56 ms·
Ross Ulbricht Sentenced to Life in Prison
- LulzSect 11y agoBecause real, actual murder isn't a serious enough crime for Life in Prison.
- steego 11y agoIt's his fault for getting into the wrong business. If he only laundered drug cartel money like HSBC, he would have just paid a fine.
- amyjess 11y agoMy condolences go to the mutual friends Ross and I share. Honestly, I don't have much sympathy for him directly (due to his complete and utter stupidity and lack of opsec), but I know this is going to hurt some people I care about, people who were good friends with Ross back in college, and I feel bad for them.
- hndude 11y agoThe amount of ego in this comment is astounding
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- crystaln 11y agoIf you don't have sympathy for people who have a "lack of opsec," you don't know much about sympathy...
- jsonjson 11y agoMe, me, me.. (inject sentence that appears not to be about others).. but more about me.
- TwiztidK 11y agoThis isn't really surprising. I think most "drug kingpins" would be able to get much shorter sentences by agreeing to turn in a bunch of smaller dealers. It seems like Ross' work was pretty solitary, so that wasn't really an option for him.
- PopsiclePete 11y agoMurderers get less than that. We are truly an interesting society, aren't we - somehow kids doing LSD, a mostly harmless substance, is causing us more harm, as a society, than, say, violence?
- api 11y agoIf he really did attempt to order a hit on someone, that changes the game a little. Now we're no longer talking about just drugs. But I agree that it's absolutely insane if the charges are just drug-related -- rapists get far less time than many drug dealers.
- TillE 11y agoAs far as I can tell, he wasn't actually convicted of anything like that.
- chc 11y agoHe wasn't distinctly charged with it, but according to the document tptacek linked earlier (https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1391926/gov-uscourts-nysd-422824-142-0.pdf https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1391...), the attempted murders for hire were considered to be an element of the criminal enterprise and conspiracy he was running. He was convicted of those charges, so as far as I can tell, he was convicted of something like that.
- fixermark 11y agoHe wasn't just a drug dealer. The crimes he was charged with are in the massive criminal conspiracy category.
- Squarel 11y agoDrug dealers tend to handle the drugs they are convicted of selling. Whilst I agree he deliberately set up a website designed for use for criminal transactions, I find it ridiculous that everyone (including the courts) would rather focus on people buying drugs online (if that was their big thing, then many of the major early newsgroup operators would be in prison for life, for having not even concealed names for newsgroups deliberately designed for buying and selling drugs), than on the selling of stolen credit cards and other identity theft sales. Sure, drugs are bad m'kay, and we have to stomp on people who use, buy and sell them or something, but, how many lives are destroyed by identity theft? Or do the courts think that is too complicated for people to understand, whilst the "He let drugs be sold on his website" is something even Fox News can communicate.
- brotoss 11y agoFuck the war on drugs
- programmernews3 11y agoFuck the drug dealers.
- joshuapants 11y agoYou know the dealer, the dealer is a man With a lot of grass in his hand Ah but the pusher is a monster Good god he's not a natural man The dealer, for a nickel lord He'll sell you lots of sweet dreams Ah but the pusher'll ruin your body Lord he'll leave, he'll leave your mind to scream
- brandon272 11y agoIt saddens me that acknowledging the war on drugs as being corrosive and detrimental is seen as extreme by mainstream modern society. Few seem to question extreme punishments for crimes related to the manufacture or distribution of drugs.
- programmernews3 11y agoThis is a sentence for an internet kingpin, who is also a (would-be) murderer.
- Retra 11y agoIt's not that extreme of an opinion. What is extreme is thinking the Ross Ulbricht is somehow a champion against the war on drugs, or that his conviction should be considered as representative of a pattern. Either way, people don't question these punishments because they don't fear them. And the don't fear them because they don't aspire to be drug lords or murderers.
- serve_yay 11y ago> But prosecutors, in their memo, argued that praising Silk Road for “harm reduction measures” was “akin to applauding a heroin dealer for handing out a clean needle with every dime bag: The point is that he has no business dealing drugs in the first place.” Lovely.
- Nadya 11y agoMistaking some delusional world of zero crime doesn't do any good for people living in reality. That 'moral dealer' who hands out clean needles would be doing good. I guess the moral high-ground is ignoring the number of users who die or contract diseases from dirty needles? That's a pretty fucked perspective. I see an issue with treating drug users (esp. recreational drug users) as somehow "less than human" because of their choices. If a heroin user dies or contracts disease from using a dirty needle, that is a sad thing and I would applaud a dealer who hands out clean needles to his clients to prevent it. Regardless of my stance on drugs and drug users.
- serve_yay 11y agoYes exactly, the reasoning proceeds from this silly world of "shoulds" which does not actually exist. In the actually-existing world, people buy drugs, and so there is value in addressing that demand as safely as possible. Instead we have cynical people like these, talking about how the real right thing is to just not sell drugs at all. (And that's not even getting into the issue of whether we should be allowed to have drugs as supposedly free people)
- Nadya 11y agoI originally read the parent quote in a non-sarcastic tone and thought you were supportive of their line of reasoning. (Libertarians say hi.)
- FlaceBook 11y ago> I see an issue with treating drug users (esp. recreational drug users) as somehow "less than human" because of their choices. The justice system only sees them as "less than human" until they can conveniently be used to create an emotional scene which can be used as ammo against someone the government doesn't like. See: the poor defenseless kid who would still be alive today if it weren't for the silk road forcing him to buy drugs and take them
- javert 11y agoGross miscarriage of justice. People have a right to buy drugs. Every single government actor involved in this case is far more guilty than Ross and, frankly, they are the ones that deserve prison. Yes, Ross should have realized you can't massively break the law and get away with it. He made a big mistake. But the mistake he made was assuming that other people were more benevolent than they really are. This young man viewed the world with a child-like, rosy-eyed perspective, and for that, he gets crushed by the boot of government brutality. Disclaimer: I have no involvement with any dark nets or online drug trade. edit: I don't know if he hired hitmen and if he did, I suspect it was in his own defense.
- dragonwriter 11y ago> Gross miscarriage of justice. People have a right to buy drugs. Legally, they do not. If you have a problem with that, take it up with (relevant to the federal laws at issue here) the Congress.
- murbard2 11y agoThat's very unlikely to work, now what?
- Touche 11y agoNext step is probably not starting a drug empire.
- peeters 11y agoNow you continue to not have the legal right to buy illegal drugs.
- dragonwriter 11y ago> That's very unlikely to work, now what? Try harder, like by working to convince the public that such a right should exist, so that other people join you in your effort to convince Congress to change the law.
- smhenderson 11y agoThat seems way too harsh to me. I have strong opinions on the US War on Drugs and it's failure to meaningful deal with drug use/abuse in the USA. And I feel even worse about how it's spilling out into the rest of the world as we go "global" with everything. I can't say I know every detail of the case but I don't recall anyone getting killed or even hurt by Mr. Ulbricht so in my mind the punishment does not fit the crime. IMHO the death penalty should be off the table completely (go Nebraska!) and life in prison reserved for only violent offenders. You can argue that he enabled people to harm themselves but I think that's stretching it. If people want to take drugs, even take too much drugs their going to get it somewhere. If drugs were legal and treatment of abuse the focus instead of punishment Silk Road wouldn't have existed in the first place.
- TylerE 11y agoThere was lots of sleazy stuff going down on SR totally unrelated to drugs...stolen credit cards, weapons, etc.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- my-bullshit-job 11y agoWeapons were never on silk road, iirc.
- LyndsySimon 11y agoWeapons were on SR in the early days, but were removed with the launch of "The Armory", a weapons-specific site. That site didn't last long, and eventually died for lack of interest.
- drcode 11y agoYou have to understand that the "murder for hire" evidence was introduced as part of the trial (at which point Ross' lawyer could have disputed it, but didn't) so it could be used as part of the sentencing decision... and that kind of takes the luster off of the "non-violent crime" argument.
- iblaine 11y agoLife without parole seems excessive. I think they're trying to make an example out of him due to how hard it is to detect and prosecute this type of crime.
- rl3 11y agoThe Bloomberg story[1] had some excellent excerpts from sentencing: U.S. District Judge Katherine Forrest in Manhattan rejected Ulbricht’s claim that he was naive and impulsive when he started Silk Road as an economic experiment. “It was a carefully planned life’s work,” Forrest told him Friday. “It was your opus.” and: Ulbricht, who plans an appeal, asked for mercy in a May 26 letter to the judge. He called Silk Road a “naive and costly idea” that had ruined his life. “I’ve had my youth, and I know you must take away my middle years, but please leave me my old age,” Ulbricht wrote. “Please, leave a small light at the end of the tunnel.” So much for mercy. [1] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-29/silk-road-mastermind-sentenced-to-life-in-prison-for-drug-bazaar http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-29/silk-road-...
- RockyMcNuts 11y agoIt's life, not life without parole. He'll get paroled, eventually. People should read some of the background, including haggling over the cost of a murder for hire. - http://www.wired.com/2015/05/silk-road-2/ http://www.wired.com/2015/05/silk-road-2/ Truth is, it's hard to run this sort of thing without getting ripped off, and then violence is the only way to discourage people from ripping you off. Watch Godfather movies, esp. part 2... Mafias arise out of human nature and the nature of the game. One of the many ironies of libertarian extremists is that actions which are considered illegitimate when taken by a democratic government become OK when taken by concentrated private power to protect private property.
- tedunangst 11y agoLast I heard federal parole isn't a thing.
- RockyMcNuts 11y ago
- mmanfrin 11y ago> and that at least six deaths were attributable to drugs bought on the site. The government recommended a sentence “substantially above” the 20-year minimum. Man, that is a bit of a mental stretch to blame drug ODs on the runner of a forum. He did not make the drugs, sell the drugs, or transfer the drugs, but the prosecutors faulted him in the OD of people who used those drugs?
- kiba 11y agoThe cost of imprisoning someone as of 2010: 31,000 USD per years.[1] Ross is 31 years old, so he may live for 40 years. That mean imprisoning this man will cost the US taxpayer 1.4 million USD in lifetime cost. This doesn't take into account opportunity cost, expenses for trial, the cost of the drug war, and so on. [1] http://www.thecrimereport.org/news/inside-criminal-justice/2012-02-the-high-cost-of-prisons-using-scarce-resources-wise http://www.thecrimereport.org/news/inside-criminal-justice/2...
- jjcm 11y agoIt's interesting. On one hand, if a leader of a traditional drug distribution network landed a life in prison sentence, I wouldn't have thought twice about it. With Silkroad though, I'm actually convinced by the defendants argument: that it provided safer, more trustworthy drugs to users. I've had friends who've died from purchasing bad drugs at raves from people who were looking to make money and run. In one situation it ended up being rat poison. The guy had other drugs in his system, and combined with the poison his body went into shock. With darknet markets and independent lab testing networks, this type of thing doesn't happen. People are still going to use drugs. I'd rather law enforcement go after the guys who are selling rat poison at raves than the guys who are setting up safe distribution networks.
- drcode 11y agoThough I agree with you about the "safer drugs" argument, Ross' site was the worst possible thing that could happen to the supporters of safe, anonymous marketplaces- The evidence that he was willing to use brutal mob-style violence to support his business has yet to be disputed by anyone in a credible way.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- drcode 11y agoI certainly admire your bravery in putting forward such an argument without a throwaway account.
- mindslight 11y agoYes, the thoughtpolice have gotten pretty intense lately. Still, I think he'll be fine on this topic. BTW, that argument is like Agorism 101.
- drcode 11y ago
- RivieraKid 11y agoWow, that's almost unbelievable and very sad. I mean, it's questionable whether he caused any actual harm.
- JoeAltmaier 11y agoHiring a hitman?
- tghw 11y agoThat's just a rumor until he's convicted of it.
- JoeAltmaier 11y agoHe hired an undercover cop. How guilty does he have to be?
- tghw 11y agoHe wasn't convicted, so in the eyes of the law he is still innocent.
- redwood 11y agoHis trailblazing has parallels to Sean Parker. Of course, liberating music was hardly as valuable to society as removing the need for bloodbaths to distribute drugs. But what are you going to do.
- Touche 11y agoHe didn't quite remove that need according to prosecution evidence.
- OceanPowers 11y ago"liberating music" - what planet do you inhabit?
- iaw 11y agoI'm not sure how to feel about this. On the one hand, the kid rolled the dice in a high stakes game and was fully penalized. On the other hand, the logical basis behind the prohibition of illicit substances seems flawed. I wonder how things would have turned out without the murder for hire angle.
- JanSolo 11y agoOn the surface the sentence seems a bit steep doesn't it? I expect it's because he attempted to have at least two people killed. I don't think either case succeeded but there was clearly intent to murder.
- facepalm 11y agoFor what charges exactly - did they sentence him for murder or planned murder now? Or just for distributing narcotics? It seems rather weird.
- amyjess 11y agoHere's a list I found: Narcotics trafficking, distribution of narcotics by means of the Internet, and conspiracy to traffic fraudulent identification documents, participation in narcotics trafficking conspiracy, continuing criminal enterprise, computer hacking conspiracy, and money laundering conspiracy. Source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/katevinton/2014/08/25/alleged-silk-road-creator-ross-ulbricht-hit-with-three-new-drug-and-identity-fraud-charges/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/katevinton/2014/08/25/alleged-si...
- creativityhurts 11y agoYou can find the list in this comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9627092 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9627092
- baddox 11y ago> Judge Forrest told Mr. Urlbricht that “what you did in connection with Silk Road was terribly destructive to our social fabric.” That's one of the most ridiculous claims I have seen in a while.
- api 11y agoThat's the basis of the war on drugs. If it were about health soft drinks, cigarettes, junk food, and hard liquor would be treated like narcotics. If it were about preventing addiction, casinos would not be allowed to use cognitive neuroscience to optimize slot machines. America, for all its prattle about freedom and individualism, is like most other societies an authoritarian collectivist state. Freedom is just a symbol, not a real thing. You are allowed freedom within certain domains as long as you don't do anything too challenging to the "social fabric." If you do, a whole host both legal and quasi-legal options are deployed against you. Search for "cointelpro" for a good historical example. If you can't be legally prosecuted, you'll be quasi-legally or even illegally harassed and persecuted. Alcohol is far worse than many illegal drugs, but it's legal because "normal" people use it. You can't make being a hippie illegal, but you can intensely prosecute certain things that hippies do. You can't make being black illegal, but you can do the same there -- crack and cocaine are exactly the same chemical, but crack carries a harsher sentence because minorities use it while rich white people largely use cocaine. The reason a lot of this coalesced around drugs is that the constitution has nothing to say in that department. You can't ban religions, or speech, or styles of dress, but there's nothing in there about a right to sovereignty over your body, and the regulation of trade is explicitly permitted. So drugs, being something that correlates with certain cultures, serves as a wide open legal vehicle for attacking minority populations.
- fixermark 11y agoMore telling: alcohol was for a time illegal in the United States, and that law was repealed after observing the effect it had on the social order.
- omgitstom 11y agoIf it did, they should be able to prove it with some data. SR shut down in 2013, did they see a cliff of less ODs / deaths in hospitals? But yea, I believe it is ridiculous as well, but the court needed to voice their opinion with the sentence.
- rayiner 11y agoI think the sentence is obscene. I doubt my teachers growing up, who would shriek "just say no!" at school assemblies, feel the same way. I imagine they find the idea of little Johnny being able to buy meth over the Internet terrifying. Guess who votes. It's like stoning people for adultery in the Middle East. You have to really figure out why people consider drug use such an existential threat to the community to figure out why they suoport such harsh enforcement of these laws.
- kevinskii 11y agotptacek's comment [1] makes a convincing argument that Ross's attempts to hire a hitman were a legitimate factor in his sentencing. If so, then a life sentence seems quite fair based on what I've read. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9627094 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9627094
- haberman 11y agoI don't know enough about this story to have an overall opinion, but this particular exchange made me angry: > His lawyer, Joshua L. Dratel, in submissions to the judge, argued that the website’s “harm reduction” ethos made it safer than traditional drug dealing on the street. > But prosecutors, in their memo, argued that praising Silk Road for “harm reduction measures” was “akin to applauding a heroin dealer for handing out a clean needle with every dime bag: The point is that he has no business dealing drugs in the first place.” When one side of the argument is based in real-world impacts, and the other side has nothing but an appeal to existing rules, it's a pretty good indication that the rules need changing. It's an infuriating power play to say "you had no business doing that" if you can't come up with a good reason why not.
- nemo44x 11y agoWell, I believe the reason is because it is against the law. On a side note, I do think if a heroin dealer gave away a clean needle, that would be commendable.
- rayiner 11y agoPeople support keeping drugs (with the exception of marijuana) by 70-80%. Presumably they have their reasons. They vote. It's not the prosecutor's place to justify or explain the law.
- haberman 11y agoSee my reply here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9627467 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9627467
- anigbrowl 11y agoBear in mind that prosecutors have a professional duty to zealously argue the government's case just as the defense lawyers have a duty to zealously argue for innocence or lenity of their clients. Unfortunately judges no longer have that much discretion to weigh the competing arguments because of the mandatory sentencing guidelines Congress came up with. It has since been established by the Supreme Court that the guidelines are just guidelines rather than being binding, but sadly any judge that says 'these guidelines are crap, I've considered them and now I'm going to ignore them' is committing career suicide unless the high sentence would be so bizarre as to truly shock the conscience. And the American legal conscience unfortunately has a very high shock threshold these days, as does the population in general. I mean, look at how many people cheerfully support torture despite the massive intellectual and ethical pitfalls involved. Many of those people are also indifferent to the Constitutional basis of the judicial branch and start foaming at the mouth any time a court says a piece of legislation is unconstitutional.
- JanSolo 11y agoPerhaps if he had made even a token effort to not permit illegal sales on SilkRoad he'd be hailed as the new Jeff Bezos. Instead, he'll be denounced as a drug peddling fraudster. A shame; I thought his ideas had merit.
- murbard2 11y agoNo, he'd have been a shitty competitor to eBay no one would have ever heard of. Illegality is/was the whole point.
- kevinwang 11y agoThis sentence seems pretty disproportionate to the crime. Pretty fucked up at a human level too.
- contingencies 11y agoNo surprises there. The libertarian defense is hard to hold once fat stashes of cash and murder come in to play: the US certainly did a good and legally questionable job on public character assassination prior to the sentencing! That said, one can't help but wonder if perhaps the movement in which characters as diverse as Assange, Dotcom, Snowden, ThePirateBay and Ulbricht can be placed is too powerful to snub out with mere regulatory reactionism... particularly given the economic state of much of the educated world and the imminent environmental challenges we face as a planet. If there's one thing that the study of complex systems teach us, it's that there is strength in heterogeneity. Perhaps it's time for America to change its tune and stop pressuring countries worldwide to overpolice their populations in myriad ways (drugs, internet piracy, IP laws). May we live to see more enlightened times, progressive approaches to state-sponsored social remediation, and less of this nationalism "my way or the highway" / "with us or against us" claptrap that Einstein so eloquently summarized: Nationalism is an infantile disease: the measles of mankind.
- codecamper 11y agoAmazing. Write software, make billions. Write some other software, get life in prison.
- knodi123 11y agoIncredible. Fire a gun at a deer, get meat. Fire a gun at a baby, get life in prison. Intransigent. Set a log on fire, keep warm. Set a house on fire, get convicted of insurance fraud and arson.
- codecamper 11y agoI was just thinking what it may have been like from his perspective. To him, it was the same set of actions as was required to start something like AirBnb or some such. You write software. You get your initial users, etc. You get feedback & you loop. With the same set of actions & work, pointing in a different direction, he could have done quite well for himself working on another idea. I'm guessing his biggest downfall really was in having an aversion to working with others. He could work with others at a startup and make some great stuff & quite possibly do well. Instead, he chose a more sure fire approach to making money on his own -- with the morality and legality of what he was doing as the cost.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- OceanPowers 11y agospecious argumentation. nobody cares about 'software' one way or the other. SR was a 'service' that broke many, many laws.
- mdonahoe 11y agoI don't read this as an argument at all. I read it as a reflection on the power of software.
- srdev 11y agoThis is not the slightest bit amazing. You're being purposely obtuse by removing any and all context here.
- vvpan 11y ago"What you did in connection with Silk Road was terribly destructive to our social fabric". That sounds like something from the 19th century.
- r0naa 11y agoI think that this is completely disproportionate. He is being treated as if he was a serial killer or a mob-boss. Hell, even Al Capone was only sentenced to 11 years in Prison.
- eropple 11y agoCapone was sentenced to eleven years for tax evasion, not more serious criminal offenses.
- bediger4000 11y agoRight, but everyone knew that he'd had people whacked, and maybe even done some whacking himself. Just like the not-very-explicit "murder for hire" used to justify the astonishing sentence given Ulbricht.
- codecamper 11y agoI'd say it's an unfair sentence, given that with bitcoin & a decentralized approach, it is unlikely that future versions of this sort of thing will be stoppable by any centralized government. They stopped & sued Napster. Did it stop file sharing? I think the government misplayed their cards -- again. Better to have partnered with Ulbricht -- and had a part in creating whatever future version of the market would be. Better to get some market share in whatever comes next -- then make some big busts that way.
- zf00002 11y ago>it is unlikely that future versions of this sort of thing will be stoppable by any centralized government Silk road 2 has already been busted.
- AndrewUnmuted 11y agoWhat about Abraxas, BlackBank, Agora, KISS, Outlaw, East India Company, Babylon, Oxygen, The Real Deal, Bloomsfield, and The Crypto Market?
- zf00002 11y agoI don't know. But hinging the argument on bitcoin and decentralization seems short-sighted and letting yourself fall into the same traps as the guys who have been busted.
- codecamper 11y agoWell I have no idea what will be the ultimate version of this, but like all ideas, it will probably continue to evolve and improve itself. software is just codified ideas you know.
- michaelby 11y agoEveryone seems to be looking at this as some sort of travesty of justice. However, there is significant evidence that he tried to order hits on people. While there's no (public) evidence that he successfully murdered anyone, he clearly had lost his regard for human life. We're in a day and age where people can cause tremendous harm to others using their mind alone, without throwing a punch or pulling a trigger. Just because he didn't personally cause physical harm to people doesn't mean he can't cause it to happen! I think it's important for society to be protected from people with his mindset.
- imh 11y agoFrom other comments, it seems he wasn't tried for that stuff though. I don't think it's a good thing to include considerations in sentencing that he wasn't tried for. If there's evidence he did that, and you want to put him away for a long time because of it, then try him for it! Punishing him for that without trying him for it seems like punishment without trial, which is bad. The alternative is that this punishment is just for nonviolent stuff, for which it seems excessive.
- wyager 11y agoThis sentencing had nothing to do with the alleged hiring of a hitman. That accusation should have absolutely no bearing on this sentence.
- zanny 11y agoHis convictions were for hacking (and I'd love to know the details on that... who exactly did Ross hack?) criminal enterprise conspiracy, and narcotics trafficking. The closing is in a pdf somewhere up the thread. No attempted murder charges though. This man is literally going to jail forever on the charge of proividing people a place to buy opium. Maybe he tried to hire hits, but that didn't make the final conviction list, though some in this thread are trying to say that "narcotics conspiracy" is a broader charge that somehow? includes murder for hire charges.
- gr8b8m8-88 11y agoSo let's get this straight for the justice system: 1. misleading the American public into going to a series of costly wars through lies about WMDs -> not punishable 2. Weakening Glass-Stegal and encouraging questionable and irresponsible risk-taking at major banking institutions -> not punishable 3. Fraudulent evaluation of risk-ratings by trusted agencies for the sake of profit leading to worst financial disaster since great depression -> not punishable, actually, rewarded with billions in bail-out by tax payers 4. setting up and running a website to host underground drug trade with bitcoins -> punishable by life-sentence Not that what Ulbricht did was right or that he shouldn't be punished... but his biggest problem was that his business didn't generate enough profit at the expense of the public. Justice might be blind, but even she can still smell money.
- hockeybias 11y agoGlad to see everything so simplified. ...I used to think things weren't so black and white. Now I know better.
- tizzdogg 11y agoI would change "not punishable" to "not punished". Sure you could be punished for all those things, but there just isnt enough political will to do so. Ulbricht's error was being a criminal whose punishment affects nobody in power.
- pvaldes 11y agoI can't upvote this enough times... Yup, you really nailed it.
- rhino369 11y ago1. There is no evidence to support purposeful lying about WMDs. Bush admin rushed the intelligence agency and relied on Yes Men to build their story. I'm sure there was some law breaking going on but good luck identifying who what and when. 2. Glass Stegal wouldn't have prevented shit. In fact the combination banks Glass Stegal would have prevented--BoA and Chase--were the banks who were strong enough to absorb the shitty failed banks--merill and lehman--that were often just investment banks. Taking irresponsible risks isn't a crime either. 3) No evidence of fraud. These agencies trusted the financial models and those models didn't work. Fuckups aren't punished in our society the way intentional law breaking is. Should be guillotine every founder whose company fails?
- sudioStudio64 11y agoThe thing that you need to take from this is the state re-asserting its primacy in the face of an incredibly disruptive* technology. I think that even if Ulbricht hadn't attempted to have people murdered the penalty would have been extreme. When challenged bureaucracy over compensates...through that lens the governments actions in several areas is explainable if not just. * I'm sorry for using the word "disruptive".
- icelancer 11y ago> I'm sorry for using the word "disruptive". I have the same amount of guilt you do when I use that word. But in this case I think it was probably the best word. Annoying when normal words get reclassed into buzzwords.
- wclax04 11y agoWouldn't the USPS/FedEx/UPS also be liable as a drug courrier?
- argonaut 11y agoNot at all. I used to read the SR forums, and a common concern was dealing with packages getting inspected (without opening them - presumably drug sniffing dogs or some other drug detection mechanism) and then getting a letter/visit from the police. It was rare enough (and you had plausible deniability since anyone could have sent that package) that it wasn't a huge concern, though.
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y agoNo, because they took reasonable precautions and tried to stop drug parcels etc. They're not liable because a few snook through their defences. They'd be liable if they had no defences.
- srdev 11y agoNo. Intent and context matters. USPS/FedEx/UPS are businesses that primarily perform legal services, and follow US laws when its discovered that they were used for illicit purposes. On the other hand, Silk Road was built from the bottom up as a black market to service illegal goods. The idea that they just provided an anonymous marketplace and that unfortunately had illegal stuff happen on it is transparent lie that ignores the work Ross and his team put into promoting it as a drug marketplace. Context and intent are important and laws aren't computer programs.
- cryoshon 11y agoFTA: "Judge Forrest told Mr. Urlbricht that “what you did in connection with Silk Road was terribly destructive to our social fabric.”" Can't help but counter this claim by stating that buying drugs via Silk Road is probably not very destructive in any sane analysis, especially compared to street level drug dealing. There's no corners to hold, no rivals to fight with territory over, no deals to go bad, no real access by minors, and no real impedance to the function of any tangible physical location or bystander.
- soup10 11y agoEdit: I didn't know he ordered ordered 5 hits before writing this post, but i'm going to leave it up. I guess he got desperate and crazy towards the end Seriously. The way he invokes the words "our social fabric" makes it out like Forrest was personally affected. It's easy to imagine Urlbricht rehabilitating and becoming a productive member of society but instead his life has just been destroyed. It's not justice and it's not the right thing to do. If one person decides to put another person in a cage for the rest of their life, it's clearly a horrendous stomach turning crime. It's no less horrendous when the justice system does it. But we've decided that it's a necessary evil that society requires. We should be working as a society to minimize the necessary evil and rehabilitate people but we're not and it's a tragedy.
- ubernostrum 11y agoI didn't know he ordered ordered 5 hits before writing this post, but i'm going to leave it up. I guess he got desperate and crazy towards the end Just to throw out an observation: the idea that being in this business kicked off a spiral of actions which led to him being "crazy and desperate" to the point of trying to have people killed is precisely the argument that's been made by people who support the drug war, about the slippery slope of consequences that follow from getting involved with drugs. I am not sure why someone who so perfectly embodies the other side's narrative is being held up as a shining heroic example by supporters of legalization.
- startupfounder 11y agoBlack markets exist because demand exists, whether we like it or not, whether we think it's good or bad. Black markets are self regulated and that is why you see so much violence in the illegal drug market. Restricting supply drives up prices and profit and increases incentives to increase supply. This is a vicious never ending cycle. Ross was tempted by helping to increase supply. Maybe if we had a legal and regulated location where you could do any drugs but under the supervision of counselors we could help reduce demand and end the cycle. I believe a church in the Netherlands did this in their basement. They provided discounted heroin that could only be used there and addicts reduced their consumption and had access to counselors. I am not supporting what Ross did to give access to illegal drugs, I just believe because there is such demand trying to reduce supply is a losing battle where only law enforcement equipment supply companies win.
- zanny 11y agoYou don't really have to just believe. It isn't even the fifty years of historical evidence on the contrary in the US, it is how almost every nation south of the US boarder in our hemisphere has been systemically destroyed trying to supply all of the black market US drug needs.
- placeybordeaux 11y agoIt looks like the lessons here are 1) Be careful how your promote your criminal enterprise (early bitcoin talk pages about silk road are from Ross) 2) Don't commit a crime to cover up a lesser crime (Covering up running silk road by trying to commit murder by hire) 3) regularaly check the IP of your service that is running a TOR site. Requests sent to that IP should have been blocked.
- rhino369 11y agoThe real lesson should be don't serious commit crimes. I don't know any organization that has never had a security fuck up.
- bediger4000 11y agoThe real lesson should be don't serious commit crimes. The whole of morality is not contained by the law. How about those folks who broke apartheid law by going to the University of Alabama? I stipulate that operational security is not exactly part of breaking apartheid laws, but still... Copyright laws are going way way overboard. How about breaking those laws in order to expose corruption? That could happen, easily. "Don't commit serious crimes" is advice for the conformist.
- rhino369 11y agoWell now he is going to conform his ass to federal prison for his entire life. Going to UofA during segregation wasn't a serious crime. As a practical matter, civil disobedience is most effective when you aren't committing serious crimes. Throwing a rock through a window to support coffee farmers in Guatemala is one thing. Bombing a logging operation is quite another. Even if you think you are being moral, it's really stupid to commit serious crimes.
- vectorpush 11y agoThe fact that he explicitly paid for the murder and torture of former employees and their roommates is enough for me to feel like life in prison is fair. Yes, an actual murder is a worse outcome than a murder-for-hire that never materialized, but if you're a rich and sophisticated drug-kingpin attempting to commission torture and murder to secure your criminal enterprise, the punishment should be the most severe. Murder is always a heinous crime, but in my view, it is more heinous to direct an organization that systematically orchestrates torture and murder for profit.
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y agoIt's also a case where I don't think the fact the hitmen were part of a sting would vindicate him. I can understand the argument you were pressured into buying drugs. But actually paying money to have someone murdered? That would pass a moral barrier most people have. You can't use the fact it's a sting as an opt-out there.
- MichaelGG 11y agoMurder is terrible, sure. But if it was to save thousands of innocent vendors and customers, then perhaps it's justified. The government does exactly that every day. It's Ross's fault he allowed anyone into that position in the first place. But an extortionist was directly trying to ruin the lives of many people. It's not entirely different than shooting an intruder in your house.
- geetee 11y agoYou could make an argument that the alleged murder for hire attempts were simply self defense. The consequence of being exposed is life in prison, and I don't think any of us can say with certainty how far we'd go to avoid life in prison. It's not like he was trying to have innocent bystanders murdered. If selling drugs was not a crime, there would be no opportunity for blackmail, and nobody to silence.
- geetee 11y agoI knew it wouldn't be a popular angle, but maybe some counterpoints along with those down votes please?
- Natsu 11y agoYou don't get to claim self-defense when your own illegal actions led to the situation. Nor when there isn't an immediate threat to injure you and threatening to expose your illegal actions just isn't going to cut it. You can find further details here: http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=864 http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=864 It's written by an actual lawyer, in spite of being in comic format.
- geetee 11y agoI didn't mean to imply that it could be considered self-defense according to the letter of the law. Just floating the scenario where you're running a business that, while illegal, is not morally wrong, and you're faced with the possibility of spending the rest of your life behind bars. What do you do?
- pnut 11y agoOther figures running drug distribution operations at this scale stay physically outside the US and build up paramilitary defense/enforcement. They either face an identical fate to Ross or meet a violent end. This is not a surprising outcome in any way, and his use of the Internet rather than traditional methods absolves him of nothing.
- ratboy666 11y agoJyoti Saran had 15,000 customers a week, made 200 million dollars, and was filling 3,000 orders per day. Sentence? 12 years. Rick Ross was sentences to life. For 100kg of cocaine. Sentence was reduced to 20 years. So, we will see what happens to Ulbricht. My guess is that the life will stick, though. After all, this involved computers.
- wozniacki 11y agoA cursory Google search does not reveal much about this Jyoti Saran other than the details of his indictment [1] and the auction of his Arlington mansion[2]. Is little else known about this figure, even as he is nearing completion of his prison term? [1] http://www.justice.gov/usao/txn/PressRel09/saran_sen_pr.html http://www.justice.gov/usao/txn/PressRel09/saran_sen_pr.html [2] http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703859204575526421570642784 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527487038592045755264...
- elwell 11y agoCreating a platform that can be used to buy/sell illegal goods shouldn't be against the law IMO. Are car manufacturers thrown in jail when someone drives their product when drunk?
- omegaham 11y agoNo, because the vast majority of people driving are obeying the law (or at least are committing very minor crimes). In contrast, the vast majority of people on Silk Road were buying and selling illegal goods. It boils down to intent. If you intend to make a legitimate platform for commerce that also happens to be used for illegal stuff, (Craigslist, for example) you're in the clear as long as you aren't actively aiding them. In contrast, if you set up your platform with the explicit intention of selling illegal goods, then you're in trouble.
- hardwaresofton 11y agoWhat are the other sentences people have received for attempted murder/ hiring a hitman? People seem to be hinging their "this is a relatively fair judgement" opinions on the fact that he attempted to/hired one or more hitmen for one or more hits... If that's what they're prosecuting on, then there's precedent, right? Is that precedent life in prison? While I don't agree/defend what Ulrich was doing, I think the sentence is heavy-handed. I think arguments can be made for life in prison being worse (or more cruel) than death. And if we compare his crimes to some of the things governments do (or allegedly do) behind closed doors, I wonder if this is really "justice". I don't know if there's much merit to him "more safely distributing drugs", but I wonder if a sentence this heavy would have been issued elsewhere outside the US. [EDIT] - Reading other posts, it seems like he wasn't actually charged/convicted for the attempted murder/hitman stuff. If that wasn't the case, then I disagree with the verdict that much more [EDIT2] - People who are under the impressions that Snowden should have stayed in the US to face proper sentencing should also note the sentencing in this case. Circumstances are different, but, I'm pretty sure Snowden could have faced worse, since Treason is pretty high up there (and makes you eligible for the death penalty). Ironic given that we (american culture) iconize Nathan Hale ("I regret that I have but one life to give...")
- rdl 11y agoSo what confuses me now is what happens if prohibition ends in ~20 years. Does he have any hope of re-evaluation then, assuming the Government decides not to separately prosecute the other crimes?
- mzzk 11y agoPerhaps, but the murder-for-hire would remain. He isn't leaving prison anytime soon.
- dragonwriter 11y ago> So what confuses me now is what happens if prohibition ends in ~20 years. Does he have any hope of re-evaluation then, assuming the Government decides not to separately prosecute the other crimes? An act becoming legal after one has been sentenced for it generally has no effect on past sentences. Executive actions like pardon are possible, but are not in any way necessarily impacted by changes in the legality of the act for which one was convicted. (Though, the same changes in the political landscape which produce changes to the law may influence the politics of discretionary executive actions like pardons.)
- currentoor 11y agoI strongly believe that my son would be here today if Ross Ulbricht had not created Silk Road Wrong, you're son would be here if you were a better parent.
- ars 11y agoYou don't know that. For some kids better parents mean better behavior. But some kids will act badly no matter what their parents do. It sucks to say this, but some people just have bad genes, and there is nothing someone outside can do to help.
- currentoor 11y agoWell then it's just natural selection. Unless his son managed to reproduce already... Then it's just a horrible cycle of pain and blame.
- zxyzzxxx 11y agoThe quote( not your comment ) is a logical fallacy. Even if was not accepted as hard evidence in the court, it was spoken, and has influenced the jury.
- jabscam2013 11y agoRight? Your fucking son made is own decision to try Heroin. Sorry he died, but don't go blaming the dealer for your sons actions.
- logfromblammo 11y agoSo he gets life for starting and operating a shady business that was "terribly destructive to our social fabric" and "lowered the barriers to obtaining illegal [goods and services]". Great. Now that we have a solid benchmark for the minimum level of criminality possible to get a lifetime imprisonment sentence, we can finally start prosecuting those responsible for the financial fraud that caused the last recession. It was pretty destructive to our social fabric. There was a lot of bar-lowering going on, too. Right? Hello? Anyone? [mic goes dead, and house lights shut off] I guess I'll just go home, then. In light of the differential between the outcomes of prosecutions of highly publicized crimes, I think perhaps he was convicted for "failing to pay the minimum campaign contributions tax and lobbying tax on filthy lucre" and also got the mandatory minimum sentence for "we need to make a really big example of this guy because we are totally unprepared to handle anyone smarter and more cautious than him", with just a little shot of "X on the Internet is a thousand times worse than X in person".
- farresito 11y ago“I strongly believe that my son would be here today if Ross Ulbricht had not created Silk Road,” said the man, who was identified in court only as Richard. Such an ignorant comment it doesn't even deserve to be commented.
- zxyzzxxx 11y agoJurors probably aren't experts in rhetoric so such statements have a huge influence on them.
- mikeyouse 11y agoThe court docs were taken down since Ulbricht's attorney messed up and uploaded unredacted versions, but if that's the guy I think it is; His son had started abusing benzos but wanted to try heroin -- he bought some H on the Silk Road and then ODed after trying it once. When they found his body, the computer was literally open to the Silk Road page.. (There were 6 deaths detailed in the sentencing guidelines, so my recounting may be slightly off, but feel free to exchange this one for the 16-year old kid who bought LSD on the SR, had a terrible trip, then jumped to his death off of a balcony) Making dangerous drugs vastly easier to purchase by those who had no previous source for them isn't harmless.
- farresito 11y agoYou can buy heroin everywhere. It's his job, as a father, to educate his son about drugs and other addictive substances. Blaming Silk Road is lying to yourself, but some people lack autocriticism and like blaming other people. In fact, I bet what they sold on Silk Road was of higher quality than what they sell on the streets. The more I read about the war on drugs, the sadder I become. I used to be one of those that wanted to leave everything as it is today, and I've changed my mind.
- nemmonszz 11y agoI knew Ross for a few years in college. I find it almost inconceivable to believe that he tried to have people killed. I also find the sentence completely disproportionate to the 7 charges he was tried and convicted of. This is a sad day. edit: I also understand the point that his hiring the hitman was an overt act under one of the other charges, but, speaking as someone who is not a lawyer, it seems to me that such a weighty punishment should have to be based on a much more explicit charge than this. I sincerely doubt that they would have been able to make the case for life in prison if not for the murder-for-hire angle, and as such i think it should have been charged. This seems like a dishonest and sneaky way to prosecute someone. Of course, i have my biases.
- earlyresort 11y agoHard drugs are one of those things that have different consequences for different types of people. An intelligent, wealthy, employable person can dabble with them, have a good time, and usually get away with it. Should they get addicted and screw up their lives, they can usually get help and bounce back without permanent consequences. People who're a little less well-off intellectually and economically aren't so resilient. Should they get addicted to hard drugs and screw up their lives, they usually don't bounce back from it - their lives are ruined forever. Since HN is full of intelligent, wealthy, employable people, the comments on this thread don't surprise me a bit. And yes, I agree that drug policy in the United States could stand to be reformed a little. But when evaluating the harm a person's actions can cause to society, I wish people would think a little more about not just themselves, but that vast chunk of society that's not lucky enough to not be as privileged as we are.
- haroldp 11y agoCan you link to a source, or is this just your conjecture?
- peteyPete 11y agohttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-real-cause-of-addicti_b_6506936.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-real-cause-of-...
- hebdo 11y agoThis kind of rationalizations may ruin your entire life one day. You cannot and do not know where will any experimentation with drugs bring you to. Remember that the first step of the twelve steps is "admitting that one cannot control one's alcoholism, addiction or compulsion". Finding reasons why you are more privileged than others makes this step even harder.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago12 steps has a pretty poor record.
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y agoIn a tragic miscarriage of justice, a man who made bucketloads of money from exploiting drug addiction and who hired hitmen, is sentenced. This innocent liar, drug dealer and moblord has been incorrectly sentenced for life. Free Ross Ulbricht, he never did anything wrong, except for all that stuff he did do. Ross Ulbricht, who is tragically falsely accused of running Silk Road, is a hero for challenging the War on Drugs by definitely not selling drugs, and a nice guy.
- shit_parade2 11y agoTotal circus. Torture people for the government and you dont even get a warning. How do people continue believe they live in a society governed by law? It governed by naked, corrupt power.
- whoopdedo 11y agoHave any of the carding forum operators been sentenced to life in prison? Or any prison time? Or even been arrested? I say this as someone who just found out he's had $500 stolen from him. Of course I half blame the banks and credit card processors who allow card numbers to be passed around so easily.
- yarou 11y agoAs I stated much earlier (I believe it was during pre-trial), Ulbricht was convicted in the court of public opinion, even before he went to trial. Some may hail this sentence as a victory for justice or some similar nonsense, but there is a deeper problem here. Civil liberties continue to be eroded at an extremely alarming rate in this country that the concept of "justice" applies in a very political context. It's pretty much a joke. The message here is that if you attempt to live outside of this current system, you will be punished.
- paulpauper 11y agoIf there is any justice, maybe he'll get a pardon in 20-30 years for good behavior. The government said they identified six individuals who overdosed and died of drugs they purchased on Silk Road. The parents of two of those individuals—25-year-old Bryan B. from Boston and 16-year-old Preston B. from Perth, Australia—spoke at Friday’s sentencing, pleading emotionally to the judge to give Mr. Ulbricht a harsh sentence. More people die of prescription and OTC drugs.
- caseysoftware 11y agoI think it's great that his LinkedIn page is still online.
- jmkni 11y agoSo it is! You would think the first thing he would have done given access to the internet would be to take it down. Kind of suggests he hasn't even been online since the day he was arrested, crazy!
- markbnj 11y agoThe dual solicitations of murder put him well off the list of people I will ever have any sympathy for. Having said that, he's 31 and reading "two life sentences" and "no chance of parole," was a little bit of a shock. He didn't actually kill anyone and I would guess some actual murderers have served less time. I can't help but feel this is mostly meant as a warning to any other smart guy who might think about setting up a black market.
- markbnj 11y agoShoot this is a repost thread. Didn't notice the older one before replying.
- themartorana 11y agoI'm very against making examples of people. Justice should be dealt entirely equally. Punishing one person more harshly as a warning to hypothetical criminals with a like mind is an unequal application of justice. I didn't know he had solicited murder (it's not mentioned in the short article linked) so I was wondering what made a glorified drug dealer middleman deserve life in prison. I agree that "without parole" is ridiculous.
- icebraining 11y agoI didn't know he had solicited murder (it's not mentioned in the short article linked) so I was wondering what made a glorified drug dealer middleman deserve life in prison. But the thing is: he wasn't even convicted for that!
- tptacek 11y agoHe was convicted of the charge to which that allegation was formally attached.
- icebraining 11y agoYes, but he can still be convicted for that in Maryland, right? So massively inflating this sentence due to the murder-for-hire allegations sounds like potentially convicting him twice for the same crime.
- Andrenid 11y ago> The 31-year-old physics graduate and former boy scout was handed five sentences: one for 20 years, one for 15 years, one for five and two for life. All are to be served concurrently with no chance of parole. Meanwhile: > Hu Wanlin was in prison for human trafficking. That didn't stop him from opening a medical practice while jailed. Once he was released after a retrial in 1997, Hu treated hundreds of patients with an herbal remedy that actually contained sodium sulphate. 146 people died of his treatments. He was arrested in 1999 and sentenced to 15 years in prison for practicing medicine without a license. 146 people dead.. 15 years in prison. Run a website that helps people connect with drug dealers.. multiple life sentences.
- giarc 11y agoYou are comparing two completely different legal systems (US vs China) and you are surprised there is a difference?
- pakled_engineer 11y agoThe guy who ran "The Farmer's Market" AKA Adam's Flowers who was pre Silk Road and busted during Operation Adam Bomb was only given 10yrs for hustling MDMA/Acid/weed, and ran an impressive smuggling operation where he had US resellers pick up ocean freight shipments, and his plea has him serving time in a Netherlands prison. The difference is he didn't make his black market political, which unfortunately Ross did. He also didn't try to kill anybody which although thrown out was still referenced by the sentencing judge. Still no word on what happened to the guy who was running SR 2.0 who worked for SpaceX and was busted. I remember people peddling drugs on MindVox forums when Lord Digital ran it back in the day none of this is new except for Ulbricht trying to market his biz as a revolution. Online drug sales will continue regardless of this sentence.
- tptacek 11y agoNo part of the allegation that Ulbricht commissioned a murder appears to have been "thrown out"; that accusation was a formal predicate (the second listed "overt act") of the conspiracy charge for which he was convicted. Can someone help me understand why people keep suggesting that this murder-for-hire allegation was dropped? That does not at all seem to be the case.
- etchalon 11y agoIt's an inconvenient talking point for people who want to hold Ulbricht up as some type of hero. Painting over it is their only option.
- pakled_engineer 11y agoI didn't read the new indictment, I assumed from articles they dropped all those charges http://www.dailydot.com/crime/silk-road-murder-charges-ross-ulbricht/ http://www.dailydot.com/crime/silk-road-murder-charges-ross-... http://money.cnn.com/2015/05/29/technology/silk-road-ross-ulbricht-prison-sentence/ http://money.cnn.com/2015/05/29/technology/silk-road-ross-ul... "Prosecutors had charged Ulbricht with commissioning six murders-for-hire but those charges were dropped" The overt act is there in the new indictment they changed after dropping the 6 murder for hire charges, guess it's my fault for trusting journalists who said nothing about it http://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/usao-sdny/legacy/2015/03/25/US%20v.%20Ross%20Ulbricht%20Indictment.pdf http://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/usao-sdny/legacy/...
- lesigh 11y agoLet's just ruin a mans life so maybe we'll deter %.0000001 of a billion dollar drug industry. Why does the United States continue with this nonsense "War on Drugs"? Could it have anything to do with the for profit prison system? Giant militarized police force? Booming civil asset forfeiture? For a country that prides itself on freedom and fairness, why create a system that punishes for doing what they want with their body? What if we spent the billions we do now on a failed drug war for education, addiction treatment, mental health, job training? Why ban certain drugs and allow alcohol and cigarettes that have just as addictive properties and kills just as many people?
- toomuchtodo 11y ago"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." It's not right, its not fair, and until the judicial industrial complex (private prisons, police forces & civil forfeiture used for revenue instead of proper tax increases) is dismantled, we'll continue to see these sorts of travesties. We have a lot of cruft to cut from the US legal system.
- meaogj 11y agoSR sold drugs, yes. It also sold identity theft kits, credit card fraud kits, hacking tools, and other gear that is meant to harm others through coercion. Fuck Russ, and fuck you for repeating the lie that SR was nothing but drugs.
- mikeash 11y agoAnd more importantly, the guy tried to have people killed. This is not a good prompt for a "war on drugs is evil" rant. I sympathize with the position, but using somebody as an example of supposed injustice, when a big part of his punishment is because he hired hitmen (plural!), is not going to make your point look at all good.
- olefoo 11y ago"the guy tried to have people killed", allegedly. And the alleging being done by someone who is himself in quite a bit of legal trouble for stealing from Silk Road and embezzling bitcoin during the course of his official duties.
- fysac 11y agoThis has nothing to do with what he did. They're making an example of him.
- ygmelnikova 11y agoThe silent majority agrees with this sentence.
- mikeash 11y agoWhy would anyone disagree with this sentence, unless someone thinks having people killed is a normal part of business?
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- valar_m 11y agoBecause that's not what he was charged with?
- mikeash 11y agoYes, it was.
- valar_m 11y agoNo, it was not.
- mikeash 11y agoYes, it was: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9627200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9627200 Or if you want to go straight to the source, see item 10b on page 5 of: http://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/usao-sdny/legacy/2015/03/25/US%20v.%20Ross%20Ulbricht%20Indictment.pdf http://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/usao-sdny/legacy/... As far as I can tell, the only reason people are saying he wasn't convicted of murder for hire is because the top-level charge is "conspiracy" or somesuch, with "murder for hire" as one of the specific conspiracy items, and they haven't dug down.
- ygmelnikova 11y ago
- Hydraulix989 11y agoLet's not forget that this guy got the same sentence as the Boston Marathon bomber.
- tdicola 11y agoDzhokhar Tsarnaev was sentenced to the death penatly. Ross Ulbricht was sentenced to life in prison.
- emodendroket 11y agoLet's all not forget this totally bogus information.
- kidgorgeous 11y agoI wonder why people assume Ulbricht tried to have someone killed? History has proven time and time again that police and prosecutors will fabricate information to get a conviction or even get bail removed. I wouldn't put it past the prosecution and DEA to stoop to such low-handed tactics.
- emodendroket 11y agoThe best information available suggests that he actively solicited hitmen. Yes, I suppose if you take the position that "absolutely anything incriminating is fabricated" then you could claim he didn't.
- AC__ 11y agoThis is insanity! Life imprisonment for starting a website?!? Where are the "kingpin" charges for these guys http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=13889 http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=...
- sarciszewski 11y agoSad to see him get life, but I'm going to withhold my opinions beyond that statement because I know the feds will read this one day. Fuckers.
- FlaceBook 11y agoAfter reading comments here and on arstechnica, I'm terrified by the number of people who still seem to blindly trust our government and support the drug war. Another scary thing is how many people have "convicted" this guy of things that he was never convicted of, and used those things as a point from which to justify his sentence here.
- knieveltech 11y ago"We took risks, we knew we took them; things have come out against us, and therefore we have no cause for complaint..." - Robert Falcon Scott
- uptownJimmy 11y agoPerfect.
- beatpanda 11y agoRoss Ulbricht did more to civilize the drug trade, to prevent the violence and mayhem associated with dealing drugs, than any law.enforcement agency anywhere in the world ever has, and I can't wait for the day we finally abolish prisons and acknowledge this tragedy.
- ddxv 11y agoThis has made me feel so incredibly sad. Came to HN just to read the comments, I feel so much for him, I wish I could help him. I hope we can change the way our society punishes it's members.
- 6d0debc071 11y ago> Judge Forrest told Mr. Urlbricht that “what you did in connection with Silk Road was terribly destructive to our social fabric.” Certainly his actions were destructive to a social fabric, or elements thereof. However, I don't think that anyone of good sense takes too seriously the nightmarish visions of a total collapse of order that Forrest's words summon to mind if the site had been left to run. The alternatives do not reduce to the current structure of a fabric and no fabric at all. Nor does the charge itself make any particular sense, at least in terms of ideals to hold to. Progress is always built on the destruction, partial or total, of a previous way of life. Thus, when destruction becomes impossible, the liabilities that history places upon us, both in terms of mistakes and in terms of functions which no longer match the demands of life, come to dominate all attempts to adapt society to a more fitting form. The sentence is, at least on those grounds, a farce. Some social fabrics should be destroyed - that something better may take their place. I'm not going to advocate either way on whether that's the case here, but to imprison someone simply because they perform an act with such a function is to reduce yourself to a tyrant.
- j1vms 11y agoSentencing, based solely on creating/running the site, has more to do with the difficulty of finding, investigating and prosecuting these cases and therefore the value of harsh sentencing as a deterent to other current or would be offenders. Effect might perhaps be to drive others who are or want to do this stuff to operate from Russia or other harder to reach places. It might have been wiser to keep him operating and under long term surveillance, and as such indirectly control the beast he created.
- nthcolumn 11y agoNice show trial. The US justice system is a joke. Cops regularly murder unarmed citizens - nothing. The 'evidence' used to convict Mr Ulbricht should have been inadmissable as it was obtained illegally.
- latiera 11y agoExactly. Life without parole for running a fucking forum and selling some mushrooms. There is no justice in this country.
- neuro_imager 11y agoLike many commentators here, I am tremendously opposed to the prohibitionist approach to law-enforcement of any sort. One of the greatest tragedies of prohibition (and there are a multitude), is that it transfers so much money and other resources into the hands of existing criminal organisations. It also creates criminals as these profits incentivise illicit trade and legislates users as criminals. That being said, what Ulbricht was doing was clearly nefarious and the punishment should come as no surprise.
- eternalban 11y agoHe is a political prisoner.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- arbuge 11y agoAs an aside, since this is HN, I thought some portion of the audience here might be interested to know that the code for the Silk Road marketplace appears to have been in PHP, using CodeIgniter as the framework: http://www.wired.com/2015/01/heres-secret-silk-road-journal-laptop-ross-ulbricht/ http://www.wired.com/2015/01/heres-secret-silk-road-journal-... "In any case, I decided to rewrite the site in an mvc framework as suggested by my benevolent hacker adviser. So, while still manually processing transactions and responding to a bigger and bigger message load, I learned to use codeigniter and began rewriting the site."