10 ms·

Dart: The World's Smallest Laptop Adapter

188 points by stoev 13y ago

sp332 13y ago
Wow, that got to market quickly!
- stoev 13y ago
  Not yet, apparently they will start shipping in about six months.
51Cards 13y ago
US Only. Insert my sad face here. Canada gets no love... sigh.
- ama729 13y ago
  It actually does, check the FAQ at the bottom, it was a mistake on their end.
  - 51Cards 13y ago
    Wonderful, thanks! Off to spend some money.
- pedalpete 13y ago
  You mean North America only, they'll ship internationally, but I don't see anything about other plug types :(
  - yskchu 13y ago
    Plug included: Pledge $130 or more Global Dart: You live abroad and you want a Dart. This reward is for you. The Dart will work internationally, but you'll need a plug to match your outlet. This reward includes the Dart PLUS a plug adapter for your region. Your Dart, your color holds for this offer. Choose your favorite from among our signature Kickstarter colors. Please note the later estimated delivery date. Not MacBook compatible. Shipping is included. Estimated delivery: Mar 2015
    - kijin 13y ago
      Imagine what that thing will look like with a gigantic UK plug adapter ;) Moreover, the North American ungrounded plug is one of the easiest plugs in the world to pull out of a socket. So if I plug Dart into a adapter for any other part of the world, plug the adapter into a socket, and then try to pull it back out, Dart will separate from the adapter and leave the adapter in the socket. It happens all the time when American electronics are used abroad, and it's extremely annoying.
    - Svip 13y ago
      Gee. So they will just add a plug adapter? They won't actually make a Dart with an E-plug? That sort of ruins the thing for me, particularly considering a plug adapter plus a power adapter in a wall outlet is asking for all sorts of trouble. I've barely had success with plugs that weren't this heavy.
stoev 13y ago
I've been thinking about the overweight (and overpriced) laptop adapters for a while and reading about this project made me very happy. Could anyone suggest some scientific reading on their claimed very high frequency power conversion (or any similar technology)?
- sp332 13y ago
  It's pretty recent. This is a good overview (especially page 2) http://www.powerpulse.net/powerViews.php?pv_id=48&page=1 http://www.powerpulse.net/powerViews.php?pv_id=48&page=1
  - stoev 13y ago
    Thanks. I read that, but was hoping that I could get more detailed information somewhere.
    - sp332 13y ago
      Well, there's always the patent itself :) http://patents.justia.com/patent/8542509 http://patents.justia.com/patent/8542509
    - stoev 13y ago
      That's better, cheers.
somid3 13y ago
I've know this team for some time (also an MIT grad). I'm so happy they have pushed their product and have moved to the Bay Area. The Dart might look like a small device but its an incredible feat -- specially since it needs to safely work with all laptops and devices. Very excited about the future of the product.
cliveowen 13y ago
Looks like it'll only work on US outlets, so it's unfit for most of the world.
- Jtsummers 13y ago
  > Global Dart: You live abroad and you want a Dart. This reward is for you. The Dart will work internationally, but you'll need a plug to match your outlet. This reward includes the Dart PLUS a plug adapter for your region. Your Dart, your color holds for this offer. Choose your favorite from among our signature Kickstarter colors. Please note the later estimated delivery date. Not MacBook compatible. Shipping is included. (Emphasis added) It seems this is in fact fit for most of the world.
  - cliveowen 13y ago
    If you have to resort to an adapter you lose the main proposition (the small form factor), so the point remains.
    - smackfu 13y ago
      Making the power adapter longer also makes it more prone to fall out of the wall, especially with Euro style plugs.
    - joezydeco 13y ago
      A plug adapter doesn't have to be as large as a transformer. http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/theshorelinemarket_2310_643977735 http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/theshorelinemarket_2310_643977735 Inelegant? Sure. Large? No.
      - kijin 13y ago
        That only works in continental Europe, South Korea, and a handful of other countries that use the CEE7 (Europlug) standard. In the UK, the plug adapter is going to be twice as big as Dart: https://www.google.com/search?q=uk%20plug&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=uk%20plug&tbm=isch
AceJohnny2 13y ago
This looks like a great and promising product. At the headline, I had the kneejerk doubt that they could fit laptop-level power in such a small adapter, but they claim that's exactly why their product is interesting. Nevertheless, I'm going to wait for the first wave to prove itself and for them to iron the kinks out (there are always kinks in a first-gen HW product). As such, I hope this is a true "kickstarter" that starts company momentum and isn't, like too many others, a one-shot deal.
- robobro 13y ago
  It's a bit pricey, too.
slg 13y ago
One word of warning, the product timeline says you should expect your product in 7-11 months. That is a long time when you are talking about device compatibility. All Kickstarters have risks, but buying an accessory for a device that may not even exist yet is a larger than normal gamble. There were plenty of Kickstarters for iPhone accessories that didn't arrive until after they were already obsoleted by the lightning cable. Will this work on your next laptop? Probably. Can the Dart team guarantee that the device will "work with all major PC brands" manufactured in the next year? Probably not. Is that risk worth the extra money you save on a pre-order? That is up to you to decide.
- x1024 13y ago
  Note that it powers a usb device. Every single iOS device and every Android device that I know of have a USB on one end of the cable. Also, is anyone really innovating in Laptops these days? Is there a reasonable expectation that something like "A new type of charger" can even happen in the next 12-24 months?
  - nostromo 13y ago
    It powers one usb port and a laptop. Nobody is buying it just for the usb port; it's bigger and more expensive than existing usb outlets.
- stoev 13y ago
  I don't think that there is much that the major PC brands can do to prevent the device from powering their future devices. However, you are right that a certain a certain amount of risk exists and I don't think that one would actually save a lot of money by ordering early. Given that they use no custom electrical components (according to the project description), $89 seems like quite a hefty price. I assume that by the time the device is mass produced its price will be lower due to pressure from competitors.
- userbinator 13y ago
  Unless some radical change happens to laptop power supplies in the next few months - a change from designs that have remained the same for over a decade - it's very likely this adapter will work with the newest (normal) laptops available when it comes out. Also, laptops have very flexible power input circuits that will accept a wide range of DC input: they'll start running from ~12V (the voltage of an almost-dead battery), and go as high as the voltage specs on the input components allows - 25V (filter caps) is the usual absolute upper limit. Higher voltage means lower I^2R losses but manufacturers like to leave some safety margin, which is why 20V is somewhat of a de-facto standard given the parts available. The general power distribution circuits in a laptop are like this: there's a main power rail, whose voltage varies with battery voltage when running on battery, and is the DC-IN voltage with the adapter plugged in. The voltages for the CPU, GPU, chipset, etc. are all generated by DC-DC converters supplied from this main rail. There's a set of diodes/MOSFETs that wire-OR together the battery and DC-IN to the main rail, preventing current flow in the wrong direction. It also powers the battery charger. I've read a lot of laptop schematics, and all of them use very similar power circuitry, often with the same components. The only real concern with device compatibility is in the ID schemes that some manufacturers use, either to "lock out" third party adapters or encode wattage selection. The simplest ones are nothing more than a resistor in the plug, different values for different wattages (IBM/Lenovo is one example). More complex ones use a 1-wire interface to an EEPROM or other storage element (Dell, Apple) (http://www.laptop-junction.com/toast/content/dell-ac-power-adapter-id-chip-died http://www.laptop-junction.com/toast/content/dell-ac-power-a... http://www.righto.com/2013/06/teardown-and-exploration-of-magsafe.html http://www.righto.com/2013/06/teardown-and-exploration-of-ma... ). Then there's all the others that have no ID at all, just +/- input, and these are the most compatible. About the Dart itself: the technology used here (VHF SMPS) has been around for a long time in military/aerospace applications, where size/weight is more important than reducing switching losses. http://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/vhf-laptop-power-supply/ http://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/vhf-lapto...
brianbreslin 13y ago
Sadly this isn't directly Apple compatible. It says the mac version they buy an off the shelf apple power adapter and then connect them for you or something. I guess the magsafe connector is patented? I would hope Apple was working on a smaller power brick, its kind of silly when my power adapter is almost as heavy as my Macbook Air 13". yeah, i know #firstworldproblems
- megablast 13y ago
  Not sure what adapter you are using, but the one that ships with the 2012 or 2013 air is tiny and very light.
dotBen 13y ago
To get around the Apple patent, they should have made the device compatible with a cigaratte lighter socket or the old-school plane power socket, which would enable customers to buy the official Apple Travel Adapter. This is how HyperJuice has done it. Additionally, If you have a MacBook Air it doesn't seem significantly enough smaller than the 45W MBA power brick - not to justify the higher price, anyway. UPDATE: meant 45W, not 65W, corrected
- uncoder0 13y ago
  My Air came with a 45W power brick which is even smaller than the 65W.
- rcthompson 13y ago
  Which Apple patent is this? The Magsafe thing for the end that attaches to the computer?
  - userbinator 13y ago
    Yes, their magnetic power connector is patented. US7311526. (Not that it ever stopped the Chinese who have had magnetic power connectors on their electric kettles and skillets for years before Macbooks even existed from cloning it, but that's a different story...)
    - r00fus 13y ago
      Your throwaway remark is ridiculous - a quick visual comparison will show you that they're completely different interfaces designed for different products.
      - zhemao 13y ago
        Here is the actual patent. http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=7311526.PN.&OS=PN/7311526&RS=PN/7311526 http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=... > An electrical plug and receptacle relying on magnetic force to maintain contact are disclosed. The plug and receptacle can be used as part of a power adapter for connecting an electronic device, such as a laptop computer, to a power supply. The plug includes electrical contacts, which are preferably biased toward corresponding contacts on the receptacle. The plug and receptacle each have a magnetic element. The magnetic element on one or both of the plug and receptacle can be a magnet, which is preferably a permanent rare earth magnet although electromagnets may also be used. The magnetic element on the plug or receptacle that does not include a magnet is composed of ferromagnetic material. When the plug and receptacle are brought into proximity, the magnetic attraction between the magnet and its complement, whether another magnet or a ferromagnetic material, maintains the contacts in an electrically conductive relationship. What part of that abstract doesn't also describe the magnetic connector on a Japanese electric water kettle?
kubiiii 13y ago
Very nice product. I have an (fairly) old compaq laptop with a built in adapter and even though its heavier than it should be, pluging the cable is a delight. I use the HN facebook feed (yes I do) and there is no direct link on it, just the video (maybe specific to KS?). Also the music in the video is distracting. It is way overcompressed.
beambot 13y ago
Best way to get me to buy one... Let Ken Shirriff do a teardown. He's done some amazing work analyzing various AC-DC adaptors [1-2]. [1] http://www.righto.com/2012/10/a-dozen-usb-chargers-in-lab-apple-is.html http://www.righto.com/2012/10/a-dozen-usb-chargers-in-lab-ap... [2] http://www.righto.com/2012/05/apple-iphone-charger-teardown-quality.html http://www.righto.com/2012/05/apple-iphone-charger-teardown-...
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- gcb0 13y ago
  couldn't agree more. But besides efficiency, i'd also like to see RF interference measurements on this one. There is a reason good power converters are fixed in one voltage output and use transformers...
  - drakaal 13y ago
    High. VHF AC to DC conversion isn't in many devices because it is actually hard to get it to not cause issues with everything else on the same transformer (not even breaker). Also you notice they use a lighter wire than most laptop power supplies would and no ferro loop at the end to reduce the noise to the device. Maybe I missed it, but I don't think I saw a UL approval on the device. I also don't think there is enough room in the case to have a thermal cut out, and a fuse/breaker. Which you really need on a power supply. I'd love to be wrong on all this. I hate carrying a brick (though mine is about the size of half a deck of cards).
    - snops 13y ago
      Thermal fuses are actually pretty small, this one (which is pretty representative): http://uk.farnell.com/nte-electronics/nte8065/fuse-thermal-cutoff-10a-250v-axial/dp/2192420 http://uk.farnell.com/nte-electronics/nte8065/fuse-thermal-c... is about the size of a 1/4W resistor at 12mm long. A fuse isn't too big either, this 0402 fuse: http://uk.farnell.com/te-connectivity-raychem/dp/1843788 http://uk.farnell.com/te-connectivity-raychem/dp/1843788 is rated at 4A and is only 1mm long! The real thing for size is the transformer and other magnetics, which decrease with frequency, hence why this uses VHF frequencies. Output filters can also be made smaller at higher frequencies, and Ken Shirriff's iPhone charger teardown above shows a small ferrite ring _inside_ the charger case for high frequencies. UL Approval is probably under on the "Production Timeline" (2/3rds down) under "Submit for initial regulatory certification (4 months)", which is set to begin now (Apr-May). As for the wire thickness, it doesn't seem that much thinner than my Macbook Charger, which is also 65W. The production timeline on the kickstarter leaves them time to change to a thicker one. The big question of course, is the feasibility of the VHF AC-DC conversion. FINsix have a paper (http://finsix.com/assets/files/FINsix_Tech.pdf http://finsix.com/assets/files/FINsix_Tech.pdf) but its not very long or detailed, and I don't know enough to criticise it if it was.
yoamro 13y ago
Great product. Cant help but feel this will be extremely losable, if consumers are anything like me..
xexers 13y ago
I wonder about vampire power usage. If I leave it plugged in to the wall, but not into my laptop, how much power does it consume.
beggi 13y ago
This looks legit backed by MIT patents and grad students, but I wonder why a group making this "breakthrough" is going directly to Kickstarter to raise hundreds of thousands of dollars, instead of selling the technology directly to companies like Apple or Samsung and make tens of millions of dollars.
- stoev 13y ago
  Because it is a lot easier to attract new customers and do a free PR campaign this way. It doesn't prevent them from selling the technology later on.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  Because Kickstarter is used to get the resource to accelerate the business which they may well eventually sell to Apple or Samsung for far more than they raise from kickstarter. (See, e.g., Oculus Rift.)
  - probably_wrong 13y ago
    That's a fairly cynical and negative point of view that goes against the core ideas on which Kickstarter was created. And yet, there's a high chance that you are 100% right. I find it sad that we'll have to always consider that particular scenario from now on. Stupid Facebook.
    - stoev 13y ago
      Kickstarter's core goal was to help inventors bring their ideas to life and help them fund initial production. It has since evolved into a platform that often helps their most engaged users find new ideas and get early access to new technology. Both of these processes benefit from one another, so I don't think that "it goes against the core ideas on which Kickstarter was created".
    - dragonwriter 13y ago
      > That's a fairly cynical and negative point of view that goes against the core ideas on which Kickstarter was created. I don't think it really does. Kickstarter is expressly a way of getting resources people interested in offerings to launch them when the funds to start the to launch the offering wouldn't otherwise be available, in order to create sustainable businesses that would otherwise not get started because of lack of access to funds to start them. Obviously, one of the very common things to do with a viable business once it is running -- and one that maximizes the return for people who are best at (or most interested in) launching things -- is to establish the business, sell it to someone interested in running it for the long term, and use the proceeds to start more things. While particular exits might bother some people, I don't see how its contrary to the core ideas on which Kickstarter was created, or a sad thing. People who are well suited to getting the ball started on something aren't always best suited for later stages.
Dorian-Marie 13y ago
200$ for "Global Dart for MacBook", that's a lot for a charger
colindean 13y ago
I saw this at CES and it was one of the very few products I saw the entire event that made me say, "I want to invest in this company." I wanted to take one home! Coverage I helped write: http://www.thinkcomputers.org/finsix-shrinks-laptop-power-bricks-to-pocket-size/ http://www.thinkcomputers.org/finsix-shrinks-laptop-power-br...
raverbashing 13y ago
Good they're thinking about the regulatory needs But I doubt they'll make do without the ferrite core. The smaller the device is, it usually means more interference being generated, and the higher frequencies make it more complicated.
- nraynaud 13y ago
  there are 2 things made of ferrite in an adapter, for different reasons. There is a ferrite ring around the input cable so that EMI don't go upstream in the socket, and this one they will probably keep. The other one is the core of the transformer and they say they don't need it at that frequency.
zobzu 13y ago
not sure how using a better switching regulator is "patentable" but then again... main reason for chargers to be bulky is costs (nobody "cares" when they buy the laptop, they only realize later..), not technology. other than that it's dearly needed for many.
nouveaux 13y ago
I know this is Hacker News and we love startups, but I think this would have been a better licensing play. It just doesn't seem like its a good business model to try and create all these adapters for old and new laptops. That compatibility list looks really annoying from a consumer standpoint. Its just not something I want to look up every time I'm in the market for a new laptop.
- rhizome 13y ago
  That's just for now. From the looks of the laptop connection they're angling for a buyout/license from iGo, who already makes a zillion nub-ends just like theirs.
pacofvf 13y ago
But.. but.. Canada and Mexico use the same socket/voltage, we have to buy the global edition anyway?
gamache 13y ago
I am left wondering what's novel/patent-worthy about a VHF power converter. It sounds like an incremental improvement on current systems (which typically operate in the 100kHz-1MHz range), and the link in the Kickstarter doesn't have much substance to it. Anyone know what I am missing?
- goldbeck 13y ago
  According to the company's website, their tech gets them up to the 30-300MHz range. http://finsix.com/power-platform/#section-frequency-innovation http://finsix.com/power-platform/#section-frequency-innovati...
- gaze 13y ago
  Parasitics
tdicola 13y ago
Very polished kickstarter but I'm left wondering, do I really need an $80-$200 charger? The MacBook air charger is already pretty small and my phone lasts all day without the need to recharge. Although the tech inside it might be novel and interesting I really don't see the cost vs benefit as a consumer.
- mschuster91 13y ago
  My Acer netbook comes with a lightweight but still bulky-as-fxxk charger...
zan2434 13y ago
This looks like a funded, experienced, hardware team with an already finished product. Are they only using Kickstarter for exposure? If they're looking for validation/upfront manufacturing costs they should be doing pre-orders instead of "crowdfunding"
- SoftwareMaven 13y ago
  Please define the difference in this context, especially looking at the funding rewards.
  - Xylakant 13y ago
    Pre-Order gives you a right to obtain the product or at least get some money back in case the company folds and there are assets left, usually even before the investors see any money. You're a customer. Kickstarter gives you "you're a backer" and in case the company folds you get nothing.
    - jessaustin 13y ago
      That might be an argument against Kickstarter in general, but it isn't a good criticism of any particular use of Kickstarter, especially of one like this which appears highly likely to succeed in producing the promised product.
      - Xylakant 13y ago
        I think it's even a better criticism of this particular case: If this kickstarter really has such a low risk of failure, why don't the investors bear that risk and go for preorders?
        jessaustin 13y ago
        As a consumer I would rather the investors expose me to a tiny risk than a huge risk. Would you really prefer the converse?
hippich 13y ago
Too bad my laptop requires 240W power adapter :)
- TheLoneWolfling 13y ago
  240W? How much battery life do you get? Half an hour?
  - hippich 13y ago
    with normal usage - 4.5 hours. But if I run something in dGPU - I can burn through battery in like an hour. Under windows they told it will get better battery life mostly because of better drivers support. But I never tested it. This is Dell Precision M6600. This one and most other Precisions will consume similar amount of power from PSU. Not sure why all the downvotes. Even MacBook Pro I have requires 85W
Khao 13y ago
Shouldn't a power adapter like that be grounded?
- Xylakant 13y ago
  Apple power adapters are not grounded if you use the short plug (the cable is grounded) and they supply up to 85W. You sometimes get the slight tingly feeling when touching the case.
- TheLoneWolfling 13y ago
  My laptop power supply isn't grounded. I assume that there is a good reason for this.
- jarek 13y ago
  Anecdote: I've been using ungrounded (two-prong) genuine Thinkpad power adapters for close to a decade now with no issues.
- nraynaud 13y ago
  it's not mandatory in most countries for various reasons. The most simple one is that none of failures modes of the adapters connect the main to the laptop without doing a short first (unless you bought a fake one in which case all the bets are off).
- McGuffin 13y ago
  It's pretty common for power adapters to be double insulated. Which in a way is very useful if you're traveling in e.g. continental Europe, where you can just buy a two prong "europlug" cable to use instead of the NEMA one which fits in sockets of varying design.
wtracy 13y ago
I would like to see exact dimensions of this thing. All I see on the page is "2.5 cubic inches".
deleted 13y ago
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pud 13y ago
Give it a retractable cord and I'm sold.
ajb 13y ago
Sticks a long way out of the wall. How much, lest's see: the size is given in cubic inches, how useful - not. It's also only 50% of the size of my current adapter, not a quarter, although to be fair, that one is only 33W. Does have a UK plug though! Dart plus plug adapter is probably no smaller.
derengel 13y ago
Its funny how they show it most of the time without the cable.
Theodores 13y ago
I can't see many British people queuing up to pay for this - it has the wrong plug on it!
IvyMike 13y ago
As someone who's travelled a lot, this looks like a cool upgrade. But man, what I wouldn't give for an adapter that make it easy to pack by having some clever and clean way to wrap the cord. It doesn't look like this one does.
neil_s 13y ago
Wait so what's the advantage of this over the free adapter your laptop came with? It says its smaller, and yes it does look marginally smaller (not enough to make a difference to me personally), but is that it? You can charge another USB device with it, but my Surface Pro charger offers that too. Am I missing some other USP that would make it worth buying this as an upgrade? I can see this being useful when licensed to laptop manufacturers, but not as an aftermarket upgrade.
- witty_username 13y ago
  Me too. I see that it has some new technology; but the benefits don't seem that much. Can the downvoters explain?
ytjohn 13y ago
This looks very much like the Rommoss car charger. I have one for my laptop. This gets its source from 12V DC instead of AC, but the rest works the same. Usb port and automatic voltage sensing circuitry. You just need a specific cable for whatever you're charging. Plug in a standard usb cable to charge your phone, you get 5V. Plug in an adapter cable for your Dell laptop, get the desired 19V (or whatever your laptop needs). http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Portable-Charger-Charging-Latitude/dp/B008QV0AF0 http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Portable-Charger-Charging-La...
jebblue 13y ago
Good idea but the implementation is gravity challenged which will wear the plugs and the sockets used over time. It would be better to reduce the length and get it closer to the socket.
balladeer 13y ago
I am not sure it's just me, or few more, or many more, but after Oculus VR I doubt I'll crowd-fund almost anything other than charity.
deleted 13y ago
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macco 13y ago
I don't get it. Do they really solve a problem? I have a pretty nice laptop adapter, that is light and about twice the size of Dart. I is perfectly fine for me.
AndrewDucker 13y ago
I'm looking forward to seeing what improvements happen once there's a laptop charging standard: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2319855/eu-pushes-for-a-single-laptop-charger-standard http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2319855/eu-pushes-f...
chx 13y ago
Right now the smallest laptop adapter; also has no AC cord; is the http://www.fsplifestyle.com/product.php?LID=1&PSN=771 http://www.fsplifestyle.com/product.php?LID=1&PSN=771 FSP Twinkle. It's the same 19V 65W adapter this one claims to be. It's made by a reputable power supply maker. While I applaud smaller and lighter adapters I would be extremely wary of an unknown startup meddling with power supplies. Also, regulatory approval is hell and while they do mention it among the risks I am also wary of that. I will pass this Kickstarter...
cordite 13y ago
> Dart for MacBook costs us an additional $79 Apple sure doesn't like to make it easy for third parties to be physically compatible with them.
graywh 13y ago
I'd love to be able to send in my old Macbook power adapters with frayed cords to save $79 on the connector.

188 points by stoev 13y ago

sp332 13y ago

Wow, that got to market quickly!

stoev 13y ago
Not yet, apparently they will start shipping in about six months.

51Cards 13y ago

US Only. Insert my sad face here. Canada gets no love... sigh.

ama729 13y ago
It actually does, check the FAQ at the bottom, it was a mistake on their end.
- 51Cards 13y ago
  Wonderful, thanks! Off to spend some money.
pedalpete 13y ago
You mean North America only, they'll ship internationally, but I don't see anything about other plug types :(
- yskchu 13y ago
  Plug included: Pledge $130 or more Global Dart: You live abroad and you want a Dart. This reward is for you. The Dart will work internationally, but you'll need a plug to match your outlet. This reward includes the Dart PLUS a plug adapter for your region. Your Dart, your color holds for this offer. Choose your favorite from among our signature Kickstarter colors. Please note the later estimated delivery date. Not MacBook compatible. Shipping is included. Estimated delivery: Mar 2015
  - kijin 13y ago
    Imagine what that thing will look like with a gigantic UK plug adapter ;) Moreover, the North American ungrounded plug is one of the easiest plugs in the world to pull out of a socket. So if I plug Dart into a adapter for any other part of the world, plug the adapter into a socket, and then try to pull it back out, Dart will separate from the adapter and leave the adapter in the socket. It happens all the time when American electronics are used abroad, and it's extremely annoying.
  - Svip 13y ago
    Gee. So they will just add a plug adapter? They won't actually make a Dart with an E-plug? That sort of ruins the thing for me, particularly considering a plug adapter plus a power adapter in a wall outlet is asking for all sorts of trouble. I've barely had success with plugs that weren't this heavy.

stoev 13y ago

I've been thinking about the overweight (and overpriced) laptop adapters for a while and reading about this project made me very happy. Could anyone suggest some scientific reading on their claimed very high frequency power conversion (or any similar technology)?

sp332 13y ago
It's pretty recent. This is a good overview (especially page 2) http://www.powerpulse.net/powerViews.php?pv_id=48&page=1 http://www.powerpulse.net/powerViews.php?pv_id=48&page=1
- stoev 13y ago
  Thanks. I read that, but was hoping that I could get more detailed information somewhere.
  - sp332 13y ago
    Well, there's always the patent itself :) http://patents.justia.com/patent/8542509 http://patents.justia.com/patent/8542509
  - stoev 13y ago
    That's better, cheers.

somid3 13y ago

I've know this team for some time (also an MIT grad). I'm so happy they have pushed their product and have moved to the Bay Area. The Dart might look like a small device but its an incredible feat -- specially since it needs to safely work with all laptops and devices. Very excited about the future of the product.

cliveowen 13y ago

Looks like it'll only work on US outlets, so it's unfit for most of the world.

Jtsummers 13y ago
> Global Dart: You live abroad and you want a Dart. This reward is for you. The Dart will work internationally, but you'll need a plug to match your outlet. This reward includes the Dart PLUS a plug adapter for your region. Your Dart, your color holds for this offer. Choose your favorite from among our signature Kickstarter colors. Please note the later estimated delivery date. Not MacBook compatible. Shipping is included. (Emphasis added) It seems this is in fact fit for most of the world.
- cliveowen 13y ago
  If you have to resort to an adapter you lose the main proposition (the small form factor), so the point remains.
  - smackfu 13y ago
    Making the power adapter longer also makes it more prone to fall out of the wall, especially with Euro style plugs.
  - joezydeco 13y ago
    A plug adapter doesn't have to be as large as a transformer. http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/theshorelinemarket_2310_643977735 http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/theshorelinemarket_2310_643977735 Inelegant? Sure. Large? No.
    - kijin 13y ago
      That only works in continental Europe, South Korea, and a handful of other countries that use the CEE7 (Europlug) standard. In the UK, the plug adapter is going to be twice as big as Dart: https://www.google.com/search?q=uk%20plug&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=uk%20plug&tbm=isch

AceJohnny2 13y ago

This looks like a great and promising product. At the headline, I had the kneejerk doubt that they could fit laptop-level power in such a small adapter, but they claim that's exactly why their product is interesting. Nevertheless, I'm going to wait for the first wave to prove itself and for them to iron the kinks out (there are always kinks in a first-gen HW product). As such, I hope this is a true "kickstarter" that starts company momentum and isn't, like too many others, a one-shot deal.

robobro 13y ago
It's a bit pricey, too.

slg 13y ago

One word of warning, the product timeline says you should expect your product in 7-11 months. That is a long time when you are talking about device compatibility. All Kickstarters have risks, but buying an accessory for a device that may not even exist yet is a larger than normal gamble. There were plenty of Kickstarters for iPhone accessories that didn't arrive until after they were already obsoleted by the lightning cable. Will this work on your next laptop? Probably. Can the Dart team guarantee that the device will "work with all major PC brands" manufactured in the next year? Probably not. Is that risk worth the extra money you save on a pre-order? That is up to you to decide.

x1024 13y ago
Note that it powers a usb device. Every single iOS device and every Android device that I know of have a USB on one end of the cable. Also, is anyone really innovating in Laptops these days? Is there a reasonable expectation that something like "A new type of charger" can even happen in the next 12-24 months?
- nostromo 13y ago
  It powers one usb port and a laptop. Nobody is buying it just for the usb port; it's bigger and more expensive than existing usb outlets.
stoev 13y ago
I don't think that there is much that the major PC brands can do to prevent the device from powering their future devices. However, you are right that a certain a certain amount of risk exists and I don't think that one would actually save a lot of money by ordering early. Given that they use no custom electrical components (according to the project description), $89 seems like quite a hefty price. I assume that by the time the device is mass produced its price will be lower due to pressure from competitors.
userbinator 13y ago
Unless some radical change happens to laptop power supplies in the next few months - a change from designs that have remained the same for over a decade - it's very likely this adapter will work with the newest (normal) laptops available when it comes out. Also, laptops have very flexible power input circuits that will accept a wide range of DC input: they'll start running from ~12V (the voltage of an almost-dead battery), and go as high as the voltage specs on the input components allows - 25V (filter caps) is the usual absolute upper limit. Higher voltage means lower I^2R losses but manufacturers like to leave some safety margin, which is why 20V is somewhat of a de-facto standard given the parts available. The general power distribution circuits in a laptop are like this: there's a main power rail, whose voltage varies with battery voltage when running on battery, and is the DC-IN voltage with the adapter plugged in. The voltages for the CPU, GPU, chipset, etc. are all generated by DC-DC converters supplied from this main rail. There's a set of diodes/MOSFETs that wire-OR together the battery and DC-IN to the main rail, preventing current flow in the wrong direction. It also powers the battery charger. I've read a lot of laptop schematics, and all of them use very similar power circuitry, often with the same components. The only real concern with device compatibility is in the ID schemes that some manufacturers use, either to "lock out" third party adapters or encode wattage selection. The simplest ones are nothing more than a resistor in the plug, different values for different wattages (IBM/Lenovo is one example). More complex ones use a 1-wire interface to an EEPROM or other storage element (Dell, Apple) (http://www.laptop-junction.com/toast/content/dell-ac-power-adapter-id-chip-died http://www.laptop-junction.com/toast/content/dell-ac-power-a... http://www.righto.com/2013/06/teardown-and-exploration-of-magsafe.html http://www.righto.com/2013/06/teardown-and-exploration-of-ma... ). Then there's all the others that have no ID at all, just +/- input, and these are the most compatible. About the Dart itself: the technology used here (VHF SMPS) has been around for a long time in military/aerospace applications, where size/weight is more important than reducing switching losses. http://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/vhf-laptop-power-supply/ http://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/vhf-lapto...

brianbreslin 13y ago

Sadly this isn't directly Apple compatible. It says the mac version they buy an off the shelf apple power adapter and then connect them for you or something. I guess the magsafe connector is patented? I would hope Apple was working on a smaller power brick, its kind of silly when my power adapter is almost as heavy as my Macbook Air 13". yeah, i know #firstworldproblems

megablast 13y ago
Not sure what adapter you are using, but the one that ships with the 2012 or 2013 air is tiny and very light.

dotBen 13y ago

To get around the Apple patent, they should have made the device compatible with a cigaratte lighter socket or the old-school plane power socket, which would enable customers to buy the official Apple Travel Adapter. This is how HyperJuice has done it. Additionally, If you have a MacBook Air it doesn't seem significantly enough smaller than the 45W MBA power brick - not to justify the higher price, anyway. UPDATE: meant 45W, not 65W, corrected

uncoder0 13y ago
My Air came with a 45W power brick which is even smaller than the 65W.
rcthompson 13y ago
Which Apple patent is this? The Magsafe thing for the end that attaches to the computer?
- userbinator 13y ago
  Yes, their magnetic power connector is patented. US7311526. (Not that it ever stopped the Chinese who have had magnetic power connectors on their electric kettles and skillets for years before Macbooks even existed from cloning it, but that's a different story...)
  - r00fus 13y ago
    Your throwaway remark is ridiculous - a quick visual comparison will show you that they're completely different interfaces designed for different products.
    - zhemao 13y ago
      Here is the actual patent. http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=7311526.PN.&OS=PN/7311526&RS=PN/7311526 http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=... > An electrical plug and receptacle relying on magnetic force to maintain contact are disclosed. The plug and receptacle can be used as part of a power adapter for connecting an electronic device, such as a laptop computer, to a power supply. The plug includes electrical contacts, which are preferably biased toward corresponding contacts on the receptacle. The plug and receptacle each have a magnetic element. The magnetic element on one or both of the plug and receptacle can be a magnet, which is preferably a permanent rare earth magnet although electromagnets may also be used. The magnetic element on the plug or receptacle that does not include a magnet is composed of ferromagnetic material. When the plug and receptacle are brought into proximity, the magnetic attraction between the magnet and its complement, whether another magnet or a ferromagnetic material, maintains the contacts in an electrically conductive relationship. What part of that abstract doesn't also describe the magnetic connector on a Japanese electric water kettle?

kubiiii 13y ago

Very nice product. I have an (fairly) old compaq laptop with a built in adapter and even though its heavier than it should be, pluging the cable is a delight. I use the HN facebook feed (yes I do) and there is no direct link on it, just the video (maybe specific to KS?). Also the music in the video is distracting. It is way overcompressed.

beambot 13y ago

Best way to get me to buy one... Let Ken Shirriff do a teardown. He's done some amazing work analyzing various AC-DC adaptors [1-2]. [1] http://www.righto.com/2012/10/a-dozen-usb-chargers-in-lab-apple-is.html http://www.righto.com/2012/10/a-dozen-usb-chargers-in-lab-ap... [2] http://www.righto.com/2012/05/apple-iphone-charger-teardown-quality.html http://www.righto.com/2012/05/apple-iphone-charger-teardown-...

deleted 13y ago
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gcb0 13y ago
couldn't agree more. But besides efficiency, i'd also like to see RF interference measurements on this one. There is a reason good power converters are fixed in one voltage output and use transformers...
- drakaal 13y ago
  High. VHF AC to DC conversion isn't in many devices because it is actually hard to get it to not cause issues with everything else on the same transformer (not even breaker). Also you notice they use a lighter wire than most laptop power supplies would and no ferro loop at the end to reduce the noise to the device. Maybe I missed it, but I don't think I saw a UL approval on the device. I also don't think there is enough room in the case to have a thermal cut out, and a fuse/breaker. Which you really need on a power supply. I'd love to be wrong on all this. I hate carrying a brick (though mine is about the size of half a deck of cards).
  - snops 13y ago
    Thermal fuses are actually pretty small, this one (which is pretty representative): http://uk.farnell.com/nte-electronics/nte8065/fuse-thermal-cutoff-10a-250v-axial/dp/2192420 http://uk.farnell.com/nte-electronics/nte8065/fuse-thermal-c... is about the size of a 1/4W resistor at 12mm long. A fuse isn't too big either, this 0402 fuse: http://uk.farnell.com/te-connectivity-raychem/dp/1843788 http://uk.farnell.com/te-connectivity-raychem/dp/1843788 is rated at 4A and is only 1mm long! The real thing for size is the transformer and other magnetics, which decrease with frequency, hence why this uses VHF frequencies. Output filters can also be made smaller at higher frequencies, and Ken Shirriff's iPhone charger teardown above shows a small ferrite ring _inside_ the charger case for high frequencies. UL Approval is probably under on the "Production Timeline" (2/3rds down) under "Submit for initial regulatory certification (4 months)", which is set to begin now (Apr-May). As for the wire thickness, it doesn't seem that much thinner than my Macbook Charger, which is also 65W. The production timeline on the kickstarter leaves them time to change to a thicker one. The big question of course, is the feasibility of the VHF AC-DC conversion. FINsix have a paper (http://finsix.com/assets/files/FINsix_Tech.pdf http://finsix.com/assets/files/FINsix_Tech.pdf) but its not very long or detailed, and I don't know enough to criticise it if it was.

yoamro 13y ago

Great product. Cant help but feel this will be extremely losable, if consumers are anything like me..

xexers 13y ago

I wonder about vampire power usage. If I leave it plugged in to the wall, but not into my laptop, how much power does it consume.

beggi 13y ago

This looks legit backed by MIT patents and grad students, but I wonder why a group making this "breakthrough" is going directly to Kickstarter to raise hundreds of thousands of dollars, instead of selling the technology directly to companies like Apple or Samsung and make tens of millions of dollars.

stoev 13y ago
Because it is a lot easier to attract new customers and do a free PR campaign this way. It doesn't prevent them from selling the technology later on.
dragonwriter 13y ago
Because Kickstarter is used to get the resource to accelerate the business which they may well eventually sell to Apple or Samsung for far more than they raise from kickstarter. (See, e.g., Oculus Rift.)
- probably_wrong 13y ago
  That's a fairly cynical and negative point of view that goes against the core ideas on which Kickstarter was created. And yet, there's a high chance that you are 100% right. I find it sad that we'll have to always consider that particular scenario from now on. Stupid Facebook.
  - stoev 13y ago
    Kickstarter's core goal was to help inventors bring their ideas to life and help them fund initial production. It has since evolved into a platform that often helps their most engaged users find new ideas and get early access to new technology. Both of these processes benefit from one another, so I don't think that "it goes against the core ideas on which Kickstarter was created".
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    > That's a fairly cynical and negative point of view that goes against the core ideas on which Kickstarter was created. I don't think it really does. Kickstarter is expressly a way of getting resources people interested in offerings to launch them when the funds to start the to launch the offering wouldn't otherwise be available, in order to create sustainable businesses that would otherwise not get started because of lack of access to funds to start them. Obviously, one of the very common things to do with a viable business once it is running -- and one that maximizes the return for people who are best at (or most interested in) launching things -- is to establish the business, sell it to someone interested in running it for the long term, and use the proceeds to start more things. While particular exits might bother some people, I don't see how its contrary to the core ideas on which Kickstarter was created, or a sad thing. People who are well suited to getting the ball started on something aren't always best suited for later stages.

Dorian-Marie 13y ago

200$ for "Global Dart for MacBook", that's a lot for a charger

colindean 13y ago

I saw this at CES and it was one of the very few products I saw the entire event that made me say, "I want to invest in this company." I wanted to take one home! Coverage I helped write: http://www.thinkcomputers.org/finsix-shrinks-laptop-power-bricks-to-pocket-size/ http://www.thinkcomputers.org/finsix-shrinks-laptop-power-br...

raverbashing 13y ago

Good they're thinking about the regulatory needs But I doubt they'll make do without the ferrite core. The smaller the device is, it usually means more interference being generated, and the higher frequencies make it more complicated.

nraynaud 13y ago
there are 2 things made of ferrite in an adapter, for different reasons. There is a ferrite ring around the input cable so that EMI don't go upstream in the socket, and this one they will probably keep. The other one is the core of the transformer and they say they don't need it at that frequency.

zobzu 13y ago

not sure how using a better switching regulator is "patentable" but then again... main reason for chargers to be bulky is costs (nobody "cares" when they buy the laptop, they only realize later..), not technology. other than that it's dearly needed for many.

nouveaux 13y ago

I know this is Hacker News and we love startups, but I think this would have been a better licensing play. It just doesn't seem like its a good business model to try and create all these adapters for old and new laptops. That compatibility list looks really annoying from a consumer standpoint. Its just not something I want to look up every time I'm in the market for a new laptop.

rhizome 13y ago
That's just for now. From the looks of the laptop connection they're angling for a buyout/license from iGo, who already makes a zillion nub-ends just like theirs.

pacofvf 13y ago

But.. but.. Canada and Mexico use the same socket/voltage, we have to buy the global edition anyway?

gamache 13y ago

I am left wondering what's novel/patent-worthy about a VHF power converter. It sounds like an incremental improvement on current systems (which typically operate in the 100kHz-1MHz range), and the link in the Kickstarter doesn't have much substance to it. Anyone know what I am missing?

goldbeck 13y ago
According to the company's website, their tech gets them up to the 30-300MHz range. http://finsix.com/power-platform/#section-frequency-innovation http://finsix.com/power-platform/#section-frequency-innovati...
gaze 13y ago
Parasitics

tdicola 13y ago

Very polished kickstarter but I'm left wondering, do I really need an $80-$200 charger? The MacBook air charger is already pretty small and my phone lasts all day without the need to recharge. Although the tech inside it might be novel and interesting I really don't see the cost vs benefit as a consumer.

mschuster91 13y ago
My Acer netbook comes with a lightweight but still bulky-as-fxxk charger...

zan2434 13y ago

This looks like a funded, experienced, hardware team with an already finished product. Are they only using Kickstarter for exposure? If they're looking for validation/upfront manufacturing costs they should be doing pre-orders instead of "crowdfunding"

SoftwareMaven 13y ago
Please define the difference in this context, especially looking at the funding rewards.
- Xylakant 13y ago
  Pre-Order gives you a right to obtain the product or at least get some money back in case the company folds and there are assets left, usually even before the investors see any money. You're a customer. Kickstarter gives you "you're a backer" and in case the company folds you get nothing.
  - jessaustin 13y ago
    That might be an argument against Kickstarter in general, but it isn't a good criticism of any particular use of Kickstarter, especially of one like this which appears highly likely to succeed in producing the promised product.
    - Xylakant 13y ago
      I think it's even a better criticism of this particular case: If this kickstarter really has such a low risk of failure, why don't the investors bear that risk and go for preorders?
      - jessaustin 13y ago
        As a consumer I would rather the investors expose me to a tiny risk than a huge risk. Would you really prefer the converse?

hippich 13y ago

Too bad my laptop requires 240W power adapter :)

TheLoneWolfling 13y ago
240W? How much battery life do you get? Half an hour?
- hippich 13y ago
  with normal usage - 4.5 hours. But if I run something in dGPU - I can burn through battery in like an hour. Under windows they told it will get better battery life mostly because of better drivers support. But I never tested it. This is Dell Precision M6600. This one and most other Precisions will consume similar amount of power from PSU. Not sure why all the downvotes. Even MacBook Pro I have requires 85W

Khao 13y ago

Shouldn't a power adapter like that be grounded?

Xylakant 13y ago
Apple power adapters are not grounded if you use the short plug (the cable is grounded) and they supply up to 85W. You sometimes get the slight tingly feeling when touching the case.
TheLoneWolfling 13y ago
My laptop power supply isn't grounded. I assume that there is a good reason for this.
jarek 13y ago
Anecdote: I've been using ungrounded (two-prong) genuine Thinkpad power adapters for close to a decade now with no issues.
nraynaud 13y ago
it's not mandatory in most countries for various reasons. The most simple one is that none of failures modes of the adapters connect the main to the laptop without doing a short first (unless you bought a fake one in which case all the bets are off).
McGuffin 13y ago
It's pretty common for power adapters to be double insulated. Which in a way is very useful if you're traveling in e.g. continental Europe, where you can just buy a two prong "europlug" cable to use instead of the NEMA one which fits in sockets of varying design.

wtracy 13y ago

I would like to see exact dimensions of this thing. All I see on the page is "2.5 cubic inches".

deleted 13y ago

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pud 13y ago

Give it a retractable cord and I'm sold.

ajb 13y ago

Sticks a long way out of the wall. How much, lest's see: the size is given in cubic inches, how useful - not. It's also only 50% of the size of my current adapter, not a quarter, although to be fair, that one is only 33W. Does have a UK plug though! Dart plus plug adapter is probably no smaller.

derengel 13y ago

Its funny how they show it most of the time without the cable.

Theodores 13y ago

I can't see many British people queuing up to pay for this - it has the wrong plug on it!

IvyMike 13y ago

As someone who's travelled a lot, this looks like a cool upgrade. But man, what I wouldn't give for an adapter that make it easy to pack by having some clever and clean way to wrap the cord. It doesn't look like this one does.

neil_s 13y ago

Wait so what's the advantage of this over the free adapter your laptop came with? It says its smaller, and yes it does look marginally smaller (not enough to make a difference to me personally), but is that it? You can charge another USB device with it, but my Surface Pro charger offers that too. Am I missing some other USP that would make it worth buying this as an upgrade? I can see this being useful when licensed to laptop manufacturers, but not as an aftermarket upgrade.

witty_username 13y ago
Me too. I see that it has some new technology; but the benefits don't seem that much. Can the downvoters explain?

ytjohn 13y ago

This looks very much like the Rommoss car charger. I have one for my laptop. This gets its source from 12V DC instead of AC, but the rest works the same. Usb port and automatic voltage sensing circuitry. You just need a specific cable for whatever you're charging. Plug in a standard usb cable to charge your phone, you get 5V. Plug in an adapter cable for your Dell laptop, get the desired 19V (or whatever your laptop needs). http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Portable-Charger-Charging-Latitude/dp/B008QV0AF0 http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Portable-Charger-Charging-La...

jebblue 13y ago

Good idea but the implementation is gravity challenged which will wear the plugs and the sockets used over time. It would be better to reduce the length and get it closer to the socket.

balladeer 13y ago

I am not sure it's just me, or few more, or many more, but after Oculus VR I doubt I'll crowd-fund almost anything other than charity.

deleted 13y ago

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macco 13y ago

I don't get it. Do they really solve a problem? I have a pretty nice laptop adapter, that is light and about twice the size of Dart. I is perfectly fine for me.

AndrewDucker 13y ago

I'm looking forward to seeing what improvements happen once there's a laptop charging standard: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2319855/eu-pushes-for-a-single-laptop-charger-standard http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2319855/eu-pushes-f...

chx 13y ago

Right now the smallest laptop adapter; also has no AC cord; is the http://www.fsplifestyle.com/product.php?LID=1&PSN=771 http://www.fsplifestyle.com/product.php?LID=1&PSN=771 FSP Twinkle. It's the same 19V 65W adapter this one claims to be. It's made by a reputable power supply maker. While I applaud smaller and lighter adapters I would be extremely wary of an unknown startup meddling with power supplies. Also, regulatory approval is hell and while they do mention it among the risks I am also wary of that. I will pass this Kickstarter...

cordite 13y ago

> Dart for MacBook costs us an additional $79 Apple sure doesn't like to make it easy for third parties to be physically compatible with them.

graywh 13y ago

I'd love to be able to send in my old Macbook power adapters with frayed cords to save $79 on the connector.