16 ms·

If money doesn't make you happy, you probably aren't spending it right (2010) [pdf]

258 points by monort 12y ago

comboy 12y ago
It's all about your utility function. If you are not optimizing for personal happiness but for something else, then the fact that it doesn't make you happy doesn't mean you aren't spending it right.
collyw 12y ago
I was happiest 15 years ago working as a raft guide and traveling the world. I had very little money then, but I was very happy. I got to do what I loved every day. I usually made two large purchases per year (the opposite of what this article suggests) - a kayak and a return ticket to my next destination. I now sit in front of a computer. Earn OK money but not enough to retire on anytime soon (I am in Spain just now, money isn't great here). I guess I make lots more smaller purchases than I did in the old days (though they are usually far less meaningful to me than the large purchases I made back then). I was definitely happier back then.
- mparlane 12y ago
  Your old life reminded me of the Mexican fisherman story :) http://bemorewithless.com/the-story-of-the-mexican-fisherman/ http://bemorewithless.com/the-story-of-the-mexican-fisherman...
  - verroq 12y ago
    The difference is that you have to fish everyday, or you starve and you can't "play with your kids, take siestas with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos" any more. Where as in the 15 years later version, you don't need to fish at all.
    - markyc 12y ago
      if he loves to fish that shouldn't be a problem though, thus giving him 15 extra years of peaceful life i know, he could get injured and not be able to fish, but on that note, in 15 years he could find out he has cancer and not be able to enjoy his money
      - icebraining 12y ago
        His kids would, though.
        markyc 12y ago
        they may prefer 15 years of quality time with dad to a load of cash PS: I'd love to hear some arguments on this, not just simple downvotes. Is HN turning into a place like: "you don't think like me, so I'm downvoting you and moving along"?
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        thelogos 12y ago
        If you've ever fished for a living, the argument seems ludicrous. Fishing can be treacherous work. You might get rich with a big haul or die when the whether turns bad. There are many factors, enviromental pollution, ecosystem changing, etc. It's not unusual for these small local fishermen to have very very bad years. And it's not just small outfits that hit tough times, do some research on the tuna industry and decline in tuna population. Reality doesn't always go along with our cozy zen story. We haven't even mentioned the fact that turning your hobby into a job is quite often a very bad idea.
        smileysteve 12y ago
        In the case of the story of the fisherman in Mexico, he is not going on big hauls that pay big bucks. He is in a small one man boat in a bay. He is not catching thousands of pounds of fish, he is catching 2-5 fish a day.
  - thisjepisje 12y ago
    Sounds like a rewrite of this 1963 German story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anekdote_zur_Senkung_der_Arbeitsmoral http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anekdote_zur_Senkung_der_Arbeit... Well worth reading if you speak German: http://www.aloj.us.es/webdeutsch/s_3/transkriptionen/l_26_str10_trans.pdf http://www.aloj.us.es/webdeutsch/s_3/transkriptionen/l_26_st...
- aangjie 12y ago
  It's probably true to the extent that buying small pleasures vs large pleasures works in this case. However there's another factor they mention, "Buy experiences not things". This was fulfilled for you simply by doing the raft guide and travelling without spending money for it. It's also arguable raft guide means helping others ,but not necessary to explain why you were happier in the old day.s
  - coldtea 12y ago
    The problem is that when you "buy" the experience, the experience becomes a "thing". An experience is either something genuine or a product. A product is a thing, and money changes a lot of it's attributes.
    - emotionalcode 12y ago
      Getting ripped to shreds by a lion can be a genuine experience, but that doesn't mean I desire it. If you enjoy something you can buy with money, there is likewise no need to taint the experience bleak simply because it was money that enabled you to experience it. I have no doubt that money changes the attributes of a thing sometimes, but so can any other attribute, including the way you collectively simplify a set of attributes and make a comparison to an ideal.
      - Retric 12y ago
        Experience: A wonderful night dancing with a beautiful woman. Now add and subtract money and it's a very different experience even if everything else stayed the same. Compare walking down to the beach on a Friday afternoon after work and taking a week vacation to fly to that same beach and spending your last Friday evening walking around.
        emotionalcode 12y ago
        Experience: being a woman people have call beautiful; experiencing wondering whether I am persistently being evaluated on a superficial characteristic. We all can draw abstract lines in the sand and overgeneralize to have opinions and make points. It doesn't mean it tells the entire story, nor does it mean it's correct forever.
- emotionalcode 12y ago
  I can't tell if I'm happier now. When I was a grad student I was always stressed over money, and my health was very bad (this is atypical, I should have been on more responsible about my health rather than dismissing it to promising to see the doctor after the next deadline). I have to work harder to learn new things, and I don't have access to a community that is intrinsically connected to the computer science research community. My health is better now, and I can depend on myself to provide for myself, but sometimes it does just feel like there's a hole that money can't fill. I often feel like I have to continually keep my mind focused on not giving up on higher education or the act of responsibly confusing myself with too much study, just because I happen to be good at software development in a different regard. The ability to be totally lost in a class way beyond the depth I saw myself capable of surmounting was a luxury I took seriously for granted.
- CmonDev 12y ago
  Salary is not money. Money is when your "work" is choosing where to invest.
- personlurking 12y ago
  I suppose this must resonate with you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syJXrbWU1Aw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syJXrbWU1Aw It does with me, though the being alone part might bother me after a bit, despite traveling on my own most of my life.
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  We were all happier in our youth. Not a lot to do with money or position; had to do with being in your 20's?
  - tormeh 12y ago
    My parents tell me they're way happier now, in their 50s, than they were in their 20s. I'm in 25 now and I'm not feeling that good. It's become all right, but I wouldn't want it to get worse, that's for sure.
    - tonyedgecombe 12y ago
      My experience has been the same, I'm much happier in middle age than I was earlier in life.
  - Daishiman 12y ago
    If you're not getting progressively happier with your life under fairly normal circumstances, you're doing it wrong. Seriously; unless there is something that has fucked your life so badly, you should have been spending your time thinking, reflecting and experiencing what makes your happy and more satisfied, and trying to pierce through the bullshit of society's expectations versus your own needs and wants. No one is exempt from the tragedies of life, but there's not excuse for not being mindful of what enriches your soul.
- thorin 12y ago
  What rivers did you guide on? I've traveled a lot independently kayaking in between work and it was a lot of fun...
  - collyw 12y ago
    Worked in Austria, Inn, Oetz, Sanna, Mexico on the Copalita and Chile on the Petrohoue. Chile is a superb destination for whitewater, I spent the start and end of the season kayaking in different areas.
- lmm 12y ago
  If you were happier back then, why don't you go back to doing that?
  - collyw 12y ago
    I am tempted, but its not a lot of money to save for a retirement. Plus, its pretty hard on your body.
k__ 12y ago
A year ago I stopped spending my money on "things" and start spending it on free time. My life is much better now.
- custardcream 12y ago
  I have a similar approach albeit a different manifestation I suspect: I try to avoid accumulating money as compensation of my time. If I'm not being paid, I'm not working so I tend to work what I need to. If I am being paid, I'm making sure it's as much as I can get to avoid having to get more.
- balou 12y ago
  This is indeed so true; yet money doesn't buy time. Unless you are in your dream location there's always inherent costs to visiting relatives / friends, match their schedule, or simply go wherever you feel good. So you end-up with a double need for money ;) Still ... I fully agree!
  - k__ 12y ago
    Problem is, I have to pay for rent, food and health care. So every day I work is a future day I don't have to work.
  - Tepix 12y ago
    In some degree, it does. If you have more money than you need, you can opt to work less hours (not everyone can, but in Germany for example most people have that option).
ggreer 12y ago
Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3922794 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3922794 I'm guessing this was submitted because I linked to it in a comment.[1] 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8581524 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8581524
dschiptsov 12y ago
“Money doesn’t just buy you a better life — better food, better cars, better pussy — it also makes you a better person. You can give generously to the church of your choice or the political party. You can save the fucking spotted owl with money.” I know, I know.)
xacbas 12y ago
Summary: http://www.forbes.com/sites/tombarlow/2011/06/15/how-to-buy-happiness-with-money/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/tombarlow/2011/06/15/how-to-buy-...
bane 12y ago
Money may not buy happiness, but it's strange how often it's a factor in things that make you unhappy. The unhappiest I've ever been was during a difficult period with my family. Money was definitely involved, and the center of much of the issue, but it was the troubles in the relationship with people close to me that made me unhappy. If money had never been an issue, I never would have had either trouble and things would be different today. The money part of the situation was trivially resolvable, but the relationship one has lingered for the better part of two decades and looks like it'll never find a satisfactory conclusion.
- Cthulhu_ 12y ago
  "Money doesn't buy happiness" is something said by either the very rich - who don't have to worry about money - or the very poor - to avoid getting even more unhappy about their situation. Having trouble paying the bills will cause stress, stress causes relational issues and whatnot. Money doesn't buy happiness, but it does help with the basics of life. Which is why a minimum wage and by extension liveable income if you're unable to work should be a basic human right. That, or a similar form of supplying basic human needs - housing, food, water, clothing, privacy, access to information, hygene, etc.
  - vidarh 12y ago
    "Money doesn't buy happiness" is largely demonstrably true for most people in their current situations. The available research does not back up any large correlation - causative or not - between happiness and wealth outside of very extreme situations: If you starve, or lack shelter, money unambiguously increases average happiness substantially. Once you are fed and have somewhere to live - even if crappy - peoples happiness are minimally affected by additional money. There are ways which you can leverage more money to increase your happiness, but interestingly the best approaches involve living below your means, no matter how much or little you have: The most efficient way of leveraging wealth into happiness is to ensure that you build a buffer so that you can maintain a slow, steady upwards trajectory as much as possible.
    - 12y ago
amelius 12y ago
“While money can't buy happiness, it certainly lets you choose your own form of misery.” ― Groucho Marx
netcan 12y ago
There are all sorts of complexities here that's difficult to capture in sweeping statements, statistics, principles or studies. Money (problems) are the source of lots of unhappiness. Stress and its consequences. Failing to make ends meet is stressful and unhappy. While being a broke and careless 26 year old in love might be fun, in most circumstances being broke sucks. Choosing between a dentist or ballet class for your 5 year old is not pleasant. There are noncausational correlations between making money and happiness. To a large extent, having money is one big example of successfully functioning in our society. It's therefore probably correlated with all sorts of other types of functioning. Making money is often succeeding at controlling your life. It's similar to other successes at controlling one's life (deliberately and successfully choosing a career or family life). These are related to happiness. Feeling successful is pleasant in itself. Most of us work most of our lives. Money is the main reason. Not making much money is (with many exceptions) failing to make more money, failure is unpleasant. My Shtick recently is attempting to be deliberate. There's a lot of romanticism around serendipity, less so about deliberate action. They're not really competitive, but they often feel like they are. In any case, spending your money in a more happiness generating way is being deliberate about being happy. It extends past money. Be deliberate about spending your time, your effort and anything else you spend on happiness and you will probably be more happy.
- vidarh 12y ago
  Money are the source of lots of unhappiness, but as they point out: We adapt. The research does not support that "being broke sucks". The research supports that starving and being homeless sucks. The moment you are not starving, and have shelter, peoples happiness level is on average almost as high as the happiness level of a rich person. > Feeling successful is pleasant in itself. It may be, but as we adapt to having little money and success, so do we adapt to having lots of money and lots of success. It does not bring substantial added happiness other than shortly after we achieve it. Being given a raise, or promotion, or public praise gives us happiness, but that happiness fades very quickly. Similarly, not making much money, or failing, is unpleasant but the unhappiness it causes is very much temporary unless you keep doing worse. Avoiding adaption to an improved situation, and ensuring adaption to a worse situation is key to maximising happiness. You are best served by a slow, steady "drip" of improvement than suddenly achieving wealth, fame or success for example. Conversely, if you need to make cuts, you are far better off cutting your expenditure further than necessary, get used to it, and slowly see things improving, than you are making small cuts with the risk of having to cut back further. Apart from relative effects on adapation, money overall has very little direct impact on happiness other than at the extremes: If you starve; if you're homeless; if you lack access to mental health services; if you lack access to health services that can prevent or slow a degenerative condition (pretty much any catastrophic health change is subject to adaptation as long as the change is over quickly - e.g. amputees are as happy as most people relatively soon afterwards - but conditions that slowly become worse avoids adaptation). (See Jonathan Haidt's "The Happiness Hypothesis" for more on this, and a decent chunk of references)
michokest 12y ago
Last year I sold some stock from my last startup, a little over $1m after taxes, and I can say it's definitely changed things for the better. In this period of time, I have been able to: - Quit my founder position at that startup (thus avoiding potentially being tied to vesting or retention clauses, in case of an acquisition) - Own my house, and invest in a few other apartments, which turned into a little side business with great margins - Start a new company investing my own money, and not requiring a salary - Travel and live in a few different cities as I build the new startup - Completely forget about the price tag when buying small-ticket things: a taxi ride, asking for an extra plate, an occasional flight, paying a round of drinks It's not as it money made me happy by spending it, but it did remove a lot of the constraints I had before. It's made me feel like the default state would be to be carefree and happy, and as long as you can keep the worries and the stress away, everything will go alright. As a new worry, I now spend a lot of time thinking about how to reinvest it wisely and continue living like this. It's not overwhelming, and it's not very different than what doing my finances felt like before, but doing it a larger scale adds a new dimension to it.
- nathanvanfleet 12y ago
  I have often thought about how much happier I would be if I had enough money to not really balk paying for a mid-level sushi restaurant every week or so. Though ultimately I'm not sure how much more money I'd have to make before having that comfort. It would be nice though.
  - clavalle 12y ago
    It is interesting. 99% of the time you don't even think about it, or write it off with half a thought as you are busy and want to eat healthy, quality food but occasionally it occurs to you "You know, I don't even have to think about this." and remember a time when you did. Progress is a great feeling.
- nathanvanfleet 12y ago
  I have often thought about how much happier I would be if I had enough money to not really balk paying for a mid-level sushi restaurant every week or so. Though ultimately I'm not sure how much more money I'd have to make before having that comfort. It would be nice though.
tempodox 12y ago
Yep, I always knew it's entirely my own fault that I'm not happy. I just have to get better at spending money. Why didn't I think of that myself. I'll get out now and find myself a coach that will teach me all the tricks I need to know. After all if you can buy everything, why not the knowledge on how to get happy spending money? It's so easy once you look at it the right way!
unknownBits 12y ago
Money is the most tricky thing men will ever face. Not talking about extreme poverty here, the following is what I've learned: More money leads in almost all people to artificial value, short term superficial happiness, degradation of the soul. On the outside it looks great and shiny, but on the inside the soul starves and craves true happiness. Unfortunately, most rich people react unconsciously by spending more and more, in a desperate effort to fill the ever growing gap. Longer term less money creates in almost all people higher valuation of the most simple and basic things, which translates to true happiness for the soul. Less money can restore happiness if people are willing. But there is of course a lot more affected by the money in our lives, especially the ego. A rich men easily thinks he is really someone, a 'great' man, special, gifted, etc.. The poor man will most often struggle with the opposite thoughts and feelings, while in the end it's all false. If I ever again have quite some money to spend, I'll be very vigilant, you'll see me desperately trying to hold myself back. Never trade your soul for money (or power) is my advice. And if you have a lot of it, use a substantial part to help poor children for example, give them food, education, that will create you some ever lasting happiness, at least, if you can hold yourself back from growing your ego on that.
- agumonkey 12y ago
  I can feel this in other domains too: relationships (short term, hormonal, struggle-free), knowledge (web era, ease of access, no deep integration, no effort into reaching, organizing, interpreting). There's a subtle paradox in ourselves for we crave easiness when I believe what we need is to learn how to abstract over complexity.
- clavalle 12y ago
  >More money leads in almost all people to artificial value, short term superficial happiness, degradation of the soul. I could not disagree more. In the vast majority of cases, money leads to less misery. Then you just lead your life without the obsessive material thoughts so many struggle with. I do agree with your last point, though, that once you reach a certain level of stability, you should focus on either reducing other people's misery if you have the power to do so or creating things (either yourself or by proxy) that wouldn't exist in the world without your help.
duwip 12y ago
Related TED talk for those interested: http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_norton_how_to_buy_happiness http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_norton_how_to_buy_happiness
ElectricMonk79 12y ago
"Principle 1: Buy experiences instead of things" Figure 1 - highest on the happiness index is "making love" I see what you're saying. ;)
arielweisberg 12y ago
I poor all the money I can into my future self. That actually does make me happy. I don't see lifestyle inflation as a good idea especially for young people.
- mcdougle 12y ago
  Me too. I figure, if I can get some shit done in my 20s, I can have a pretty sweet time in my 30s, running a small company and spending time with my future family rather than working an unfulfilling 9 to 5 and trying to make up for it by partying hard on the weekends.
gexla 12y ago
Try living in a medium size city in the Philippines. There are neighborhood stores here all over the place and they don't charge much more than you would have to pay by buying in bulk at a larger store. When I'm not shopping at a neighborhood store, I go to the local market. Each of these places are very bland. Basically just a bamboo or concrete house with the products hanging or stacked up in shelves. Often you just order through a barred window and they give you what you ask for. After shopping like this for months, walking into a regular grocery store is an assault on the senses. Packaging, marketing and colors everywhere. Things at the smaller stores are also really cheap because the locals have to be able to afford them. At the larger grocery stores I'm floored by the prices of everything. I avoid grocery stores as much as possible. The selection of products here is slim. I can spend all day looking around different stores and not find one thing on my wishlist. Otherwise I find nothing interesting. Many products are cheap and low quality because expensive items don't sell. I'm happy living here and I have the things I really need. Happy + have everything I really need + have money + nothing to spend money on = abundance of sorts. I don't know if I feel rich, but it's strange feeling like money doesn't really do me much good. Daily expenses are super cheap. I only have going out to eat to spend money on. My favorite meals only cost $1 - $3. When everything is cheap, an expensive meal seems excessive. Further screwing with me is that I can help out with simple tech stuff at these restaurants and I can eat for free. Business owners here don't know how to use things like Facebook, which is basically the internet for the Philippines. It's not really worth my time, but I like to help. There goes my main expense outside of rent and utilities.
- hawkice 12y ago
  Indeed. It's somewhat durable, too -- while I certainly experience a lot more luxury since I left Davao, I'm no longer comfortable with even LA-without-a-car level extravagance being treated lightly. I think it's worth pointing out the mirror of your thoughts (which are completely correct -- if you haven't had cheap and simple options, there is a deep luxury to it): If you're going to buy nice things -- which are the only options in America, truly -- enjoy them. Food and housing seem so obvious to me. Like, you can get a chicken sandwich here, and eat something that is recognizably made of chicken (you can in the Philippines too, it's just that's more fancy than normal). I guess it never struck me how much of a luxury even the low-end of American foodstuffs are. And I can get an apartment near Detroit that (1) can be air-conditioned to exactly the temperature I want, and not just a tolerable temperature, and (2) is, well... nice. Not falling apart, no holes in walls or things, consistent electricity, internet speeds exceeding 100kb/s (often by 30x). Now, I don't need all this luxury, but man, the modest increase in expenses (maybe 2x? I live pretty cheap in America) definitely increases quality of life. If it didn't, I would probably not live here.
arscan 12y ago
These 2 put out a book on the subject as well. It's worth a read if you found this paper helpful. http://books.simonandschuster.com/Happy-Money/Elizabeth-Dunn/9781451665079 http://books.simonandschuster.com/Happy-Money/Elizabeth-Dunn...
pit 12y ago
Ah, yes. "If you can't spend dough, what [are] you hustlin' for?"
ericdykstra 12y ago
The generalizations in this paper based on cherry-picked studies aren't very convincing. How people react in contrived situations, and how people live their life are quite a bit different. The word "suggest" appears 17 times in this article, where the author extrapolates from the findings of a single research experiment. It reads more like an opinion piece than anything scientific, and I'm certainly not going to change my habits from what's written in it.
paulhauggis 12y ago
Money sure makes me happy. I hate working for other people and my profiyltable business has allowed me to continue to work for myself.
gchokov 12y ago
<sarcasm>What an actual topic for hacker news community! I bet this topic will go to top 3!</sarcasm>
rasengan 12y ago
Coming from the hood, I wanted to say that I could not disagree with this article more. Life is fair. Just like the late poet said, "More money, more problems." Life always finds a way of balancing itself out.
- SnacksOnAPlane 12y ago
  People who say "life is fair" are usually the ones who have an easy life. It's a way to blame people for their problems.
  - zo1 12y ago
    "It's a way to blame people for their problems." Why does blame have to be part of it? Or are you saying that people who use that phrase are implying that people are to blame for what problems they have because life itself is fair?
    - SnacksOnAPlane 12y ago
      Yeah, I'm saying that people who say "life is fair" usually haven't had horrible problems like birth defects or having their house burn down. It's also a way for people who have had incredibly good luck to rationalize why they have it so easy while other people struggle.
      - rasengan 12y ago
        I'll share my story with the world soon. My life wasn't easy at all, and unfortunately, it still isn't. However, I'm working as hard as I can.
Jun8 12y ago
Somerset Maugham has a nice quote in Of Human Bondage: "Money is like a sixth sense without which you cannot make a complete use of the other five." Although he does have a point I don't quite agree with that POV. What I think money should be viewed as (we're talking about a good amount of money here, let's say 2-3x your living expenses) a super power. Like all super powers it can be used for good or evil (or, more probably, wasted). You can do a lot of good with a relatively small amount of money. You really cannot do this or think about such things if you don't know where your next lunch is coming from or if you will be able to afford to send your kids to college.
novalis78 12y ago
One of the greatest books IMHO which gives very practical advice how to achieve and maintain happiness in life is Raymond Hull's old classic (1969) "How to get what you want". Interestingly enough (and although written by a Canadian) it is quite well known in Europe, not so much in the US: http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/how-to-get-what-you-want-raymond-hull/1001022338?ean=2940150528680 http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/how-to-get-what-you-want-ray... the comment section on amazon is interesting to read as well: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0671783270/ http://www.amazon.com/dp/0671783270/
softdev12 12y ago
For anyone who is interested in a shorter version of this journal article, Wall Street Journal reporter Andrew Blackman posted an article today titled "Can Money Buy Happiness? Here's What the Science Says." It's behind a paywall, which is why the harvard journal article is listed here (I'm assuming). But if you have a subscription, the link is at http://online.wsj.com/articles/can-money-buy-happiness-heres-what-science-has-to-say-1415569538 http://online.wsj.com/articles/can-money-buy-happiness-heres... The main points seem to be: 1) at the margin, it's better to spend money on fleeting experiences over material goods 2) money buys happiness up to a point (i.e. $75K per year, then there's diminishing returns) 3) don't get into debt or you're in for sadness
themagician 12y ago
I used to have money. When I got divorced I decided I would let my wife have it all. It was mostly hers to begin with, so it wasn't some great act of generosity. She walked away with somewhere around $2MM in liquidity. I walked away with about $10,000. It's really made very little difference. Money makes some things easier, but I wouldn't associate that with happy. They are two separate things. There was a time when I thought money would make me happy, and I think there was a time where maybe it did, but there was a realization that my "happiness" wasn't my own. I don't even know if that makes sense to anyone but me, but that's the only way I can articulate it. I was happy because I thought I should be happy with all the stuff and "freedom", but at the end of the day I didn't really care about those things. Now I'm in this place, this awkward state, where money can't buy any of the things I want. It's a confusing place to be because the world doesn't really operate that way. I wish money made me happy. That would make everything much easier.
- ryusage 12y ago
  I saw a good TED talk[1] a while ago about this topic, and the speaker made the interesting point that people use the word happiness to mean different things. You can ask someone how happy they are feeling at a given moment, or you can ask them how happy they are with their life in general. And we evaluate those two feelings in very different ways. He mentions at one point that studies about how people feel in the moment were very correlated with money, but only up to the point that they didn't need to worry about it anymore. After that, it had little bearing on their experiential happiness. But when asked how happy they were with their lives, the more money, the better, with no limit. Which seems to me more like pride in an achievement. I wonder if the happiness that wasn't "your own" was because part of you was happy when you thought about where you were in life, but you were also aware it wasn't really improving your day-to-day experience. Kind of a cognitive dissonance between the two ways you were evaluating your happiness. I don't know, you think that's even close? [1] http://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_kahneman_the_riddle_of_experience_vs_memory http://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_kahneman_the_riddle_of_exper...
  - themagician 12y ago
    That's somewhat accurate. I'd not seen this TED talk either, so thanks. The day-to-day didn't really change above a certain income, and that income limit (at least for me) was pretty low. Even living in both Manhattan and San Francisco where things are expensive. All the things I enjoy aren't really that expensive. You don't need millions of dollars to read a book, watch a movie, listen to an album, or have sex. These things are only very marginally improved above let's say, the $75K mark. You don't even need millions of dollars to go out to eat every night. Money can give you more discretionary time. But that free time can't be spent in any way (at least none that I found) that feels rewarding while everyone else you know or care about is at work. You are still bound to rest of the world. I think that's what I like about more European, or day I say socialist, lifestyles. I need other people to spend time with. I've found hanging out with extremely wealthy people who don't do anything to be extremely boring and almost uncomfortable. If I woke up tomorrow and suddenly had $10 million I'm not sure I'd be any happier. I'd go out and buy some new clothes I guess, a bigger apartment maybe. I'd still wake up in the morning and turn on the radio to listen to NPR. I'd still eat the same yogurt, same strawberries. People start to do silly things with money I don't understand. Giant TVs they don't know how to work, fancy cars they never drive. Or buy some house with rooms that sit empty. I'm just like, why? Why would you do that? When people say these things make them "happy" I wonder if we actually feel completely different emotions.
ToastyMallows 12y ago
In this thread: Generalizations
toblender 12y ago
This reminds me of a great story: http://totalfratmove.com/guy-goes-to-mexico-to-kill-himself-spends-week-doing-coke-and-banging-hookers-decides-to-keep-living/ http://totalfratmove.com/guy-goes-to-mexico-to-kill-himself-... There are no NSFW pictures just a text...
toblender 12y ago
This reminds me of a great story: http://totalfratmove.com/guy-goes-to-mexico-to-kill-himself-spends-week-doing-coke-and-banging-hookers-decides-to-keep-living/ http://totalfratmove.com/guy-goes-to-mexico-to-kill-himself-... There are no NSFW pictures just a great story...
deleted 12y ago
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kstenerud 12y ago
While I can see how principles 7 and 8 could help most people, they wouldn't work for me. Every purchase of an item I intended to use long term (2 years or more) was preceded by anywhere from days to weeks of research, reviews, and comparison shopping. It's a huge brain drain, but it was worth it. I now have 98% of all possessions I'd want, with the remaining 2% having not reached the right opportunity yet (I'm also quite frugal). More importantly, I did not follow the herd. I found that an overall rating is a good rough indicator (thus saving many hours of work on my part), but you still need to look into individual reviews, because not everyone has the same tastes or standards or needs or use cases as you. I now have a comfortable place, possessions that are built to last, and very few wants that would require more money to satisfy. So has money bought me happiness? I believe a better way to phrase it would be to say that money is no longer a barrier to my happiness.
- claytonjy 12y ago
  Because you seem content with this path, may I ask how old you are, or at least how long you've been on this path? I'm also curious to hear examples of the 2% you mention. I'm young but I try to have this same approach of taking the time to buy nice things which will last (furniture, kitchenware, camping gear), and tend to be a bit obsessive about ratings + reviews. I sometimes wonder if this is the "right" approach or if I would be happier buying cheaper crap and spending less time doing it. I do find strong intrinsic value when I'm confident I bought the thing which best fits my needs after doing hours/days of research.
  - Daishiman 12y ago
    Believe me, having durable goods is one of the few material things that have brought me lasting happiness (or at least made me avoid chronic unhappiness). It really depends on the class of goods. I enjoy high-quality audio, so I made the effort to do some research and spent decent money on a good sound card and two high-end headphones. End of story; it's unlikely that I'll need a replacement for those things for a decade. Thankfully there are tons of good products in the area and it makes little sense to sweat it once you're found a dozen good choices. As far as furniture goes; it really depends on how obsessive you are on design and interior decoration. There's a healthy compromise to strike between utility, cost, and aesthetics, and my experience is that once you have a solid idea for your interior decoration (which is not easy, mind you) you're probably good to go; minor blemished and defects should not detract from your satisfaction. In kitchenware, solid and cheap is a good combination. Apart from knives, the most important thing is build quality, but a cheap cast-iron pan is good as long as you're not burning stuff.
Chinjut 12y ago
Everything else being equal, of course I'd be happier to have more money. But all things aren't equal, and many of the things one is supposed to spend one's time on in order to make maximal money are things I am unhappy spending my time on. (That having been said, the article is about getting the best happiness bang from whatever bucks you do have, which I have no argument with. I suppose I'm just saying, in many cases, the optimal happiness I could purchase with some money stream is the free time "purchased" by not working for it in the first place.)
pehtis 12y ago
Money works like RAM: More RAM than the running processes require will not make your computer any faster, but if you run out of RAM it will make it slower.
- AndyNemmity 12y ago
  That's a really interesting way to look at it. I think you're right, thanks for including that piece of insight. To continue - Having more RAM also makes you more likely to run programs you don't need, or don't care about. Limiting the RAM left available for the applications you do. It's easier to kill processes though than drains on your income.
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    How do you know what programs you need to run? Why would we think all the good ones are low-RAM? I'd need to see a profile of apps and RAM to even begin to conclude anything. Either the analogy isn't working, or more money (or RAM) has a good chance of letting me do more things that I value. I think the 2nd.
    - Daishiman 12y ago
      > How do you know what programs you need to run? Why would we think all the good ones are low-RAM? I'd need to see a profile of apps and RAM to even begin to conclude anything. Wisdom, aging, getting to know yourself. I sure love a $300 meal, but eating out 5 times a week isn't going to make me any happier than going to that place once a month and cooking on my own the rest of the time; maybe ordering a cheap dish at my favorite Chinese place. If you enjoy looking good and your wardrobe already has everything you could reasonably wear on a day-to-day basis and some special events, the chances that an additional piece of clothing will make a marked difference on your happiness is extremely low. If you have sex with your lover as much as you could possibly want, more sex will not increase your quality of life; most likely it will be a negative. There's a point where we just saturate on the hedonistic aspects of life, even the ones with supposed higher purposes.
dalacv 12y ago
The happiest people I've ever met were those who had just enough money / education to be comfortable but just little enough to not know any better.

258 points by monort 12y ago

It's all about your utility function. If you are not optimizing for personal happiness but for something else, then the fact that it doesn't make you happy doesn't mean you aren't spending it right.

collyw 12y ago

I was happiest 15 years ago working as a raft guide and traveling the world. I had very little money then, but I was very happy. I got to do what I loved every day. I usually made two large purchases per year (the opposite of what this article suggests) - a kayak and a return ticket to my next destination. I now sit in front of a computer. Earn OK money but not enough to retire on anytime soon (I am in Spain just now, money isn't great here). I guess I make lots more smaller purchases than I did in the old days (though they are usually far less meaningful to me than the large purchases I made back then). I was definitely happier back then.

mparlane 12y ago
Your old life reminded me of the Mexican fisherman story :) http://bemorewithless.com/the-story-of-the-mexican-fisherman/ http://bemorewithless.com/the-story-of-the-mexican-fisherman...
- verroq 12y ago
  The difference is that you have to fish everyday, or you starve and you can't "play with your kids, take siestas with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos" any more. Where as in the 15 years later version, you don't need to fish at all.
  - markyc 12y ago
    if he loves to fish that shouldn't be a problem though, thus giving him 15 extra years of peaceful life i know, he could get injured and not be able to fish, but on that note, in 15 years he could find out he has cancer and not be able to enjoy his money
    - icebraining 12y ago
      His kids would, though.
      - markyc 12y ago
        they may prefer 15 years of quality time with dad to a load of cash PS: I'd love to hear some arguments on this, not just simple downvotes. Is HN turning into a place like: "you don't think like me, so I'm downvoting you and moving along"?
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        thelogos 12y ago
        If you've ever fished for a living, the argument seems ludicrous. Fishing can be treacherous work. You might get rich with a big haul or die when the whether turns bad. There are many factors, enviromental pollution, ecosystem changing, etc. It's not unusual for these small local fishermen to have very very bad years. And it's not just small outfits that hit tough times, do some research on the tuna industry and decline in tuna population. Reality doesn't always go along with our cozy zen story. We haven't even mentioned the fact that turning your hobby into a job is quite often a very bad idea.
        smileysteve 12y ago
        In the case of the story of the fisherman in Mexico, he is not going on big hauls that pay big bucks. He is in a small one man boat in a bay. He is not catching thousands of pounds of fish, he is catching 2-5 fish a day.
- thisjepisje 12y ago
  Sounds like a rewrite of this 1963 German story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anekdote_zur_Senkung_der_Arbeitsmoral http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anekdote_zur_Senkung_der_Arbeit... Well worth reading if you speak German: http://www.aloj.us.es/webdeutsch/s_3/transkriptionen/l_26_str10_trans.pdf http://www.aloj.us.es/webdeutsch/s_3/transkriptionen/l_26_st...
aangjie 12y ago
It's probably true to the extent that buying small pleasures vs large pleasures works in this case. However there's another factor they mention, "Buy experiences not things". This was fulfilled for you simply by doing the raft guide and travelling without spending money for it. It's also arguable raft guide means helping others ,but not necessary to explain why you were happier in the old day.s
- coldtea 12y ago
  The problem is that when you "buy" the experience, the experience becomes a "thing". An experience is either something genuine or a product. A product is a thing, and money changes a lot of it's attributes.
  - emotionalcode 12y ago
    Getting ripped to shreds by a lion can be a genuine experience, but that doesn't mean I desire it. If you enjoy something you can buy with money, there is likewise no need to taint the experience bleak simply because it was money that enabled you to experience it. I have no doubt that money changes the attributes of a thing sometimes, but so can any other attribute, including the way you collectively simplify a set of attributes and make a comparison to an ideal.
    - Retric 12y ago
      Experience: A wonderful night dancing with a beautiful woman. Now add and subtract money and it's a very different experience even if everything else stayed the same. Compare walking down to the beach on a Friday afternoon after work and taking a week vacation to fly to that same beach and spending your last Friday evening walking around.
      - emotionalcode 12y ago
        Experience: being a woman people have call beautiful; experiencing wondering whether I am persistently being evaluated on a superficial characteristic. We all can draw abstract lines in the sand and overgeneralize to have opinions and make points. It doesn't mean it tells the entire story, nor does it mean it's correct forever.
emotionalcode 12y ago
I can't tell if I'm happier now. When I was a grad student I was always stressed over money, and my health was very bad (this is atypical, I should have been on more responsible about my health rather than dismissing it to promising to see the doctor after the next deadline). I have to work harder to learn new things, and I don't have access to a community that is intrinsically connected to the computer science research community. My health is better now, and I can depend on myself to provide for myself, but sometimes it does just feel like there's a hole that money can't fill. I often feel like I have to continually keep my mind focused on not giving up on higher education or the act of responsibly confusing myself with too much study, just because I happen to be good at software development in a different regard. The ability to be totally lost in a class way beyond the depth I saw myself capable of surmounting was a luxury I took seriously for granted.
CmonDev 12y ago
Salary is not money. Money is when your "work" is choosing where to invest.
personlurking 12y ago
I suppose this must resonate with you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syJXrbWU1Aw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syJXrbWU1Aw It does with me, though the being alone part might bother me after a bit, despite traveling on my own most of my life.
JoeAltmaier 12y ago
We were all happier in our youth. Not a lot to do with money or position; had to do with being in your 20's?
- tormeh 12y ago
  My parents tell me they're way happier now, in their 50s, than they were in their 20s. I'm in 25 now and I'm not feeling that good. It's become all right, but I wouldn't want it to get worse, that's for sure.
  - tonyedgecombe 12y ago
    My experience has been the same, I'm much happier in middle age than I was earlier in life.
- Daishiman 12y ago
  If you're not getting progressively happier with your life under fairly normal circumstances, you're doing it wrong. Seriously; unless there is something that has fucked your life so badly, you should have been spending your time thinking, reflecting and experiencing what makes your happy and more satisfied, and trying to pierce through the bullshit of society's expectations versus your own needs and wants. No one is exempt from the tragedies of life, but there's not excuse for not being mindful of what enriches your soul.
thorin 12y ago
What rivers did you guide on? I've traveled a lot independently kayaking in between work and it was a lot of fun...
- collyw 12y ago
  Worked in Austria, Inn, Oetz, Sanna, Mexico on the Copalita and Chile on the Petrohoue. Chile is a superb destination for whitewater, I spent the start and end of the season kayaking in different areas.
lmm 12y ago
If you were happier back then, why don't you go back to doing that?
- collyw 12y ago
  I am tempted, but its not a lot of money to save for a retirement. Plus, its pretty hard on your body.

k__ 12y ago

A year ago I stopped spending my money on "things" and start spending it on free time. My life is much better now.

custardcream 12y ago
I have a similar approach albeit a different manifestation I suspect: I try to avoid accumulating money as compensation of my time. If I'm not being paid, I'm not working so I tend to work what I need to. If I am being paid, I'm making sure it's as much as I can get to avoid having to get more.
balou 12y ago
This is indeed so true; yet money doesn't buy time. Unless you are in your dream location there's always inherent costs to visiting relatives / friends, match their schedule, or simply go wherever you feel good. So you end-up with a double need for money ;) Still ... I fully agree!
- k__ 12y ago
  Problem is, I have to pay for rent, food and health care. So every day I work is a future day I don't have to work.
- Tepix 12y ago
  In some degree, it does. If you have more money than you need, you can opt to work less hours (not everyone can, but in Germany for example most people have that option).

ggreer 12y ago

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3922794 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3922794 I'm guessing this was submitted because I linked to it in a comment.[1] 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8581524 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8581524

dschiptsov 12y ago

“Money doesn’t just buy you a better life — better food, better cars, better pussy — it also makes you a better person. You can give generously to the church of your choice or the political party. You can save the fucking spotted owl with money.” I know, I know.)

xacbas 12y ago

Summary: http://www.forbes.com/sites/tombarlow/2011/06/15/how-to-buy-happiness-with-money/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/tombarlow/2011/06/15/how-to-buy-...

bane 12y ago

Money may not buy happiness, but it's strange how often it's a factor in things that make you unhappy. The unhappiest I've ever been was during a difficult period with my family. Money was definitely involved, and the center of much of the issue, but it was the troubles in the relationship with people close to me that made me unhappy. If money had never been an issue, I never would have had either trouble and things would be different today. The money part of the situation was trivially resolvable, but the relationship one has lingered for the better part of two decades and looks like it'll never find a satisfactory conclusion.

Cthulhu_ 12y ago
"Money doesn't buy happiness" is something said by either the very rich - who don't have to worry about money - or the very poor - to avoid getting even more unhappy about their situation. Having trouble paying the bills will cause stress, stress causes relational issues and whatnot. Money doesn't buy happiness, but it does help with the basics of life. Which is why a minimum wage and by extension liveable income if you're unable to work should be a basic human right. That, or a similar form of supplying basic human needs - housing, food, water, clothing, privacy, access to information, hygene, etc.
- vidarh 12y ago
  "Money doesn't buy happiness" is largely demonstrably true for most people in their current situations. The available research does not back up any large correlation - causative or not - between happiness and wealth outside of very extreme situations: If you starve, or lack shelter, money unambiguously increases average happiness substantially. Once you are fed and have somewhere to live - even if crappy - peoples happiness are minimally affected by additional money. There are ways which you can leverage more money to increase your happiness, but interestingly the best approaches involve living below your means, no matter how much or little you have: The most efficient way of leveraging wealth into happiness is to ensure that you build a buffer so that you can maintain a slow, steady upwards trajectory as much as possible.
  - 12y ago

amelius 12y ago

“While money can't buy happiness, it certainly lets you choose your own form of misery.” ― Groucho Marx

netcan 12y ago

There are all sorts of complexities here that's difficult to capture in sweeping statements, statistics, principles or studies. Money (problems) are the source of lots of unhappiness. Stress and its consequences. Failing to make ends meet is stressful and unhappy. While being a broke and careless 26 year old in love might be fun, in most circumstances being broke sucks. Choosing between a dentist or ballet class for your 5 year old is not pleasant. There are noncausational correlations between making money and happiness. To a large extent, having money is one big example of successfully functioning in our society. It's therefore probably correlated with all sorts of other types of functioning. Making money is often succeeding at controlling your life. It's similar to other successes at controlling one's life (deliberately and successfully choosing a career or family life). These are related to happiness. Feeling successful is pleasant in itself. Most of us work most of our lives. Money is the main reason. Not making much money is (with many exceptions) failing to make more money, failure is unpleasant. My Shtick recently is attempting to be deliberate. There's a lot of romanticism around serendipity, less so about deliberate action. They're not really competitive, but they often feel like they are. In any case, spending your money in a more happiness generating way is being deliberate about being happy. It extends past money. Be deliberate about spending your time, your effort and anything else you spend on happiness and you will probably be more happy.

vidarh 12y ago
Money are the source of lots of unhappiness, but as they point out: We adapt. The research does not support that "being broke sucks". The research supports that starving and being homeless sucks. The moment you are not starving, and have shelter, peoples happiness level is on average almost as high as the happiness level of a rich person. > Feeling successful is pleasant in itself. It may be, but as we adapt to having little money and success, so do we adapt to having lots of money and lots of success. It does not bring substantial added happiness other than shortly after we achieve it. Being given a raise, or promotion, or public praise gives us happiness, but that happiness fades very quickly. Similarly, not making much money, or failing, is unpleasant but the unhappiness it causes is very much temporary unless you keep doing worse. Avoiding adaption to an improved situation, and ensuring adaption to a worse situation is key to maximising happiness. You are best served by a slow, steady "drip" of improvement than suddenly achieving wealth, fame or success for example. Conversely, if you need to make cuts, you are far better off cutting your expenditure further than necessary, get used to it, and slowly see things improving, than you are making small cuts with the risk of having to cut back further. Apart from relative effects on adapation, money overall has very little direct impact on happiness other than at the extremes: If you starve; if you're homeless; if you lack access to mental health services; if you lack access to health services that can prevent or slow a degenerative condition (pretty much any catastrophic health change is subject to adaptation as long as the change is over quickly - e.g. amputees are as happy as most people relatively soon afterwards - but conditions that slowly become worse avoids adaptation). (See Jonathan Haidt's "The Happiness Hypothesis" for more on this, and a decent chunk of references)

michokest 12y ago

Last year I sold some stock from my last startup, a little over $1m after taxes, and I can say it's definitely changed things for the better. In this period of time, I have been able to: - Quit my founder position at that startup (thus avoiding potentially being tied to vesting or retention clauses, in case of an acquisition) - Own my house, and invest in a few other apartments, which turned into a little side business with great margins - Start a new company investing my own money, and not requiring a salary - Travel and live in a few different cities as I build the new startup - Completely forget about the price tag when buying small-ticket things: a taxi ride, asking for an extra plate, an occasional flight, paying a round of drinks It's not as it money made me happy by spending it, but it did remove a lot of the constraints I had before. It's made me feel like the default state would be to be carefree and happy, and as long as you can keep the worries and the stress away, everything will go alright. As a new worry, I now spend a lot of time thinking about how to reinvest it wisely and continue living like this. It's not overwhelming, and it's not very different than what doing my finances felt like before, but doing it a larger scale adds a new dimension to it.

nathanvanfleet 12y ago
I have often thought about how much happier I would be if I had enough money to not really balk paying for a mid-level sushi restaurant every week or so. Though ultimately I'm not sure how much more money I'd have to make before having that comfort. It would be nice though.
- clavalle 12y ago
  It is interesting. 99% of the time you don't even think about it, or write it off with half a thought as you are busy and want to eat healthy, quality food but occasionally it occurs to you "You know, I don't even have to think about this." and remember a time when you did. Progress is a great feeling.
nathanvanfleet 12y ago
I have often thought about how much happier I would be if I had enough money to not really balk paying for a mid-level sushi restaurant every week or so. Though ultimately I'm not sure how much more money I'd have to make before having that comfort. It would be nice though.

tempodox 12y ago

Yep, I always knew it's entirely my own fault that I'm not happy. I just have to get better at spending money. Why didn't I think of that myself. I'll get out now and find myself a coach that will teach me all the tricks I need to know. After all if you can buy everything, why not the knowledge on how to get happy spending money? It's so easy once you look at it the right way!

unknownBits 12y ago

Money is the most tricky thing men will ever face. Not talking about extreme poverty here, the following is what I've learned: More money leads in almost all people to artificial value, short term superficial happiness, degradation of the soul. On the outside it looks great and shiny, but on the inside the soul starves and craves true happiness. Unfortunately, most rich people react unconsciously by spending more and more, in a desperate effort to fill the ever growing gap. Longer term less money creates in almost all people higher valuation of the most simple and basic things, which translates to true happiness for the soul. Less money can restore happiness if people are willing. But there is of course a lot more affected by the money in our lives, especially the ego. A rich men easily thinks he is really someone, a 'great' man, special, gifted, etc.. The poor man will most often struggle with the opposite thoughts and feelings, while in the end it's all false. If I ever again have quite some money to spend, I'll be very vigilant, you'll see me desperately trying to hold myself back. Never trade your soul for money (or power) is my advice. And if you have a lot of it, use a substantial part to help poor children for example, give them food, education, that will create you some ever lasting happiness, at least, if you can hold yourself back from growing your ego on that.

agumonkey 12y ago
I can feel this in other domains too: relationships (short term, hormonal, struggle-free), knowledge (web era, ease of access, no deep integration, no effort into reaching, organizing, interpreting). There's a subtle paradox in ourselves for we crave easiness when I believe what we need is to learn how to abstract over complexity.
clavalle 12y ago
>More money leads in almost all people to artificial value, short term superficial happiness, degradation of the soul. I could not disagree more. In the vast majority of cases, money leads to less misery. Then you just lead your life without the obsessive material thoughts so many struggle with. I do agree with your last point, though, that once you reach a certain level of stability, you should focus on either reducing other people's misery if you have the power to do so or creating things (either yourself or by proxy) that wouldn't exist in the world without your help.

duwip 12y ago

Related TED talk for those interested: http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_norton_how_to_buy_happiness http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_norton_how_to_buy_happiness

ElectricMonk79 12y ago

"Principle 1: Buy experiences instead of things" Figure 1 - highest on the happiness index is "making love" I see what you're saying. ;)

arielweisberg 12y ago

I poor all the money I can into my future self. That actually does make me happy. I don't see lifestyle inflation as a good idea especially for young people.

mcdougle 12y ago
Me too. I figure, if I can get some shit done in my 20s, I can have a pretty sweet time in my 30s, running a small company and spending time with my future family rather than working an unfulfilling 9 to 5 and trying to make up for it by partying hard on the weekends.

gexla 12y ago

Try living in a medium size city in the Philippines. There are neighborhood stores here all over the place and they don't charge much more than you would have to pay by buying in bulk at a larger store. When I'm not shopping at a neighborhood store, I go to the local market. Each of these places are very bland. Basically just a bamboo or concrete house with the products hanging or stacked up in shelves. Often you just order through a barred window and they give you what you ask for. After shopping like this for months, walking into a regular grocery store is an assault on the senses. Packaging, marketing and colors everywhere. Things at the smaller stores are also really cheap because the locals have to be able to afford them. At the larger grocery stores I'm floored by the prices of everything. I avoid grocery stores as much as possible. The selection of products here is slim. I can spend all day looking around different stores and not find one thing on my wishlist. Otherwise I find nothing interesting. Many products are cheap and low quality because expensive items don't sell. I'm happy living here and I have the things I really need. Happy + have everything I really need + have money + nothing to spend money on = abundance of sorts. I don't know if I feel rich, but it's strange feeling like money doesn't really do me much good. Daily expenses are super cheap. I only have going out to eat to spend money on. My favorite meals only cost $1 - $3. When everything is cheap, an expensive meal seems excessive. Further screwing with me is that I can help out with simple tech stuff at these restaurants and I can eat for free. Business owners here don't know how to use things like Facebook, which is basically the internet for the Philippines. It's not really worth my time, but I like to help. There goes my main expense outside of rent and utilities.

hawkice 12y ago
Indeed. It's somewhat durable, too -- while I certainly experience a lot more luxury since I left Davao, I'm no longer comfortable with even LA-without-a-car level extravagance being treated lightly. I think it's worth pointing out the mirror of your thoughts (which are completely correct -- if you haven't had cheap and simple options, there is a deep luxury to it): If you're going to buy nice things -- which are the only options in America, truly -- enjoy them. Food and housing seem so obvious to me. Like, you can get a chicken sandwich here, and eat something that is recognizably made of chicken (you can in the Philippines too, it's just that's more fancy than normal). I guess it never struck me how much of a luxury even the low-end of American foodstuffs are. And I can get an apartment near Detroit that (1) can be air-conditioned to exactly the temperature I want, and not just a tolerable temperature, and (2) is, well... nice. Not falling apart, no holes in walls or things, consistent electricity, internet speeds exceeding 100kb/s (often by 30x). Now, I don't need all this luxury, but man, the modest increase in expenses (maybe 2x? I live pretty cheap in America) definitely increases quality of life. If it didn't, I would probably not live here.

arscan 12y ago

These 2 put out a book on the subject as well. It's worth a read if you found this paper helpful. http://books.simonandschuster.com/Happy-Money/Elizabeth-Dunn/9781451665079 http://books.simonandschuster.com/Happy-Money/Elizabeth-Dunn...

pit 12y ago

Ah, yes. "If you can't spend dough, what [are] you hustlin' for?"

ericdykstra 12y ago

The generalizations in this paper based on cherry-picked studies aren't very convincing. How people react in contrived situations, and how people live their life are quite a bit different. The word "suggest" appears 17 times in this article, where the author extrapolates from the findings of a single research experiment. It reads more like an opinion piece than anything scientific, and I'm certainly not going to change my habits from what's written in it.

paulhauggis 12y ago

Money sure makes me happy. I hate working for other people and my profiyltable business has allowed me to continue to work for myself.

gchokov 12y ago

<sarcasm>What an actual topic for hacker news community! I bet this topic will go to top 3!</sarcasm>

rasengan 12y ago

Coming from the hood, I wanted to say that I could not disagree with this article more. Life is fair. Just like the late poet said, "More money, more problems." Life always finds a way of balancing itself out.

SnacksOnAPlane 12y ago
People who say "life is fair" are usually the ones who have an easy life. It's a way to blame people for their problems.
- zo1 12y ago
  "It's a way to blame people for their problems." Why does blame have to be part of it? Or are you saying that people who use that phrase are implying that people are to blame for what problems they have because life itself is fair?
  - SnacksOnAPlane 12y ago
    Yeah, I'm saying that people who say "life is fair" usually haven't had horrible problems like birth defects or having their house burn down. It's also a way for people who have had incredibly good luck to rationalize why they have it so easy while other people struggle.
    - rasengan 12y ago
      I'll share my story with the world soon. My life wasn't easy at all, and unfortunately, it still isn't. However, I'm working as hard as I can.

Jun8 12y ago

Somerset Maugham has a nice quote in Of Human Bondage: "Money is like a sixth sense without which you cannot make a complete use of the other five." Although he does have a point I don't quite agree with that POV. What I think money should be viewed as (we're talking about a good amount of money here, let's say 2-3x your living expenses) a super power. Like all super powers it can be used for good or evil (or, more probably, wasted). You can do a lot of good with a relatively small amount of money. You really cannot do this or think about such things if you don't know where your next lunch is coming from or if you will be able to afford to send your kids to college.

novalis78 12y ago

One of the greatest books IMHO which gives very practical advice how to achieve and maintain happiness in life is Raymond Hull's old classic (1969) "How to get what you want". Interestingly enough (and although written by a Canadian) it is quite well known in Europe, not so much in the US: http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/how-to-get-what-you-want-raymond-hull/1001022338?ean=2940150528680 http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/how-to-get-what-you-want-ray... the comment section on amazon is interesting to read as well: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0671783270/ http://www.amazon.com/dp/0671783270/

softdev12 12y ago

For anyone who is interested in a shorter version of this journal article, Wall Street Journal reporter Andrew Blackman posted an article today titled "Can Money Buy Happiness? Here's What the Science Says." It's behind a paywall, which is why the harvard journal article is listed here (I'm assuming). But if you have a subscription, the link is at http://online.wsj.com/articles/can-money-buy-happiness-heres-what-science-has-to-say-1415569538 http://online.wsj.com/articles/can-money-buy-happiness-heres... The main points seem to be: 1) at the margin, it's better to spend money on fleeting experiences over material goods 2) money buys happiness up to a point (i.e. $75K per year, then there's diminishing returns) 3) don't get into debt or you're in for sadness

themagician 12y ago

I used to have money. When I got divorced I decided I would let my wife have it all. It was mostly hers to begin with, so it wasn't some great act of generosity. She walked away with somewhere around $2MM in liquidity. I walked away with about $10,000. It's really made very little difference. Money makes some things easier, but I wouldn't associate that with happy. They are two separate things. There was a time when I thought money would make me happy, and I think there was a time where maybe it did, but there was a realization that my "happiness" wasn't my own. I don't even know if that makes sense to anyone but me, but that's the only way I can articulate it. I was happy because I thought I should be happy with all the stuff and "freedom", but at the end of the day I didn't really care about those things. Now I'm in this place, this awkward state, where money can't buy any of the things I want. It's a confusing place to be because the world doesn't really operate that way. I wish money made me happy. That would make everything much easier.

ryusage 12y ago
I saw a good TED talk[1] a while ago about this topic, and the speaker made the interesting point that people use the word happiness to mean different things. You can ask someone how happy they are feeling at a given moment, or you can ask them how happy they are with their life in general. And we evaluate those two feelings in very different ways. He mentions at one point that studies about how people feel in the moment were very correlated with money, but only up to the point that they didn't need to worry about it anymore. After that, it had little bearing on their experiential happiness. But when asked how happy they were with their lives, the more money, the better, with no limit. Which seems to me more like pride in an achievement. I wonder if the happiness that wasn't "your own" was because part of you was happy when you thought about where you were in life, but you were also aware it wasn't really improving your day-to-day experience. Kind of a cognitive dissonance between the two ways you were evaluating your happiness. I don't know, you think that's even close? [1] http://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_kahneman_the_riddle_of_experience_vs_memory http://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_kahneman_the_riddle_of_exper...
- themagician 12y ago
  That's somewhat accurate. I'd not seen this TED talk either, so thanks. The day-to-day didn't really change above a certain income, and that income limit (at least for me) was pretty low. Even living in both Manhattan and San Francisco where things are expensive. All the things I enjoy aren't really that expensive. You don't need millions of dollars to read a book, watch a movie, listen to an album, or have sex. These things are only very marginally improved above let's say, the $75K mark. You don't even need millions of dollars to go out to eat every night. Money can give you more discretionary time. But that free time can't be spent in any way (at least none that I found) that feels rewarding while everyone else you know or care about is at work. You are still bound to rest of the world. I think that's what I like about more European, or day I say socialist, lifestyles. I need other people to spend time with. I've found hanging out with extremely wealthy people who don't do anything to be extremely boring and almost uncomfortable. If I woke up tomorrow and suddenly had $10 million I'm not sure I'd be any happier. I'd go out and buy some new clothes I guess, a bigger apartment maybe. I'd still wake up in the morning and turn on the radio to listen to NPR. I'd still eat the same yogurt, same strawberries. People start to do silly things with money I don't understand. Giant TVs they don't know how to work, fancy cars they never drive. Or buy some house with rooms that sit empty. I'm just like, why? Why would you do that? When people say these things make them "happy" I wonder if we actually feel completely different emotions.

ToastyMallows 12y ago

In this thread: Generalizations

toblender 12y ago

This reminds me of a great story: http://totalfratmove.com/guy-goes-to-mexico-to-kill-himself-spends-week-doing-coke-and-banging-hookers-decides-to-keep-living/ http://totalfratmove.com/guy-goes-to-mexico-to-kill-himself-... There are no NSFW pictures just a text...

toblender 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

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kstenerud 12y ago

While I can see how principles 7 and 8 could help most people, they wouldn't work for me. Every purchase of an item I intended to use long term (2 years or more) was preceded by anywhere from days to weeks of research, reviews, and comparison shopping. It's a huge brain drain, but it was worth it. I now have 98% of all possessions I'd want, with the remaining 2% having not reached the right opportunity yet (I'm also quite frugal). More importantly, I did not follow the herd. I found that an overall rating is a good rough indicator (thus saving many hours of work on my part), but you still need to look into individual reviews, because not everyone has the same tastes or standards or needs or use cases as you. I now have a comfortable place, possessions that are built to last, and very few wants that would require more money to satisfy. So has money bought me happiness? I believe a better way to phrase it would be to say that money is no longer a barrier to my happiness.

claytonjy 12y ago
Because you seem content with this path, may I ask how old you are, or at least how long you've been on this path? I'm also curious to hear examples of the 2% you mention. I'm young but I try to have this same approach of taking the time to buy nice things which will last (furniture, kitchenware, camping gear), and tend to be a bit obsessive about ratings + reviews. I sometimes wonder if this is the "right" approach or if I would be happier buying cheaper crap and spending less time doing it. I do find strong intrinsic value when I'm confident I bought the thing which best fits my needs after doing hours/days of research.
- Daishiman 12y ago
  Believe me, having durable goods is one of the few material things that have brought me lasting happiness (or at least made me avoid chronic unhappiness). It really depends on the class of goods. I enjoy high-quality audio, so I made the effort to do some research and spent decent money on a good sound card and two high-end headphones. End of story; it's unlikely that I'll need a replacement for those things for a decade. Thankfully there are tons of good products in the area and it makes little sense to sweat it once you're found a dozen good choices. As far as furniture goes; it really depends on how obsessive you are on design and interior decoration. There's a healthy compromise to strike between utility, cost, and aesthetics, and my experience is that once you have a solid idea for your interior decoration (which is not easy, mind you) you're probably good to go; minor blemished and defects should not detract from your satisfaction. In kitchenware, solid and cheap is a good combination. Apart from knives, the most important thing is build quality, but a cheap cast-iron pan is good as long as you're not burning stuff.

Chinjut 12y ago

Everything else being equal, of course I'd be happier to have more money. But all things aren't equal, and many of the things one is supposed to spend one's time on in order to make maximal money are things I am unhappy spending my time on. (That having been said, the article is about getting the best happiness bang from whatever bucks you do have, which I have no argument with. I suppose I'm just saying, in many cases, the optimal happiness I could purchase with some money stream is the free time "purchased" by not working for it in the first place.)

pehtis 12y ago

Money works like RAM: More RAM than the running processes require will not make your computer any faster, but if you run out of RAM it will make it slower.

AndyNemmity 12y ago
That's a really interesting way to look at it. I think you're right, thanks for including that piece of insight. To continue - Having more RAM also makes you more likely to run programs you don't need, or don't care about. Limiting the RAM left available for the applications you do. It's easier to kill processes though than drains on your income.
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  How do you know what programs you need to run? Why would we think all the good ones are low-RAM? I'd need to see a profile of apps and RAM to even begin to conclude anything. Either the analogy isn't working, or more money (or RAM) has a good chance of letting me do more things that I value. I think the 2nd.
  - Daishiman 12y ago
    > How do you know what programs you need to run? Why would we think all the good ones are low-RAM? I'd need to see a profile of apps and RAM to even begin to conclude anything. Wisdom, aging, getting to know yourself. I sure love a $300 meal, but eating out 5 times a week isn't going to make me any happier than going to that place once a month and cooking on my own the rest of the time; maybe ordering a cheap dish at my favorite Chinese place. If you enjoy looking good and your wardrobe already has everything you could reasonably wear on a day-to-day basis and some special events, the chances that an additional piece of clothing will make a marked difference on your happiness is extremely low. If you have sex with your lover as much as you could possibly want, more sex will not increase your quality of life; most likely it will be a negative. There's a point where we just saturate on the hedonistic aspects of life, even the ones with supposed higher purposes.

dalacv 12y ago

The happiest people I've ever met were those who had just enough money / education to be comfortable but just little enough to not know any better.