6 ms·

A veteran teacher turned coach shadows two students for two days

154 points by MrMrtn 12y ago

Mithaldu 12y ago
> In addition, there was a good deal of sarcasm and snark > directed at students > ... > I realize that sarcasm, impatience, and annoyance are a > way of creating a barrier between me and them. From a european point of view that is something the entire us-american culture embraces and grapples with vigorously, to the detriment of interactions among themselves and with other cultures. It would make sense that this is started and reinforced in school already.
- moron4hire 12y ago
  I think we're very stand-offish people. We tend to not engage in conversation with strangers. I think sarcasm is sort of a way to probe another person for where you stand with them, given a functionally retarded mindset towards personal interactions. You can say something, and if the person laughs, you know they are net-positive towards you, and if they don't, you can apologize and claim you were just being sarcastic.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - learc83 12y ago
    >I think we're very stand-offish people. We tend to not engage in conversation with strangers. I have never heard that from anyone. What culture are you comparing the US to? I've heard the exact opposite from nearly every non-American I've ever discussed this with. If anything they think Americans are too friendly/chatty.
    - moron4hire 12y ago
      Come to DC sometime.
- learc83 12y ago
  >us-american There's no need to ad "us" to "american". While the Americas can refer to the entire new world, the term "American" is wholly unambiguous. When you say American everyone in the world knows to whom you are referring, including all the other people of the Americas.
  - alphydan 12y ago
    Wikipedia doesn't agree with you (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American) American also means > Something of, from, or related to the Americas > Indigenous peoples of the Americas If you had lived in a Latin american country and spoken enough with the locals, you would know that many refer to themselves as "Americans".
    - learc83 12y ago
      If anyone refers to Americans, in English, without qualification, the understanding is that they are referring to Citizens of the U.S. Natural language is inherently ambiguous and you will always find edge cases, but the definition of "American" is as close to completely unambiguous as you're going to get. I also take issue with your assertion that Latin Americans often refer to themselves as "American". I've never met a Latin American who said they were from "America" or were "American". Unless it was someone on an internet forum with a specific agenda. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but I have quite a bit of contact with people from Mexico and Peru, and I've never heard it from them. I'm going to need sources before I believe that term is in common use. Regardless usage dictates the rules of language and in English the common term is "American" not "Usamerican", or "USian".
      - alphydan 12y ago
        I think the confusion may come from the Spanish version of the word. "Americano" and "American" seem to carry different connotations. See: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uso_de_la_palabra_americano http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uso_de_la_palabra_americano or http://hispanismo.org/hispanoamerica/13746-usamerica-y-usamericano.html http://hispanismo.org/hispanoamerica/13746-usamerica-y-usame... for more details. Of course Natural language is ambiguous. It's also evolving and reflects attitudes, values and culture. It seems "American" == "US Citizen" has solidified, although the discussion was still going 60 years ago( http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/486658?uid=3739920&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21104810979837 http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/486658?uid=3739920&uid... ). Our experiences talking to Latin Americans probably differ because of language. I have lived in Latin America, as a native Spanish speaker (which may have made it easier for Latin Americans to communicate their musings on identity, US-centrism and language). The USA uses the name of the continent to name its citizens (As if French said ... "We're Europeans, and the Germans? Bah, they are only German, they can't really call themselves Europeans ... everybody knows that real Europeans are French). In any case, it seems your use of the word is the accepted meaning in English, so I stand corrected. But for your information, this is not the case in Spanish.
- e12e 12y ago
  Pink Floyd would disagree that it's a particularly US centric problem...? We don't need no education We dont need no thought control No dark sarcasm in the classroom Teachers leave them kids alone Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone! All in all it's just another brick in the wall. All in all you're just another brick in the wall. I can't really imagine that French or Italian schools are much better - but I may very well be wrong. And it'snbeen a few years since Pink Floyd was in school, obviously...
Afton 12y ago
The three points from the article: > [1] Students sit all day, and sitting is exhausting. > [2] High School students are sitting passively and listening during approximately 90% of their classes. > [3] You feel a little bit like a nuisance all day long. People wonder why high school aged students are unruly, unpleasant, and filled with deep negative emotions (anger, disdain, need-to-rebel). I look at this list (especially [2] and the lack of autonomy that follows) and the reason seems really clear. The basic model seems broken.
- smoyer 12y ago
  I'm on the board of a small private high-school and I'm going to forward this to the headmaster but ... Sitting all day [1] passively listening to a droning professor [2] and feeling like a nuisance [3] if you don't grasp the material, pay attention and avoid causing disruptions [3] is an important skill for college survival. If we change the curriculum to engage the students more (which I tend to believe will increase their retention of the materials), will we make them less capable of successfully performing 1, 2 & 3 in their college classes?
  - joshdance 12y ago
    Getting teenagers to learn more, engage, take charge of their learning will make the less successful at college? Maybe college needs to change as well. But also, in college you can chose you class and institution. High school you have like 1 elective, you can't really change schools. If your college was like a bad high school, you need to go elsewhere.
  - dangrossman 12y ago
    Was your college experience a lot like high school in that regard? I don't feel like mine was. My schedule never involved 6+ hours of sitting without breaks. Even in semesters with a heavy workload, some of the classes were always labs or very interactive, not just lectures. If classes were back-to-back, they were still often in different buildings, so there was a bit of an exercise break between lectures as opposed to walking down the hall in the same HS building. Virtually all professors were open to questions before/after class or had office hours or a TA with office hours -- asking questions was not seen as being a nuisance. Laptops/phones were allowed in nearly all lectures, which breaks up the monotony of sitting passively even during a lecture.
Periodic 12y ago
I'd like to step back from this from a moment and get a little more abstract and ask if this idea of shadowing applies to software products (or any other business, really). Has anyone really sat down and shadowed one of their users for a whole day? I know small usability studies are pretty common. You get someone in a room, ask them to perform some tasks, see what they do. But if you have an app that people are going to spend their whole day in, e.g. email, office suite, productivity, does anyone really sit down and shadow a user for a day? There might be things you don't notice if you only do it for an hour or two, or is it just not the same when the user isn't required by an authority to be present?
- wglb 12y ago
  I think quicken did this very early in their history. They would look over a new customers shoulder to fine any parts of the product that were hard to use.
- peteretep 12y ago
  Some people would argue that this is the meaning of "dog fooding"
- matwood 12y ago
  One of my first jobs was writing software for call centers. The agents did things like CS, take payments, etc... I frequently went onto the calling floor and sat with the agents to see how they worked. Their bonuses were in part based on speed, so any software I wanted them to use had to not slow them down. They also had to deal with multiple separate programs, so additional software had to get out of the way when not being used. It was a great first job, and I learned a lot about writing usable software.
- jacalata 12y ago
  Absolutely, this is known as user ethnography and has been around for a long time. Here's a random article: http://www.uxmatters.com/mt/archives/2010/06/ethnography-in-ux.php http://www.uxmatters.com/mt/archives/2010/06/ethnography-in-...
keeptrying 12y ago
Whats really amazing is that this experiment would have been a first of its kind in nearly 100s of years. I personally think that our class based education systems are languishing at some 100 year based minima right now w.r.t effectiveness. Present systems don't take into account: 1. Most subjects require different modalities of learning. Teaching computer science via lecture format? seriously? 2. Students have different economic situations which usually means real demands on their time and attention. The system HAS TO cater to this to be more effective. 3. As the environment changes the teaching methodology has to change. Right now phones and tablets really inhibit concentration. So something to counter this would be effective for all other classes. 4. Schools primary function is a safe place to keep your kids. Their inability to accept this makes them stuff the day with classes.
- copperx 12y ago
  > Teaching computer science via lecture format? seriously? I agree that hands-on learning in programming classes would be much better, but computer science in general? I don't think so.
vvpan 12y ago
I grew up and went to school in Russia, but spent my last three grades in the US. Both have their pros and cons, but some cons of the US system were very apparent. 1. In Russia I remember having eight classes a day only briefly and that quickly came to an end because having so many classes was considered to be close to child abuse. Six was the norm, sometime seven, but definitely not every day of the week. Here I had 9 classes every single day. I was not pleased at all. 2. The breaks between classes were only 3-5 minutes long in the US. Whereas in Russia they were 10-15 minutes. You can't socialize during 3-5 minutes you have to run to another class. Yes, you are less likely to "get in trouble", but getting in trouble is part of socializing. 3. Not really a problem with the schooling system, but the above two combined with living in the suburbs produces a great problem. You know you won't see any of the students for the rest of the day, unless your mom drives you to the mall or something. Socializing time is very brief during the school day, but really, that's all you've got... Needless to say I hated going to the US school tremendously. Color me cynical, but I am somewhat surprised that there are not many more school shooting than there are now. Oh and I graduated more than a decade ago, so perhaps things have changed, but I doubt it.
- diek 12y ago
  For point 3, it really depends on the suburb. I grew up in a nice suburb and after school was always about getting together with other kids in the area. We could ride bikes all around the neighborhood, go to local parks, and go to a movie on the weekends.
- mschuster91 12y ago
  > Here I had 9 classes every single day. I was not pleased at all. This is by far the worst thing in any school system... even in Germany, with 6 different subjects every day, it's hard because you shift your entire focus every 45min. Until you're in the correct focus, it needs ten minutes - and suddenly, a third of the lesson time is gone. Best would be three or four 90-minute blocks to avoid the constant mind-shifting, separated by 15-min (or at midday 30-45min) breaks in order to relax, eat and socialize.
  - cdwhite 12y ago
gizmo686 12y ago
Regarding #1 >Students sit all day, and sitting is exhausting. Doing any unfamiliar job all day is exhausting. There are plenty of other professions where sitting all day is the norm (like programming). Of course, most have the option of taking a stretch when they want to, but the only time I have seen people do this on a regular basis was for medical reasons. In high school, I had an administrator (the dean of students) enroll in one of my classes for a year.
- joshdance 12y ago
  Just because everyone sits all day doesn't mean everyone should. And working at a software company, I get up to stretch all the time because I just can't concentrate anymore. School kids do not have this option most of the time.
protonfish 12y ago
Having been a teacher (for one miserable year) I have too much to say about this. I'll try to make a few points and not rant. There is a reason that classes are like this. In my experience it is because if you try to have more participation in a large classroom it devolves quickly into chaos. Which you you little angels remember making sport of the substitute teacher? Putting 30 teenagers in a room with one adult and expecting them to sit for an hour every day and "learn" is laughably insane. Teachers that make it work do so by becoming wardens of their own little compound. And this is after all effective tools for discipline have been taken away from teachers and most parents and the slimy administrative politicians siding against you. Maybe if you could beat a little psychopath once in a while you would not have to put 99% of your classroom effort to shushing and threatening and other emotionally abusive crowd control techniques. Ever heard of Sudbury schools? These are schools were they don't make the kids do anything. There are no classes, standards or curriculum. Testing shows no significant academic difference with "normal" schools. Think about that: the effect of modern education is indistinguishable from a placebo. Education is fucked from the ground up. It's a stupid idea poorly executed. I say let's just be honest and call school what it is: baby-sitting. At least then we can stop being so cruel to our children and let them relax and enjoy themselves. Sorry, I failed to not rant.
- valar_m 12y ago
  Two years ago, I spent eight weeks teaching high school students about the legal system through a juvenile diversionary program called Street Law. One would think that this would be prime time for what you described, what with me being essentially a substitute teacher for a classroom of only students who had all at some point been charged with a crime. It was not. In fact, the exact opposite occurred. Students engaged in thoughtful discussion on a wide range of complex issues on which reasonable minds frequently disagree. We debated constitutional rights and justice reform. We shared personal experiences with racism and bigotry. We searched for ideas to stop it. One or two times, I think I even saw someone consider changing their mind. You probably think I am making this up. I am not. It happened, and I think it happened because I didn't treat them like children. I spoke to them with honesty. I asked them what they thought, and it took them by surprise. Perhaps if we stopped treating them like small children, they will stop acting that way. let's just be honest and call school what it is: baby-sitting Oh.
beerbajay 12y ago
Many American adults seem to forget just how abusive and degrading the entire school system is, especially during high school. The people who are attending high school are not really "children" in the sense of not having an informed worldview and autonomous identity and desires; they have informed preferences, can do risk assessment, and cost-benefit analysis. But these same people are forced to attend school the entire day, every day, where they are met with mostly indifference from teachers and bullying by peers. The system allows you little choice of subjects, no choice of classmates, and often no possibility of taking easier/harder versions of the classes. In college, you can choose to not attend a lecture; not in high school. In college, you can choose your courses (mostly); not in high school. "Babysitting" is a nice word for it, but for me, it felt like a prison and I would not wish it on anyone.

154 points by MrMrtn 12y ago

> In addition, there was a good deal of sarcasm and snark > directed at students > ... > I realize that sarcasm, impatience, and annoyance are a > way of creating a barrier between me and them. From a european point of view that is something the entire us-american culture embraces and grapples with vigorously, to the detriment of interactions among themselves and with other cultures. It would make sense that this is started and reinforced in school already.

moron4hire 12y ago
I think we're very stand-offish people. We tend to not engage in conversation with strangers. I think sarcasm is sort of a way to probe another person for where you stand with them, given a functionally retarded mindset towards personal interactions. You can say something, and if the person laughs, you know they are net-positive towards you, and if they don't, you can apologize and claim you were just being sarcastic.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- learc83 12y ago
  >I think we're very stand-offish people. We tend to not engage in conversation with strangers. I have never heard that from anyone. What culture are you comparing the US to? I've heard the exact opposite from nearly every non-American I've ever discussed this with. If anything they think Americans are too friendly/chatty.
  - moron4hire 12y ago
    Come to DC sometime.
learc83 12y ago
>us-american There's no need to ad "us" to "american". While the Americas can refer to the entire new world, the term "American" is wholly unambiguous. When you say American everyone in the world knows to whom you are referring, including all the other people of the Americas.
- alphydan 12y ago
  Wikipedia doesn't agree with you (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American) American also means > Something of, from, or related to the Americas > Indigenous peoples of the Americas If you had lived in a Latin american country and spoken enough with the locals, you would know that many refer to themselves as "Americans".
  - learc83 12y ago
    If anyone refers to Americans, in English, without qualification, the understanding is that they are referring to Citizens of the U.S. Natural language is inherently ambiguous and you will always find edge cases, but the definition of "American" is as close to completely unambiguous as you're going to get. I also take issue with your assertion that Latin Americans often refer to themselves as "American". I've never met a Latin American who said they were from "America" or were "American". Unless it was someone on an internet forum with a specific agenda. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but I have quite a bit of contact with people from Mexico and Peru, and I've never heard it from them. I'm going to need sources before I believe that term is in common use. Regardless usage dictates the rules of language and in English the common term is "American" not "Usamerican", or "USian".
    - alphydan 12y ago
      I think the confusion may come from the Spanish version of the word. "Americano" and "American" seem to carry different connotations. See: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uso_de_la_palabra_americano http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uso_de_la_palabra_americano or http://hispanismo.org/hispanoamerica/13746-usamerica-y-usamericano.html http://hispanismo.org/hispanoamerica/13746-usamerica-y-usame... for more details. Of course Natural language is ambiguous. It's also evolving and reflects attitudes, values and culture. It seems "American" == "US Citizen" has solidified, although the discussion was still going 60 years ago( http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/486658?uid=3739920&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21104810979837 http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/486658?uid=3739920&uid... ). Our experiences talking to Latin Americans probably differ because of language. I have lived in Latin America, as a native Spanish speaker (which may have made it easier for Latin Americans to communicate their musings on identity, US-centrism and language). The USA uses the name of the continent to name its citizens (As if French said ... "We're Europeans, and the Germans? Bah, they are only German, they can't really call themselves Europeans ... everybody knows that real Europeans are French). In any case, it seems your use of the word is the accepted meaning in English, so I stand corrected. But for your information, this is not the case in Spanish.
e12e 12y ago
Pink Floyd would disagree that it's a particularly US centric problem...? We don't need no education We dont need no thought control No dark sarcasm in the classroom Teachers leave them kids alone Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone! All in all it's just another brick in the wall. All in all you're just another brick in the wall. I can't really imagine that French or Italian schools are much better - but I may very well be wrong. And it'snbeen a few years since Pink Floyd was in school, obviously...

Afton 12y ago

The three points from the article: > [1] Students sit all day, and sitting is exhausting. > [2] High School students are sitting passively and listening during approximately 90% of their classes. > [3] You feel a little bit like a nuisance all day long. People wonder why high school aged students are unruly, unpleasant, and filled with deep negative emotions (anger, disdain, need-to-rebel). I look at this list (especially [2] and the lack of autonomy that follows) and the reason seems really clear. The basic model seems broken.

smoyer 12y ago
I'm on the board of a small private high-school and I'm going to forward this to the headmaster but ... Sitting all day [1] passively listening to a droning professor [2] and feeling like a nuisance [3] if you don't grasp the material, pay attention and avoid causing disruptions [3] is an important skill for college survival. If we change the curriculum to engage the students more (which I tend to believe will increase their retention of the materials), will we make them less capable of successfully performing 1, 2 & 3 in their college classes?
- joshdance 12y ago
  Getting teenagers to learn more, engage, take charge of their learning will make the less successful at college? Maybe college needs to change as well. But also, in college you can chose you class and institution. High school you have like 1 elective, you can't really change schools. If your college was like a bad high school, you need to go elsewhere.
- dangrossman 12y ago
  Was your college experience a lot like high school in that regard? I don't feel like mine was. My schedule never involved 6+ hours of sitting without breaks. Even in semesters with a heavy workload, some of the classes were always labs or very interactive, not just lectures. If classes were back-to-back, they were still often in different buildings, so there was a bit of an exercise break between lectures as opposed to walking down the hall in the same HS building. Virtually all professors were open to questions before/after class or had office hours or a TA with office hours -- asking questions was not seen as being a nuisance. Laptops/phones were allowed in nearly all lectures, which breaks up the monotony of sitting passively even during a lecture.

Periodic 12y ago

I'd like to step back from this from a moment and get a little more abstract and ask if this idea of shadowing applies to software products (or any other business, really). Has anyone really sat down and shadowed one of their users for a whole day? I know small usability studies are pretty common. You get someone in a room, ask them to perform some tasks, see what they do. But if you have an app that people are going to spend their whole day in, e.g. email, office suite, productivity, does anyone really sit down and shadow a user for a day? There might be things you don't notice if you only do it for an hour or two, or is it just not the same when the user isn't required by an authority to be present?

wglb 12y ago
I think quicken did this very early in their history. They would look over a new customers shoulder to fine any parts of the product that were hard to use.
peteretep 12y ago
Some people would argue that this is the meaning of "dog fooding"
matwood 12y ago
One of my first jobs was writing software for call centers. The agents did things like CS, take payments, etc... I frequently went onto the calling floor and sat with the agents to see how they worked. Their bonuses were in part based on speed, so any software I wanted them to use had to not slow them down. They also had to deal with multiple separate programs, so additional software had to get out of the way when not being used. It was a great first job, and I learned a lot about writing usable software.
jacalata 12y ago
Absolutely, this is known as user ethnography and has been around for a long time. Here's a random article: http://www.uxmatters.com/mt/archives/2010/06/ethnography-in-ux.php http://www.uxmatters.com/mt/archives/2010/06/ethnography-in-...

keeptrying 12y ago

Whats really amazing is that this experiment would have been a first of its kind in nearly 100s of years. I personally think that our class based education systems are languishing at some 100 year based minima right now w.r.t effectiveness. Present systems don't take into account: 1. Most subjects require different modalities of learning. Teaching computer science via lecture format? seriously? 2. Students have different economic situations which usually means real demands on their time and attention. The system HAS TO cater to this to be more effective. 3. As the environment changes the teaching methodology has to change. Right now phones and tablets really inhibit concentration. So something to counter this would be effective for all other classes. 4. Schools primary function is a safe place to keep your kids. Their inability to accept this makes them stuff the day with classes.

copperx 12y ago
> Teaching computer science via lecture format? seriously? I agree that hands-on learning in programming classes would be much better, but computer science in general? I don't think so.

vvpan 12y ago

I grew up and went to school in Russia, but spent my last three grades in the US. Both have their pros and cons, but some cons of the US system were very apparent. 1. In Russia I remember having eight classes a day only briefly and that quickly came to an end because having so many classes was considered to be close to child abuse. Six was the norm, sometime seven, but definitely not every day of the week. Here I had 9 classes every single day. I was not pleased at all. 2. The breaks between classes were only 3-5 minutes long in the US. Whereas in Russia they were 10-15 minutes. You can't socialize during 3-5 minutes you have to run to another class. Yes, you are less likely to "get in trouble", but getting in trouble is part of socializing. 3. Not really a problem with the schooling system, but the above two combined with living in the suburbs produces a great problem. You know you won't see any of the students for the rest of the day, unless your mom drives you to the mall or something. Socializing time is very brief during the school day, but really, that's all you've got... Needless to say I hated going to the US school tremendously. Color me cynical, but I am somewhat surprised that there are not many more school shooting than there are now. Oh and I graduated more than a decade ago, so perhaps things have changed, but I doubt it.

diek 12y ago
For point 3, it really depends on the suburb. I grew up in a nice suburb and after school was always about getting together with other kids in the area. We could ride bikes all around the neighborhood, go to local parks, and go to a movie on the weekends.
mschuster91 12y ago
> Here I had 9 classes every single day. I was not pleased at all. This is by far the worst thing in any school system... even in Germany, with 6 different subjects every day, it's hard because you shift your entire focus every 45min. Until you're in the correct focus, it needs ten minutes - and suddenly, a third of the lesson time is gone. Best would be three or four 90-minute blocks to avoid the constant mind-shifting, separated by 15-min (or at midday 30-45min) breaks in order to relax, eat and socialize.
- cdwhite 12y ago

gizmo686 12y ago

Regarding #1 >Students sit all day, and sitting is exhausting. Doing any unfamiliar job all day is exhausting. There are plenty of other professions where sitting all day is the norm (like programming). Of course, most have the option of taking a stretch when they want to, but the only time I have seen people do this on a regular basis was for medical reasons. In high school, I had an administrator (the dean of students) enroll in one of my classes for a year.

joshdance 12y ago
Just because everyone sits all day doesn't mean everyone should. And working at a software company, I get up to stretch all the time because I just can't concentrate anymore. School kids do not have this option most of the time.

protonfish 12y ago

Having been a teacher (for one miserable year) I have too much to say about this. I'll try to make a few points and not rant. There is a reason that classes are like this. In my experience it is because if you try to have more participation in a large classroom it devolves quickly into chaos. Which you you little angels remember making sport of the substitute teacher? Putting 30 teenagers in a room with one adult and expecting them to sit for an hour every day and "learn" is laughably insane. Teachers that make it work do so by becoming wardens of their own little compound. And this is after all effective tools for discipline have been taken away from teachers and most parents and the slimy administrative politicians siding against you. Maybe if you could beat a little psychopath once in a while you would not have to put 99% of your classroom effort to shushing and threatening and other emotionally abusive crowd control techniques. Ever heard of Sudbury schools? These are schools were they don't make the kids do anything. There are no classes, standards or curriculum. Testing shows no significant academic difference with "normal" schools. Think about that: the effect of modern education is indistinguishable from a placebo. Education is fucked from the ground up. It's a stupid idea poorly executed. I say let's just be honest and call school what it is: baby-sitting. At least then we can stop being so cruel to our children and let them relax and enjoy themselves. Sorry, I failed to not rant.

valar_m 12y ago
Two years ago, I spent eight weeks teaching high school students about the legal system through a juvenile diversionary program called Street Law. One would think that this would be prime time for what you described, what with me being essentially a substitute teacher for a classroom of only students who had all at some point been charged with a crime. It was not. In fact, the exact opposite occurred. Students engaged in thoughtful discussion on a wide range of complex issues on which reasonable minds frequently disagree. We debated constitutional rights and justice reform. We shared personal experiences with racism and bigotry. We searched for ideas to stop it. One or two times, I think I even saw someone consider changing their mind. You probably think I am making this up. I am not. It happened, and I think it happened because I didn't treat them like children. I spoke to them with honesty. I asked them what they thought, and it took them by surprise. Perhaps if we stopped treating them like small children, they will stop acting that way. let's just be honest and call school what it is: baby-sitting Oh.

beerbajay 12y ago

Many American adults seem to forget just how abusive and degrading the entire school system is, especially during high school. The people who are attending high school are not really "children" in the sense of not having an informed worldview and autonomous identity and desires; they have informed preferences, can do risk assessment, and cost-benefit analysis. But these same people are forced to attend school the entire day, every day, where they are met with mostly indifference from teachers and bullying by peers. The system allows you little choice of subjects, no choice of classmates, and often no possibility of taking easier/harder versions of the classes. In college, you can choose to not attend a lecture; not in high school. In college, you can choose your courses (mostly); not in high school. "Babysitting" is a nice word for it, but for me, it felt like a prison and I would not wish it on anyone.