10 ms·

Introducing the San Francisco system font

98 points by davidbarker 11y ago

inguinalhernia 11y ago
has someone patched it for Yosemite yet? https://github.com/dtinth/YosemiteSystemFontPatcher https://github.com/dtinth/YosemiteSystemFontPatcher
- tonyspiff 11y ago
  long time ago. https://github.com/supermarin/YosemiteSanFranciscoFont https://github.com/supermarin/YosemiteSanFranciscoFont
  - cmelbye 11y ago
    That's not the same font. It's San Francisco Compact, the Apple Watch font. El Capitan's font is different (and available for download on the linked page).
hyperbovine 11y ago
I find this font weirdly difficult to read. I'm on a rMBP.
- intsunny 11y ago
  I too am on a rMBP (13"). I also agree that the font is weirdly difficult. It seems to be on the thinner side, and in turn off-putting.
  - joshuapants 11y ago
    The lightest weight on the page does seem way too thin, but the heavier face above it looks great to me.
  - to3m 11y ago
    It looks to me too thin for an unhinted font. Its lines look like they're trying to be one pixel wide, and failing. Fonts can go much thinner when they match up with the pixel grid; as an example, here's 14pt Andale Mono on Windows 8 with antialiasing off: http://www.quadruple-a.com/tmp/AndaleMono.png http://www.quadruple-a.com/tmp/AndaleMono.png
- SG- 11y ago
  did you turn off font-smoothing? personally i prefer it and looks great on 10.11 DP with my 13" simulating 1440 x 900.
- TD-Linux 11y ago
  On a hidpi Thinkpad running Linux, it's certainly readable but I like the bold version better. The lowercase letter strokes seem to end in non-right-angles a lot, which bothers me a bit. Bonus picture of font rendering: https://d.maxfile.ro/amaflffqtz.png https://d.maxfile.ro/amaflffqtz.png Most importantly, the restrictions on the fonts: Standard font: A. Limited License. Subject to the terms of this License, you may use the Apple Font solely for designing or developing applications for Apple-branded products running on Apple’s iOS or OS X operating systems, as applicable. Compact font: A. Limited License. Subject to the terms of this License, you may use the Apple Font solely for purposes of design and development of applications for Apple Watch. They also include additional clauses requiring Developer Program membership and Apple-branded hardware.
  - cr__ 11y ago
    The font in that picture is Myriad Pro, I believe.
- brazzledazzle 11y ago
  I can't put my finger on why but it feels a little cramped.
keyle 11y ago
For an introduction, it's a bare one.
cschmidt 11y ago
I wonder how many HN readers are too young to remember the original San Francisco font on the original Mac. It was the "ransom note" font. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_%281984_typeface%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_%281984_typeface...
- jhugg 11y ago
  Ransom note?
  - function_seven 11y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ransom_note_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ransom_note_effect
    - robinson7d 11y ago
      Your parent likely knows what it means; the message is no longer clear but the post it was in reply to originally said "random note". Your parent was simply a suggested correction, which didn't hold up after the correction was made.
      - hrbrtglm 11y ago
        A diff button appearing for modified comments would be such a great feature ... :)
      - function_seven 11y ago
        Ah, thanks. I was confused by the confusion.
- scelerat 11y ago
  Not too young here; San Francisco was one of the original bitmapped 'city' fonts which shipped with the original Macintosh operating system, alongside Monaco, Chicago, Geneva, Los Angeles, Toronto, New York, Athens, Venice, London, and Cairo. http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=World_Class_Cities.txt http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=World_Class_Citie...
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
aaronbrethorst 11y ago
I've been using El Cap and iOS 9 (and watchOS 2.0) since Monday, and I'm really liking San Francisco. I feel like the keming could use a little tweaking in places, but—for the most part—it's a big improvement over Helvetica Neue for legibility. And it's also nice to feel like I'm no longer staring at Gap logos all day, every day.
- derefr 11y ago
  Haha, keming. [That's an M, whoever downvoted.] Turns out it's a subreddit! https://www.reddit.com/r/keming https://www.reddit.com/r/keming An on-topic example of keming, from said subreddit: http://i.imgur.com/jOZ58Vm.png http://i.imgur.com/jOZ58Vm.png Also, in searching for this, I just found a Google easter egg: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=kerning http://lmgtfy.com/?q=kerning (look at the search result body text.)
  - aaronbrethorst 11y ago
    I'm glad someone caught the joke :)
yawaramin 11y ago
Some wag on Twitter pointed out that it should have been called Francisco Sans.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
JonathonW 11y ago
I find it mildly amusing how the linked page appears to be set in Myriad, not San Francisco. Also, how in the world do you actually get to that page from the root of the Apple Developer site? It's not linked from the Resources page [1] (its parent in its URL), and it's also not to be found on the UI design resources page [2]. I'm wondering because I saw this font download (the new version of San Fransisco, not the Watch variant, which has been up for a while) referenced a couple times earlier this week, but never could find it myself until just now when it was linked. [1] https://developer.apple.com/resources/ https://developer.apple.com/resources/ [2] https://developer.apple.com/design/ https://developer.apple.com/design/
- calinet6 11y ago
  I was struck by this also. Why would you release a brand new font that you plan to spread widely and use in all your products, and set the announcement in a different typeface? Makes no sense.
  - jonhohle 11y ago
    It's not a font for body text. Just like you wouldn't set an article in Helvetica.
    - calinet6 11y ago
      You surely would, if it was appropriate. And if it is to be a system font, it will be used for body text as well. Not too different from Myriad in that context anyway.
  - Sephiroth87 11y ago
    The font is still in beta, it'll be officially released alongside OS X 10.11 and iOS 9
  - mortenjorck 11y ago
    This is just the age-old tension between marketing design standards and product design standards. Apple's marketing materials have all used Myriad Pro since the early 2000s (though Apple only recently got around to using a webfont on apple.com), and thus the announcement is produced according to those standards. San Francisco is a UI type family for use in products. Just as Apple has never preferred Lucida Grande or Helvetica for marketing (only using either on the web in the pre-webfont era), this announcement doesn't get set in San Francisco. If Apple has a webfont version of it at all, the only place it would get used is on icloud.com, which is an actual web-based product UI. All that said, this announcement could do with a bit more of the typeface on display than the paltry two letters seen here.
davidbarker 11y ago
There's also a video of the WWDC session, "Introducing the New System Fonts" https://developer.apple.com/videos/wwdc/2015/?id=804 https://developer.apple.com/videos/wwdc/2015/?id=804
Leszek 11y ago
So... what does it look like? The font on that page is Myriad, and I can't see link to a preview of the font itself.
- dmix 11y ago
  From wikipedia: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/San_Francisco_Display_SP.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/San_Fran... I like it personally. But I much prefer Google's new version of Roboto: https://camo.githubusercontent.com/3e191ddf621d46efd1fbfa919bc6a8175165f309/687474703a2f2f312e62702e626c6f6773706f742e636f6d2f2d694a31684e73585f4f5a412f553861724a6a50756235492f41414141414141414f67512f7443376573434a4b4c486b2f73313630302f7468655f6e65775f726f626f746f312e706e67 https://camo.githubusercontent.com/3e191ddf621d46efd1fbfa919...
  - jacobolus 11y ago
    Note that that’s the version from the watch, which has substantially different shapes (most notably is less rounded) and metrics than the version for phones / computers, and is not appropriate for the size of type shown in the Wikipedia diagram.
brentis 11y ago
Slow news day...
dmritard96 11y ago
It kinda stresses my head out to read. Its too tall perhaps?
prewett 11y ago
What was wrong with Helvetica-Neue? Or what is better about San Francisco? I was hoping the page would give some reasoning I could get behind.
- obstinate 11y ago
  Fashion and taste evolves, and not always for reasons that are easy to articulate, especially to the laity.
- LoSboccacc 11y ago
  I like the new font. You can fit quite more characters on a single line, while maintaining high readability. It also seems to have more weight and being clearer from distance, but that may also be my monitor tricking me.
- mproud 11y ago
  Helvetica Neue wasn’t designed specifically to be read at small sizes on digital screens. Apple’s new font is, as it has a noticeably larger x-height and tracks wider on narrower letters, meaning it’s much easier to read. Helvetica = more elegant San Francisco = more legible
kapowaz 11y ago
Interestingly they've built two different versions of the typeface: Compact (for watchOS) and UI (for OS X/iOS). Compact is far closer to DIN or Roboto (with flattened vertical strokes on glyphs like the uppercase C, D and G), whereas UI is far more rounded, and looks a lot like Helvetica for some glyphs. I was concerned based on what I'd seen of the typography of the Apple Watch that it'd be too cold and characterless (I really dislike Roboto on Android) to use across OS X and iOS, but by creating this separate UI variant they're able to make it feel like a gradual transition from Helvetica Neue. It's so similar, in fact, that I'd not be surprised if we end up seeing more font quizzes asking: ‘Arial or Helvetica …or San Francisco?’
andmarios 11y ago
I would like to see more companies follow Google's lead and release their high quality fonts under a free or open source license. I understand a type foundry not making their product available for free, but software behemoths like apple, google and microsoft can and should help make quality fonts available for everyone.
fit2rule 11y ago
This is a really good font. Is there an analog of this font for Android, anyone know? Because, if there is a font that is similar enough to this, on Android, then I'll be happy to use San Francisco on iOS, and the alternative on Android. But, if there isn't, I will avoid this font and try to find one which is platform-friendly. There is no way I'm keen on designing, at the Type level, exclusively for Apple platforms. That's a play in this 'freebie' that is extraordinarily offensive.

98 points by davidbarker 11y ago

has someone patched it for Yosemite yet? https://github.com/dtinth/YosemiteSystemFontPatcher https://github.com/dtinth/YosemiteSystemFontPatcher

tonyspiff 11y ago
long time ago. https://github.com/supermarin/YosemiteSanFranciscoFont https://github.com/supermarin/YosemiteSanFranciscoFont
- cmelbye 11y ago
  That's not the same font. It's San Francisco Compact, the Apple Watch font. El Capitan's font is different (and available for download on the linked page).

hyperbovine 11y ago

I find this font weirdly difficult to read. I'm on a rMBP.

intsunny 11y ago
I too am on a rMBP (13"). I also agree that the font is weirdly difficult. It seems to be on the thinner side, and in turn off-putting.
- joshuapants 11y ago
  The lightest weight on the page does seem way too thin, but the heavier face above it looks great to me.
- to3m 11y ago
  It looks to me too thin for an unhinted font. Its lines look like they're trying to be one pixel wide, and failing. Fonts can go much thinner when they match up with the pixel grid; as an example, here's 14pt Andale Mono on Windows 8 with antialiasing off: http://www.quadruple-a.com/tmp/AndaleMono.png http://www.quadruple-a.com/tmp/AndaleMono.png
SG- 11y ago
did you turn off font-smoothing? personally i prefer it and looks great on 10.11 DP with my 13" simulating 1440 x 900.
TD-Linux 11y ago
On a hidpi Thinkpad running Linux, it's certainly readable but I like the bold version better. The lowercase letter strokes seem to end in non-right-angles a lot, which bothers me a bit. Bonus picture of font rendering: https://d.maxfile.ro/amaflffqtz.png https://d.maxfile.ro/amaflffqtz.png Most importantly, the restrictions on the fonts: Standard font: A. Limited License. Subject to the terms of this License, you may use the Apple Font solely for designing or developing applications for Apple-branded products running on Apple’s iOS or OS X operating systems, as applicable. Compact font: A. Limited License. Subject to the terms of this License, you may use the Apple Font solely for purposes of design and development of applications for Apple Watch. They also include additional clauses requiring Developer Program membership and Apple-branded hardware.
- cr__ 11y ago
  The font in that picture is Myriad Pro, I believe.
brazzledazzle 11y ago
I can't put my finger on why but it feels a little cramped.

keyle 11y ago

For an introduction, it's a bare one.

cschmidt 11y ago

I wonder how many HN readers are too young to remember the original San Francisco font on the original Mac. It was the "ransom note" font. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_%281984_typeface%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_%281984_typeface...

jhugg 11y ago
Ransom note?
- function_seven 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ransom_note_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ransom_note_effect
  - robinson7d 11y ago
    Your parent likely knows what it means; the message is no longer clear but the post it was in reply to originally said "random note". Your parent was simply a suggested correction, which didn't hold up after the correction was made.
    - hrbrtglm 11y ago
      A diff button appearing for modified comments would be such a great feature ... :)
    - function_seven 11y ago
      Ah, thanks. I was confused by the confusion.
scelerat 11y ago
Not too young here; San Francisco was one of the original bitmapped 'city' fonts which shipped with the original Macintosh operating system, alongside Monaco, Chicago, Geneva, Los Angeles, Toronto, New York, Athens, Venice, London, and Cairo. http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=World_Class_Cities.txt http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=World_Class_Citie...

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

aaronbrethorst 11y ago

I've been using El Cap and iOS 9 (and watchOS 2.0) since Monday, and I'm really liking San Francisco. I feel like the keming could use a little tweaking in places, but—for the most part—it's a big improvement over Helvetica Neue for legibility. And it's also nice to feel like I'm no longer staring at Gap logos all day, every day.

derefr 11y ago
Haha, keming. [That's an M, whoever downvoted.] Turns out it's a subreddit! https://www.reddit.com/r/keming https://www.reddit.com/r/keming An on-topic example of keming, from said subreddit: http://i.imgur.com/jOZ58Vm.png http://i.imgur.com/jOZ58Vm.png Also, in searching for this, I just found a Google easter egg: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=kerning http://lmgtfy.com/?q=kerning (look at the search result body text.)
- aaronbrethorst 11y ago
  I'm glad someone caught the joke :)

yawaramin 11y ago

Some wag on Twitter pointed out that it should have been called Francisco Sans.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

JonathonW 11y ago

I find it mildly amusing how the linked page appears to be set in Myriad, not San Francisco. Also, how in the world do you actually get to that page from the root of the Apple Developer site? It's not linked from the Resources page [1] (its parent in its URL), and it's also not to be found on the UI design resources page [2]. I'm wondering because I saw this font download (the new version of San Fransisco, not the Watch variant, which has been up for a while) referenced a couple times earlier this week, but never could find it myself until just now when it was linked. [1] https://developer.apple.com/resources/ https://developer.apple.com/resources/ [2] https://developer.apple.com/design/ https://developer.apple.com/design/

calinet6 11y ago
I was struck by this also. Why would you release a brand new font that you plan to spread widely and use in all your products, and set the announcement in a different typeface? Makes no sense.
- jonhohle 11y ago
  It's not a font for body text. Just like you wouldn't set an article in Helvetica.
  - calinet6 11y ago
    You surely would, if it was appropriate. And if it is to be a system font, it will be used for body text as well. Not too different from Myriad in that context anyway.
- Sephiroth87 11y ago
  The font is still in beta, it'll be officially released alongside OS X 10.11 and iOS 9
- mortenjorck 11y ago
  This is just the age-old tension between marketing design standards and product design standards. Apple's marketing materials have all used Myriad Pro since the early 2000s (though Apple only recently got around to using a webfont on apple.com), and thus the announcement is produced according to those standards. San Francisco is a UI type family for use in products. Just as Apple has never preferred Lucida Grande or Helvetica for marketing (only using either on the web in the pre-webfont era), this announcement doesn't get set in San Francisco. If Apple has a webfont version of it at all, the only place it would get used is on icloud.com, which is an actual web-based product UI. All that said, this announcement could do with a bit more of the typeface on display than the paltry two letters seen here.

davidbarker 11y ago

There's also a video of the WWDC session, "Introducing the New System Fonts" https://developer.apple.com/videos/wwdc/2015/?id=804 https://developer.apple.com/videos/wwdc/2015/?id=804

Leszek 11y ago

So... what does it look like? The font on that page is Myriad, and I can't see link to a preview of the font itself.

dmix 11y ago
From wikipedia: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/San_Francisco_Display_SP.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/San_Fran... I like it personally. But I much prefer Google's new version of Roboto: https://camo.githubusercontent.com/3e191ddf621d46efd1fbfa919bc6a8175165f309/687474703a2f2f312e62702e626c6f6773706f742e636f6d2f2d694a31684e73585f4f5a412f553861724a6a50756235492f41414141414141414f67512f7443376573434a4b4c486b2f73313630302f7468655f6e65775f726f626f746f312e706e67 https://camo.githubusercontent.com/3e191ddf621d46efd1fbfa919...
- jacobolus 11y ago
  Note that that’s the version from the watch, which has substantially different shapes (most notably is less rounded) and metrics than the version for phones / computers, and is not appropriate for the size of type shown in the Wikipedia diagram.

brentis 11y ago

Slow news day...

dmritard96 11y ago

It kinda stresses my head out to read. Its too tall perhaps?

prewett 11y ago

What was wrong with Helvetica-Neue? Or what is better about San Francisco? I was hoping the page would give some reasoning I could get behind.

obstinate 11y ago
Fashion and taste evolves, and not always for reasons that are easy to articulate, especially to the laity.
LoSboccacc 11y ago
I like the new font. You can fit quite more characters on a single line, while maintaining high readability. It also seems to have more weight and being clearer from distance, but that may also be my monitor tricking me.
mproud 11y ago
Helvetica Neue wasn’t designed specifically to be read at small sizes on digital screens. Apple’s new font is, as it has a noticeably larger x-height and tracks wider on narrower letters, meaning it’s much easier to read. Helvetica = more elegant San Francisco = more legible

kapowaz 11y ago

Interestingly they've built two different versions of the typeface: Compact (for watchOS) and UI (for OS X/iOS). Compact is far closer to DIN or Roboto (with flattened vertical strokes on glyphs like the uppercase C, D and G), whereas UI is far more rounded, and looks a lot like Helvetica for some glyphs. I was concerned based on what I'd seen of the typography of the Apple Watch that it'd be too cold and characterless (I really dislike Roboto on Android) to use across OS X and iOS, but by creating this separate UI variant they're able to make it feel like a gradual transition from Helvetica Neue. It's so similar, in fact, that I'd not be surprised if we end up seeing more font quizzes asking: ‘Arial or Helvetica …or San Francisco?’

andmarios 11y ago

I would like to see more companies follow Google's lead and release their high quality fonts under a free or open source license. I understand a type foundry not making their product available for free, but software behemoths like apple, google and microsoft can and should help make quality fonts available for everyone.

fit2rule 11y ago

This is a really good font. Is there an analog of this font for Android, anyone know? Because, if there is a font that is similar enough to this, on Android, then I'll be happy to use San Francisco on iOS, and the alternative on Android. But, if there isn't, I will avoid this font and try to find one which is platform-friendly. There is no way I'm keen on designing, at the Type level, exclusively for Apple platforms. That's a play in this 'freebie' that is extraordinarily offensive.