20 ms·

From the startup who allegedly stole software and raised $2M with it

157 points by jparkside 12y ago

My name is Frederick Hutson, and I am the President and CEO of Pigeonly. I was recently made aware of a post made here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8227225 In light of the defamatory nature of the poster’s statements, I felt compelled to respond. Well over two years ago, we entered into a work-for-hire agreement with the poster to write aspects of the software code for a beta version of our initial e-commerce platform. Our agreement with the poster makes it clear that we own all work product produced pursuant to the agreement. In the end, however, we were very unhappy with the quality of the poster’s work so we terminated the relationship and requested a refund. In addition to my own assessment I consulted with several independent sources including a founding member of the CakePHP project (the framework the poster used). Everyone who evaluated the code said the same thing, to sum it up (in their professorial opinion) the framework was not utilized correctly which resulted in the numerous bugs and browser incompatibility issues. The truth is even if we wanted to work with the code the poster provided we couldn't because it was flawed. So we were left with no choice but to start from scratch with a new developer. The bottom line here is that through hard work and determination, we indeed built the Pigeonly platform from scratch and in no way incorporated any of the code produced by the poster. We are very proud of what we have built at Pigeonly, our mission is to build great products that solve the type of problems most would overlook.

dmix 12y ago
This is service work, this isn't Walmart. You can't get a refund, the best you can do is end contracts as soon as possible. Hiring software contract work is always, always risky for startups. This is why. Quality varies highly and it's expensive if you choose the wrong person. Worse is that you did a 'chargeback' on paypal which is a dirty tactic. Considering how awful Paypal's dispute process can be.
jasonkester 12y ago
I think you're going to have a hard time here trying to convince a developer community that a "refund" is something a client is entitled to in a work for hire situation. You ask a developer to do work for you, they do the requested work, and you pay them. If you don't like the work, you end the relationship. But you still have to pay them for their time. I don't envy the next few weeks for you guys, but you definitely brought it on yourself by stiffing a developer on an invoice. I suspect you'll come to regret having done that. As an ironic way of reinforcing the message, you're probably going to employ a lawyer on a work for hire basis in the near future. He's not going to deliver a result that you like. Try asking him for a refund and see how that works for you. Your best course of action is to pay the developer's invoice in full today. Then edit the above post into an apology.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- _delirium 12y ago
  > I think you're going to have a hard time here trying to convince a developer community that a "refund" is something a client is entitled to in a work for hire situation. Depends entirely on the contract. Many contracts include terms giving the client recourse in the case where unsatisfactory work product is delivered, especially if it's a pay-for-deliverable rather than pay-for-hours-worked contract. (But some don't, and some have more complex partial-payment or third-party mediation clauses.) It does sound like regardless of the contract dispute over that payment, the original post's accusations about the code are still false, if the post here is not lying about what code they're using. That post claimed that Pigeon.ly is using stolen code to run their product, while Pigeon.ly claims they are not using that code in their product. Which would still leave a payment dispute but not a copyright issue.
  - oddtarball 12y ago
    True. It absolutely depends on the specific contract each of them signed. If the contract were to say "Not satisfied? Full refund!" or anything like that, they technically are not under contract to NOT use the code. They would literally have legal basis, in that case, to run a startup from the very code they refused to pay for. Albeit unethical, it would be legal. Either way, the contract would clear this up. It's still bad press. With $2M in funding, just pay the dev and move on with a stable image of doing the right thing even if it isn't legally required to do so.
  - seren 12y ago
    > That post claimed that Pigeon.ly is using stolen code to run their product, while Pigeon.ly claims they are not using the code in their product. Does it really makes a difference if the code is currently running or not? Let's say, hypothetically, the code was not production ready but used in an alpha version to pitch an investor ? It is impossible to prove one way or another, but I wonder, if you could sue someone, on the basis that it "could have been used".
conjecTech 12y ago
Since both parties are in agreement as to what actions were taken, why don't you show us the contract so that we can determine who acted appropriately?
- zefi 12y ago
  This sounds like a bad idea. We are not King Solomon, nor should either party want his help. For simplicity's sake, neither party should take the opinion of anyone other than a lawyer on this.
  - justincormack 12y ago
    Well both sides have asked, bizarrely.
  - diminoten 12y ago
    Neither party should be here on HN with this, frankly...
- antr 12y ago
  Leave that to lawyers. The HN audience is savvy, but I don't think most of us are capable of legally interpreting an agreement without taking a side on the matter first.
  - conjecTech 12y ago
    I'm not asking to try the case for them. I'd simply like to come to my own conclusion.
konole 12y ago
> Everyone who evaluated the code said the same thing, to sum it up (in their professorial opinion) the framework was not utilized correctly which resulted in the numerous bugs and browser incompatibility issues. How using PHP framework may result in browser incompatibility issues? Whole processing happens in the server side for PHP, not in browser...
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  I believe Cake is like Rails in that it puts out JavaScript code automatically for AJAXing things.
  - dubcanada 12y ago
    While that is true, the Javascript it inserts is thoroughly tested for browser compatibility issues.
    - ceejayoz 12y ago
      Yes, in which case "the framework was not utilized correctly" could mean "reimplemented all that shittily rather than using the built-in stuff".
- danielweber 12y ago
  In the past I've definitely written PHP that worked in one browser but not another. I don't know why this is the hardest part of the story to believe.
- methodin 12y ago
  Like any MVC platform, there are tools in place to handle the V. If those tools were not used properly, and hacked, then it could indeed result in poor HTML.
joshcrowder 12y ago
Requesting a refund is different from a charge-back via PayPal. Working with any contractor be it an agency or a freelancer there is always a risk you wont be happy. The correct way of dealing with it is to find an agreement you can both deal with. Not use shitty Paypal tactics to reverse the charge. If you go for dinner and don't enjoy the food, you do not pay, leave and then call Amex and tell them your card was stolen.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
  > Requesting a refund is different from a charge-back via PayPal. Anytime Paypal's involved, the waters are so muddled who can say what happened? To even be entitled to a refund, the person has a limited amount of time to file a complaint. If the complaint is filed, Paypal may do the chargeback all by itself, even if this isn't specifically what the complainant intended.
  - abluecloud 12y ago
    Paypal nearly always sides with the buyer. If it's a service, even more so.
    - dleskov 12y ago
      My limited experience of disputing a PayPal transaction was exactly the opposite (i.e. I was the buyer).
      - disbelief 12y ago
        My extensive experience of being a PayPal seller is quite the contrary. People request a charge back, PayPal "encourages" them to contact you, which essentially is just an extra step in the charge back process that they can skip, then nearly every time the money is returned with nothing the seller can do about it.
        _delirium 12y ago
calewis 12y ago
Firstly, there are bugs. In everything, all the time. It's definitely not valid reason to not pay someone. Secondly, it's YOUR responsibility as the client to make sure what's being delivered is what you asked for. Developers are not mind readers, you need to put yourself in a position where you are regularly reviewing progress, you don't need to be a developer to do this, just sit down with him/her each week and ask them to show you how the functionality works for the user. Sounds like a case of poor product management to me.
KhalPanda 12y ago
A backend PHP framework causing browser incompatibility issues. Eh? Edit: To reply to the naysayers in one fell-swoop - unless CakePHP is identifying the browser from the request header and sending different templates/CSS accordingly (which sounds unlikely, and like a bad idea to me), there's no way for the framework to introduce cross-browser compatibility issues. Obviously the developer could create issues in the CSS or templates directly, but that's nothing to do with the framework... which is what I was getting at.
- xr4tiii 12y ago
  My thoughts exactly.
- websitescenes 12y ago
  I know!? I was wondering the same thing. Language is a little strange.
- bitJericho 12y ago
  CakePHP has a few features for use on the client-side.
- shangxiao 12y ago
  Why not? Server-side rendering of views?
- pmontra 12y ago
  Why not? It generates HTML which may have all the browser incompatibility issues a programmer can fit into a PHP file (replace with your favourite web language).
crunchcaptain 12y ago
NOTE to developers: This is why you shouldn't accept PayPal!
- Someone1234 12y ago
  Note to everyone: This is why you shouldn't accept PayPal. The only people PayPal benefits is consumers and scammers.
  - thekemkid 12y ago
    Mostly just scammers, though.
- lucb1e 12y ago
  Or why you should get your money out of there as quickly as humanly possible. I never leave more than ~25 bucks on there.
  - k3oni 12y ago
    It doesn't matter how much money you leave in there. Do you have a CC on file or bank account, they might charge it, and even if you don't have paypal might not allow you to do any more business using their platform until all is cleared and you paid if the charge-back goes through in the client's favor.
  - marcos123 12y ago
    No, you just shouldn't accept paypal. As k3oni states, it doesn't matter how much money you have in your paypal account. When a chargeback happens paypal will take whatever small amount of money you do have in there, and your account will go negative for the remaining balance... and then the bill collectors start calling.
Igglyboo 12y ago
Regardless of how the contract was worded or the outcome of your relationship, requesting a chargeback on PayPal as your first option is really underhanded.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
  You don't "request chargebacks" on Paypal, you file complaints. And not filing a complaint wasn't really an option. They have no recourse if they don't file a complaint within some short period of time.
bradfa 12y ago
How does airing even more dirty laundry in public around this help anyone involved? Both sides need to seek professional (paid!) advice on how to handle this situation and then handle it in PRIVATE. Bitching about something that happened on the Internet is not productive and will only give the other side's lawyers things to use against you if a suit happens. Someone needs to sue someone. Otherwise just shut up, both sides.
- giarc 12y ago
  I think the OP has a right to say "You don't know the whole truth" simply just to inform readers that they are only getting one side of the story. However, I do agree that the rest should be left to private discussions between legal representation.
oldmanjay 12y ago
You really have no reason to post this here. If nothing else, you'll hit the programmer equivalent of the blue line. The people here will side with the developer reflexively. You literally have nothing to gain.
- easytiger 12y ago
  Err, that is complete nonsense. If there is a reasonable case to be made then people should consider it.
  - sswaner 12y ago
    Consider it for what benefit to pigeon.ly? True there is altruistic value to the HN community, but from a business perspective his OP is likely to cause damage to his brand.
    - untog 12y ago
      Not really. If the original poster hadn't outed them by name it would be fine, but as it is a very popular HN post directly says that Pigeon.ly are thieves. I think they're reasonable to want to counter that.
      - DerpDerpDerp 12y ago
        Countering that you only stole his wallet, not his car might not have been the best response though.
- danielweber 12y ago
  He shouldn't talk about how the code was crap and that he deserved a refund. But he should say (if true) that they threw out the old code because of reasons, and rewrote it from scratch. That was the biggest issue raised in the initial allegation: that they were currently using code that they had not paid for.
dubcanada 12y ago
I'm sorry but I fail to see what this post is for. You made a post complaining about someone else's post (of which should not have been made in the first place) trying too win over people of whom have no opinion on the matter? Or is this just you trying to get some PR cred by saying that it was buggy/not properly done/blah blah because a bunch of people (which could be entirely made up) said so? And in my professional opinion (no offense to the CakePHP developers) but CakePHP is about as opinionated as you get with PHP frameworks, it's almost impossible to "use it wrongly". So sorry but that sounds like a load of crock.
- dblacc 12y ago
  >I'm sorry but I fail to see what this post is for. You made a post complaining about someone else's post (of which should not have been made in the first place) trying too win over people of whom have no opinion on the matter? weeeeell, if he's the founder, he does have a right to defend his companies reputation (that said, i don't agree with the way he's handled it).
- josegonzalez 12y ago
  As a CakePHP Core Developer, I disagree with the fact that you can't use the framework wrong. Any utility/library/framework can and will be bent backwards to accommodate the needs of the developer, and in ways the original developer did not imagine were possible. It's totally possible that the developer in question wrote horrid code - though any browser issues would only be caused by html/css, something the framework doesn't generate for you past having initial admin-type scaffolding. I still think the guy should have gotten paid and kept the money.
MoOmer 12y ago
Pretty telling that this post's comments have become a place for us developers to warn and caution each other on how to protect ourselves from this kind of predation.
dqmdm2 12y ago
You asked for a refund, or you did a charge-back and let them find out that way? Very different concepts. Did you request a refund, get refused, then do a charge-back? What sort of checkpoints did you have during development?
danielweber 12y ago
Why the heck is "allegedly" in scare quotes? "Allegedly" is exactly the proper word to use. There were allegations made. We don't know what happened. Also, this drama playing out in public is a very bad idea for all parties involved. EDIT Title no longer has "allegedly" in scare quotes.
- grayclhn 12y ago
  That's my favorite part. I clicked here expecting more evidence that they stole. "Stole" should be in scare quotes, if anything.
web_ 12y ago
> "...the framework was not utilized correctly which resulted in the numerous bugs and browser incompatibility issues." CakePHP is a server-side framework. Browser incompatibility is not going to be an issue of CakePHP. Either you are too inexperienced to know this or you are making a lame excuse. I can see where this would go wrong if the developer made a complete rookie mistake and screwing up input on forms, methods, requests, etc. But these are the reasons for choosing and using a framework, anyone using a framework should know this. These types of problems are abstracted and there is not a need to reinvent the wheel. This does not add up with your story. I am calling BS. I think you stiffed the developer and you trying to save face. You guys were apparently not involved with the development processes of the project, you could have had the developer resolve the problems and thus would not have had a complaint. In the end, this is basic business, you agreed to pay the developer for their time. You allowed the developer to complete the project apparently without question, pay up and move on.
- shangxiao 12y ago
  > I can see where this would go wrong if the developer made a complete rookie mistake and screwing up input on forms, methods, requests, etc. But these are the reasons for choosing and using a framework ... I think you just pointed what the problem might've actually been: Not using the framework to prevent browser incompatibility. The OP didn't say that CakePHP was the cause of the problem.
- johnward 12y ago
  The front-end issues may have nothing to do with the CakePHP framework but the developer did have to create/modify views. In that case the dev still could have cause incompatibility issues. I'm not picking sides in this but I'm just saying that the OP not understanding what the framework does, doesn't mean that the dev is completely off the hook.
lucb1e 12y ago
Most comments here are critical and I tend to agree in that 1) it's unclear whether you "requested a refund" or chargebacked and 2) if you don't like someone's work, you still have to pay the hours they spent. That's the risk when hiring someone, unless there are specific requirements that weren't met by the developer. On the other hand I would like to say that it's good to open the discussion instead of, like most companies would, not responding and letting the legal team handle anything if necessary.
jessebushkar 12y ago
Interesting situation. One point to make: CakePHP cannot cause browser compatibility issues. CakePHP is a backend framework and does not itself cause client side issues. I know this is splitting hairs, but a lot of things can contribute to client-side issues. If a design is in bad shape (ie. browser considerations were not made during planning), then CakePHP wouldn't be a relevant point for front-end issues. That's all, carry on. I hope everyone's bickering and finger-pointing goes well on this fine Friday.
andhof-mt 12y ago
I worked as a contract engineer for several years and here is my take: Typically in a contract relationship you have alot less obligations than hiring a salaried employee. At the same time, this person is using their valuable time towards your project. As a result of this, they usually ask for compensation which is agreed upon beforehand. You agreed to a certain amount of compensation, and than chose not to pay. Sometimes contractors do not meet expectation, and I've seen this happen. But if you have already agreed upon milestones it is only appropriate to pay them at least up to the point at which you request they quit or fire them. If you did not agree upon milestones (which a business with your funding should have.) You should still be paying him for the work done. Your disagreement over his work could cause his family to go hungry for a week. Such is the life of a contractor. All in all, perhaps both of you performed without much regard to ethic. He did a shoddy job and you refused to pay. But your running the business and as a result have a lot more to lose from a bad image. Just pay up and move on.
- otakucode 12y ago
  You mean as an employer I can't just use 'contractor' as a way to skirt paying payroll taxes, unemployment, workers comp, etc and then hire the cheapest dev I can find and refuse payment if the work isn't top notch? As far as I've been able to determine, as an employer I am entitled to software. I am entitled to workers who produce things that amplify the earnings of my company by an order of magnitude while paying just enough to keep the workers complacent. This is America, is it not? (note: This post has been sarcasm.)
edpichler 12y ago
You should do small projects to evaluate developers you hire.
omouse 12y ago
How many hours of this developers time did you take up? Refunds don't exist unless you're willing to go to court and if the work was actually damaging to your company. You took a risk and you have to pay for at least the time of the developer if not their skill (since it wasn't up to your expectations). In any case, you built the app from the scratch. The previous dev with their previous crappy code base can go cry somewhere else and stop making defamatory comments about your company.
webmaven 12y ago
"So we were left with no choice but to start from scratch with a new developer." In that case, the solution is simple. Tell them "We are not using the code you delivered to us in any form. You are welcome to keep it".
dominotw 12y ago
Clueless clients like these are freelancer's worst nightmare.
- api 12y ago
  I've turned down a number of freelance gigs just from getting this kind of "smell." It's not worth it. If I smell... umm... certain intimate hygiene products... I run away. Red flags I've seen include: * Smarmy-looking marketing materials. If I visit the site and think "hmm... would I be worried about downloading this app for fear it would infect my machine?" then that's a bad sign. * Some advance-marketing and extreme-MVP tactics are okay, but if they take it too far I see it as a red flag. * Intuition. If I could bottle it I would charge for it and be rich. Earned through school of hard knocks, which is as far as I know the only way to get this. * No haggling at all on price... especially when combined with other red flags. This leads me to think they're not haggling because they'll just stiff me. * No milestones or other metrics come up in discussion. * They don't know what they want. I've seen the screwage go both ways in contracting arrangements where the hiring party kind of just wants "something cool" with only some extremely vague sense of what it looks like. In either case it's not something I want to be a part of. * Shell company bingo... if I do a search on the founders and they have five dozen LLCs to their names it means they'll just fold the entity and stiff everyone if it doesn't work out. "Extend yourself on others' credit, test a market, and stiff people by busting out the shell if the market doesn't pan out" is a common sketchy business practice.
issa 12y ago
I once recorded a band. I thought we made a pretty good record, but they said they were unhappy and didn't want to pay me. Then they released the record. My point: this kind of thing isn't limited to software development. If you benefit from someone else's work, pay them.
marketingadvice 12y ago
Development is the same as any service, refunds don't really happen
DerpDerpDerp 12y ago
This post makes your company look considerably less professional than it otherwise would have, even leaving allegations about code theft unanswered. I might have been unsure if you were running copyrighted code, but now I know for sure you stiffed a programmer and are trying to cover your ass after the fact. As a professional consideration, I won't be using any of your services. Failing to pay an appropriate invoice for services rendered to you is a serious black mark for a company, particularly to people who depend on contract work to make a living. Finally: > Our agreement with the poster makes it clear that we own all work product produced pursuant to the agreement I suspect that this is only true in the event that you completely paid the programmer. Failing to do so likely invalidated the copyright transfer, which is standard language to include in a contract. I also suspect that the code you're currently running is not a clean rewrite, meaning that the next programmer based his code on that code and likely didn't remove literally every piece of it from the code base before starting. This very easily could have left your company with liability regarding the code you're no longer using, because the formation of your current code base depended integrally on violating the copyright of the programmer you didn't pay. I suspect you should just shut up and stop making a bigger deal of this in public, and that you should ask your lawyer point blank if the cost of fighting over the liability you might not have properly controlled will be cheaper than just paying the rest of the programmer's fee.
- OzzyB 12y ago
  > As a professional consideration, I won't be using any of your services Considering their product is to help prison inmates communicate -- I hope none of us get to use their services!
  - hga 12y ago
    Well, you could be at the other end of the communications, their 4 word description is "Connecting Inmates to Society". In a "Three Felonies a Day" (http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594035229 http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/...) society the odds of your ending up in one or the other position are probably greater than you think, certainly greater than you hope.
nevinera 12y ago
Not that it's directly relevant to the claim, but 'work-for-hire' agreements do not directly to apply to most software. In particular, you cannot use a work-for-hire agreement to cause on-the-fly copyright transfer as code is written, you have to include in your contract a requirement about a separate copyright transfer. Here's a decent write-up I found: http://www.metrocorpcounsel.com/articles/9954/work-hire-doctrine-almost-never-works-software-development-contracts http://www.metrocorpcounsel.com/articles/9954/work-hire-doct... There's a separate point here though - your contractor wrote the code which you claim not to be using, but he most likely also did a great deal of software design - data modelling, layouts, behavioral descriptions, navigation, etc. If you are using any of that, you are still using his work. Legally speaking, even if he was as terrible a developer as you say, you are probably screwed for the money he was owed unless you had a lawyer write his contract with an eye toward not paying for poor work. That's just how contracting works.
korzun 12y ago
This is a shit storm. You had a D level agency write the code, then you consulted (apparently) B level players in technology field about this code. Obviously they will find issues with it. Hell I will find issues with anything if I really wanted to during a code audit. Without details it's all bull. Now, you are claiming you rewrote the code internally. Your LinkedIn shows a CTO that does not seem to have A level background and an software engineer who used to be a network technician prior to joining your company. Not A level team either. So I don't believe your claim that you rewrote it 'properly' after getting some sort of feedback from 'Founding' CakePHP member. There is no way you are entitled to do refund at this point. In my observation. Good luck.
- _delirium 12y ago
  > Now, you are claiming you rewrote the code internally. It's a little ambiguous, but by "start from scratch with a new developer", I interpreted that to mean they dumped the first contractor and hired a new contractor, not that they rewrote it internally.
socrates1998 12y ago
You used his code in some respects even if it wasn't in the final product. If nothing more, then you knew what not to do or what was difficult to do. Regardless, you probably should have paid him. It all depends on the nature of the contract. If it was for services and not for a completed project, then you absolutely needed to pay him. If it was for a completed and usable product, then you didn't have to pay him. Regardless, people here will think twice about working for you.
AndrewKemendo 12y ago
This seems like a terrible forum for both the original complaint and this response. There doesn't seem to be any good that can come for either side or the HN community.
reacweb 12y ago
If you ask for a refund, I think you do not own anymore the work of the "bad developer". If pigeonly platform has anything in common with the "bad code", you have a copyright problem. I think you should have asked a partial refund in order to keep property of the work done.
wernerb 12y ago
Like other comments, I wish, that unlike your accusers, you would not engage on the same level of public mudslinging as it will hurt you professionally. That said, there is a significant difference between paying someone and getting a refund, and not paying altogether. A better recourse would have been to go to court to get your payment back, and have independent professionals (as you already did yourself) grade the work completed. Note that in these cases the software is graded by its "peers" (average programmers), meaning that if the work is deemed "barely" acceptable, you will not see your money back. I hope you the best on this issue and also hope that hackernews will not be used as a platform for legal/code-theft arbitration in the future.
AJ007 12y ago
A lot of opinions and subjectivity in the comments here. This was a business to business transaction. What it said in the contract, and the jurisdiction that the contract fell under are about all that matter. Anyone in this business knows the grey area work for hire programming contracts fall under. (Depending on some legal opinions if it was "work-for-hire" it may be completely void as work-for-hire doesn't cover programming except under narrow cases.) Here one party has publicly received a large sum of money. Lawyers will look favorably on that upon taking cases. The programmers who feel they were wronged can then decide, should we wait a while? Will the company get more funding or will they go out of business? A worst case scenario would be that the original contract programmers are entitled to a large percentage of equity in this company. Whether or not the code is used today may not even matter. Another lesson here is to be careful who you work with. Make sure they can accomplish what you expect. It should be damn evident pretty quick when a developer is producing poor code (if it isn't, you shouldn't be in tech.) If you bake defaulting in to your business model, be careful. Individuals and small businesses remember getting screwed far longer than faceless corporations who will just sell your debt to a collections agency.
ianstallings 12y ago
There's actually already a public forum for this type of dispute. It's called a court room.
pnathan 12y ago
* Don't stiff people, ever. * Don't renege on agreements. * Don't play hardball with bit players. * Don't ask for refunds on contract work. You biffed it[1]. Suck it up, pay the guy his money, apologize for being a douche (maybe ask for a public acknowledgement of him receiving his money even), move on. [1] A good way to properly manage this sort of thing is to have milestones, on each milestone, evaluate the contract for a terminate/no-terminate point; if it's terminate, pay what's owed up to that point and tie the relationship off. Which, by the way, is not uncommon advice on the internet.
joshdotsmith 12y ago
This is exactly why you don't go 4 months with non-payment by a client. They stop paying? You stop working. Simple as that, and this whole issue could have been avoided. On the flip side, as an employer, this is why you should hire slowly and fire quickly. And if you're nontechnical, you better be sure that your contractor knows what they're doing.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
spacemanmatt 12y ago
This isn't even a software mistake. This is just a business risk error. The analogy I would apply is: If you've contracted a house to be built, you should make sure professional inspectors sign off on each critical stage before the next one proceeds, so you don't end up with a good house on top of a bad foundation.
zheshishei 12y ago
I did a bit of amateur sleuthing(googling) out of curiosity. First, let's lay out the hard facts: 1. The work-for-hire occurred at least two years ago. This would peg the time frame at roughly early-mid 2012. 2. Pigeonly started out as Fotopigeon, the photo sending portion of the company. Telepigeon was added at a much later date. 3. Pigeonly applied to the YCombinator Summer 2012 batch, but was rejected [1]. 4. Pigeonly entered the NewMe Accelerator as part of their Spring 2013 batch[2]. The equity stake that NewMe took was 4%[3]. Crunchbase lists the intial investment date at October 2012[7] 5. Pigeonly also received a $20000 investment in December 2012 from FIU AVCC as well as $10000 in services from New Frontier Nomads to build out a MVP[4]. 6. Frederick Hutson is placed in a work-release program in September 2011 and is released in March 2012[5]. 7. Hutson's budget prior to December 2012 was a minimum of $2500[5]. 8. From the article: "From the halfway house, he did not have any money, so he persuaded the photo company to do some coding for free." [5] 9. The developer claims Pigeonly fell behind on payments[6]. Now for the assumptions/conclusions: A. From #2 and #5 we can conclude that that the codebase in question is not in use today. B. Prior to October 2012, based upon #3, #4, #6 and #7, we can assume that the total amount of funding Pigeonly had was not substantially more than $X000. C. From #8, interpreting the identity of "the photo company" is impossible, but if we assume that it is the developer, then D follows. D. From #8, initial coding occurs while Hutson is in the work-release program ("halfway house"), pegging the date at some time between September 2011 and March 2012 (from #6) E. From B and D, it seems that #9 is plausible, if not probable. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=jparkside https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=jparkside [2] http://www.newmeaccelerator.com/2013/02/04/spring-2013-startups-announced/ http://www.newmeaccelerator.com/2013/02/04/spring-2013-start... [3] http://www.f6s.com/profile/38508 http://www.f6s.com/profile/38508 [4] http://avcc2012.fiu.edu/ http://avcc2012.fiu.edu/ (second image on the carousel) [5] http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/idea-mans-latest-inspiration-prison/2116555 http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/idea-mans-latest-... [6] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8227225 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8227225 [7] http://www.crunchbase.com/organization/pigeonly http://www.crunchbase.com/organization/pigeonly
throaway53261 12y ago
Once again... bit.ly/1qnBgi3
ossreality 12y ago
Gonna go out on a limb and assume that you're not a dev. Yep, just an idea guy who thinks dev is just hired labor. Cool.
aioprisan 12y ago
Guys, this will absolutely kill your chances to hire any good developers in the future. This is the kind of thing that you should not respond to publicly and pay your lawyers for instead. The number of technical mistakes you made in your post paints you in an even worse light, but at the end of the day it's a "he said, she said" situation, where we can't compare code bases on what was done, what the quality is, and how the code is currently used.

157 points by jparkside 12y ago

dmix 12y ago

This is service work, this isn't Walmart. You can't get a refund, the best you can do is end contracts as soon as possible. Hiring software contract work is always, always risky for startups. This is why. Quality varies highly and it's expensive if you choose the wrong person. Worse is that you did a 'chargeback' on paypal which is a dirty tactic. Considering how awful Paypal's dispute process can be.

jasonkester 12y ago

I think you're going to have a hard time here trying to convince a developer community that a "refund" is something a client is entitled to in a work for hire situation. You ask a developer to do work for you, they do the requested work, and you pay them. If you don't like the work, you end the relationship. But you still have to pay them for their time. I don't envy the next few weeks for you guys, but you definitely brought it on yourself by stiffing a developer on an invoice. I suspect you'll come to regret having done that. As an ironic way of reinforcing the message, you're probably going to employ a lawyer on a work for hire basis in the near future. He's not going to deliver a result that you like. Try asking him for a refund and see how that works for you. Your best course of action is to pay the developer's invoice in full today. Then edit the above post into an apology.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
_delirium 12y ago
> I think you're going to have a hard time here trying to convince a developer community that a "refund" is something a client is entitled to in a work for hire situation. Depends entirely on the contract. Many contracts include terms giving the client recourse in the case where unsatisfactory work product is delivered, especially if it's a pay-for-deliverable rather than pay-for-hours-worked contract. (But some don't, and some have more complex partial-payment or third-party mediation clauses.) It does sound like regardless of the contract dispute over that payment, the original post's accusations about the code are still false, if the post here is not lying about what code they're using. That post claimed that Pigeon.ly is using stolen code to run their product, while Pigeon.ly claims they are not using that code in their product. Which would still leave a payment dispute but not a copyright issue.
- oddtarball 12y ago
  True. It absolutely depends on the specific contract each of them signed. If the contract were to say "Not satisfied? Full refund!" or anything like that, they technically are not under contract to NOT use the code. They would literally have legal basis, in that case, to run a startup from the very code they refused to pay for. Albeit unethical, it would be legal. Either way, the contract would clear this up. It's still bad press. With $2M in funding, just pay the dev and move on with a stable image of doing the right thing even if it isn't legally required to do so.
- seren 12y ago
  > That post claimed that Pigeon.ly is using stolen code to run their product, while Pigeon.ly claims they are not using the code in their product. Does it really makes a difference if the code is currently running or not? Let's say, hypothetically, the code was not production ready but used in an alpha version to pitch an investor ? It is impossible to prove one way or another, but I wonder, if you could sue someone, on the basis that it "could have been used".

conjecTech 12y ago

Since both parties are in agreement as to what actions were taken, why don't you show us the contract so that we can determine who acted appropriately?

zefi 12y ago
This sounds like a bad idea. We are not King Solomon, nor should either party want his help. For simplicity's sake, neither party should take the opinion of anyone other than a lawyer on this.
- justincormack 12y ago
  Well both sides have asked, bizarrely.
- diminoten 12y ago
  Neither party should be here on HN with this, frankly...
antr 12y ago
Leave that to lawyers. The HN audience is savvy, but I don't think most of us are capable of legally interpreting an agreement without taking a side on the matter first.
- conjecTech 12y ago
  I'm not asking to try the case for them. I'd simply like to come to my own conclusion.

konole 12y ago

> Everyone who evaluated the code said the same thing, to sum it up (in their professorial opinion) the framework was not utilized correctly which resulted in the numerous bugs and browser incompatibility issues. How using PHP framework may result in browser incompatibility issues? Whole processing happens in the server side for PHP, not in browser...

ceejayoz 12y ago
I believe Cake is like Rails in that it puts out JavaScript code automatically for AJAXing things.
- dubcanada 12y ago
  While that is true, the Javascript it inserts is thoroughly tested for browser compatibility issues.
  - ceejayoz 12y ago
    Yes, in which case "the framework was not utilized correctly" could mean "reimplemented all that shittily rather than using the built-in stuff".
danielweber 12y ago
In the past I've definitely written PHP that worked in one browser but not another. I don't know why this is the hardest part of the story to believe.
methodin 12y ago
Like any MVC platform, there are tools in place to handle the V. If those tools were not used properly, and hacked, then it could indeed result in poor HTML.

joshcrowder 12y ago

Requesting a refund is different from a charge-back via PayPal. Working with any contractor be it an agency or a freelancer there is always a risk you wont be happy. The correct way of dealing with it is to find an agreement you can both deal with. Not use shitty Paypal tactics to reverse the charge. If you go for dinner and don't enjoy the food, you do not pay, leave and then call Amex and tell them your card was stolen.

NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
> Requesting a refund is different from a charge-back via PayPal. Anytime Paypal's involved, the waters are so muddled who can say what happened? To even be entitled to a refund, the person has a limited amount of time to file a complaint. If the complaint is filed, Paypal may do the chargeback all by itself, even if this isn't specifically what the complainant intended.
- abluecloud 12y ago
  Paypal nearly always sides with the buyer. If it's a service, even more so.
  - dleskov 12y ago
    My limited experience of disputing a PayPal transaction was exactly the opposite (i.e. I was the buyer).
    - disbelief 12y ago
      My extensive experience of being a PayPal seller is quite the contrary. People request a charge back, PayPal "encourages" them to contact you, which essentially is just an extra step in the charge back process that they can skip, then nearly every time the money is returned with nothing the seller can do about it.
      - _delirium 12y ago

calewis 12y ago

Firstly, there are bugs. In everything, all the time. It's definitely not valid reason to not pay someone. Secondly, it's YOUR responsibility as the client to make sure what's being delivered is what you asked for. Developers are not mind readers, you need to put yourself in a position where you are regularly reviewing progress, you don't need to be a developer to do this, just sit down with him/her each week and ask them to show you how the functionality works for the user. Sounds like a case of poor product management to me.

KhalPanda 12y ago

A backend PHP framework causing browser incompatibility issues. Eh? Edit: To reply to the naysayers in one fell-swoop - unless CakePHP is identifying the browser from the request header and sending different templates/CSS accordingly (which sounds unlikely, and like a bad idea to me), there's no way for the framework to introduce cross-browser compatibility issues. Obviously the developer could create issues in the CSS or templates directly, but that's nothing to do with the framework... which is what I was getting at.

xr4tiii 12y ago
My thoughts exactly.
websitescenes 12y ago
I know!? I was wondering the same thing. Language is a little strange.
bitJericho 12y ago
CakePHP has a few features for use on the client-side.
shangxiao 12y ago
Why not? Server-side rendering of views?
pmontra 12y ago
Why not? It generates HTML which may have all the browser incompatibility issues a programmer can fit into a PHP file (replace with your favourite web language).

crunchcaptain 12y ago

NOTE to developers: This is why you shouldn't accept PayPal!

Someone1234 12y ago
Note to everyone: This is why you shouldn't accept PayPal. The only people PayPal benefits is consumers and scammers.
- thekemkid 12y ago
  Mostly just scammers, though.
lucb1e 12y ago
Or why you should get your money out of there as quickly as humanly possible. I never leave more than ~25 bucks on there.
- k3oni 12y ago
  It doesn't matter how much money you leave in there. Do you have a CC on file or bank account, they might charge it, and even if you don't have paypal might not allow you to do any more business using their platform until all is cleared and you paid if the charge-back goes through in the client's favor.
- marcos123 12y ago
  No, you just shouldn't accept paypal. As k3oni states, it doesn't matter how much money you have in your paypal account. When a chargeback happens paypal will take whatever small amount of money you do have in there, and your account will go negative for the remaining balance... and then the bill collectors start calling.

Igglyboo 12y ago

Regardless of how the contract was worded or the outcome of your relationship, requesting a chargeback on PayPal as your first option is really underhanded.

NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
You don't "request chargebacks" on Paypal, you file complaints. And not filing a complaint wasn't really an option. They have no recourse if they don't file a complaint within some short period of time.

bradfa 12y ago

How does airing even more dirty laundry in public around this help anyone involved? Both sides need to seek professional (paid!) advice on how to handle this situation and then handle it in PRIVATE. Bitching about something that happened on the Internet is not productive and will only give the other side's lawyers things to use against you if a suit happens. Someone needs to sue someone. Otherwise just shut up, both sides.

giarc 12y ago
I think the OP has a right to say "You don't know the whole truth" simply just to inform readers that they are only getting one side of the story. However, I do agree that the rest should be left to private discussions between legal representation.

oldmanjay 12y ago

You really have no reason to post this here. If nothing else, you'll hit the programmer equivalent of the blue line. The people here will side with the developer reflexively. You literally have nothing to gain.

easytiger 12y ago
Err, that is complete nonsense. If there is a reasonable case to be made then people should consider it.
- sswaner 12y ago
  Consider it for what benefit to pigeon.ly? True there is altruistic value to the HN community, but from a business perspective his OP is likely to cause damage to his brand.
  - untog 12y ago
    Not really. If the original poster hadn't outed them by name it would be fine, but as it is a very popular HN post directly says that Pigeon.ly are thieves. I think they're reasonable to want to counter that.
    - DerpDerpDerp 12y ago
      Countering that you only stole his wallet, not his car might not have been the best response though.
danielweber 12y ago
He shouldn't talk about how the code was crap and that he deserved a refund. But he should say (if true) that they threw out the old code because of reasons, and rewrote it from scratch. That was the biggest issue raised in the initial allegation: that they were currently using code that they had not paid for.

dubcanada 12y ago

I'm sorry but I fail to see what this post is for. You made a post complaining about someone else's post (of which should not have been made in the first place) trying too win over people of whom have no opinion on the matter? Or is this just you trying to get some PR cred by saying that it was buggy/not properly done/blah blah because a bunch of people (which could be entirely made up) said so? And in my professional opinion (no offense to the CakePHP developers) but CakePHP is about as opinionated as you get with PHP frameworks, it's almost impossible to "use it wrongly". So sorry but that sounds like a load of crock.

dblacc 12y ago
>I'm sorry but I fail to see what this post is for. You made a post complaining about someone else's post (of which should not have been made in the first place) trying too win over people of whom have no opinion on the matter? weeeeell, if he's the founder, he does have a right to defend his companies reputation (that said, i don't agree with the way he's handled it).
josegonzalez 12y ago
As a CakePHP Core Developer, I disagree with the fact that you can't use the framework wrong. Any utility/library/framework can and will be bent backwards to accommodate the needs of the developer, and in ways the original developer did not imagine were possible. It's totally possible that the developer in question wrote horrid code - though any browser issues would only be caused by html/css, something the framework doesn't generate for you past having initial admin-type scaffolding. I still think the guy should have gotten paid and kept the money.

MoOmer 12y ago

Pretty telling that this post's comments have become a place for us developers to warn and caution each other on how to protect ourselves from this kind of predation.

dqmdm2 12y ago

You asked for a refund, or you did a charge-back and let them find out that way? Very different concepts. Did you request a refund, get refused, then do a charge-back? What sort of checkpoints did you have during development?

danielweber 12y ago

Why the heck is "allegedly" in scare quotes? "Allegedly" is exactly the proper word to use. There were allegations made. We don't know what happened. Also, this drama playing out in public is a very bad idea for all parties involved. EDIT Title no longer has "allegedly" in scare quotes.

grayclhn 12y ago
That's my favorite part. I clicked here expecting more evidence that they stole. "Stole" should be in scare quotes, if anything.

web_ 12y ago

> "...the framework was not utilized correctly which resulted in the numerous bugs and browser incompatibility issues." CakePHP is a server-side framework. Browser incompatibility is not going to be an issue of CakePHP. Either you are too inexperienced to know this or you are making a lame excuse. I can see where this would go wrong if the developer made a complete rookie mistake and screwing up input on forms, methods, requests, etc. But these are the reasons for choosing and using a framework, anyone using a framework should know this. These types of problems are abstracted and there is not a need to reinvent the wheel. This does not add up with your story. I am calling BS. I think you stiffed the developer and you trying to save face. You guys were apparently not involved with the development processes of the project, you could have had the developer resolve the problems and thus would not have had a complaint. In the end, this is basic business, you agreed to pay the developer for their time. You allowed the developer to complete the project apparently without question, pay up and move on.

shangxiao 12y ago
> I can see where this would go wrong if the developer made a complete rookie mistake and screwing up input on forms, methods, requests, etc. But these are the reasons for choosing and using a framework ... I think you just pointed what the problem might've actually been: Not using the framework to prevent browser incompatibility. The OP didn't say that CakePHP was the cause of the problem.
johnward 12y ago
The front-end issues may have nothing to do with the CakePHP framework but the developer did have to create/modify views. In that case the dev still could have cause incompatibility issues. I'm not picking sides in this but I'm just saying that the OP not understanding what the framework does, doesn't mean that the dev is completely off the hook.

lucb1e 12y ago

Most comments here are critical and I tend to agree in that 1) it's unclear whether you "requested a refund" or chargebacked and 2) if you don't like someone's work, you still have to pay the hours they spent. That's the risk when hiring someone, unless there are specific requirements that weren't met by the developer. On the other hand I would like to say that it's good to open the discussion instead of, like most companies would, not responding and letting the legal team handle anything if necessary.

jessebushkar 12y ago

Interesting situation. One point to make: CakePHP cannot cause browser compatibility issues. CakePHP is a backend framework and does not itself cause client side issues. I know this is splitting hairs, but a lot of things can contribute to client-side issues. If a design is in bad shape (ie. browser considerations were not made during planning), then CakePHP wouldn't be a relevant point for front-end issues. That's all, carry on. I hope everyone's bickering and finger-pointing goes well on this fine Friday.

andhof-mt 12y ago

I worked as a contract engineer for several years and here is my take: Typically in a contract relationship you have alot less obligations than hiring a salaried employee. At the same time, this person is using their valuable time towards your project. As a result of this, they usually ask for compensation which is agreed upon beforehand. You agreed to a certain amount of compensation, and than chose not to pay. Sometimes contractors do not meet expectation, and I've seen this happen. But if you have already agreed upon milestones it is only appropriate to pay them at least up to the point at which you request they quit or fire them. If you did not agree upon milestones (which a business with your funding should have.) You should still be paying him for the work done. Your disagreement over his work could cause his family to go hungry for a week. Such is the life of a contractor. All in all, perhaps both of you performed without much regard to ethic. He did a shoddy job and you refused to pay. But your running the business and as a result have a lot more to lose from a bad image. Just pay up and move on.

otakucode 12y ago
You mean as an employer I can't just use 'contractor' as a way to skirt paying payroll taxes, unemployment, workers comp, etc and then hire the cheapest dev I can find and refuse payment if the work isn't top notch? As far as I've been able to determine, as an employer I am entitled to software. I am entitled to workers who produce things that amplify the earnings of my company by an order of magnitude while paying just enough to keep the workers complacent. This is America, is it not? (note: This post has been sarcasm.)

edpichler 12y ago

You should do small projects to evaluate developers you hire.

omouse 12y ago

How many hours of this developers time did you take up? Refunds don't exist unless you're willing to go to court and if the work was actually damaging to your company. You took a risk and you have to pay for at least the time of the developer if not their skill (since it wasn't up to your expectations). In any case, you built the app from the scratch. The previous dev with their previous crappy code base can go cry somewhere else and stop making defamatory comments about your company.

webmaven 12y ago

"So we were left with no choice but to start from scratch with a new developer." In that case, the solution is simple. Tell them "We are not using the code you delivered to us in any form. You are welcome to keep it".

dominotw 12y ago

Clueless clients like these are freelancer's worst nightmare.

api 12y ago
I've turned down a number of freelance gigs just from getting this kind of "smell." It's not worth it. If I smell... umm... certain intimate hygiene products... I run away. Red flags I've seen include: * Smarmy-looking marketing materials. If I visit the site and think "hmm... would I be worried about downloading this app for fear it would infect my machine?" then that's a bad sign. * Some advance-marketing and extreme-MVP tactics are okay, but if they take it too far I see it as a red flag. * Intuition. If I could bottle it I would charge for it and be rich. Earned through school of hard knocks, which is as far as I know the only way to get this. * No haggling at all on price... especially when combined with other red flags. This leads me to think they're not haggling because they'll just stiff me. * No milestones or other metrics come up in discussion. * They don't know what they want. I've seen the screwage go both ways in contracting arrangements where the hiring party kind of just wants "something cool" with only some extremely vague sense of what it looks like. In either case it's not something I want to be a part of. * Shell company bingo... if I do a search on the founders and they have five dozen LLCs to their names it means they'll just fold the entity and stiff everyone if it doesn't work out. "Extend yourself on others' credit, test a market, and stiff people by busting out the shell if the market doesn't pan out" is a common sketchy business practice.

issa 12y ago

I once recorded a band. I thought we made a pretty good record, but they said they were unhappy and didn't want to pay me. Then they released the record. My point: this kind of thing isn't limited to software development. If you benefit from someone else's work, pay them.

marketingadvice 12y ago

Development is the same as any service, refunds don't really happen

DerpDerpDerp 12y ago

This post makes your company look considerably less professional than it otherwise would have, even leaving allegations about code theft unanswered. I might have been unsure if you were running copyrighted code, but now I know for sure you stiffed a programmer and are trying to cover your ass after the fact. As a professional consideration, I won't be using any of your services. Failing to pay an appropriate invoice for services rendered to you is a serious black mark for a company, particularly to people who depend on contract work to make a living. Finally: > Our agreement with the poster makes it clear that we own all work product produced pursuant to the agreement I suspect that this is only true in the event that you completely paid the programmer. Failing to do so likely invalidated the copyright transfer, which is standard language to include in a contract. I also suspect that the code you're currently running is not a clean rewrite, meaning that the next programmer based his code on that code and likely didn't remove literally every piece of it from the code base before starting. This very easily could have left your company with liability regarding the code you're no longer using, because the formation of your current code base depended integrally on violating the copyright of the programmer you didn't pay. I suspect you should just shut up and stop making a bigger deal of this in public, and that you should ask your lawyer point blank if the cost of fighting over the liability you might not have properly controlled will be cheaper than just paying the rest of the programmer's fee.

OzzyB 12y ago
> As a professional consideration, I won't be using any of your services Considering their product is to help prison inmates communicate -- I hope none of us get to use their services!
- hga 12y ago
  Well, you could be at the other end of the communications, their 4 word description is "Connecting Inmates to Society". In a "Three Felonies a Day" (http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594035229 http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/...) society the odds of your ending up in one or the other position are probably greater than you think, certainly greater than you hope.

nevinera 12y ago

Not that it's directly relevant to the claim, but 'work-for-hire' agreements do not directly to apply to most software. In particular, you cannot use a work-for-hire agreement to cause on-the-fly copyright transfer as code is written, you have to include in your contract a requirement about a separate copyright transfer. Here's a decent write-up I found: http://www.metrocorpcounsel.com/articles/9954/work-hire-doctrine-almost-never-works-software-development-contracts http://www.metrocorpcounsel.com/articles/9954/work-hire-doct... There's a separate point here though - your contractor wrote the code which you claim not to be using, but he most likely also did a great deal of software design - data modelling, layouts, behavioral descriptions, navigation, etc. If you are using any of that, you are still using his work. Legally speaking, even if he was as terrible a developer as you say, you are probably screwed for the money he was owed unless you had a lawyer write his contract with an eye toward not paying for poor work. That's just how contracting works.

korzun 12y ago

This is a shit storm. You had a D level agency write the code, then you consulted (apparently) B level players in technology field about this code. Obviously they will find issues with it. Hell I will find issues with anything if I really wanted to during a code audit. Without details it's all bull. Now, you are claiming you rewrote the code internally. Your LinkedIn shows a CTO that does not seem to have A level background and an software engineer who used to be a network technician prior to joining your company. Not A level team either. So I don't believe your claim that you rewrote it 'properly' after getting some sort of feedback from 'Founding' CakePHP member. There is no way you are entitled to do refund at this point. In my observation. Good luck.

_delirium 12y ago
> Now, you are claiming you rewrote the code internally. It's a little ambiguous, but by "start from scratch with a new developer", I interpreted that to mean they dumped the first contractor and hired a new contractor, not that they rewrote it internally.

socrates1998 12y ago

You used his code in some respects even if it wasn't in the final product. If nothing more, then you knew what not to do or what was difficult to do. Regardless, you probably should have paid him. It all depends on the nature of the contract. If it was for services and not for a completed project, then you absolutely needed to pay him. If it was for a completed and usable product, then you didn't have to pay him. Regardless, people here will think twice about working for you.

AndrewKemendo 12y ago

This seems like a terrible forum for both the original complaint and this response. There doesn't seem to be any good that can come for either side or the HN community.

reacweb 12y ago

If you ask for a refund, I think you do not own anymore the work of the "bad developer". If pigeonly platform has anything in common with the "bad code", you have a copyright problem. I think you should have asked a partial refund in order to keep property of the work done.

wernerb 12y ago

Like other comments, I wish, that unlike your accusers, you would not engage on the same level of public mudslinging as it will hurt you professionally. That said, there is a significant difference between paying someone and getting a refund, and not paying altogether. A better recourse would have been to go to court to get your payment back, and have independent professionals (as you already did yourself) grade the work completed. Note that in these cases the software is graded by its "peers" (average programmers), meaning that if the work is deemed "barely" acceptable, you will not see your money back. I hope you the best on this issue and also hope that hackernews will not be used as a platform for legal/code-theft arbitration in the future.

AJ007 12y ago

A lot of opinions and subjectivity in the comments here. This was a business to business transaction. What it said in the contract, and the jurisdiction that the contract fell under are about all that matter. Anyone in this business knows the grey area work for hire programming contracts fall under. (Depending on some legal opinions if it was "work-for-hire" it may be completely void as work-for-hire doesn't cover programming except under narrow cases.) Here one party has publicly received a large sum of money. Lawyers will look favorably on that upon taking cases. The programmers who feel they were wronged can then decide, should we wait a while? Will the company get more funding or will they go out of business? A worst case scenario would be that the original contract programmers are entitled to a large percentage of equity in this company. Whether or not the code is used today may not even matter. Another lesson here is to be careful who you work with. Make sure they can accomplish what you expect. It should be damn evident pretty quick when a developer is producing poor code (if it isn't, you shouldn't be in tech.) If you bake defaulting in to your business model, be careful. Individuals and small businesses remember getting screwed far longer than faceless corporations who will just sell your debt to a collections agency.

ianstallings 12y ago

There's actually already a public forum for this type of dispute. It's called a court room.

pnathan 12y ago

* Don't stiff people, ever. * Don't renege on agreements. * Don't play hardball with bit players. * Don't ask for refunds on contract work. You biffed it[1]. Suck it up, pay the guy his money, apologize for being a douche (maybe ask for a public acknowledgement of him receiving his money even), move on. [1] A good way to properly manage this sort of thing is to have milestones, on each milestone, evaluate the contract for a terminate/no-terminate point; if it's terminate, pay what's owed up to that point and tie the relationship off. Which, by the way, is not uncommon advice on the internet.

joshdotsmith 12y ago

This is exactly why you don't go 4 months with non-payment by a client. They stop paying? You stop working. Simple as that, and this whole issue could have been avoided. On the flip side, as an employer, this is why you should hire slowly and fire quickly. And if you're nontechnical, you better be sure that your contractor knows what they're doing.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

spacemanmatt 12y ago

This isn't even a software mistake. This is just a business risk error. The analogy I would apply is: If you've contracted a house to be built, you should make sure professional inspectors sign off on each critical stage before the next one proceeds, so you don't end up with a good house on top of a bad foundation.

zheshishei 12y ago

I did a bit of amateur sleuthing(googling) out of curiosity. First, let's lay out the hard facts: 1. The work-for-hire occurred at least two years ago. This would peg the time frame at roughly early-mid 2012. 2. Pigeonly started out as Fotopigeon, the photo sending portion of the company. Telepigeon was added at a much later date. 3. Pigeonly applied to the YCombinator Summer 2012 batch, but was rejected [1]. 4. Pigeonly entered the NewMe Accelerator as part of their Spring 2013 batch[2]. The equity stake that NewMe took was 4%[3]. Crunchbase lists the intial investment date at October 2012[7] 5. Pigeonly also received a $20000 investment in December 2012 from FIU AVCC as well as $10000 in services from New Frontier Nomads to build out a MVP[4]. 6. Frederick Hutson is placed in a work-release program in September 2011 and is released in March 2012[5]. 7. Hutson's budget prior to December 2012 was a minimum of $2500[5]. 8. From the article: "From the halfway house, he did not have any money, so he persuaded the photo company to do some coding for free." [5] 9. The developer claims Pigeonly fell behind on payments[6]. Now for the assumptions/conclusions: A. From #2 and #5 we can conclude that that the codebase in question is not in use today. B. Prior to October 2012, based upon #3, #4, #6 and #7, we can assume that the total amount of funding Pigeonly had was not substantially more than $X000. C. From #8, interpreting the identity of "the photo company" is impossible, but if we assume that it is the developer, then D follows. D. From #8, initial coding occurs while Hutson is in the work-release program ("halfway house"), pegging the date at some time between September 2011 and March 2012 (from #6) E. From B and D, it seems that #9 is plausible, if not probable. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=jparkside https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=jparkside [2] http://www.newmeaccelerator.com/2013/02/04/spring-2013-startups-announced/ http://www.newmeaccelerator.com/2013/02/04/spring-2013-start... [3] http://www.f6s.com/profile/38508 http://www.f6s.com/profile/38508 [4] http://avcc2012.fiu.edu/ http://avcc2012.fiu.edu/ (second image on the carousel) [5] http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/idea-mans-latest-inspiration-prison/2116555 http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/idea-mans-latest-... [6] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8227225 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8227225 [7] http://www.crunchbase.com/organization/pigeonly http://www.crunchbase.com/organization/pigeonly

throaway53261 12y ago

Once again... bit.ly/1qnBgi3

ossreality 12y ago

Gonna go out on a limb and assume that you're not a dev. Yep, just an idea guy who thinks dev is just hired labor. Cool.

aioprisan 12y ago

Guys, this will absolutely kill your chances to hire any good developers in the future. This is the kind of thing that you should not respond to publicly and pay your lawyers for instead. The number of technical mistakes you made in your post paints you in an even worse light, but at the end of the day it's a "he said, she said" situation, where we can't compare code bases on what was done, what the quality is, and how the code is currently used.