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North Korea, Denying Sony Attack, Proposes Joint Investigation With U.S.

91 points by fivedogit 12y ago

lotsofmangos 12y ago
I've said this elsewhere, but if this whole thing was perpetrated by the North Korean state because of the potential offence to North Korea from showing their leader being killed, why has the scene of their leader being killed been leaked by the hackers supposedly controlled by North Korea and is now posted all over reddit?
- cordite 12y ago
  Was that scene actually leaked by them, or someone upset that their movie didn't get released?
  - joelrunyon 12y ago
    I'm sure if the latter was the case, the whole movie would have been out by now...
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    Fair point. From what I have read, it was one of the attachments in the leaked email dump.
  - kristofferR 12y ago
    It was just a link in one of the thousands of emails they leaked, so I doubt it was intentionally leaked.
    - lotsofmangos 12y ago
      So the story is that a state level actor who is pissed at a company over a particular bit of video, steals a load of data and then does not check the stolen data for the video they are pissed about before publicly releasing it online themselves, while simultaneously demanding that it isn't released in any format ever? I'm not saying that this isn't what has happened, as governments are capable of wonderfully insane levels of stupidity at times, but it does seem relatively unlikely. This more looks like someone who is massively pissed with Sony, not a particular film, and is just running with the NK angle for comedy chaos-monkey reasons.
blueflow 12y ago
I have some trust issues on that topics, it wouldn't be the first time they made something up. And its just in time to distract from the CIA report.
- joelrunyon 12y ago
  It's a little sad that we're having a bigger discussion about a movie than we are about torture. Priorities eh?
  - deleted 12y ago
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  - onewaystreet 12y ago
    We've had that discussion for the last 8 years. What's more to say?
    - diyorgasms 12y ago
      Have we really been having that discussion? Maybe I just haven't been paying close enough attention, but I was unaware that we were anally raping prisoners under the pretense of "feeding" and "hydrating." In fact the media dog and pony show about the hunger strikes specifically said nasal intubation for feeding, which was presented as being unpleasant but an humane manner of keeping the prisoners alive. Couple that with the revelations that we have tortured at least one prisoner to death, and I think there is plenty of cause for the dialog about torture to continue.
- Natsu 12y ago
  I don't trust NK at all, but the whole operation doesn't seem like them, it seemed more like some trolls were operating it. I'm not sure NK even has the computer skills to pull it off, for that matter. But... ultimately that's just how I feel about it. I don't think there's been any truly conclusive evidence one way or another, just people trying to make sense of what is known.
  - 12y ago
joelrunyon 12y ago
A few questions: 1. Does NK even have the capability to pull something like this off? They seemingly fail at every other intimidation stunt they pull off & now they have a massive success out of nowhere? Hm... 2. Why would they deny it if they did it? It's very out of character for them to not pounce on the chance of something being very embarrassing to the US. 3. With all the talk of it being so complicated to pinpoint exactly where the attacks came from, what info is the US gov using to pin this on NK (besides the very easy narrative around the context of the movie). They have to have a bit more intel than they're letting on...or something is fishy here.
- joelrunyon 12y ago
  Adding to this, I really hope this isn't the digital version of WMDs-in-Iran-type-event where we make up convenient excuses to intervene in countries that are somewhat problematic.
  - hokkos 12y ago
    The USA won't intervene in a country with nuclear weapons and a few kilometers from Seoul for crime without physical damages. NK won't hacknowledge it because they want to appear as a victim in every way possible.
  - indrax 12y ago
    This isn't a good enough excuse to intervene. North Korea routinely provides much better reasons to intervene.
- acaloiar 12y ago
  RE (1.): To imply that North Korea does not have the capability of pulling this off is to imply that the country is bereft of single human being with access to an Internet-connected computer. With that said--whether or not they were involved is entirely up for debate.
  - joelrunyon 12y ago
    > is to imply that the country is bereft of single human being with access to an Internet-connected computer. Having access to the internet doesn't mean you can automatically hack a multi-billion dollar company.
jdawg77 12y ago
When was the last time most, if not all, of the community here hung out with a guy or gal from the Foreign Service? Or better yet a member of the State Department of the USA? Or the equivalent in their home country; that's just as well, given that the people I've met all over the world who work in their country's foreign service department are generally good people. If you haven't seen, "A Beautiful Mind," it's a great film and the math literally helps explain why North Korea, despite evidence, might be a, "Sock puppet," used by...well, let's see. What country is having a really, really crappy time with economic sanctions right now? Maybe, just maybe, a bit of experience at interacting with the folks who (gasp) make these kinds of decisions would make the whole situation easier to explain. Or if most of us simply revisit kindergarten in the US, eg, the game of, "Tag." Remember how to claim a cookie that you're not supposed to eat? Touch it. "If I touch it, I own it," because nobody wants to eat the cookie you touched after you liked your finger, right? So, Russia perhaps, "Licks their finger," tunnels through, and then when we discover the breach, "Look, it's the North Koreans!" If not them, I'd say Luxembourg is behind it all. We know most American companies that have operations overseas use them to launder (I mean, mitigate) tax burdens in Europe, right?
- jdawg77 12y ago
  -3, impressed. Okay, I met the former ambassador to Sri Lanka and had tea with snacks when we hung out. Present was a Vice President of the country I lived in - great guy. I can't confirm nor deny, because I don't know, the exact status and titles of the various members of the legislature I met while overseas because, frankly, it wasn't my intent to keep a log then post it publicly. To whit, I've also been listed as a reference for a prosecutor who became a judge in California. However, none of this should be needed to, "Trot out," in a response about foreign politics, which I have ample experience in personally through multiple visits to many countries. Thanks, though, for deflating my karma count - I need to remember, I'm sharing here because it's fun, not because I'm winning a game. ;)
exabrial 12y ago
I think there are more important things to worry about...
UhUhUhUh 12y ago
This whole deal really looks like a chess move (and a pretty good one too) more than a pissed-off reaction. This feels Russian to me.
splike 12y ago
I find this whole thing really weird, and I suspect sites like reddit are being manipulated by someone. Lets the timeline right 1. North Korea makes its disapproval of The Interview public and complains to the UN in the summer of this year 2. Sony is hacked and passwords are leaked. The passwords are the focus of the story 3. A couple of days go by, no mention of North Korea or The Interview 3.5 I've gotta be missing something here 4. Theaters (not Sony directly) decide the pull The Interview because of threats from NK 5. FBI blames NK for sony hack 6. Obama gets involved (?????) The sequence of events just makes no sense. Then there are sites like reddit that are completely consumed by the story. The number of posts about it is insane, and there is little skepticism about the bizarre sequence of events or the blaming of NK.
- spacefight 12y ago
  Of course sites like reddit are being manipulated. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jul/14/gchq-tools-manipulate-online-information-leak http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jul/14/gchq-tools-ma...
- whiterabbit 12y ago
  3.5 The Senate Intelligence Committee releases the CIA torture report.
  - deleted 12y ago
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- connie_lingus 12y ago
  --> 3.5 Sony executives are so scared about the information contained in the stolen documents that they pull out the lobbying canons and demand the government/fbi/obama create a smoke-screen FAST and focus public opinion on a different shiny object for awhile...thus The Interview nonsense.
- Bahamut 12y ago
deleted 12y ago
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blazespin 12y ago
The Russians or NK could have secretly hired Chinese hackers to make it look like NK. Now they can embarrass the U.S. for jumping the gun like they did in Iraq and weapons of mass destruction (assuming the connection can not be proved).
hooo 12y ago
If NK did hack them, a joint investigation would be great as they'd learn what techniques the US used to identify NK.
krick 12y ago
Literally every day now I run across something mentioning "Sony hack", but haven't understood yet why it's so significant topic. It seems to gather way more attention than I imagine something like this should. Every now and then somebody gets "hacked", sometimes it's somebody pretty big, it's not that uncommon that some really important data gets leaked, but it never goes further than mentioning it on HN or something, no jokes about it on 9gag, no North Koreas joining investigation. What's the matter? Maybe it's because I missed original news. Can somebody provide link or explanation why the heck it's so important that even completely non-technical people buzz about it all the time?
- falcolas 12y ago
  In my opinion, it's mostly about the scope of the hack, and the studio's reaction. The amount of data compromised is unparalleled in any other previously reported hack, and the response by Sony (canceling the distribution of a movie) is also unprecedented.
- blazespin 12y ago
  Because free speech is a constitutional right now being impugned by a bunch of hackers or a tiny country. The U.S. looks completely powerless in the face of it.
  - eli 12y ago
    The free speech angle always seemed like a stretch. Isn't Sony free to release or not release movies as they see fit?
    - walshemj 12y ago
      And Hollywood could have pulled the prediction of Casablanca to avoid upsetting Germany and the pro Nazi german americans - and there was serious pressure put on Hollywood to do this.
      - nerfhammer 12y ago
robertszkutak 12y ago
"While some computer experts still express doubts whether the North was actually behind the attack, American officials said it was similar to what was believed to be a North Korean cyberattack last year on South Korean banks and broadcasters. One key similarity was the fact that the hackers erased data from the computers, something many cyberthieves do not do." I won't pretend to be an expert on information security but surely this isn't anywhere close to being unique enough to point blame at North Korea?
- eli 12y ago
  My understanding is that the code for the module that securely deletes files is unusual and nearly identical. But I share some of your skepticism.
Mobiu5 12y ago
Am I mistaken, or did the "hacker group" only mention The Interview AFTER the media proposed the connection? It seems like whoever hacked sony (edit: or somebody else!) just took advantage of an opportunity to cause some chaos. And the whole "FBI confirms NK" thing seems shady. None of this quite adds up.
cyorir 12y ago
Would North Korea even have an interest in attacking a company like Sony Pictures in this way? Normally, when a nation-state goes for a cyber attack, they go after useful targets. For example, they go after a government to get an upper hand in negotiations, or maybe they go after industry or academia, to secure knowledge about some helpful technology. Sony pictures would not be a canonical target for a nation-state, because they really don't have much to offer a state like North Korea (it's not like this attack will help the struggling North Korea film industry). In contrast, there would be more for North Korea to lose if the US retaliates. I can't quite understand the allegation that NK is behind this because I don't see a motive.
- Mobiu5 12y ago
  I don't think NK did it, but a nation-state, just like any other entity driven by self-interest, would go after ANYTHING they felt would give them an advantage. Including actions they can use to sway public opinion in their favor (or against the favor of their enemies) or garner sympathy for themselves.
- a3n 12y ago
  I don't know or suspect whether NK did it or not. But from what I've read about NK, it's risky to use logic to second guess their motives. If NK was a human, I'd say they're batshit nuts. Clinically speaking.
  - crdoconnor 12y ago
    A lot of the crazy stories about North Korea are made up.
    - a3n 12y ago
      No doubt. And some of the stories are probably true.
- brown9-2 12y ago
  Is it too hard to imagine that a member of the Kim court could have purchased or ordered the services of hackers to curry favor with the leadership? You might be looking for rationality and logic in the actions of a cult of personality. This is after all a country that in the past has kidnapped Japanese citizens for purposes including producing movies for the NK film industry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Japanese_citizens http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Japa... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Sang-ok http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Sang-ok
joesmo 12y ago
I can't wait to see this movie now, not because I think it'll be great but just because of the controversy surrounding it. Especially if Sony doesn't officially release it, I find it extremely ironic that so called hackers are the ones threatening Sony (which is a dubious claim at best) and hackers will likely be the ones to get it "released," considering Sony's lackluster (at best) security.
- ponyous 12y ago
  That's the bigger plan. Illuminati, they want us to see the movie. </sarcasm>
  - crdoconnor 12y ago
    More like Sony is trying to make the best of a bad situation by generating some free hype for a (probably shitty) movie.
fivedogit 12y ago
OP here. This thing is confusing the hell out of me. I go back and forth on a daily basis as to whether I think it was the NKoreans or not. One major factor in my head that I haven't heard stated elsewhere is this: If the government says today "It was North Korea" and tomorrow a hacker group says "Lulz! It was us. Gotcha!", that makes the FBI/CIA/NSA look really, really bad. Bad enough that it would outweigh any benefits to blaming the NKors. Why would the feds go out on a limb like that if they weren't absolutely sure?
- crdoconnor 12y ago
  >Why would the feds go out on a limb like that if they weren't absolutely sure? Because the military is likely angling for extra funding for its 'cyberwar' divisions and they would like for that pesky torture stuff to be yesterday's news.
  - fivedogit 12y ago
    Well sure, but my point is that being publicly wrong about the hack being NKor's work would outweigh everything, including changing the subject re: torture. Maybe I'm wrong about that, though.
    - click170 12y ago
      I think I disagree with you here. I can easily see the American government blaming NK because that would (and has) generate media attention and push the torture report out of the spotlight. That torture report is one of the best gifts they could have given the terrorists. They now have undeniable proof that America tortured people. Even if we put that aside, torturing people is what America prosecuted other war criminals for, and here they are flaunting their own rules. Consequently, they've lost all credibility and moral high ground. I think being wrong about blaming NK is much easier to brush off than being caught red handed violating the ethics that your own country established just decades prior. Think about it, if they're wrong about NK, everyone who suspected that is just going to go "I knew it." and everyone else will wonder how they could have blamed NK without being certain. Repercussions? None. Benefits? The People have forgotten about that whole torture thing. Win Win for the WhiteHouse.
ohsnap 12y ago
Anyone else frustrated that you can't have a conversation about this without the vast majority of threads taking on a conspiratorial tone? I suppose it's human nature for something with such power players as Sony/FBI/NK to seek out hidden motives and what not - but the comment quality really drops off.
- deleted 12y ago
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- nerfhammer 12y ago
  Yes. At least it doesn't seem to mostly be the same regular posters you recognize elsewhere. I've started to think of conspiracy theorizing as some kind of base human instinct
maxharris 12y ago
Nothing that North Korea says should be treated as though it were legitimate. This is a country that keeps something on the order of a quarter of a million people in actual concentration camps, and tens of millions more utterly brainwashed and in unspeakable poverty. This is now, today, in 2014. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2565240/Voices-damned-These-horrifying-stories-concentration-camp-victims-reveal-chilling-clarity-week-North-Korea-likened-Nazi-Germany.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2565240/Voices-damne... http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/02/north-koreas-horrors-as-shown-by-one-defectors-drawings/283899/ http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/02/nor... http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/02/19/eight-sketches-of-life-inside-north-koreas-prison-camps-that-will-haunt-you/ http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/02/19/eight-sketches-of...
- crdoconnor 12y ago
  It's also a country that when it scores one over on the US, never shuts up about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pueblo_%28AGER-2%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pueblo_%28AGER-2%29 They really have zero reason to deny culpability if they actually did do it.
totony 12y ago
Too much NK bashing. Just because a state is recluse and has barely any relation with other states doesn't mean we can just speculate and blame them for everything without real proof.
sopooneo 12y ago
If it really was North Korea, why would they deny it? Doesn't an act of retaliation require the perpetrator to take credit in order for it to have any benefit to them? Or could it be that North Korea is publicly denying it with the understanding that everyone really knows it's them?
- ncallaway 12y ago
  It wouldn't be entirely outside of North Korea's MO to deny the attack even if they launched it. For example, after (very probably) being the actor behind the sinking of the Cheonan they aggressively denied being involved.
  - sopooneo 12y ago
    But taking on the role of arm-chair rogue nation, why? I can image three reasons. First as I mentioned above, you might make official denials with the understanding that everyone assumes you did it anyway. Second, there might be internal infighting between the people who did it and the people who issued the denial. Or third, you might do it with the plan to take credit, then get cold feet afterwards when you realize how much heat it's bringing down, and then deny. Or is there any other hypothetical rational for such acts that I am missing?
    - ncallaway 12y ago
      Another rationale is that you want the attack to happen, but you don't want negative repercussions for being the actor that caused it. This is essentially the first scenario you present. The Cheonan incident followed a very similar path. S Korea and the United States identified N Korea as the actor. N Korea denied the involvement and offered to work with the nations to lead an open investigation into the incident. N Korea's official denial was enough cover for China and Russia to disagree that N Korea was involved in the incident. The ultimate UN statement on the attack was a condemnation of the attack, but no official party was declared responsible. This gives N Korea the benefit of terrorizing the S Korean navy, while avoiding a direct military or economic response. It's a game of brinksmanship where they want to push their actions as far as possible to convince the world that their threats are serious, while still minimizing the negative repercussions that often follow from such actions.
crdoconnor 12y ago
Reasons for pretending that North Korea did it rather than a disgruntled ex-employee: Sony executives: * Sony gets tons of free publicity for its new movie. * It diverts attention away from those emails that were starting to make certain Sony execs look really bad. * They don't look quite so hopeless and incompetent if they're getting hacked by a nation state. FBI/CIA/NSA/DOD: * It's something that can be used to deflect heavy criticism of their all-pervasive surveillance. * It's something they can use to wangle more money - to face the exciting new "cyberwar" threat. Reasons for North Korea denying involvement if they actually did it: ...
- ddod 12y ago
  There's also the added bonus of timing, as the torture report seemed to only be gaining steam up until this. Also, the concept of "cyber-terrorism" being a thing seemed kind of ubiquitous to me, but from what I've been hearing, it really wasn't on the minds of the populous until the 24 hour news networks started drumming it up in relation to the Sony hack.
  - mpyne 12y ago
    > There's also the added bonus of timing, as the torture report seemed to only be gaining steam up until this. I doubt it was that, if only because North Korea has been complaining about this movie since long before the CIA torture report was released (so it's not like "The Interview" just popped up into the media after that). Moreover the report itself is more a catalyst for discussing something everyone knows about than an announcement of something novel. The world has known the U.S. was torturing people during Bush for more than a decade by now. That's the whole reason terms like "waterboarding" are in our lexicon. Likewise Obama publicly eliminated the use of torture on his second full day in office, after running on a public campaign of banning torture during his Presidential run. Choosing to exchange a report that is only a 'source of heat and light' for a serious cyberhacking incident that demonstrates the weakness of U.S. options vs. North Korea isn't really an upside for the U.S. government as far as I can tell. Extortion and blackmail from state actors is precisely the thing the U.S. government is supposed to protect U.S. persons and corporations from, so a U.S. admission that North Korea has managed to "reach out and touch Sony Pictures" is bad news for the U.S. government, not good news.
saranagati 12y ago
im really not one for conspiracy theories but this one just seems so obvious. * sony gets hacked. * a few news articles about it. * cia torture facilities get leaked and admitted. * news coverage all over about it. * US federal government does something its never done before and calls out a specific nation state as the attacker for the sony breach. * news coverage of sony skyrockets and cia stuff disappears from media. * us government goes on to say that they need to increase their "cyber defense" by having more control over the internet to protect individuals and companies from other nation states. edit: oh also wasnt it just earlier this week that there was an article on hn about sock puppets?
dschiptsov 12y ago
Oh, come on. There is a simple theory that "all oversimplified/naive theories are wrong" (this is, by the way, a consequence of "all mental theories are wrong, but some of them are useful). The theory that North Korea was upset about a crappy movie and hacked Sony is such a naive nonsense, it cannot be considered seriously. In is HN, after all.) Less naive could an idea that some guys hacked Sony (for money, what else?) and used this as a "cover story". How does this happen? By a chance, like most events in Universe. The hack itself, probably, was due to neglected security, like WEP hot-spots, unpatched Windows crap, everyone has Administrator privileges, updates disabled - everyone knows how it is. And in order to "save the face" everyone jumped on that naive story - it is highly sophisticated hack by foreign intelligence, not an "admin" (or "fuck") password on some hotspot or Windows domain. It was a media division, btw, not a "techie" department. I am exaggerating a bit about passwords, but the idea, I hope, is clear.
- csandreasen 12y ago
  > The theory that North Korea was upset about a crappy movie and hacked Sony is such a naive nonsense, it cannot be considered seriously. I'd be inclined to agree with you if the North Korean government didn't officially condemn the film last June and threaten retaliation if it was released. http://time.com/2921071/kim-jong-un-seth-rogen-the-interview-james-franco/ http://time.com/2921071/kim-jong-un-seth-rogen-the-interview...
  - dschiptsov 12y ago
    This is, most probably, correlation, not causation.)
    - csandreasen 12y ago
      I think it's interesting that Sony is hacked several months after North Korea makes threatening remarks about a specific movie, the hackers make specific threats about the release of the same movie, and the FBI states that their forensic investigation turned up malware with code identical to malware previously attributed to North Korean hacking and using the same C2 servers and proxies, but the tech community won't even entertain the possibility that it might be North Korea behind the attack.
nkoren 12y ago
Translation: "We have no idea how this attack was perpetrated, but would sure like to find out." (Nudge nudge, wink wink, you know what I mean, know what I mean?)
frevd 12y ago
An indirect proof of who hacked Sony is easy: depending on whether the 'Hackers' publish the movie or not (given they got access to it and given Sony does not publish it as they say) will show who's behind it.
deleted 12y ago
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thatusertwo 12y ago
Does it really matter who did this? The future of the internet is changed as a result of this event, thats the true meat of this situation.

91 points by fivedogit 12y ago

I've said this elsewhere, but if this whole thing was perpetrated by the North Korean state because of the potential offence to North Korea from showing their leader being killed, why has the scene of their leader being killed been leaked by the hackers supposedly controlled by North Korea and is now posted all over reddit?

cordite 12y ago
Was that scene actually leaked by them, or someone upset that their movie didn't get released?
- joelrunyon 12y ago
  I'm sure if the latter was the case, the whole movie would have been out by now...
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  Fair point. From what I have read, it was one of the attachments in the leaked email dump.
- kristofferR 12y ago
  It was just a link in one of the thousands of emails they leaked, so I doubt it was intentionally leaked.
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    So the story is that a state level actor who is pissed at a company over a particular bit of video, steals a load of data and then does not check the stolen data for the video they are pissed about before publicly releasing it online themselves, while simultaneously demanding that it isn't released in any format ever? I'm not saying that this isn't what has happened, as governments are capable of wonderfully insane levels of stupidity at times, but it does seem relatively unlikely. This more looks like someone who is massively pissed with Sony, not a particular film, and is just running with the NK angle for comedy chaos-monkey reasons.

blueflow 12y ago

I have some trust issues on that topics, it wouldn't be the first time they made something up. And its just in time to distract from the CIA report.

joelrunyon 12y ago
It's a little sad that we're having a bigger discussion about a movie than we are about torture. Priorities eh?
- deleted 12y ago
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- onewaystreet 12y ago
  We've had that discussion for the last 8 years. What's more to say?
  - diyorgasms 12y ago
    Have we really been having that discussion? Maybe I just haven't been paying close enough attention, but I was unaware that we were anally raping prisoners under the pretense of "feeding" and "hydrating." In fact the media dog and pony show about the hunger strikes specifically said nasal intubation for feeding, which was presented as being unpleasant but an humane manner of keeping the prisoners alive. Couple that with the revelations that we have tortured at least one prisoner to death, and I think there is plenty of cause for the dialog about torture to continue.
Natsu 12y ago
I don't trust NK at all, but the whole operation doesn't seem like them, it seemed more like some trolls were operating it. I'm not sure NK even has the computer skills to pull it off, for that matter. But... ultimately that's just how I feel about it. I don't think there's been any truly conclusive evidence one way or another, just people trying to make sense of what is known.
- 12y ago

joelrunyon 12y ago

A few questions: 1. Does NK even have the capability to pull something like this off? They seemingly fail at every other intimidation stunt they pull off & now they have a massive success out of nowhere? Hm... 2. Why would they deny it if they did it? It's very out of character for them to not pounce on the chance of something being very embarrassing to the US. 3. With all the talk of it being so complicated to pinpoint exactly where the attacks came from, what info is the US gov using to pin this on NK (besides the very easy narrative around the context of the movie). They have to have a bit more intel than they're letting on...or something is fishy here.

joelrunyon 12y ago
Adding to this, I really hope this isn't the digital version of WMDs-in-Iran-type-event where we make up convenient excuses to intervene in countries that are somewhat problematic.
- hokkos 12y ago
  The USA won't intervene in a country with nuclear weapons and a few kilometers from Seoul for crime without physical damages. NK won't hacknowledge it because they want to appear as a victim in every way possible.
- indrax 12y ago
  This isn't a good enough excuse to intervene. North Korea routinely provides much better reasons to intervene.
acaloiar 12y ago
RE (1.): To imply that North Korea does not have the capability of pulling this off is to imply that the country is bereft of single human being with access to an Internet-connected computer. With that said--whether or not they were involved is entirely up for debate.
- joelrunyon 12y ago
  > is to imply that the country is bereft of single human being with access to an Internet-connected computer. Having access to the internet doesn't mean you can automatically hack a multi-billion dollar company.

jdawg77 12y ago

When was the last time most, if not all, of the community here hung out with a guy or gal from the Foreign Service? Or better yet a member of the State Department of the USA? Or the equivalent in their home country; that's just as well, given that the people I've met all over the world who work in their country's foreign service department are generally good people. If you haven't seen, "A Beautiful Mind," it's a great film and the math literally helps explain why North Korea, despite evidence, might be a, "Sock puppet," used by...well, let's see. What country is having a really, really crappy time with economic sanctions right now? Maybe, just maybe, a bit of experience at interacting with the folks who (gasp) make these kinds of decisions would make the whole situation easier to explain. Or if most of us simply revisit kindergarten in the US, eg, the game of, "Tag." Remember how to claim a cookie that you're not supposed to eat? Touch it. "If I touch it, I own it," because nobody wants to eat the cookie you touched after you liked your finger, right? So, Russia perhaps, "Licks their finger," tunnels through, and then when we discover the breach, "Look, it's the North Koreans!" If not them, I'd say Luxembourg is behind it all. We know most American companies that have operations overseas use them to launder (I mean, mitigate) tax burdens in Europe, right?

jdawg77 12y ago
-3, impressed. Okay, I met the former ambassador to Sri Lanka and had tea with snacks when we hung out. Present was a Vice President of the country I lived in - great guy. I can't confirm nor deny, because I don't know, the exact status and titles of the various members of the legislature I met while overseas because, frankly, it wasn't my intent to keep a log then post it publicly. To whit, I've also been listed as a reference for a prosecutor who became a judge in California. However, none of this should be needed to, "Trot out," in a response about foreign politics, which I have ample experience in personally through multiple visits to many countries. Thanks, though, for deflating my karma count - I need to remember, I'm sharing here because it's fun, not because I'm winning a game. ;)

exabrial 12y ago

I think there are more important things to worry about...

UhUhUhUh 12y ago

This whole deal really looks like a chess move (and a pretty good one too) more than a pissed-off reaction. This feels Russian to me.

splike 12y ago

I find this whole thing really weird, and I suspect sites like reddit are being manipulated by someone. Lets the timeline right 1. North Korea makes its disapproval of The Interview public and complains to the UN in the summer of this year 2. Sony is hacked and passwords are leaked. The passwords are the focus of the story 3. A couple of days go by, no mention of North Korea or The Interview 3.5 I've gotta be missing something here 4. Theaters (not Sony directly) decide the pull The Interview because of threats from NK 5. FBI blames NK for sony hack 6. Obama gets involved (?????) The sequence of events just makes no sense. Then there are sites like reddit that are completely consumed by the story. The number of posts about it is insane, and there is little skepticism about the bizarre sequence of events or the blaming of NK.

spacefight 12y ago
Of course sites like reddit are being manipulated. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jul/14/gchq-tools-manipulate-online-information-leak http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jul/14/gchq-tools-ma...
whiterabbit 12y ago
3.5 The Senate Intelligence Committee releases the CIA torture report.
- deleted 12y ago
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connie_lingus 12y ago
--> 3.5 Sony executives are so scared about the information contained in the stolen documents that they pull out the lobbying canons and demand the government/fbi/obama create a smoke-screen FAST and focus public opinion on a different shiny object for awhile...thus The Interview nonsense.
Bahamut 12y ago

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blazespin 12y ago

The Russians or NK could have secretly hired Chinese hackers to make it look like NK. Now they can embarrass the U.S. for jumping the gun like they did in Iraq and weapons of mass destruction (assuming the connection can not be proved).

hooo 12y ago

If NK did hack them, a joint investigation would be great as they'd learn what techniques the US used to identify NK.

krick 12y ago

Literally every day now I run across something mentioning "Sony hack", but haven't understood yet why it's so significant topic. It seems to gather way more attention than I imagine something like this should. Every now and then somebody gets "hacked", sometimes it's somebody pretty big, it's not that uncommon that some really important data gets leaked, but it never goes further than mentioning it on HN or something, no jokes about it on 9gag, no North Koreas joining investigation. What's the matter? Maybe it's because I missed original news. Can somebody provide link or explanation why the heck it's so important that even completely non-technical people buzz about it all the time?

falcolas 12y ago
In my opinion, it's mostly about the scope of the hack, and the studio's reaction. The amount of data compromised is unparalleled in any other previously reported hack, and the response by Sony (canceling the distribution of a movie) is also unprecedented.
blazespin 12y ago
Because free speech is a constitutional right now being impugned by a bunch of hackers or a tiny country. The U.S. looks completely powerless in the face of it.
- eli 12y ago
  The free speech angle always seemed like a stretch. Isn't Sony free to release or not release movies as they see fit?
  - walshemj 12y ago
    And Hollywood could have pulled the prediction of Casablanca to avoid upsetting Germany and the pro Nazi german americans - and there was serious pressure put on Hollywood to do this.
    - nerfhammer 12y ago

robertszkutak 12y ago

"While some computer experts still express doubts whether the North was actually behind the attack, American officials said it was similar to what was believed to be a North Korean cyberattack last year on South Korean banks and broadcasters. One key similarity was the fact that the hackers erased data from the computers, something many cyberthieves do not do." I won't pretend to be an expert on information security but surely this isn't anywhere close to being unique enough to point blame at North Korea?

eli 12y ago
My understanding is that the code for the module that securely deletes files is unusual and nearly identical. But I share some of your skepticism.

Mobiu5 12y ago

Am I mistaken, or did the "hacker group" only mention The Interview AFTER the media proposed the connection? It seems like whoever hacked sony (edit: or somebody else!) just took advantage of an opportunity to cause some chaos. And the whole "FBI confirms NK" thing seems shady. None of this quite adds up.

cyorir 12y ago

Would North Korea even have an interest in attacking a company like Sony Pictures in this way? Normally, when a nation-state goes for a cyber attack, they go after useful targets. For example, they go after a government to get an upper hand in negotiations, or maybe they go after industry or academia, to secure knowledge about some helpful technology. Sony pictures would not be a canonical target for a nation-state, because they really don't have much to offer a state like North Korea (it's not like this attack will help the struggling North Korea film industry). In contrast, there would be more for North Korea to lose if the US retaliates. I can't quite understand the allegation that NK is behind this because I don't see a motive.

Mobiu5 12y ago
I don't think NK did it, but a nation-state, just like any other entity driven by self-interest, would go after ANYTHING they felt would give them an advantage. Including actions they can use to sway public opinion in their favor (or against the favor of their enemies) or garner sympathy for themselves.
a3n 12y ago
I don't know or suspect whether NK did it or not. But from what I've read about NK, it's risky to use logic to second guess their motives. If NK was a human, I'd say they're batshit nuts. Clinically speaking.
- crdoconnor 12y ago
  A lot of the crazy stories about North Korea are made up.
  - a3n 12y ago
    No doubt. And some of the stories are probably true.
brown9-2 12y ago
Is it too hard to imagine that a member of the Kim court could have purchased or ordered the services of hackers to curry favor with the leadership? You might be looking for rationality and logic in the actions of a cult of personality. This is after all a country that in the past has kidnapped Japanese citizens for purposes including producing movies for the NK film industry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Japanese_citizens http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Japa... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Sang-ok http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Sang-ok

joesmo 12y ago

I can't wait to see this movie now, not because I think it'll be great but just because of the controversy surrounding it. Especially if Sony doesn't officially release it, I find it extremely ironic that so called hackers are the ones threatening Sony (which is a dubious claim at best) and hackers will likely be the ones to get it "released," considering Sony's lackluster (at best) security.

ponyous 12y ago
That's the bigger plan. Illuminati, they want us to see the movie. </sarcasm>
- crdoconnor 12y ago
  More like Sony is trying to make the best of a bad situation by generating some free hype for a (probably shitty) movie.

fivedogit 12y ago

OP here. This thing is confusing the hell out of me. I go back and forth on a daily basis as to whether I think it was the NKoreans or not. One major factor in my head that I haven't heard stated elsewhere is this: If the government says today "It was North Korea" and tomorrow a hacker group says "Lulz! It was us. Gotcha!", that makes the FBI/CIA/NSA look really, really bad. Bad enough that it would outweigh any benefits to blaming the NKors. Why would the feds go out on a limb like that if they weren't absolutely sure?

crdoconnor 12y ago
>Why would the feds go out on a limb like that if they weren't absolutely sure? Because the military is likely angling for extra funding for its 'cyberwar' divisions and they would like for that pesky torture stuff to be yesterday's news.
- fivedogit 12y ago
  Well sure, but my point is that being publicly wrong about the hack being NKor's work would outweigh everything, including changing the subject re: torture. Maybe I'm wrong about that, though.
  - click170 12y ago
    I think I disagree with you here. I can easily see the American government blaming NK because that would (and has) generate media attention and push the torture report out of the spotlight. That torture report is one of the best gifts they could have given the terrorists. They now have undeniable proof that America tortured people. Even if we put that aside, torturing people is what America prosecuted other war criminals for, and here they are flaunting their own rules. Consequently, they've lost all credibility and moral high ground. I think being wrong about blaming NK is much easier to brush off than being caught red handed violating the ethics that your own country established just decades prior. Think about it, if they're wrong about NK, everyone who suspected that is just going to go "I knew it." and everyone else will wonder how they could have blamed NK without being certain. Repercussions? None. Benefits? The People have forgotten about that whole torture thing. Win Win for the WhiteHouse.

ohsnap 12y ago

Anyone else frustrated that you can't have a conversation about this without the vast majority of threads taking on a conspiratorial tone? I suppose it's human nature for something with such power players as Sony/FBI/NK to seek out hidden motives and what not - but the comment quality really drops off.

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nerfhammer 12y ago
Yes. At least it doesn't seem to mostly be the same regular posters you recognize elsewhere. I've started to think of conspiracy theorizing as some kind of base human instinct

maxharris 12y ago

Nothing that North Korea says should be treated as though it were legitimate. This is a country that keeps something on the order of a quarter of a million people in actual concentration camps, and tens of millions more utterly brainwashed and in unspeakable poverty. This is now, today, in 2014. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2565240/Voices-damned-These-horrifying-stories-concentration-camp-victims-reveal-chilling-clarity-week-North-Korea-likened-Nazi-Germany.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2565240/Voices-damne... http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/02/north-koreas-horrors-as-shown-by-one-defectors-drawings/283899/ http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/02/nor... http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/02/19/eight-sketches-of-life-inside-north-koreas-prison-camps-that-will-haunt-you/ http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/02/19/eight-sketches-of...

crdoconnor 12y ago
It's also a country that when it scores one over on the US, never shuts up about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pueblo_%28AGER-2%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pueblo_%28AGER-2%29 They really have zero reason to deny culpability if they actually did do it.

totony 12y ago

Too much NK bashing. Just because a state is recluse and has barely any relation with other states doesn't mean we can just speculate and blame them for everything without real proof.

sopooneo 12y ago

If it really was North Korea, why would they deny it? Doesn't an act of retaliation require the perpetrator to take credit in order for it to have any benefit to them? Or could it be that North Korea is publicly denying it with the understanding that everyone really knows it's them?

ncallaway 12y ago
It wouldn't be entirely outside of North Korea's MO to deny the attack even if they launched it. For example, after (very probably) being the actor behind the sinking of the Cheonan they aggressively denied being involved.
- sopooneo 12y ago
  But taking on the role of arm-chair rogue nation, why? I can image three reasons. First as I mentioned above, you might make official denials with the understanding that everyone assumes you did it anyway. Second, there might be internal infighting between the people who did it and the people who issued the denial. Or third, you might do it with the plan to take credit, then get cold feet afterwards when you realize how much heat it's bringing down, and then deny. Or is there any other hypothetical rational for such acts that I am missing?
  - ncallaway 12y ago
    Another rationale is that you want the attack to happen, but you don't want negative repercussions for being the actor that caused it. This is essentially the first scenario you present. The Cheonan incident followed a very similar path. S Korea and the United States identified N Korea as the actor. N Korea denied the involvement and offered to work with the nations to lead an open investigation into the incident. N Korea's official denial was enough cover for China and Russia to disagree that N Korea was involved in the incident. The ultimate UN statement on the attack was a condemnation of the attack, but no official party was declared responsible. This gives N Korea the benefit of terrorizing the S Korean navy, while avoiding a direct military or economic response. It's a game of brinksmanship where they want to push their actions as far as possible to convince the world that their threats are serious, while still minimizing the negative repercussions that often follow from such actions.

crdoconnor 12y ago

Reasons for pretending that North Korea did it rather than a disgruntled ex-employee: Sony executives: * Sony gets tons of free publicity for its new movie. * It diverts attention away from those emails that were starting to make certain Sony execs look really bad. * They don't look quite so hopeless and incompetent if they're getting hacked by a nation state. FBI/CIA/NSA/DOD: * It's something that can be used to deflect heavy criticism of their all-pervasive surveillance. * It's something they can use to wangle more money - to face the exciting new "cyberwar" threat. Reasons for North Korea denying involvement if they actually did it: ...

ddod 12y ago
There's also the added bonus of timing, as the torture report seemed to only be gaining steam up until this. Also, the concept of "cyber-terrorism" being a thing seemed kind of ubiquitous to me, but from what I've been hearing, it really wasn't on the minds of the populous until the 24 hour news networks started drumming it up in relation to the Sony hack.
- mpyne 12y ago
  > There's also the added bonus of timing, as the torture report seemed to only be gaining steam up until this. I doubt it was that, if only because North Korea has been complaining about this movie since long before the CIA torture report was released (so it's not like "The Interview" just popped up into the media after that). Moreover the report itself is more a catalyst for discussing something everyone knows about than an announcement of something novel. The world has known the U.S. was torturing people during Bush for more than a decade by now. That's the whole reason terms like "waterboarding" are in our lexicon. Likewise Obama publicly eliminated the use of torture on his second full day in office, after running on a public campaign of banning torture during his Presidential run. Choosing to exchange a report that is only a 'source of heat and light' for a serious cyberhacking incident that demonstrates the weakness of U.S. options vs. North Korea isn't really an upside for the U.S. government as far as I can tell. Extortion and blackmail from state actors is precisely the thing the U.S. government is supposed to protect U.S. persons and corporations from, so a U.S. admission that North Korea has managed to "reach out and touch Sony Pictures" is bad news for the U.S. government, not good news.

saranagati 12y ago

im really not one for conspiracy theories but this one just seems so obvious. * sony gets hacked. * a few news articles about it. * cia torture facilities get leaked and admitted. * news coverage all over about it. * US federal government does something its never done before and calls out a specific nation state as the attacker for the sony breach. * news coverage of sony skyrockets and cia stuff disappears from media. * us government goes on to say that they need to increase their "cyber defense" by having more control over the internet to protect individuals and companies from other nation states. edit: oh also wasnt it just earlier this week that there was an article on hn about sock puppets?

dschiptsov 12y ago

Oh, come on. There is a simple theory that "all oversimplified/naive theories are wrong" (this is, by the way, a consequence of "all mental theories are wrong, but some of them are useful). The theory that North Korea was upset about a crappy movie and hacked Sony is such a naive nonsense, it cannot be considered seriously. In is HN, after all.) Less naive could an idea that some guys hacked Sony (for money, what else?) and used this as a "cover story". How does this happen? By a chance, like most events in Universe. The hack itself, probably, was due to neglected security, like WEP hot-spots, unpatched Windows crap, everyone has Administrator privileges, updates disabled - everyone knows how it is. And in order to "save the face" everyone jumped on that naive story - it is highly sophisticated hack by foreign intelligence, not an "admin" (or "fuck") password on some hotspot or Windows domain. It was a media division, btw, not a "techie" department. I am exaggerating a bit about passwords, but the idea, I hope, is clear.

csandreasen 12y ago
> The theory that North Korea was upset about a crappy movie and hacked Sony is such a naive nonsense, it cannot be considered seriously. I'd be inclined to agree with you if the North Korean government didn't officially condemn the film last June and threaten retaliation if it was released. http://time.com/2921071/kim-jong-un-seth-rogen-the-interview-james-franco/ http://time.com/2921071/kim-jong-un-seth-rogen-the-interview...
- dschiptsov 12y ago
  This is, most probably, correlation, not causation.)
  - csandreasen 12y ago
    I think it's interesting that Sony is hacked several months after North Korea makes threatening remarks about a specific movie, the hackers make specific threats about the release of the same movie, and the FBI states that their forensic investigation turned up malware with code identical to malware previously attributed to North Korean hacking and using the same C2 servers and proxies, but the tech community won't even entertain the possibility that it might be North Korea behind the attack.

nkoren 12y ago

Translation: "We have no idea how this attack was perpetrated, but would sure like to find out." (Nudge nudge, wink wink, you know what I mean, know what I mean?)

frevd 12y ago

An indirect proof of who hacked Sony is easy: depending on whether the 'Hackers' publish the movie or not (given they got access to it and given Sony does not publish it as they say) will show who's behind it.

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thatusertwo 12y ago

Does it really matter who did this? The future of the internet is changed as a result of this event, thats the true meat of this situation.