10 ms·

How a keyboard changed what I look for in an editor

120 points by luu 11y ago

melling 11y ago
I'm surprised that there haven't been more keyboard projects on KickStarter, which has been a boon for hardware projects. A modern version of the DataHand would be cool. http://octopup.org/computer/datahand http://octopup.org/computer/datahand A controller like an AlphaGrip: http://www.alphagrips.com/ http://www.alphagrips.com/
- gkop 11y ago
  Funny you should ask - there's a kickstarter launching tomorrow for a pretty legit keyboard project: http://www.keyboard.io http://www.keyboard.io
  - Abundnce10 11y ago
    Looking forward to this. Do you have any videos contrasting Keyboardio vs. the tradition keyboard, or do I need to wait until the campaign goes live tomorrow?
    - gkop 11y ago
      No I haven't seen videos. Honestly I'm just impressed by the level of iteration from prototype to prototype that Jesse has blogged about extensively for some time, leading up to http://blog.fsck.com/2013/12/model-00.html http://blog.fsck.com/2013/12/model-00.html .
- tribe 11y ago
  There have been some attempts to re-create the datahand [1], but it seems that they have stalled. [1] https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41422.0 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41422.0
- fractallyte 11y ago
  The TextBlade (https://waytools.com/ https://waytools.com/) looks like a thoughtful redesign of the keyboard. Compact, efficient, and shipping very soon.
- technomancy 11y ago
  I created my own keyboard design (http://atreus.technomancy.us http://atreus.technomancy.us) and have had a number of people ask me why I haven't put it on Kickstarter. Ironically it's because the startup costs are so low, and gradually ramping up production makes a lot more sense to me than exploding onto with a huge bang that requires a lot of investment without knowing how the demand will hold up in the long-term.
zachrose 11y ago
When two programmers compare preferences, it usually seems like they've reached the same level of fluency by standing on completely different piles of input devices, editors/IDEs, languages, plugins, transpilers, etc. Arguments about the superiority of one part of their pile assume that the other person is in a position to need those things. "Textmate? CoffeeScript? But how would you ever navigate your 900-line files without Vim?"
erikb 11y ago
Huge fan of the conclusions. And many hackers do that already, spending hundreds of dollars for high quality key boards and mouses. But we certainly haven't reached the point were our tools are as professional as a pilot's.
wilkystyle 11y ago
Interesting article, but the author mentions exactly why I could never get into a location-specific setup like a keyboard and foot pedal; I shift locations far too often (I'm currently working remotely from a Starbucks at the moment). While maybe not going as far as becoming proficient in whatever setup could be considered the "lowest common denominator", I prefer to use a setup that is flexible across locations and environments. There's a lot of freedom in being able to move about between workstations and locations and still be fast and capable.
- gkop 11y ago
  A foot pedal is no less discreet and portable than an external mouse, and those are pretty widely used and accepted at coffee shops (it could even be argued that the external mouse consumes more valuable space than the foot pedal - the mouse requires lateral table space and elbow room, while the pedal is literally on the floor beneath your feet). Likewise I know developers that bring external keyboards like the Kinesis in their backpacks to wherever they want to hack. Edit: that being said, you're right that it adds up. I believe the author of the article also uses a vertical mouse. That's a lot of gear to haul to Starbucks!
  - pbreit 11y ago
    Most people use their notebook's trackpad when in Starbucks, etc., not a mouse.
    - gkop 11y ago
      Right, for example you rarely see younger, MacBook owners with the external mice. But when you find middle-aged folks with PC laptops, they are often using little travel mice.
      - codingdave 11y ago
        That has more to do with the usability of trackpads on Macbooks vs. PCs. It isn't an age thing. It might be a hipster thing.
hoggle 11y ago
I've been interested in Kinesis keyboards for a while now but am still undecided because the more I think about the whole problem of HCI from a programmer's perspective the more I question my own assumptions. I'm wondering if something far out like the Twiddler could really work for somebody living in a text editor with vim bindings most of the day. If anybody had to share their experience with it I would be very interested to hear it (e.g. experience working with your legs up). http://twiddler.tekgear.com http://twiddler.tekgear.com
- verisimilidude 11y ago
  Though I've never used the Twiddler, I did spend about a year using a different one-handed keyboard due to injury. It was a FrogPad. It's a fine device for typing out sentences, but perhaps not ideal as a code editor. I eventually set up a full-sized keyboard right next to the FrogPad because it just felt easier to hit certain keys and chords that way. There might be better one-handed keyboards out there for programming, but I'm a little sour on the whole idea. During this time, I also did some experimentation with voice recognition. It worked really well when coding in lisps. This was over ten years ago, and I'll bet this would work even better now. I also have experience with the Kinesis keyboards; I used the Freestyle—not the Advantage featured in the article—following my recovery for about six or seven years. Though it looks like a medical device, the ergonomics are excellent. The Kinesis is a better typing experience by about 1000x. I have since switched to the homemade Ergodox, but still recommend the Kinesis.
  - hoggle 11y ago
    Thank you very much for sharing that, I'll probably get a Kinesis (still would like to at least try the Twiddler - might make sense with VR etc).
jaimebuelta 11y ago
I have a Kinesis and I've give it a good go. My main problem with it is that, while typing is absolutely wonderful and comfortable very quickly, you should keep your hands in the proper position the whole time, or you can't do anything. For example, use a mouse and copy, or even just to use a mouse gets to you for the proper position. A typical use of c select with a mouse, copy, move the cursor and paste, is very weird. Also something like write something with a pen and move pages up and down. A regular keyboard allows you to move right and use your left hand for right keys (cursors, etc). With the Kinesis, this is uncomfortable. The pedal is also weird and needs a lot of adjustment. I used it for a while, and encourage to everyone around me if they want to give it a go, but I moved back to a more regular keyboard...
ninjakeyboard 11y ago
I also have a Kinesis Advantage. I use colemak keyboard layout as well so I've customized the layout a bit. Because capslock is backspace in colemak, I changed the backspace key to control. VI sucks with colemak so I eventually moved to using emacs. It works very well for me - your thumb is always on control.
Todd 11y ago
This is why I always loath buying a new laptop. The first thing I have to do is look at the keyboard layout. Where did these designers try to fit the cursor keys this time? Where did they try to innovate on space efficiency using those 'disposable' keys: Home/End/PgUp/PgDn/Ins/Del? I learned on an IBM compatible 101 (now 104) keyboard. I trained my hands against the 'correct' cursor management key layout: the inverted-T and the cluster above. It's not optimal, but neither is the saxophone. That said, you don't see too many saxophone designers changing the placement of the keys or inventing new fingerings. Not so for keyboards. Most of the innovation happens because of some industrial design requirement or some designer's whim (e.g., why do we still have this insert key here? Nobody uses it! Let's get rid of it and add a larger delete key). I'm not referring to the more interesting innovation happening on behalf of heavy keyboard users, like those mentioned in the article. It used to be somewhat difficult to find modern 101/104 keyboards. I thank the code gods often, now that we have such a rich ecosystem around conventional keyboard designs. I now have a problem where I look for an excuse to buy a new keyboard to try out for one of the spots that I program at frequently, so I can just move my laptop and plug in. My favorite so far is the Cooler Master QuickFire Tenkeyless.
- fit2rule 11y ago
  What I love doing - re-training myself to use a PC-101 keyboard after a week or some days using the rMBP on the road .. nothing funks up my flow more (in a good way) than going from the hotkeys of OSX to those of a moderately standard fvwm-based Linux desktop, and having a full keyboard switch-up to boot. I kind of think such small experiences are good for you, so I delight in it happening when it does .. However, it terrifies me to use my friends' Dell and Lenovo machines, the key placement is often perplexing. I somehow think the layout is intended to bond the user to the platform, though, and few companies apply that as succinctly than Apple.
  - Todd 11y ago
    Agreed. I often have to use my laptop keyboard, as I'm sure everyone else does. That does make it a luxurious experience to get back to my mechanical keyboard (and external monitors). I look forward to getting back to my cave. Good perspective.
jkot 11y ago
I find it better to eliminate Win key and remap Alt to Capslock.
tangled 11y ago
I used to have a Happy Hacker keyboard and write Java (and other languages) in a customize emacs environment. These days I use a regular mac keyboard (so I can easily transition between my macbook and desktop setups) and run IntelliJ. And I feel like I'm a whole lot faster writing production-quality code. There are definitely a few annoyances when using the IntelliJ emacs key binds, but this is more than compensated by being able to do things like automatically download and jump to referenced packages and having the IDE suggest code improvements ("I've noticed that you could be using the Java 8 lambda syntax here..." / "Do you want to remove these unused imports" / "This value may be undefined"). And now I can't write Java without IntelliJ, and I'm going to fail my next whiteboard interview ;)
- bd_at_rivenhill 11y ago
  I use a Happy Hacker keyboard in a customized emacs environment, but I'm pretty much Linux only, so no issues with transition between laptop and desktop, although I do have an older Thinkpad and the layout is slightly different, but not enough to screw me up. I cut my teeth on Sun Sparcs, and haven't found a layout that I like better. In fact, I actually have two keyboards; one for home and one for work, and the latter has a lot of "mileage" on it because it regularly travelled with me from New York to Hong Kong.
deleted 11y ago
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aidos 11y ago
Most Mac users on here are probably used to the US layout of keyboard. Check out the UK version for a mean bit of design. The left hand shift key barely exists and the return key is a remote sliver. I always buy the US keyboard when I get a new machine. http://i01.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v1/1853014535_2/Wholesale-5Pcs-X-UK-EU-Keyboard-Cover-Skin-Protector-For-MacBook-Pro-Air-13-15-17.jpg http://i01.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v1/1853014535_2/Wholesale-5P...
- Trufa 11y ago
  I've gotten so used to the Spanish ISO layout that I don't really need it on the actual physical keyboard, I think it is a very practical layout for programming. Specially considering all the braces: [] is done by Alt Gr and the two (consecutive) keys that come after the "p" {} is done by Alt Gr and the two (consecutive) keys that come after the "l" () is done by shift 8, 9 \|@#~ Are all done with Alt Gr and the º key, 1, 2, 3 and 4. Maybe it's just being used to it, but I find it extremely practical.
  - zokier 11y ago
    Considering that how awkward AltGr is to reach, I find it difficult to understand why that layout would be very practical (for programming), considering that all of those punctuation characters are available either directly or with shift on US layout.
    - Trufa 11y ago
      You reach it with your right thumb, the same way you reach for space only a little bit more to the right. You're then in a conformable position for reaching out to this keys I mention.
  - dagw 11y ago
    Funny. Despite being in Sweden I always try to get US keyboards just to avoid the whole AltGr thing for braces.
    - 11y ago
hippich 11y ago
that's funny, how every article mention using pinkie for modifier keys. I always used thumb for that :) in fact i just tried to keep an eye how i am using keyboard and i found i rarely using pinkie at all. This is on standard-ish full-size laptop and 104 desktop keyboards.
bdarnell 11y ago
I'm a big fan of the Kinesis keyboard. I use Emacs, and I was starting to have some RSI symptoms from the ctrl/meta key combinations when I discovered the Kinesis. Moving the modifier keys (except for shift) to the thumbs is a huge improvement. The arrow key layout is actually one thing I don't like about the default Kinesis configuration (the bottom row for the left hand is backquote, backslash, left arrow, right arrow, and for the right hand it's up arrow, down arrow, left bracket, right bracket). I remap these keys to put all the arrows on the right hand (in vi order).
- erlkonig 11y ago
  The arrows are weird and the less-than-normal function keys are suboptimal (and I've used these keyboards long enough to run into some very rare firmware quirks and odd choices made by the maker). However, since everything else is so AWESOME - the hand position, being able to do CTRL+ALT with one thumb while keeping all the fingers in normal position and being able to map the other two mod keys to ALT, META, and then CapsLock to Hyper (for window management only, in my case)... oooh, this keyboard rocks for most things, including coding and gaming (assuming the game supports changing your keybindings to optimal keys - WoW does, for example). I think I have four of them, and my girlfriend prefers hers to normal keyboards. They've totally eliminated my incipient RSI. (rave, rave, rave). However, I do wish they'd fix the little issues that remain in some future board, so I don't have to keep musing over whether to buy a Maltron to compare.
Trufa 11y ago
Seriously, the thought about foot pedals had never crossed my mind, AT ALL, even after so many years of reading tech news, it's a completely new concept. Disregarding the practicality or the actual use, I think it is a very interesting concept and possibility that could be explored.
- robotresearcher 11y ago
  Explored again. The Mother of All Demos used footpedals and a chorded keyboard, for example. Versions of these have been commercially available ever since. They near really caught on.
- namanbharadwaj 11y ago
  There was a submission here a few years ago about building a "Vim clutch." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4141410 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4141410
- Retra 11y ago
  Instead of petals, they should make a small clip that attaches to the end of your shoe.
- casion 11y ago
  Uh, it's not a new concept. I had foot switches for typing back in the late 80s. I knew quite a few people in the 90s that were big on the concept too. It was a bit of a fad when the first round of ergonomic keyboards started becoming popular. For a non-anecdotal perspective, emacs users have been doing this for quite a while http://emacswiki.org/emacs/FootSwitches http://emacswiki.org/emacs/FootSwitches. go ahead and search for foot switches as well. They all look old and dated don't they? There's a reason for that. It's not talked about much because it's difficult to learn, non-portable and the need for foot switches is mitigated by proper technique when typing.
  - Trufa 11y ago
    Yes, I was just surprised that I didn't ever hear about it. It's not that it's something new, it's clearly not :)
wz1000 11y ago
I hit the left Control key with the edge of my palm, and use my thumb to hit Alt. Those are the only modifier keys I use regularly, other than Shift(which I can comfortably hit with my pinkies). This practice along with evil-mode and Vimperator means I barely have to move my fingers of the home row while operating my computer.
- christianmann 11y ago
  I used to do that, until I swapped CapsLock and Ctrl.
- to3m 11y ago
  I use the knuckle of my little finger: http://quadruple-a.com/keys/ctrl.jpg http://quadruple-a.com/keys/ctrl.jpg I've been using emacs for 9 years like that without a problem. I didn't realise you were supposed to swap your Caps Lock and Ctrl keys, so I never did. (And now I know you're supposed to, I just ignore it the advice. I don't think it's especially good advice, though, as always, if it works for you, feel free to heed it.)
tormeh 11y ago
Is typing really such a big issue for programmers? I don't know about everyone else, but typing is perhaps 0.5-1% of my programming time. Is this different for other people?
- codingdave 11y ago
  Like everything else in life, everyone has their own style. I'm with you - typing is not an area that I worry about efficiency. I whiteboard high level designs, think things out in my head, go for a walk and think out the code, and finally sit down and type it out in a fairly short time. Later, when updating and debugging, navigating via keyboard gets more important, but still not a critical path for me. But I do know other people who really do just type immediately when they start to code. They use the keyboard and screen as part of their thought process. For them, perhaps it makes a bigger difference.
- pacala 11y ago
  It's a sizable issue for me. I write every piece of code several times: once to get a sense of the problem space, once to prepare it for review, once to incorporate feedback review and once to adapt it once a new customer has as similar need, an tweaking my code for a couple hours saves him a couple of days. The technical ability to type fast is critical, thus having good tools is critical. Several areas: typing comfort, code search, autocomplete, code refactoring, plus high signal / noise language.
- mwfunk 11y ago
  I wonder about this every time the subject of editors comes up. There's a perception of efficiency for sure, but I wonder how much actual efficiency is gained in most cases. I just don't spend a lot of time on actual typing when programming, vs thinking about the code or testing or debugging or sifting through documentation. Plus I'm not on the same machine all the time, so lots of customization requires extra effort every time I have to jump on a freshly installed system.
  - farresito 11y ago
    A lot of people don't use vim because of its efficiency; they use it because it helps avoiding distraction and it's less tiring.
dperfect 11y ago
Honest question: do other software engineers write code so quickly that keyboard efficiencies really make a significant difference in productivity? I agree that familiarity with a keyboard layout is important, as is familiarity and confidence with a given editor/IDE (frequent switching between keyboards/editors does seem to slow me down a bit), but beyond that, are you really feeling held back by the speed at which you can move characters from your brain to the computer? My own experience shows that much more time is spent just thinking about the problem at hand. Even when it comes time to write, I rarely (if ever) feel like the keyboard input part is slowing me down.
- amttc 11y ago
  For me, at least, it's not so much a "raw LOC output" thing as it is a comfort thing. When I go back to IDEs or text editors that aren't Emacs, even though I can be productive there are lots of movements and tricks that I miss. It's less time spent text editing and more time spent looking, reading, and thinking. Rarely, I'll be in a situation where I have to do a series of complex edits. At my old job if we were crunching, some of the people that were junior to me would look over my shoulder and see me rushing through a ton of different files to make them. I think if you're familiar with a tool/setup it's easy to do this, but it's not totally necessary.
- brudgers 11y ago
  I can't speak for Software Engineers, but as an Emacs user I can say that for me, fluent keyboarding matters. As the fighter pilot tools analogy is a long standing favorite of mine from the AutoCad days, when I am in flow I experience Emacs as a stream of consciousness spojeen in keystrokes. It's very linguistic in a way mouse movements and clicks are not. One of the issues with mice us their default relative positioning. Digitizer tablets require less hand eye coordination and have a better chance of coming closer to touch typing. But it's still gorilla arms versus ten fingers. Lately, I've realized that even when I am having to look at the keyboard to get the right key combination in Emacs, it's no worse cognitively than hand-eyeing with a mouse and because my hands are still on the keyboard it's actually physically more efficient and actually creates less context switching cognitive impedence.
- 11y ago
brudgers 11y ago
Editor's remark: M-x replace-regexp ↩ foot pedal ↩ pedal or M-x replace-regexp ↩ foot pedal ↩ foot switch
madez 11y ago
I think there is not enough innovation happening in the space of HID's. Both the software and the hardware are limited. Sometimes you see innovative keyboards, but they are not revolutionary because they always think they have to provide the legacy 10x-keys design. And software always expects to receive those keys, which is a huge problem. In Steam Big Picture you can type with a gamepad if you go to the friends-chat-mode. Why is this limited to Steam Big Picture? This should be functionality provided by the system to be used by all applications. And applications should adapt the input layout and themselves depending on the HID that is being used. I wish it'd be possible to use text editors with a 3D mouse or pedals and a camera, without having to invest a huge amount of time to make it work.
- ralfd 11y ago
  Hm, I searched for the keyboard and a review on Anandtech came up. I am linking to the typing test benchmarks: http://www.anandtech.com/show/7125/kinesis-advantage-review-longterm-evaluation/4 http://www.anandtech.com/show/7125/kinesis-advantage-review-... In Typing tests (granted Aesop's Fables, not programming) there isn't really that much difference. Even compared to a Laptop keyboard. In 10-key typing (entering numbers) the Kinesis Advantage is really bad.
- ralfd 11y ago
  Hm, I searched for the keyboard and a review on Anandtech came up. I am linking to the typing test benchmarks: http://www.anandtech.com/show/7125/kinesis-advantage-review-longterm-evaluation/4 http://www.anandtech.com/show/7125/kinesis-advantage-review-... In Typing tests (granted Aesop's Fables, not programming) there isn't really that much difference. Even compared to a Laptop keyboard. In 10-key typing (entering numbers) the Kinesis Advantage is really bad.
z3t4 11y ago
Startup idea: We have a lot of dexterous muscles in the face. The keyboard could probably be replaced with a face sensor. I would love to work from the couch, only using my face.
- __z 11y ago
  That is what Stephan Hawking does. http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-computer.html http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-computer.html "My main interface to the computer is through a program called EZ Keys, written by Words Plus Inc. This provides a software keyboard on the screen. A cursor automatically scans across this keyboard by row or by column. I can select a character by moving my cheek to stop the cursor. My cheek movement is detected by an infrared switch that is mounted on my spectacles. This switch is my only interface with the computer. EZ Keys includes a word prediction algorithm, so I usually only have to type the first couple of characters before I can select the whole word."
  - z3t4 11y ago
    That was some quality procrastination ... I understand that he basically have two switches, giving him a total of four combinations, witch is a bit crude. The face have twenty muscles, Hawking probably can't move all of them, but for a normal person that would mean around one million binary combinations. Or 10^20 combinations if each muscle contraction was measured on a scale 1-10. Until such a product is released you could start practicing your facial muscles by doing waves with your eyebrows and moving your ears and nose wings etc.
mkagenius 11y ago
I would love a keyboard that lets my hand move around freely instead of lying awkwardly flat on the desk. Also, I would like to code while lying on the bed, a keyboard I can wear like gloves would be great. If not, a keyboard in the shape of /\ lying on desk would be a much better design.
- kevincrane 11y ago
  Something like this matches up with your last desire. http://www.thehumansolution.com/kinesis-freestyle.html http://www.thehumansolution.com/kinesis-freestyle.html
Sanddancer 11y ago
Right now, I'm using that keyboard's less wealthy sibling, the kinesis freestyle. I've found that it's a lot more flexible, as I can stop, do other things, like use a drawing tablet or mouse, without the needing to put my hands in the bowls like i would with the advantage. Also, I have smaller than average hands, so I get the feeling that the advantage would not be as useful for me. Now, what I'd really like to see is keyboards made with different key sizes. A 3/4 size keyboard that has proper mechanical switches would be very, very nice indeed. Hell, I actually like 15" laptops with full keyboards because that tends to mean that they've shrunk each key to fit, and it gets to right about the sweet spot in size for me.
- hellbanner 11y ago
  I love the freestyle. First keyboard I've used without hand pain. I recommend rolling a t-shirt or putting a foam pad below your wrists to prevent strain.
  - Sanddancer 11y ago
    I got the accessory kit with the wrist rests and slanting mechanism at the same time as the keyboard, so that part's not an issue. I got mine before I've started having wrist pain as a preventative measure. I'm 35 with weird genetic conditions regarding my joints, I don't need to exacerbate things. I think the other piece of the puzzle is that a lot of people don't properly adjust their chair and/or monitor for good ergonomics either. Eye level with a monitor should be right about at the top of the screen. It takes a tiny bit of getting used to at first, but then you really start noticing how much less neck strain you have.
    - hellbanner 11y ago
      Yup! I've been trying out a standing desk about a quarter of the time and that's been helpful too.
nhumrich 11y ago
I like this article, but what about the design of keyboard/mouse integration? There are still a lot of things you have to use a mouse for everyday. I feel like IBM hit a home run with the trackpoint, yet somehow it never hit mainstream. I would pay a lot of money for an ergonomic keyboard with a trackpoint. Microsoft sculpt or 4000 with trackpoint would be awesome. Just replace the stupid scrolly thing with a trackpoint.
lolive 11y ago
The pedal sounds appealing. But the lack of portability of all these hardware will not convince me. I still stick to the unbeatable keyboard hack I described some days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9605791 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9605791 (i.e arrows, return, pgup/pgdn, delete/backspace available at the middle of the keyboard) Another feature that is quite interesting if you code with IntelliJ or Eclipse is the "Quick Access" key. Ctrl+3 on Eclipse (hint: remap this to a more convenient key NOW!) or Ctrl+Shift+A on IntelliJ (same hint applies), and all you commands can be accessed by quick typing. No need to go for Ctrl, Alt or any key combination. With all this, any keyboard is efficient.
mstechfreak2 11y ago
Btw, where did you learn to touch type? I used http://www.typingstudy.com http://www.typingstudy.com but is it the best option?

120 points by luu 11y ago

I'm surprised that there haven't been more keyboard projects on KickStarter, which has been a boon for hardware projects. A modern version of the DataHand would be cool. http://octopup.org/computer/datahand http://octopup.org/computer/datahand A controller like an AlphaGrip: http://www.alphagrips.com/ http://www.alphagrips.com/

gkop 11y ago
Funny you should ask - there's a kickstarter launching tomorrow for a pretty legit keyboard project: http://www.keyboard.io http://www.keyboard.io
- Abundnce10 11y ago
  Looking forward to this. Do you have any videos contrasting Keyboardio vs. the tradition keyboard, or do I need to wait until the campaign goes live tomorrow?
  - gkop 11y ago
    No I haven't seen videos. Honestly I'm just impressed by the level of iteration from prototype to prototype that Jesse has blogged about extensively for some time, leading up to http://blog.fsck.com/2013/12/model-00.html http://blog.fsck.com/2013/12/model-00.html .
tribe 11y ago
There have been some attempts to re-create the datahand [1], but it seems that they have stalled. [1] https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41422.0 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41422.0
fractallyte 11y ago
The TextBlade (https://waytools.com/ https://waytools.com/) looks like a thoughtful redesign of the keyboard. Compact, efficient, and shipping very soon.
technomancy 11y ago
I created my own keyboard design (http://atreus.technomancy.us http://atreus.technomancy.us) and have had a number of people ask me why I haven't put it on Kickstarter. Ironically it's because the startup costs are so low, and gradually ramping up production makes a lot more sense to me than exploding onto with a huge bang that requires a lot of investment without knowing how the demand will hold up in the long-term.

zachrose 11y ago

When two programmers compare preferences, it usually seems like they've reached the same level of fluency by standing on completely different piles of input devices, editors/IDEs, languages, plugins, transpilers, etc. Arguments about the superiority of one part of their pile assume that the other person is in a position to need those things. "Textmate? CoffeeScript? But how would you ever navigate your 900-line files without Vim?"

erikb 11y ago

Huge fan of the conclusions. And many hackers do that already, spending hundreds of dollars for high quality key boards and mouses. But we certainly haven't reached the point were our tools are as professional as a pilot's.

wilkystyle 11y ago

Interesting article, but the author mentions exactly why I could never get into a location-specific setup like a keyboard and foot pedal; I shift locations far too often (I'm currently working remotely from a Starbucks at the moment). While maybe not going as far as becoming proficient in whatever setup could be considered the "lowest common denominator", I prefer to use a setup that is flexible across locations and environments. There's a lot of freedom in being able to move about between workstations and locations and still be fast and capable.

gkop 11y ago
A foot pedal is no less discreet and portable than an external mouse, and those are pretty widely used and accepted at coffee shops (it could even be argued that the external mouse consumes more valuable space than the foot pedal - the mouse requires lateral table space and elbow room, while the pedal is literally on the floor beneath your feet). Likewise I know developers that bring external keyboards like the Kinesis in their backpacks to wherever they want to hack. Edit: that being said, you're right that it adds up. I believe the author of the article also uses a vertical mouse. That's a lot of gear to haul to Starbucks!
- pbreit 11y ago
  Most people use their notebook's trackpad when in Starbucks, etc., not a mouse.
  - gkop 11y ago
    Right, for example you rarely see younger, MacBook owners with the external mice. But when you find middle-aged folks with PC laptops, they are often using little travel mice.
    - codingdave 11y ago
      That has more to do with the usability of trackpads on Macbooks vs. PCs. It isn't an age thing. It might be a hipster thing.

hoggle 11y ago

I've been interested in Kinesis keyboards for a while now but am still undecided because the more I think about the whole problem of HCI from a programmer's perspective the more I question my own assumptions. I'm wondering if something far out like the Twiddler could really work for somebody living in a text editor with vim bindings most of the day. If anybody had to share their experience with it I would be very interested to hear it (e.g. experience working with your legs up). http://twiddler.tekgear.com http://twiddler.tekgear.com

verisimilidude 11y ago
Though I've never used the Twiddler, I did spend about a year using a different one-handed keyboard due to injury. It was a FrogPad. It's a fine device for typing out sentences, but perhaps not ideal as a code editor. I eventually set up a full-sized keyboard right next to the FrogPad because it just felt easier to hit certain keys and chords that way. There might be better one-handed keyboards out there for programming, but I'm a little sour on the whole idea. During this time, I also did some experimentation with voice recognition. It worked really well when coding in lisps. This was over ten years ago, and I'll bet this would work even better now. I also have experience with the Kinesis keyboards; I used the Freestyle—not the Advantage featured in the article—following my recovery for about six or seven years. Though it looks like a medical device, the ergonomics are excellent. The Kinesis is a better typing experience by about 1000x. I have since switched to the homemade Ergodox, but still recommend the Kinesis.
- hoggle 11y ago
  Thank you very much for sharing that, I'll probably get a Kinesis (still would like to at least try the Twiddler - might make sense with VR etc).

jaimebuelta 11y ago

I have a Kinesis and I've give it a good go. My main problem with it is that, while typing is absolutely wonderful and comfortable very quickly, you should keep your hands in the proper position the whole time, or you can't do anything. For example, use a mouse and copy, or even just to use a mouse gets to you for the proper position. A typical use of c select with a mouse, copy, move the cursor and paste, is very weird. Also something like write something with a pen and move pages up and down. A regular keyboard allows you to move right and use your left hand for right keys (cursors, etc). With the Kinesis, this is uncomfortable. The pedal is also weird and needs a lot of adjustment. I used it for a while, and encourage to everyone around me if they want to give it a go, but I moved back to a more regular keyboard...

ninjakeyboard 11y ago

I also have a Kinesis Advantage. I use colemak keyboard layout as well so I've customized the layout a bit. Because capslock is backspace in colemak, I changed the backspace key to control. VI sucks with colemak so I eventually moved to using emacs. It works very well for me - your thumb is always on control.

Todd 11y ago

This is why I always loath buying a new laptop. The first thing I have to do is look at the keyboard layout. Where did these designers try to fit the cursor keys this time? Where did they try to innovate on space efficiency using those 'disposable' keys: Home/End/PgUp/PgDn/Ins/Del? I learned on an IBM compatible 101 (now 104) keyboard. I trained my hands against the 'correct' cursor management key layout: the inverted-T and the cluster above. It's not optimal, but neither is the saxophone. That said, you don't see too many saxophone designers changing the placement of the keys or inventing new fingerings. Not so for keyboards. Most of the innovation happens because of some industrial design requirement or some designer's whim (e.g., why do we still have this insert key here? Nobody uses it! Let's get rid of it and add a larger delete key). I'm not referring to the more interesting innovation happening on behalf of heavy keyboard users, like those mentioned in the article. It used to be somewhat difficult to find modern 101/104 keyboards. I thank the code gods often, now that we have such a rich ecosystem around conventional keyboard designs. I now have a problem where I look for an excuse to buy a new keyboard to try out for one of the spots that I program at frequently, so I can just move my laptop and plug in. My favorite so far is the Cooler Master QuickFire Tenkeyless.

fit2rule 11y ago
What I love doing - re-training myself to use a PC-101 keyboard after a week or some days using the rMBP on the road .. nothing funks up my flow more (in a good way) than going from the hotkeys of OSX to those of a moderately standard fvwm-based Linux desktop, and having a full keyboard switch-up to boot. I kind of think such small experiences are good for you, so I delight in it happening when it does .. However, it terrifies me to use my friends' Dell and Lenovo machines, the key placement is often perplexing. I somehow think the layout is intended to bond the user to the platform, though, and few companies apply that as succinctly than Apple.
- Todd 11y ago
  Agreed. I often have to use my laptop keyboard, as I'm sure everyone else does. That does make it a luxurious experience to get back to my mechanical keyboard (and external monitors). I look forward to getting back to my cave. Good perspective.

jkot 11y ago

I find it better to eliminate Win key and remap Alt to Capslock.

tangled 11y ago

I used to have a Happy Hacker keyboard and write Java (and other languages) in a customize emacs environment. These days I use a regular mac keyboard (so I can easily transition between my macbook and desktop setups) and run IntelliJ. And I feel like I'm a whole lot faster writing production-quality code. There are definitely a few annoyances when using the IntelliJ emacs key binds, but this is more than compensated by being able to do things like automatically download and jump to referenced packages and having the IDE suggest code improvements ("I've noticed that you could be using the Java 8 lambda syntax here..." / "Do you want to remove these unused imports" / "This value may be undefined"). And now I can't write Java without IntelliJ, and I'm going to fail my next whiteboard interview ;)

bd_at_rivenhill 11y ago
I use a Happy Hacker keyboard in a customized emacs environment, but I'm pretty much Linux only, so no issues with transition between laptop and desktop, although I do have an older Thinkpad and the layout is slightly different, but not enough to screw me up. I cut my teeth on Sun Sparcs, and haven't found a layout that I like better. In fact, I actually have two keyboards; one for home and one for work, and the latter has a lot of "mileage" on it because it regularly travelled with me from New York to Hong Kong.

deleted 11y ago

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aidos 11y ago

Most Mac users on here are probably used to the US layout of keyboard. Check out the UK version for a mean bit of design. The left hand shift key barely exists and the return key is a remote sliver. I always buy the US keyboard when I get a new machine. http://i01.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v1/1853014535_2/Wholesale-5Pcs-X-UK-EU-Keyboard-Cover-Skin-Protector-For-MacBook-Pro-Air-13-15-17.jpg http://i01.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v1/1853014535_2/Wholesale-5P...

Trufa 11y ago
I've gotten so used to the Spanish ISO layout that I don't really need it on the actual physical keyboard, I think it is a very practical layout for programming. Specially considering all the braces: [] is done by Alt Gr and the two (consecutive) keys that come after the "p" {} is done by Alt Gr and the two (consecutive) keys that come after the "l" () is done by shift 8, 9 \|@#~ Are all done with Alt Gr and the º key, 1, 2, 3 and 4. Maybe it's just being used to it, but I find it extremely practical.
- zokier 11y ago
  Considering that how awkward AltGr is to reach, I find it difficult to understand why that layout would be very practical (for programming), considering that all of those punctuation characters are available either directly or with shift on US layout.
  - Trufa 11y ago
    You reach it with your right thumb, the same way you reach for space only a little bit more to the right. You're then in a conformable position for reaching out to this keys I mention.
- dagw 11y ago
  Funny. Despite being in Sweden I always try to get US keyboards just to avoid the whole AltGr thing for braces.
  - 11y ago

hippich 11y ago

that's funny, how every article mention using pinkie for modifier keys. I always used thumb for that :) in fact i just tried to keep an eye how i am using keyboard and i found i rarely using pinkie at all. This is on standard-ish full-size laptop and 104 desktop keyboards.

bdarnell 11y ago

I'm a big fan of the Kinesis keyboard. I use Emacs, and I was starting to have some RSI symptoms from the ctrl/meta key combinations when I discovered the Kinesis. Moving the modifier keys (except for shift) to the thumbs is a huge improvement. The arrow key layout is actually one thing I don't like about the default Kinesis configuration (the bottom row for the left hand is backquote, backslash, left arrow, right arrow, and for the right hand it's up arrow, down arrow, left bracket, right bracket). I remap these keys to put all the arrows on the right hand (in vi order).

erlkonig 11y ago
The arrows are weird and the less-than-normal function keys are suboptimal (and I've used these keyboards long enough to run into some very rare firmware quirks and odd choices made by the maker). However, since everything else is so AWESOME - the hand position, being able to do CTRL+ALT with one thumb while keeping all the fingers in normal position and being able to map the other two mod keys to ALT, META, and then CapsLock to Hyper (for window management only, in my case)... oooh, this keyboard rocks for most things, including coding and gaming (assuming the game supports changing your keybindings to optimal keys - WoW does, for example). I think I have four of them, and my girlfriend prefers hers to normal keyboards. They've totally eliminated my incipient RSI. (rave, rave, rave). However, I do wish they'd fix the little issues that remain in some future board, so I don't have to keep musing over whether to buy a Maltron to compare.

Trufa 11y ago

Seriously, the thought about foot pedals had never crossed my mind, AT ALL, even after so many years of reading tech news, it's a completely new concept. Disregarding the practicality or the actual use, I think it is a very interesting concept and possibility that could be explored.

robotresearcher 11y ago
Explored again. The Mother of All Demos used footpedals and a chorded keyboard, for example. Versions of these have been commercially available ever since. They near really caught on.
namanbharadwaj 11y ago
There was a submission here a few years ago about building a "Vim clutch." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4141410 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4141410
Retra 11y ago
Instead of petals, they should make a small clip that attaches to the end of your shoe.
casion 11y ago
Uh, it's not a new concept. I had foot switches for typing back in the late 80s. I knew quite a few people in the 90s that were big on the concept too. It was a bit of a fad when the first round of ergonomic keyboards started becoming popular. For a non-anecdotal perspective, emacs users have been doing this for quite a while http://emacswiki.org/emacs/FootSwitches http://emacswiki.org/emacs/FootSwitches. go ahead and search for foot switches as well. They all look old and dated don't they? There's a reason for that. It's not talked about much because it's difficult to learn, non-portable and the need for foot switches is mitigated by proper technique when typing.
- Trufa 11y ago
  Yes, I was just surprised that I didn't ever hear about it. It's not that it's something new, it's clearly not :)

wz1000 11y ago

I hit the left Control key with the edge of my palm, and use my thumb to hit Alt. Those are the only modifier keys I use regularly, other than Shift(which I can comfortably hit with my pinkies). This practice along with evil-mode and Vimperator means I barely have to move my fingers of the home row while operating my computer.

christianmann 11y ago
I used to do that, until I swapped CapsLock and Ctrl.
to3m 11y ago
I use the knuckle of my little finger: http://quadruple-a.com/keys/ctrl.jpg http://quadruple-a.com/keys/ctrl.jpg I've been using emacs for 9 years like that without a problem. I didn't realise you were supposed to swap your Caps Lock and Ctrl keys, so I never did. (And now I know you're supposed to, I just ignore it the advice. I don't think it's especially good advice, though, as always, if it works for you, feel free to heed it.)

tormeh 11y ago

Is typing really such a big issue for programmers? I don't know about everyone else, but typing is perhaps 0.5-1% of my programming time. Is this different for other people?

codingdave 11y ago
Like everything else in life, everyone has their own style. I'm with you - typing is not an area that I worry about efficiency. I whiteboard high level designs, think things out in my head, go for a walk and think out the code, and finally sit down and type it out in a fairly short time. Later, when updating and debugging, navigating via keyboard gets more important, but still not a critical path for me. But I do know other people who really do just type immediately when they start to code. They use the keyboard and screen as part of their thought process. For them, perhaps it makes a bigger difference.
pacala 11y ago
It's a sizable issue for me. I write every piece of code several times: once to get a sense of the problem space, once to prepare it for review, once to incorporate feedback review and once to adapt it once a new customer has as similar need, an tweaking my code for a couple hours saves him a couple of days. The technical ability to type fast is critical, thus having good tools is critical. Several areas: typing comfort, code search, autocomplete, code refactoring, plus high signal / noise language.
mwfunk 11y ago
I wonder about this every time the subject of editors comes up. There's a perception of efficiency for sure, but I wonder how much actual efficiency is gained in most cases. I just don't spend a lot of time on actual typing when programming, vs thinking about the code or testing or debugging or sifting through documentation. Plus I'm not on the same machine all the time, so lots of customization requires extra effort every time I have to jump on a freshly installed system.
- farresito 11y ago
  A lot of people don't use vim because of its efficiency; they use it because it helps avoiding distraction and it's less tiring.

dperfect 11y ago

Honest question: do other software engineers write code so quickly that keyboard efficiencies really make a significant difference in productivity? I agree that familiarity with a keyboard layout is important, as is familiarity and confidence with a given editor/IDE (frequent switching between keyboards/editors does seem to slow me down a bit), but beyond that, are you really feeling held back by the speed at which you can move characters from your brain to the computer? My own experience shows that much more time is spent just thinking about the problem at hand. Even when it comes time to write, I rarely (if ever) feel like the keyboard input part is slowing me down.

amttc 11y ago
For me, at least, it's not so much a "raw LOC output" thing as it is a comfort thing. When I go back to IDEs or text editors that aren't Emacs, even though I can be productive there are lots of movements and tricks that I miss. It's less time spent text editing and more time spent looking, reading, and thinking. Rarely, I'll be in a situation where I have to do a series of complex edits. At my old job if we were crunching, some of the people that were junior to me would look over my shoulder and see me rushing through a ton of different files to make them. I think if you're familiar with a tool/setup it's easy to do this, but it's not totally necessary.
brudgers 11y ago
I can't speak for Software Engineers, but as an Emacs user I can say that for me, fluent keyboarding matters. As the fighter pilot tools analogy is a long standing favorite of mine from the AutoCad days, when I am in flow I experience Emacs as a stream of consciousness spojeen in keystrokes. It's very linguistic in a way mouse movements and clicks are not. One of the issues with mice us their default relative positioning. Digitizer tablets require less hand eye coordination and have a better chance of coming closer to touch typing. But it's still gorilla arms versus ten fingers. Lately, I've realized that even when I am having to look at the keyboard to get the right key combination in Emacs, it's no worse cognitively than hand-eyeing with a mouse and because my hands are still on the keyboard it's actually physically more efficient and actually creates less context switching cognitive impedence.
11y ago

brudgers 11y ago

Editor's remark: M-x replace-regexp ↩ foot pedal ↩ pedal or M-x replace-regexp ↩ foot pedal ↩ foot switch

madez 11y ago

I think there is not enough innovation happening in the space of HID's. Both the software and the hardware are limited. Sometimes you see innovative keyboards, but they are not revolutionary because they always think they have to provide the legacy 10x-keys design. And software always expects to receive those keys, which is a huge problem. In Steam Big Picture you can type with a gamepad if you go to the friends-chat-mode. Why is this limited to Steam Big Picture? This should be functionality provided by the system to be used by all applications. And applications should adapt the input layout and themselves depending on the HID that is being used. I wish it'd be possible to use text editors with a 3D mouse or pedals and a camera, without having to invest a huge amount of time to make it work.

ralfd 11y ago
Hm, I searched for the keyboard and a review on Anandtech came up. I am linking to the typing test benchmarks: http://www.anandtech.com/show/7125/kinesis-advantage-review-longterm-evaluation/4 http://www.anandtech.com/show/7125/kinesis-advantage-review-... In Typing tests (granted Aesop's Fables, not programming) there isn't really that much difference. Even compared to a Laptop keyboard. In 10-key typing (entering numbers) the Kinesis Advantage is really bad.
ralfd 11y ago
Hm, I searched for the keyboard and a review on Anandtech came up. I am linking to the typing test benchmarks: http://www.anandtech.com/show/7125/kinesis-advantage-review-longterm-evaluation/4 http://www.anandtech.com/show/7125/kinesis-advantage-review-... In Typing tests (granted Aesop's Fables, not programming) there isn't really that much difference. Even compared to a Laptop keyboard. In 10-key typing (entering numbers) the Kinesis Advantage is really bad.

z3t4 11y ago

Startup idea: We have a lot of dexterous muscles in the face. The keyboard could probably be replaced with a face sensor. I would love to work from the couch, only using my face.

__z 11y ago
That is what Stephan Hawking does. http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-computer.html http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-computer.html "My main interface to the computer is through a program called EZ Keys, written by Words Plus Inc. This provides a software keyboard on the screen. A cursor automatically scans across this keyboard by row or by column. I can select a character by moving my cheek to stop the cursor. My cheek movement is detected by an infrared switch that is mounted on my spectacles. This switch is my only interface with the computer. EZ Keys includes a word prediction algorithm, so I usually only have to type the first couple of characters before I can select the whole word."
- z3t4 11y ago
  That was some quality procrastination ... I understand that he basically have two switches, giving him a total of four combinations, witch is a bit crude. The face have twenty muscles, Hawking probably can't move all of them, but for a normal person that would mean around one million binary combinations. Or 10^20 combinations if each muscle contraction was measured on a scale 1-10. Until such a product is released you could start practicing your facial muscles by doing waves with your eyebrows and moving your ears and nose wings etc.

mkagenius 11y ago

I would love a keyboard that lets my hand move around freely instead of lying awkwardly flat on the desk. Also, I would like to code while lying on the bed, a keyboard I can wear like gloves would be great. If not, a keyboard in the shape of /\ lying on desk would be a much better design.

kevincrane 11y ago
Something like this matches up with your last desire. http://www.thehumansolution.com/kinesis-freestyle.html http://www.thehumansolution.com/kinesis-freestyle.html

Sanddancer 11y ago

Right now, I'm using that keyboard's less wealthy sibling, the kinesis freestyle. I've found that it's a lot more flexible, as I can stop, do other things, like use a drawing tablet or mouse, without the needing to put my hands in the bowls like i would with the advantage. Also, I have smaller than average hands, so I get the feeling that the advantage would not be as useful for me. Now, what I'd really like to see is keyboards made with different key sizes. A 3/4 size keyboard that has proper mechanical switches would be very, very nice indeed. Hell, I actually like 15" laptops with full keyboards because that tends to mean that they've shrunk each key to fit, and it gets to right about the sweet spot in size for me.

hellbanner 11y ago
I love the freestyle. First keyboard I've used without hand pain. I recommend rolling a t-shirt or putting a foam pad below your wrists to prevent strain.
- Sanddancer 11y ago
  I got the accessory kit with the wrist rests and slanting mechanism at the same time as the keyboard, so that part's not an issue. I got mine before I've started having wrist pain as a preventative measure. I'm 35 with weird genetic conditions regarding my joints, I don't need to exacerbate things. I think the other piece of the puzzle is that a lot of people don't properly adjust their chair and/or monitor for good ergonomics either. Eye level with a monitor should be right about at the top of the screen. It takes a tiny bit of getting used to at first, but then you really start noticing how much less neck strain you have.
  - hellbanner 11y ago
    Yup! I've been trying out a standing desk about a quarter of the time and that's been helpful too.

nhumrich 11y ago

I like this article, but what about the design of keyboard/mouse integration? There are still a lot of things you have to use a mouse for everyday. I feel like IBM hit a home run with the trackpoint, yet somehow it never hit mainstream. I would pay a lot of money for an ergonomic keyboard with a trackpoint. Microsoft sculpt or 4000 with trackpoint would be awesome. Just replace the stupid scrolly thing with a trackpoint.

lolive 11y ago

The pedal sounds appealing. But the lack of portability of all these hardware will not convince me. I still stick to the unbeatable keyboard hack I described some days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9605791 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9605791 (i.e arrows, return, pgup/pgdn, delete/backspace available at the middle of the keyboard) Another feature that is quite interesting if you code with IntelliJ or Eclipse is the "Quick Access" key. Ctrl+3 on Eclipse (hint: remap this to a more convenient key NOW!) or Ctrl+Shift+A on IntelliJ (same hint applies), and all you commands can be accessed by quick typing. No need to go for Ctrl, Alt or any key combination. With all this, any keyboard is efficient.

mstechfreak2 11y ago

Btw, where did you learn to touch type? I used http://www.typingstudy.com http://www.typingstudy.com but is it the best option?