14 ms·

The CIA's Reckless Breach of Trust

184 points by lvevjo 12y ago

kyllo 12y ago
No surprises here, of course this is what happens when you create an agency whose mission is to lie, decieve, and break the law, and then give it limited oversight and almost unlimited funding. The CIA's entire history is just one scandal after another.
- secstate 12y ago
  nod What other agency can take explicit part in countless political coups around the world and come out non-the-worse-for-wear? [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#The_coup_and_CIA_records http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat... [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#Overview http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27%C3%A9... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Project [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Bolivia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Bolivia [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1949_Syrian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1949_Syrian_coup_d%27%C3%... And the list goes on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_re... What a tangled web we weave.
- Alupis 12y ago
  The CIA's charter forbids any domestic campaigns...
  - sobkas 12y ago
    It's only forbidden if you get caught.
  - sp332 12y ago
    Right, the FBI doesn't like the competition.
  - pessimizer 12y ago
    But defines "domestic" as something that never touches the internet, and never once does business with or makes a phone call to a foreign national.
  - joe_the_user 12y ago
    When a society codifies secrecy into the law, that society has opened the door to every kind of unraveling of the rule of law. We have gone from classified information to secret laws to who knows-what-all-else. Among many other possibilities, the CIA's character might have been secretly changed - with it's agents authorized to lie about this change. Such is the can of worms that "classified information" opens from the get-go.
  - CamperBob2 12y ago
    They have altered the charter. Don't even bother praying.
  - mikeash 12y ago
    And clearly that's working out just great.
  - dghf 12y ago
    "Oh, that's just the window-display charter. Our real, secret charter gives us unlimited power forever!" -- Boss to Agent Norbert in The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers. (Okay, that was the Federal Atomic Regulatory Taskforce rather than the CIA, but the principle holds.)
  - ajmurmann 12y ago
    They didn't mind when they drugged up people in SF as part of MKUltra.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  Of course, a mission like the CIA's does not exactly lend itself to strong oversight. The issues of which you speak, seem like inherent challenges to making effective yet responsible intelligence organizations, rather than just garden variety stupid choices.
  - kyllo 12y ago
    I agree that making an intelligence organization effective yet responsible is inherently challenging, but I also think that our government has made plenty of garden variety stupid choices w/r/t the CIA as well. At this point from a simple costs vs. benefits standpoint I just do not see how even having a CIA (or at least the Clandestine Service portion) is worth it. They have wasted probably billions of dollars on countless blunders over the decades. They constantly embarrass the State Department by lying to and stealing from our supposed allies, and getting caught doing it. And they get informants killed. Now they're spying on the US's own democratically elected representatives. Meanwhile, what imminent dangers to US security has the Clandestine Service ever prevented? How do they justify their own existence? The Cold War ended decades ago, I don't see how their mission is relevant anymore.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
dickinurass 12y ago
It's hilarious, if anyone else was caught infiltrating senate computers .. but the CIA f'n seriously they were trying to interfere with a torture investigation .. ridiculous where are the repercussions what country am I living in?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- shitlord 12y ago
  But nobody infiltrated senate computers to begin with...
higherpurpose 12y ago
How come nobody in the media is calling this treason? We're talking about a government agency hacking and spying on the US Senate. This is like a Will Smith movie plot about the government "bad guys". "Improper access"? Are you kidding me? I guess Manning was a fool for not "apologizing" for his "improper access". That would've definitely saved him. What's worse is that even after Feinstein accused them of hacking and spying, they still did it afterwards [1]. And if they get away with it now, they will most definitely continue to do it. [1] - https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140731/18065928080/cia-spying-senate-went-much-further-than-originally-reported.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140731/18065928080/cia-s...
- dmix 12y ago
  Well, technically it wasn't hacking or unauthorized computer access since the CIA originally set up the secure network: http://blog.erratasec.com/2014/07/no-cia-didnt-spy-on-other-computers.html#.U9tp3F0-Fuh.twitter http://blog.erratasec.com/2014/07/no-cia-didnt-spy-on-other-... Nonetheless this is a complete moral failure and power-abuse that is equally worthy of punishment. They were monitoring use of the network, then attempting to classify new information as it was being analyzed.
  - ceejayoz 12y ago
    Uh, it's still unauthorized even if they set it up. The DBA at a bank might have full access to the database, but if he uses it to siphon off Social Security numbers it'd be unauthorized access. Same thing here - they explicitly weren't supposed or authorized to access the network.
- krapp 12y ago
  It's not the media's purpose to declare something treason - doing so would make them look like partisan hacks.
  - scott_karana 12y ago
    How is this an issue of partisanship? This is the CIA hacking the Senate. It's not GOP vs Democrat or even Executive vs Judiciary vs Legislative. Besides, I think it can be entirely fair for newspapers to pose the question of "Is this tantamount to treason?", and let people decide for themselves.
jobu 12y ago
"The committee has been working since 2009 on a comprehensive history of the agency’s antiterror program during the George W. Bush administration" That makes it sound like the investigation is politically motivated, which I find disappointing. It seems highly likely that some of those practices continued under Obama, and if there's any hint of political leaning in an investigation like this then most people will just ignore it as more partisan bullshit.
- jkestner 12y ago
  Agreed that it will seem politically motivated, but if it actually sees the light of day, the report will beg questions of how these practices have been stopped by the current administration. Hopefully that leads to bipartisan reform, and not a bunch of shouting and precedent-building.
- opendais 12y ago
  > That makes it sound like the investigation is politically motivated, which I find disappointing. All congressional investigations are political motivated. That said, who cares if it helps the truth comes out? The mere fact that the CIA was willing to pull BS like this on their overseers: "The CIA, though, spied on what the staffers did on the system. This allowed the CIA to manipulate investigation. When the staffers found some particularly juicy bit of information, the CIA was able to yank it from the system and re-classify it so that the staffers couldn't use it. Before the final report was ready, the CIA was already able to set the political machine in motion to defend itself from the report." http://blog.erratasec.com/2014/07/no-cia-didnt-spy-on-other-computers.html#.U9vhh3VdWV6 http://blog.erratasec.com/2014/07/no-cia-didnt-spy-on-other-... Personally, I'm glad they did that if only so the general public is aware of the kind of BS the CIA pulls.
- mullingitover 12y ago
  > That makes it sound like the investigation is politically motivated, which I find disappointing. No, what's politically motivated was that the chain of command that authorized and enacted torture was never prosecuted. This is not just a simple violation, but a Grave Breach as defined in the Geneva Conventions. In an effort to avoid what would be an inevitable partisan shitstorm, the heinous acts committed by the CIA and authorized explicitly by the White House were whitewashed. This report was the only thing that remained in the arsenal to hold these perpetrators accountable, and the CIA was actively attempting to thwart its work.
secstate 12y ago
Well, I wrote my congressmen. What else can we possibly do? This is, however, a fucking travesty of justice. How can you possibly be caught committing a crime and have the higher-ups formally apologize, and say they wont do it again? This is high treason against the United States Senate. What the hell is wrong with this country? I feel like the US is one big democratic tease, pretending to be a bastion of free thought and high ideals. When in reality it's no different than any other relatively peaceful, horribly corrupt government that has ever existed. Reading a history of the Roman Republic and eventual Empire recently, I have a suspicion we're headed down pretty much the same path, simply with better access to current information. That could change everything. But it probably wont change anything.
- poof131 12y ago
  I sometimes wonder if we are in the mid to late republic. [1] I want to believe in the progress of the country, but sometimes it seems like stagnation since the 70s and that post WW2 may have been the zenith of the American Rebublic. The divide between military and civilian, the Tammany hall nature of D.C., the bread and circuses all around, our country has issues to fix. But, I believe that we are moving forward, the world more than just the US, by many measures: mortality [2], poverty [3], violence [4]. So, I hope that we are something different than the Roman Republic and can last longer as a republic. My greatest fear is a 1984 style of perpetual surveillance, doublethink and corporate slavery. Oh wait, we are already there ;) [1] - http://www.roman-empire.net/republic/laterep-index.html http://www.roman-empire.net/republic/laterep-index.html [2] - http://www.nber.org/digest/mar02/w8556.html http://www.nber.org/digest/mar02/w8556.html [3] - http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2013/04/17/remarkable-declines-in-global-poverty-but-major-challenges-remain http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2013/04/17/re... [4] - http://reason.com/archives/2012/01/11/the-decline-of-violence http://reason.com/archives/2012/01/11/the-decline-of-violenc...
- aaronblohowiak 12y ago
  > relatively peaceful [citation needed] The US has seldom had a decade of peace in its history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_United_...
jseip 12y ago
Pardon Snowden Now.
forgotAgain 12y ago
So we know from recent history that the US Justice Department thinks accessing a computer network without authorization is worth 35 years in prison. I was going to pose the question what the over / under line would be on charges for those members of the CIA who did this but then I realized that it would be a silly question. When it comes to the US Government the corollary of too big to fail is too powerful to jail.
- opendais 12y ago
  It was CIA computers accessed by the CIA. :)
TeMPOraL 12y ago
You know what's CIA's even more reckless breach of trust? Organizing fake vaccination campaigns[0]. Now the efforts with eradicating Polio in some parts of the world meet with resistance of people who don't trust the vaccination campaign isn't a cover for US clandestine operations[1]. Hard to blame them, to be honest. "The edict by the Islamic militants to ban immunization was in response to the CIA's setting up a fake hepatitis vaccination campaign in Pakistan." And now thanks to CIA stunts many dozen (if not hundreds) Polio workers got killed and we risk not being able to eradicate the disease. [0] - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vaccinations-osama-bin-ladens-dna http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vaccin... [1] - http://www.npr.org/blogs/goatsandsoda/2014/07/28/330767266/taliban-in-pakistan-derails-world-polio-eradication http://www.npr.org/blogs/goatsandsoda/2014/07/28/330767266/t...
- tomjen3 12y ago
  Shouldn't be difficult to fix. The programs should just be financed and controlled by Saudi Arabia or some other ME country.
  - makomk 12y ago
    The CIA subverted genuine local medical staff and used them their fake vaccination scheme. I don't think there's any way of convincing militant groups that vaccination workers aren't potential CIA spies at this point, at least not if they've got any sense.
  - scott_karana 12y ago
    > The programs should just be financed and controlled by Saudi Arabia or some other ME country. Hopefully a country that doesn't collude with the USA, since that'll hardly alleviate their suspicions. :-)
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    Shouldn't have to be fixed. This is fucking around with vaccinating kids. People should go to jail. One guy did go to jail and the US has been demanding his release. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/29/pakistan-bin-laden_n_3837880.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/29/pakistan-bin-laden_... http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2014/07/14/commentary/world-commentary/polios-comeback-laid-immunization-ruses/#.U9v0bdZUphE http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2014/07/14/commentary/wo...
farseer 12y ago
So now you know how it feels like to live in a banana republic?
- happyscrappy 12y ago
  While that may make you feel better about whatever country you happen to live in, if the most powerful nation in the history of the world qualifies as a banana republic then the phrase has no meaning.
state 12y ago
I recently read "Legacy of Ashes"[1]. If you're interested in the extremely long list of breaches of trust that the CIA is responsible for it's a great resource. [1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_of_Ashes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_of_Ashes
pasbesoin 12y ago
In this as other spheres of recent, catastrophic failure (i.e. the financial crisis): I'm down to saying to TPTB: "No jail? You fail." If Brennan can't be prosecuted for perjury, then a very public and (really) career-ending firing is in order. As for the Congress that has been soaking up these lies and dissemblance, well, if you're a U.S. citizen, don't forget to vote. Also in local elections, where candidates grow into future Congress-critters -- or used to, before they started simply buying their way in.
DanielBMarkham 12y ago
The nation needs an intelligence community. In the modern world, that's non-negotiable. But having said that, there are a few breaches of trust that warrant extreme action, and this is one of them. This isn't some low-level analyst using his pull to get out of a parking ticket. This is the executive branch of government running an intelligence operation against another branch of the government. There's no known universe in which this is anywhere near being acceptable. And even if you buy the lone wolf scenario thrown out here, it still means that the agency had an atmosphere in which it seemed okay to do this -- and it was done with little or no oversight. In fact, this is a much worse scenario, because it implies that lone wolves all over the agency are doing all sorts of things on their own initiative. God knows what. Congress, kicking and screaming, is going to have to grow a set of balls and publicly tear apart the intelligence apparatus again. We are probably going to need new constitutional amendments to address property rights and the idea of "personal papers" in the digital age. Computers are extensions of people's minds. They are not like music players or VCRs. Not at all. This whole mess has been an example of how the political class will put off making a decision that might involve risk as long as possible. I keep wondering what more has to come out, and how much is enough. Sadly, I think we're not there yet.
- sroerick 12y ago
  What do you think about the open intelligence movement?
  - DanielBMarkham 12y ago
    Never heard of it. The title sounds interesting.
    - ianstallings 12y ago
      Here is some more info on a figure behind the open source intelligence movement below. It's not just intelligence that they want to reform, it's the entire system. http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jun/19/open-source-revolution-conquer-one-percent-cia-spy http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/ju...
ajmurmann 12y ago
I am of the opinion that nothing is worse for a society than corrupt law enforcement of any kind. I am generally against death penalty, but think it should be applied for even minor breaches by law enforcement. If we cannot trust the people who are supposed to keep us save the entire system is broken.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
steveax 12y ago
And why isn't anyone calling for Brennan's head on a stick for lying about this? Really, I'm mystified.
shrnky 12y ago
"Bush derangement syndrome?" At some point during the Bush years the New York Times seems to have been hit with said syndrome and devolved into nothing more than another partisan rag. Bush is mentioned three times in the article. Guess how many times Obama is mentioned? Not once. The most powerful and influential person in this issue, Not Mentioned Once. So what if Bush implemented these policies. So what if by some miracle they were able to prosecute and convict him. We'd still have the status quo. Articles like the one above are the very reason I hold "The Paper of Record" in almost as low esteem as outlets such as Fox News.

184 points by lvevjo 12y ago

kyllo 12y ago

No surprises here, of course this is what happens when you create an agency whose mission is to lie, decieve, and break the law, and then give it limited oversight and almost unlimited funding. The CIA's entire history is just one scandal after another.

secstate 12y ago
nod What other agency can take explicit part in countless political coups around the world and come out non-the-worse-for-wear? [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#The_coup_and_CIA_records http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat... [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#Overview http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27%C3%A9... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Project [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Bolivia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Bolivia [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1949_Syrian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1949_Syrian_coup_d%27%C3%... And the list goes on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_re... What a tangled web we weave.
Alupis 12y ago
The CIA's charter forbids any domestic campaigns...
- sobkas 12y ago
  It's only forbidden if you get caught.
- sp332 12y ago
  Right, the FBI doesn't like the competition.
- pessimizer 12y ago
  But defines "domestic" as something that never touches the internet, and never once does business with or makes a phone call to a foreign national.
- joe_the_user 12y ago
  When a society codifies secrecy into the law, that society has opened the door to every kind of unraveling of the rule of law. We have gone from classified information to secret laws to who knows-what-all-else. Among many other possibilities, the CIA's character might have been secretly changed - with it's agents authorized to lie about this change. Such is the can of worms that "classified information" opens from the get-go.
- CamperBob2 12y ago
  They have altered the charter. Don't even bother praying.
- mikeash 12y ago
  And clearly that's working out just great.
- dghf 12y ago
  "Oh, that's just the window-display charter. Our real, secret charter gives us unlimited power forever!" -- Boss to Agent Norbert in The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers. (Okay, that was the Federal Atomic Regulatory Taskforce rather than the CIA, but the principle holds.)
- ajmurmann 12y ago
  They didn't mind when they drugged up people in SF as part of MKUltra.
sliverstorm 12y ago
Of course, a mission like the CIA's does not exactly lend itself to strong oversight. The issues of which you speak, seem like inherent challenges to making effective yet responsible intelligence organizations, rather than just garden variety stupid choices.
- kyllo 12y ago
  I agree that making an intelligence organization effective yet responsible is inherently challenging, but I also think that our government has made plenty of garden variety stupid choices w/r/t the CIA as well. At this point from a simple costs vs. benefits standpoint I just do not see how even having a CIA (or at least the Clandestine Service portion) is worth it. They have wasted probably billions of dollars on countless blunders over the decades. They constantly embarrass the State Department by lying to and stealing from our supposed allies, and getting caught doing it. And they get informants killed. Now they're spying on the US's own democratically elected representatives. Meanwhile, what imminent dangers to US security has the Clandestine Service ever prevented? How do they justify their own existence? The Cold War ended decades ago, I don't see how their mission is relevant anymore.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

dickinurass 12y ago

It's hilarious, if anyone else was caught infiltrating senate computers .. but the CIA f'n seriously they were trying to interfere with a torture investigation .. ridiculous where are the repercussions what country am I living in?

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
shitlord 12y ago
But nobody infiltrated senate computers to begin with...

higherpurpose 12y ago

How come nobody in the media is calling this treason? We're talking about a government agency hacking and spying on the US Senate. This is like a Will Smith movie plot about the government "bad guys". "Improper access"? Are you kidding me? I guess Manning was a fool for not "apologizing" for his "improper access". That would've definitely saved him. What's worse is that even after Feinstein accused them of hacking and spying, they still did it afterwards [1]. And if they get away with it now, they will most definitely continue to do it. [1] - https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140731/18065928080/cia-spying-senate-went-much-further-than-originally-reported.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140731/18065928080/cia-s...

dmix 12y ago
Well, technically it wasn't hacking or unauthorized computer access since the CIA originally set up the secure network: http://blog.erratasec.com/2014/07/no-cia-didnt-spy-on-other-computers.html#.U9tp3F0-Fuh.twitter http://blog.erratasec.com/2014/07/no-cia-didnt-spy-on-other-... Nonetheless this is a complete moral failure and power-abuse that is equally worthy of punishment. They were monitoring use of the network, then attempting to classify new information as it was being analyzed.
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  Uh, it's still unauthorized even if they set it up. The DBA at a bank might have full access to the database, but if he uses it to siphon off Social Security numbers it'd be unauthorized access. Same thing here - they explicitly weren't supposed or authorized to access the network.
krapp 12y ago
It's not the media's purpose to declare something treason - doing so would make them look like partisan hacks.
- scott_karana 12y ago
  How is this an issue of partisanship? This is the CIA hacking the Senate. It's not GOP vs Democrat or even Executive vs Judiciary vs Legislative. Besides, I think it can be entirely fair for newspapers to pose the question of "Is this tantamount to treason?", and let people decide for themselves.

jobu 12y ago

"The committee has been working since 2009 on a comprehensive history of the agency’s antiterror program during the George W. Bush administration" That makes it sound like the investigation is politically motivated, which I find disappointing. It seems highly likely that some of those practices continued under Obama, and if there's any hint of political leaning in an investigation like this then most people will just ignore it as more partisan bullshit.

jkestner 12y ago
Agreed that it will seem politically motivated, but if it actually sees the light of day, the report will beg questions of how these practices have been stopped by the current administration. Hopefully that leads to bipartisan reform, and not a bunch of shouting and precedent-building.
opendais 12y ago
> That makes it sound like the investigation is politically motivated, which I find disappointing. All congressional investigations are political motivated. That said, who cares if it helps the truth comes out? The mere fact that the CIA was willing to pull BS like this on their overseers: "The CIA, though, spied on what the staffers did on the system. This allowed the CIA to manipulate investigation. When the staffers found some particularly juicy bit of information, the CIA was able to yank it from the system and re-classify it so that the staffers couldn't use it. Before the final report was ready, the CIA was already able to set the political machine in motion to defend itself from the report." http://blog.erratasec.com/2014/07/no-cia-didnt-spy-on-other-computers.html#.U9vhh3VdWV6 http://blog.erratasec.com/2014/07/no-cia-didnt-spy-on-other-... Personally, I'm glad they did that if only so the general public is aware of the kind of BS the CIA pulls.
mullingitover 12y ago
> That makes it sound like the investigation is politically motivated, which I find disappointing. No, what's politically motivated was that the chain of command that authorized and enacted torture was never prosecuted. This is not just a simple violation, but a Grave Breach as defined in the Geneva Conventions. In an effort to avoid what would be an inevitable partisan shitstorm, the heinous acts committed by the CIA and authorized explicitly by the White House were whitewashed. This report was the only thing that remained in the arsenal to hold these perpetrators accountable, and the CIA was actively attempting to thwart its work.

secstate 12y ago

Well, I wrote my congressmen. What else can we possibly do? This is, however, a fucking travesty of justice. How can you possibly be caught committing a crime and have the higher-ups formally apologize, and say they wont do it again? This is high treason against the United States Senate. What the hell is wrong with this country? I feel like the US is one big democratic tease, pretending to be a bastion of free thought and high ideals. When in reality it's no different than any other relatively peaceful, horribly corrupt government that has ever existed. Reading a history of the Roman Republic and eventual Empire recently, I have a suspicion we're headed down pretty much the same path, simply with better access to current information. That could change everything. But it probably wont change anything.

poof131 12y ago
I sometimes wonder if we are in the mid to late republic. [1] I want to believe in the progress of the country, but sometimes it seems like stagnation since the 70s and that post WW2 may have been the zenith of the American Rebublic. The divide between military and civilian, the Tammany hall nature of D.C., the bread and circuses all around, our country has issues to fix. But, I believe that we are moving forward, the world more than just the US, by many measures: mortality [2], poverty [3], violence [4]. So, I hope that we are something different than the Roman Republic and can last longer as a republic. My greatest fear is a 1984 style of perpetual surveillance, doublethink and corporate slavery. Oh wait, we are already there ;) [1] - http://www.roman-empire.net/republic/laterep-index.html http://www.roman-empire.net/republic/laterep-index.html [2] - http://www.nber.org/digest/mar02/w8556.html http://www.nber.org/digest/mar02/w8556.html [3] - http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2013/04/17/remarkable-declines-in-global-poverty-but-major-challenges-remain http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2013/04/17/re... [4] - http://reason.com/archives/2012/01/11/the-decline-of-violence http://reason.com/archives/2012/01/11/the-decline-of-violenc...
aaronblohowiak 12y ago
> relatively peaceful [citation needed] The US has seldom had a decade of peace in its history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_United_...

jseip 12y ago

Pardon Snowden Now.

forgotAgain 12y ago

So we know from recent history that the US Justice Department thinks accessing a computer network without authorization is worth 35 years in prison. I was going to pose the question what the over / under line would be on charges for those members of the CIA who did this but then I realized that it would be a silly question. When it comes to the US Government the corollary of too big to fail is too powerful to jail.

opendais 12y ago
It was CIA computers accessed by the CIA. :)

TeMPOraL 12y ago

You know what's CIA's even more reckless breach of trust? Organizing fake vaccination campaigns[0]. Now the efforts with eradicating Polio in some parts of the world meet with resistance of people who don't trust the vaccination campaign isn't a cover for US clandestine operations[1]. Hard to blame them, to be honest. "The edict by the Islamic militants to ban immunization was in response to the CIA's setting up a fake hepatitis vaccination campaign in Pakistan." And now thanks to CIA stunts many dozen (if not hundreds) Polio workers got killed and we risk not being able to eradicate the disease. [0] - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vaccinations-osama-bin-ladens-dna http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vaccin... [1] - http://www.npr.org/blogs/goatsandsoda/2014/07/28/330767266/taliban-in-pakistan-derails-world-polio-eradication http://www.npr.org/blogs/goatsandsoda/2014/07/28/330767266/t...

tomjen3 12y ago
Shouldn't be difficult to fix. The programs should just be financed and controlled by Saudi Arabia or some other ME country.
- makomk 12y ago
  The CIA subverted genuine local medical staff and used them their fake vaccination scheme. I don't think there's any way of convincing militant groups that vaccination workers aren't potential CIA spies at this point, at least not if they've got any sense.
- scott_karana 12y ago
  > The programs should just be financed and controlled by Saudi Arabia or some other ME country. Hopefully a country that doesn't collude with the USA, since that'll hardly alleviate their suspicions. :-)
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  Shouldn't have to be fixed. This is fucking around with vaccinating kids. People should go to jail. One guy did go to jail and the US has been demanding his release. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/29/pakistan-bin-laden_n_3837880.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/29/pakistan-bin-laden_... http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2014/07/14/commentary/world-commentary/polios-comeback-laid-immunization-ruses/#.U9v0bdZUphE http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2014/07/14/commentary/wo...

farseer 12y ago

So now you know how it feels like to live in a banana republic?

happyscrappy 12y ago
While that may make you feel better about whatever country you happen to live in, if the most powerful nation in the history of the world qualifies as a banana republic then the phrase has no meaning.

state 12y ago

I recently read "Legacy of Ashes"[1]. If you're interested in the extremely long list of breaches of trust that the CIA is responsible for it's a great resource. [1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_of_Ashes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_of_Ashes

pasbesoin 12y ago

In this as other spheres of recent, catastrophic failure (i.e. the financial crisis): I'm down to saying to TPTB: "No jail? You fail." If Brennan can't be prosecuted for perjury, then a very public and (really) career-ending firing is in order. As for the Congress that has been soaking up these lies and dissemblance, well, if you're a U.S. citizen, don't forget to vote. Also in local elections, where candidates grow into future Congress-critters -- or used to, before they started simply buying their way in.

DanielBMarkham 12y ago

The nation needs an intelligence community. In the modern world, that's non-negotiable. But having said that, there are a few breaches of trust that warrant extreme action, and this is one of them. This isn't some low-level analyst using his pull to get out of a parking ticket. This is the executive branch of government running an intelligence operation against another branch of the government. There's no known universe in which this is anywhere near being acceptable. And even if you buy the lone wolf scenario thrown out here, it still means that the agency had an atmosphere in which it seemed okay to do this -- and it was done with little or no oversight. In fact, this is a much worse scenario, because it implies that lone wolves all over the agency are doing all sorts of things on their own initiative. God knows what. Congress, kicking and screaming, is going to have to grow a set of balls and publicly tear apart the intelligence apparatus again. We are probably going to need new constitutional amendments to address property rights and the idea of "personal papers" in the digital age. Computers are extensions of people's minds. They are not like music players or VCRs. Not at all. This whole mess has been an example of how the political class will put off making a decision that might involve risk as long as possible. I keep wondering what more has to come out, and how much is enough. Sadly, I think we're not there yet.

sroerick 12y ago
What do you think about the open intelligence movement?
- DanielBMarkham 12y ago
  Never heard of it. The title sounds interesting.
  - ianstallings 12y ago
    Here is some more info on a figure behind the open source intelligence movement below. It's not just intelligence that they want to reform, it's the entire system. http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jun/19/open-source-revolution-conquer-one-percent-cia-spy http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/ju...

ajmurmann 12y ago

I am of the opinion that nothing is worse for a society than corrupt law enforcement of any kind. I am generally against death penalty, but think it should be applied for even minor breaches by law enforcement. If we cannot trust the people who are supposed to keep us save the entire system is broken.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

steveax 12y ago

And why isn't anyone calling for Brennan's head on a stick for lying about this? Really, I'm mystified.

shrnky 12y ago

"Bush derangement syndrome?" At some point during the Bush years the New York Times seems to have been hit with said syndrome and devolved into nothing more than another partisan rag. Bush is mentioned three times in the article. Guess how many times Obama is mentioned? Not once. The most powerful and influential person in this issue, Not Mentioned Once. So what if Bush implemented these policies. So what if by some miracle they were able to prosecute and convict him. We'd still have the status quo. Articles like the one above are the very reason I hold "The Paper of Record" in almost as low esteem as outlets such as Fox News.