9 ms·

Snowden in talks on returning home: lawyer

105 points by primroot 12y ago

aluhut 12y ago
Wouldn't he just disappear in one of these secret courts?
- api 12y ago
  He's too high profile to 'just disappear.' He would almost certainly face charges.
  - slantedview 12y ago
    Sure, but they'd be argued in a quasi-fair court, specially purposed for the occasion.
    - CoreSet 12y ago
      I'd add here it would probably be a military tribunal, locked under the pretense of protecting state secrets, but they don't seem to be having a good time of it prosecuting the 9/11 defenders. Still, expect surveillance and general intimidation of defense attorneys and judges on the same scale.[1] [1] http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/guantanamo/article1947210.html http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/...
      - wavefunction 12y ago
        I "get" how he could end up in a military tribunal because "laws be-damned" but not sure what sort of tortuous logic they could use to justify that. He was a civilian when he committed his acts so I believe he would legally be facing a civilian court system. I agree "national security" would be invoked to hush it all up but it would certainly add to the body of evidence that the people in charge got to go.
        CoreSet 12y ago
        I think they could make some tortured legal case that because he was working as a security contractor with a certain clearance and had access to XX information and signed XXX legal release forms, he could be tried as a member of the military. Or heck, name him an "enemy combatant" and just detain him indefinitely in some Polish blacksite. People will forget his name in time.
        dragonwriter 12y ago
        > I think they could make some tortured legal case that because he was working as a security contractor with a certain clearance and had access to XX information and signed XXX legal release forms, he could be tried as a member of the military. The Supreme Court has already struck down, on constitutional grounds, application of the UCMJ to military contractors deployed with the military on foreign military missions, under express language in the UCMJ applying it to them (the motivation for the Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act, which applied US federal civilian criminal law that otherwise applies within the US territorial and special maritime jurisdiction to them.) So I don't see that argument surviving the inevitable habeas petition. > Or heck, name him an "enemy combatant" and just detain him indefinitely in some Polish blacksite. People will forget his name in time. Not in time to mitigate the short term political consequences of being seen disappearing him.
      - r00fus 12y ago
        Prosecution isn't the goal. It's to make an example of him. Rotting in solitary while the court case slowly plays out is likely just as good for the supposedly aggrieved as a victory in court with the subsequent incarceration.
  - shepardrtc 12y ago
    After a little while in court he'll just get really stressed out and commit suicide.
    - bhayden 12y ago
      Suicide by two shots to the back of the head.
      - anigbrowl 12y ago
        Infowars is that way -->
  - bashinator 12y ago
    Given just the amateur research on remote-exploiting automobile control systems for auto-parking and such, I'd be astonished if the CIA didn't have plenty of experience in using modern cars as a weapon to kill the driver.
- CoreSet 12y ago
  I don't understand how he ever believes he could get a fair trial. I commend him for the belief in the rule of law that the sentiment represents, but he embarrassed the world's most powerful intelligence establishment - you know, the people responsible for killing people who want to kill us in secretive ways. There's nothing I'd consider out of bounds for possible retaliation, not even a "heart attack" or "engine problems."
  - moe 12y ago
    not even a "heart attack" or "engine problems." At this point, what would anyone gain from that?
    - guard-of-terra 12y ago
      There is this idea that some people just have to retaliate, regardless of whether it is in their interest. They have to show they're still in the game - more important than near objectives in the said game. This may or may not apply to the situation.
    - flurpitude 12y ago
      Revenge. http://www.buzzfeed.com/bennyjohnson/americas-spies-want-edward-snowden-dead http://www.buzzfeed.com/bennyjohnson/americas-spies-want-edw...
      - CoreSet 12y ago
        “I would love to put a bullet in his head,” one Pentagon official, a former special forces officer, said bluntly. “I do not take pleasure in taking another human beings life, having to do it in uniform, but he is single-handedly the greatest traitor in American history.” Chilling
        bhayden 12y ago
        Also love how they are completely ignoring the people who have literally assassinated a president.
- IceyEC 12y ago
  I think that part of what he desires is to be able to make any defense that he wants. As stated in CitizenFour and again in his AMA, a defense in this case would be severely limited in what it could claim, because the case involves espionage, he would be unable to make a defense claiming that the actual laws are unjust, for example.
- rayiner 12y ago
  Source for "secret courts" that try U.S. citizens? Even citizens captured fighting against the U.S. in Afghanistan were transferred to regular courts once their citizenship became apparent. The FISA court is no such thing. It was created by Congress review execution action that doesn't Constitutionally require judicial oversight in the first place. It's not empowered to try people for crimes or anything of the sort.
  - shit_parade 12y ago
    "disposition matrix", although I don't think getting on that list even evolves a court, just an advisory panel made up people picked by the executive breach, but it is hard to know for sure since it is all considered secret. EDIT: how about a counter argument instead of reflexive down votes -- yeah it sucks our government kills US citizens without much due process but that's the truth, try not to avert your eyes.
    - harryh 12y ago
      I think that most people are comfortable with the idea that if you join a foreign militia and take up arms against the United States you forfeit certain protections of citizenship. Certainly not everyone agrees with this but that's the counter argument you asked for.
      - shit_parade 12y ago
        How about Abdulrahman al-Awlaki or Samir Khan? I suppose they didn't even get the semblance of due process, just were at the wrong place at the wrong time. EDIT: parent asked for a source for secret courts, the "disposition matrix" is just that, except it doesn't even involve the judicial branch only the executive and has resulted in the deaths of 3 Americans, one purposely and two 'accidentally' whether killing Americans on purpose or on accident is worse or better I'll leave as an exercise for the readers imagination.
        harryh 12y ago
        Neither of those people were intentionally killed. Certainly we can argue about larger strategy and when the cost of collateral damage is worth military action but that discussion is orthogonal to one about a loss of due process.
jkot 12y ago
Only way for him to return is presidential pardon. Not going to happen.
- TillE 12y ago
  It's not inconceivable. I have very little faith in the personal integrity of Obama, but his last acts as President would happen after the election of his successor. If he wanted to do it, people would whine about it for a few months and forget long before the next election.
- yid 12y ago
  Could happen. Look at Clinton's last-day pardon record. I wouldn't rule out something similar for Obama on his last day in office.
mathattack 12y ago
He probably stands a better shot of a deal with Obama, rather than whichever administration comes next. I think Hilary had a lot of egg on her face with the leaks (though using public email is her own fault!) and the Republicans would crucify him. I think it's now or never for him.
- fixxer 12y ago
  obama has used the espionage act more than any other president.
  - taylorwc 12y ago
    Really? Source?
    - fixxer 12y ago
      google it; there are many http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jan/10/jake-tapper/cnns-tapper-obama-has-used-espionage-act-more-all-/ http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jan/10/...
    - grey-area 12y ago
      http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/06/obama-abuse-espionage-act-mccarthyism http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/06/obama-a... https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/18/destroyed-by-the-espionage-act/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/18/destroyed-by-t... http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jan/10/jake-tapper/cnns-tapper-obama-has-used-espionage-act-more-all-/ http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jan/10/...
    - fargolime 12y ago
      To get sources, I highlighted the sentence, right-clicked and chose Search Google for...
      - taylorwc 12y ago
fargolime 12y ago
The average American thinks an arrest is tantamount to guilt; one of many signs of this is that mugshots are made public here. Snowden should stay exiled.
- andrewrice 12y ago
  Well, technically, he is guilty.
  - fargolime 12y ago
    So was Rosa Parks. We have a whistleblower law, along with a gov't oath to defend the Constitution, that potentially trumps other laws. So his prison potential isn't so clear.
    - msandford 12y ago
      > defend the Constitution, that potentially trumps other laws I can't see how it couldn't trump other laws! Think about it. If you can pass a new law which trumps the Constitution via a method that doesn't involve a Constitutional amendment, then you've just done an end-run around the theoretically supreme law of the land. And if you can do that, the Constitution is completely meaningless. The whole point of the document is that it outlines some bedrock stuff and it's neigh impossible to change unless everyone in the country really agrees that it needs to via a 3/4 majority of the states ratifying. I would argue that the Constitution absolutely overrides laws to the contrary and we see this play out all the time with the Supreme Court. Things get struck down all the time as unconstitutional and that's the end of it. I can't see how the founding document of our government can somehow be subverted by other laws unless those laws are deemed as important via ratification.
      - fargolime 12y ago
        > I would argue that the Constitution absolutely overrides laws to the contrary We're agreeing with each other? It's up to each person who takes an oath to defend the Constitution, to ignore and even fight against unconstitutional laws, i.e. ones that in an ideal world would be overridden by a fair Supreme Court. Couldn't reply earlier due to "you're posting too fast" limitation, even after a day. I may have to wait several days to reply again.
exelius 12y ago
I'm guessing his situation in Russia has deteriorated to the point where a US prison is preferable to staying in Russia. I'd say best case for him is 10 years in jail. Because there is almost no question that he broke the law; he will be arguing intent and conscientiousness. His chief demand will likely be that the government not charge him under the espionage act, which is so broad and inflexible it would not even allow him to present a defense. No idea what other legal statutes he could be charged under, but whatever they are would have to at least allow the possibility of raising the "I did this in the best interests of the country, not the best interests of our military contractors and bureaucrats" defense. Oh, and also that the trial will be a media circus and keep the NSAs surveillance programs in the news for the greater part of the next decade.
- slantedview 12y ago
  > I'm guessing his situation in Russia has deteriorated to the point where a US prison is preferable to staying in Russia That may be the case, but keep in mind, in some way this story isn't news. Snowden has always said he'd like to come home. That hasn't changed.
  - exelius 12y ago
    I completely agree; the timing is curious to me though. Given how savvy he and his team (i.e. the reporters he's been working with) are with manipulating the media, I wouldn't be surprised if this is just becoming public because the US is entering into a presidential election cycle. IMO the best political outcome for the democrats would be to have Obama pardon him as part of the presidential pardons every president issues on his last day in office. Bush actually gave last-day pardons to people accused of much more dangerous leaks of classified information (the whole Valerie Plame scandal), so it's not unprecedented.
- CoreSet 12y ago
  Knowing that he would be treated unfairly and seeking that treatment just the same precisely to expose that unfairness makes me respect him even more.
- 12y ago
rhokstar 12y ago
This would be a perfect movie.
mousa 12y ago
I'd be worried about staying in Moscow right now if I were Snowden. Whether true or not, Russian government is acting fully confident that Nemstov was killed as a false flag. If they get a little more angry about accusations the "CIA" might kill Snowden just to prove a point.
comrade1 12y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if something else is happening. While his lawyer 'negotiates' look for snowden to turn up in a different extradition-free country. I think he's too smart to believe any platitudes about a "fair trial." Of course it will be a fair trial, just like manning got along with his years of solitary - completely fair and normal. As for a presidential pardon, I don't think that can happen without a conviction. Can you get a preemptive pardon?
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  > As for a presidential pardon, I don't think that can happen without a conviction. Can you get a preemptive pardon? He could be granted immunity by the Justice Department.
  - happyscrappy 12y ago
    Do journalists already have a copy of everything he took? If not that could be a powerful negotiating tool.
    - adventured 12y ago
      Yes, it was given to a few journalists. The full document load is no longer in Snowden's possession.
- swamp40 12y ago
  >> As for a presidential pardon, I don't think that can happen without a conviction. Can you get a preemptive pardon? Worked for Ford and Nixon: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Proclamation_4311 http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Proclamation_4311
  - maxerickson 12y ago
    I found this summary when it came up in a recent previous discussion: http://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/05/opinion/l-constitution-allows-pardons-before-conviction-590688.html http://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/05/opinion/l-constitution-all...
sxcurry 12y ago
Maybe he could get the same deal as Petraeus?
- Someone1234 12y ago
  What? The dude that had an affair? I don't understand the relevance of that or what point you're trying to make. Can you clarify?
  - sxcurry 12y ago
    Petraeus reached a plea deal today for handing over classified material to his mistress. Looks like he'll get 2 years of probation.
kyledrake 12y ago
"Fugitive ex-U.S. spy Snowden in talks on returning home: lawyer" What a horrible, slanted, and incredibly unfactual title for this article. Of course he's negotiating. Why not?
- slg 12y ago
  Those words might be loaded, but they aren't wrong. He is wanted by the government to face criminal accusations therefore he is a fugitive. The word doesn't imply guilt of anything beyond not turning oneself in. He used to do work for the CIA and NSA therefore he is an ex-U.S. spy. The word spy is only being modified by ex-U.S., it isn't implying that he is a current spy or has worked for any other government.
- zbowling 12y ago
  Fugitive is correct. ex-Spy no. He was a network admin, not an analyst.
  - nyolfen 12y ago
    he worked for the CIA with cover identities as well
maceo 12y ago
I doubt this has anything to do with his condition in Russia. I think its timed very nicely to coincide public sentiment in the US. A movie about his courageous acts just won an Oscar. Hundreds of news stories brought to light by his efforts have outraged the US public over the last couple years. Him and his team might be running low on hard-hitting stories and would rather deal with an Obama DOJ than whatever comes next. If he wishes to turn himself in, the time to act is in the next 3-6 months before the 2016 primaries heat up. If he returns to the US soon, we will see massive demonstrations in the street demanding his release. I doubt he'd end up serving more than a couple years in prison. Even then, life abroad is no doubt preferable to life in the federal pen. It's smart for him to be putting feelers out right now, but its still far from certain that he's coming stateside anytime soon.
- atmosx 12y ago
  Any specific reason why he should be spend some years in prison and not given a medal and a nobel prize for peace?
  - krapp 12y ago
    Well, he did steal and leak state secrets, which is illegal. Absent a pardon by Obama, the government can't just pretend that didn't happen.
    - shitgoose 12y ago
      He stole and leaked evidence of state's illegal activities. If anything he deserves a medal. And state should go to jail. Oh, wait... State is running the jails. We may have problem here...
      - krapp 12y ago
        Killing someone is still a crime if it's in self defense - that's why we have trials, to weigh intent and consequence and such. What Snowden did can be justifiable, and still be a crime. Although I suppose it's a moot argument to make if one assumes no such thing as a fair trial can exist.
sambeau 12y ago
I hope he remembers to negotiate in regular trips to Glasgow University so he can finally carry out his function as Rector.
shit_parade 12y ago
unrelated question, but how does HN rank threads, at time of posting this thread has 89 points, 106 comments, and 1 hour but ranks in the 50s
- belovedeagle 12y ago
  Certain topics/keywords get penalized; I bet "Snowden" is one such keyword.
xlore 12y ago
Does the president, alone, have the ability to pardon him outright? Just thinking it certainly would be nice if Obama used that card on the way out given he's not up for re-election. I suppose he has to be convicted first, but maybe he could convict him and pardon him on the same day!!
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > Does the president, alone, have the ability to pardon him outright? Yes.

105 points by primroot 12y ago

aluhut 12y ago

Wouldn't he just disappear in one of these secret courts?

api 12y ago
He's too high profile to 'just disappear.' He would almost certainly face charges.
- slantedview 12y ago
  Sure, but they'd be argued in a quasi-fair court, specially purposed for the occasion.
  - CoreSet 12y ago
    I'd add here it would probably be a military tribunal, locked under the pretense of protecting state secrets, but they don't seem to be having a good time of it prosecuting the 9/11 defenders. Still, expect surveillance and general intimidation of defense attorneys and judges on the same scale.[1] [1] http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/guantanamo/article1947210.html http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/...
    - wavefunction 12y ago
      I "get" how he could end up in a military tribunal because "laws be-damned" but not sure what sort of tortuous logic they could use to justify that. He was a civilian when he committed his acts so I believe he would legally be facing a civilian court system. I agree "national security" would be invoked to hush it all up but it would certainly add to the body of evidence that the people in charge got to go.
      - CoreSet 12y ago
        I think they could make some tortured legal case that because he was working as a security contractor with a certain clearance and had access to XX information and signed XXX legal release forms, he could be tried as a member of the military. Or heck, name him an "enemy combatant" and just detain him indefinitely in some Polish blacksite. People will forget his name in time.
        dragonwriter 12y ago
        > I think they could make some tortured legal case that because he was working as a security contractor with a certain clearance and had access to XX information and signed XXX legal release forms, he could be tried as a member of the military. The Supreme Court has already struck down, on constitutional grounds, application of the UCMJ to military contractors deployed with the military on foreign military missions, under express language in the UCMJ applying it to them (the motivation for the Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act, which applied US federal civilian criminal law that otherwise applies within the US territorial and special maritime jurisdiction to them.) So I don't see that argument surviving the inevitable habeas petition. > Or heck, name him an "enemy combatant" and just detain him indefinitely in some Polish blacksite. People will forget his name in time. Not in time to mitigate the short term political consequences of being seen disappearing him.
    - r00fus 12y ago
      Prosecution isn't the goal. It's to make an example of him. Rotting in solitary while the court case slowly plays out is likely just as good for the supposedly aggrieved as a victory in court with the subsequent incarceration.
- shepardrtc 12y ago
  After a little while in court he'll just get really stressed out and commit suicide.
  - bhayden 12y ago
    Suicide by two shots to the back of the head.
    - anigbrowl 12y ago
      Infowars is that way -->
- bashinator 12y ago
  Given just the amateur research on remote-exploiting automobile control systems for auto-parking and such, I'd be astonished if the CIA didn't have plenty of experience in using modern cars as a weapon to kill the driver.
CoreSet 12y ago
I don't understand how he ever believes he could get a fair trial. I commend him for the belief in the rule of law that the sentiment represents, but he embarrassed the world's most powerful intelligence establishment - you know, the people responsible for killing people who want to kill us in secretive ways. There's nothing I'd consider out of bounds for possible retaliation, not even a "heart attack" or "engine problems."
- moe 12y ago
  not even a "heart attack" or "engine problems." At this point, what would anyone gain from that?
  - guard-of-terra 12y ago
    There is this idea that some people just have to retaliate, regardless of whether it is in their interest. They have to show they're still in the game - more important than near objectives in the said game. This may or may not apply to the situation.
  - flurpitude 12y ago
    Revenge. http://www.buzzfeed.com/bennyjohnson/americas-spies-want-edward-snowden-dead http://www.buzzfeed.com/bennyjohnson/americas-spies-want-edw...
    - CoreSet 12y ago
      “I would love to put a bullet in his head,” one Pentagon official, a former special forces officer, said bluntly. “I do not take pleasure in taking another human beings life, having to do it in uniform, but he is single-handedly the greatest traitor in American history.” Chilling
      - bhayden 12y ago
        Also love how they are completely ignoring the people who have literally assassinated a president.
IceyEC 12y ago
I think that part of what he desires is to be able to make any defense that he wants. As stated in CitizenFour and again in his AMA, a defense in this case would be severely limited in what it could claim, because the case involves espionage, he would be unable to make a defense claiming that the actual laws are unjust, for example.
rayiner 12y ago
Source for "secret courts" that try U.S. citizens? Even citizens captured fighting against the U.S. in Afghanistan were transferred to regular courts once their citizenship became apparent. The FISA court is no such thing. It was created by Congress review execution action that doesn't Constitutionally require judicial oversight in the first place. It's not empowered to try people for crimes or anything of the sort.
- shit_parade 12y ago
  "disposition matrix", although I don't think getting on that list even evolves a court, just an advisory panel made up people picked by the executive breach, but it is hard to know for sure since it is all considered secret. EDIT: how about a counter argument instead of reflexive down votes -- yeah it sucks our government kills US citizens without much due process but that's the truth, try not to avert your eyes.
  - harryh 12y ago
    I think that most people are comfortable with the idea that if you join a foreign militia and take up arms against the United States you forfeit certain protections of citizenship. Certainly not everyone agrees with this but that's the counter argument you asked for.
    - shit_parade 12y ago
      How about Abdulrahman al-Awlaki or Samir Khan? I suppose they didn't even get the semblance of due process, just were at the wrong place at the wrong time. EDIT: parent asked for a source for secret courts, the "disposition matrix" is just that, except it doesn't even involve the judicial branch only the executive and has resulted in the deaths of 3 Americans, one purposely and two 'accidentally' whether killing Americans on purpose or on accident is worse or better I'll leave as an exercise for the readers imagination.
      - harryh 12y ago
        Neither of those people were intentionally killed. Certainly we can argue about larger strategy and when the cost of collateral damage is worth military action but that discussion is orthogonal to one about a loss of due process.

jkot 12y ago

Only way for him to return is presidential pardon. Not going to happen.

TillE 12y ago
It's not inconceivable. I have very little faith in the personal integrity of Obama, but his last acts as President would happen after the election of his successor. If he wanted to do it, people would whine about it for a few months and forget long before the next election.
yid 12y ago
Could happen. Look at Clinton's last-day pardon record. I wouldn't rule out something similar for Obama on his last day in office.

mathattack 12y ago

He probably stands a better shot of a deal with Obama, rather than whichever administration comes next. I think Hilary had a lot of egg on her face with the leaks (though using public email is her own fault!) and the Republicans would crucify him. I think it's now or never for him.

fixxer 12y ago
obama has used the espionage act more than any other president.
- taylorwc 12y ago
  Really? Source?
  - fixxer 12y ago
    google it; there are many http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jan/10/jake-tapper/cnns-tapper-obama-has-used-espionage-act-more-all-/ http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jan/10/...
  - grey-area 12y ago
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/06/obama-abuse-espionage-act-mccarthyism http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/06/obama-a... https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/18/destroyed-by-the-espionage-act/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/18/destroyed-by-t... http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jan/10/jake-tapper/cnns-tapper-obama-has-used-espionage-act-more-all-/ http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jan/10/...
  - fargolime 12y ago
    To get sources, I highlighted the sentence, right-clicked and chose Search Google for...
    - taylorwc 12y ago

fargolime 12y ago

The average American thinks an arrest is tantamount to guilt; one of many signs of this is that mugshots are made public here. Snowden should stay exiled.

andrewrice 12y ago
Well, technically, he is guilty.
- fargolime 12y ago
  So was Rosa Parks. We have a whistleblower law, along with a gov't oath to defend the Constitution, that potentially trumps other laws. So his prison potential isn't so clear.
  - msandford 12y ago
    > defend the Constitution, that potentially trumps other laws I can't see how it couldn't trump other laws! Think about it. If you can pass a new law which trumps the Constitution via a method that doesn't involve a Constitutional amendment, then you've just done an end-run around the theoretically supreme law of the land. And if you can do that, the Constitution is completely meaningless. The whole point of the document is that it outlines some bedrock stuff and it's neigh impossible to change unless everyone in the country really agrees that it needs to via a 3/4 majority of the states ratifying. I would argue that the Constitution absolutely overrides laws to the contrary and we see this play out all the time with the Supreme Court. Things get struck down all the time as unconstitutional and that's the end of it. I can't see how the founding document of our government can somehow be subverted by other laws unless those laws are deemed as important via ratification.
    - fargolime 12y ago
      > I would argue that the Constitution absolutely overrides laws to the contrary We're agreeing with each other? It's up to each person who takes an oath to defend the Constitution, to ignore and even fight against unconstitutional laws, i.e. ones that in an ideal world would be overridden by a fair Supreme Court. Couldn't reply earlier due to "you're posting too fast" limitation, even after a day. I may have to wait several days to reply again.

exelius 12y ago

I'm guessing his situation in Russia has deteriorated to the point where a US prison is preferable to staying in Russia. I'd say best case for him is 10 years in jail. Because there is almost no question that he broke the law; he will be arguing intent and conscientiousness. His chief demand will likely be that the government not charge him under the espionage act, which is so broad and inflexible it would not even allow him to present a defense. No idea what other legal statutes he could be charged under, but whatever they are would have to at least allow the possibility of raising the "I did this in the best interests of the country, not the best interests of our military contractors and bureaucrats" defense. Oh, and also that the trial will be a media circus and keep the NSAs surveillance programs in the news for the greater part of the next decade.

slantedview 12y ago
> I'm guessing his situation in Russia has deteriorated to the point where a US prison is preferable to staying in Russia That may be the case, but keep in mind, in some way this story isn't news. Snowden has always said he'd like to come home. That hasn't changed.
- exelius 12y ago
  I completely agree; the timing is curious to me though. Given how savvy he and his team (i.e. the reporters he's been working with) are with manipulating the media, I wouldn't be surprised if this is just becoming public because the US is entering into a presidential election cycle. IMO the best political outcome for the democrats would be to have Obama pardon him as part of the presidential pardons every president issues on his last day in office. Bush actually gave last-day pardons to people accused of much more dangerous leaks of classified information (the whole Valerie Plame scandal), so it's not unprecedented.
CoreSet 12y ago
Knowing that he would be treated unfairly and seeking that treatment just the same precisely to expose that unfairness makes me respect him even more.
12y ago

rhokstar 12y ago

This would be a perfect movie.

mousa 12y ago

I'd be worried about staying in Moscow right now if I were Snowden. Whether true or not, Russian government is acting fully confident that Nemstov was killed as a false flag. If they get a little more angry about accusations the "CIA" might kill Snowden just to prove a point.

comrade1 12y ago

I wouldn't be surprised if something else is happening. While his lawyer 'negotiates' look for snowden to turn up in a different extradition-free country. I think he's too smart to believe any platitudes about a "fair trial." Of course it will be a fair trial, just like manning got along with his years of solitary - completely fair and normal. As for a presidential pardon, I don't think that can happen without a conviction. Can you get a preemptive pardon?

toomuchtodo 12y ago
> As for a presidential pardon, I don't think that can happen without a conviction. Can you get a preemptive pardon? He could be granted immunity by the Justice Department.
- happyscrappy 12y ago
  Do journalists already have a copy of everything he took? If not that could be a powerful negotiating tool.
  - adventured 12y ago
    Yes, it was given to a few journalists. The full document load is no longer in Snowden's possession.
swamp40 12y ago
>> As for a presidential pardon, I don't think that can happen without a conviction. Can you get a preemptive pardon? Worked for Ford and Nixon: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Proclamation_4311 http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Proclamation_4311
- maxerickson 12y ago
  I found this summary when it came up in a recent previous discussion: http://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/05/opinion/l-constitution-allows-pardons-before-conviction-590688.html http://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/05/opinion/l-constitution-all...

sxcurry 12y ago

Maybe he could get the same deal as Petraeus?

Someone1234 12y ago
What? The dude that had an affair? I don't understand the relevance of that or what point you're trying to make. Can you clarify?
- sxcurry 12y ago
  Petraeus reached a plea deal today for handing over classified material to his mistress. Looks like he'll get 2 years of probation.

kyledrake 12y ago

"Fugitive ex-U.S. spy Snowden in talks on returning home: lawyer" What a horrible, slanted, and incredibly unfactual title for this article. Of course he's negotiating. Why not?

slg 12y ago
Those words might be loaded, but they aren't wrong. He is wanted by the government to face criminal accusations therefore he is a fugitive. The word doesn't imply guilt of anything beyond not turning oneself in. He used to do work for the CIA and NSA therefore he is an ex-U.S. spy. The word spy is only being modified by ex-U.S., it isn't implying that he is a current spy or has worked for any other government.
zbowling 12y ago
Fugitive is correct. ex-Spy no. He was a network admin, not an analyst.
- nyolfen 12y ago
  he worked for the CIA with cover identities as well

maceo 12y ago

I doubt this has anything to do with his condition in Russia. I think its timed very nicely to coincide public sentiment in the US. A movie about his courageous acts just won an Oscar. Hundreds of news stories brought to light by his efforts have outraged the US public over the last couple years. Him and his team might be running low on hard-hitting stories and would rather deal with an Obama DOJ than whatever comes next. If he wishes to turn himself in, the time to act is in the next 3-6 months before the 2016 primaries heat up. If he returns to the US soon, we will see massive demonstrations in the street demanding his release. I doubt he'd end up serving more than a couple years in prison. Even then, life abroad is no doubt preferable to life in the federal pen. It's smart for him to be putting feelers out right now, but its still far from certain that he's coming stateside anytime soon.

atmosx 12y ago
Any specific reason why he should be spend some years in prison and not given a medal and a nobel prize for peace?
- krapp 12y ago
  Well, he did steal and leak state secrets, which is illegal. Absent a pardon by Obama, the government can't just pretend that didn't happen.
  - shitgoose 12y ago
    He stole and leaked evidence of state's illegal activities. If anything he deserves a medal. And state should go to jail. Oh, wait... State is running the jails. We may have problem here...
    - krapp 12y ago
      Killing someone is still a crime if it's in self defense - that's why we have trials, to weigh intent and consequence and such. What Snowden did can be justifiable, and still be a crime. Although I suppose it's a moot argument to make if one assumes no such thing as a fair trial can exist.

sambeau 12y ago

I hope he remembers to negotiate in regular trips to Glasgow University so he can finally carry out his function as Rector.

shit_parade 12y ago

unrelated question, but how does HN rank threads, at time of posting this thread has 89 points, 106 comments, and 1 hour but ranks in the 50s

belovedeagle 12y ago
Certain topics/keywords get penalized; I bet "Snowden" is one such keyword.

xlore 12y ago

Does the president, alone, have the ability to pardon him outright? Just thinking it certainly would be nice if Obama used that card on the way out given he's not up for re-election. I suppose he has to be convicted first, but maybe he could convict him and pardon him on the same day!!

dragonwriter 12y ago
> Does the president, alone, have the ability to pardon him outright? Yes.