand about the nature of our history won't make the racism we have today go away. If anything, it will aggravate it further as racists will find this a tool to promote their agenda.
- yequalsx 11y ago
  Of course it won't make racism go away. Its banning has the positive effect of making overtly racist symbols less socially acceptable. It will aggravate anger amongst racists but I don't think it will spread said racism.
  - norea-armozel 11y ago
    I'm fairly sure that racism in America is pretty much alive. Racism doesn't always mean calling someone a racial slur or re-enacting the curb stomping scene from American History X, more often it means looking at other people as less than you or more dangerous or unemployable. That racism is still very normal in America and it will take more than a generation for it die out.
- jrs235 11y ago
  I concur, and I think it might be doing even more disservice as many will shortly be quick to say "Racism? Racism isn't a problem. We got rid of the Confederate flag." By removing the visible signs of issues, you remove the easiest ways to talk about and educate others about the issue.
  - norea-armozel 11y ago
    Exactly. No one really talks much about how biracial people are mistreated in the US, but it happens all too often (A couple close friends had to deal with it all their lives). And yet I've had people tell me "But Obama is President, so there can't be racism now." Pfft!
    - vonmoltke 11y ago
yincrash 11y ago
No one is saying it isn't. It still represented the Confederate States of America in battle, so if you have a videogame trying to accurately represent a battle in the Civil War, "because it's racist" isn't a reason to make it historically inaccurate.
- yequalsx 11y ago
  Perhaps no one you know isn't denying that the Confederate flag represents slavery and racism but there are plenty of people who do deny this. Move to Mississippi to find plenty of such people.
  - yincrash 11y ago
    Apologies. I was referring to this Hacker News page. I was born in raised in Georgia, so I'm aware of such people. It just seemed like the argument wasn't strong in this context.
moron4hire 11y ago
I think your comment is really out of place here, because I don't think anyone here is arguing for what you're arguing against. Regardless, the Confederate Flag is something other than a symbol of overt racism. It is the emblem of the Confederate Army that is most recognizable to modern people. It's certainly because of that fact that the flag is also a symbol of overt racism. When presenting media of a historical genre, to represent the Confederate Army, I think it's appropriate to use the Confederate Flag.
- yequalsx 11y ago
  There's a lot of talk about historical accuracy with regard to Apple's decision. Hence it's in context to post what exactly that flag represented to the people at the time of secession. When I lived in the South I never saw anyone other than white people flying that flag. It didn't represent pride to non-whites and the declarations of white people that it was part of their heritage went along with talk about 'those' people. Here are some things I experienced while living in the South. My first promotion ever was when I worked as a bag boy in a grocery store. I was promoted because, "There's nothing but a bunch of sorry niggers working here so I'm giving it to you." I was told once by an evangelical, white Christian that black churches didn't really count as Christian because they don't truly believe. They don't have the commitment that we do. I was told by another person that slaves were treated well and that the war had nothing to do with slavery. These are all anecdotes but the impression left was indelible. The people telling me these things were nice people. People I never suspected of harboring such feelings. Whenever the Confederate flag is flown or defended in anyway I think it is appropriate to remind people of just what secession meant to the people at the time. I typically encounter defensive reactions to such reminders and this means, at least to me, that more reminders are needed.
  - moron4hire 11y ago
    Again, you're like completely ignoring that nobody is disputing the fact that the flag represented a racist ideology. I grew up around people who flew the flag like that, and yeah, they're universally racist assholes. In the North! Apparently they're too ignorant to even know what the Mason Dixon Line means. But we're talking about depictions of the flag in dramatizations of the Civil War.
thomnottom 11y ago
I saw a quote from a historian years ago (I wish I could find it) that went something like this: When I was young I thought the Civil War was about slavery, When I started to learn more about history I thought it was about more than slavery, When I really studied the Civil War I realized it was completely about slavery. It's easy for people to get tripped up by their own ideologies and lose site of the time period that the Civil War occurred in. If you're all about states' rights these days, it's easy to focus on that part of the Civil War because it fits your narrative. Unfortunately it ignores that the only states' right that they were really concerned with was that which kept slavery legal. I know this because there was definitely a time when I felt that way. Thankfully I eventually realized I was wrong.
nmrm2 11y ago
> It astounds me that there are large numbers of whites in this country who think the Civil War was about anything other than slavery. Indoctrination with these beliefs in pretty common at high schools in places like Mississippi and S. Carolina, and even at (rural) high schools in border states. We watched Gone With the Wind in my History class in high school. Not when discussing e.g. "the role of film in civil rights/modern history" mind you, but when discussing reconstruction. It was pretty explicitly treated as a more-or-less accurate portrayal.
Brendinooo 11y ago
I don't have a horse in this race - I'm a 'Northerner' who doesn't fly the Confederate flag and has never been a fan of people who do, but I never felt like it was my place to call others out. As such, I don't particularly take issue with the removal of the flag from public institutions. It's probably a good thing. However, I do take issue with narrow oversimplifications, and as such I would encourage you to do some research before making such blanket statements. I have some people close to me who once wore t-shirts that had elements of the flag on them. If I were to ask them why they wore it, they would not answer or think anything along the lines of "overt racism." They're just people who have a bit of a redneck streak, are into country music, hunting, etc. Symbols are what we make them to be. As someone in the design world I am very aware of this. Perhaps your experience is that everyone around you who sports the flag is an overt racist, but that hasn't been the experience for me. Do I still think it's misguided to use the flag? Personally, yes. But I think to paint the issue with such a broad brush doesn't do anyone any good. Same thing about those "who think the Civil War was about anything other than slavery" - I think there's a solid case to be made for that among the "power brokers", but as is the case in history, things were much more nuanced, particularly for the rank and file. Search around a bit for why your average non-slave-owning Southerner signed up for the war, or even look at a guy like Robert E. Lee. If you're interested in the nuances of the secession question, check out http://history.stackexchange.com/q/2056 http://history.stackexchange.com/q/2056 - lots of good points on either end of the spectrum. TL;DR: History is complex, be careful about blanket statements.
- yequalsx 11y ago
  I specifically mentioned the power brokers because their words are known. I quoted some of their words. As such I'm not making a blanket statement about everyone in the South at that time. The flag at its inception represents something overtly racist. People used it to rally others when opposing the Civil Rights Act and desegregation. Now they use the coded language of 'Southern pride' and 'Southern heritage'. In much the same way that the famous Southern Strategy of the Republican party in the 80s used coded language to talk about race. Welfare queens, ghetto kids, etc. Can you find a knowledgable person who flies that flag who isn't a racist? Knowledgable about what the declarations of secession actually say? I haven't encountered such people. I met a lot of people in the South who I never thought of being racists. But their racism was subtle and underneath their outward appearance. At my first job the manager was a very nice gentleman. Then one day he gave me a promotion and said to me, "I'm giving you this promotion because all we have here are a bunch of sorry niggers." I'm white. I had many other such encounters. In secret when others weren't around, if you gained enough confidence, it came out.
Frozenlock 11y ago
Or, you know, things are sometimes more complicated than the political spin given on them. (Especially by the winners) Surely you know that Lincoln didn't care about the slaves (or at least they weren't his highest prority, which is odd for a war that's supposed to be about slavery.): > “My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union…” It's also a complex situation about taxes, jurisdictions and a supposedly 'voluntary' union between states. I suppose one does not take likely the realization that their voluntary cooperation was in fact hidden servitude. What boggles the mind is seeing how people on HN are very skeptical of any current politician, but will gladly accept many propaganda issued by past ones. Do many of you believe that the crusades were really to free the Holy Land? That it was for the good of the people? > "It astounds me that there are large numbers of whites in this country who think the Civil War was about anything other than slavery." And it astounds me that a large numbers of whites in USA think that their history was a series of clear cut victories against evil enemies. And when the enemies were from within the borders... well they were also evil. Obviously.

mladenkovacevic 11y ago

The scariest thing is how fast sweeping and unanimous these acts of compliance are. It's like these companies just woke up suddenly, had a conference call and without a hint of discussion, analysis or feedback started enforcing moral revisionism. It reeks of dishonest, cheap PR. What's next on the agenda? The saddest part is that this has totally taken over the discussion of shootings in North Carolina. US is unique in that 9 people gunned down in cold blood somehow turns into a discussion about a flag?

onewaystreet 11y ago
Because gun control is pretty much dead in the US. If 20 children being killed in the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting wasn't enough to pass new legislation, 9 adults certainly wouldn't be. The flag has become an issue so politicians can be seen "doing something."
- brobinson 11y ago
  Sounds like an instance of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism
- MBCook 11y ago
  Yeah. No need to discus gun control, the issue with SC is clearly racism. And how do we get rid of racism? Remove the symbol. We'll get rid of the symbol and the racism will be fixed. We took action! We did something! It's solved! Time to move on. What's the point in discussing complicated issues of housing development or law enforcement and making changes that might not have a positive and noticeable effect for a generation or two? It's good we did something now. Now it's solved.
  - mladenkovacevic 11y ago
    This one's a little different still. What you're describing is small-scale political misdirection and shortsightedness. Politicians always react in this nonsensical way whether motivated by powerful lobby groups or personal advancement. Here we also have large corporations that seemingly have no horse in this race other than some cheap, blatantly dishonest PR participating in this moral misdirection on a grand scale. For what reason? I doubt Apple's comical over-reaching in banning of these games is worth the liberal brownie points. Does this maybe have something to with using the confederate flag controversy to distract people from the Trans Pacific Partnership bill which is being rammed through without any significant challenges as we speak?

NoGravitas 11y ago

Interesting question for me -- can you/are you expected to play as the Confederates in these games? Because a game where you play as the Union and the Confederates are the "bad guys" is certainly not glorifying the "Lost Cause", no matter how many Confederate flags there are in it.

T3RMINATED 11y ago

i wonder if they will pull all USA vs Germany games... it has the Nazi Flag.

DanBC 11y ago

I'd be interested to know if they allow some of these (unmodified) games back on. I suspect this is a poorly handled auto ban of anything with the flag and not the intended result.

MBCook 11y ago

This is a very Apple move. When I saw it, I wasn't surprised. There are Civil War games where it makes total sense for the flag to show, and there are probably a few tasteless "The south will rise again" things that never should have been allowed on in the first place. But it takes a lot of people and time to figure it out for each app on the store. And when it comes to this kind of stuff Apple doesn't like spending lots of people and time on these kind of things. Blanket bans are so much easier to implement. Quite disappointing, but not surprising. And they'll probably reverse parts of it within days. Or new games will slip through and people will forget about it.

moron4hire 11y ago
> But it takes a lot of people and time to figure it out for each app on the store. Right, because why would they dedicate resources and effort to the biggest feature of their biggest product?
- justizin 11y ago
  Because a solution that requires a hundred people to let through 1% of submissions is a terrible way to do business.
  - moron4hire 11y ago
    Why? That is not obvious at all. I mean, that very concept "curation to ensure quality", is the entire justification for putting up with their walled-garden, rent-seeking, prior-restraint practices. So why shouldn't we expect them to do their fucking job?
jasonlotito 11y ago
> But it takes a lot of people and time to figure it out for each app on the store. They've already approved these apps. They already have the people to approve these apps. > And when it comes to this kind of stuff Apple doesn't like spending lots of people and time on these kind of things. Incorrect. They've already demonstrated they want to do this. After all, you had to have people find and remove these apps in the first place.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

moron4hire 11y ago

This is clearly going too far.

alttab 11y ago
There really doesn't need to be any other comments on the thread either. This sums it up nicely.
joshuapants 11y ago
I agree. It's one thing to stop selling actual Confederate flags, it's another to try and scrub any mention of a historical event or depiction of a certain symbol in context. Apple is certainly within their rights to do this, but I think it's silly and impulsive.
- melling 11y ago
  No, it's wrong to stop selling the Confederate flag too. We don't seem to value freedom of speech and expression like we should. We are basically going on modern witch hunts against people who disagree with anything that's not politically correct.
  - __z 11y ago
    If you want a Confederate battle flag there are lots of places you can buy one. If you feel they aren't available enough to your liking you are free to make one or even start selling them yourself. Walmart making a business decision to stop selling something that is racist has nothing to do with freedom of speech. It would also be a poor business decision to start selling ISIS flags, Nazi symbolism, those racist figurines that were once popular, a holocaust reenactment video game, KKK robes, or any other merchandise that divides their customer base. So what? Part of freedom is the freedom to choose what you do and don't sell.
    - melling 11y ago
      Why would Amazon refuse to sell the Confederate flag but not Nazi merchandise? http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/25/us-usa-shooting-south-carolina-internet-idUSKBN0P42V620150625 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/25/us-usa-shooting-so...

Mithaldu 11y ago

Germany has a law about this, with some exceptions that would specifically apply to cases like this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_§_86a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_§_86a When a movie like Iron Sky has no problem being shown in German cinemas with the swastika left untouched, because it's clearly art, then it should be fairly obvious to Apple that banning historically accurate representations in historically accurate interactive art is far overreaching; though not legally, but ethically.

DasIch 11y ago
These exceptions might apply to cases such as this one, whether they do is unknown and no publisher has dared to find out. In practice all games that contain forbidden symbols get a German version in which these are replaced for example in the Wolfenstein franchise (that were not censored due to violence).
- Mithaldu 11y ago
  Only because the german government, like any government, is old and slow, and as of yet does not classify computer games as art, citing the interactive aspect as an enabler of contextual reinterpretation; AND because many foreign game creators simply censor themselves proactively instead of taking this matter to court. There is a very reasonable expectation of this changing at some point in the future.
  - HarryHirsch 11y ago
    What the German courts are doing is enforcing the taboo on swastikas and anything else H*tler-related. I can understand why they are doing it and would like them to continue.
    - Mithaldu 11y ago
      You're being extremely vague to the point of making your comment a non-sequitur. Are you agreeing with the law exactly as it is written? (I am.) Are you agreeing with the interpretation of the law as it applies to computer games? (I don't.) Do you think computer games should never be allowed to contain historical symbols of forbidden groups? (I don't.) Do you think computer games should be allowed the usage if the usage serves the art? (I do.)

deedubaya 11y ago

Banning the symbol will only add credit to and strengthen the idea.

jfoutz 11y ago

I thought the Union flag had somewhere around 35 stars. It's Apple's playground, they can do whatever they want. This seems ham fisted to me, but i understand the desire to simply eradicate all evidence. They're not in the business of historical accuracy. They're in the business of selling stuff. bad feelings about imagery interferes with selling stuff.

protomyth 11y ago

This is absolute BS. Using a flag in a historical context should not be censored. Did they sensor history apps? Once again, app developer take a hit while "real authors / artists" don't have to deal with this crap.

JohnGB 11y ago

So what about all WWII games that have a swastika, or any number of historical flags that are simply referencing history rather than supporting an ideal? This is plain ridiculous.

nsxwolf 11y ago
First thing I checked was Wolfenstein 3D - and it's still there. The messaging on this is really bad. You can't feign outrage at symbols of slavery without doing the same for symbols of genocide.
- smanuel 11y ago
  Well, I guess that's a very delicate subject to talk about. In Wolfenstein 3D you can't play a nazzi shooting Americans (for example). You play the good guy shooting the bad guys. I also don't think the problem is the flag. IMO the real problem is that in most of the games you can play on both sides. Kids can easily start identifying themselves as the side on which they play and forget the important details. Like... history.
  - sologoub 11y ago
    As a kid growing up in USSR, we often played various WWII themed games and someone had to be the nazi. We usually did a coin toss and as far as I know, none of the kids turned into the actual nazis or far right extremists. Sometimes kids play is just that - kids play...
    - justizin 11y ago
      That's fine. I don't think Apple is saying, "We believe this game is morally wrong", I think Apple is saying, "We don't want to touch that with a ten foot pole."
mc32 11y ago
They might as well ban the Turkish flag too as that is a symbol of the genocide against Armenians --or the Soviet flag as it symbolizes the oppression of many nations and peoples by the soviet regime. And apple would cede, if the people affected made enough of a fuss, so this whole thing is more about perception and PR more than actual beliefs in justice, etc.

michaelrhansen 11y ago

It is a historical reference. This clearly was not well thought out.

hodwik 11y ago
Except it's not historical, the south didn't actually fly that flag at Gettysburg.
- vonmoltke 11y ago
  Actually, it was the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia for the entire war following First Manassas, and since the Gettysburg campaign was an ANV campaign it most certainly was flown there.
  - hodwik 11y ago
    I thought the NVA flag was the square jack? The rectangle jack was a navy flag as far as I know.
- tgibson 11y ago
  I'm pretty certain at least one southern regiment flew this flag at Gettysburg. http://www.nps.gov/museum/exhibits/flags/gett4.htm http://www.nps.gov/museum/exhibits/flags/gett4.htm

ap3 11y ago

Are Siri and the Wikipedia app next on the list ? I don't understand the ban on the historical apps - the civil war did happen and the confederate flag was used. Are nazi flags and symbols banned from ww2 games ?

infimum 11y ago
yes, they actually are.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Germany
- kuschku 11y ago
  No, they are not: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9777948 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9777948
  - BonsaiDen 11y ago
    They are. Games are not recognized as art here in Germany, so they do not get the same treatment as movies or books and have to remove the references. International releases of these games are actually illegal in Germany and owning them is an indictable act, although actual criminal charges are very rare (since there's hardly a way of controlling the digital distribution).
    - Mithaldu 11y ago
      You're all right and wrong. They are in a quantum state. The youth protection agency thinks games are not art and as such wishes to not allow them. However the matter has never been in front of a legal court, and until that is done, they are only censored out or pro-active fear, not because they're actually illegal.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- hueving 11y ago
  I believe he/she meant by Apple

snarfy 11y ago

Will they also remove WWII games with Nazi flags?

merpnderp 11y ago
Why stop there? The Hammer and Sickle represent the slaughter and enslavement of tens of millions. The Chinese flag at one point represented normal people being forced to run small metal smelters in their backyards exposing them to the joys of heavy metal poisoning and rank air pollution (when they weren't being starved for political reasons). We have a lot of flags left to ban!!!

rrss1122 11y ago

Why is everyone trying to erase history all of a sudden? Because somebody felt bad?

jameskilton 11y ago
Please don't hyperbolize. Removing the Confederate flags from public places like government buildings and refusing to sell merchandise with the flag is not erasing history. And I'd call the regular terrorizing and murder of black people under this flag far more than "someone felt bad". Apple simply took a way-to-heavy-handed approach here.
- RyanZAG 11y ago
  It's the flag that is terrorizing people, or people doing it? Will the terrorizing be better if it happens under a different flag? I have a hard time believing the flag is at fault and not the people, or that removing a flag will stop people from doing the same acts.
  - hackuser 11y ago
    The flag, flying on a statehouse, sends a message that racial hatred is acceptable to society. It doesn't make someone kill (and there are many more problems with racism than murders or that one incident), but it creates an environment where hate appears to be acceptable.
- strictnein 11y ago
  Talk about hyperbole.
- Someone1234 11y ago
  I'm not from the US and thus have no skin in this game, but even I can see that while this movement (to remove the Confederate flag) started out with good motivations (e.g. removing them from public buildings) now it has been taken too far (stopped sales, harassing the manufacturers, banned from places, removed from app store, etc). It really does seem like people are trying to erase it from existence (alright, a little hyperbolic, but still). I totally understand the negative connotation and why that exists. And the fact that public institutions still fly it is "disturbing." But people against it should stop while they're ahead, they'll only see a massive backlash if this keeps up. PS - I wonder how hard it will be for educators, civil war re-creationists, and similar to get a Confederate flag?

transfire 11y ago

The North has finally won the war!

tosseraccount 11y ago

Apple can do what they want. Free speech and all. That said, this is silly. Apple should respect their developers and let them use historical symbols used by the opposing sides.

zelos 11y ago

Possibly this is just Apple pushing the burden of proof onto the developers? They could have had their app reviewers go through every app one by one and try to understand the context, or they can do this and force the developers that care to justify the use of the flag. Pretty stupid, anyway.

kirkbackus 11y ago

It's quite ironic that Apple is setting a precedent for the intolerance of any symbol of slavery while they are knowingly supporting manufacturing which utilizes child labor, which is often forced labor. The epitome of hypocrisy which hopefully leads Apple to change.

eric_h 11y ago
You seriously need to cite some sources if you're going to make a claim like that.
- shaneramey 11y ago
  http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30532463 http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30532463 http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/apr/30/apple-chinese-workers-treated-inhumanely http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/apr/30/apple-chin... http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-apple-suppliers-accused-of-poor-treatment-of-workers-2014-12 http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-apple-suppliers-accused-o... The accusations are some widespread that it caused Apple to publish this: https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/ https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/
Someone1234 11y ago
I would absolutely agree that Apple's workers in China and elsewhere work under harsh conditions that would simply would not accept in the West. But do you know for a fact that Apple utilises child labour or is that more speculation? I know it is common in clothing manufacturing (and other cloth-like accessories e.g. shoes, bags, etc) but didn't know it was common in electronics and or in China.

crxgames 11y ago

This is ridiculous. I bet they leave Nazi WWII games.

Zigurd 11y ago
This is, quite possibly, reasonable. As you point out, they probably approve WWII historical games with Nazi symbols in them. But they probably don't approve content that glorifies Naziism. So if you have content that wasn't similarly vetted regarding the CORRECTION: Army of Northern Virginia battle flag (not "stars and bars"), what can you do but de-authorize all of it and start over?
- vonmoltke 11y ago
  Nitpick: the "Stars and Bars" flag and the ANV battle flag are not the same: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#First_national_flag:_.22The_Stars_and_Bars.22_.281861.E2.80.931863.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_State...
  - Zigurd 11y ago
    Hardly a nitpick! That deserves a correction. "Stars and bars" is a commonplace misnomer. Army of Northern Virginia battle flag is probably the correct thing to call it.
- Dirlewanger 11y ago
  What can you do? How about not kowtowing to the outrage of the week and indiscriminately banning games because they have images of the flag? I don't think any of these games are glorifying the Confederacy.

vezzy-fnord 11y ago

It isn't even historically accurate anyway because the CSA never actually used that flag. It was briefly used as the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.

Someone1234 11y ago
What you're saying doesn't seem historically accurate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#Second_national_flag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_State... Even being extremely pedantic it doesn't seem accurate, that symbol was used all over the place during the American Civil war to support the Confederated states (both as a battle flag, and as their second and within their third official flags). Essentially when the war ended that was their primary symbol, and would be completely appropriate to be used in a war game about the American civil war.

arca_vorago 11y ago

A slippery slope down the road to censorship. When you place yourself at the head of the censorship table, you open up a can of worms that is difficult to close. (and no, I am not referencing "censorship" of illegal material) For me though, this is nothing new for Apple, and it's why I don't like their software in general. As RMS said, roughly, "Apple puts the user in a prison. It is a beautiful prison though." Some people embrace the beautiful prison for it's simplicity and ease of use. I suppose that's their choice, but what will they do when they wake up and realize they hate the new warden, after they are so tied into the ecosystem? I still think those who embrace FOSS now will be at a huge advantage as time progresses and the nanny mentality of companies such as Apple and Microsoft becomes more prevalent, and users of those will be at a large disadvantage. RMS is a man ahead of his time and only time will prove him right. As a matter of fact, I think that's part of the reason why MS is trying to get more ground in the open source community, because they understand that FOSS is actually becoming a threat these days, and they are trying wildly to stop the haemorrhaging. In Apple's defense though, I do view them as the lesser of two evils, and would gladly push OSX/iOS on users rather than Windows/Windows Mobile. At least it's unix under the hood, and we can see most of the source code.

mindslight 11y ago
> I still think those who embrace FOSS now will be at a huge advantage as time progresses and the nanny mentality of companies such as Apple and Microsoft becomes more prevalent I'm not so sure about that. Apple is doing this to gain favor with their customers, who want to feel safe in an insular bubble. I had long thought that Free would win out economically, when centralized stores were forced to ban torrent clients and the like, but unfortunately the zeitgeist has even shifted to pay streaming apps. This is the real damage that centralization causes - the culture gets permanently warped from internalizing good-enough solutions. Then again we've had decades of receive-only broadcast media conditioning people into thinking centralization is the natural way of things, so maybe it's just going to take that much longer to break it up. Still, I feel that this current decentralization swing might be our last chance to correctly distribute power, besides the otherwise inevitable societal collapse.

skc 11y ago

Their platform, their rules. Simple as that.

dmschulman 11y ago

It'll be great to read the headline "Apple Brings Back American Civil War Games to the App Store" once they realize what a boneheaded move this was.

paulhauggis 11y ago

Political correctness has gone way too far in this country. When the Boston Bomber was on trial, there was a point made that his actions, because it was in the name of Islam, in no way reflects the actions of the entire religion or culture. Yet in South Carolina, the actions of one crazy person somehow now reflects on the entire culture and we need to remove the confederate flag. I don't see Amazon and Ebay removing anything related to Islam and we have had way more deaths related to crazies in that religion than with the Confederate flag. I also find it interesting that many people in government worked extremely fast to get the flag removed. I wished they could work this fast when it comes to actual important issues.

yequalsx 11y ago
From Mississippi's Declaration of Secession: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. " The Confederate flag represents the desire to maintain slavery and oppression. The Confederate flag represents a the desire by white Southerners to maintain dominance of another race. Over 600,000 people died in the U.S. Civil War as a result of what the Confederate flag represents. No where near this many Americans have died at the hands of 'crazies in that religion (Islam)'. Removing the Confederate flag and what it represents is an actually important issue to many. Especially those of that race of people who alone can bear exposure to the tropical sun.
hackuser 11y ago
In HN and other forums, I notice a strong correlation between the amount of prejudice in a post, and the amount of anger and ignorance in it. There is no reason to tie these issues together. There are many problems in our country; to say one shouldn't be fixed because others persist is silly (and what you describe isn't a problem, but a benefit to our country). It's also very sad that someone would casually and ignorantly insult a religion with over one billion innocent people as members, including many Americans. It's not Muslims or Southern white conservatives that are the problem, it's the bigoted and hateful minorities in all groups -- think what a wonderful world it would be without their anger, discrimination and violence. > we have had way more deaths related to crazies in that religion than with the Confederate flag. That's not true: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-...

a3voices 11y ago

People are way too oversensitive. Reminds me of Muslims getting upset over cartoon drawings of their prophet.

adventured 11y ago
Non-stop outrage. It has become a fiesta of outrage porn. It's like an emotional drug addiction for some people, they can't get enough outrage. They'll invent it as needed. The media loves it to, it's great for ratings. So you have both sides feeding on a perpetually worsening cultural spiral.

gadders 11y ago

This is getting silly now. All for removing the flag from public buildings, but this is going too far. Can someone get Taylor Swift on the case please?

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

k-mcgrady 11y ago

I get the feeling a lot of people here don't understand how important and destructive symbols like this can be. As stupid as it sounds symbols like that can have a huge impact on society and free speech isn't always the solution. I don't know how corrosive this particular symbol is as I'm not from the states but in general it is completely understandable to me coming from a place where stuff like this is a huge deal with big impacts on society.

noarchy 11y ago
>free speech isn't always the solution >I'm not from the states There's a cultural difference that rears its head here. Free speech in the US seems to be nearly-absolute when compared to even its northern neighbour (Canada), which has some provisions for "hate speech". Europe, from what I can see, is even more interventionist. I'm not using this post to argue for or against either perspective, but only to show that people from outside the US bring a very different perspective to the table, and it is reflected in their laws.
- k-mcgrady 11y ago
  Very true. I don't like the idea of being so rigid though. It seems like Americans stick to the idea of things like free speech or right to bear arms (basically constitutional ideas) without considering the fact they may not be right or times have changed. It's almost a religious zealotry as evidenced by the quick down voting of my post. NB (to everyone not noarchy): Down down vote things you disagree with - down vote things that don't add to the conversation.
  - nsxwolf 11y ago
    You're cutting your own throat when you dismiss freedom of speech.
    - k-mcgrady 11y ago
      Apparently so. It's interesting to watch though. Both my posts, while perfectly reasonable opposite viewpoints are getting down voted a lot. HN feels like reddit when you touch a nerve on freedom of speech. Crowd mentality/emotion seems to take over even in a group that is usually very logical and rational.

fixxer 11y ago

So, they're in effect banning historical fiction? None of these games condone slavery, do they? I totally get and agree with removing the Confederate flag from state flags in the United States -- The confederacy failed. But, must we deny an important part of US history happened?

hackuser 11y ago

I think it's great that Confederate symbols are being removed from government and commercial situations, but somehow it's different for Apple; they have too much power over what their users see and read (though I suppose the users can access whatever websites they want). Mobile apps and games are a significant social medium, and should include political expression. As a weak analogy, though I'm glad various governments may get rid of the flag, I'd very strongly oppose the government banning private citizens from owning them. While what Apple says about privacy is admirable, end-user control is still a serious problem.

jordanpg 11y ago

All of the objections along legal and moral lines are missing the point. While those objections are valid in many cases, the point is that this flag is the symbol of the moment. A rough analogy is the way in which marriage equality has become a proxy for gay rights (whether this is accurate or not). If the flag is shamed out of the public zeitgeist, in the same way that the n-word or the c-word have been, then that is a symbolic victory for those on the side of civil rights. Whatever you think about the actual meaning or symbolism or historical context of the flag is beside the point. Arguments about the importance of "heritage" fall flat because symbols do not teach history; they simply stand in for particular narratives.

salgernon 11y ago

Are they pulling all references to actual confederate States flags, or the army flag of Robert E Lee which more closely resembles the "confederate flag" used in racist contexts today. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_Sta... It seems like the solid flag is now pretty much only used For shock value and racist advertisement, without the historical content. I liked what Dave Winer had to say about his experience with it: http://scripting.com/2015/06/22/theConfederateFlagIsAHateCrime.html http://scripting.com/2015/06/22/theConfederateFlagIsAHateCri...

tempodox 11y ago

What? Blast “the American Nation”, this is pure revisionism. Lying history out of existence because it's not hip at the moment. Apple's obsession with political-correctness-gone-wrong is unbelievable.

Shivetya 11y ago

So we are to assume they will remove Dukes of Hazard from iTunes to complete their kneejerk reaction to this issue? There are probably quite a few album covers with that flag or approximations of it, let alone TV shows and movies. American Civil War games are not racist nor is representing the Civil War or any other conflict in a game. What is next? Scrubbing history books of any offending flag or words?

ccvannorman 11y ago

Apple has proven, time and again, that it heavily favors censorship in the name of profits. The real issue we should be talking about is the de-facto monopoly Apple has because of their hardware device success (e.g. iPhone), and how and when this monopoly will be prevented from censoring the speech and content of millions of lives. Or do we expect monopolistic censorship to be the new norm of the future? Disgusting.

caryhartline 11y ago
Is it censorship in the name of profits when they make less money by taking apps off the App Store?
- slayed0 11y ago
  Short term vs. long term. The immediate short term loss (probably very small) is income from these apps. The long term gain is company image and being known as a company that "does the right thing". There are countless examples of Apple giving up short term profits to preserve this image, which they obviously believe is responsible for greater profits in the long term.

scelerat 11y ago

I'm all for honest public reevaluation of the symbols of the CSA, but this strikes me as a cheap (for Apple) PR move and not conducive to that discussion. If anything it will feed into the paranoid narratives advanced by those who truly believe in the symbolism of the Confederate battle flag, triggering the Streisand effect, or a close relative of it.

rak_112 11y ago

SJWs ruin every thing they touch.

GBond 11y ago

Apple App Store is a private market and thus can legally take down any content they deem. The risk is Apple come off as tone-deaf and with such an over-reaching move. But still that may be a calculated negative impact as Apple has always been image conscience. They don't want to be the next target for the social media #takeitdown mob.

kranner 11y ago

123 points in 2 hours and this is already on page 2 because the number of comments exceeds the number of upvotes? I would have missed this discussion if I hadn't checked HN in the last 2 hours. Is it time for HN to review whether the upvotes-vs-comments penalization-heuristic still makes sense? It's feeling a little ad hoc and brittle to me.

solveforall 11y ago

I understand that the Confederate flag evokes strong, negative reactions from black people, as it probably should. So it may be disturbing to see the flag while browsing the App Store, and this is something Apple justifiably would want to prevent, and they have the right to do so. But to ban the display of a Confederate flag within a Civil War game that you have intentionally downloaded seems ludicrous. Games like this seem quite educational and to strip them of historical accuracy for the sake of political correctness is a real shame. I feel this is another sign that we are headed towards a culture that does not tolerate anything that might offend anyone, an intolerance of intolerance.

MBCook 11y ago
Apple will change directions on this and fix the historical games and such that are taken down, they always do. It will probably be a non-issue within a week or two. This is just the quickest, laziest, and a relatively ham-fisted way to get rid of the actually problematic apps, so that's what they did. Sadly thats kinda status-quo for Apple dealing with this kind of stuff.

Wintamute 11y ago

If we censor history how do we learn from it as a society? By giving nazi, confederate or any other problematic symbology special status as something too terrible to even gaze upon we elevate it to something almost suprahuman, and we forget that these atrocities were perpetrated by humans for the most part just like us. It makes those dark times just that bit more likely to come to pass again. This is small minded, unethical and irresponsible of Apple.

hughw 11y ago

So many comments here, on this topic, are in the sense of "Oh great we're talking about a symbol, while not fixing the root causes like guns and racism". I have a sense that's a POV of West Coasters, simply unable to fathom the depth of this symbol and its importance to racists, anti-racists, and its presence permeating everyday life in the South. Removing this symbol is a traumatic step even for many people of good will. The symbol is everywhere, and usually is employed innocuously. So getting rid of the symbol, even where used innocuously, means that even the people who intend no harm by it, have come to be conscious of the pain it causes to black descendants of slaves, every day. It's a big step for the southern "middle".

nathan_long 11y ago

A lot of the debate here pits "users can decide what's acceptable" against "Apple can decide what to sell". The only reason these seem incompatible is that iPhone owners can only get apps from Apple. If you want both Apple and users to have freedom of choice, lock-in is the real enemy. (Side note: lock-in also goes hand-in-hand with DRM, which goes hand-in-hand with surveillance: if the user isn't allowed to see what code they're running, and the software company isn't allowed to disclose what the government made them do, then the user can't know how their device is bugged. Cory Doctorow explains nicely how fighting lock-in and DRM is good for political freedom, too: https://vimeo.com/123473929 https://vimeo.com/123473929)