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Amazon Will Pay You $5,000 to Quit Your Job
- smurph 13y agoBig defense contractors have a yearly VRIF (Voluntary Reduction In Force), which is when they offer slightly better than average retirement packages to expendable older employees. Young people would never get the offer (because they couldn't retire) and important older engineers would also never get the offer, even though many of them wanted it. This is a big improvement over that since it can be used by younger employees and the employee decides unilaterally if they want the package.
- muyuu 13y agoI wonder where do they apply this policy? There are plenty of sob stories of sweatshops in Germany (for instance). If this is a global policy then the argument that they're the scum of the Earth with regard to employees cannot hold much water.
- sharemywin 13y agoToo bad the guy didn't take his design and patent it. Then turn around and license it to GE and all their competitors.
- sharemywin 13y agoposted this on the wrong thread.
- jordn 13y agoThe first (and stated) effect of this policy is to weed out the unmotivated employees. However, Dan Ariely has explained that the secondary effect is potentially more powerful. For those that choose to stay, they will forever live with their past action of having turned down lots of money to work there. So, when they're having a crappy day and hating their job, they're probably thinking "why didn't I take the money and quit?!". The only way to reconcile their thoughts and actions is to explain that, in fact, they must really love this job and therefore should work hard at it. This effect is known as ‘Cognitive Dissonance’[1] and is fascinating. Here's a link to a video of Dan explaining this[2] and a really excellent Coursera course he does on Irrational behaviour[3]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance [2] http://bigthink.com/videos/dan-ariely-zappos-and-the-offer http://bigthink.com/videos/dan-ariely-zappos-and-the-offer [3] https://www.coursera.org/course/behavioralecon https://www.coursera.org/course/behavioralecon
- stefantalpalaru 13y agoThe mechanism at work might be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs
- tgb 13y agoI recall hearing about that for Zappos, but here the offer is repeated every year. Doesn't that ruin the effect - you know you can get (potentially even more) by quitting in a few months? And if it's only offered at certain times of the year, then there'll be a bunch of people hanging on until the offer comes around again.
- jordn 13y agoWell, I suspect there will be people postponing quitting for a few months just so they can cash out with the offer. That's undesirable for Amazon. But I doubt you'd have people staying in a job they dislike for another year just to get an extra $1k when they do quit. Also you'll have compounded another year of turning down cash to work there so the cognitive dissonance might be even stronger.
- nevir 13y agoThat's desirable for Amazon, too. This program gives them some control over when someone is likely to quit. I.e. not in the middle of a holiday rush.
- avar 13y agoIf the offer is annual and they add an extra $1000 per year then on average the disgruntled employee has to wait 6 months to quit and get a higher severance, not 1 year. Which means that 1/4 of those employees only have to churn through 3 more months to get an extra $1000, hardly something nobody would do. The obvious solution to fix this flaw in the system would be to raise the offer daily instead of annually, be approximately $1000/365 =~ $2.74 per day. Or more simply by $20 per week, which comes out to about the same per year ($1040).
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- donutdan4114 13y agoI very much agree with this. A great way to weed out employees who aren't happy there, and as such, will be unmotivated, unproductive, and bring down overall morale.
- ozh 13y agoZappos pays you $2,000 to quit... during the recruiting process http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2008-09-16/why-zappos-offers-new-hires-2-000-to-quitbusinessweek-business-news-stock-market-and-financial-advice http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2008-09-16/why-zappos-of...
- r00fus 13y agoThat's new hires who've done at least a week of training, not applicants. There's a world of difference in between.
- _wdh 13y agoI would be amazed if anyone accepted this offer, it's not enough money to justify making every other job interview afterwards harder. I bet it's just a PR trick to make them look like better employers after the warehouse conditions were exposed.
- imgabe 13y agoHow does it make other interviews harder? Saying you left because you felt the company wasn't a good fit for you and they offered you a sum of money that gave you a little leeway to plan your next move sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
- gregd 13y agoWho says you have to have job interviews afterwards? I've known plenty of people who line up interviews before they actually quit, then only quit when they've got another job lined up.
- afterburner 13y agoAlthough nobody else seems to have mentioned it, this sounds to me like they are trying to avoid employees being dissatisfied but sticking around in order to get severance pay. Obviously if you quit voluntarily, no severance pay, but Amazon gives you a bit of money anyways (much less than severance pay), so that maybe you won't stick around longer than is good for either of you.
- phamilton 13y agoIs it really much less? Last time I was let go I was given less than $5000 severance pay, and that was as a developer.
- afterburner 13y agoHmm, I'm in Canada, and while the legal minimum here probably isn't much higher than the US, maybe companies tend to offer more. Could just be what I've heard of in the largish engineering companies I've been in.
- danielweber 13y agoIn general, there is no requirement for any severance in the U.S. It can be negotiated for, and in certain specific cases laws may require either notice or severance.
- donretag 13y agoAt my company, I am both the most unmotivated and most productive employee. Where would that leave me? :)
- chrisgd 13y agoIn my shoes. . .
- grecy 13y agome too...
- lss456 13y agoI have to disagree. Something motivates you. If you're highly productive, something is motivating that. The question is what?
- donretag 13y agoI love being a software developer and I am great at my job. My other coworkers are nowhere near as talented and the lack of peers greatly contributes to my frustration (which makes me unmotivated).
- GeneralMayhem 13y agoMotivation by general pride in your work and refusal to compromise on standards will drive you to do your job well, but it won't drive you to be "motivated" in the sense of wanting your job to go well.
- smackfu 13y agoOne tricky bit is that it seems to be only once a year. So someone just moving on normally wouldn't easily be able to take advantage.
- ninv 13y agoIt starts with 2000$ then 1000$ increment per year up to 5000$ This deal is for warehouse employees only and most of the people(90%+) working in warehouse are contractors. They handpick employee(s) and once a year and offer him/her this deal. BS!
- mfisher87 13y agoThe article made it sounds like a universal offer, maybe I could see per-business unit, but not per-employee. That would require you to already know who the dissatisfied workers are. The stated point was to discover early who is not satisfied in their job. Do you have a source on that?
- ninv 13y agoIt's called severance package. It's hard to find dissatisfied workers but easy to find non-performers. I do not understand why this item is in shareholders' update. I feel sorry for Amazon's shareholders.
- duskwuff 13y agoAs others have mentioned: keep in mind this offer is for warehouse employees. There's lots of hard metrics being gathered on those employees, so it's straightforward to figure out which ones are underperforming.
- shubb 13y agoSo, you take employees with a hard, physical job... and you offer them $5000 to leave and waive all claims against you... I wonder if they target the ones that are starting to limp...
- adamman 13y agoIf this is true (handpick), they need to update that article.
- JackC 13y agoPurely on a legal level, getting your most disgruntled employees to identify themselves and waive all claims in exchange for $2,000-5,000 is probably a pretty good deal.
- muyuu 13y agoFrom what I've read, they have plenty of employees with zero rights to claims, under schemes like German "minijobs" ( www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1szub2/9000_workers_at_amazoncoms_german_operations_were/ )
- notahacker 13y agoDefending against costly litigation and employment law claims - warranted or otherwise - costs a lot more in legal fees and reputational damage than a couple of months severance pay. And even if they do find themselves in the dock, an employee being shown to have turned down a couple of nonspecific, nondiscriminatory financial incentives to leave certainly weakens any allegations of protracted mistreatment. Anyone know what strings are attached to this offer?
- yen223 13y agoIsn't this just a cheaper version of a voluntary separation scheme? Makes brilliant sense actually.
- judk 13y agoThis is a disruptive Internet version.
- vaadu 13y agoCan we get the US federal government to institute this policy? With the caveat that once you quit you are prohibited from collecting a federal paycheck elsewhere.
- tomasien 13y agoAt first I thought you meant that the US Government would just pay anyone to quit their job AND I LOVED IT! I still think it's a good idea, and I know everyone probably thinks that first idea is stupid, but I think it's great. Getting people to feel comfortable quitting their jobs is the only way we're going to reinvent this economy.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- ForHackernews 13y agoDoes this apply to Amazon's subcontractor warehouse employees? Because those are some jobs seriously worth quitting for $5,000: http://www.motherjones.com/print/161491 http://www.motherjones.com/print/161491 This would never be worth it for a developer working for Amazon proper.
- bobjordan 13y agoAbout 5 years ago during worst of the downturn, I took $20,000 USD option our consulting firm gave and voluntarily quit a $120,000 base salary job. At the time, I thought that job sucked pretty bad and was looking for an out anyhow. I've been an entrepreneur ever since. No quick success story to tell - I've been bootstrapping for 5 years in China and it's been hard. But I've been happier overall focusing everyday on pretty much whatever-the-hell I want to think about, and my business just broke $1M USD revenues this year by doing that, so overall it seems right decision for me. Policies like this are probably a win-win for all involved.
- vidarh 13y agoAs much as the the $1bn exits are revered, 5 yars to $1m USD revenues IS quick success. Most who start a company will never get to that kind of revenue, and of the ones that do, many will take far longer. It's an impressive feat.
- EC1 13y agoWhat do you do? Why China?
- humannature 13y agoprobably cause he couldn't get a girlfriend in the U.S. if you look at all the foreigners in China, most of them have local Chinese girlfriends/wives and basically are losers in their home country. harsh truth.
- bobjordan 13y agoI came to Shenzhen China because I'm a manufacturing guy and this is the place to be for that. Plus the 8% YOY growth and low labor rates here give a better chance for bootstrap success. And finally, yes, I got a hot girlfriend during my visit and wanted to stay a while. She's now my wife. I first started a technical sourcing/manufacturing/engineering consulting company. Then later started a 2nd company that uses the experience and engineers in my consulting company, but instead of consulting we just do direct sales of custom designed products and tooling, like a virtual ODM.
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- ritchiea 13y agoThis is genius. Many people feel stuck in jobs they don't like for financial reasons. They're surely not as productive as they could be if they were happier. Providing even a small bit of assistance to help them out the door helps both sides. Employees don't feel trapped and employers don't have to wonder if their employee is just have a rough time or if he/she does not want to be there any longer. Not to mention, as another commenter pointed out [1], once you decline the money you will look back and remember you made the decision to stay when presented an opportunity to leave. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7572688 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7572688
- qwerta 13y agoVoluntary redundancy offer is pretty widespread. But there is usually exception for developers and other highly qualified people. Devs cant quit :-)
- walshemj 13y agoThere is always the wally solution ie deliberatly mess up.
- pvnick 13y agoA few years ago I worked at a place where the CEO instituted this policy in the wake of reading about Zappos doing it. I remember him standing up at the weekly company meeting and offering a few thousand dollars to anyone who quit. The thing is, a week earlier, another coworker had put in his two weeks, and the look on his face upon hearing that announcement... I'm not sure if he ever got the money, but oh well. C'est la vie.
- mediaman 13y agoWhat was your experience of the impact that policy had at that company? Anything? Did any lower performers leave to take the incentive? I've been curious about implementing this at my own company but I'd be interested in someone's actual experience with it, vs. hearing about it from people incentivized to claim it worked well because it was their idea to implement.
- pvnick 13y agoI actually don't think it had much impact at all actually. Although it wasn't a huge amount of money. I remember thinking "meh".
- doktrin 13y agoI have a vaguely similar anecdote. A former employer of mine withheld bonuses from the entire team since I had recently given my notice. They were quite open about the fact that they would give out the bonuses once I had left, and just didn't want me to get a slice of that particular pie.
- nemtaro 13y agoAs someone who actually worked at Amazon for a few long years, I'm always skeptical of such seemingly positive news, and often think "hmm, could this be another marketing trick to influence people's perception of Amazon rather than actually changing anything", and %90 of the time I'm right :) Here's how their typical financial offer is structured for new software engineers: 1st year: signing bonus + relocation bonus + 5% of stock grant 2nd year: signing bonus + 15% stock grant 3rd year: 40% stock grant 4th year: 40% stock grant If you quit within the first year, you have to give the relocation and signing bonus back. That's much much more than $1k. So there's a strong financial incentive / golden handcuffs to keep you there for at least 1-2 years, even if you are unhappy! After the 2nd year, the financial incentive of staying is still there in form of the large stock grant (which has grown due to their stock price rising) that you've been promised and waiting on for a long time. I can see someone rationally and happily taking the incentive after the third or fourth years and quit (i.e. after they've done damage to the work environment as an unhappy/unmotivated employee, and no longer have to give a fortune back to the company)... but before then, I doubt it'll change the behavior of any currently employed, overworked, over-paged, under-paid, under-appreciated software engineers. Who this policy might affect though is future hires, and their perception of Amazon. People who have a choice between offers from MS and Amazon for example. They might consider this an interesting policy and assume that it would have improved employee morale at Amazon even though it's common knowledge that Amazon has terrible work life balance, etc. I should also note that the Zappos policy makes a lot of sense to me, but this is very different from that, as is the employee culture of Zappos from Amazon.
- sib 13y agoNote that this offer is for fulfillment center employees, not software engineers.
- gxs 13y agoThank you for clarifying this, it was a source of confusion for me as well. Not to sound elitist, but what is $5k to a software engineer making 120k/year regardless of the cost of living in Seattle. This makes more sense.
- everyone 13y agoYeah Amazon are great to their permanent workers, management and so on. But what about the vast of majority of permatemp workers who do all the moving, warehouse work etc. ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waeMkka60po https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waeMkka60po
- bowlofpetunias 13y agoSeems to me that this can only work in countries with little in the way of job protection. If you want to get rid of someone in most EU countries, it's going to cost you a lot more for them to sign away their rights by quitting. From that perspective, this is just an attempt to get rid of people cheaply. But exactly those people you actually want to take the offer won't, they are much better off forcing their employer to either fire them or make them a better offer.
- MBCook 13y agoA similar policy at Zappos was discussed a few years ago on the Freakonomics podcast. Here's the transcript: http://freakonomics.com/2011/09/30/the-upside-of-quitting-full-transcript/ http://freakonomics.com/2011/09/30/the-upside-of-quitting-fu...
- nargz503 13y agoI would think that it would be more of a tiered system. For some higher pay employees it might benefit them to remain in unsatisfactory job just to make the big bucks. They are then draining amazon and not contributing like they would be if the y were truly pleased with their job
- blazespin 13y agoIsn't this just Severance?
- orky56 13y agoThis reminds of the unlimited vacation policy. Essentially with both these policies, the company is deflecting issues regarding job satisfaction and burnout onto the employee. The employee almost gets bullied into not taking the offer so as to show that they are above the petty reward. These psychological games are not created by chance; they are instituted to keep everything black and white, with us or against us. By drawing a line in the sand, they are eliminating the necessary conversations employees should be having with HR or supervisors to improve the workplace and their own individual situations.
- prbuckley 13y agoI wonder what the chances of labor coordinating and everyone deciding collectively to take the offer at the same time? That would put Amazon in a tough spot and allow labor to negotiate a better deal. Amazon must be very confident that won't happen. Maybe this type of program says more about the weak state of organized labor in the US then it does about breeding a healthy and good company culture. There seems to be something you can read in between the lines with this.
- NorthGuy1 13y agoThis policy is specifically designed to weed out all but the most desperate employees. When you're living paycheque-to-paycheque you can't afford to strike. The reason I pay union dues is to top up that strike fund.
- JTon 13y agoI wonder what the tax implications of taking this offer are. My gut says it becomes considerably less desirable. Too bad
- codeonfire 13y agoMost blue collar workers turn over in a year, so this is just PR fluff. Companies can and do write them up at any time for the smallest of mistakes and then fire them, often within the first three months. Any statement made about a manual labor job and "After the first year" is ridiculous as is the tuition plan.
- sockgrant 13y agoDo you have a source?
- codeonfire 13y agoI worked similar jobs for several years.
- elwell 13y agoSo OpenSSL team has opportunity to make $3K profit and not have to deal with Heartbleed-scale shenanigans?
- dorfsmay 13y agoIf you leave, work somewhere else for six months or a year, can you come back at Amazon?
- jotm 13y agoI'd take $5000 to quit a job in an Amazon warehouse: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/11/25/amazon-staff-investigation_n_4335894.html http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/11/25/amazon-staff-inve... http://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingleton/2013/11/25/amazon-com-is-accused-of-slave-driving-after-bbc-secretly-videotaped-warehouse-conditions/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingleton/2013/11/25/amazo... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2512959/Walk-11-miles-shift-pick-order-33-seconds--Amazon-works-staff-bone.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2512959/Walk-11-mile... http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/jean-baptiste-malet-amazon-warehouse http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/jean-baptiste-malet-amazon-wa... :-) ... :-(
- Pxtl 13y agoSo in other words, there's now a $5000 hiring bonus if you can figure out a way to jump ship to Google or any of Amazon's other competitors. Sounds good to me.
- readmylist 13y agoAmazon runs through whole towns. That is an understatement. They arrive and go through 8-10 counties worth of people. Every person that they let go was not a bad employee and every employee they kept was not a good employee. Amazon is assholes. They have their temporary staffing agency because they don't want to pay health benefits. If Amazon kept all the good employees that the staffing agency gave them then they would no longer need the staffing agency. Staffing agencies are expensive, they are not really that much cheaper. If Amazon got rid of the staffing agency they could pay the employees they already have more money and there wouldnt be a question if employees are happy or not, motivated or not. The buy outs are just to keep their staffing agency busy. How is the staffing agency going to say all of a sudden, "You know what, we dont even require a diploma or a GED anymore, we did before but now we don't". With their staff agency they are burning money right in front of employees' faces while telling them that they cannot pay them one dime more. They have pissed off and cleaned out half the freaking state now they will hire anyone. Now they are going to pay some perfectly good employees to leave. Really these employees are exceptional. If you can last somewhere for 2-3 years where most people can't last 2-3 weeks, you are a valuable employee. That is Amazon's problem: They do not value people.