7 ms·

Closing the Math Gap for Boys

46 points by wallflower 12y ago

hurin 12y ago
I wonder if the `control group` were students that did not want to be enrolled in the program (introducing significant bias into the results) or students selected randomly to be tracked and not enrolled or given such an opportunity (the ones 60% more likely to commit a violent crime).
- m_mueller 12y ago
  I wanted to say that as well - however in this particular case I'd say the ends justify the means if they get funding for more tutoring, even if their statistical methods are unsavoury.
  - tracker1 12y ago
    Many schools see a ratio of teachers to students around 25:1 (or higher).. they're talking about getting a ratio of 2:1 for even 1/6 of the school day... that's roughly the need for double the number of teachers/tutors over current needs. Of course there are other offsets. I'm not sure I'm completely with the economists on this one, but I can definitely see some of the points. I think doing something like this in the K-8 years would be far more effective than in the H.S. years where kids should start to be more independent. If cities could work with local businesses to allow STEM employees to volunteer (paid by the company) a couple days a month at a local school, in addition to getting parents to volunteer 2-3 days a month, this could get the coverage needed and starting at much younger ages before a lot of the issues start to settle in.
    - m_mueller 12y ago
      > If cities could work with local businesses to allow STEM employees to volunteer (paid by the company) a couple days a month at a local school, in addition to getting parents to volunteer 2-3 days a month, this could get the coverage needed and starting at much younger ages before a lot of the issues start to settle in. I think that's a great idea. Some management types can checkmark 'social responsibility' that someone added to the company's mission statement, and employees get to have some mini sabbatical and feel good about themselves, probably come back with more energy.
- rcheu 12y ago
  In the paper, they claim that the assignment was properly randomized. It seems like they got authorization to assign tutors to some students, and randomly assigned some percentage of the students tutors.
gwern 12y ago
> Here’s why you should pay close attention to this experiment. After just a single year in Chicago’s intensive tutoring and mentoring program, known as Match, participants ended up as much as two years ahead of students in a control group who didn’t get this help. A report that is being released Sunday by the University of Chicago Crime Lab also finds that they performed substantially better on the Chicago school system’s math test; their scores on the N.A.E.P. math exam reduced the usual black-white test score gap by a third. This success carried over to nonmath classes, where these students were less likely to fail. Greater success in math also helped get them on track to graduate. It also led them to become more engaged in school, and they were 60 percent less likely than members of the control group to be arrested for a violent crime. > I know of no initiative for disadvantaged young men of color that comes close. Neither do I. I look forward to the post-mortem explaining why this program will turn out to be a failure like all the others.
- ccvannorman 12y ago
  Programs that seek to better explain math will not last, I agree. What is needed is to change the kids' MINDSET about math. How do we make them WANT it? They've already decided it's boring and difficult.
  - chii 12y ago
    they didn't 'decide' it was boring, it was taught without any context, and the average kid did not have the imagination to be able to know how useful math is going to be. Basically, instead of teaching, i think the school ciriculunm should try to pique the interest of the students, and make them intrinsically motivated to find out more. How to do this depends on how good their teachers are, and atm, not many teachers can do this even if they want to, because they are required to teach a certain amount of 'standard' stuff, and leaves not much room for the teacher's own brand/style.
- sukilot 12y ago
  Why would you--what?
  - 12y ago
ps4fanboy 12y ago
Not just minorities the gap between boys and girls in education increases every year.
- zxcdw 12y ago
  Have you, or someone else, got a source for this or articles/studies done? Not questioning it, just curious.
  - pbhjpbhj 12y ago
    PISA is a long term comparative study of child education in about 60-70 countries including USA; http://www.oecd.org/pisa/aboutpisa/ http://www.oecd.org/pisa/aboutpisa/ The 2012 results for USA, http://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/pisa-2012-results.htm http://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/pisa-2012-results.htm, for Maths, Reading and Science show the gender gap to be better than the average with a trend towards constancy; ie contrary to the GP's claim. However, I wouldn't want to say on my cursory view of their summaries that the GP was wrong.
  - malnourish 12y ago
    This is about to be slightly off topic, but: You don't need to apologize for questioning. You should be encouraged to question. I've noticed this trend lately (some here, often on askscience/historians) where people preemptively apologize for asking for sources. Just because you question their sources does not mean you are personally attacking them.
m3talridl3y 12y ago
We should just let the math gender gap go until it counteracts the gender gap in STEM employment.
- zxcdw 12y ago
  This would benefit who exactly?
  - CmonDev 12y ago
    Other countries for instance.
- unknownian 12y ago
  The gender gap in certain sectors is a problem, but this is also a problem. I have no doubt that strong feminists don't want to see boys (even white ones) doing worse as a whole from a young age.
  - golemotron 12y ago
    This is more of a problem than the gender gap. The gender gap is largely due to differences in interests. You'll see the same sort of gap in nursing, auto repair, primary education, construction and number of other occupations. If it's down to interests it's not clear it will ever be solved completely. Maybe that's okay.
    - jacalata 12y ago
      Why is this gap more of a problem? Maybe boys just aren't interested in math, the same way they are naturally not interested in nursing.
      - golemotron 12y ago
        That hasn't been the case historically. It's good to ask what has changed.
      - 12y ago
sandworm 12y ago
Does anyone really find it surprising that close instruction by people of similar age, who actually know math, made a difference? I remember my math teachers. I remember them talking down to us. I remember teaching myself how to handle quadratic equations after being made to look a fool in class. I also remember the joy of programming my first HP-48sx graphing calculator (donated to me when I got into an AP math 11 course). Like the old speak-and-spell, that little machine never insulted me, never said I wasn't trying hard enough. Math became easy. I still miss R-P notation. Look at this from the UK a few years ago. Most teachers were found to lack basic math skill. I doubt US/Canadian teachers are any different. "Only one third of the teachers tested for a Channel 4 Dispatches documentary were able to calculate that 1.4 divided by 0.1 is 14, while only four out of 10 could work out that 2.1 per cent of 400 is 8.4. " http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/7236780/Primary-teachers-fail-basic-maths-test.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/7236780/P... "Fewer than four out of 10 of those who sat the test – designed for 11-year-olds – could calculate 2.1% of 400, and only a third answered correctly that 1.4 divided by 0.1 was 14. Overall, four out of ten scored 40% or below, only one got all the answers correct and the average mark was 12 out of 27 or 45%." http://www.theguardian.com/education/2010/feb/14/primary-teachers-fail-maths-tests http://www.theguardian.com/education/2010/feb/14/primary-tea...
CmonDev 12y ago
It's a glaring case of gender inequality! They should obviously use positive discrimination to make sure that average grades are equal.

46 points by wallflower 12y ago

hurin 12y ago

I wonder if the `control group` were students that did not want to be enrolled in the program (introducing significant bias into the results) or students selected randomly to be tracked and not enrolled or given such an opportunity (the ones 60% more likely to commit a violent crime).

m_mueller 12y ago
I wanted to say that as well - however in this particular case I'd say the ends justify the means if they get funding for more tutoring, even if their statistical methods are unsavoury.
- tracker1 12y ago
  Many schools see a ratio of teachers to students around 25:1 (or higher).. they're talking about getting a ratio of 2:1 for even 1/6 of the school day... that's roughly the need for double the number of teachers/tutors over current needs. Of course there are other offsets. I'm not sure I'm completely with the economists on this one, but I can definitely see some of the points. I think doing something like this in the K-8 years would be far more effective than in the H.S. years where kids should start to be more independent. If cities could work with local businesses to allow STEM employees to volunteer (paid by the company) a couple days a month at a local school, in addition to getting parents to volunteer 2-3 days a month, this could get the coverage needed and starting at much younger ages before a lot of the issues start to settle in.
  - m_mueller 12y ago
    > If cities could work with local businesses to allow STEM employees to volunteer (paid by the company) a couple days a month at a local school, in addition to getting parents to volunteer 2-3 days a month, this could get the coverage needed and starting at much younger ages before a lot of the issues start to settle in. I think that's a great idea. Some management types can checkmark 'social responsibility' that someone added to the company's mission statement, and employees get to have some mini sabbatical and feel good about themselves, probably come back with more energy.
rcheu 12y ago
In the paper, they claim that the assignment was properly randomized. It seems like they got authorization to assign tutors to some students, and randomly assigned some percentage of the students tutors.

gwern 12y ago

> Here’s why you should pay close attention to this experiment. After just a single year in Chicago’s intensive tutoring and mentoring program, known as Match, participants ended up as much as two years ahead of students in a control group who didn’t get this help. A report that is being released Sunday by the University of Chicago Crime Lab also finds that they performed substantially better on the Chicago school system’s math test; their scores on the N.A.E.P. math exam reduced the usual black-white test score gap by a third. This success carried over to nonmath classes, where these students were less likely to fail. Greater success in math also helped get them on track to graduate. It also led them to become more engaged in school, and they were 60 percent less likely than members of the control group to be arrested for a violent crime. > I know of no initiative for disadvantaged young men of color that comes close. Neither do I. I look forward to the post-mortem explaining why this program will turn out to be a failure like all the others.

ccvannorman 12y ago
Programs that seek to better explain math will not last, I agree. What is needed is to change the kids' MINDSET about math. How do we make them WANT it? They've already decided it's boring and difficult.
- chii 12y ago
  they didn't 'decide' it was boring, it was taught without any context, and the average kid did not have the imagination to be able to know how useful math is going to be. Basically, instead of teaching, i think the school ciriculunm should try to pique the interest of the students, and make them intrinsically motivated to find out more. How to do this depends on how good their teachers are, and atm, not many teachers can do this even if they want to, because they are required to teach a certain amount of 'standard' stuff, and leaves not much room for the teacher's own brand/style.
sukilot 12y ago
Why would you--what?
- 12y ago

ps4fanboy 12y ago

Not just minorities the gap between boys and girls in education increases every year.

zxcdw 12y ago
Have you, or someone else, got a source for this or articles/studies done? Not questioning it, just curious.
- pbhjpbhj 12y ago
  PISA is a long term comparative study of child education in about 60-70 countries including USA; http://www.oecd.org/pisa/aboutpisa/ http://www.oecd.org/pisa/aboutpisa/ The 2012 results for USA, http://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/pisa-2012-results.htm http://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/pisa-2012-results.htm, for Maths, Reading and Science show the gender gap to be better than the average with a trend towards constancy; ie contrary to the GP's claim. However, I wouldn't want to say on my cursory view of their summaries that the GP was wrong.
- malnourish 12y ago
  This is about to be slightly off topic, but: You don't need to apologize for questioning. You should be encouraged to question. I've noticed this trend lately (some here, often on askscience/historians) where people preemptively apologize for asking for sources. Just because you question their sources does not mean you are personally attacking them.

m3talridl3y 12y ago

We should just let the math gender gap go until it counteracts the gender gap in STEM employment.

zxcdw 12y ago
This would benefit who exactly?
- CmonDev 12y ago
  Other countries for instance.
unknownian 12y ago
The gender gap in certain sectors is a problem, but this is also a problem. I have no doubt that strong feminists don't want to see boys (even white ones) doing worse as a whole from a young age.
- golemotron 12y ago
  This is more of a problem than the gender gap. The gender gap is largely due to differences in interests. You'll see the same sort of gap in nursing, auto repair, primary education, construction and number of other occupations. If it's down to interests it's not clear it will ever be solved completely. Maybe that's okay.
  - jacalata 12y ago
    Why is this gap more of a problem? Maybe boys just aren't interested in math, the same way they are naturally not interested in nursing.
    - golemotron 12y ago
      That hasn't been the case historically. It's good to ask what has changed.
    - 12y ago

sandworm 12y ago

Does anyone really find it surprising that close instruction by people of similar age, who actually know math, made a difference? I remember my math teachers. I remember them talking down to us. I remember teaching myself how to handle quadratic equations after being made to look a fool in class. I also remember the joy of programming my first HP-48sx graphing calculator (donated to me when I got into an AP math 11 course). Like the old speak-and-spell, that little machine never insulted me, never said I wasn't trying hard enough. Math became easy. I still miss R-P notation. Look at this from the UK a few years ago. Most teachers were found to lack basic math skill. I doubt US/Canadian teachers are any different. "Only one third of the teachers tested for a Channel 4 Dispatches documentary were able to calculate that 1.4 divided by 0.1 is 14, while only four out of 10 could work out that 2.1 per cent of 400 is 8.4. " http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/7236780/Primary-teachers-fail-basic-maths-test.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/7236780/P... "Fewer than four out of 10 of those who sat the test – designed for 11-year-olds – could calculate 2.1% of 400, and only a third answered correctly that 1.4 divided by 0.1 was 14. Overall, four out of ten scored 40% or below, only one got all the answers correct and the average mark was 12 out of 27 or 45%." http://www.theguardian.com/education/2010/feb/14/primary-teachers-fail-maths-tests http://www.theguardian.com/education/2010/feb/14/primary-tea...

CmonDev 12y ago

It's a glaring case of gender inequality! They should obviously use positive discrimination to make sure that average grades are equal.