9 ms·

Secret surveillance detected in Oslo

305 points by draugadrotten 12y ago

andersthue 12y ago
tl;dr translation, multiple IMSI catchere in Oslo, Norway near goverment buildings, lots of suspecious data traffic from phone, all of unknown origin.
- psykovsky 12y ago
  TL;DR Cryptophone infomercial
  - e12e 12y ago
    I don't know who downmodded you -- at least half of the coverage (in Norwegian) reads like a planted story. That doesn't mean the story doesn't have merit, though. There's an additional nice quote: "Måten dette overvåkingsutstyret opererer på, tyder på at det er svært avanserte systemer med en prislapp på mellom 500.000 kroner og to millioner kroner. Dette er utstyr som ikke er tillatt solgt til privatpersoner i NATO-land." "The way in which this monitoring equipment [the IMSI-catchers] operate, indicate that it is highly sophisticated, with a price tag from 500K NOK to 2M NOK [67K USD - 272K USD]. This is equipment that is illegal to sell to private citizens in NATO countries." (my translation, emphasis). On the other hand, we have eg: http://openbts.blogspot.no/2009/04/some-comments-on-imsi-catchers.html http://openbts.blogspot.no/2009/04/some-comments-on-imsi-cat... Pertinent quote, at the end: "the most common way to build an IMSI-catcher comes directly from the R&S patent itself and is based entirely on off-the-shelf commercial equipment. Nearly any BTS or BTS simulator can be used as the basis of an IMSI-catcher.". So yeah, typical "security industry" big words. Sure this stuff is illegal (if for nothing else, for operating in a regulated radio frequency band). Sure it's pretty sophisticated. I'm sure you'd have to pay through the nose if you bought it MILSPEC and off-the-shelf. But it's not like it's a fission device. Which is what the "illegal to sell to private citizens in NATO countries" sort of underhandedly implies.
    - semi-extrinsic 12y ago
      This setup should be able to do IMSI catching (total hardware cost $750): http://hackaday.com/2014/07/05/a-gsm-base-station-with-software-defined-radio/ http://hackaday.com/2014/07/05/a-gsm-base-station-with-softw...
    - acqq 12y ago
      I can't understand that somebody can see how many "catchers" were detected there and not be surprised unless he's actually working in that "industry." The value of the article is much higher than in mentioning a security product: we see how widespread these devices are. Don't forget, almost every phone is vulnerable on that level -- the operator's actions aren't protected by the phone's main operating system.
    - higherpurpose 12y ago
      The reason we even heard about some of these IMSI-catchers, like here in Norway or in that cryptophone firewall article, which mentions they discovered multiple across US, is because the guys behind Cryptophone used their product to look for them. That's what it does, and it's probably quite unique in the industry right. And yes, they go to the press to tell them about it, and then tell them how the product works to detect them. I don't really see this as an infomercial no more than all the thousands of the initial articles on touchscreen phones talked about the iPhone in them, since the iPhone was the first real touchscreen phone, and then all the other phones had to be compared to it.
      - maxerickson 12y ago
        I don't see a whole lot of press predating this article: http://www.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424053111904194604576583112723197574?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424053111904194604576583112723197574.html http://www.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405311190419460457... ( "'Stingray' Phone Tracker Fuels Constitutional Clash" is the headline if you need to bounce it through Google) The information there came from a court case and the Stingray patent (they publish an image of one). It's useful and interesting to be able to look for them, but it seems that the US legal system also played a part in disclosing the practice of using them.
eitland 12y ago
Interesting but in Norwegian. Google translate for those who haven't picked up Norwegian yet: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmm.aftenposten.no%2Fstortinget-og-statsministeren-overvakes%2F&edit-text=&act=url https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=y&prev...
- acqq 12y ago
  The (shorter) article carefully written and edited in English is here: "Secret surveillance detected in Oslo" http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Secret-surveillance-detected-in-Oslo-7825278.html http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Secret-surveillance-... "After being alerted by Aftenposten the Norwegian National Security Authority (NSM) started their own investigation. On Friday they confirmed that they had found traces of «something». - We have found something. All the data are not ready yet, but we have also found signals from IMSI-catchers in Oslo, says Hans Christian Pretorius, department head in NSM."
  - runarb 12y ago
    "found something"? Seems a little vague to me. I hope they have a couple of hundred boots on the ground, going build to building to hunt thus devises down. I don't see why the Norwegian state should not react in the same way the Swedes dos each time they detect a foreign submarine in their fjords: to hunt for it with an overwhelming force.
    - acqq 12y ago
      There's a logic behind the vagueness, see my other comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8745217 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8745217 But I see you're from Norway, please keep us updated with the info only available in Norwegian! Thanks.
kszx 12y ago
The translated article says that the "police, Police Security Service and the National Security Agency" have the authority to use these types of devices. It seems very reasonable to me that they may do so around government areas. Did I miss something?
- joars 12y ago
  When the national secuity agency was told they started their own investigation on the following day, it may not say much but they had the opportunity to admit ownership and they didn't, which points in the directon of illegal activities.
- mewwts 12y ago
  These organizations were interviewed, and had the opportunity to remove their installations prior to the scanning. Also, according to PST, the installations they use are portable, fits in a suitcase, and such it would not make sense for them to go after the fake base stations..
- acqq 12y ago
  Note that when they talk about the "National Security Authority" (which only Google translated "agency") they actually write in the article "Nasjonal Sikkerhetsmyndighet" (NSM) which is the Norway's security authority: https://www.nsm.stat.no/ https://www.nsm.stat.no/ and not the US' NSA. So what we know is: "No Norwegian authority contacted by (the daily newspaper) Aftenposten said that this equipment belongs to them. Aftenposten has no reason to believe that the Norwegian authorities are behind the transmitters." The (shorter) article in English as written by Aftenposten: http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Secret-surveillance-detected-in-Oslo-7825278.html http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Secret-surveillance-...
roghummal 12y ago
The new acronym is {M|W}ITM. It's more inclusive. Can we get the title changed?
- woah 12y ago
  Thanks for your insightful contribution!
  - walterbell 12y ago
    What was the contribution?
    - desdiv 12y ago
      >The new acronym is {M|W}ITM. It's more inclusive. Can we get the title changed? PS: There's an option, cryptically named "showdead", in your user settings that allows you to see flagkilled comments.
      - walterbell 12y ago
        Thanks.
- dkopi 12y ago
  Mallory (malicious) and Trudy (intruder) are often used in crypto books.
spacefight 12y ago
Are there any projects or methods on how to locate fake base stations? I know that the blackphone is able to do that, but is there more on the technical side of e.g. triangulating the location and track them down?
- higherpurpose 12y ago
  I think you meant the German-made Cryptophone 500, not Blackphone. http://www.wired.com/2014/09/cryptophone-firewall-identifies-rogue-cell-towers/ http://www.wired.com/2014/09/cryptophone-firewall-identifies... I recently discovered an IMSI-catcher app on the F-droid market for Android. It's called Android IMSI-Catcher Detector and you can easily find it in the Security category if you filter by it in the app. For some reason, I can't browse for it on the site. The project is in alpha stage and seems to be this one here: https://github.com/SecUpwN/Android-IMSI-Catcher-Detector https://github.com/SecUpwN/Android-IMSI-Catcher-Detector There's also this paper on making IMSI-catcher detectors: https://www.sba-research.org/wp-content/uploads/publications/AdrianDabrowski-IMSI-Catcher-Catcher-ACSAC2014-preprint-20140820.pdf https://www.sba-research.org/wp-content/uploads/publications... I hope to see more people working on this, though. In fact, I wish Google, Apple and Microsoft would add protections against IMSI-catchers by default in their mobile operating systems. After all it's already a known privacy issue affecting millions [1], and it seems not just in US either. They can't continue to pretend it doesn't exist anymore. [1] - http://www.wired.com/2014/11/feds-motherfng-stingrays-motherfng-planes/ http://www.wired.com/2014/11/feds-motherfng-stingrays-mother...
  - e12e 12y ago
    There's another article (also in Norwegian): http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Slik-oppdaget-Aftenposten-de-falske-basestasjonene-i-Oslo--7824295.html http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Slik-oppdaget-Aftenp... They spotted the (presence of) IMSI-catchers with a GSMK Cryptophone, apparently. I actually come to HN just now, to see if their product had been shredded, I mean carefully analysed, here earlier ;-)
  - spacefight 12y ago
    Thanks for the collection of further literature. I whish the network associations weren't undermined by the big five and wouldn't weaken their encryption standards to allow this.
riffraff 12y ago
interesting bit in the translation seems to be > If these are criminals, foreign intelligence or other behind, is unknown.
- aragot 12y ago
  It's ironic that criminals and governments can't be distinguished, after all the time they've spent fighting against terrorists.
- vidarh 12y ago
  Notably they've left out "Norwegian intelligence", though I guess after the revelations in the 90's that might be included in "criminals". (They were found to have spent decades carrying out illegal partisan political surveillance)
flexie 12y ago
Makes me wonder about the future of democracy. If tiny Norway, which imposes no real threat to any other country, including it's mighty neighbor, Russia, is a target for intelligence services, then every country is a target. Norway has little strategic importance and little influence on the world economy or world peace. Sure, they have lots of oil but its undisputed Norwegian and they sell it willingly. Sure, they are NATO members and at present the NATO secretary general is Norwegian, and they do participate in NATO actions in the Middle East. But their own military is modest, barely capable of defending Norway if it came down to it. And Norway has little say over the other NATO countries. I think the NATO secretary general, Stoltenberg, said it best himself when he described the Norwegian democracy as a fax democracy where Norwegian officials sit at a fax machine waiting for the latest directive from Brussels (Norway is not an EU member but part of the European Economic Area and must adopt most EU rules in order to keep their access to the Euroean single market). Anyone thinking that Norway has any real powers or impose a threat to anyone in the next 5-10 decades is delusional. So why and to whom is it vital to spy on these fax politicians whose international influence barely exceeds that of an American senator or governor or a member of a German Landtag?
- higherpurpose 12y ago
  We need to destroy their logic about "collecting everything, because they might need it in 100 years" first. They do it because it's so cheap, because they can, and because nobody is really standing up to them. However, if we allowed the government to do anything it wants "just because it can", thousands of our current laws wouldn't exist. I don't remember if it was Clapper or Alexander but one of them basically said the whole Snowden thing will blow-over, and they won't have to change a thing. From what we've seen already that seems to be the case. The watered down USA Freedom Act was killed, and they even made their collection powers stronger with that recent Intelligence Authorization Act. Can you believe that? Not even 2 years after the worldwide Snowden scandal, and they shamelessly push for even more spying powers. These people know nothing can touch them or stop them. And that speaks volumes about the state of our current democracies, when the will of the people, who are supposed to control their governments, and are the ones paying their budgets, have no say in the government's decisions. I highly recommend everyone watch this whole video here. It's an eye opener about many things, and I think he may be right about the root cause of the problem (vote transparency in Congress, which causes politicians to be bought, intimidated, and so on for their vote, just like it would happen with normal citizens's vote if it weren't anonymous): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gEz__sMVaY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gEz__sMVaY It's from the video where I learned about this new research that basically says: > The flat line for most Americans shows that no matter how popular a law was, Congress was about equally likely to pass it. Contrast that with the line for wealthy Americans, whose opinions substantially affect how likely a bill is to pass. http://bulletin.represent.us/u-s-oligarchy-explain-research http://bulletin.represent.us/u-s-oligarchy-explain-research
papul1993 12y ago
GSM is so broken.
- maaaats 12y ago
  Did this happen because of GSM? In that case it's a bit ironic, as big parts of GSM is invented by Norway.
  - ehamberg 12y ago
    Norway invented everything from the Groupe Spécial Mobile group? Citation needed.
    - kyrre 12y ago
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torleiv_Maseng http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torleiv_Maseng
    - maaaats 12y ago
      Did I say everything? > Another SINTEF-originated project is the radio technology behind GSM (Global System for Mobile Communications). Digital GSM (or 2G), replaced the old 1G analogue networks. http://theforeigner.no/pages/news/ways-norway-changed-the-world/ http://theforeigner.no/pages/news/ways-norway-changed-the-wo... > In February 1987, eight systems from five different countries – Germany, France, Sweden, Finland and Norway – were in the running for creating the new standard. Some competitors were backed by major companies, such as Bosch, Philips, Mobira (Nokia) and Ericsson. Eight cars were outfitted with equipment from each candidate system.* > The systems would be driven around Paris and the system’s transmission capacity and ability to continuously correct errors would be measured in the city’s narrow, windy streets. The system that transmitted the most data with the fewest errors would win. At first, the international press did not think the Norwegian GSM contribution was likely to win. In September 1986, the journal Communications Systems Worldwide wrote:“Since ELAB is attached to a Technical institute and has no manufacturing capability, it would appear to have little chance of success.” However, when the test was finished, the conclusion was clear: The Norwegian system was best. http://www.ntnu.no/gemini/2005-01e/gsm.htm http://www.ntnu.no/gemini/2005-01e/gsm.htm > All that was left was for a little known University based outfit from Norway to trundle around Paris with their lash-up of a narrow band TDMA system. The large industries hardly gave it a second thought. Then even bigger shock waves of seismic proportions emanated out of Paris. The Norwegian lash-up of a narrow band TDMA system from Trondheim University had outperformed the SEL wide band system from a star studded industrial consortium. http://www.gsmhistory.com/chapter/chapter-10-the-technology-choices-the-easy-bit/ http://www.gsmhistory.com/chapter/chapter-10-the-technology-...
mhomde 12y ago
So 60% it's the russians and 40% it's the US?
- the_rosentotter 12y ago
  Don't forget Israel, they are known for very active spying operations against European countries. In neighboring Denmark it was found that Mossad had been wiretapping the parliamentary overseer for years.
- acqq 12y ago
  More probably more different actors, everybody with its own interests. It's like you would for the first time learn about the tracking cookies in the web pages: you'd see a lot of them, ask "who's behind it," only later to recognize different interested parties using the same technology, some having more, some less presence. But, wow, a lot of stations are there.
- waterlesscloud 12y ago
  With some fringe chances it's OPEC or BP or some other oil related interest.
kyrre 12y ago
would you not have to do some 3g/4g jamming for this to actually work?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- rsync 12y ago
  No. A GSM phone will camp to the strongest signal, so your base station just needs to be slightly higher powered (or closer) than the legitimate base stations.
  - kyrre 12y ago
    So you are saying that a phone will drop down from umts or lte to gsm if the gsm signal is the strongest? i know it will resort to gsm as a backup, but i thought this happened only if 3g/4g was altogether unavailable?
acqq 12y ago
The article written in proper English by the same daily newspaper: http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Secret-surveillance-detected-in-Oslo-7825278.html http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Secret-surveillance-... The Google translation can be somewhat misleading, as explained in the other comments here.
- gus_massa 12y ago
  This is a short version of the story. The full version in available only in Norwegian.
  - acqq 12y ago
    That is of course written there: "The full story in Norwegian: Stortinget og statsministeren overvåkes" ( http://mm.aftenposten.no/stortinget-og-statsministeren-overvakes/ http://mm.aftenposten.no/stortinget-og-statsministeren-overv... ) The English speaking readers are still better informed about the basics when reading the real English article. Google Translate translated Norvegian "National Security Authority" (or "National Security Institution)" (NSM, Nasjonal Sikkerhetsmyndighet) as "National Security Agency" which is very misleading. That is, it's Norwegian "Nasjonal Sikkerhetsmyndighet" (NSM) who says that the spying devices don't belong to them. US NSA hasn't said anything. Once you read the English version, the Norwegian version can give you a better idea about the scale of the operation (if it's only one entity behind all the devices): the number of the snooping devices and of the points where suspicious traffic was detected seems to be quite big! The content is also nicely presented, all with the videos and the interactive maps (which sadly aren't translated by Google Translate).
- sctb 12y ago
  Thanks, we changed it from http://mm.aftenposten.no/stortinget-og-statsministeren-overvakes/ http://mm.aftenposten.no/stortinget-og-statsministeren-overv....
matt_morgan 12y ago
The big question for Norway, as they say, is "who is behind it?". The big question for all of us is how commonplace this is. It seems like it's easy enough to do, and law enforcement etc. don't seem to be looking for it actively/publicly.
- acqq 12y ago
  Speaking from another European country, for the ruling politicians it's a sensitive topic as there's a reasonable chance that some country, also a NATO member (the biggest one being you know who) is also a bit behind this. They certainly don't want to "risk the good relations" with the gorilla in the room, as confirmed in the events from the last year. On another side, supporting surveillance not done by the country itself is typically unconstitutional and punishable. Of course, there are also countries outside of NATO capable of orchestrating such an activity. In that case the chances increase that we'll soon hear much more. Finally, with the greatest probability, the different devices can belong to many different entities, both "allies" and "foes" so it can be tricky, but doable, to talk about only some of them. That's why they've officially just "found something" at the moment.
acd 12y ago
Brings up a concern there are no authenticity check in the mobile networks. Who signs the authenticity of cell towers? This should be like SSL with certificates so your phone should only communicate with towers that are certified secure. Hackers have been able todo this for years through GNU radio and FPGA. But this should be a foreign state. And if there are fake towers around the Norwegian parliament. Who, which hackers and what malware is potentially inside the computers of the cell phone operators of Norway? I would target them if I wanted to really listen in to cell phone communication across the country.
atmosx 12y ago
Hm, reminds me of the Athens affair[1]. [1] http://spectrum.ieee.org/telecom/security/the-athens-affair http://spectrum.ieee.org/telecom/security/the-athens-affair
vidarh 12y ago
My bet is that it's the Police Security Service that's behind it. After all, they have been behind the vast majority of illegal political surveillance in Norway after the war, and they were very dismissive when asked about trying to identify who were behind it (claiming it'd be difficult and pointless; so either they're unwilling to even try to do their job and/or are incompetent, or they know more than they let on). Spying by foreign powers have certainly happened in Norway, but the Police Security Service (or technically its "predecessor", the Police Surveillance Service) was found to have carried out extensive illegal surveillance of left wing politicians for the better part of half a century in the mid 90's at a level that no known foreign plot have gotten anywhere close to. If not the Police Security Service, I'd bet on the US with the tacit approval of the Police Security Service.
- e12e 12y ago
  Take this with a grain of salt, but I think there was a comment in one of the (Norwegian) video repirts on this that the Norwegian secret services got a heads up from the journalists, and was allowed to remove their equipment before they logged the data that is presented in map form on the Aftenposten web site. Implication being that the quarter surrounding the parliament is under surveillance (not surprising, possibly of questionable legality in Norway - but there might be directive somewhere allowing it (public or secret)) - and that there are "unknown" parties surveilling the area (my guess would be US, Russia and/or Israel). There's also a possible angle here re:Ukraine. There's a big push to paint Rusdia as dangerous (again) - yhis could be a Russian op, a false flag op, a NATO op to dilvulge a Russian op through alternate channels for better propaganda value... It'll be interesting to see what the investigation by Norwegian intelligence services (choose to) reveal.
  - vidarh 12y ago
    If you get a heads up from journalists that they are going to be looking, and you have a bunch of illegal monitoring going on, I for one would be very careful about doing anything, in case said journalists had been competent enough to do a pass before giving me a heads up, and use before/after scans to determine the extent of my own surveillance capabilities. It certainly possible it is foreign agencies - the US has been known to carry out questionable surveillance in Norway before - but the history of Norwegian intelligence makes me far more worried about them. Norwegian intelligence were illegally bugging the homes of people I knew into the 90's, and harassed them by having agents walk up to them on the streets to make fun of them for conversations they'd had with their families.
hkon 12y ago
My bet is on the chinese, making sure the peace price is delivered to the "right" people.
prbuckley 12y ago
Could this be financial espionage? I would imagine that the Norwegian politicians have privileged information about oil production volume in the country that some traders out there could benefit from knowing. This is all just a theory. I don't think governments are the only suspects in this type of spying.

305 points by draugadrotten 12y ago

tl;dr translation, multiple IMSI catchere in Oslo, Norway near goverment buildings, lots of suspecious data traffic from phone, all of unknown origin.

psykovsky 12y ago
TL;DR Cryptophone infomercial
- e12e 12y ago
  I don't know who downmodded you -- at least half of the coverage (in Norwegian) reads like a planted story. That doesn't mean the story doesn't have merit, though. There's an additional nice quote: "Måten dette overvåkingsutstyret opererer på, tyder på at det er svært avanserte systemer med en prislapp på mellom 500.000 kroner og to millioner kroner. Dette er utstyr som ikke er tillatt solgt til privatpersoner i NATO-land." "The way in which this monitoring equipment [the IMSI-catchers] operate, indicate that it is highly sophisticated, with a price tag from 500K NOK to 2M NOK [67K USD - 272K USD]. This is equipment that is illegal to sell to private citizens in NATO countries." (my translation, emphasis). On the other hand, we have eg: http://openbts.blogspot.no/2009/04/some-comments-on-imsi-catchers.html http://openbts.blogspot.no/2009/04/some-comments-on-imsi-cat... Pertinent quote, at the end: "the most common way to build an IMSI-catcher comes directly from the R&S patent itself and is based entirely on off-the-shelf commercial equipment. Nearly any BTS or BTS simulator can be used as the basis of an IMSI-catcher.". So yeah, typical "security industry" big words. Sure this stuff is illegal (if for nothing else, for operating in a regulated radio frequency band). Sure it's pretty sophisticated. I'm sure you'd have to pay through the nose if you bought it MILSPEC and off-the-shelf. But it's not like it's a fission device. Which is what the "illegal to sell to private citizens in NATO countries" sort of underhandedly implies.
  - semi-extrinsic 12y ago
    This setup should be able to do IMSI catching (total hardware cost $750): http://hackaday.com/2014/07/05/a-gsm-base-station-with-software-defined-radio/ http://hackaday.com/2014/07/05/a-gsm-base-station-with-softw...
  - acqq 12y ago
    I can't understand that somebody can see how many "catchers" were detected there and not be surprised unless he's actually working in that "industry." The value of the article is much higher than in mentioning a security product: we see how widespread these devices are. Don't forget, almost every phone is vulnerable on that level -- the operator's actions aren't protected by the phone's main operating system.
  - higherpurpose 12y ago
    The reason we even heard about some of these IMSI-catchers, like here in Norway or in that cryptophone firewall article, which mentions they discovered multiple across US, is because the guys behind Cryptophone used their product to look for them. That's what it does, and it's probably quite unique in the industry right. And yes, they go to the press to tell them about it, and then tell them how the product works to detect them. I don't really see this as an infomercial no more than all the thousands of the initial articles on touchscreen phones talked about the iPhone in them, since the iPhone was the first real touchscreen phone, and then all the other phones had to be compared to it.
    - maxerickson 12y ago
      I don't see a whole lot of press predating this article: http://www.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424053111904194604576583112723197574?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424053111904194604576583112723197574.html http://www.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405311190419460457... ( "'Stingray' Phone Tracker Fuels Constitutional Clash" is the headline if you need to bounce it through Google) The information there came from a court case and the Stingray patent (they publish an image of one). It's useful and interesting to be able to look for them, but it seems that the US legal system also played a part in disclosing the practice of using them.

eitland 12y ago

Interesting but in Norwegian. Google translate for those who haven't picked up Norwegian yet: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmm.aftenposten.no%2Fstortinget-og-statsministeren-overvakes%2F&edit-text=&act=url https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=y&prev...

acqq 12y ago
The (shorter) article carefully written and edited in English is here: "Secret surveillance detected in Oslo" http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Secret-surveillance-detected-in-Oslo-7825278.html http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Secret-surveillance-... "After being alerted by Aftenposten the Norwegian National Security Authority (NSM) started their own investigation. On Friday they confirmed that they had found traces of «something». - We have found something. All the data are not ready yet, but we have also found signals from IMSI-catchers in Oslo, says Hans Christian Pretorius, department head in NSM."
- runarb 12y ago
  "found something"? Seems a little vague to me. I hope they have a couple of hundred boots on the ground, going build to building to hunt thus devises down. I don't see why the Norwegian state should not react in the same way the Swedes dos each time they detect a foreign submarine in their fjords: to hunt for it with an overwhelming force.
  - acqq 12y ago
    There's a logic behind the vagueness, see my other comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8745217 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8745217 But I see you're from Norway, please keep us updated with the info only available in Norwegian! Thanks.

kszx 12y ago

The translated article says that the "police, Police Security Service and the National Security Agency" have the authority to use these types of devices. It seems very reasonable to me that they may do so around government areas. Did I miss something?

joars 12y ago
When the national secuity agency was told they started their own investigation on the following day, it may not say much but they had the opportunity to admit ownership and they didn't, which points in the directon of illegal activities.
mewwts 12y ago
These organizations were interviewed, and had the opportunity to remove their installations prior to the scanning. Also, according to PST, the installations they use are portable, fits in a suitcase, and such it would not make sense for them to go after the fake base stations..
acqq 12y ago
Note that when they talk about the "National Security Authority" (which only Google translated "agency") they actually write in the article "Nasjonal Sikkerhetsmyndighet" (NSM) which is the Norway's security authority: https://www.nsm.stat.no/ https://www.nsm.stat.no/ and not the US' NSA. So what we know is: "No Norwegian authority contacted by (the daily newspaper) Aftenposten said that this equipment belongs to them. Aftenposten has no reason to believe that the Norwegian authorities are behind the transmitters." The (shorter) article in English as written by Aftenposten: http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Secret-surveillance-detected-in-Oslo-7825278.html http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Secret-surveillance-...

roghummal 12y ago

The new acronym is {M|W}ITM. It's more inclusive. Can we get the title changed?

woah 12y ago
Thanks for your insightful contribution!
- walterbell 12y ago
  What was the contribution?
  - desdiv 12y ago
    >The new acronym is {M|W}ITM. It's more inclusive. Can we get the title changed? PS: There's an option, cryptically named "showdead", in your user settings that allows you to see flagkilled comments.
    - walterbell 12y ago
      Thanks.
dkopi 12y ago
Mallory (malicious) and Trudy (intruder) are often used in crypto books.

spacefight 12y ago

Are there any projects or methods on how to locate fake base stations? I know that the blackphone is able to do that, but is there more on the technical side of e.g. triangulating the location and track them down?

higherpurpose 12y ago
I think you meant the German-made Cryptophone 500, not Blackphone. http://www.wired.com/2014/09/cryptophone-firewall-identifies-rogue-cell-towers/ http://www.wired.com/2014/09/cryptophone-firewall-identifies... I recently discovered an IMSI-catcher app on the F-droid market for Android. It's called Android IMSI-Catcher Detector and you can easily find it in the Security category if you filter by it in the app. For some reason, I can't browse for it on the site. The project is in alpha stage and seems to be this one here: https://github.com/SecUpwN/Android-IMSI-Catcher-Detector https://github.com/SecUpwN/Android-IMSI-Catcher-Detector There's also this paper on making IMSI-catcher detectors: https://www.sba-research.org/wp-content/uploads/publications/AdrianDabrowski-IMSI-Catcher-Catcher-ACSAC2014-preprint-20140820.pdf https://www.sba-research.org/wp-content/uploads/publications... I hope to see more people working on this, though. In fact, I wish Google, Apple and Microsoft would add protections against IMSI-catchers by default in their mobile operating systems. After all it's already a known privacy issue affecting millions [1], and it seems not just in US either. They can't continue to pretend it doesn't exist anymore. [1] - http://www.wired.com/2014/11/feds-motherfng-stingrays-motherfng-planes/ http://www.wired.com/2014/11/feds-motherfng-stingrays-mother...
- e12e 12y ago
  There's another article (also in Norwegian): http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Slik-oppdaget-Aftenposten-de-falske-basestasjonene-i-Oslo--7824295.html http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Slik-oppdaget-Aftenp... They spotted the (presence of) IMSI-catchers with a GSMK Cryptophone, apparently. I actually come to HN just now, to see if their product had been shredded, I mean carefully analysed, here earlier ;-)
- spacefight 12y ago
  Thanks for the collection of further literature. I whish the network associations weren't undermined by the big five and wouldn't weaken their encryption standards to allow this.

riffraff 12y ago

interesting bit in the translation seems to be > If these are criminals, foreign intelligence or other behind, is unknown.

aragot 12y ago
It's ironic that criminals and governments can't be distinguished, after all the time they've spent fighting against terrorists.
vidarh 12y ago
Notably they've left out "Norwegian intelligence", though I guess after the revelations in the 90's that might be included in "criminals". (They were found to have spent decades carrying out illegal partisan political surveillance)

flexie 12y ago

Makes me wonder about the future of democracy. If tiny Norway, which imposes no real threat to any other country, including it's mighty neighbor, Russia, is a target for intelligence services, then every country is a target. Norway has little strategic importance and little influence on the world economy or world peace. Sure, they have lots of oil but its undisputed Norwegian and they sell it willingly. Sure, they are NATO members and at present the NATO secretary general is Norwegian, and they do participate in NATO actions in the Middle East. But their own military is modest, barely capable of defending Norway if it came down to it. And Norway has little say over the other NATO countries. I think the NATO secretary general, Stoltenberg, said it best himself when he described the Norwegian democracy as a fax democracy where Norwegian officials sit at a fax machine waiting for the latest directive from Brussels (Norway is not an EU member but part of the European Economic Area and must adopt most EU rules in order to keep their access to the Euroean single market). Anyone thinking that Norway has any real powers or impose a threat to anyone in the next 5-10 decades is delusional. So why and to whom is it vital to spy on these fax politicians whose international influence barely exceeds that of an American senator or governor or a member of a German Landtag?

higherpurpose 12y ago
We need to destroy their logic about "collecting everything, because they might need it in 100 years" first. They do it because it's so cheap, because they can, and because nobody is really standing up to them. However, if we allowed the government to do anything it wants "just because it can", thousands of our current laws wouldn't exist. I don't remember if it was Clapper or Alexander but one of them basically said the whole Snowden thing will blow-over, and they won't have to change a thing. From what we've seen already that seems to be the case. The watered down USA Freedom Act was killed, and they even made their collection powers stronger with that recent Intelligence Authorization Act. Can you believe that? Not even 2 years after the worldwide Snowden scandal, and they shamelessly push for even more spying powers. These people know nothing can touch them or stop them. And that speaks volumes about the state of our current democracies, when the will of the people, who are supposed to control their governments, and are the ones paying their budgets, have no say in the government's decisions. I highly recommend everyone watch this whole video here. It's an eye opener about many things, and I think he may be right about the root cause of the problem (vote transparency in Congress, which causes politicians to be bought, intimidated, and so on for their vote, just like it would happen with normal citizens's vote if it weren't anonymous): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gEz__sMVaY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gEz__sMVaY It's from the video where I learned about this new research that basically says: > The flat line for most Americans shows that no matter how popular a law was, Congress was about equally likely to pass it. Contrast that with the line for wealthy Americans, whose opinions substantially affect how likely a bill is to pass. http://bulletin.represent.us/u-s-oligarchy-explain-research http://bulletin.represent.us/u-s-oligarchy-explain-research

papul1993 12y ago

GSM is so broken.

maaaats 12y ago
Did this happen because of GSM? In that case it's a bit ironic, as big parts of GSM is invented by Norway.
- ehamberg 12y ago
  Norway invented everything from the Groupe Spécial Mobile group? Citation needed.
  - kyrre 12y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torleiv_Maseng http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torleiv_Maseng
  - maaaats 12y ago
    Did I say everything? > Another SINTEF-originated project is the radio technology behind GSM (Global System for Mobile Communications). Digital GSM (or 2G), replaced the old 1G analogue networks. http://theforeigner.no/pages/news/ways-norway-changed-the-world/ http://theforeigner.no/pages/news/ways-norway-changed-the-wo... > In February 1987, eight systems from five different countries – Germany, France, Sweden, Finland and Norway – were in the running for creating the new standard. Some competitors were backed by major companies, such as Bosch, Philips, Mobira (Nokia) and Ericsson. Eight cars were outfitted with equipment from each candidate system.* > The systems would be driven around Paris and the system’s transmission capacity and ability to continuously correct errors would be measured in the city’s narrow, windy streets. The system that transmitted the most data with the fewest errors would win. At first, the international press did not think the Norwegian GSM contribution was likely to win. In September 1986, the journal Communications Systems Worldwide wrote:“Since ELAB is attached to a Technical institute and has no manufacturing capability, it would appear to have little chance of success.” However, when the test was finished, the conclusion was clear: The Norwegian system was best. http://www.ntnu.no/gemini/2005-01e/gsm.htm http://www.ntnu.no/gemini/2005-01e/gsm.htm > All that was left was for a little known University based outfit from Norway to trundle around Paris with their lash-up of a narrow band TDMA system. The large industries hardly gave it a second thought. Then even bigger shock waves of seismic proportions emanated out of Paris. The Norwegian lash-up of a narrow band TDMA system from Trondheim University had outperformed the SEL wide band system from a star studded industrial consortium. http://www.gsmhistory.com/chapter/chapter-10-the-technology-choices-the-easy-bit/ http://www.gsmhistory.com/chapter/chapter-10-the-technology-...

mhomde 12y ago

So 60% it's the russians and 40% it's the US?

the_rosentotter 12y ago
Don't forget Israel, they are known for very active spying operations against European countries. In neighboring Denmark it was found that Mossad had been wiretapping the parliamentary overseer for years.
acqq 12y ago
More probably more different actors, everybody with its own interests. It's like you would for the first time learn about the tracking cookies in the web pages: you'd see a lot of them, ask "who's behind it," only later to recognize different interested parties using the same technology, some having more, some less presence. But, wow, a lot of stations are there.
waterlesscloud 12y ago
With some fringe chances it's OPEC or BP or some other oil related interest.

kyrre 12y ago

would you not have to do some 3g/4g jamming for this to actually work?

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
rsync 12y ago
No. A GSM phone will camp to the strongest signal, so your base station just needs to be slightly higher powered (or closer) than the legitimate base stations.
- kyrre 12y ago
  So you are saying that a phone will drop down from umts or lte to gsm if the gsm signal is the strongest? i know it will resort to gsm as a backup, but i thought this happened only if 3g/4g was altogether unavailable?

acqq 12y ago

The article written in proper English by the same daily newspaper: http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Secret-surveillance-detected-in-Oslo-7825278.html http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Secret-surveillance-... The Google translation can be somewhat misleading, as explained in the other comments here.

gus_massa 12y ago
This is a short version of the story. The full version in available only in Norwegian.
- acqq 12y ago
  That is of course written there: "The full story in Norwegian: Stortinget og statsministeren overvåkes" ( http://mm.aftenposten.no/stortinget-og-statsministeren-overvakes/ http://mm.aftenposten.no/stortinget-og-statsministeren-overv... ) The English speaking readers are still better informed about the basics when reading the real English article. Google Translate translated Norvegian "National Security Authority" (or "National Security Institution)" (NSM, Nasjonal Sikkerhetsmyndighet) as "National Security Agency" which is very misleading. That is, it's Norwegian "Nasjonal Sikkerhetsmyndighet" (NSM) who says that the spying devices don't belong to them. US NSA hasn't said anything. Once you read the English version, the Norwegian version can give you a better idea about the scale of the operation (if it's only one entity behind all the devices): the number of the snooping devices and of the points where suspicious traffic was detected seems to be quite big! The content is also nicely presented, all with the videos and the interactive maps (which sadly aren't translated by Google Translate).
sctb 12y ago
Thanks, we changed it from http://mm.aftenposten.no/stortinget-og-statsministeren-overvakes/ http://mm.aftenposten.no/stortinget-og-statsministeren-overv....

matt_morgan 12y ago

The big question for Norway, as they say, is "who is behind it?". The big question for all of us is how commonplace this is. It seems like it's easy enough to do, and law enforcement etc. don't seem to be looking for it actively/publicly.

acqq 12y ago
Speaking from another European country, for the ruling politicians it's a sensitive topic as there's a reasonable chance that some country, also a NATO member (the biggest one being you know who) is also a bit behind this. They certainly don't want to "risk the good relations" with the gorilla in the room, as confirmed in the events from the last year. On another side, supporting surveillance not done by the country itself is typically unconstitutional and punishable. Of course, there are also countries outside of NATO capable of orchestrating such an activity. In that case the chances increase that we'll soon hear much more. Finally, with the greatest probability, the different devices can belong to many different entities, both "allies" and "foes" so it can be tricky, but doable, to talk about only some of them. That's why they've officially just "found something" at the moment.

acd 12y ago

Brings up a concern there are no authenticity check in the mobile networks. Who signs the authenticity of cell towers? This should be like SSL with certificates so your phone should only communicate with towers that are certified secure. Hackers have been able todo this for years through GNU radio and FPGA. But this should be a foreign state. And if there are fake towers around the Norwegian parliament. Who, which hackers and what malware is potentially inside the computers of the cell phone operators of Norway? I would target them if I wanted to really listen in to cell phone communication across the country.

atmosx 12y ago

Hm, reminds me of the Athens affair[1]. [1] http://spectrum.ieee.org/telecom/security/the-athens-affair http://spectrum.ieee.org/telecom/security/the-athens-affair

vidarh 12y ago

My bet is that it's the Police Security Service that's behind it. After all, they have been behind the vast majority of illegal political surveillance in Norway after the war, and they were very dismissive when asked about trying to identify who were behind it (claiming it'd be difficult and pointless; so either they're unwilling to even try to do their job and/or are incompetent, or they know more than they let on). Spying by foreign powers have certainly happened in Norway, but the Police Security Service (or technically its "predecessor", the Police Surveillance Service) was found to have carried out extensive illegal surveillance of left wing politicians for the better part of half a century in the mid 90's at a level that no known foreign plot have gotten anywhere close to. If not the Police Security Service, I'd bet on the US with the tacit approval of the Police Security Service.

e12e 12y ago
Take this with a grain of salt, but I think there was a comment in one of the (Norwegian) video repirts on this that the Norwegian secret services got a heads up from the journalists, and was allowed to remove their equipment before they logged the data that is presented in map form on the Aftenposten web site. Implication being that the quarter surrounding the parliament is under surveillance (not surprising, possibly of questionable legality in Norway - but there might be directive somewhere allowing it (public or secret)) - and that there are "unknown" parties surveilling the area (my guess would be US, Russia and/or Israel). There's also a possible angle here re:Ukraine. There's a big push to paint Rusdia as dangerous (again) - yhis could be a Russian op, a false flag op, a NATO op to dilvulge a Russian op through alternate channels for better propaganda value... It'll be interesting to see what the investigation by Norwegian intelligence services (choose to) reveal.
- vidarh 12y ago
  If you get a heads up from journalists that they are going to be looking, and you have a bunch of illegal monitoring going on, I for one would be very careful about doing anything, in case said journalists had been competent enough to do a pass before giving me a heads up, and use before/after scans to determine the extent of my own surveillance capabilities. It certainly possible it is foreign agencies - the US has been known to carry out questionable surveillance in Norway before - but the history of Norwegian intelligence makes me far more worried about them. Norwegian intelligence were illegally bugging the homes of people I knew into the 90's, and harassed them by having agents walk up to them on the streets to make fun of them for conversations they'd had with their families.

hkon 12y ago

My bet is on the chinese, making sure the peace price is delivered to the "right" people.

prbuckley 12y ago

Could this be financial espionage? I would imagine that the Norwegian politicians have privileged information about oil production volume in the country that some traders out there could benefit from knowing. This is all just a theory. I don't think governments are the only suspects in this type of spying.