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> However, Belgian law makes it very difficult to put such a flexible schedule in a contract. Oh really? I'm not an expert on Belgian law here, but are they re

> However, Belgian law makes it very difficult to put such a flexible schedule in a contract. Oh really? I'm not an expert on Belgian law here, but are they really claiming they offered to pay people extra and/or give time off in lieu for optional overtime, but they didn't agree to it? Or is it just mandatory free overtime that is banned? Belgian law probably makes it hard to require employees to work more than reasonable hours for no extra reward or choice. Which is a good thing. If you want 24x7 support, you need to pay for 24x7 employees. This person is wishing they had the right to specify in a contract that your working hours are "whenever I call." Since they don't get that, I'm not surprised they didn't realise firing someone^W^W, sorry, "agree[ing] to terminate your collaboration" might make them stop responding beyond the call of duty. Also, I was reading something the other day that pointed out that, whilst seeing things in black and white reduces you to only two perspectives (moral and immoral), the attitude that everything is a shade of grey (and the implied attitude that this makes moral comparisons impossible) reduces you to a single perspective (amoral). If you think two perspectives is too few, how is going down to one perspective supposed to help?

ama729 12y ago
Like most European countries, they probably require to have a day team and a night team. Google has datacenter in Belgium[1], so it would be surprising it was "impossible". [1] http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2012/05/15/google-data-center-faq/ http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2012/05/15/googl...
- valarauca1 12y ago
  Google's company culture is a lot like Japanese work culture. Lie about your hours because its more honorable to claim you did more work in less time. I've seen a lot of googlers put in 60-70 hour weeks and claim it was 40.
  - deelowe 12y ago
    For hourly and contract employees that work in operations? You sure about that?
- waps 12y ago
  They don't. It is not a requirement. But if you want your employees to do overtime, you have to pay them either 50% more or 100% more, depending on whether it's "just" overtime or overtime during a time when they wouldn't have to work at all (weekends, official holidays, ...). The very short, very inaccurate summary is, you get 50% for outside of hours (after 19h, weekends). You get another 50% for working on weekends. And you get 50% for working on official holidays. Meaning you get 3x your normal hourly wage for working after 19h on Easter or Christmas for example. Needless to say, companies don't want to pay this, and will lie and cheat to get out from under this. Problem is, if they get sued, the maximum penalty is 2 years' wage, paid out on the spot, and it's up to the employee to decide whether to continue working there or not (if you fire an employee, and put down as reason that you've lost a court case against them, that's likely to result in another 2 years pay for the employee).
norswap 12y ago
I am Belgian, and why IANAL, your intuitions w.r.t. the law are seem to correspond to what I have heard.
bowlofpetunias 12y ago
Exactly, it's perfectly possible in any country, it's just that in most EU countries you have to pay for it. "hire people who share your passion, willing to 'volunteer'" In other words: this douche wants people to work for free.
- Fuxy 12y ago
  An unfortunate view most companies in Eastern European countries share. It is not uncommon to get fired for not voluntarily giving up your time or even weekend sometime although they won't tell you why you get fired it's pretty obvious. Happend to me a few times when i was young.
- alandarev 12y ago
  The exact reason I ran away from games based companies in UK.
  - collyw 12y ago
    I had heard rumours that they were bad to work for (yet they still get lots of smart nerdy kids applying). You heard the same, or actually worked for them?
    - alandarev 12y ago
      I had internship in a gaming company as a Software Engineer (internal systems, not games directly). Eventhough I did not do games, I was literally working in the same environment. In addition I have a small business in games industry, and am having plenty of stories of game developers. If you ask me, why such an abuse of staff? I believe it is the games - great opportunity of having endless pool of motivated and experienced youngsters. Just like a fashion journal for women.
NicoJuicy 12y ago
You have no idea how Belgium is. Inflexible , huge employer costs (highest costs in the world for employment),... Because of the taxes, employers don't want you to work extra hours and as an employee, you don't have much benefit of it (governement taxes that A LOT if you do overtime). Some things that are forbidden (or pay extra taxes) - Only normal hours (5 days a week, ...) - Don't employ people outside of their working schedule - forbidden to work on Sundays - forbidden to work on Holidays - Don't work at night But there are exceptions (but it's complicated)
- SixSigma 12y ago
  But those things should be forbidden and in the hands of the employee. That said, I have signed the "I will work more than 48 hours if required" waiver at my current employer; mostly because I know it will hardly happen and if it does it will be extra-ordinary and I will be willing to pull with the team. There's nothing wrong with a world where : "We need you to work this weekend" "No thanks, see you Monday" Is perfectly reasonable.
  - NicoJuicy 12y ago
    I'm an employee, it should also be my right to work more without the governement always taxing me extra. I want to work more, but i see no financial benefit from it for working a day in a weekend (eg. when i have a deadline), nor does my employer. PS. Overhours in Belgum don't get payed a lot or aren't encouraged because of the extra cost. Employees don't mind because their happy to have jobs here... But i shouldn't say that out loud, because it's illegal. But a lot of people work an hour / day for free (from my personal experience here in Belgium)
    - matthewmacleod 12y ago
      I'm an employee, it should also be my right to work more without the governement always taxing me extra. I want to work more, but i see no financial benefit from it for working a day in a weekend (eg. when i have a deadline), nor does my employer. I'm not sure I understand here. Surely if you're making more money, then you should expect to pay a portion of that in tax? And you'll see a financial benefit as a result?
rmc 12y ago
European Working Time Directive forbids more than a 48 hour working week. The UK has an opt out to that maximum. Sounds like this employer wants someone who can work 24x7, which y'know is illegal.

ama729 12y ago

Like most European countries, they probably require to have a day team and a night team. Google has datacenter in Belgium[1], so it would be surprising it was "impossible". [1] http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2012/05/15/google-data-center-faq/ http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2012/05/15/googl...

valarauca1 12y ago
Google's company culture is a lot like Japanese work culture. Lie about your hours because its more honorable to claim you did more work in less time. I've seen a lot of googlers put in 60-70 hour weeks and claim it was 40.
- deelowe 12y ago
  For hourly and contract employees that work in operations? You sure about that?
waps 12y ago
They don't. It is not a requirement. But if you want your employees to do overtime, you have to pay them either 50% more or 100% more, depending on whether it's "just" overtime or overtime during a time when they wouldn't have to work at all (weekends, official holidays, ...). The very short, very inaccurate summary is, you get 50% for outside of hours (after 19h, weekends). You get another 50% for working on weekends. And you get 50% for working on official holidays. Meaning you get 3x your normal hourly wage for working after 19h on Easter or Christmas for example. Needless to say, companies don't want to pay this, and will lie and cheat to get out from under this. Problem is, if they get sued, the maximum penalty is 2 years' wage, paid out on the spot, and it's up to the employee to decide whether to continue working there or not (if you fire an employee, and put down as reason that you've lost a court case against them, that's likely to result in another 2 years pay for the employee).

norswap 12y ago

I am Belgian, and why IANAL, your intuitions w.r.t. the law are seem to correspond to what I have heard.

bowlofpetunias 12y ago

Exactly, it's perfectly possible in any country, it's just that in most EU countries you have to pay for it. "hire people who share your passion, willing to 'volunteer'" In other words: this douche wants people to work for free.

Fuxy 12y ago
An unfortunate view most companies in Eastern European countries share. It is not uncommon to get fired for not voluntarily giving up your time or even weekend sometime although they won't tell you why you get fired it's pretty obvious. Happend to me a few times when i was young.
alandarev 12y ago
The exact reason I ran away from games based companies in UK.
- collyw 12y ago
  I had heard rumours that they were bad to work for (yet they still get lots of smart nerdy kids applying). You heard the same, or actually worked for them?
  - alandarev 12y ago
    I had internship in a gaming company as a Software Engineer (internal systems, not games directly). Eventhough I did not do games, I was literally working in the same environment. In addition I have a small business in games industry, and am having plenty of stories of game developers. If you ask me, why such an abuse of staff? I believe it is the games - great opportunity of having endless pool of motivated and experienced youngsters. Just like a fashion journal for women.

NicoJuicy 12y ago

You have no idea how Belgium is. Inflexible , huge employer costs (highest costs in the world for employment),... Because of the taxes, employers don't want you to work extra hours and as an employee, you don't have much benefit of it (governement taxes that A LOT if you do overtime). Some things that are forbidden (or pay extra taxes) - Only normal hours (5 days a week, ...) - Don't employ people outside of their working schedule - forbidden to work on Sundays - forbidden to work on Holidays - Don't work at night But there are exceptions (but it's complicated)

SixSigma 12y ago
But those things should be forbidden and in the hands of the employee. That said, I have signed the "I will work more than 48 hours if required" waiver at my current employer; mostly because I know it will hardly happen and if it does it will be extra-ordinary and I will be willing to pull with the team. There's nothing wrong with a world where : "We need you to work this weekend" "No thanks, see you Monday" Is perfectly reasonable.
- NicoJuicy 12y ago
  I'm an employee, it should also be my right to work more without the governement always taxing me extra. I want to work more, but i see no financial benefit from it for working a day in a weekend (eg. when i have a deadline), nor does my employer. PS. Overhours in Belgum don't get payed a lot or aren't encouraged because of the extra cost. Employees don't mind because their happy to have jobs here... But i shouldn't say that out loud, because it's illegal. But a lot of people work an hour / day for free (from my personal experience here in Belgium)
  - matthewmacleod 12y ago
    I'm an employee, it should also be my right to work more without the governement always taxing me extra. I want to work more, but i see no financial benefit from it for working a day in a weekend (eg. when i have a deadline), nor does my employer. I'm not sure I understand here. Surely if you're making more money, then you should expect to pay a portion of that in tax? And you'll see a financial benefit as a result?

rmc 12y ago

European Working Time Directive forbids more than a 48 hour working week. The UK has an opt out to that maximum. Sounds like this employer wants someone who can work 24x7, which y'know is illegal.