12 ms·

Disney's $1B Bet on a Magical Wristband

307 points by ghosh 12y ago

pitt1980 12y ago
the magic bands combined with smart watches make paying for things with your phone seem far more feasable you can pay for everything in the park with your magic band (I think you might have to stay in a disney resort for that to be the case) I'll admit, its really nice, I never take out my wallet if I can just have them scan my wrist
- pbhjpbhj 12y ago
  It would be interesting to see how revenues have increased due to band usage - the act of taking out your wallet or handing over cash or using a card act as a good barrier to excessive spending, making this mindless (just hold your hand near here) strikes me as a big win for Disney. Do Disney do the IAP trick of having their own "coins" to insulate from displaying proper prices too?
  - baggachipz 12y ago
    > Do Disney do the IAP trick of having their own "coins" to insulate from displaying proper prices too? Not when I was there last year. Lots of customers still don't use the bands, as they're for people staying on resort property only. So everyone else has to do things the Old Fashioned Way.
    - brixon 12y ago
      Annual pass holders get these too.
  - pitt1980 12y ago
    I was definately a little more mindless with my spending (to a lesser degree I'm that way with cards too)
jqueryin 12y ago
The idea of a "magical wristband" isn't much different than Great Wolf Lodge using their magical wands. Kids love it and it gets deep into their parents pockets. http://www.greatwolf.com/ http://www.greatwolf.com/
atwebb 12y ago
It reads kind of like a fluff/marketing piece but I'll be damned if it wasn't pretty seamless. I have no idea what it was like prior to the bands but the whole experience was clearly made a lot easier by them and the accompanying app (which is pretty solid). I needed my phone and my band, that was really it (well,...snacks, water bottles, strollers etc..) It was 85% well done, when you're actually scanning it can be a bear to get it just right, took a few days to get used to flipping my wrist around awkwardly and had a panic moment when one came off. 2 other things: 1) We didn't experience any of the location oriented deliveries/notifications, maybe they stopped or maybe we aren't special 2) That restaurant is very cool
- pbhjpbhj 12y ago
  >when you're actually scanning it can be a bear to get it just right // So it uses some sort of direct contact rather than NFC? [Perhaps to make it less easy to clone?]
  - atwebb 12y ago
    I can't definitively say that you MUST touch but you have to get very close, if not always touching. It also has to be oriented correctly (mouse ears up), there's not too much wiggle room on any of the readers (turnstile, room, handheld). I did assume it'd be a simple swipe but it's more, touch and hold for a second. Sometimes it's almost instantaneous, sometimes I had to take it off to get it to work right.
    - talmand 12y ago
      I don't see how orientation would matter. After the first day we realized if we wore the band a certain way then it was easier to flip the wrist to hold for a connection. The shape is kind of weird and hard to understand the proper way to wear it. I could have been wearing the wrong way from what was intended for all I know though.
  - GrantS 12y ago
    The direct contact for rides and purchases is there to prevent accidental activation -- you have thousands of people walking around with these bands in close proximity. In contrast, when pulling up to the gate at one of hotels, you just wave your wrist a foot away from the sensor out of your car window and it turns green and opens the gate -- no awkward stretching required.
rcaught 12y ago
> “If we can get out of the way, our guests can create more memories.” “If we can get out of the way, our guests can spend more money.” - FTFY.
- akerl_ 12y ago
  Both are true and valid. Making the process seamless benefits the company and the customer.
- wyldfire 12y ago
  My first reaction to the magicbands was pretty cynical, like this. But it's really astonishing how much more convenient and enjoyable it made the vacation. No need to slog a camera, wallet, etc. I was surprised that even the smallest out-of-the way Disney feature (Magic Express at the airport, entry into the resort pools, e.g.), they still had a way to scan the magic bands. If we did end up spending more because of it, it wasn't much more. And it might just be worth it.
  - fastball 12y ago
    Wait, how does the Magic Band replace a camera?
    - 300bps 12y ago
      It doesn't really. There are photographers throughout the park that will take your picture then scan your band. You can then buy said pictures.
      - talmand 12y ago
        Or as Wyldfire mentions elsewhere, you can get a prepay package that includes every single picture or video you happen to be in. Even the pictures for the rides are included and you don't even have to worry over it.
      - bentcorner 12y ago
        You don't need a band to use these photogs. When I was there in 2012 they gave me a card with a code on the back. I took a picture of it with my phone and stuck the card in my backpack. There's a disney site that hosts the photos for about a month, you create an account and add all the codes to your account. Then you can buy whatever pictures you want (or download the previews if you don't need the full res pictures). I brought my own camera - the pre-positioned photogs were nice to have (and had better equipment than me), but I still enjoyed being able to take my own pictures. Until Disney gets drones to take pictures for you on-demand, you are still going to want to bring a camera (smartphone or otherwise) to the park.
ehmuidifici 12y ago
That's the one of coolest things in Disney World and worth the extra money you'll pay for that (about US$ 14). It's really impressive how does it work and how it gets connected to other services, like restaurant reservations, 'fast-pass' and memory maker management.
- joezydeco 12y ago
  At the moment it's free if you stay on the property in one of the resorts. It also acts as your room key.
m4tthumphrey 12y ago
I went to Disneyland for the first time last year (so have no experience of it without bands) but the bands really are magical. They are so convenient and unobtrusive. There are several colours to choose from before you arrive at your hotel and you can even get your name engraved on them! As others have said, I never had to use my wallet once as the band is linked to your room which is linked to your credit card. It really is an ingenious piece of marketing tech. Kids love them too, as you can buy and collected little attachments which sit on the wristbands!
bradfa 12y ago
Inside the magic band are 3 radios: 13.56 MHz near field RFID (what's in your credit card's swipe to pay), 915 MHz passive UHF RFID (what's in your timing bib if you run a 5k race or what Walmart uses for inventory tracking), and a 2.4 GHz active radio. The following are my conjectures on how it works. I do not work for Disney or any contractor, but I do work in the field of RFID. The 13.56 MHz near field RFID is used for payment and entry to the park, and any other time Disney has you hold your band up to something for a transaction. It's near field, so the range is only a few centimeters, which is good for payments and when you want to ensure only one band is being interfaced with. This RFID consumes no battery power from within the band. The 915 MHz UHF RFID is used for positioning with shorter ranges but near instantaneously. For example, when you sit at a table, my guess is they are using this UHF RFID to find your location (an antenna at each table gives very good indication of who's at that table). Generally range on UHF RFID is a few meters, plenty to detect who's walking up to the dining location if they funnel you through a specific path (called portals in the industry). This is also likely the technology used to detect which car/boat you are in when they take your pictures on the rides. UHF RFID can acquire hundreds of tags per second and consumes no battery power from within the band, which is perfect for quickly detecting who's in range of a given antenna if they are only a few meters away. Finally, the 2.4 GHz radio. It's active so does consume battery power and the battery inside the bands are tiny, so it cannot be transmitting that often or the battery life would suck. Hence, I believe that the near field interactions reset a timer which runs for a few days to a week to enable the 2.4 GHz radio. Likely this radio transmits every minute or so. Disney do have receivers around the park for this 2.4 GHz radio system and I believe they only use it for detecting rough location of all visitors which is perfect to determine the lengths of lines at rides or to find where a lost kid is in the parks. Once the timer expires (if you've not interacted with any near field readers in a few days) then the 2.4 GHz radio stops until the next interaction. This is likely the only way to get such good battery life and how they can ship the thing to you weeks before you arrive. EDIT to add: That 2.4 GHz radio probably has a range of somewhere around 30 to 50 meters (possibly more). Some of their receiver stations are in the lights around the park (some with wired Ethernet others with wifi or other backhaul RF networking), others are little black boxes with 100BaseFX (fiber Ethernet for long runs like 1km). This is perfect for knowing crowd density in an area and estimating line lengths for outdoor areas (the UHF RFID could also be used for line length estimation in controlled or indoor areas). Probably they also have some 2.4 GHz receivers installed in the parade floats and vending carts (along with GPS to know where those items are) to collect data for location tracking. All in all, Disney are executing the wearables and RFID systems exactly as they are best envisioned. It's awesome! (if a bit scary)
emsy 12y ago
I remember that not too long ago, somone commented on HN that he basically pitched this idea to Disney but they declined and said the idea wasn't really good. I hope he shows up and tells us his story. edit: found it https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8839888 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8839888
- talmand 12y ago
  Was it a proper pitch or an unsolicited idea? If it was a proper pitch then I would agree. If it was unsolicited then I would imagine it was more like they already had the idea in the works and he took their generic, noncommittal, or whatever response as a sign they weren't interested in that particular use of the technology. Most companies are smart to not react to unsolicited ideas as to avoid being accused of stealing the idea if they had already thought of it. I wouldn't be surprised if Disney was simply waiting for the technology to catch up with the idea.
- koz1000 12y ago
  The idea has been around forever, probably from the moment someone figured out how to attach a unique ID to a radio transmitter. I pitched the idea myself (half-heartedly) fifteen years ago which puts me 7 years before this guy. And others commented with their prior art. http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Theme_20Park_20Leash#1063990800 http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Theme_20Park_20Leash#10639908...
  - maxerickson 12y ago
    Yeah, here's a company saying an amusement park was using their RFID wristbands in 2006: http://www.wristband-rfid.com/en/amusement_parks.html http://www.wristband-rfid.com/en/amusement_parks.html Here's a 2004 article about using them in Legoland: http://www.networkworld.com/article/2332669/network-security/legoland-uses-rfid-for-finding-lost-kids.html http://www.networkworld.com/article/2332669/network-security...
- drzaiusapelord 12y ago
  Reminds me of people who send scripts to sitcoms then complain they've been "ripped off" when a similar storyline emerges. Considering there are something like 6 or 7 unique sitcom plots and only so many possible pairings, its pretty obvious that "invention" here is non-existent. Oh you also wanted Rachel and Ross to get together? You don't say. We've probably been talking about RFID as people tracker for almost 20 years. Personally, I'm really getting sick of the whole "they stole my idea" bullshit from young entrepreneurs. You aren't as clever as you think.
VikingCoder 12y ago
1) You still can't see how many frickin days you have left in the parks when you're at home. Are you kidding me? 2) Joining groups, and saying who can reserve for whom is still a pain. It probably works GREAT for 98% of people, but we got screwed on three different trips. 3) The way they track photos is great for small parties, but it's a pain for groups that get together, split up, get together, split up, form with another group of people for a few days, split up, etc. 4) Doesn't work on the cruise ships yet. It'll be great when it does. 5) You can book three rides. When you're done with the third one, you can book another one. When you're done with that, you can book another, etc. They don't make this well-known, so we ended up with just 3 rides per day. Could have done more. 6) My wife and I have different reasons to be in the parks, at different times of the year. But we can't have a POOL of park tickets. Nope, you have to pre-allocate the tickets to each band. That sucks. Either that, or let me move tickets between our bands however we want.
- nemo 12y ago
  The bands are nice for people who go casually, maybe once a year at most. People who are really into the parks or go more often feel the weak spots more. The old FastPass system was far better for those who knew how to work it, we used to be able to do FastPass for most of the day and never be in a line for more than 20 minutes, though the new system makes the system more apparent to everyone.
- kissickas 12y ago
  I wish I had known that it was possible to book more than three fastpasses per day. Thanks for the heads up. I also had a less-than-stellar time getting into my hotel room with the band. I expected it to be very forgiving and ended up banging my hand against the door at different angles before I got in. Another complaint is the fit of the wristband. I imagine it will get better as the technology miniaturizes, but it was uncomfortable enough that I wanted to take it off constantly, which is obviously counterproductive. Overall though, I think they're great. No more hassling with small paper tickets and a unified system for basically every old system you can think of.
smoyer 12y ago
I always wanted my kids to have a wristband that's tied to my credit card - good thing there's nothing they'd want at Disney World! Sarcasm aside, we always get a big wad of cash when we go on vacation (and especially to Disney World). It's almost impossible to track your spending if you follow the normal pattern of pulling out your credit card ... this wrist band (in my mind) is to make sure you don't realize what you're spending.
- timf 12y ago
  Only adults have charging privileges and even then you need a PIN (that the cardholder does not need to share).
  - oh_sigh 12y ago
    It would be cool if you could get a text message for the charge amount(if it was over some set limit), location, and possibly itemized bill(since disney does control every system after all), and respond yes or no to allow or deny the transaction.
    - joezydeco 12y ago
      That's not really a Disney-type move since a) it would slow lines down as kids wait for approval and b) would result in a lot of unhappy kids whenever a charge is denied.
    - bhandziuk 12y ago
      There are a few non-Disney services in Disney. Not many though. Stuff like Starbucks are not directly tied to Disney.
    - kalleboo 12y ago
      Which of course Apple already does for in-app purchases in iOS family accounts...
- joezydeco 12y ago
  That's absolutely a goal of this program: increase per-visitor spending. Making purchases as frictionless as possible pretty much guarantees that the average will rise. Even the whole FastPass+ idea is meant to keep visitors out of the lines and on the move, which gives them more opportunities to spend money. It was seriously depressing on my last visit to MK/Epcot about how every single open space in the park is now filled with a kiosk or stand selling some type of souvenir or snack.
aros 12y ago
Sounds like a good way to get people to spend more money, that's for sure.
mbrock 12y ago
Neal Stephenson wrote about Disney in "In the Beginning was the Command Line": "Americans' preference for mediated experiences is obvious enough, and I'm not going to keep pounding it into the ground. I'm not even going to make snotty comments about it--after all, I was at Disney World as a paying customer. But it clearly relates to the colossal success of GUIs and so I have to talk about it some. Disney does mediated experiences better than anyone. If they understood what OSes are, and why people use them, they could crush Microsoft in a year or two. [...] "As I've explained, selling OSes for money is a basically untenable position, and the only way Apple and Microsoft can get away with it is by pursuing technological advancements as aggressively as they can, and by getting people to believe in, and to pay for, a particular image: in the case of Apple, that of the creative free thinker, and in the case of Microsoft, that of the respectable techno-bourgeois. Just like Disney, they're making money from selling an interface, a magic mirror. It has to be polished and seamless or else the whole illusion is ruined and the business plan vanishes like a mirage." There's quite a bit more about Disney in the essay. If you haven't read it in a while, check it out, it's a pretty good read!
- madaxe_again 12y ago
  It's a brilliant read, never mind pretty good! I think Stephenson has his finger pretty firmly on the pulse, when it comes to understanding the role and impact of technology in society.
  - andrewparker 12y ago
    Stephenson considers much of his position in "In The Beginning..." to be out of date at this point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Beginning..._Was_the_Command_Line#Later_developments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Beginning..._Was_the_Com...
- theandrewbailey 12y ago
  link: http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html The metaphorical comparison between the operating systems is one I'll never forget.
strictnein 12y ago
None of the content is online, but in either the winter or fall 2600 there's a pretty decent tear down / analysis of the wristband.
- sp332 12y ago
  Winter 2014, it's $6 on Amazon Kindle. http://smile.amazon.com/2600-Magazine-Hacker-Quarterly-2014-2015-ebook/dp/B00RTKOPZU/ http://smile.amazon.com/2600-Magazine-Hacker-Quarterly-2014-... The article is called "Recon on Disney's Magic Band."
  - strictnein 12y ago
    Yep, thanks, that was it.
Eye_of_Mordor 12y ago
Nothing to hide, nothing to fear kids :-)
pcunite 12y ago
Quote: "If Disney decides to install those sensors throughout the park, a new world of data opens up. They could have Mickey and Snow White find you. They might use the park’s myriad cameras to capture candid moments of your family—enjoying rides, meeting Snow White—and stitch them together into a personalized film." The governments of the world would like this, no?
- Brakenshire 12y ago
  One of the joys of the internet economy is that citizens fund the development of the surveillance state (or at least the technology necessary for it) through their own private-sector consumer purchases.
bhandziuk 12y ago
One difficulty with the bands is that, unlike a regular hotel with a magnetic (or even RFID) wallet sized card, this needs to be placed on your wrist every morning. I've needed several replacement Magic Bands because I am used to walking out of my house/hotel room and just checking for my wallet, cell, keys and knowing I'm good. Usually a hotel card would be in my wallet and it is not an additional check. They are free to replace so it's not too big of a deal.
- unreal37 12y ago
  I don't understand. You leave the magic band in your hotel room and need to have it replaced? Why not go back into the hotel room and retrieve the original?
  - kbutler 12y ago
    Because hotel room is probably 30-90 minutes away when you discover you left the wristband behind.
  - bhandziuk 12y ago
    The hotel room being far away is one issue. Also, only so many people are authorized to let you back into your room. If that person is not available it can be a long wait and even if you are at the front desk of the hotel the room might be a 10 minute walk from there so the front desk person can't leave to walk you over there. A new band is often faster.
- anigbrowl 12y ago
  Don't worry, we'll soon have ones that you never lose because you can't take them off.
tidon12 12y ago
Love this quote: "It took one engineer six months to get the tear-away channel just right: It had to be easy to tear, but it couldn’t inadvertently come apart. Meanwhile, the readers had to be intuitive enough for people to instantly know how to use them" It's amazing the kind of effort true product excellence really takes.
bnycum 12y ago
I recently got back from my second trip to Disney World in which I had a Magic Band, the first time it was still test phase and had lots of kinks. This time around it worked flawlessly. To get into the park it requires you to scan your fingerprint as well, to buy anything with a credit card linked to your account or use your dining plan requires your pin number. Other than that it's pretty much tap and go. The crazy part about the band that scares me is how much you are tracked because of it. After getting back we noticed we had Photo Pass photos, you know the photos after you get off the ride you used to buy. Now these photos are all digital and online, normally requiring you to tap your band at the end of the ride. Well they were just loaded onto our account, we never even scanned our bands for these rides or anything. At the resorts you can buy a refillable mug, or you are given one on the dining plan. This refillable mug has an RFID chip in them, same with the paper cups. You must place your mug/cup on the sensor below your drink option in order for it to be read and dispense your drink. You can only get so much dispensed in a certain amount of time, or it will just stop dispensing. I also believe they had or used to have a limit per day on refills, I never hit it. Not to mention their "free" Wi-Fi that they highly promote. I'm curious what all is going on behind the scene and how much is being used. Because they obviously now are tracking what I drink, where I stay, how much money I spend, where I am in the park, what rides I go on, etc.
- scott_karana 12y ago
  Wait, they fingerprint you?! Wow. Is that part opt-out at all?
  - quandrum 12y ago
    Yes, you can opt out of going to Disneyworld.
    - blake8086 12y ago
      But what if you feel entitled to go?
  - bnycum 12y ago
    Not that I'm aware of, I didn't try. They haven't requested my daughter scan her fingerprint at ages 2 or 3, don't know what age that starts at though. During the testing phase the finger print wouldn't always work 100% of the time, they'd get someone over with basically a tablet with an RFID scanner to let you in.
annapurna 12y ago
So soon we forget about this last discussion "Ai Weiwei Is Living in Our Future" : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8824691 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8824691
shashu10 12y ago
Oh man I want to be a kid five years from now.
boothead 12y ago
Isn't this really a bet on turning all of your data into streams and moving to do everything in real time? If it is, I whole heartedly agree!
adnam 12y ago
"Be Our Guest, here's your food tray". They spent all this time, effort and money on technology but give people a tray to eat off. Why not just put bowls on the floor FFS.
- to3m 12y ago
  Ha! Well spotted. I think they're just rectangular lipped plates, though.
will_brown 12y ago
I wrote on HN about patenting a "reusable RFID wristband" and attempting to work something out with Disney in ~2007.[1] The response on HN was fairly predictable...I am a patent troll. Though I think this sheds light on the reality that it takes a lot of money to bring certain products to market and this is why, in certain instances, patents can be useful to the little guys who in some instances can not practically bring a product to market (I don't own my own theme park, ski resort, ect...). [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8838362 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8838362 Edit: At the time of filing, the only existing patent was for a "single use RFID hospital bands" which was made to be disabled when removed and non-reusable (similar to existing non-RFID hospital bands).
- digikata 12y ago
  The band is just the ID device, the real value is how & when that ID process happens and gets wrapped organically into many different processes in the park - and that's not something that a small inventor would likely have the context to correctly wrap around just the hardware. Nor does it seem like something the original patent would be general enough to exclude. The article mentions a $1B investment. I would think the band and reader hardware are the smallest part of that investment with the bulk of it in the how to apply the information in developing new park-specific processes and retraining employees.
  - will_brown 12y ago
    >the real value is how & when that ID process happens and gets wrapped organically into many different processes in the park I think I agree with your point, but to rephrase I say the real value (for theme parks and resorts) would be easing the ability for patrons to make payments, purchasing data, the ability to track/locate patrons (lost kids, people injured in ski resorts, ect...), and the general logistical improvements of operations (being able to see what seats/rides are open, the exact number of people in line, redirecting people to other areas of the park, ect...). This is all very basic data available in most existing RFID software packages.
Animats 12y ago
I wonder how aggressively they mine the tracking information in real time. It would not be hard to recognize both "child separated from parents" and "parent movement matches search-like behavior", for example. How did they spend a billion dollars on this system, though?
Shivetya 12y ago
so they could be modified to monitor the health of their customers and wouldn't that be amazing. If someone is experiencing a life threatening situation employees could move in and discretely do a visual check and if confirmed react so much faster.
jeeshan 12y ago
As a doctor, the first thing that popped into my mind when reading this is how transformative this would be in the hospital for both patients and providers. Hospitals are mazes for patients and there are so many obvious ways to improve the experience. But as a provider, moving from transactions to moments with patients would reinvigorate the practice. "The goal was to create a system that would essentially replace the time spent fiddling with payments and tickets for moments of personal interactions with visitors. The MagicBands and MyMagicPlus allow employees to “move past transactions, into an interactive space, where they can personalize the experience,”

307 points by ghosh 12y ago

pitt1980 12y ago

the magic bands combined with smart watches make paying for things with your phone seem far more feasable you can pay for everything in the park with your magic band (I think you might have to stay in a disney resort for that to be the case) I'll admit, its really nice, I never take out my wallet if I can just have them scan my wrist

pbhjpbhj 12y ago
It would be interesting to see how revenues have increased due to band usage - the act of taking out your wallet or handing over cash or using a card act as a good barrier to excessive spending, making this mindless (just hold your hand near here) strikes me as a big win for Disney. Do Disney do the IAP trick of having their own "coins" to insulate from displaying proper prices too?
- baggachipz 12y ago
  > Do Disney do the IAP trick of having their own "coins" to insulate from displaying proper prices too? Not when I was there last year. Lots of customers still don't use the bands, as they're for people staying on resort property only. So everyone else has to do things the Old Fashioned Way.
  - brixon 12y ago
    Annual pass holders get these too.
- pitt1980 12y ago
  I was definately a little more mindless with my spending (to a lesser degree I'm that way with cards too)

jqueryin 12y ago

The idea of a "magical wristband" isn't much different than Great Wolf Lodge using their magical wands. Kids love it and it gets deep into their parents pockets. http://www.greatwolf.com/ http://www.greatwolf.com/

atwebb 12y ago

It reads kind of like a fluff/marketing piece but I'll be damned if it wasn't pretty seamless. I have no idea what it was like prior to the bands but the whole experience was clearly made a lot easier by them and the accompanying app (which is pretty solid). I needed my phone and my band, that was really it (well,...snacks, water bottles, strollers etc..) It was 85% well done, when you're actually scanning it can be a bear to get it just right, took a few days to get used to flipping my wrist around awkwardly and had a panic moment when one came off. 2 other things: 1) We didn't experience any of the location oriented deliveries/notifications, maybe they stopped or maybe we aren't special 2) That restaurant is very cool

pbhjpbhj 12y ago
>when you're actually scanning it can be a bear to get it just right // So it uses some sort of direct contact rather than NFC? [Perhaps to make it less easy to clone?]
- atwebb 12y ago
  I can't definitively say that you MUST touch but you have to get very close, if not always touching. It also has to be oriented correctly (mouse ears up), there's not too much wiggle room on any of the readers (turnstile, room, handheld). I did assume it'd be a simple swipe but it's more, touch and hold for a second. Sometimes it's almost instantaneous, sometimes I had to take it off to get it to work right.
  - talmand 12y ago
    I don't see how orientation would matter. After the first day we realized if we wore the band a certain way then it was easier to flip the wrist to hold for a connection. The shape is kind of weird and hard to understand the proper way to wear it. I could have been wearing the wrong way from what was intended for all I know though.
- GrantS 12y ago
  The direct contact for rides and purchases is there to prevent accidental activation -- you have thousands of people walking around with these bands in close proximity. In contrast, when pulling up to the gate at one of hotels, you just wave your wrist a foot away from the sensor out of your car window and it turns green and opens the gate -- no awkward stretching required.

rcaught 12y ago

> “If we can get out of the way, our guests can create more memories.” “If we can get out of the way, our guests can spend more money.” - FTFY.

akerl_ 12y ago
Both are true and valid. Making the process seamless benefits the company and the customer.
wyldfire 12y ago
My first reaction to the magicbands was pretty cynical, like this. But it's really astonishing how much more convenient and enjoyable it made the vacation. No need to slog a camera, wallet, etc. I was surprised that even the smallest out-of-the way Disney feature (Magic Express at the airport, entry into the resort pools, e.g.), they still had a way to scan the magic bands. If we did end up spending more because of it, it wasn't much more. And it might just be worth it.
- fastball 12y ago
  Wait, how does the Magic Band replace a camera?
  - 300bps 12y ago
    It doesn't really. There are photographers throughout the park that will take your picture then scan your band. You can then buy said pictures.
    - talmand 12y ago
      Or as Wyldfire mentions elsewhere, you can get a prepay package that includes every single picture or video you happen to be in. Even the pictures for the rides are included and you don't even have to worry over it.
    - bentcorner 12y ago
      You don't need a band to use these photogs. When I was there in 2012 they gave me a card with a code on the back. I took a picture of it with my phone and stuck the card in my backpack. There's a disney site that hosts the photos for about a month, you create an account and add all the codes to your account. Then you can buy whatever pictures you want (or download the previews if you don't need the full res pictures). I brought my own camera - the pre-positioned photogs were nice to have (and had better equipment than me), but I still enjoyed being able to take my own pictures. Until Disney gets drones to take pictures for you on-demand, you are still going to want to bring a camera (smartphone or otherwise) to the park.

ehmuidifici 12y ago

That's the one of coolest things in Disney World and worth the extra money you'll pay for that (about US$ 14). It's really impressive how does it work and how it gets connected to other services, like restaurant reservations, 'fast-pass' and memory maker management.

joezydeco 12y ago
At the moment it's free if you stay on the property in one of the resorts. It also acts as your room key.

m4tthumphrey 12y ago

I went to Disneyland for the first time last year (so have no experience of it without bands) but the bands really are magical. They are so convenient and unobtrusive. There are several colours to choose from before you arrive at your hotel and you can even get your name engraved on them! As others have said, I never had to use my wallet once as the band is linked to your room which is linked to your credit card. It really is an ingenious piece of marketing tech. Kids love them too, as you can buy and collected little attachments which sit on the wristbands!

bradfa 12y ago

Inside the magic band are 3 radios: 13.56 MHz near field RFID (what's in your credit card's swipe to pay), 915 MHz passive UHF RFID (what's in your timing bib if you run a 5k race or what Walmart uses for inventory tracking), and a 2.4 GHz active radio. The following are my conjectures on how it works. I do not work for Disney or any contractor, but I do work in the field of RFID. The 13.56 MHz near field RFID is used for payment and entry to the park, and any other time Disney has you hold your band up to something for a transaction. It's near field, so the range is only a few centimeters, which is good for payments and when you want to ensure only one band is being interfaced with. This RFID consumes no battery power from within the band. The 915 MHz UHF RFID is used for positioning with shorter ranges but near instantaneously. For example, when you sit at a table, my guess is they are using this UHF RFID to find your location (an antenna at each table gives very good indication of who's at that table). Generally range on UHF RFID is a few meters, plenty to detect who's walking up to the dining location if they funnel you through a specific path (called portals in the industry). This is also likely the technology used to detect which car/boat you are in when they take your pictures on the rides. UHF RFID can acquire hundreds of tags per second and consumes no battery power from within the band, which is perfect for quickly detecting who's in range of a given antenna if they are only a few meters away. Finally, the 2.4 GHz radio. It's active so does consume battery power and the battery inside the bands are tiny, so it cannot be transmitting that often or the battery life would suck. Hence, I believe that the near field interactions reset a timer which runs for a few days to a week to enable the 2.4 GHz radio. Likely this radio transmits every minute or so. Disney do have receivers around the park for this 2.4 GHz radio system and I believe they only use it for detecting rough location of all visitors which is perfect to determine the lengths of lines at rides or to find where a lost kid is in the parks. Once the timer expires (if you've not interacted with any near field readers in a few days) then the 2.4 GHz radio stops until the next interaction. This is likely the only way to get such good battery life and how they can ship the thing to you weeks before you arrive. EDIT to add: That 2.4 GHz radio probably has a range of somewhere around 30 to 50 meters (possibly more). Some of their receiver stations are in the lights around the park (some with wired Ethernet others with wifi or other backhaul RF networking), others are little black boxes with 100BaseFX (fiber Ethernet for long runs like 1km). This is perfect for knowing crowd density in an area and estimating line lengths for outdoor areas (the UHF RFID could also be used for line length estimation in controlled or indoor areas). Probably they also have some 2.4 GHz receivers installed in the parade floats and vending carts (along with GPS to know where those items are) to collect data for location tracking. All in all, Disney are executing the wearables and RFID systems exactly as they are best envisioned. It's awesome! (if a bit scary)

emsy 12y ago

I remember that not too long ago, somone commented on HN that he basically pitched this idea to Disney but they declined and said the idea wasn't really good. I hope he shows up and tells us his story. edit: found it https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8839888 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8839888

talmand 12y ago
Was it a proper pitch or an unsolicited idea? If it was a proper pitch then I would agree. If it was unsolicited then I would imagine it was more like they already had the idea in the works and he took their generic, noncommittal, or whatever response as a sign they weren't interested in that particular use of the technology. Most companies are smart to not react to unsolicited ideas as to avoid being accused of stealing the idea if they had already thought of it. I wouldn't be surprised if Disney was simply waiting for the technology to catch up with the idea.
koz1000 12y ago
The idea has been around forever, probably from the moment someone figured out how to attach a unique ID to a radio transmitter. I pitched the idea myself (half-heartedly) fifteen years ago which puts me 7 years before this guy. And others commented with their prior art. http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Theme_20Park_20Leash#1063990800 http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Theme_20Park_20Leash#10639908...
- maxerickson 12y ago
  Yeah, here's a company saying an amusement park was using their RFID wristbands in 2006: http://www.wristband-rfid.com/en/amusement_parks.html http://www.wristband-rfid.com/en/amusement_parks.html Here's a 2004 article about using them in Legoland: http://www.networkworld.com/article/2332669/network-security/legoland-uses-rfid-for-finding-lost-kids.html http://www.networkworld.com/article/2332669/network-security...
drzaiusapelord 12y ago
Reminds me of people who send scripts to sitcoms then complain they've been "ripped off" when a similar storyline emerges. Considering there are something like 6 or 7 unique sitcom plots and only so many possible pairings, its pretty obvious that "invention" here is non-existent. Oh you also wanted Rachel and Ross to get together? You don't say. We've probably been talking about RFID as people tracker for almost 20 years. Personally, I'm really getting sick of the whole "they stole my idea" bullshit from young entrepreneurs. You aren't as clever as you think.

VikingCoder 12y ago

1) You still can't see how many frickin days you have left in the parks when you're at home. Are you kidding me? 2) Joining groups, and saying who can reserve for whom is still a pain. It probably works GREAT for 98% of people, but we got screwed on three different trips. 3) The way they track photos is great for small parties, but it's a pain for groups that get together, split up, get together, split up, form with another group of people for a few days, split up, etc. 4) Doesn't work on the cruise ships yet. It'll be great when it does. 5) You can book three rides. When you're done with the third one, you can book another one. When you're done with that, you can book another, etc. They don't make this well-known, so we ended up with just 3 rides per day. Could have done more. 6) My wife and I have different reasons to be in the parks, at different times of the year. But we can't have a POOL of park tickets. Nope, you have to pre-allocate the tickets to each band. That sucks. Either that, or let me move tickets between our bands however we want.

nemo 12y ago
The bands are nice for people who go casually, maybe once a year at most. People who are really into the parks or go more often feel the weak spots more. The old FastPass system was far better for those who knew how to work it, we used to be able to do FastPass for most of the day and never be in a line for more than 20 minutes, though the new system makes the system more apparent to everyone.
kissickas 12y ago
I wish I had known that it was possible to book more than three fastpasses per day. Thanks for the heads up. I also had a less-than-stellar time getting into my hotel room with the band. I expected it to be very forgiving and ended up banging my hand against the door at different angles before I got in. Another complaint is the fit of the wristband. I imagine it will get better as the technology miniaturizes, but it was uncomfortable enough that I wanted to take it off constantly, which is obviously counterproductive. Overall though, I think they're great. No more hassling with small paper tickets and a unified system for basically every old system you can think of.

smoyer 12y ago

I always wanted my kids to have a wristband that's tied to my credit card - good thing there's nothing they'd want at Disney World! Sarcasm aside, we always get a big wad of cash when we go on vacation (and especially to Disney World). It's almost impossible to track your spending if you follow the normal pattern of pulling out your credit card ... this wrist band (in my mind) is to make sure you don't realize what you're spending.

timf 12y ago
Only adults have charging privileges and even then you need a PIN (that the cardholder does not need to share).
- oh_sigh 12y ago
  It would be cool if you could get a text message for the charge amount(if it was over some set limit), location, and possibly itemized bill(since disney does control every system after all), and respond yes or no to allow or deny the transaction.
  - joezydeco 12y ago
    That's not really a Disney-type move since a) it would slow lines down as kids wait for approval and b) would result in a lot of unhappy kids whenever a charge is denied.
  - bhandziuk 12y ago
    There are a few non-Disney services in Disney. Not many though. Stuff like Starbucks are not directly tied to Disney.
  - kalleboo 12y ago
    Which of course Apple already does for in-app purchases in iOS family accounts...
joezydeco 12y ago
That's absolutely a goal of this program: increase per-visitor spending. Making purchases as frictionless as possible pretty much guarantees that the average will rise. Even the whole FastPass+ idea is meant to keep visitors out of the lines and on the move, which gives them more opportunities to spend money. It was seriously depressing on my last visit to MK/Epcot about how every single open space in the park is now filled with a kiosk or stand selling some type of souvenir or snack.

aros 12y ago

Sounds like a good way to get people to spend more money, that's for sure.

mbrock 12y ago

Neal Stephenson wrote about Disney in "In the Beginning was the Command Line": "Americans' preference for mediated experiences is obvious enough, and I'm not going to keep pounding it into the ground. I'm not even going to make snotty comments about it--after all, I was at Disney World as a paying customer. But it clearly relates to the colossal success of GUIs and so I have to talk about it some. Disney does mediated experiences better than anyone. If they understood what OSes are, and why people use them, they could crush Microsoft in a year or two. [...] "As I've explained, selling OSes for money is a basically untenable position, and the only way Apple and Microsoft can get away with it is by pursuing technological advancements as aggressively as they can, and by getting people to believe in, and to pay for, a particular image: in the case of Apple, that of the creative free thinker, and in the case of Microsoft, that of the respectable techno-bourgeois. Just like Disney, they're making money from selling an interface, a magic mirror. It has to be polished and seamless or else the whole illusion is ruined and the business plan vanishes like a mirage." There's quite a bit more about Disney in the essay. If you haven't read it in a while, check it out, it's a pretty good read!

madaxe_again 12y ago
It's a brilliant read, never mind pretty good! I think Stephenson has his finger pretty firmly on the pulse, when it comes to understanding the role and impact of technology in society.
- andrewparker 12y ago
  Stephenson considers much of his position in "In The Beginning..." to be out of date at this point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Beginning..._Was_the_Command_Line#Later_developments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Beginning..._Was_the_Com...
theandrewbailey 12y ago
link: http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html The metaphorical comparison between the operating systems is one I'll never forget.

strictnein 12y ago

None of the content is online, but in either the winter or fall 2600 there's a pretty decent tear down / analysis of the wristband.

sp332 12y ago
Winter 2014, it's $6 on Amazon Kindle. http://smile.amazon.com/2600-Magazine-Hacker-Quarterly-2014-2015-ebook/dp/B00RTKOPZU/ http://smile.amazon.com/2600-Magazine-Hacker-Quarterly-2014-... The article is called "Recon on Disney's Magic Band."
- strictnein 12y ago
  Yep, thanks, that was it.

Eye_of_Mordor 12y ago

Nothing to hide, nothing to fear kids :-)

pcunite 12y ago

Quote: "If Disney decides to install those sensors throughout the park, a new world of data opens up. They could have Mickey and Snow White find you. They might use the park’s myriad cameras to capture candid moments of your family—enjoying rides, meeting Snow White—and stitch them together into a personalized film." The governments of the world would like this, no?

Brakenshire 12y ago
One of the joys of the internet economy is that citizens fund the development of the surveillance state (or at least the technology necessary for it) through their own private-sector consumer purchases.

bhandziuk 12y ago

One difficulty with the bands is that, unlike a regular hotel with a magnetic (or even RFID) wallet sized card, this needs to be placed on your wrist every morning. I've needed several replacement Magic Bands because I am used to walking out of my house/hotel room and just checking for my wallet, cell, keys and knowing I'm good. Usually a hotel card would be in my wallet and it is not an additional check. They are free to replace so it's not too big of a deal.

unreal37 12y ago
I don't understand. You leave the magic band in your hotel room and need to have it replaced? Why not go back into the hotel room and retrieve the original?
- kbutler 12y ago
  Because hotel room is probably 30-90 minutes away when you discover you left the wristband behind.
- bhandziuk 12y ago
  The hotel room being far away is one issue. Also, only so many people are authorized to let you back into your room. If that person is not available it can be a long wait and even if you are at the front desk of the hotel the room might be a 10 minute walk from there so the front desk person can't leave to walk you over there. A new band is often faster.
anigbrowl 12y ago
Don't worry, we'll soon have ones that you never lose because you can't take them off.

tidon12 12y ago

Love this quote: "It took one engineer six months to get the tear-away channel just right: It had to be easy to tear, but it couldn’t inadvertently come apart. Meanwhile, the readers had to be intuitive enough for people to instantly know how to use them" It's amazing the kind of effort true product excellence really takes.

bnycum 12y ago

I recently got back from my second trip to Disney World in which I had a Magic Band, the first time it was still test phase and had lots of kinks. This time around it worked flawlessly. To get into the park it requires you to scan your fingerprint as well, to buy anything with a credit card linked to your account or use your dining plan requires your pin number. Other than that it's pretty much tap and go. The crazy part about the band that scares me is how much you are tracked because of it. After getting back we noticed we had Photo Pass photos, you know the photos after you get off the ride you used to buy. Now these photos are all digital and online, normally requiring you to tap your band at the end of the ride. Well they were just loaded onto our account, we never even scanned our bands for these rides or anything. At the resorts you can buy a refillable mug, or you are given one on the dining plan. This refillable mug has an RFID chip in them, same with the paper cups. You must place your mug/cup on the sensor below your drink option in order for it to be read and dispense your drink. You can only get so much dispensed in a certain amount of time, or it will just stop dispensing. I also believe they had or used to have a limit per day on refills, I never hit it. Not to mention their "free" Wi-Fi that they highly promote. I'm curious what all is going on behind the scene and how much is being used. Because they obviously now are tracking what I drink, where I stay, how much money I spend, where I am in the park, what rides I go on, etc.

scott_karana 12y ago
Wait, they fingerprint you?! Wow. Is that part opt-out at all?
- quandrum 12y ago
  Yes, you can opt out of going to Disneyworld.
  - blake8086 12y ago
    But what if you feel entitled to go?
- bnycum 12y ago
  Not that I'm aware of, I didn't try. They haven't requested my daughter scan her fingerprint at ages 2 or 3, don't know what age that starts at though. During the testing phase the finger print wouldn't always work 100% of the time, they'd get someone over with basically a tablet with an RFID scanner to let you in.

annapurna 12y ago

So soon we forget about this last discussion "Ai Weiwei Is Living in Our Future" : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8824691 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8824691

shashu10 12y ago

Oh man I want to be a kid five years from now.

boothead 12y ago

Isn't this really a bet on turning all of your data into streams and moving to do everything in real time? If it is, I whole heartedly agree!

adnam 12y ago

"Be Our Guest, here's your food tray". They spent all this time, effort and money on technology but give people a tray to eat off. Why not just put bowls on the floor FFS.

to3m 12y ago
Ha! Well spotted. I think they're just rectangular lipped plates, though.

will_brown 12y ago

I wrote on HN about patenting a "reusable RFID wristband" and attempting to work something out with Disney in ~2007.[1] The response on HN was fairly predictable...I am a patent troll. Though I think this sheds light on the reality that it takes a lot of money to bring certain products to market and this is why, in certain instances, patents can be useful to the little guys who in some instances can not practically bring a product to market (I don't own my own theme park, ski resort, ect...). [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8838362 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8838362 Edit: At the time of filing, the only existing patent was for a "single use RFID hospital bands" which was made to be disabled when removed and non-reusable (similar to existing non-RFID hospital bands).

digikata 12y ago
The band is just the ID device, the real value is how & when that ID process happens and gets wrapped organically into many different processes in the park - and that's not something that a small inventor would likely have the context to correctly wrap around just the hardware. Nor does it seem like something the original patent would be general enough to exclude. The article mentions a $1B investment. I would think the band and reader hardware are the smallest part of that investment with the bulk of it in the how to apply the information in developing new park-specific processes and retraining employees.
- will_brown 12y ago
  >the real value is how & when that ID process happens and gets wrapped organically into many different processes in the park I think I agree with your point, but to rephrase I say the real value (for theme parks and resorts) would be easing the ability for patrons to make payments, purchasing data, the ability to track/locate patrons (lost kids, people injured in ski resorts, ect...), and the general logistical improvements of operations (being able to see what seats/rides are open, the exact number of people in line, redirecting people to other areas of the park, ect...). This is all very basic data available in most existing RFID software packages.

Animats 12y ago

I wonder how aggressively they mine the tracking information in real time. It would not be hard to recognize both "child separated from parents" and "parent movement matches search-like behavior", for example. How did they spend a billion dollars on this system, though?

Shivetya 12y ago

so they could be modified to monitor the health of their customers and wouldn't that be amazing. If someone is experiencing a life threatening situation employees could move in and discretely do a visual check and if confirmed react so much faster.

jeeshan 12y ago

As a doctor, the first thing that popped into my mind when reading this is how transformative this would be in the hospital for both patients and providers. Hospitals are mazes for patients and there are so many obvious ways to improve the experience. But as a provider, moving from transactions to moments with patients would reinvigorate the practice. "The goal was to create a system that would essentially replace the time spent fiddling with payments and tickets for moments of personal interactions with visitors. The MagicBands and MyMagicPlus allow employees to “move past transactions, into an interactive space, where they can personalize the experience,”