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Countries are still paying off debt from World War 1
- carsongross 12y agoAh, that's nothing. The brits still haven't paid off the loan some guy named William III took out in the 1690's. Shirkers.
- lotsofmangos 12y agoThe people from the bank do visit, but Liz set the corgis on them last time while Philip waved a shotgun around and shouted something rather rude, so they are leaving it another decade or two before they try again.
- EliRivers 12y agoOn a related note, shells fired during WWI are still killing people today. Hell of a thing, to fire a weapon and kill someone a hundred years later. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26654314 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26654314
- Alupis 12y agoNot terribly uncommon. Landmines and the like are still scattered all around many parts of the planet. And, just a few years ago near where I live in CA, a train exploded due to long buried WW2 munitions (a train had derailed at some point in a rainstorm and a great number of warheads got buried in the mud).
- monksy 12y agoThis is a fairly common thing. Parts of Tegal airport were dug up recently to detonate unexploded ordinance, its found fairly frequently in Germany.
- smacktoward 12y agoIt happens in the US too, occasionally. The campus of my alma mater, along with a good chunk of the surrounding neighborhood, was taken over by the U.S. Army during both World Wars and used as an artillery range and, during World War I, a chemical weapons development center. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_American_University http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_American_University) As a result, even up to the mid-1990s, when I was there, it was not unusual to see a block or two closed off periodically because someone digging had found unexploded ordnance there. And due to the chemical weapons work, these discoveries were more disconcerting than usual, because who knew if it was just a standard high-explosive shell or something loaded with mustard gas, or worse?
- patio11 12y agoThe most recent casualty of the U.S. Civil War lived to see Obama voted into office. He is unlikely to be the last. UXO is a hell of a thing.
- cbd1984 12y agoThe last Civil War veteran died in 1956; the last to have seen combat died in 1953. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Woolson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Woolson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hard And the last Revolutionary War veteran died in 1866. (The year after our Civil War ended, in case you don't know much American history.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemuel_Cook http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemuel_Cook
- Figs 12y agoThey're talking about unexploded ordnance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unexploded_ordinance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unexploded_ordinance I don't know if there's a more recent example of Civil War UXO causing injuries, but here's a news article about a man killed in February 2008: http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/05/02/virginia-man-killed-in-civil-war-cannonball-blast/ http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/05/02/virginia-man-killed-...
- cbd1984 12y agoBecause someone hid my last comment by mistake: The last Civil War veteran died in 1956; the last to have seen combat died in 1953. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Woolson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Woolson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hard And the last Revolutionary War veteran died in 1866. (The year after our Civil War ended, in case you don't know much American history.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemuel_Cook http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemuel_Cook
- parados 12y agoAnd WWII aerial photographs are still used to find unexploded weapons: http://ncap.org.uk/case-studies/explosive-ordnance-disposal http://ncap.org.uk/case-studies/explosive-ordnance-disposal Quite something to take a photograph 70 years ago that saves a life today.
- justincormack 12y agoGovernments have rarelybpaid down debt in absolute terms (there are exceptions eg Australia at one point). Generally it shrinks as a percentage if GDP at best. If nominal GDP ever stops growing it will never be paid off. Hence 2% inflation targets...
- seanmcdirmid 12y agoTaking on debt is also necessary for a functioning financial system with the US gov playing an important role as global debtor of last resort. Money has no intrinsic value, and the only way to save it is for someone else to borrow and spend it! Inflation is basically a tax on savings, which is not that bad when you consider again that money has no value. A low inflation rate then creates subtle pressure for people to invest money productively (or just spend it) as they lose out if they just hide it under their mattress. A high inflationary rate is not good, of course, as you basically can't save at all, while deflation is also bad because it rewards saving and causes value to evaporate (since money has no intrinsic value, things produced have to be bought and used...).
- icelancer 12y agoThis is a very Keynesian way to look at things that isn't necessarily absolutely true. There are a lot of times when this ideal of "slight inflation" is detrimental given the actual output of said policies.
- seanmcdirmid 12y agoFor example, when? There are very fundamental truths here; e.g. consumption has to match production with very few exceptions, no matter how much someone has to save (or can't spend according to what they are earning). You might be able to save for a rainy day (or retirement), but it is impossible for the world to do that (instead, they must invest for the future to prepare for that rainy day). I'm not sure you could find a single serious economist who would claim "slight inflation is bad;" i.e. would argue that 2-3% is worse than 0%. Maybe a libertarian, but there is a good reason we never vote them into power.
- spitfire 12y agoI recall a bond from the 1700's in London that isn't being paid off. It had a structure that made it better to simply pay the interest rather than pay out the full bond. Looking it up, I think it was probably a british Consul. A type of perpetual bond. Which in the case, you have very little reason to redeem it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consol_(bond) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consol_(bond)
- walshemj 12y agoUntil fairly recently before QE the 4% consol was well under par around 70 and so would have been costly to redeem. I looked at buying some of the consols for my ISA last month - its one of the few ways of getting a safe investment that pays more than inflation.
- justincormack 12y agoThe 4% Consol is the one being redeemed. Not entirely clear why - they could buy it back cheaper in the market than paying par.
- walshemj 12y agoI know I was vaguely looked at the 4% consuls as investment before the crash they where selling for around 60/70 in 2008
- jmnicolas 12y agoWars would be over sooner if it wasn't for debt.
- zw123456 12y agoOne could argue that the true cost of war can never be repaid.
- tedunangst 12y agoIt was only 100 years ago. Countries are still issuing 100 year bonds today. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-12/mexico-said-to-sell-benchmark-100-year-bond-in-british-pounds.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-12/mexico-said-to-sell...
- whiddershins 12y agono better read than "Debt, the first 5,000 years" to realize you can't possibly be cynical enough about the nature of debt. http://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years-ebook/dp/B00513DGIO/ http://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years-ebook/dp/B00513...
- sdm 12y agoFrom the Amazon description: > He also brilliantly demonstrates that the language of the ancient works of law and religion (words like “guilt,” “sin,” and “redemption”) derive in large part from ancient debates about debt, and shape even our most basic ideas of right and wrong. Did he just rewrite Nietzsche's "Genealogy of Morals"?
- wnevets 12y ago>So the solution to this was brokered by the future US vice-president Charles Dawe, who in 1924 proposed that the US lend money to Germany to fund its reparation payments to France and the UK, who in turn would use the money to repay their war debts. The solution was so good that Dawes won the Nobel Peace Prize the next year in recognition. And the plan worked. Wow.
- Spooky23 12y agoHere's an example of 19th century debt in NYC http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/nyregion/13jerome.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/nyregion/13jerome.html?pag...
- cperciva 12y agoMisleading. The debts in question could have been paid off years ago if anyone had wanted to, but they were at such low rates of interest that it was better to pay off more recent debts instead.
- mtmail 12y agoTrue. In 1990 Germany had €125 million debt outstanding. Easy to pay off if they wanted. Instead a new contract was signed with 20 annual installments.
- brazzy 12y agoAnd note that those 125 million were only outstanding because their payment had been frozen while the country was divided. Someone made a HUGE profit on what were fore decades essentially super-junk bonds.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- jaekwon 12y agoHow is that misleading? That's typically how one fails to pay their debts -- by priority.
- loupeabody 12y agoI suppose there's a suggestion that due to some horrible infrastructure or mismanagement they've been left unpaid. As in, the nature of national debts and the these countries deal with debt is irresponsible or unfair or impractical or all three at once. Or that the scale of the war can be appraised form its cost to society, just as a matter of perspective. The reality it seems, is much more mundane, as you point out. That suggestion though, is what maybe the piece is suggesting by its headline. That kind of controversial commentary is why I'd clicked on it to begin with, but if I'd known that it was just being literal about the topic, it wouldn't be nearly as appealing. Still, it's kind of crazy that these old debts are still lingering around. Just in a broader, historical sense.
- gamechangr 12y agoGermany makes it's last World War 1 payment 2010 http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/legacy-of-versailles-germany-closes-book-on-world-war-i-with-final-reparations-payment-a-720156.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/legacy-of-versai...
- chiaro 12y agoA quote from an econ professor: "Economists hate war because it's the equivalent of taking your economy out the back and shooting it"
- bsitum 12y agowow
- michaelchisari 12y agoEven worse than that, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti France demanded that Haiti pay the modern equivalent of $21 billion in debt for the "loss of men and slave colony".
- frik 12y agoThe country next to Germany, Austria, has to pay to both the allied forces and soviets (russia) for WW 1 & WW 2: much of the former land mass that formed Austria (it's now tiny), a lot of money, gold, natural ressources (like rare earth and food to the soviets) and as usual after wars they captured and removed all valuable technology. The allied bombed many cities and railway stations and 10% didn't exploded and many are still in the ground (the chemical ignotion mechanism is still active and several bombs detonate each year).
- eliben 12y agoIs your comment supposed to make someone feel sorry about a country that helped start wars that led to tens of millions of lost lives and devastated much of the continent for decades?
- ntSean 12y agoAs your comment would suggest, we then _shouldn't_ sympathise with a country because of their history. After all, we can safely assume that everyone in that the country in question is an evil person looking to go start wars.
- tomjen3 12y agoIt would be rather silly to feel sorry for a country, but why not feel sorry for the people living there? After all Hitler was elected in 1933, which means that anybody who was below 30 when the peace was made couldn't be considered guilty, and Hitler only got 30ish percent anyway. Unless you want to go the collective guilt or blood guilt route.
- shangxiao 12y agoTechnicalities about "helping" start either war aside (I'll let someone else more knowledgable in this area argue that), yes I do feel sorry for them, it's just basic human empathy.
- rakoo 12y agoThe country did not start the war, people did. People who are not here anymore. And yet we make the people of today and tomorrow pay for what the people of yesterday did. That's ludicrous.
- dba7dba 12y agoHad it not been for WWI, most of the globe might still be under colonial rules.
- PeterisP 12y agoDidn't the main release of colonial nations happen after WW2? Most of Africa, Palestine/Israel, India/Pakistan/Bangladesh, etc.