16 ms·

Je Suis Charlie

586 points by drallison 12y ago

sarciszewski 12y ago
My belief is that, when something like this happens, we need a strong show of solidarity with the victim. If you are (or know) a journalist, please consider publishing some of the Charlie Hebdo satirical cartoons, unredacted and uncensored, in your coverage of this story. Terrorists may be able to kill some of us, but they can't kill all of us.
- sarciszewski 12y ago
  Looks like I'm not alone in this belief: https://twitter.com/MadAxes/status/552814382338826240 https://twitter.com/MadAxes/status/552814382338826240
ankurpatel 12y ago
Can someone explain what this is suppose to mean? I know there were attacks in Paris.
- petercooper 12y ago
  It's a variant of the "We are all.." trope to show solidarity and support for a group.
- Raphmedia 12y ago
  It reads "I am Charlie", and there are bunch of translations in the PDF. I don't know what the site is about. Edit: Alright, the domain is the actual domain of Charlie Hebdo. This isn't some kind of political message by a third party but most likely a message by the people of Charlie Hebdo. I don't know any more.
  - pierre 12y ago
    charliehebdo.fr is the official website of charlie hebdo magazine where the shooting take place.
  - mercurial 12y ago
    Solidarity with the French satirical newspaper Charlie Hebdo, in relation with today's terrorist attack (12 dead so far).
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- manticore_alpha 12y ago
  "We are Charlie" Your EQ is low, isn't it?
  - Raphmedia 12y ago
    It's actually "I" and not "We".
    - manticore_alpha 12y ago
      The spirit of the saying is a group, leave it to HN to demand a literal translation.
  - voidiac 12y ago
    That would be "Nous sommes Charlie".
  - mikeash 12y ago
    It's likely that the person you're replying to didn't know the details of the attack or how it has anything to do with "Charlie." But hey, jumping straight to a personal attack instead of an explanation says volumes about your EQ.
  - TallGuyShort 12y ago
    >> leave it to HN to demand a literal translation. after you "corrected" a perfectly good translation?
- venomsnake 12y ago
  Well ... this is satirical magazine that puts offensive content on purpose (not pointlessly though) and they had their headquarters attacked and 10 personal killed (also 2 police officers). They were notorious for mocking all religions and have posted content offensive to all. Right now it is thought that this was the work on islamist terrorists (I have not seen reliable info though, and crazy is cross religion) Now to make matters worse the right is on the rise in Europe and the interfaith tensions are high due to complex reasons (being in economic depression for a decade helps little). In a sense this was attack against the core values of what lots of Europe believes. And there are a lot of people for which anti muslim sentiment is a godsend ...
  - agumonkey 12y ago
    Tiny detail, one of the cops that was killed on duty was a Muslim man named Ahmed. Hoping this will help avoiding the racist crowd to take advantage of the event too much.
    - rimantas 12y ago
      Islam is a race as much as atheism is a race.
      - agumonkey 12y ago
        Please don't misunderstand my comment, I'm saying this crowd will conflate the two.
      - coldtea 12y ago
        Well, actually much more. If you tell me you're atheist I don't know much about your race. If you tell me you're a muslim, I can have a very good statistical chance to pinpoint you in one of several ethnicities...
        maxharris 12y ago
        > If you tell me you're a muslim, I can have a very good statistical chance to pinpoint you in one of several ethnicities... So what? A person's race doesn't determine the ideas, religious or otherwise, that they hold. Two famous examples: Ayaan Hirsi Ali left Islam, and Cat Stevens joined it. A person's ideas, on the other hand, make all the difference in the world. Who can deny that these terrorists were not motivated and guided by a distinct ideology: fundamentalist Islam?
robteix 12y ago
I wonder if the debate in the media will focus on religious fanaticism or if they'll start victim blaming by arguing that Charlie Hebdo was asking for it, being provocative.
- petercooper 12y ago
  The FT already started with the latter: http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2015/01/07/financial-times-declares-charlie-hebdo-stupid-for-editorial-foolishness/ http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2015/01/07/financial...
  - mercer 12y ago
    > Charlie Hebdo has a long record of mocking, baiting and needling French Muslims. If the magazine stops just short of outright insults, it is nevertheless not the most convincing champion of the principle of freedom of speech How is explicitly challenging those who oppose free speech not the best way to be a 'champion of the principle of free speech'?
  - mercurial 12y ago
    Ridiculous, cowardly, and wrong. Charlie Hebdo is left-wing, and is fairly even handed when it comes to mockery.
    - daeken 12y ago
      Even if they weren't even-handed, it wouldn't change a thing. They could be publishing a newspaper named "Fuck Muhammad" and it'd still be equally wrong for them to have been attacked in this way. I'm not entirely sure why we coddle religious fanatics as we do, but it needs to stop for us to progress as a society.
      - mercurial 12y ago
        Oh, I agree, it's just that the impression the FT tries to give ("Charlie Hebdo, the newspaper specialized in Muslim-baiting") is wrong. Hopefully nobody reading this thinks it's entirely reasonable to shoot people for a drawing.
jknz 12y ago
For some context, the wikipedia page is still updated every few minutes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting
gouggoug 12y ago
Some context for people wondering what this is about. Wednesday 7th, at 11am, 3 people entered "Charlie Hebdo" a very well known French satirical newspaper and shot 12 people with kalashnikov. Charlie Hebdo is also known, for their caricatures of the prophet Mahomet. "Je Suis Charlie" means, "I Am Charlie" and is a message of support to the newspaper. This is obviously a very short sum-up.
- dankohn1 12y ago
  And "Je Suis Charlie" echoes Kennedy's famous line: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner
  - nkantar 12y ago
    Please tell me "Charlie" refers to something hilarious, much like "ein Berliner" meant "a donut", more/less. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mu02xUgE4k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mu02xUgE4k (Don't mean to take away from the gravity of the situation — merely wanted to share a good laugh.)
    - arrrg 12y ago
      (That's irrelevant. However, it's also an urban legend. Be rest assured that no one in Kennedy's German audience was even for a second confused and didn't understand exactly what he meant. He was perfectly clear. Even if you argue that his choice of words is grammatically questionable – something I disagree with and I think it works quite well as an emphasis and makes it clear that he is speaking figuratively and not simply declaring that he is from Berlin or was born in Berlin – the context of his speech and the preceding sentence as well as the sentence itself make it crystal clear what he is talking about and also insures that no one is thinking of baked things.)
      - mitchty 12y ago
        Yep, Kennedy had his speech prepared by a native German speaker. There was no confusion. An equivalent(ish) English example would be saying "I am a New Yorker." Does it mean you literally are a Reuben (or New Yorker Sandwich)? Hell no, it is plainly obvious that is a ludicrous interpretation even without grammatical context of the rest of the speech.
krig 12y ago
This is horrible, and we as a society need to somehow make this kind of thing not happen. I have no idea what that means in practice, though. It seems everything that has been tried so far has only escalated the hatred and strengthened the extremists. Also, at a time like this it is important not to forget that the last major terrorist attack in Europe was instigated by a fundamentalist christian norwegian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik But it's hard not to get swept up in it right now. I too want to _do something_. The question is, what? How is freedom of speech best defended in the face of unreasonable people who have no limits to what they are prepared to do?
- daeken 12y ago
  > How is freedom of speech best defended in the face of unreasonable people who have no limits to what they are prepared to do? By everyone continuing to utilize their freedom of speech. It's really that simple. The only way to lose is to not make use of your freedom.
  - aaronem 12y ago
    Being murdered for what you say seems like, if not precisely losing, then being at least removed from the board.
    - daeken 12y ago
      People being murdered is a shame, but the only way that it can stifle freedom of speech is if we let it. Obviously the person(s) murdered lose their ability to exercise that freedom when they're murdered, but the point is to continue pushing forward as a whole. Doing that requires us to all decide to continue to utilize our freedom.
      - lhnz 12y ago
        As long as the number of people that choose to exercise their freedom of expression does not fall you are right. Let's just hope that people do not begin to follow extremist muslim law out of fear for their lives.
creamyhorror 12y ago
BBC coverage: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30710883 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30710883 I am outraged at the enormity of the murders, but I can't see a simple solution given the significant presence of extremists. Their brazen acts know no limits; what then are governments to do? In my country, Singapore (which has a significant Muslim population), we have a relative lack of incidents or conflict, but the government also maintains tight control that probably wouldn't be feasible in Europe (clarification: meaning that mosques and madrasahs are regulated and overseen by an Islamic Council that is part of government). [edited]
- happyscrappy 12y ago
  Are you implying that you need to have tight control of citizens if you have a significant Muslim population? Somehow the US doesn't have this problem within the Muslim community.
  - klibertp 12y ago
    What? I don't live there, I've never even been to USA so I know nearly nothing I can be spectacularly wrong. However, if even 1/10 of what I read about TSA, Patriot Act, NSA and so on (and on...) is true then I think there is at least some degree of control over Muslim citizens? Isn't it actually an official policy?
  - icebraining 12y ago
    Somehow the US doesn't have this problem within the Muslim community. Really? What about the 2009 Fort Hood shooting, the 2010 Times Square car bombing attempt and the Boston Marathon bombings? Also, the US certainly keeps a close - often oppressive - watch over its Muslim community. This American Life had an episode about it: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/471 http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/471 (See also the AP prize-winning investigation that TAL mentions on the NYPD probes into the city's mosques)
    - happyscrappy 12y ago
tokenadult 12y ago
Posted on my Facebook wall immediately. Thanks for sharing the link. Earlier today, I was searching for news stories about the shooting incident in Paris that would actually show the cartoons published by Charlie Hebdo to establish context for how cowardly and despicable the shooting was. Most English-language press outlets are not showing the cartoons. A comment on one news site pointed out that Spanish-language media are generally not being so gutless today, so I linked a slideshow from El Pais[1] on my Facebook wall so that my friends could see that the shooting is all about suppressing free speech. [1] http://elpais.com/elpais/2015/01/07/album/1420632020_829679.html#1420632020_829679_1420645001 http://elpais.com/elpais/2015/01/07/album/1420632020_829679....
- happyscrappy 12y ago
  The appropriate response is print blasphemous cartoons in every paper in the free world. Do they think they can kill everyone?
  - longlivegnu 12y ago
    the appropriate response is to change the culture
  - klibertp 12y ago
    Dunno, but they sure as hell will try...
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    I think cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad may be in the process of being introduced to a certain Barbra Streisand.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- grownseed 12y ago
  Thanks for sharing this. For context, the picture says: - top-left: "Mahomet overwhelmed by fundamentalists" - in the speech bubble: "It's hard to be loved by dumbasses" (the meaning of "con" is hard to convey in certain cases, it has this idea of "nefariously idiotic" - translating it to "cunt" wouldn't do it justice I believe) In any case, this is all very alarming. I hope nobody submits to the threats, as is the point of "Je suis Charlie". I also feel for all the Muslims who will end up being discriminated against for the actions of a few imbeciles.
hyp0 12y ago
"Je n'ai pas peur des représailles. Je n'ai pas de gosses, pas de femme, pas de voiture, pas de crédit. ça fait sûrement un peu pompeux, mais je préfère mourir debout que vivre à genoux." - Charb, one of the murdered satirists "I am not afraid of retaliation. I have no kids, no wife, no car, no mortgage. It surely is a bit dramatic but I'd rather die on my feet, than live on my knees" - translation from http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/2rmgra/these_two_cartoonists_for_french_magazine_charle/cnh9haw http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/2rmgra/these_two_carto...
- baby 12y ago
  note that everyone is quoting Charb on this, sometimes just quoting the "I'd rather die on my feet, than live on my knees" that is actually him quoting someone else: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Emiliano_Zapata http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Emiliano_Zapata
  - julie1 12y ago
    weired in my old greek lessons it was already said to be the motto of Athen. http://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/3824 http://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/3824 Maybe Zappata went to school and studied the story of Athen?
    - _almosnow 12y ago
      Cars and mortgages... the Greeks sure were really ahead of their time. Edit: Yeah sure, downvote me instead of the guy that is posting nonsense...
    - burkaman 12y ago
      Did you mean to link to a different page? That one doesn't have anything like the Zapata quote.
      - majestic1211 12y ago
        There is not the Zappata quote, but it still seems relevant : "Finally, for the Homeric hero, aretê consisted of a set of qualities clustered around the readiness to fight a beautiful war and die a beautiful death." "preferring to die in their own land rather than live to dwell in that of others"
mercer 12y ago
My heart sunk as soon as I heard the terrorists were muslim extremists, as here in Holland anti-immigrant and anti-muslim feelings are very present, and these incidents are fuel on the fire of racism here. I really, really hope that people from different muslim communities speak up as well. In past incidents there was a lot of silence, usually prompted by fear (I suspect). I understand if they don't, but I hope they do.
- pierrec 12y ago
  Agreed. The potential backlash against innocent French and European Muslims is one of the scariest things in these events. France is full of closeted (and not-so-closeted) islamophobic fascists, and this attack of violence against words is almost guaranteed to cause some of them to unite and multiply their aggressiveness and stupidity. It is not a good day for the Muslim world.
  - mercer 12y ago
    I've been involved with some projects involving muslim cultural centers here, and I've spent a large part of my life in a country that was largely muslim. While I have many issues with Islam, and while I see how predominantly secular Western (European?) culture clashes with many of it's values, I found the experience of 'muslim culture' (which I do realize is not homogenous) almost uniformly enriching. I have a number of friends who have spent a lot of time in the Middle-East, and they feel the same way. It frustrates me to see the non-specific, general anger against muslims in my country, and how shrewd right-wing politicians use this for support. I hope that I won't have to show support to both sides against extremism, but I fear the worst. This situation really scares me, as it was not too long ago that one of our prominent right-wing politicians (Geert Wilders) exclaimed 'do we want more or less moroccans', followed by a chanting of 'less' by his supporters.
  - vixen99 12y ago
    Perhaps this is the reason and I can't understand what the problem is myself. http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/01/what-if-these-lone-wolves-werent-moderate-muslims/ http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/01/what-if-these-lone-wolves-w...
baby 12y ago
I believe these are papers you can print to show irl. There are meetings everywhere in France right now and people are displaying those printed papers. on Facebook everybody is changing their profile picture to this image.
alexhughes 12y ago
Is the "je suis charliec a virus planted by Isis? Where did it originate?
lotsofmangos 12y ago
محمد السباحة
alexhughes 12y ago
Is the " je suis charlie " pdf an Isis hack?
- simbilou 12y ago
  Of course not. What makes you think it is?
  - Jayd2014 12y ago
    Not sure I understand your question. PS: What does [Flagkilled] mean?, I see it at the end of my post.
alexhughes 12y ago
Is the je suis charlie pdf an isis hack? A planted virus?
alexhughes 12y ago
Is the je suis charlie pdf an isis hack? A planted virus?
Thiz 12y ago
Never a better time to bring back the guillotine.
- fra 12y ago
  Nope! L'amour plus fort que la haine. http://madvilletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/charlie-hebdo-cover.jpg http://madvilletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/charlie-...
fra 12y ago
There is a gathering in SF being organized on Facebook. Tonight, 7pm in front of the French consulate. https://www.facebook.com/events/1562482893969481/?pnref=story https://www.facebook.com/events/1562482893969481/?pnref=stor... #JeSuisCharlie
discardorama 12y ago
308 points in 2 hours and 121 comments... and listed at #24. Ranked below stories like: 2. 121 points, 3 hours ago , 26 comments 3. 69 points , 2 hours ago , 22 comments 5. 138 points, 4 hours ago , 33 comments 8. 80 points , 4 hours ago , 28 comments 9. 46 points , 3 hours ago , 10 comments 10. 56 points , 3 hours ago , 19 comments Looks like it's being flagged left and right. Why? What if, instead of Charlie, it was some Internet startup? Freedom of speech is important to all of us. Martin Niemoller's "First they came for the Communists...." comes to mind: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller
- arcatek 12y ago
  Submissions about this story have been flagkilled all day. I guess that it's to prevent abuses, but as you say, we are all affected. I think it's important to have a single main thread about this.
  - InclinedPlane 12y ago
    Either some folks don't want to see "news" on HN at all or they are flagging it because they don't like the specific subject or are afraid of the conversation that will result.
- boracay 12y ago
  I'll upvote something that actually discusses how this effects our freedom rather than just some "let's all be upset". As far as I know western politicians have been far more effective at undermining our freedom and increasing extremism than the terrorists could ever have been on their own.
  - TillE 12y ago
    The Juan Cole article is easily the best thing I've read so far, but I still don't think HN would produce any useful discussion about it. http://www.juancole.com/2015/01/sharpening-contradictions-satirists.html http://www.juancole.com/2015/01/sharpening-contradictions-sa...
meapix 12y ago
I'm a muslim and I found most of cartoons by Charlie Hebdo funny, however the cartoon about the prophet didn't upset me at all but was not funny. It did however trigger something: this is how people actually see this religion, a bomb on a prophet's head. The reality is what makes something funny or not. Should this be the end of making funny of anything or raising questions/ideas, no. However a journalist's job is not to upset people but to cross the line then come back and bring some people with him/her: convince. All my condolences to those affected by this tragedy from Ottawa, Canada.
- vixen99 12y ago
  It's not a journalist's job to upset people? What a strange opinion and who do you suppose should judge?
  - meapix 12y ago
    it is still an opinion (you know free speech). I assume in a civilized world, when you make a statement that upset somebody, you apologize. Something like http://xkcd.com/814 http://xkcd.com/814
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
alcion0558 12y ago
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alcion0558 12y ago
!!!EXCLUSIEF religies. MOORDENAAR VAN EUROPA EN ... !!!!EXCLUSIVE RELIGIONS. KILLER OUT OF EUROPE AND ... !!!!RELIGIONS exclusive. KILLER OUT DE L'EUROPE ET ... !!!!¡¡¡¡ RELIGIONES EXCLUYENTES Y ASESINAS... FUERA DE EUROPA YA...!!!! SI NO QUEREMOS SER : EURABIA
Techbrunch 12y ago
I hope they are not gonna use this as an excuse to pass new laws to increase surveillance.
- mekoka 12y ago
  They might. But you do know that new laws usually come with a shield and a sword. More often than none, a few more laws also means a few less liberties. That's usually how terrorism wins.
eumenides1 12y ago
I disagree with actually all the comics. I don't think anybody is "charlie" in those comics. Everyone is saying they are "charlie", but nobody is "charlie" because none of those comics are depicting the prophet mohammed as charlie clearly would have.
Jayd2014 12y ago
A Muslim here. > the moderate muslims are often rather quiet. Yes we are. But there are a few reasons for that: 1- First, Muslims can't be put in one group, there is 1.6 billion muslims worldwide with hundreds of different views and levels of tolerance. 2- Most of them don't have time or are too busy with their daily life. Think about the % of people who go vote every four years in a democracy. 30% maybe 50% at max vote, the rest can't be bothered because they are busy with their daily problems. Add to that that most Muslims live in a third world country, so they have enough problems already. 3- The first people affected by terrorism in term of body counts and extremism in general are Muslims themselves. Did you know for example that ISIS consider the previous president of egypt (Mursi) who is from the muslim brotherhood to be an infidel who need to be killed. 4- People in Muslim countries are getting numb to all this news reports because they are used to it. I remember when I was a kid watching Arab TV news showing people dying in Palestine and at one time the TV commentator laughed. She then said she was sorry and she didn't mean to laugh at what was happening. Most Arabs/Muslim who care about what's going on the Middle East have already watched too much death to react to it. 5- Some people do want to go to the street and demonstrate against this blood shed but they are not allowed by their local governments. They fear that this could turn in a revolt. Arab spring says hi. 6- There have been hundreds if not thousands of condemnation an protests by muslims all over the world but the media don't cover them much because they don't fit the narrative of evil muslims. Me as a Muslim I'm ashamed of what is happening and wish this Scumbugs are captured and put to justice. I see to much politic invested in terrorism that I know it's about power not about religion. I also do believe we muslims failed big time to adapt to the 21st century and need to wake up and get our acts together. I'm really sorry for the families of the victims and I hope they capture the scums who did this. There was an interesting discussion on reddit about this: http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/2rmmx8/eli5_if_most_muslims_disagree_with_the_actions_of/ http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/2rmmx8/el...
_almosnow 12y ago
I honestly want to know how is it allowed for someone to humiliate and make fun of something that is sacred to other people/culture. 'Free speech' I know, but when does someone's right to express themselves ends? Doesn't (or shouldn't) it has its limits? There are many other instances where you can't get away with something just because it is free speech. How come guys like Julian Assange are not protected under 'free speech'? How about people who sign NDA's? How come it would be heavily criticized (and probably illegal) for a newspaper to start running weekly cartoons where they make fun of the black population in America, depicting them with the all the token representations and slurs that are now widely accepted as 'racist'? I really want to know what's different, what's permissible, what isn't. Are there some written rules about this or is it just the result of how things are perceived by the majority of the public (i.e. what we like vs what we don't)? Disclaimer: I'm not muslim, I don't sympathise with their religion and neither I'm trying to condone what happened. I made up an example with black people because that's a very sensitive and controversial issue in the US, but the intent is not to spark controversy around racism and the likes. I'm probably going to be downvoted into oblivion but I want to know if at least I get an intelligent point of view to these issues.
- schoen 12y ago
  There's absolutely nothing illegal in the U.S. about insulting or disparaging black people, or members of any racial, ethnic, or religious group, including by slurs or caricatures.
  - _almosnow 12y ago
    Apparently there is... [1] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_excep...
    - schoen 12y ago
      Which of those categories are you thinking of?
baby 12y ago
By the way here's a picture of the demonstration in Lyon: http://i.imgur.com/VPzOGTt.jpg http://i.imgur.com/VPzOGTt.jpg
kbarre123 12y ago
There's nothing to discuss, really. I'm not going to convince you. You're not going to convince me. Steve's not going to convince Akbar, and Akbar's not going to convince Omkar. Nobody's ever read an internet comment and thought, "Holy shit, @deeznutz420 is right. My religion IS a total crock of shit! Well I'll be..." What happened is terrible. It'll happen again, and no amount of pontificating or "nation-building" or foreign aide is going to change the fact that some people hate other people because they're different because their parents raised them to be that way. This is not a religious thing, it's a human thing. Whites in the US killed black people all the time, not too long ago mind you, simply because they were different. And they worshipped the same freaking god!
- tach4n 12y ago
  > "Holy shit, @deeznutz420 is right. My religion IS a total crock of shit! Actually that happens all the time - the reverse happens too of course.
osehgol 12y ago
I dont think this discussion belongs here, just read the Economist article and be done with it. It makes an excellent point for Islamist to modernize and "the others" to realize all Abrahamic religions had taboos http://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2015/01/johnson-blasphemy http://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2015/01/johnson-blas...
chasealias 12y ago
Matt Sullivan ✔ @sullduggery Follow "An assault on democracy": Thursday @guardian front page with former Le Monde editor Natalie Nougayrède #CharlieHebdo
questerzen 12y ago
Attacks in two of my home cities (Paris and Sydney) in recent weeks affecting people I am closely connected to. It is truly heartbreaking. It makes me very proud that in both cities, people refuse to accept these actions as anything but the actions of inexcusable murderers; and in both cases people have made use of the internet to share a positive message of hope and solidarity (Je Suis Charlie / IllRideWithYou). When I grew up in London during the IRA bombings, no such channel existed and the message was a very negative one issued by the government and echoed by the broadcast media. What a difference it makes that the general population now have a channel to direct the way these actions are viewed, communicated and reflected back to the perpetrators. Yes, now we ARE all Charlie.
_cipher_ 12y ago
Nice. While Philae landed in a comet after a ~10 year trip, some people still killing each other because they believe/insulted an imaginary god. sigh Don't get me wrong. Almost every big religion did the same (crusaders anyone?). But for me, this kind of behavior (regardless the religion), leads me to believe that these people are Uruk-Hai in human form. 2015 and instead of chosing to actually educate people, that sh*t keeps happenning.
chasealias 12y ago
I'd rather die on my feet, than live on my knees. As quoted in Liberation Theologies in North America and Europe‎ (1979) by Gerald H. Anderson and Thomas F. Stransky, p. 281; this is sometimes misattributed to the more modern revolutionary, Che Guevara, and to "La Pasionaria" Dolores Ibárruri, especially in Spain, where she popularized it in her famous speeches during the Spanish Civil War, to José Martí, and to Aeschylus who is credited with a similar declaration in Prometheus Bound: "For it would be better to die once and for all than to suffer pain for all one's life." The phrase "better that we should die on our feet rather than live on our knees" was spoken by François-Noël Gracchus Babeuf in his defence of the Conspiracy of Equals in April 1797. In French it read, 'Ne vaut-il pas mieux emporter la glorie de n'avoir pas survecu a la servitude?' but transliterated this bears no resemblance whatever to the quote under discussion. see: The Defense of Gracchus Babeuf Before the High Court of Vendome (1967), edited and translated by John Anthony Scott, p. 88 and p. 90, n. 12. Spanish variants: ¡Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado! I'd prefer to die standing, than to live always on my knees. As quoted in Operación Cobra : historia de una gesta romántica (1988) by Alvaro Pablo Ortiz and Oscar Lara, p. 29 Variant translations: Men of the South! It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees! With an extension, as quoted in Timeless Mexico (1944) by Hudson Strode, p. 259 I would rather die standing than live on my knees! It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees! I prefer to die standing than to live forever kneeling. Prefer death on your feet to living on your knees. La tierra es de quien la trabaja con sus manos. The land belongs to those who work it with their hands. Quoted as a slogan of the revolutionaries in Shirt-Sleeve Diplomat (1947) Vol. 5, p. 199, by Josephus Daniels, and specifically attributed to Zapata by Ángel Zúñiga in 1998, as quoted in Mexican Social Movements and the Transition to Democracy (2005), by John Stolle-McAllister Ignorance and obscurantism have never produced anything other than flocks of slaves for tyranny. Remarks in regard to Pancho Villa, as quoted in The Unknown Lore of Amexem's Indigenous People : An Aboriginal Treatise (2008) by Noble Timothy Myers-El, p. 158
rurban 12y ago
It might be an unpopular opinion, but "I am not Charlie". Even as atheist, some of those Mohammed caricatures are not funny or satire, they are simply over the line. Not just juvenile, silly or stupid. In most other countries they would be forbidden. E.g. this one from 2010, who caused the stir and death threat. http://torstenh.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/CH8.jpg http://torstenh.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/CH8.jpg France has a different liberal, explicit anti-clerical and anti-censorship tradition. The US and scandanavian countries also. But elsewhere it would be illegal. Compare them to similar Jesus caricatures, e.g. http://www.zensur-archiv.de/index.php?title=Satire http://www.zensur-archiv.de/index.php?title=Satire It's a fine line and in some cases german Titanic covers were allowed. "Ein Strafverfahren wurde von der Frankfurter Staatsanwaltschaft mit dem Verweis auf die "Satire" und deren Mittel der "Verzerrung" und Übertreibung" abgelehnt. (Sdt. 24./25.4.2010)" The legal situation in Germany and Austria: § 5 explicitly states to respect the religious beliefs of the population. In addition to the insults of religious faiths (§ 166 para. 1 of the Criminal Code). Anybody who explicitly agrees with Charlie Hebdo and posts images will probably fall under these paragraphs in those countries.
- johnchristopher 12y ago
  I believe the narrative behind the meme don't imply that one agrees with what Charlie Hebdo said or how it said it. I believe it's more along the lines of `you only silenced one voice, not our voices` or `I died a little too, even if I don't agree with Charlie Hebdo stances`. edit: the meme originally came from the charliehebdo website. I'd venture to guess that they mean `you didn't kill Charlie. Charlie is everyone`. edit 2: nope, I am wrong according to WP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Je_suis_Charlie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Je_suis_Charlie And that's why memes and absolutes suck.
- chernevik 12y ago
  Yeah, well, hate speech laws are themselves a pretty bad idea. Today it's "say nothing blasphemous about the Prophet" and then it's "say nothing blasphemous about the leading scholars". The cartoon controversy was started by Jyllands-Posten not because they wanted to offend Muslims, but because they believed that discourse about Islam and its role in society was being constrained by self-censorship and fear. Their purpose was to open that discourse by re-establishing the right of free speech. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/17/AR2006021702499.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02... The effort might have been dismissed as a juvenile stunt and an unnecessary provocation if the response had been a lot of angry criticism. The violence that has instead followed demonstrates the validity of their concern, and the necessity of their provocation.
random123456 12y ago
Throw-away account for obvious reasons: The problem with fanatics is just that: they're illogically fanatical about their beliefs. They're blindly driven by an ideology and can't be reasoned with, much less asked to sit at a table to discuss their grievances and concerns. It bears noticing that while "Charlie" spoke out for the right of freedom of expression, he did so in a culture where that was only permissible within a context that the French found suitable [0]. While crazy and murderous acts are impossible to excuse--and should be condemned--it's hard to understand why people are surprised when the chickens come home to roost. That's what chickens do. We are all Charlie, but apparently only if we choose to fully assimilate and not carry on with any religious or traditional customs others might find offensive. 0 - http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28106900 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28106900
fbhat 12y ago
I'm a muslim and here's my perspective on what happened in Paris. The attack on Charlie Hebdo is an absolute travesty. My heart goes out to the cartoonists, columnists, editors, policemen, and other innocent victims. Absolute freedom of speech is a human right. From Paris to Riyadh, anyone is free to draw and publish cartoons of the Prophet and any aspect of Islam that they disagree with. Not only should critical discourse be tolerated, it should be welcomed, for it leads to introspection and self-betterment. I believe that a majority of muslims living in the west would agree with me. Many might have been offended by the cartoons, but one does not choose to live in a free society if they can't handle opposing points of view. Unfortunately, this doesn't come through in the statements of muslim "representativates" on TV who are quick to condone acts of violence but seem hesitant to categorically dismiss the ideological basis for the violence (i.e. the cartoons shouldn't have been published). This is probably because their jobs depend on carefully towing a line between religious ideology and political correctness. Again, I don't think the cartoons are an issue for msot muslims in the west. I suspect the motivation behind the gruesome attacks in Paris might have been to make them a bigger issue, with the ultimate objective of sowing internal discord and recruiting more troublemakers. Perhaps the perpetrators play upon the expectation that the public discourse will inevitably drift to "why are muslims violent and dangerous and opposed to cartoons of the prophet?". Young mulsims will inevitably face this discourse in schools, in the press, on TV, and may eventually start to believe it and feel isolated. This might mold them into targets for further brainwashing and recruitment. I think that we, as a society, need to get a lot better at understanding these criminal motivations. Forcefully reacting to these acts of violence is simply not enough. If we fail to control the discourse, I'm afraid such violence is likely to continue.

586 points by drallison 12y ago

My belief is that, when something like this happens, we need a strong show of solidarity with the victim. If you are (or know) a journalist, please consider publishing some of the Charlie Hebdo satirical cartoons, unredacted and uncensored, in your coverage of this story. Terrorists may be able to kill some of us, but they can't kill all of us.

sarciszewski 12y ago
Looks like I'm not alone in this belief: https://twitter.com/MadAxes/status/552814382338826240 https://twitter.com/MadAxes/status/552814382338826240

ankurpatel 12y ago

Can someone explain what this is suppose to mean? I know there were attacks in Paris.

petercooper 12y ago
It's a variant of the "We are all.." trope to show solidarity and support for a group.
Raphmedia 12y ago
It reads "I am Charlie", and there are bunch of translations in the PDF. I don't know what the site is about. Edit: Alright, the domain is the actual domain of Charlie Hebdo. This isn't some kind of political message by a third party but most likely a message by the people of Charlie Hebdo. I don't know any more.
- pierre 12y ago
  charliehebdo.fr is the official website of charlie hebdo magazine where the shooting take place.
- mercurial 12y ago
  Solidarity with the French satirical newspaper Charlie Hebdo, in relation with today's terrorist attack (12 dead so far).
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
manticore_alpha 12y ago
"We are Charlie" Your EQ is low, isn't it?
- Raphmedia 12y ago
  It's actually "I" and not "We".
  - manticore_alpha 12y ago
    The spirit of the saying is a group, leave it to HN to demand a literal translation.
- voidiac 12y ago
  That would be "Nous sommes Charlie".
- mikeash 12y ago
  It's likely that the person you're replying to didn't know the details of the attack or how it has anything to do with "Charlie." But hey, jumping straight to a personal attack instead of an explanation says volumes about your EQ.
- TallGuyShort 12y ago
  >> leave it to HN to demand a literal translation. after you "corrected" a perfectly good translation?
venomsnake 12y ago
Well ... this is satirical magazine that puts offensive content on purpose (not pointlessly though) and they had their headquarters attacked and 10 personal killed (also 2 police officers). They were notorious for mocking all religions and have posted content offensive to all. Right now it is thought that this was the work on islamist terrorists (I have not seen reliable info though, and crazy is cross religion) Now to make matters worse the right is on the rise in Europe and the interfaith tensions are high due to complex reasons (being in economic depression for a decade helps little). In a sense this was attack against the core values of what lots of Europe believes. And there are a lot of people for which anti muslim sentiment is a godsend ...
- agumonkey 12y ago
  Tiny detail, one of the cops that was killed on duty was a Muslim man named Ahmed. Hoping this will help avoiding the racist crowd to take advantage of the event too much.
  - rimantas 12y ago
    Islam is a race as much as atheism is a race.
    - agumonkey 12y ago
      Please don't misunderstand my comment, I'm saying this crowd will conflate the two.
    - coldtea 12y ago
      Well, actually much more. If you tell me you're atheist I don't know much about your race. If you tell me you're a muslim, I can have a very good statistical chance to pinpoint you in one of several ethnicities...
      - maxharris 12y ago
        > If you tell me you're a muslim, I can have a very good statistical chance to pinpoint you in one of several ethnicities... So what? A person's race doesn't determine the ideas, religious or otherwise, that they hold. Two famous examples: Ayaan Hirsi Ali left Islam, and Cat Stevens joined it. A person's ideas, on the other hand, make all the difference in the world. Who can deny that these terrorists were not motivated and guided by a distinct ideology: fundamentalist Islam?

robteix 12y ago

I wonder if the debate in the media will focus on religious fanaticism or if they'll start victim blaming by arguing that Charlie Hebdo was asking for it, being provocative.

petercooper 12y ago
The FT already started with the latter: http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2015/01/07/financial-times-declares-charlie-hebdo-stupid-for-editorial-foolishness/ http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2015/01/07/financial...
- mercer 12y ago
  > Charlie Hebdo has a long record of mocking, baiting and needling French Muslims. If the magazine stops just short of outright insults, it is nevertheless not the most convincing champion of the principle of freedom of speech How is explicitly challenging those who oppose free speech not the best way to be a 'champion of the principle of free speech'?
- mercurial 12y ago
  Ridiculous, cowardly, and wrong. Charlie Hebdo is left-wing, and is fairly even handed when it comes to mockery.
  - daeken 12y ago
    Even if they weren't even-handed, it wouldn't change a thing. They could be publishing a newspaper named "Fuck Muhammad" and it'd still be equally wrong for them to have been attacked in this way. I'm not entirely sure why we coddle religious fanatics as we do, but it needs to stop for us to progress as a society.
    - mercurial 12y ago
      Oh, I agree, it's just that the impression the FT tries to give ("Charlie Hebdo, the newspaper specialized in Muslim-baiting") is wrong. Hopefully nobody reading this thinks it's entirely reasonable to shoot people for a drawing.

jknz 12y ago

For some context, the wikipedia page is still updated every few minutes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting

gouggoug 12y ago

Some context for people wondering what this is about. Wednesday 7th, at 11am, 3 people entered "Charlie Hebdo" a very well known French satirical newspaper and shot 12 people with kalashnikov. Charlie Hebdo is also known, for their caricatures of the prophet Mahomet. "Je Suis Charlie" means, "I Am Charlie" and is a message of support to the newspaper. This is obviously a very short sum-up.

dankohn1 12y ago
And "Je Suis Charlie" echoes Kennedy's famous line: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner
- nkantar 12y ago
  Please tell me "Charlie" refers to something hilarious, much like "ein Berliner" meant "a donut", more/less. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mu02xUgE4k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mu02xUgE4k (Don't mean to take away from the gravity of the situation — merely wanted to share a good laugh.)
  - arrrg 12y ago
    (That's irrelevant. However, it's also an urban legend. Be rest assured that no one in Kennedy's German audience was even for a second confused and didn't understand exactly what he meant. He was perfectly clear. Even if you argue that his choice of words is grammatically questionable – something I disagree with and I think it works quite well as an emphasis and makes it clear that he is speaking figuratively and not simply declaring that he is from Berlin or was born in Berlin – the context of his speech and the preceding sentence as well as the sentence itself make it crystal clear what he is talking about and also insures that no one is thinking of baked things.)
    - mitchty 12y ago
      Yep, Kennedy had his speech prepared by a native German speaker. There was no confusion. An equivalent(ish) English example would be saying "I am a New Yorker." Does it mean you literally are a Reuben (or New Yorker Sandwich)? Hell no, it is plainly obvious that is a ludicrous interpretation even without grammatical context of the rest of the speech.

krig 12y ago

This is horrible, and we as a society need to somehow make this kind of thing not happen. I have no idea what that means in practice, though. It seems everything that has been tried so far has only escalated the hatred and strengthened the extremists. Also, at a time like this it is important not to forget that the last major terrorist attack in Europe was instigated by a fundamentalist christian norwegian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik But it's hard not to get swept up in it right now. I too want to _do something_. The question is, what? How is freedom of speech best defended in the face of unreasonable people who have no limits to what they are prepared to do?

daeken 12y ago
> How is freedom of speech best defended in the face of unreasonable people who have no limits to what they are prepared to do? By everyone continuing to utilize their freedom of speech. It's really that simple. The only way to lose is to not make use of your freedom.
- aaronem 12y ago
  Being murdered for what you say seems like, if not precisely losing, then being at least removed from the board.
  - daeken 12y ago
    People being murdered is a shame, but the only way that it can stifle freedom of speech is if we let it. Obviously the person(s) murdered lose their ability to exercise that freedom when they're murdered, but the point is to continue pushing forward as a whole. Doing that requires us to all decide to continue to utilize our freedom.
    - lhnz 12y ago
      As long as the number of people that choose to exercise their freedom of expression does not fall you are right. Let's just hope that people do not begin to follow extremist muslim law out of fear for their lives.

creamyhorror 12y ago

BBC coverage: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30710883 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30710883 I am outraged at the enormity of the murders, but I can't see a simple solution given the significant presence of extremists. Their brazen acts know no limits; what then are governments to do? In my country, Singapore (which has a significant Muslim population), we have a relative lack of incidents or conflict, but the government also maintains tight control that probably wouldn't be feasible in Europe (clarification: meaning that mosques and madrasahs are regulated and overseen by an Islamic Council that is part of government). [edited]

happyscrappy 12y ago
Are you implying that you need to have tight control of citizens if you have a significant Muslim population? Somehow the US doesn't have this problem within the Muslim community.
- klibertp 12y ago
  What? I don't live there, I've never even been to USA so I know nearly nothing I can be spectacularly wrong. However, if even 1/10 of what I read about TSA, Patriot Act, NSA and so on (and on...) is true then I think there is at least some degree of control over Muslim citizens? Isn't it actually an official policy?
- icebraining 12y ago
  Somehow the US doesn't have this problem within the Muslim community. Really? What about the 2009 Fort Hood shooting, the 2010 Times Square car bombing attempt and the Boston Marathon bombings? Also, the US certainly keeps a close - often oppressive - watch over its Muslim community. This American Life had an episode about it: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/471 http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/471 (See also the AP prize-winning investigation that TAL mentions on the NYPD probes into the city's mosques)
  - happyscrappy 12y ago

tokenadult 12y ago

Posted on my Facebook wall immediately. Thanks for sharing the link. Earlier today, I was searching for news stories about the shooting incident in Paris that would actually show the cartoons published by Charlie Hebdo to establish context for how cowardly and despicable the shooting was. Most English-language press outlets are not showing the cartoons. A comment on one news site pointed out that Spanish-language media are generally not being so gutless today, so I linked a slideshow from El Pais[1] on my Facebook wall so that my friends could see that the shooting is all about suppressing free speech. [1] http://elpais.com/elpais/2015/01/07/album/1420632020_829679.html#1420632020_829679_1420645001 http://elpais.com/elpais/2015/01/07/album/1420632020_829679....

happyscrappy 12y ago
The appropriate response is print blasphemous cartoons in every paper in the free world. Do they think they can kill everyone?
- longlivegnu 12y ago
  the appropriate response is to change the culture
- klibertp 12y ago
  Dunno, but they sure as hell will try...
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  I think cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad may be in the process of being introduced to a certain Barbra Streisand.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
grownseed 12y ago
Thanks for sharing this. For context, the picture says: - top-left: "Mahomet overwhelmed by fundamentalists" - in the speech bubble: "It's hard to be loved by dumbasses" (the meaning of "con" is hard to convey in certain cases, it has this idea of "nefariously idiotic" - translating it to "cunt" wouldn't do it justice I believe) In any case, this is all very alarming. I hope nobody submits to the threats, as is the point of "Je suis Charlie". I also feel for all the Muslims who will end up being discriminated against for the actions of a few imbeciles.

hyp0 12y ago

"Je n'ai pas peur des représailles. Je n'ai pas de gosses, pas de femme, pas de voiture, pas de crédit. ça fait sûrement un peu pompeux, mais je préfère mourir debout que vivre à genoux." - Charb, one of the murdered satirists "I am not afraid of retaliation. I have no kids, no wife, no car, no mortgage. It surely is a bit dramatic but I'd rather die on my feet, than live on my knees" - translation from http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/2rmgra/these_two_cartoonists_for_french_magazine_charle/cnh9haw http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/2rmgra/these_two_carto...

baby 12y ago
note that everyone is quoting Charb on this, sometimes just quoting the "I'd rather die on my feet, than live on my knees" that is actually him quoting someone else: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Emiliano_Zapata http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Emiliano_Zapata
- julie1 12y ago
  weired in my old greek lessons it was already said to be the motto of Athen. http://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/3824 http://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/3824 Maybe Zappata went to school and studied the story of Athen?
  - _almosnow 12y ago
    Cars and mortgages... the Greeks sure were really ahead of their time. Edit: Yeah sure, downvote me instead of the guy that is posting nonsense...
  - burkaman 12y ago
    Did you mean to link to a different page? That one doesn't have anything like the Zapata quote.
    - majestic1211 12y ago
      There is not the Zappata quote, but it still seems relevant : "Finally, for the Homeric hero, aretê consisted of a set of qualities clustered around the readiness to fight a beautiful war and die a beautiful death." "preferring to die in their own land rather than live to dwell in that of others"

mercer 12y ago

My heart sunk as soon as I heard the terrorists were muslim extremists, as here in Holland anti-immigrant and anti-muslim feelings are very present, and these incidents are fuel on the fire of racism here. I really, really hope that people from different muslim communities speak up as well. In past incidents there was a lot of silence, usually prompted by fear (I suspect). I understand if they don't, but I hope they do.

pierrec 12y ago
Agreed. The potential backlash against innocent French and European Muslims is one of the scariest things in these events. France is full of closeted (and not-so-closeted) islamophobic fascists, and this attack of violence against words is almost guaranteed to cause some of them to unite and multiply their aggressiveness and stupidity. It is not a good day for the Muslim world.
- mercer 12y ago
  I've been involved with some projects involving muslim cultural centers here, and I've spent a large part of my life in a country that was largely muslim. While I have many issues with Islam, and while I see how predominantly secular Western (European?) culture clashes with many of it's values, I found the experience of 'muslim culture' (which I do realize is not homogenous) almost uniformly enriching. I have a number of friends who have spent a lot of time in the Middle-East, and they feel the same way. It frustrates me to see the non-specific, general anger against muslims in my country, and how shrewd right-wing politicians use this for support. I hope that I won't have to show support to both sides against extremism, but I fear the worst. This situation really scares me, as it was not too long ago that one of our prominent right-wing politicians (Geert Wilders) exclaimed 'do we want more or less moroccans', followed by a chanting of 'less' by his supporters.
- vixen99 12y ago
  Perhaps this is the reason and I can't understand what the problem is myself. http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/01/what-if-these-lone-wolves-werent-moderate-muslims/ http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/01/what-if-these-lone-wolves-w...

baby 12y ago

I believe these are papers you can print to show irl. There are meetings everywhere in France right now and people are displaying those printed papers. on Facebook everybody is changing their profile picture to this image.

alexhughes 12y ago

Is the "je suis charliec a virus planted by Isis? Where did it originate?

lotsofmangos 12y ago

محمد السباحة

alexhughes 12y ago

Is the " je suis charlie " pdf an Isis hack?

simbilou 12y ago
Of course not. What makes you think it is?
- Jayd2014 12y ago
  Not sure I understand your question. PS: What does [Flagkilled] mean?, I see it at the end of my post.

alexhughes 12y ago

Is the je suis charlie pdf an isis hack? A planted virus?

alexhughes 12y ago

Is the je suis charlie pdf an isis hack? A planted virus?

Thiz 12y ago

Never a better time to bring back the guillotine.

fra 12y ago
Nope! L'amour plus fort que la haine. http://madvilletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/charlie-hebdo-cover.jpg http://madvilletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/charlie-...

fra 12y ago

There is a gathering in SF being organized on Facebook. Tonight, 7pm in front of the French consulate. https://www.facebook.com/events/1562482893969481/?pnref=story https://www.facebook.com/events/1562482893969481/?pnref=stor... #JeSuisCharlie

discardorama 12y ago

308 points in 2 hours and 121 comments... and listed at #24. Ranked below stories like: 2. 121 points, 3 hours ago , 26 comments 3. 69 points , 2 hours ago , 22 comments 5. 138 points, 4 hours ago , 33 comments 8. 80 points , 4 hours ago , 28 comments 9. 46 points , 3 hours ago , 10 comments 10. 56 points , 3 hours ago , 19 comments Looks like it's being flagged left and right. Why? What if, instead of Charlie, it was some Internet startup? Freedom of speech is important to all of us. Martin Niemoller's "First they came for the Communists...." comes to mind: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller

arcatek 12y ago
Submissions about this story have been flagkilled all day. I guess that it's to prevent abuses, but as you say, we are all affected. I think it's important to have a single main thread about this.
- InclinedPlane 12y ago
  Either some folks don't want to see "news" on HN at all or they are flagging it because they don't like the specific subject or are afraid of the conversation that will result.
boracay 12y ago
I'll upvote something that actually discusses how this effects our freedom rather than just some "let's all be upset". As far as I know western politicians have been far more effective at undermining our freedom and increasing extremism than the terrorists could ever have been on their own.
- TillE 12y ago
  The Juan Cole article is easily the best thing I've read so far, but I still don't think HN would produce any useful discussion about it. http://www.juancole.com/2015/01/sharpening-contradictions-satirists.html http://www.juancole.com/2015/01/sharpening-contradictions-sa...

meapix 12y ago

I'm a muslim and I found most of cartoons by Charlie Hebdo funny, however the cartoon about the prophet didn't upset me at all but was not funny. It did however trigger something: this is how people actually see this religion, a bomb on a prophet's head. The reality is what makes something funny or not. Should this be the end of making funny of anything or raising questions/ideas, no. However a journalist's job is not to upset people but to cross the line then come back and bring some people with him/her: convince. All my condolences to those affected by this tragedy from Ottawa, Canada.

vixen99 12y ago
It's not a journalist's job to upset people? What a strange opinion and who do you suppose should judge?
- meapix 12y ago
  it is still an opinion (you know free speech). I assume in a civilized world, when you make a statement that upset somebody, you apologize. Something like http://xkcd.com/814 http://xkcd.com/814

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

alcion0558 12y ago

!!!EXCLUSIEF religies. MOORDENAAR VAN EUROPA EN ... !!!!EXCLUSIVE RELIGIONS. KILLER OUT OF EUROPE AND ... !!!!RELIGIONS exclusive. KILLER OUT DE L'EUROPE ET ... !!!!¡¡¡¡ RELIGIONES EXCLUYENTES Y ASESINAS... FUERA DE EUROPA YA...!!!! SI NO QUEREMOS SER : EURABIA

alcion0558 12y ago

Techbrunch 12y ago

I hope they are not gonna use this as an excuse to pass new laws to increase surveillance.

mekoka 12y ago
They might. But you do know that new laws usually come with a shield and a sword. More often than none, a few more laws also means a few less liberties. That's usually how terrorism wins.

eumenides1 12y ago

I disagree with actually all the comics. I don't think anybody is "charlie" in those comics. Everyone is saying they are "charlie", but nobody is "charlie" because none of those comics are depicting the prophet mohammed as charlie clearly would have.

Jayd2014 12y ago

A Muslim here. > the moderate muslims are often rather quiet. Yes we are. But there are a few reasons for that: 1- First, Muslims can't be put in one group, there is 1.6 billion muslims worldwide with hundreds of different views and levels of tolerance. 2- Most of them don't have time or are too busy with their daily life. Think about the % of people who go vote every four years in a democracy. 30% maybe 50% at max vote, the rest can't be bothered because they are busy with their daily problems. Add to that that most Muslims live in a third world country, so they have enough problems already. 3- The first people affected by terrorism in term of body counts and extremism in general are Muslims themselves. Did you know for example that ISIS consider the previous president of egypt (Mursi) who is from the muslim brotherhood to be an infidel who need to be killed. 4- People in Muslim countries are getting numb to all this news reports because they are used to it. I remember when I was a kid watching Arab TV news showing people dying in Palestine and at one time the TV commentator laughed. She then said she was sorry and she didn't mean to laugh at what was happening. Most Arabs/Muslim who care about what's going on the Middle East have already watched too much death to react to it. 5- Some people do want to go to the street and demonstrate against this blood shed but they are not allowed by their local governments. They fear that this could turn in a revolt. Arab spring says hi. 6- There have been hundreds if not thousands of condemnation an protests by muslims all over the world but the media don't cover them much because they don't fit the narrative of evil muslims. Me as a Muslim I'm ashamed of what is happening and wish this Scumbugs are captured and put to justice. I see to much politic invested in terrorism that I know it's about power not about religion. I also do believe we muslims failed big time to adapt to the 21st century and need to wake up and get our acts together. I'm really sorry for the families of the victims and I hope they capture the scums who did this. There was an interesting discussion on reddit about this: http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/2rmmx8/eli5_if_most_muslims_disagree_with_the_actions_of/ http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/2rmmx8/el...

_almosnow 12y ago

I honestly want to know how is it allowed for someone to humiliate and make fun of something that is sacred to other people/culture. 'Free speech' I know, but when does someone's right to express themselves ends? Doesn't (or shouldn't) it has its limits? There are many other instances where you can't get away with something just because it is free speech. How come guys like Julian Assange are not protected under 'free speech'? How about people who sign NDA's? How come it would be heavily criticized (and probably illegal) for a newspaper to start running weekly cartoons where they make fun of the black population in America, depicting them with the all the token representations and slurs that are now widely accepted as 'racist'? I really want to know what's different, what's permissible, what isn't. Are there some written rules about this or is it just the result of how things are perceived by the majority of the public (i.e. what we like vs what we don't)? Disclaimer: I'm not muslim, I don't sympathise with their religion and neither I'm trying to condone what happened. I made up an example with black people because that's a very sensitive and controversial issue in the US, but the intent is not to spark controversy around racism and the likes. I'm probably going to be downvoted into oblivion but I want to know if at least I get an intelligent point of view to these issues.

schoen 12y ago
There's absolutely nothing illegal in the U.S. about insulting or disparaging black people, or members of any racial, ethnic, or religious group, including by slurs or caricatures.
- _almosnow 12y ago
  Apparently there is... [1] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_excep...
  - schoen 12y ago
    Which of those categories are you thinking of?

baby 12y ago

By the way here's a picture of the demonstration in Lyon: http://i.imgur.com/VPzOGTt.jpg http://i.imgur.com/VPzOGTt.jpg

kbarre123 12y ago

There's nothing to discuss, really. I'm not going to convince you. You're not going to convince me. Steve's not going to convince Akbar, and Akbar's not going to convince Omkar. Nobody's ever read an internet comment and thought, "Holy shit, @deeznutz420 is right. My religion IS a total crock of shit! Well I'll be..." What happened is terrible. It'll happen again, and no amount of pontificating or "nation-building" or foreign aide is going to change the fact that some people hate other people because they're different because their parents raised them to be that way. This is not a religious thing, it's a human thing. Whites in the US killed black people all the time, not too long ago mind you, simply because they were different. And they worshipped the same freaking god!

tach4n 12y ago
> "Holy shit, @deeznutz420 is right. My religion IS a total crock of shit! Actually that happens all the time - the reverse happens too of course.

osehgol 12y ago

I dont think this discussion belongs here, just read the Economist article and be done with it. It makes an excellent point for Islamist to modernize and "the others" to realize all Abrahamic religions had taboos http://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2015/01/johnson-blasphemy http://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2015/01/johnson-blas...

chasealias 12y ago

Matt Sullivan ✔ @sullduggery Follow "An assault on democracy": Thursday @guardian front page with former Le Monde editor Natalie Nougayrède #CharlieHebdo

questerzen 12y ago

Attacks in two of my home cities (Paris and Sydney) in recent weeks affecting people I am closely connected to. It is truly heartbreaking. It makes me very proud that in both cities, people refuse to accept these actions as anything but the actions of inexcusable murderers; and in both cases people have made use of the internet to share a positive message of hope and solidarity (Je Suis Charlie / IllRideWithYou). When I grew up in London during the IRA bombings, no such channel existed and the message was a very negative one issued by the government and echoed by the broadcast media. What a difference it makes that the general population now have a channel to direct the way these actions are viewed, communicated and reflected back to the perpetrators. Yes, now we ARE all Charlie.

_cipher_ 12y ago

Nice. While Philae landed in a comet after a ~10 year trip, some people still killing each other because they believe/insulted an imaginary god. sigh Don't get me wrong. Almost every big religion did the same (crusaders anyone?). But for me, this kind of behavior (regardless the religion), leads me to believe that these people are Uruk-Hai in human form. 2015 and instead of chosing to actually educate people, that sh*t keeps happenning.

chasealias 12y ago

I'd rather die on my feet, than live on my knees. As quoted in Liberation Theologies in North America and Europe‎ (1979) by Gerald H. Anderson and Thomas F. Stransky, p. 281; this is sometimes misattributed to the more modern revolutionary, Che Guevara, and to "La Pasionaria" Dolores Ibárruri, especially in Spain, where she popularized it in her famous speeches during the Spanish Civil War, to José Martí, and to Aeschylus who is credited with a similar declaration in Prometheus Bound: "For it would be better to die once and for all than to suffer pain for all one's life." The phrase "better that we should die on our feet rather than live on our knees" was spoken by François-Noël Gracchus Babeuf in his defence of the Conspiracy of Equals in April 1797. In French it read, 'Ne vaut-il pas mieux emporter la glorie de n'avoir pas survecu a la servitude?' but transliterated this bears no resemblance whatever to the quote under discussion. see: The Defense of Gracchus Babeuf Before the High Court of Vendome (1967), edited and translated by John Anthony Scott, p. 88 and p. 90, n. 12. Spanish variants: ¡Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado! I'd prefer to die standing, than to live always on my knees. As quoted in Operación Cobra : historia de una gesta romántica (1988) by Alvaro Pablo Ortiz and Oscar Lara, p. 29 Variant translations: Men of the South! It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees! With an extension, as quoted in Timeless Mexico (1944) by Hudson Strode, p. 259 I would rather die standing than live on my knees! It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees! I prefer to die standing than to live forever kneeling. Prefer death on your feet to living on your knees. La tierra es de quien la trabaja con sus manos. The land belongs to those who work it with their hands. Quoted as a slogan of the revolutionaries in Shirt-Sleeve Diplomat (1947) Vol. 5, p. 199, by Josephus Daniels, and specifically attributed to Zapata by Ángel Zúñiga in 1998, as quoted in Mexican Social Movements and the Transition to Democracy (2005), by John Stolle-McAllister Ignorance and obscurantism have never produced anything other than flocks of slaves for tyranny. Remarks in regard to Pancho Villa, as quoted in The Unknown Lore of Amexem's Indigenous People : An Aboriginal Treatise (2008) by Noble Timothy Myers-El, p. 158

rurban 12y ago

It might be an unpopular opinion, but "I am not Charlie". Even as atheist, some of those Mohammed caricatures are not funny or satire, they are simply over the line. Not just juvenile, silly or stupid. In most other countries they would be forbidden. E.g. this one from 2010, who caused the stir and death threat. http://torstenh.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/CH8.jpg http://torstenh.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/CH8.jpg France has a different liberal, explicit anti-clerical and anti-censorship tradition. The US and scandanavian countries also. But elsewhere it would be illegal. Compare them to similar Jesus caricatures, e.g. http://www.zensur-archiv.de/index.php?title=Satire http://www.zensur-archiv.de/index.php?title=Satire It's a fine line and in some cases german Titanic covers were allowed. "Ein Strafverfahren wurde von der Frankfurter Staatsanwaltschaft mit dem Verweis auf die "Satire" und deren Mittel der "Verzerrung" und Übertreibung" abgelehnt. (Sdt. 24./25.4.2010)" The legal situation in Germany and Austria: § 5 explicitly states to respect the religious beliefs of the population. In addition to the insults of religious faiths (§ 166 para. 1 of the Criminal Code). Anybody who explicitly agrees with Charlie Hebdo and posts images will probably fall under these paragraphs in those countries.

johnchristopher 12y ago
I believe the narrative behind the meme don't imply that one agrees with what Charlie Hebdo said or how it said it. I believe it's more along the lines of `you only silenced one voice, not our voices` or `I died a little too, even if I don't agree with Charlie Hebdo stances`. edit: the meme originally came from the charliehebdo website. I'd venture to guess that they mean `you didn't kill Charlie. Charlie is everyone`. edit 2: nope, I am wrong according to WP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Je_suis_Charlie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Je_suis_Charlie And that's why memes and absolutes suck.
chernevik 12y ago
Yeah, well, hate speech laws are themselves a pretty bad idea. Today it's "say nothing blasphemous about the Prophet" and then it's "say nothing blasphemous about the leading scholars". The cartoon controversy was started by Jyllands-Posten not because they wanted to offend Muslims, but because they believed that discourse about Islam and its role in society was being constrained by self-censorship and fear. Their purpose was to open that discourse by re-establishing the right of free speech. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/17/AR2006021702499.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02... The effort might have been dismissed as a juvenile stunt and an unnecessary provocation if the response had been a lot of angry criticism. The violence that has instead followed demonstrates the validity of their concern, and the necessity of their provocation.

random123456 12y ago

Throw-away account for obvious reasons: The problem with fanatics is just that: they're illogically fanatical about their beliefs. They're blindly driven by an ideology and can't be reasoned with, much less asked to sit at a table to discuss their grievances and concerns. It bears noticing that while "Charlie" spoke out for the right of freedom of expression, he did so in a culture where that was only permissible within a context that the French found suitable [0]. While crazy and murderous acts are impossible to excuse--and should be condemned--it's hard to understand why people are surprised when the chickens come home to roost. That's what chickens do. We are all Charlie, but apparently only if we choose to fully assimilate and not carry on with any religious or traditional customs others might find offensive. 0 - http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28106900 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28106900

fbhat 12y ago

I'm a muslim and here's my perspective on what happened in Paris. The attack on Charlie Hebdo is an absolute travesty. My heart goes out to the cartoonists, columnists, editors, policemen, and other innocent victims. Absolute freedom of speech is a human right. From Paris to Riyadh, anyone is free to draw and publish cartoons of the Prophet and any aspect of Islam that they disagree with. Not only should critical discourse be tolerated, it should be welcomed, for it leads to introspection and self-betterment. I believe that a majority of muslims living in the west would agree with me. Many might have been offended by the cartoons, but one does not choose to live in a free society if they can't handle opposing points of view. Unfortunately, this doesn't come through in the statements of muslim "representativates" on TV who are quick to condone acts of violence but seem hesitant to categorically dismiss the ideological basis for the violence (i.e. the cartoons shouldn't have been published). This is probably because their jobs depend on carefully towing a line between religious ideology and political correctness. Again, I don't think the cartoons are an issue for msot muslims in the west. I suspect the motivation behind the gruesome attacks in Paris might have been to make them a bigger issue, with the ultimate objective of sowing internal discord and recruiting more troublemakers. Perhaps the perpetrators play upon the expectation that the public discourse will inevitably drift to "why are muslims violent and dangerous and opposed to cartoons of the prophet?". Young mulsims will inevitably face this discourse in schools, in the press, on TV, and may eventually start to believe it and feel isolated. This might mold them into targets for further brainwashing and recruitment. I think that we, as a society, need to get a lot better at understanding these criminal motivations. Forcefully reacting to these acts of violence is simply not enough. If we fail to control the discourse, I'm afraid such violence is likely to continue.