8 ms·

Here's a story for you. I'm not a party to any of this. I've done nothing wrong, I've never been suspected of doing anything wrong, and I don't know anyone who

Here's a story for you. I'm not a party to any of this. I've done nothing wrong, I've never been suspected of doing anything wrong, and I don't know anyone who has done anything wrong. I don't even mean that in the sense of "I pissed off the wrong people but technically haven't been charged." I mean that I am a vanilla, average, 9-5 working man of no interest to anybody. My geographical location is an accident of my birth. Even still, I wasn't accidentally born in a high-conflict area, and my government is not at war. I'm a sysadmin at a legitimate ISP and my job is to keep the internet up and running smoothly. This agency has stalked me in my personal life, undermined my ability to trust my friends attempting to connect with me on LinkedIn, and infected my family's computer. They did this because they wanted to bypass legal channels and spy on a customer who pays for services from my employer. Wait, no, they wanted the ability to potentially spy on future customers. Actually, that is still not accurate - they wanted to spy on everybody in case there was a potentially bad person interacting with a customer. After seeing their complete disregard for anybody else, their immense resources, and their extremely sophisticated exploits and backdoors - knowing they will stop at nothing, and knowing that I was personally targeted - I'll be damned if I can ever trust any electronic device I own ever again. You all rationalize this by telling me that it "isn't surprising", and that I don't live in the [USA,UK] and therefore I have no rights. I just have one question. Are you people even human? [1]https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/14/nsa-stellar/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/14/nsa-stellar/ [2]https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/13/belgacom-hack-gchq-inside-story/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/13/belgacom-hack-...

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
alecco 12y ago
Indeed, Obama and US congress made it clear we foreign people are just fair game for targeting. At least I'm lucky not to live in a country where targeted assassinations are going on. Also, it's pretty obvious terrorism is an excuse. The main reason is power and control. Corporate espionage and controlling US-unfriendly political movements is very likely the main goal.
- AndrewKemendo 12y ago
  >we foreign people are just fair game for targeting That's not exactly true in that not every non-U.S. citizen is an interest to the U.S. Government. To your broader point though, the idea that a state's Security, Defense or Military arms are singularly focused on foreign "threats" or potential threats is a fundamental assumption of nearly every international relations theory. Why would you think it would be otherwise?
  - alextgordon 12y ago
    What the US is doing is extraordinary, mainly because it is the only country with the resources to run the operation that it's running, but also because everybody seems to be infected with fear. If we were talking about Georgia, or Israel, or Ukraine, or Japan, I would understand the fear. But the USA has no enemies, there are no threats. It's a tragic case of paranoia.
    - AndrewKemendo 12y ago
      But the USA has no enemies, there are no threats. I am interested in how you came to this conclusion.
      - alextgordon 12y ago
        I'd be interested to know who you think is a threat! The US has two borders. One with Canada, one with Mexico. Neither of these countries are likely to invade. The US has the largest naval force in the world. I believe the Coastguard is also the 13th largest. Again, nothing to fear. Of the countries that are "enemies", most would quite like to improve relations, for instance Cuba and Iran. Iran in particular has extended many an olive branch over the decades. The US keeps these countries around as notional enemies, in part because of political incompetence, and in part because of a lack of incentive to fix things. Who wants to be the President who made friends with an "Islamic Republic"? Either way, it's hard to see what particular danger the US is in. Compare this to any of the countries I mentioned, which are much less defended, and have active disputes with neighbouring countries.
pekk 12y ago
What do you think that nation-states do?
- meepmorp 12y ago
  Don't break the circlejerk.
- rational-future 12y ago
  What do you think you're doing right now?
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
tacoman 12y ago
I read this post a dozen times. As a sysadmin for a sizable ISP in a non-US/UK country, the Belgacom story has haunted me. Is this the first time you've talked about it?
- edwinyzh 12y ago
  FWIW, this is my first time reading this. Some stories worth spreading.
- lawnchair_larry 12y ago
  My story isn't about me. It's a hypothetical based on things that have actually been done to someone else.
  - happyscrappy 12y ago
    Taken as gospel and voted to the top by the gullible, good stuff.
  - CyberDildonics 12y ago
    So the whole thing is a lie? Who was it done to?
    - lawnchair_larry 12y ago
      Confirmed to have happened to employees of Belgacom and Stellar PCS, and the fact that the technique itself is documented with a codename suggests it happens to others who weren't leaked.
stiffled 12y ago
Welcome to my world. "You all rationalize this by telling me that it "isn't surprising", and that I don't live in the [USA,UK] and therefore I have no rights." This is because Americans are naive enough to think we have rights. And I was once one of the fools that thought this was a free country until what made us similar happened to me. And anyone who thinks that they are 2 far removed to be affected by this is in for a rude awakening that I don't wish on anyone and if we don't open peoples eyes 2 how close it is to them before it happens to them they will find out for themselves when it's a moot point. So my question to you is how do you let go and move past something as violating as this? It is rape of epic proportions!
karmacondon 12y ago
This agency gathered information on you, attempted to friend you on linkedin and infected your family's computer. I don't think any of those actions warrant accusations of inhumanity. I can understand that it's disturbing to feel that you're being stalked, or even just monitored. But it doesn't sound like anyone took action to intervene in your private affairs or intentionally lead you to feel threatened. It's legal and at least arguably moral to hire a private investigator to follow a private citizen around, so long as they follow certain rules. Attempting to friend someone on linkedin under false pretenses is also legal and arguably moral. Infecting a computer with a virus is not legal as far as I know, but I think the real concern there is the nature of the software and not it's existence. As long as they did not harm, the morality of even infecting a computer is questionable. These people are spies, their job is to spy. To them at least, it isn't a question of the rights granted to you by your citizenship status. It's a tradeoff between the emotional discomfort that you may feel and their job requirement to develop resources that will allow them to stop bad people from doing bad things. I think they made the right decision. If influencing an employee at an ISP can give them more insight into the capability and intent of people they suspect to be up to no good, and the main cost is the distress that said employee or employees will feel as a result of being spied upon, then do it. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. I understand that we disagree on that, and there is ample room for both sides of the disagreement to be right or one of them to be utterly wrong. But I don't think that either decision is inhumane in any way.
- stiffled 12y ago
  Much like trying to comprehend what it is like to be a parent when you are not a parent. You will not grasp how clueless you were about it until you become one.
- maximilian2 12y ago
  >Infecting a computer with a virus... As long as they did not harm, the morality of even infecting a computer is questionable. This is bullshit. Even if a virus doesn't intentionally harm, it does anyway harm. Connections will become very slow, because high priority is given to uploading stuff from one's computer to nsa. User will get inexpicable blue screens or exotic error messages that nobody can help to fix: asking for help in forums will just bring annoying answers of "experts" suggesting to upgrade Windows/Flash/HW/programs versions. Installation or execution of some programs will be prevented, making computer usage a pain. Infecting a computer is legally and morally a crime.
mh_ 12y ago
Agree completely.. When the docs first leaked, I wrote this: https://medium.com/@haroonmeer/why-discussions-on-cyber-snooping-have-been-so-painful-for-us-f77088fd4c28 https://medium.com/@haroonmeer/why-discussions-on-cyber-snoo...
VooDoo6Actual 12y ago
PANARCHY
VooDoo6Actual 12y ago
PANARCHY
jokoon 12y ago
If government money can put people on the moon for military or security reasons, they will easily be able to spy on you no matter what if the same motives apply. It's not a matter of humanity, society often puts itself before individuals to make sure society can exists the longest it can. A civilization will easily sacrifice many things to secure its survival. That's how the strongest defend themselves, it's very hard to stay on top for a long time, so often, those countries will take huge leap of faith and risks to crush their enemies, even if they're on the other side of the world. If you're an american, you have free speech, and all the democracy and the things around it. If you're outside America, you better be an ally or look like one. Intelligence agencies are a lot about crushing people who might make america look bad, it's about public image, it's almost the same job of a journalist, except you defend your country's interests. Survival of the fittest. Democracy is just internal management.
returnofthejedi 12y ago
Star Wars The Empire Strikes Back.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WASr5-mS238 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WASr5-mS238 But do we know how this ends?
lawnchair_larry 12y ago
Note: This story is meant to reference the two examples listed, and isn't my personal story. It is someone's story, and has almost certainly happened to many others who are unaware, given the MO described in the leaks. I would not be surprised to find out that it has happened to me, but I don't think that is the case. I can't edit anymore to clarify, but since it's not obvious from the post, especially if you don't read the references: I'm not either of the individuals who this happened to.
smokingsalmon 12y ago
Hello.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

alecco 12y ago

Indeed, Obama and US congress made it clear we foreign people are just fair game for targeting. At least I'm lucky not to live in a country where targeted assassinations are going on. Also, it's pretty obvious terrorism is an excuse. The main reason is power and control. Corporate espionage and controlling US-unfriendly political movements is very likely the main goal.

AndrewKemendo 12y ago
>we foreign people are just fair game for targeting That's not exactly true in that not every non-U.S. citizen is an interest to the U.S. Government. To your broader point though, the idea that a state's Security, Defense or Military arms are singularly focused on foreign "threats" or potential threats is a fundamental assumption of nearly every international relations theory. Why would you think it would be otherwise?
- alextgordon 12y ago
  What the US is doing is extraordinary, mainly because it is the only country with the resources to run the operation that it's running, but also because everybody seems to be infected with fear. If we were talking about Georgia, or Israel, or Ukraine, or Japan, I would understand the fear. But the USA has no enemies, there are no threats. It's a tragic case of paranoia.
  - AndrewKemendo 12y ago
    But the USA has no enemies, there are no threats. I am interested in how you came to this conclusion.
    - alextgordon 12y ago
      I'd be interested to know who you think is a threat! The US has two borders. One with Canada, one with Mexico. Neither of these countries are likely to invade. The US has the largest naval force in the world. I believe the Coastguard is also the 13th largest. Again, nothing to fear. Of the countries that are "enemies", most would quite like to improve relations, for instance Cuba and Iran. Iran in particular has extended many an olive branch over the decades. The US keeps these countries around as notional enemies, in part because of political incompetence, and in part because of a lack of incentive to fix things. Who wants to be the President who made friends with an "Islamic Republic"? Either way, it's hard to see what particular danger the US is in. Compare this to any of the countries I mentioned, which are much less defended, and have active disputes with neighbouring countries.

pekk 12y ago

What do you think that nation-states do?

meepmorp 12y ago
Don't break the circlejerk.
rational-future 12y ago
What do you think you're doing right now?

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

tacoman 12y ago

I read this post a dozen times. As a sysadmin for a sizable ISP in a non-US/UK country, the Belgacom story has haunted me. Is this the first time you've talked about it?

edwinyzh 12y ago
FWIW, this is my first time reading this. Some stories worth spreading.
lawnchair_larry 12y ago
My story isn't about me. It's a hypothetical based on things that have actually been done to someone else.
- happyscrappy 12y ago
  Taken as gospel and voted to the top by the gullible, good stuff.
- CyberDildonics 12y ago
  So the whole thing is a lie? Who was it done to?
  - lawnchair_larry 12y ago
    Confirmed to have happened to employees of Belgacom and Stellar PCS, and the fact that the technique itself is documented with a codename suggests it happens to others who weren't leaked.

stiffled 12y ago

Welcome to my world. "You all rationalize this by telling me that it "isn't surprising", and that I don't live in the [USA,UK] and therefore I have no rights." This is because Americans are naive enough to think we have rights. And I was once one of the fools that thought this was a free country until what made us similar happened to me. And anyone who thinks that they are 2 far removed to be affected by this is in for a rude awakening that I don't wish on anyone and if we don't open peoples eyes 2 how close it is to them before it happens to them they will find out for themselves when it's a moot point. So my question to you is how do you let go and move past something as violating as this? It is rape of epic proportions!

karmacondon 12y ago

This agency gathered information on you, attempted to friend you on linkedin and infected your family's computer. I don't think any of those actions warrant accusations of inhumanity. I can understand that it's disturbing to feel that you're being stalked, or even just monitored. But it doesn't sound like anyone took action to intervene in your private affairs or intentionally lead you to feel threatened. It's legal and at least arguably moral to hire a private investigator to follow a private citizen around, so long as they follow certain rules. Attempting to friend someone on linkedin under false pretenses is also legal and arguably moral. Infecting a computer with a virus is not legal as far as I know, but I think the real concern there is the nature of the software and not it's existence. As long as they did not harm, the morality of even infecting a computer is questionable. These people are spies, their job is to spy. To them at least, it isn't a question of the rights granted to you by your citizenship status. It's a tradeoff between the emotional discomfort that you may feel and their job requirement to develop resources that will allow them to stop bad people from doing bad things. I think they made the right decision. If influencing an employee at an ISP can give them more insight into the capability and intent of people they suspect to be up to no good, and the main cost is the distress that said employee or employees will feel as a result of being spied upon, then do it. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. I understand that we disagree on that, and there is ample room for both sides of the disagreement to be right or one of them to be utterly wrong. But I don't think that either decision is inhumane in any way.

stiffled 12y ago
Much like trying to comprehend what it is like to be a parent when you are not a parent. You will not grasp how clueless you were about it until you become one.
maximilian2 12y ago
>Infecting a computer with a virus... As long as they did not harm, the morality of even infecting a computer is questionable. This is bullshit. Even if a virus doesn't intentionally harm, it does anyway harm. Connections will become very slow, because high priority is given to uploading stuff from one's computer to nsa. User will get inexpicable blue screens or exotic error messages that nobody can help to fix: asking for help in forums will just bring annoying answers of "experts" suggesting to upgrade Windows/Flash/HW/programs versions. Installation or execution of some programs will be prevented, making computer usage a pain. Infecting a computer is legally and morally a crime.

mh_ 12y ago

Agree completely.. When the docs first leaked, I wrote this: https://medium.com/@haroonmeer/why-discussions-on-cyber-snooping-have-been-so-painful-for-us-f77088fd4c28 https://medium.com/@haroonmeer/why-discussions-on-cyber-snoo...

VooDoo6Actual 12y ago

PANARCHY

VooDoo6Actual 12y ago

PANARCHY

jokoon 12y ago

If government money can put people on the moon for military or security reasons, they will easily be able to spy on you no matter what if the same motives apply. It's not a matter of humanity, society often puts itself before individuals to make sure society can exists the longest it can. A civilization will easily sacrifice many things to secure its survival. That's how the strongest defend themselves, it's very hard to stay on top for a long time, so often, those countries will take huge leap of faith and risks to crush their enemies, even if they're on the other side of the world. If you're an american, you have free speech, and all the democracy and the things around it. If you're outside America, you better be an ally or look like one. Intelligence agencies are a lot about crushing people who might make america look bad, it's about public image, it's almost the same job of a journalist, except you defend your country's interests. Survival of the fittest. Democracy is just internal management.

returnofthejedi 12y ago

Star Wars The Empire Strikes Back.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WASr5-mS238 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WASr5-mS238 But do we know how this ends?

lawnchair_larry 12y ago

Note: This story is meant to reference the two examples listed, and isn't my personal story. It is someone's story, and has almost certainly happened to many others who are unaware, given the MO described in the leaks. I would not be surprised to find out that it has happened to me, but I don't think that is the case. I can't edit anymore to clarify, but since it's not obvious from the post, especially if you don't read the references: I'm not either of the individuals who this happened to.

smokingsalmon 12y ago

Hello.