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If the revenue generated from an act isn't enough to even qualify a passing mention on your tax return, I don't see how it could be considered commercial. It's

by Zikes 12y ago

If the revenue generated from an act isn't enough to even qualify a passing mention on your tax return, I don't see how it could be considered commercial. It's like if someone saw me pick up a quarter on the sidewalk and cited me for operating a business without a permit and being improperly zoned.

trhway 12y ago
>and cited me for operating a business without a permit and being improperly zoned. that wouldn't be that bad considering the alternative charge of say "money laundering" (if, say, you puff off some grains of sand from the quarter), "illegal deposit acceptance" or other money transfer/handling crimes.
- sitkack 12y ago
  What if an Arab buys the lemonade and is later charged with Terrorism, couldn't the girl with the lemonade stand be charged with material support? Isn't the parent responsible for the income taxes on income earned by minors?
DanBC 12y ago
> It's like if someone saw me pick up a quarter on the sidewalk and cited me for operating a business without a permit and being improperly zoned. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3171665 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3171665 http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/08/03/the-inexplicable-war-on-lemonade-stands/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/08/03/the-inexplic... > In Coralville, Iowa police shut down 4-year-old Abigail Krstinger’s lemonade stand after it had been up for half an hour. Dustin Krustinger told reporters that his daughter was selling lemonade at 25 cents a cup during the Register’s Annual Great Bicycle Race Across Iowa (or RAGBRAI), and couldn’t have made more than five dollars, adding “If the line is drawn to the point where a four-year-old eight blocks away can’t sell a couple glasses of lemonade for 25 cents, than I think the line has been drawn at the wrong spot.”
- Zikes 12y ago
  I think it's safe to say now that there are no remaining government institutions that have not jumped the proverbial shark.
  - Loughla 12y ago
    That's a nice line, but it's always more complicated than that. Do the actions of one town's government speak for the entire county, state, or country? Do the actions of the federal government speak for each state, county, or town?
    - shit_parade 12y ago
      When numerous examples can be found of abuse by government at the township, county, state, and federal levels what else can you say besides the parent comment? Is your defense the usual 'few bad apples' argument because at this point the orchard is rotten and crawling with worms. It would be humorous except non-government, non-corporate individuals have no way to redress grievances.
      - Loughla 12y ago
        You have several ways to address grievances. You can speak to your local representatives. Write to the local press. Contact your State and National Representatives, and then contact them again when a staffer takes your call the first time. Write letters, e-mails, radio ads, television interviews, poems, songs, plant trees in the shape of your own face, you can use the power of hate on 4chan or the hug of death from Reddit. You can protest, is what I'm saying. I'm not saying that a few bad apples spoil the bunch. What I said was that it isn't true that all parts of every government office are abusive. I implied that issues in Idaho's state government aren't the same as those in Miami's Precinct Alderman's offices, and those are different than those in Washington, D.C.
        shit_parade 12y ago
        Do you have a designated freespeech zone for me to use? Where shall I gather the money to run radio ads? You actually believe planting trees is a way to address grievances? My state and national representative will not care one iota for my opinion if it isn't attached to either A: a large check or B: a large constituency. I wrote there are numerous examples of government abuse on all levels, how is it then not true that every government office is abusive? Yes, perhaps this particular ranger in this particular state park is clean as a whistle -- in our orchard of rotten apples there are still a few good ones if you pick through the garbage.
Someone1234 12y ago
> If the revenue generated from an act isn't enough to even qualify a passing mention on your tax return, I don't see how it could be considered commercial. Is there such an amount? As far as I know all income is taxable, there is no "minimum amount per source." If you're talking more "real world" (e.g. pick up a quarter so fail to declare) then why would the FAA care at all about that? You cannot cite some fictional minimum income per source and then expect the FAA to adhere to it.
- Zikes 12y ago
  I'm 99% certain there is an amount, and much less certain that the amount is $5,000. Edit: Or $400. http://www.freelancetaxation.com/the-minimum-freelancers-need-to-earn-in-order-to-have-to-file-income-taxes http://www.freelancetaxation.com/the-minimum-freelancers-nee...
  - nostromo 12y ago
    That's 400 cumulative. So if you make $20,000 a year and find $1 on the street, you're supposed to declare that dollar. Another fun fact: if you crash at a friend's house for a few months without paying rent, you're supposed to count the amount you didn't pay in rent as gift income. I think it's safe to say that everyone that has filled their taxes has does something wrong. Sometimes it's not even clear to the IRS what a person should do.
    - balabaster 12y ago
      So how much didn't you pay in rent? That's like trying to explain how much money you didn't make this year and being taxed on it. I didn't make a billion dollars... do I get taxed for that?
      - Dylan16807 12y ago
        The obvious answer is fair market value, but now you have me wondering if you're supposed to pay for taxes on someone giving you a ride, even in a way where paying for that ride would be illegal...
ghaff 12y ago
With the caveat that I consider this a pretty ridiculous government action if the facts are as presented... Defining commerciality is difficult. It's one of the problems I have with the non-commercial variants of Creative Commons licenses. I have seen people on Flickr strongly object to NC photos being used on a blog with Adsense. And how about a large 501(c)(3) non-profit, perhaps one whose politics you disagree with? Take a broad enough view and very little is non-commercial.
- Zikes 12y ago
  Isn't it also outside of the FAA's jurisdiction to define commerciality?
  - waterlesscloud 12y ago
    They don't so much define commerciality as they define what doesn't qualify for a hobby use exemption to the rules. Here's their rules for model aircraft, with a section on what does and doesn't count as hobby use. http://www.faa.gov/uas/media/model_aircraft_spec_rule.pdf http://www.faa.gov/uas/media/model_aircraft_spec_rule.pdf
  - dublinben 12y ago
    Not as it relates to the purpose of a flight regulated under their jurisdiction. A pilot and plane only licensed for personal/hobbyist use would not be legal for commercial flight.

by Zikes 12y ago

trhway 12y ago

>and cited me for operating a business without a permit and being improperly zoned. that wouldn't be that bad considering the alternative charge of say "money laundering" (if, say, you puff off some grains of sand from the quarter), "illegal deposit acceptance" or other money transfer/handling crimes.

sitkack 12y ago
What if an Arab buys the lemonade and is later charged with Terrorism, couldn't the girl with the lemonade stand be charged with material support? Isn't the parent responsible for the income taxes on income earned by minors?

DanBC 12y ago

> It's like if someone saw me pick up a quarter on the sidewalk and cited me for operating a business without a permit and being improperly zoned. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3171665 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3171665 http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/08/03/the-inexplicable-war-on-lemonade-stands/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/08/03/the-inexplic... > In Coralville, Iowa police shut down 4-year-old Abigail Krstinger’s lemonade stand after it had been up for half an hour. Dustin Krustinger told reporters that his daughter was selling lemonade at 25 cents a cup during the Register’s Annual Great Bicycle Race Across Iowa (or RAGBRAI), and couldn’t have made more than five dollars, adding “If the line is drawn to the point where a four-year-old eight blocks away can’t sell a couple glasses of lemonade for 25 cents, than I think the line has been drawn at the wrong spot.”

Zikes 12y ago
I think it's safe to say now that there are no remaining government institutions that have not jumped the proverbial shark.
- Loughla 12y ago
  That's a nice line, but it's always more complicated than that. Do the actions of one town's government speak for the entire county, state, or country? Do the actions of the federal government speak for each state, county, or town?
  - shit_parade 12y ago
    When numerous examples can be found of abuse by government at the township, county, state, and federal levels what else can you say besides the parent comment? Is your defense the usual 'few bad apples' argument because at this point the orchard is rotten and crawling with worms. It would be humorous except non-government, non-corporate individuals have no way to redress grievances.
    - Loughla 12y ago
      You have several ways to address grievances. You can speak to your local representatives. Write to the local press. Contact your State and National Representatives, and then contact them again when a staffer takes your call the first time. Write letters, e-mails, radio ads, television interviews, poems, songs, plant trees in the shape of your own face, you can use the power of hate on 4chan or the hug of death from Reddit. You can protest, is what I'm saying. I'm not saying that a few bad apples spoil the bunch. What I said was that it isn't true that all parts of every government office are abusive. I implied that issues in Idaho's state government aren't the same as those in Miami's Precinct Alderman's offices, and those are different than those in Washington, D.C.
      - shit_parade 12y ago
        Do you have a designated freespeech zone for me to use? Where shall I gather the money to run radio ads? You actually believe planting trees is a way to address grievances? My state and national representative will not care one iota for my opinion if it isn't attached to either A: a large check or B: a large constituency. I wrote there are numerous examples of government abuse on all levels, how is it then not true that every government office is abusive? Yes, perhaps this particular ranger in this particular state park is clean as a whistle -- in our orchard of rotten apples there are still a few good ones if you pick through the garbage.

Someone1234 12y ago

> If the revenue generated from an act isn't enough to even qualify a passing mention on your tax return, I don't see how it could be considered commercial. Is there such an amount? As far as I know all income is taxable, there is no "minimum amount per source." If you're talking more "real world" (e.g. pick up a quarter so fail to declare) then why would the FAA care at all about that? You cannot cite some fictional minimum income per source and then expect the FAA to adhere to it.

Zikes 12y ago
I'm 99% certain there is an amount, and much less certain that the amount is $5,000. Edit: Or $400. http://www.freelancetaxation.com/the-minimum-freelancers-need-to-earn-in-order-to-have-to-file-income-taxes http://www.freelancetaxation.com/the-minimum-freelancers-nee...
- nostromo 12y ago
  That's 400 cumulative. So if you make $20,000 a year and find $1 on the street, you're supposed to declare that dollar. Another fun fact: if you crash at a friend's house for a few months without paying rent, you're supposed to count the amount you didn't pay in rent as gift income. I think it's safe to say that everyone that has filled their taxes has does something wrong. Sometimes it's not even clear to the IRS what a person should do.
  - balabaster 12y ago
    So how much didn't you pay in rent? That's like trying to explain how much money you didn't make this year and being taxed on it. I didn't make a billion dollars... do I get taxed for that?
    - Dylan16807 12y ago
      The obvious answer is fair market value, but now you have me wondering if you're supposed to pay for taxes on someone giving you a ride, even in a way where paying for that ride would be illegal...

ghaff 12y ago

With the caveat that I consider this a pretty ridiculous government action if the facts are as presented... Defining commerciality is difficult. It's one of the problems I have with the non-commercial variants of Creative Commons licenses. I have seen people on Flickr strongly object to NC photos being used on a blog with Adsense. And how about a large 501(c)(3) non-profit, perhaps one whose politics you disagree with? Take a broad enough view and very little is non-commercial.

Zikes 12y ago
Isn't it also outside of the FAA's jurisdiction to define commerciality?
- waterlesscloud 12y ago
  They don't so much define commerciality as they define what doesn't qualify for a hobby use exemption to the rules. Here's their rules for model aircraft, with a section on what does and doesn't count as hobby use. http://www.faa.gov/uas/media/model_aircraft_spec_rule.pdf http://www.faa.gov/uas/media/model_aircraft_spec_rule.pdf
- dublinben 12y ago
  Not as it relates to the purpose of a flight regulated under their jurisdiction. A pilot and plane only licensed for personal/hobbyist use would not be legal for commercial flight.