18 ms·

Fired

• deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
• niche 12y ago
  Why is this at the top? Because corporate junkies be all like ohh shoot am I gonna get fired for reading Hacker News....
  • Xorlev 12y ago
    Maybe because it touches on our own fears of inadequacy. "I mean whoa, if Zach Holman was fired from GitHub, what does that mean about me?" Of course, it doesn't mean much. Different situations, different people. I can't deny that when I saw this I thought about myself and my own company in the context of termination.
  • rbonvall 12y ago
    Because many people upvoted it.
• deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
• cypriend 12y ago
  ""How Github Uses Github To Fire A Github Employee" deck coming soon
  • mnml_ 12y ago
    lolz
• cpr 12y ago
  Zach was a quite visible ambassador for GH, an excellent speaker and spreader of GH love and lore. Would love to hear the story behind this.
  • jgmmo 12y ago
    For me, he was the face of GH.
  • bmelton 12y ago
    The amount of non-technical things that I learned from Zach is a very long list. In my opinion, GitHub was, by Zach's description at least, the "exactly right" sort of organization that I would imagine an employee wanting to work at. I blatantly stole his PowerPoint tips, right down to the orange-colored Yanone Kaffesatz font. I learned about how to to unsuck the development environment, that the product was the byproduct, and more about Github than from probably any other source. This doesn't change that for me, but he was indeed a fantastic ambassador and representative of a company that I would very much love to work for. This doesn't make me think negatively of Github, or Zach, but without knowing why he was fired, or for what reasons he's no longer a good fit, it does give me the idea that the big tent has shrunk a little bit.
• coderintherye 12y ago
  If nothing else, I'm thankful to Zach for a lot of the guidance he's provided on his blog over the years. When we did a "field trip" to Github thanks to Scott, I shared Zach's quote with the engineers here: "We’re currently at 35 employees and growing, and this approach still works great. But managers love to assign hours for a reason: it gives them the illusion that hours can measure performance. If you don’t go hard on hours, you do have to look at different metrics. How good is their code? Are they fixing bugs? Are they involved in work, or is the greater flexibility not motivating them? It’s difficult to make these qualitative judgements, but they’re still going to be more valuable than “did this guy put in his ten hours of work today”. Because as soon as you make it about hours, their job becomes less about code and more about hours." 4 years ago a lot of us had just come to Kiva from corporate gigs and such and were building a culture of meritocracy rather than bureaucracy and even though this advice seems obvious now, they were truly inspiring words at the time. Thanks Zach for all the writing!
  • icefox 12y ago
    How is Kiva after the Amazon acquisition?
    • nowarninglabel 12y ago
      Different Kiva, http://www.kiva.org http://www.kiva.org :)
  • curun1r 12y ago
    Just to add a similar sentiment, I've also seen Zach speak at conferences and his talks are excellent. If nothing else, someone should hire him to represent them at various tech conferences to improve their reputation and attract better talent. And given how insightful his talks are, I'd bet he's at least a decent developer too. I have no doubt that the offers will roll in, despite any stigma over being fired. As someone who hires developers, I'd have no qualms about hiring him.
• simonlc 12y ago
  Why was he fired?
  • wongarsu 12y ago
    And that's the part of being fired you usually don't discuss publicly. It always makes somebody look bad and nobody wants to burn bridges
    • ElComradio 12y ago
      Image is paramount in this meritocracy.
      • deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
    • MCRed 12y ago
      But part of the problem is that in a meritocracy you need people to know who the bad actors are. It seems pretty obvious from outside Github that something has gone rotten in the company over the past couple of years, and the is the latest of the smells. Now any one of us could end up hiring that rotten apple from github in the future, if we don't know who it is. Of course you don't want to slander or libel people, but giving them the cover of complete anonymity is not good.
      • rdtsc 12y ago
        Perhaps meritocracy is a term used by those in power to placate those that don't have power, to give them the illusion that it is all just a objective and clear and if they fail it is all their fault because they didn't merit it.
      • paulrademacher 12y ago
        You're free to ask people who come in to interview at your company, "why did you leave your last job?" and apply your own judgement. Or if you truly want to help improve Github, you should join them! :-)
• heyheyhey 12y ago
  Wasn't this guy called out by Julie Ann Horvath, the one who complained about harassment at Github? Guess this has nothing to do with that?
  • ectopic_cheeto 12y ago
    worse, he was the one who reversed her commits because she broke his heart. and they say girls are the emotional ones... ha!
• deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
• sridca 12y ago
  Back in December 2012, Julie Horvath expressed her desire to have Zach fired. I wonder if these two incidents are actually related. @Holman is my ex-partner. He was complicit in the actions of both Tom and Theresa Preston-Werner and even admitted to plotting with Theresa Preston-Werner to get women at the company fired. He should be let go from GitHub and I regret being kind to him in previous interviews. http://valleywag.gawker.com/ims-and-email-support-allegations-about-the-toxic-cultu-1567175545 http://valleywag.gawker.com/ims-and-email-support-allegation...
  • eridius 12y ago
    That was my first thought too. But this seems too far after that incident for it to be the cause.
    • chuhnk 12y ago
      No. It's a great way to separate one's involvement from the issue. Things like this happen all the time and you don't hear about it because it's treated exactly like this. CEOs are displaced at the top level in a way that makes it look like a natural next step.
      • eridius 12y ago
        If the intent was to make it look like a natural next step, he wouldn't be writing a blog post about how he was fired. If he really was fired for that incident, I'd much prefer GitHub to be open about it and make it clear that was why.
        • chuhnk 12y ago
          He said he was fired, but not how.
          • eridius 12y ago
            Yes. My point was that "being fired" is not the "natural next step" for anyone.
• jared314 12y ago
  > Part of the problem with not admitting publicly that you were fired is that people inevitably assume you're moving onto something bigger and better I thought the issue with admitting it was that people would now question your reliability as an honest contributor to future workplaces.
• mrb 12y ago
  Human nature is really amazing. After the reading the first 4 paragraph I saw his openness and honesty. I felt compassion and trust. And I was already thinking to myself "Zach really looks like a cool guy; if he is skilled I would probably hire him", without attaching any significance whatsoever to the fact he was fired. If you are reading this, Zach, continue to be open, honest, accept your mistakes, show you do learn from them to continuously become a better person, and you will have a good life :)
  • cnp 12y ago
    I felt the same. Started reading and was like "uh..." but by the end I felt he had an enormous amount to show for and to say, with wise words all around.
  • MollyR 12y ago
    I agree. I felt the exact same way. Also Zach somehow sounds extremely professional and personal at the same time too. Got to say I'm impressed, and I too know the pain of getting laid off.Reading this article makes me feel alot better about the shame and guilt I felt from being fired.
  • shampine 12y ago
    Just reading the post not knowing who he was made me follow him on Twitter, follow him on GitHub, and I ended up looking through three of his super popular repos, reading the readme and giving him a few stars. So ya, he's going to go on to do better things without question. I read a lot of blog posts per day and that kind of immediate desire to research [the author] is uncommon.
  • switch007 12y ago
    It would have been stupid to write any other kind of blog post. Some (inadvertent?) self-promotion is a good move.
  • methehack 12y ago
    The graceful and honest way he expresses himself made me think "who the heck fired this guy?" I know, I know.. All about fit at point in time... Still, what a thoughtful guy. Courageous too. Takes a lot to be so open at such a vulnerable time.
• lucasjcm 12y ago
  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it bad for him to talk about this publicly and insinuate that his manager was shit and that he was fired for no good reason? This situation reminds me a lot of the time an ex-employee of reddit complained about his firing, on reddit (!!), and was publicly called out for it by reddit's CEO at the time [1]. [1] https://np.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2iea97/i_am_a_former_reddit_employee_ama/cl1ygat?context=3 https://np.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2iea97/i_am_a_former_r...
  • exelius 12y ago
    I actually don't feel he trashed GitHub at all. The article was more about the stigma of being fired and how it made him feel versus whether his firing was valid or not.
  • crazypyro 12y ago
    I don't think he was really insinuating that his manager was shit. I think he was simply talking about the different stories he heard. It could be just as likely that the very next thing he says "or dealing the fallout from things out of their control." or really an infinite possibilities. Just my 2 cents.
    • FireBeyond 12y ago
      Maybe. To me, when you say "you tell your story and then they tell you their similar story about being stuck under shitty managers". I think there's definitely a credible, though not ironclad, case to be made for insinuation.
  • wongarsu 12y ago
    >that his manager was shit I don't think he said that in the article. He implied that the reason was out of his control, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a good reason. From later in the article: >I still consider it an objective mistake for them to have hired me, back then >I left on great terms with leadership and the people I worked with
    • 12y ago
• therobot24 12y ago
  The initial opening of the tweet really threw me off. >The last half-decade meant everything to me. Was a hell of a gig. Thanks, GitHub. Something about it seemed off-putting. I dunno, maybe it's because i'm not really into twitter, but it just came off, for lack of better words, fake. However, i read the rest of the post, and it was quite good. I actually enjoyed way more than i thought i would. Which kind of begs the question of what else have i ignored/put off/dismissed from reading too much into these small droplets of text. Usually 'less is more', but i'm beginning to have my doubts. downvotes? guess twitter is protected territory
  • mordocai 12y ago
    Probably due to not being used to twitter. I'm getting into it and I almost always have to shorten my tweets. It's hard to get anything meaningful into the character limit.
• benihana 12y ago
  Ha, that Atlassian tweet was pretty good.
  • temuze 12y ago
    For reference: https://twitter.com/holman/status/569957689624694784 https://twitter.com/holman/status/569957689624694784
    • logicallee 12y ago
      can you explain? why would someone not take it at face value?
      • acomjean 12y ago
        Atlassian runs bitbucket a github (the company that fired him) competitor.
        • johnnyfaehell 12y ago
          Yea but even then people move on to competitors all the time.
  • kerbs 12y ago
    I was so sad when it wasn't true :(. My reaction was "OMG maybe he will make JIRA not suck!!!"
    • jchrisa 12y ago
      I wonder what would have happened if he showed up for work that day.
• iamleppert 12y ago
  Why does everyone feel compelled to live their life in the public? Shut up and sit down! You ain't special, dear..
  • 650REDHAIR 12y ago
    Because talking through events is healthy. Whether that's in public or private is totally up to him.
  • jplahn 12y ago
    Because a lot of people go through the aftermath of being fired, so having somebody else to empathize with is nothing if not a reminder that you're not alone.
  • loganu 12y ago
    There are tons of positives, and tons of negatives, to opening up your story to the world. (This isn't really daily life, it's the end of a 5 year stint.) If it's not for you, fine. But that's your decision, not his. And vice versa.
  • deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
• ianstallings 12y ago
  How on earth would this ever benefit you? Oh by the way I got fired. I know it's taboo because well it's not a good thing but I'm gonna change that. Because it was awesome. Thank you sir may I have another? What the.. I've been fired before. Wasn't too happy about it myself.
  • callahad 12y ago
    > How on earth would this ever benefit you? Breaking taboos is a good way to get noticed. Zach getting noticed is a good way to broadcast the fact that he's available for hire. That, taken with his strong reputation in the community? I'd be shocked if he wasn't sitting on a tidy bundle of offers in the next week.
    • IndianAstronaut 12y ago
      It is actually somewhat relieving that even amazing developers and creative individuals can get fired. Makes me not feel as bad about it if I ever end up in such a situation.
      • UK-AL 12y ago
        The easiest way to get over it, is to accept that it is a likely possibility that happens to a lot of good people. You have a lot of options once you get fired(Employment, self-employed, education) and is opportunity to change stuff you may not of liked anyway.
• detcader 12y ago
  > Unless you're embezzling money or using the interns as drug mules or something. Let's say that Holman did something not so hyperbolically terrible as these silly examples, but still terrible enough to reflect on his character for some people but not others (as in, the reason is controversial), and that's what got him fired (this is for arguments sake; I have no idea who he is or why he got fired). This sentence would then be a very important one to him in this article. But, the sentence is embedded in the very abstract essay, which is of course a good essay, albeit not particularly novel in its ideas ("people get dealt bad hands or make mistakes and we have social mores that prevent us from rigorously considering this" what else is new?). So we get a sort of intellectual dishonesty we see regularly from politicians: deep philosophical musings to surround a quick sweep-under-the-rug of the actual issue. Or it could just be a philosophical essay. I don't know what it is, but I know what it sounds like.
  • crazypyro 12y ago
    Can we just stop speculating about this? He didn't come out and tell us, meaning anyone that isn't close to him will never find out. This over-analyzing of the reason (wasn't even an important point in the article) is just off-topic and more importantly, completely without evidence.... (Its not just you, but everyone is trying to play internet detective. Just stop. We don't need to dig into this guy's work life....)
    • detcader 12y ago
      My comment explicitly didn't speculate on any particular reason, it pointed to language that could easily be politician-grade rhetorical defense. Did you read my whole comment? People can speculate about the reasons if they can point to relevant historical record. Why not? This man isn't sacred, is he?
      • crazypyro 12y ago
        >So we get a sort of intellectual dishonesty we see regularly from politicians: deep philosophical musings to surround a quick sweep-under-the-rug of the actual issue. You are speculating here that he is pushing the issue under the rug. You also speculated that the reason he was fired was somehow related to the humorous reasons he gave. I think its a bit much....
• deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
  • serve_yay 12y ago
    Ugh.
  • detaro 12y ago
    Why is it a red flag if someone talks about getting fired?
    • Touche 12y ago
      "Getting fired" implies you did something really wrong, which makes you less desirable of a hire. It really depends if we are conflating "getting fired" with "laid off". The latter is not bad. When I hear that someone got fired it usually means they did something like break a big HR rule or caused the company to lose an important account.
      • UK-AL 12y ago
        I've known people who have gotten fired, and have gotten fired. 70% of the time, its politics. Basically I found out the founder of the company had been lying to me as a early hire, and I asked about it and wanted it fixed. And suddenly performance reviews went extremely negative. Stuff like that is why people get fired. Lesson Learned: Always get it written in a contact, don't trust verbal agreements. Companies only argue for "Professional" behaviour, when its in their favour.
        • Touche 12y ago
          Can you explain? I've never had a coworker that got fired without messing up badly or just being bad at their job. Maybe I've gotten lucky that way. Would love to hear about others viewpoints.
        • protomyth 12y ago
          "70% of the time, its politics." or someone, somewhere can do you job cheaper than you are doing it. "Reduction In Force" is the cute term I heard once.
• kevando 12y ago
  Just throwing this out there: I'd pay $40 to hear the real story.
  • eric_h 12y ago
    I believe it may have had something to do with a rather dramatic story about github from a while back. The last person who mentioned it in this thread got their comment killed, so I will stop here. Well, I should add this is pure speculation, I have no actual information about it.
    • deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
  • khnd 12y ago
    word.
• davidu 12y ago
  There are people who were at OpenDNS in the early days who were incredible, and as we grew, became less and less incredible, largely because the things that made them incredible actually started to be really frustrating as the company grew and they didn't want to change those things. So they had to leave. Usually it was a series of conversations about how the person, their peers, and the company were all unhappy, and why should we perpetuate the pain. We'd do our best to have them leave in a way that made them feel dignified and like they controlled their destiny, and but once in a while, there wasn't a meeting of the minds and we had to say "well, it's not gonna be fixed and it's time to go do something else." Even in those cases, I always thought so highly of the work I did with those people over the long haul, even if it was painful at the end. The point being, if I started a new company tomorrow, I would, without a doubt, go and try to hire some of those same people to help me start it. And maybe now, as a more capable manager than I was then, maybe some would make it longer, or maybe some would realize as the company goes from 10 to 100, that they are just much more satisfied at really early stages. Maybe we'd even define their comp and equity to reflect the fact that they might not be on board for the long haul, but might be key for the early innings. The same thing is true for hiring bigger company people too early... without structure and process, some folks go crazy too and have to leave. You need the right people at the right time. This is hard to do. I messed up a bunch of times. Some people grow with the company through stages, and some don't. I think it's a responsibility of the company to help people grow if they want, or to end the misery and let them go back to what they love if they don't want to change. Finally -- For what it's worth, people are fired all the time ( as I have been ) for all kinds of reasons, and so it's not a reason not to hire someone. Professional hiring managers know this.
  • alexk 12y ago
    Can you elaborate a bit more about the things that made them awesome and the things that they did not want to change?
  • toomuchtodo 12y ago
    > Finally -- For what it's worth, people are fired all the time ( as I have been ) for all kinds of reasons, and so it's not a reason not to hire someone. Professional hiring managers know this. What terrifies me about being fired is: * I have a family to support, and even though we're well off enough to have a 6-12 month cushion, I've seen job markets where it takes longer than that you get hired * The number of unprofessional or biased hiring managers is vastly greater than the number of professional ones (I was disqualified for a sysadmin position based on a background check showing a city ordinance violation from tenants I had who left garbage on the front lawn when I attempted to be a landlord in my early 20s in a small Illinois farming community) * Just like in personal romantic relationships, you can do everything right and still get fired
• MCRed 12y ago
  Incompetent management is a plague on the industry. And the cause of it is that programmers are relatively low status. In so many businesses, there are "business guys" who end up managing the engineering staff-- at one level or another, but too often it's the direct manager role--and these business guys are incompetent at engineering. When you don't know whether a direct report is doing good or not because you don't understand what their doing, by definition you cannot manage them. What are you going to do? Listen to the other programmers opinion of their code? It immediately becomes political. The real tragedy is, learning business is not hard. Any programmer can do it. Biz guys can't learn programming-- despite all the "everyone should be a programmer" initiatives-- even easier is managing development teams. When you've got 10 years experience as a senior engineer, you should be promoted, and working on becoming an engineering manager. Engineering managers can develop code. Right now this role is called "lead engineer" but they have no people management responsibilities. This is something we, as engineers need to change. So long as the "people managers" are biz guys who don't understand engineering (and naturally are often hostile to it) good engineers are going to get fired, and our entire profession will continue to slip lower and lower in status.
  • rdtsc 12y ago
    When you interview ask how many people with MBAs and no programming experience you'll be working under. That is a good heuristic for future pain and frustration. Managers who are good engineers don't always manage well. Managers who have never been engineers are usually worse. > When you don't know whether a direct report is doing good or not because you don't understand what their doing, by definition you cannot manage them Especially middle managers, if they are not the owner and have their own managers on top of them, who also don't know how engineering works, there will be trouble. Because they are stuck in the middle. They have to please the ones on the top, without understanding how the programming actually works. So they'll make promises then turn around to you and tell you to work 70 hour weeks. > So long as the "people managers" are biz guys who don't understand engineering It is hard. The more time they spend managing and coordinating the less time they spend writing code. The less time they spend writing code the further they move from understanding what is involved. They just forget, or practices and tools change. Besides leadership is the key. That is as much learned as it is just a personality trait. It ties into how they relate socially to others, how they solve social and political problems. It requires empathy, but also harshness and coldness at times. I can be learned by I wouldn't discount it too trivial.
• ChuckMcM 12y ago
  I have often said that companies rarely take it personally when you decide to leave them, so don't take it personally when they decide to leave you. Easy to say and hard to do, like a lot of things in life. Mostly it is the illusion of control, you don't have it, you only have choices you can make in the face of unfolding events. At Zach points out, companies change as they grow, they are some weird strange attractor function that emerges from the collective personality of everyone working there. When I joined Sun for example it was the coolest place I could ever imagine being, when I left it was a enterprise focused sales engine. Same company but different places. I will say though that when I meet someone who has been fired or "let go" repeatedly from job after job, then it is a different situation entirely. Something I doubt Zach will experience.
  • enraged_camel 12y ago
    >>I have often said that companies rarely take it personally when you decide to leave them, so don't take it personally when they decide to leave you. Easy to say and hard to do, like a lot of things in life. People take getting fired personally because, at least in America, a person's job is a huge part of not just their self-identity, but also their social image. So when they lose that job, it's like they lose a part of themselves.
    • ChuckMcM 12y ago
      > at least in America, a person's job is a huge part of > not just their self-identity, but also their > social image. I agree with this statement, and I believe it to be wrong. Not incorrect, which would say that I thought it was false, but wrong in that it does people a disservice to themselves when they construct their self-identity in this way. My wife is a software engineering manager, my wife is a home maker. Both true (not simultaneously) and both interpreted wildly differently externally. We were fortunate that when we had kids, either one of us could choose to stay home while the other continued to work, she opted to be that person. And she took some external heat for it from her peers, but it wasn't part of her self-identity. Looking back on that choice, pretty much everyone who knew us then and now understands that it was a better choice than that of continuing to work, however they are split nearly evenly on whether or not I could have done as well being the primary interface to the kids during their most formative years :-). It sounded from reading Zach's essay that he didn't know if he should take it personally or not, but came around to realizing that he should not. That is a good thing and it will serve him well going forward. I think that is a great message. I hope that others reading it can avoid feeling like they lost a part of themselves when they are fired, and instead come to understand that they are all still there, just as they were before they were fired.
• coffee 12y ago
  I say Congratulations! 5 years is long enough as a employee at any tech company that isn't your own (or that you have serious upside in). Take what've you learned and forge you're own path. A path with control. Yes control... If you're employed by a company you have zero control (though, good managers work hard to make you feel exactly the opposite) and you can be fired/laid off/let go at any moment, without notice - job security is laughable. Congratulations, now forge ahead with control!
  • mpdehaan2 12y ago
    I was recently re-reading Clarke's Rendevous with Rama on an airplane and hit this quote: "Myron, like countless NCO’s before him, had discovered the ideal compromise between power and responsibility.” I am a fan of this balance.
• grandalf 12y ago
  Zach's posts and presentation/explanation style added a lot of value to Github. In reading the blog post linked in this story, I realize that I hadn't seen as much of that lately coming from Github. I'm sure Zach will go on to add significant value elsewhere. And as others in the thread have mentioned, what makes you a great early employee can sometimes not make you a great bureaucrat as the company grows. Hopefully his options are vested and he's able to have some financial upside in the future.
• guelo 12y ago
  Pretty smart for a guy with a large following to use it to let it be known that he was fired for random fluctuations of the universe and it had nothing to do with his performance.
• halostatue 12y ago
  I’ve been fired three times. The first time was early in my career. A site manager decided to impose working hours that (a) were in opposition to how I was recruited and (b) not what the client wanted, but (c) didn’t matter anyway because the site manager had the power to do that. This was no great loss. I was better off out of there than working under those circumstances. I had a new job a month later paying 50% more.‡ The second time was a few years ago. Another employee screwed over the entire team. He did something really stupid that caused him to be fired, the executive sponsor to be fired, and then a week later, me to be fired—just three weeks after I had started. Again, this was no great loss, but the company handled the whole situation very badly (they were one of two options I had when being recruited; they won, but they treated me like crap when I was fired). I was far better of out of there because it turned out that the management team without that executive sponsor was pretty stupid when it came to technology. The third time was last fall. A new head of engineering had come in and he decided that (a) he was the only person who could be bombastic about technology opinions, (b) he didn’t like my technology opinions and (c) he didn’t like me. I wasn’t better off out of there—this was one of the best teams I had ever worked with. I was better off not working for him, for sure. In the end, what he did was truly stupid: he isn’t there anymore and neither are the three other senior software engineers that were there when I was there. Those departures probably wouldn’t have happened if he hadn’t done that.• At the same time, I had a job doing something more clearly two months later. Less pay, but much more opportunity to learn, grown, and shape a team the way that I want to shape the team. Being fired hurts. Each of those times was depressing, because either I had just wound down a job search and didn’t want to spin it up again or I wasn’t ready for a job search. It sounds like Zach is doing the right thing—he’s got the tools and a bit of time to pull himself together, and he’s figuring out what he wants to do with the next phase of his career. Best of luck. ‡ More importantly, during that job search, I came to Canada the first time and met the woman who encouraged me to immigrate to Canada and whom I would eventually marry. • This last job search was interesting because the middle one was so short that it could clearly be seen as Not My Fault. This one…I had to address why I was no longer at the company clearly, directly, and without evasion or disparagement. I handled it very well, I think. I also figured out that I didn’t want to just be the “seniormost” person; I wanted to be the acknowledged team lead/dev manager. That changed the job search substantially.
• tuna 12y ago
  You get these feelings even when you are not fired and going thru a bad period in your job etc. Loved that he is very articulated and honest, it makes for a nice piece to read and think again and again. I'm sure he will get nicer gigs in the futures and wish the best of luck. I just wonder - how do you get fired from a no-manager company ? A robot ? http://www.fastcolabs.com/3020181/open-company/inside-githubs-super-lean-management-strategy-and-how-it-drives-innovation http://www.fastcolabs.com/3020181/open-company/inside-github...
  • meowface 12y ago
    In a no-manager organization, usually there is a "council" or "committee" and then there's everyone else. It may not be formally defined or have a name, but there always is one. Nearly every company out there has some kind of separation and hierarchy of leadership, even if there are only 2 tiers total.
• lchengify 12y ago
  Re: Zach's COBRA question. For those who don't know, COBRA (Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act) is a law passed in 1985 [1] that compels companies to offer "continuing health insurance" to employees that leave the company for any reason other than "gross misconduct". Basically it means that you can pay the company directly for your employer's health plan for a period of time, typically 18 months. The out-of-pocket will be more expensive, because your employer probably covered some of the premium cost. However, the premium as a whole is often cheaper than "individual coverage", since the company negotiates lower premiums with the insurance company. The company will typically mail you the form to fill out. It's pretty short, basically just a "opt-in" box to continue getting health insurance through the company's plan. One important detail: depending on your employer, health coverage probably ends on the last day of employment or the immediate end of the next month. However if something happens between you leaving and you filling out the form, COBRA still covers you because the law states that as long as you sign up within 60 days, it's "retroactive back to the event", the event being you leaving [2]. This covers the case of a catastrophe happening in the gap, e.g., getting hit by a car between the event and you mailing in the form. Caveat: IANAL, so always check with a legal professional when evaluating these options. But COBRA is generally a useful thing and I typically recommend people take it unless they have another gig lined up already. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_Omnibus_Budget_Reconciliation_Act_of_1985 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_Omnibus_Budget_Rec... [2] http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/faqs/faq-consumer-cobra.html http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/faqs/faq-consumer-cobra.html
  • NateDad 12y ago
    Just to clarify.... it's retroactive for 60 days. That means you don't really have to do anything for the first 45-ish, and if you don't need insurance in that time, and you get a new job, you're done. If you do need insurance (break a leg or something), then you can apply then, and it'll take effect retroactively to your departure date. If you get to 45-ish days and still don't have a new job that'll start before the 60 day mark, you'll need to sign up, or you risk getting hurt after the 60 day mark, when you then can't get insurance, and you'll be SOL. I am not a lawyer, I've just been between jobs many times in my career :)
• JDiculous 12y ago
  Why is this on the front page? Because he worked at GitHub? What was the point of this?
  • codezero 12y ago
    A lot of people in tech struggle with the frustration of being fired, or potentially being fired. This post helps to relieve some of the stigma associated with that, and coming from someone who very clearly worked hard at a notable company for a number of years, is also a reminder that people change, and companies change. Did you read the post? Is there anything about it that you found detestable?
    • JDiculous 12y ago
      I did read the post and didn't find anything detestable at all. It just didn't have much substance given that it's the top post on the front page of HN. He basically just said he got fired, and that being fired has too harsh of a stigma attached to it. Ok, I agree, but is that it? He didn't even touch on why he was fired. If he was anonymous software engineer at <insert unknown company>, I doubt this would've gotten any attention. Maybe I'm being too harsh, but when I read this post, the first thing that popped to my head was "senior employee fired from high-profile tech company uses subliminal social media marketing to reach front page of HN and land next job." But hey, props to him, it seems to be working.
      • codezero 12y ago
        Hm. I think you are probably right that an anon random programmer wouldn't have hit the top of the front page, that's a good point, but I also think that when a well known engineer is lamenting about being fired it sends a different message than a random person. That is, being well known and successful doesn't make you immune to reality :) I do agree, though, that he could have elaborated. Not about why he got fired, I think that's too nuanced and is not likely to really help anyone beyond satisfying base desires. What would have been helpful is the hindsight: what can YOU do today to avoid falling into this situation yourself? I'm willing to bet that it's too recent for him to have these insights. From my own experience, I've learned that you should prioritize who your manager is over who your company is. Managers have a great power over your advancement and success at a company, both socially and productively. They can empower you to succeed, or they can take credit for your work, while simultaneously making you look like a burden. Finding a great manager is really hard, and I think that's at the root of why many people end up getting fired, or even end up dissatisfied in their work. Looking back on my career, I've had many different kinds of managers, but one of my earliest ones stood out. I was 16, running a dial-up ISP and it got completely and totally hacked by an acquaintance. They didn't actually mean to cause data loss, but they did and I had to answer for it. My manager at the time stood between myself and the owner of the company who was furious, and took the blame, then stayed with me through the night manually re-entering customer data and getting things back on line. I've had good managers since then, but that's the exact kind of situation that people end up running into in their jobs which can change the course of their employment. You can do a lot of things to make sure you remain productive and to appear to be valuable to a company, but if your manager doesn't want you working there, they can do a lot to diminish all your contributions. Anyway, thanks for replying, it definitely helped me understand your point of view :)
• varunjuice 12y ago
  FWIW I was let go many years ago. When I was interviewing for the next job, the hiring manager asked what happened at the last job. Before I could share the story, he interrupted me & said."its ok. sometimes life throws curveballs at you. don't worry"
• TheMagicHorsey 12y ago
  I've never been fired. But I've been very unhappy at a job. I left about six-months or a year before I probably would have been fired, had I stayed. I usually try to leave a job before I'm so miserable that I stop doing work and get fired.
• funkdobiest 12y ago
  Ow this hits home, my company had layoffs this week, and fortunately I wasn't on the block but many friends and co-workers were. People who should not have to be looking for work. Our company has acquired this weird Silicon Valley mentality that you should never work at a business for longer than 3-4 years.I know things can get stale after being somewhere for a while, but if you prune your employees every 5 years then you will never get any long term loyalty, or even talent that can make a differnce.
• drawkbox 12y ago
  Engineers leaving, being fired or just being time, can happen to early engineers that made the company great as it changes. Changes like this are usually around growing pains and when power is transferred from engineers to the money/business or growth from small to medium or medium to large. Companies and developers evolve, sometimes they aren't as nice a fit after they do. Companies always run off good processes, but when you start hearing about new or needing changes to 'processes' driven by new VPs or Directors, usually that ocean is red and you need to move to blue seas and oceans again. Zach is probably a startup, product and research and development type of developer. He should stay at smaller companies or start up his own, I am sure he could get funding quickly. I'd even be for an additional github competitor though that could be un-interesting after this for him.
• acomjean 12y ago
  I'm going to go out on a limb here and say there is a reason that getting fired is considered bad. Its usually thought of as something you did or you have to explain it away. Either way its an extra question mark on you. The situation varies somewhat of course and there are bad bosses and other work relating things that you have little control over. If the situation is bad but not terrible a lot of times there is a discussion and a resignation instead of a firing. While I've not been party to these discussions my understanding is that a company tell you to resign or they will fire you, that lets you go without the stigma. Layoff is the expression used when you are let go when your services are no longer needed.
• bane 12y ago
  When I'm interviewing people and find out they were fired from a previous job, I always talk to them about it. If they're really evasive about it, only then do I red flag it. If they've come to terms with it and can clearly articulate what happened, even if it was their fault, I just count it as experience and don't think much more of it. On the flip side, unless somebody is really fucking things up, I almost always offer people a way to gracefully resign and keep that stigma off their work history. I've worked in places that also played the "we're not happy with you but we're not going to have a grown-up adult conversation with you". Instead of just firing somebody or asking them to resign, they'll start cutting pay or moving people around offices, taking work or staff away from them and isolating them so they decide to quit on their own. Don't do this. There's lots of reasons why not to, but the ultimate one is that it prolongs the inevitable, and while you're playing this game everybody around that person ends up in a state of perpetual confusion and rumors start flying around like crazy. As an employee, I also try to pay attention to my impact on the company and evaluate myself. If I'm not living up to my own standards, I'll get rid of myself and find someplace else to work. Quitting is not always about your employer providing a lousy place to work or career progression, if it's just not working for you and you aren't doing your best, you might be the cause of your own leaving.
• BuildTheRobots 12y ago
  This is probably a stupid question, but could someone explain what it means to be fired in the USA? Here in the UK (especially after you've been employed for over two years and/or you're off "probation") it tends to be the last step in a long process of verbal then written warnings where you're repeatedly doing things you're getting told off for. Relatively few things are actually "bad" enough to get you instantly dismissed on the spot (theft and the woolly term "gross misconduct" jump to mind, but even then there were multiple meetings, investigations and very specific charges). In the UK if you were fired (rather than being made redundant or being given the chance to quit) it tends to mean that the blame is on you, to the point where the company would be willing to prove this with evidence at a tribunal (-especially if it's a medium to large company). From what I'm reading, in the US it seems to be a case that you could loose your job, with no notice at any time for any reason?
  • fiberoptick 12y ago
    It's highly dependent by the state in which you work. Github is in California, an "at-will" state [1], which basically means that you can get fired for any reason, including no reason at all. The only exceptions to this rule are if you were fired as a result of discrimination of a certain protected characteristic such as your age, gender, race, etc. [1] http://www.business.ca.gov/StartaBusiness/AdministeringEmployees/EqualEmploymentOpportunityLaws/AtWillEmployment.aspx http://www.business.ca.gov/StartaBusiness/AdministeringEmplo...
  • deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  • techpeace 12y ago
    Exactly right! Every engineering job I've had has been considered "at will employment," [1] meaning that the company can terminate you, or you can walk, at any time, and for any (legal) reason. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment (edited to correct typo)
  • nlh 12y ago
    Yes, in most cases in the US, you're correct. A vast majority of hiring relationships are "at will" relationships -- which means you can leave at will and be fired at will. The exceptions are when there's a formal employment contract in place -- unions do this, certain professions do this (professors, etc.), and certain executive packages are under contract as well. But in general, yes, you can quit on a moment's notice and be fired on the same. NOW - most "smart" companies won't just do this. A good manager wants his/her employees to succeed, and if something isn't going right, they'll do their best to coach, warm, and help the employee improve. Are there lots of bad managers who keep it all bottled up inside until one day, boom, you're fired? Sure. It stinks. I'd like to believe there are more good managers than bad ones (at least in terms of coaching employees toward longevity.)
• grayfox 12y ago
  In the end, business is about people. People will reject other people. It should not represent your self worth, and it certainly should not represent your technical performance. Soldier on Zach.
• mc32 12y ago
  I'm not sure I'd be so sanguine about things. If you get fired, unless you could not stand management or the environment, you should feel upset. Zach apparently feels okay because the company did it classily. No, dont do that. Get angry, it is their fault. When you hire someone you should not think of people as disposable commodities. No, you owe them recognition and respect, the dame with the employee, but to a lesser degree because the employee does not have leverage. As an employer you have leverage so you should acknowledge that power imbalance and act accordingly. It's not like github needs to retrench and is having financial difficulties, nope. They simply fired someone who gave them five years because they weren't feeling it anymore. That's not classy. It's less than heartless, they obviously don't see employees as people they need to nurture and develop. They are just a temporary tool they will dispose when they need to. Sure, this is prevalent, by things don't have to be this way. They should invest themselves in employees as much as employees invest themselves in the company. Most of all, show your humanity and do get upset with these kinds of no fault firings. It's not just yeah, well. Not with a company already that size. This attitude resembles a bit the show trials of the old user. Yes, comrade, I was bad, please punish me, I deserve it.
  • dasil003 12y ago
    Do you have more of the story than appears in this article because otherwise it seems like you are jumping to a lot of conclusions.
• porker 12y ago
  How many of the 'classic' GitHub team are left there now? Is GitHub, the product we've come to like and know so well now run by people with different views to those who started it?
  • alsdifu3 12y ago
    What is the 'classic' GitHub team? 2/3 founders are still there.
• JustSomeNobody 12y ago
  A manager I once worked under told me something. He said, "There should never be any surprises." He meant this for reviews, firings, etc. There should always be an open line of communication and as a manager, if you're doing it right, every person who works under you should know where they stand at all times. They should never have any question or doubt about what's on their review. Period. Come to think of it, he's one of only a couple of managers I've ever worked for. The rest have been merely bosses. If you're in management and you can't say this about the relationship you have with your subordinates, you're not doing your job and you should be the one getting fired.
• paulhauggis 12y ago
  It's posts like these that remind me why I quit being an employee and started my own business. As an employee, you could be working on a project for 10 years and have it taken away in an instant.
  • alsdifu3 12y ago
    Well customers can leave too. I'd say it's a completely different kind of freedom but you are still at the mercy of forces besides yourself.
    • paulhauggis 12y ago
      Yes, but what are the chances that all of my customers will leave at one time?
      • alsdifu3 12y ago
        What are the chances all your customers leave if you start doing nothing tomorrow? I'm not saying you're wrong but even owners have obligations.
• pwenzel 12y ago
  I've ben axed twice. Details aside, getting fired was best career move I ever made.
• wilsynet 12y ago
  According to Zach, Github doesn't have managers. So if there are no managers, then who fired him? Or can anyone just fire anyone else? Maybe Zach could just hire himself back.
  • civilian 12y ago
    I mean yeah, he probably fired himself too!
• baby 12y ago
  Wow! I've been following your blog for a while and I would never have expected someone like you to get fired. It's good that you're speaking out. I have to admit I'm really curious about the reason you got fired but I guess it's none of my business. Looking forward to see what you will do of your following months, be it getting hired or drinking whiskey all day long while next to a typewriter. Please blog about it :)
• dbg31415 12y ago
  Having been fired... three times in my life... I can say that each time was more of a personality issue than a skill or competency issue. So I never took it hard. I've gotten some people fired too... and it sucks from both sides. I'll say that it as satisfying as it is to know you won't have to work with some asshole again, it really sucks to sit them down and tell them that today is their last day on the project / with the company. Knowing the stress they will be under if they have kids or a spouse... it sucks. When getting fired, when firing, always important to remember that there are probably plenty of people in the organization who still would like to work with you... so badmouthing and spreading drama is always your least beneficial solution. Just take it with dignity / try and let them go gracefully.
• UweSchmidt 12y ago
  Worth remembering that for the most time in human history, no one was ever "fired" in the sense that happens today. You worked on a farm all your life, or possibly would have a trade, and that was that. So it's a new concept and we haven't fully come to terms with that. If the economic system keeps requiring people to switch jobs, then society must be more accepting: Employers need to be less weird about it, employees less devastated when it happens, everything smoothened out by a few weeks or months of unemployment benefits if necessary.
• barce 12y ago
  I'm just one guy that Zach really inspired. Thanks for that talk you gave on Github. It really inspired me and made me bring what's great in Github into my work and everyday life. I really liked the part of the talk on remote teams.
• ankitgarg00 12y ago
  I hear your experience and feel like man "this guy must have gone through so much". Instead of pitying you I would say "One heck of a ride and good luck with your next".
• davio 12y ago
  I figured out on a Friday that I was getting laid off/fired/downsized on Monday. Over the weekend I decided I would act like a zen master. I walked in like I was getting a promotion, acted gracious the entire time, thanked the people and let them know I was sorry they had to do this and then walked out like I just got promoted. I actually talked to the HR lady at a later day and she confided how the director and her were both impressed with how I handled it. Since you can't change the outcome at that point anyways, I think it's best to try to go out as a 100% class act.
  • jonsterling 12y ago
    Really? Might also say, “I have no spine”... There's a tricky line to walk between two different kinds of cringe--the kind that happens when someone sees you let someone walk all over you, and the kind that happens when you freak out and air your grievances.
  • pcthrowaway 12y ago
    I was very careful to handle a rejection from a company I had interviewed with in November with similar grace; thanked the HR person I had been corresponding with and reiterated that I thought it was a great fit but that I wish them well with their future candidates. They contacted me again in February and I'm starting with them this month.
• _random_ 12y ago
  Who is the dude?
• abalone 12y ago
  Zach has been an articulate and charismatic voice on a set of nouveau working styles and policies, such as remote work, unlimited vacation and a very high degree of employee self-organization. Without violating anyone's privacy, if that's possible, I would like to know whether these contributed to his firing. I ask simply because I'd like to better understand whether this is a siren song for startups that doesn't scale well. Would he have benefited from more structure, a performance plan, etc.? Does this degree of freedom lead to chaos and arbitrary decisionmaking as a company scales? Hope he writes more about it.
• hugofirth 12y ago
  There is lots of interesting information in this thread, with several references to a "Fire fast" culture becoming more common amongst tech companies. As a UK citizen, I have to ask: Are the employment laws a lot weaker in the US? In general it would be difficult to institute such a policy over here without a half decent lawyer shredding you to pieces. [1],[2] for ref. [1]: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/business/volvo-business/10953386/employment-law-sack-employee.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/business/volvo-business... [2]:https://www.gov.uk/dismiss-staff/overview https://www.gov.uk/dismiss-staff/overview
  • dragonwriter 12y ago
    > Are the employment laws a lot weaker in the US? Don't know about the details of the UK specifically, but, yes, employment protection laws in the US are all-but-non-existent, with at-will employment allowing immediate termination for any but specifically-prohibited (e.g., race, sex, religious, etc., discrimination, retaliation for invoking certain other protections, etc.) reasons.
    • hugofirth 12y ago
      I'm genuinely shocked by this. I'm all for free market mechanisms but come on ... a system without strong employee protection must be naturally prone to abuse.
      • SamReidHughes 12y ago
        Other effects such as the increased willingness to hire people cancel out the bad(?) effects. If by abuse you mean some advantage of negotiating position that the employer could use to eke out long hours (or some other surprise change in the job description), well, the increased ease of firing is canceled out by the increased ease of the employee deciding to get a new job. The degree to which this is the case depends on the job market at the time. You might also observe that a system that has what you call strong employee protection is also prone to abuse (or what you might call people taking advantage of their negotiating position), in the other direction. Maybe it's more important in America to be proactive about avoiding living in a one-company town. Advantage of negotiating position is usually expressed through compensation rates because it's bad business to make employees hate the company after they already have a job. But, you know, I work in software and can't tell what it's like being a barista or farm worker. Edit: and please correct my misunderstanding if you mean something else by abuse. That's just the only meaning I can think of.
• JulianMorrison 12y ago
  > This isn't the case with love, to choose a cliché metaphor. If you break up with somebody, it just wasn't meant to be is the catch-phrase used rather than yo you must have been a shit partner to not have forced that relationship to work out. You'll find they say that a lot, actually. Just mostly to women.
• zeeshanm 12y ago
  Great post, Zach. Just wanted to say back in the day when I was getting into web dev good-tuorials.com was probably one of the reasons I got hooked. I got inspiration to create stuff by learning from tutorials posted to good-tutorials and make a site like yours. Great stuff!
• joslin01 12y ago
  I love your website landing
• nikanj 12y ago
  I feel weird parallels between the job market and the dating scene recently. Nobody is good enough, you can be tossed out at any point for not being an absolute perfect match, and everybody is complaining about how impossible it is to find love/talent.
• simonebrunozzi 12y ago
  I come from Europe, where "getting fired" seems to have a slightly different weight for people, and I really need to ask this. Please assume I'm a total ignorant in this regard, and explain this to me like you would to a young teen. Why getting fired is seen as so bad? What's the difference in your view (in terms of perception) between being fired and being laid off? How can a company know that someone has been fired from the previous company?
  • thedufer 12y ago
    I think the way the terms are used is that laid off means the company no longer needs anyone in your position, while fired means they still need someone to do your job, but it's no longer you. The implications of this are clear, I think - if you're fired, it's your fault; if you're laid off, it's either the fault of your company (not enough money, perhaps) or of the market (robot does your job).
    • binxbolling 12y ago
      Also has implications for the social safety net in the US: if you resign or are fired, you can't collect unemployment checks; if you are laid off, you can. A lay-off also means the company can't immediately turn around and hire for that position because, supposedly, the position is not needed, or is needed but can't be funded (as you said). Companies can easily circumnavigate this by creating a new position with a slightly different title and slightly different responsibilities, then just hire for that.
• bobofettfett 12y ago
  Could not find in the post why he was fired. Form my experience, if not being part of a 10% cut 80% of the fired people deserved it and should think hard why. Also from my experience, most people getting fired for legit reasons have not enough self introspection to see the signs and change, also mostly everyone else sees those in them.
• hidro 12y ago
  It's hard to have a good initial reaction to someone getting fired, as it means something has been broken. But I agree with the post, a broken relationship may just happen because things change in a way we can't avoid.
• twoquestions 12y ago
  Wow, I can't believe the cavalier attitude to getting fired most of you have. If an employer has decided to fire you, then you've not only failed at your job, you've failed as a human being. Perhaps it's due to where in the US I live, but getting fired is not just separating from your job, it's a reason for your spouse to divorce you, and an acceptable reason for your bank/landlord to break the lease and kick you out of your home. If you get canned, your life is over. This is the power employers wield over their employees, and they're right to do it. The boss is giving you their hard-earned money to provide a product, and if you don't deliver you're lower than trash. If at any point you lay your head back you should all but feel a .45 pressed against the back of your skull. No matter how valuable you think you are to your employer, they have earned the right to end your life (in a figurative sense) if you displease them, or they find someone better than you. I think that's why we have such a good economy in the US, is employees have a healthy fear of their bosses. If anything, getting fired should be even worse than it already is. Why should workers get to underperform without more serious consequences?
  • JamesSwift 12y ago
    I only count one question.