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Microsoft Will Soon Bring Back The Start Menu In Windows 8.1

371 points by zastrowm 13y ago

ntakasaki 13y ago
Less blurry screenshot https://twitter.com/pouletfou51/status/451417213052809216/photo/1/large https://twitter.com/pouletfou51/status/451417213052809216/ph...
- nacs 13y ago
  Hopefully that Fisher-Price mess they have attached to the start menu can be disabled as well.
  - TheLoneWolfling 13y ago
    I doubt it. As far as I can tell this is "just" another way of pushing Metro. Excuse me: the interface formerly known as Metro. "Oh, people complained about us forcing Metro. So let's introduce it more gradually!"
    - derefr 13y ago
      Before W8 was released, Metro may have just been something Microsoft was pushing. Now, however, developers have released third-party Metro apps, and people have these apps installed. Do you think Microsoft would unceremoniously disable access to every Metro-only app?
      - TheLoneWolfling 13y ago
        There is a difference between "supporting third-party metro apps if necessary" and "putting links to metro apps that have desktop-style equivalents all over the start menu"
    - vertex-four 13y ago
      Metro in itself isn't a terrible idea. Especially the idea of having a reduced runtime that can work across mobile/tablet/desktop. The poor idea was forcing full-screen on the desktop. Now that they're going back on that idea, by implementing the Start menu, allowing Metro apps to run in windows, and more properly integrating Metro with the desktop, it might actually be usable.
  - bunderbunder 13y ago
    I doubt you'll be able to disable it, but presumably you could just remove all the tiles if you really don't want them. Personally I think it might be a good idea. It seems like a reboot of what Microsoft was going for with the Windows Sidebar (or the Start screen, obviously) in a format that actually works with desktop Windows's overall UI paradigm.
  - derefr 13y ago
    I remember when people were switching from Windows Vista to Windows 7. Want to know what they missed the most? The sidebar widgets. There were all sorts of guides on how to get sidebar.exe running in W7. The basic premise of W8, if you ignore all the window-management stuff, is that they put your sidebar widgets inside your start menu, and made that your desktop (thus also obviating desktop shortcuts.) They may have implemented it horribly, but if the W8 start screen was the desktop--if your taskbar and windows displayed on top of it--I think it'd be the perfect UX for a desktop.
    - macspoofing 13y ago
      >Want to know what they missed the most? The sidebar widgets. Some people missed widgets. By W7 widgets were pretty much dead.
  - Too 13y ago
    That blue and green combo really gave me vibes of windows xp, that is not a good thing.
- bluthru 13y ago
  I'd like to see them incorporate the recycle bin into the taskbar, similar to the dock in OS X.
- deletes 13y ago
  right click >> Properties >> Disable metro I hope there is an obscure setting somewhere that would disable metro completely. As a programmer I see no benefit to it.
- gordaco 13y ago
  TBH I still find it very ugly, but then again I've disliked flat design since the first moment I've seen it. I know I'm pretty much a caveman (and a minority) in this sense, but I really like the old, classic, sober windows 9x look and feel, so much that I doubt I'd use a new version of Windows that wouldn't allow me to use it. I'd rather do away completely with Modern UI in the desktop, but it seems some people like it; the more config options given, the better, at least for power users.
daigoba66 13y ago
It's interesting how similar it is to some of the concepts from this often linked write-up: http://jaymachalani.com/blog/2013/12/12/fixing-windows-8 http://jaymachalani.com/blog/2013/12/12/fixing-windows-8
- zastrowm 13y ago
  I'd hope they take more influence from the write-up, however. I like that they'll allow Windowed apps, but their current implementation now looks like they crammed together Metro and Windows 7 without any polish. The write-up, however, has a nice cohesive experience. Of course, Microsoft's startup menu is probably early alpha, so it's a moot point.
- tsurantino 13y ago
  This is definitely better. One subtle thing that it takes into account that's different from the Microsoft screenshot is that the current Microsoft version has two shortcuts for the Start Menu - the pinned start items separated by a line and the live tiles. Jay put the live tiles where the items are currently separated by the line to make that cohesive experience. I really hope they move forward with that design for the next update.
rayiner 13y ago
Microsoft just needs to copy Apple here. Have a desktop, but let Metro apps run in either a window or full screen in another desktop. Voila: integration of Metro and the desktop in a way that doesn't suck.
- FreezerburnV 13y ago
  That's coming in an update. Which is also mentioned in the article and shown in the image (look at the right-most window) :)
- antonioevans 13y ago
  I don't agree. Metro doesn't make sense if you have a desktop with apps on it. It's redundant. I have no access to the numbers but in my office no one uses the Apps except weather. Trying to create a ubiquitous system for tablets/phones/desktop ignores how people use each device.
  - kabdib 13y ago
    It's worse than redundant, it gets in the way. I upgraded to 8.1 from Win7 last week. My first experience trying to compare a PDF document with text file in another editor was quite unpleasant (Metro essentially makes apps modal, which is nuts).
    - bunderbunder 13y ago
      That's where the grandparent's idea of being able to run Don't-Call-it-Metro apps in a windowed mode comes into play. Doesn't seem like it should be hard for Microsoft to accomplish. Metro's already supposed to be resolution-independent, so all that's really accomplished by forcing them to be fullscreen on desktop monitors is keeping ease of task switching and information density to an absolute minimum.
    - dangrossman 13y ago
      You can have Metro apps side-by-side, including next to your desktop apps, right now. Just grab from the top of the screen and drag left or right. http://i.imgur.com/3IwDXVA.png http://i.imgur.com/3IwDXVA.png Or, don't use Reader. The inclusion of a free PDF reader app with your computer purchase doesn't get in the way of using a desktop program instead.
momentarily 13y ago
Metro should have been device-aware (and still, toggleable) from the very beginning. You can't impose a touch interface on desktop devices any more than you can impose a desktop interface on touch devices. Microsoft tried that, too, with Windows CE. It didn't work so well.
r00fus 13y ago
Good news, but why did it take so long for MS to grok this? So far every single piece of news since Ballmer's abdication has shown clue.
- Too 13y ago
  When making such a major change its hard to know if people don't like it simply because "its not like it used to be" or if it really isn't good. Only way to distinguish between those two is to wait. I still see people today who configure windows explorer to show the menu bar, this was removed (default to hidden) in windows vista and there's basically nothing on that menu that can't be done in fewer mouse clicks elsewhere. These people don't even use the menu themselves, they are just used to seeing it there.
- Haul4ss 13y ago
  And every single piece of that news started under Ballmer's tenure. The new guy has been there < 60 days. The stuff they're announcing now was started months if not years ago.
- RandallBrown 13y ago
  Microsoft has nearly 100,000 employees. The company moves at a glacial pace, so changes like this that might seem small to you, will actually take quite some time.
  - clauretano 13y ago
    and nearly 100,000 additional "dash trash" workers.
praseodym 13y ago
The Verge thinks this will be part of Windows 9 instead: http://www.theverge.com/2014/4/2/5574830/windows-9-start-menu-new-desktop-experience http://www.theverge.com/2014/4/2/5574830/windows-9-start-men...
- acqq 13y ago
  The Verge link doesn't mention Windows 9 anymore. And the screenshot actually contains the "Windows 8.1 Enterprise Build 9600" string (check the right corner). https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BkPBkEXCcAEIbN4.png:large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BkPBkEXCcAEIbN4.png:large
Crito 13y ago
It's always nice to see UI/UX people respond to user input and admit when they are wrong, rather than berate their users for not understanding the product. This sort of humbleness seems to be becoming increasingly rare. In the past Microsoft has done well for themselves by listening to their business users and prioritizing their concerns about backwards compatibility. I hope this revert represents a natural continuation of that policy.
- soup10 13y ago
  Except they've added all that metro crap to the already cluttered start menu. Their UI team is still a long way from acknowledging the failure of integrating metro with the desktop; and windows 8 will continue to be a mess until they do.
  - sonnyz 13y ago
    Hopefully they'll have an option to use a smaller start menu, like in the past.
  - bratsche 13y ago
    Metro itself wasn't the problem though, imo. It's the UX of going back and forth to do simple tasks that is the problem. Example: how do you restart or shutdown your Windows 8.1 machine when you're on the desktop? Go to the start screen. Click your name, sign out, click the screen so it 'opens', click the power button, click restart or shutdown from the menu.
    - TheCoreh 13y ago
      Or just go to the bottom right corner of the screen, wait for the charms bar to pop up, click the Preferences icon then shutdown. Which still doesn't make a lot of sense, but is simpler than what you described.
      - jsight 13y ago
        Or just press the power button, which actually does make a lot of sense. There are a lot of things about Metro that I dislike, but killing the "don't touch the power button on a computer" idiom is one that I do like.
darrenkopp 13y ago
After using Windows 8 since release, I kind of prefer the current start menu to the old school one, but I guess I'm in the minority.
- ryanoshea 13y ago
  I agree. There's no lost functionality with the new screen, except not being able to see your desktop while you're in the Start screen. Let's think about what you can do in the traditional start menu: - search for and browse for applications and settings (you can do this in the start screen) - have quick access to favorite programs (this is what tiles are for) - have quick access to settings shortcuts, like "Devices and Printers" (you can search for these) - shut down/standby/power commands (these have been moved to a charm, but will return in 8.1 Update 1) The only thing that has been changed, that people might not like, is the design, the layout, and possibly the change in UX getting from the start screen to a given action. But as far as I can see, every action you'd want to do on the start screen is just as accessible as it was in Windows 7. To me, pressing the Start key on my keyboard and typing the first few letters of literally anything I want to do on my system is the most important UX component of Windows 8 & 8.1. Windows Vista introduced it, Windows 7 improved it, and now 8 and 8.1 made it shinier and faster. It's amazing to me how many people I see trying to use their computers without taking advantage of this functionality. Of course, I might have just forgotten something. But it seems like people are mostly just complaining because it's different, regardless of whether it's actually worse.
  - DerpDerpDerp 13y ago
    Traversing the start screen menus without being able to see a webpage is a major downside for trying to figure out how to deal with their stupid settings layout, which is itself a second major downside to Windows 8. Had they not spread settings between 2-3 different places, or left the menus being intuitive to make adjustments to the system, it might have been fine. But there's been several times I've had to resort to the internet to disable "helpful" features (like "power saving" by toggling my wifi on the desktop), and constantly toggling between the menu screen and the webbrowser because the menu ran full screen was rather annoying. Not a good way to convince me you've made a good menu layout change.
tdicola 13y ago
I'm fascinated that they still keep the Building Windows 8 blog up these days. You can go back and read their justifications on why they made the major changes that are now being backed out of win 8, for example start menu: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/10/11/reflecting-on-your-comments-on-the-start-screen.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/10/11/reflecting-on-... and http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/10/03/evolving-the-start-menu.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/10/03/evolving-the-s... I would love to see an analysis of how with so much data and insight they built something people didn't want. Was it all just confirmation bias causing them to see what they wanted in the data?
- drzaiusapelord 13y ago
  Isn't a PR blog, by definition, more than a little disingenuous? I imagine certain data was cherry-picked to tow the party line (Ballmer?) but now with the new talent coming into power, things are changing.
  - untog 13y ago
    I imagine certain data was cherry-picked to tow the party line There isn't any evidence of that. The far more interesting possibility is that the data suggested that they do what they did, but that the data was wrong. An examination of how and why that might be the case would be fascinating. As opposed to saying "typical Ballmer!"
    - unreal37 13y ago
      I believe they were tricked by the data. "Only 1.2% of users use this feature, so we got rid of it!" And they did that 100 times with 100 different features. And pissed everyone off.
      - throwawaymsft 13y ago
        Exactly: "The z key is only used in 1.2% of keystrokes, let's remove it! (It's a power user feature available using alt + ASCII code)" With data-driven ui decisions, it's not so easy to see these fallacies when staring at a spreadsheet.
adamwong246 13y ago
Never understood the fixation with the start menu. You start up metro and you are greeted with all those tiles- that is the new Start Menu. Why is that so confusing?
- jamesaguilar 13y ago
  It's not confusing. It's unnecessary and difficult to navigate with a mouse.
  - tdicola 13y ago
    Also very annoying to be thrown out of your app when you just want to run a calculator or something small. Even more annoying when that calculator has to run full screen (or you have to waste time snapping it to some side).
    - stackcollision 13y ago
      I haven't actually used Windows 8 because I've heard it's so terrible. What I don't understand is this: > In the future, all of Microsoft’s Universal Windows apps will also run in a window. What does this mean? Are you telling me that every program I run in Windows 8 is full screen? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The OS is called WINDOWS.
      - vertex-four 13y ago
        Every Metro app is full-screen, every normal Windows app runs in the desktop. It's remarkably annoying to have both paradigms forced on you.
    - sliverstorm 13y ago
      When I want a calculator, I type: Windows Key -> "calc" -> Enter Viola, the classic Windows calculator.
      - mullingitover 13y ago
skreech 13y ago
When using a touchscreen on a 13" ultrabook, the Win 8 start menu actually makes a lot of sense.
- matt_heimer 13y ago
  But forcing a touchscreen UI on everybody that doesn't have one is dumb. I don't see why they are trying to combine the two. Simply detect the form-factor, default to either the Metro or Win7 UI based on that and given people the option to switch.
  - teamonkey 13y ago
    I reckon, and I'm sure Microsoft and Apple do too, that screens without touch input will die out pretty quickly. Certainly within the lifespan of Win8 touch will be the norm. And the Windows desktop in its current form is awful for touch screens, so it too will die out. Expect similar updates from Apple soon.
    - userbinator 13y ago
      And we'll be expected to stretch our arms up to touch ever-larger-growing screens all day long? At the moment I'm sitting in front of a pair of 27" monitors. Trying to use a touchscreen that big for extended periods of time is just going to be fatiguing.
      - teamonkey 13y ago
        I'm not saying it's going to replace mouse and keyboard but a screen that doesn't support touch at all will soon feel archaic. Even now I often find myself absent-mindedly trying to close windows with my finger on my dual-screen setup. Remember that the ergonomics of a traditional workstation are driven by decades of mouse and keyboard input. As touch becomes more popular the layout will change to support that.
marknutter 13y ago
Might as well never change anything, ever. Sigh..
- fournm 13y ago
  The Microsoft conundrum: Every UI, interaction, and functionality must always stay the exact same and never change or be iterated upon/refined, but why aren't they trying anything to meet X demand or Y new thing.
  - vertex-four 13y ago
    There's plenty of new non-Metro-related functionality in Windows 8 that nobody ever complains about. Especially on the management side of things. Of course, people who'd actually use that functionality don't use Windows 8 because of Metro.
GrinningFool 13y ago
The problem isn't the start menu. A fullscreen searchable start menu is something people have likely gotten used to - except for a vocal minority. The problem is the context switching. Some apps full screen (even when they don't make sense or I want them part screen). Some control panel stuff in 'apps' (which requires full screen); some still in the old control panel. Some in both. Somewhere along the way someone started thinking the whole 'single task at a time [or at most two]' was a Good Thing - but then someone else said that we can't do that, and what we got was the ugly bastard child of both. I've stopped booting Windows, haven't done so even for gaming in a couple of months now. It's just too annoying at 8.x. edit: before someone calls me on it, why no I did not read the article - I've since gone back and done so, and it sounds like they'll be offering windowed mode for metro apps as well. So I take it back, this has the potential to make it far less annoying (if they consistently make it available for all metro apps).
- DerpDerpDerp 13y ago
  I mostly agree with your opinion about why Windows 8 was bad. A full screen, searchable start menu isn't the worst thing - though it does mean I can't be read a webpage while looking for something (which is a slight loss on usability). This is just a special case of your point about only being able to do one (or two) things at a time, when on a desktop, I really want to be able to 4 or 5. It seems like an interface designed for a tablet stapled (badly) to a completely different interface. Another problem is that they spread settings across 2 or 3 different places, hid things like shut down commands (because, you know, I'm never going to be shutting down my desktop!), and generally broke any consistency/sensibility to how the controls interface with the system.
  - jimmaswell 13y ago
    I end up dragging things onto/onto items on to open with/off the start menu enough that that was a major annoyance having it take up the whole screen.
  - bunderbunder 13y ago
    > A full screen, searchable start menu isn't the worst thing No, but it's a symptom of the worst thing. The worst thing is that Microsoft's UX team failed to realize that "The user's actually only interacting with this one thing right now" does not necessarily imply "This one thing is the only thing that deserves to even be visible right now."
amercade 13y ago
Why not use windows 7 instead of 8? What can I get from 8.1 that 7 doesn't have? Other than a UI that I don't like very much.
bratsche 13y ago
I know naming is tough, but couldn't they have called this something else? Windows 8.2? Windows 8.1.1 even?
joshbert 13y ago
I'm all for flat design should the context call for it. I don't feel like Windows 8 calls for it. I feel like that start menu looks infantile and cluttered. Yes Microsoft, we get it, you invented metro. Stop trying to push it on us on the desktop.
Pxtl 13y ago
This seems like the wrong solution to the problem. Merging the start menu with the desktop as a full-screen launcher was a great idea - the start menu is effectively a modal interface so it only makes sense to make it fullscreen, and the old "icons on the desktop" thing in Windows has always been a misfeature. My problem is its terrible integration with old Windows apps, drawing a hard line between "Metro" applications and "Windows Desktop" applications. The other stuff is just mechanical problems with pretending that an 11" screen is the same as a desktop monitor. Give me an always-visible taskbar, one that uses words instead of pictograms. I've got 2 23" monitors - I've got the space to dedicate some of that room to a taskbar. Also showing multiple applications at a time.
- acqq 13y ago
  Full screen swap for some short term action is never a good idea on the 24 inch screen. I understand you only if you assume the use of 7 inch device.
frik 13y ago
Finally, it took Redmond two Windows releases. It's good that the "metro" apps now run in window-mode too next to Win32 apps. Though, I wonder if Metro apps will be around in Win9. They could shut it down like Silverlight and the Vista/7 desktop gadgets. Instead of metro apps, saving websites to desktop (links) like in Win7 and FirefoxOS would make a lot more sense (IMHO).
druidsbane 13y ago
I think this is a great move, but why not enhance the run dialog so it works like Spotlight does on OSX: minimal, you type and it automatically searches. I like the start menu because its smaller than the start screen, but I prefer my launcher to be as tiny and powerful as possible without fullscreen flashing. Also, it lets me use the launcher to type in things that I can see from other windows, eg: calculations, paths, etc...
ape4 13y ago
Windows 8 - no start button or menu Windows 8.1 - added the start button but has Metro menu Windows 8.2 - merges old start menu and Metro menu Windows 8.3 - Same as Windows 7 (hopefully)
- frik 13y ago
  Windows 9 - coexistence of Win32 and HTML5 web apps; abandon metro WinRT API (like done before with Vista/7 desktop gadgets, Silverlight, etc.)
tericho 13y ago
All I want is to be able to open the calculator or preview a photo without it taking up my whole 24" screen and forcing me to ALT+F4.
wambotron 13y ago
I don't really think adding in the start menu is the answer. I've been using Win 8 since release candidate and, although I was annoyed at first, I soon grew to enjoy the new UX. When I use Win 7 now, the thing that annoys me the most is that damn start menu. It's clunky and feels like a chore to navigate through. In Win 8, you can switch over to the metro screen with the Win key, start typing and BAM. OR you can win+q and start typing while you're in desktop mode. I never use metro, so I can't really talk about that. I'm not on a touch device for my desktop, though. I think MS just has a reputation for being "slow" and "clunky," despite the reality that it's a blazing fast OS and, once you adjust to the new UX, a really nice workflow. Just my 2¢.
- penguin42 13y ago
  Do people not realize you can "hit win key and start typing" in windows 7 too? I haven't clicked on "all programs" in months. It does seem they made the type-to-search faster/more comprehensive in win 8. But there's no need for that to be full screen. A win 7 style start menu with win 8 style search is the best of both worlds.
  - wambotron 13y ago
    It's definitely not the same search
    - JennyZ 13y ago
      Indeed, whereas in the start menu you could just search and press enter if the only result was a file to open it, with the start screen you will get a metro app showing results when you do do the same. I hate the full screen switch, I have 2 monitors and at least 2 apps visible on both, I don't want something to go full screen and hide everything I'm working with. I'm using classicshell and I'll probably keep using it after this update. Also sidenote: could they bring aero back as an option at least? I have a desktop with a mid-end graphics card, I really would like my desktop to not look worse than windows 95 did...
- zaroth 13y ago
morbius 13y ago
Completely OT, but I just realized how pleasant Nadella was at BUILD, and how much he stressed the importance of MS' relevance in the coming years. It's so refreshing seeing Microsoft establish a really solid brand identity; they've now got an in-house phone development program, and apart from that terrible Scroogled thing, their branding and marketing is fantastic. It's an aura I never got from Ballmer, who verged on either hostility or outright silliness. I'm extremely excited for the future of Microsoft, and backtracking on the Start Menu helps prove that they know what they're doing. Okay, NOW they know what they're doing.
MCarusi 13y ago
So it took them a year and a half to do what they did back in 1995. Well that's...really sad.
gulfie 13y ago
Yet another stunning advancement in the computer sciences. I wonder how Knuth will respond to being one upped.
romanovcode 13y ago
It's funny to see how people were crying for MS to bring back the Start menu right here, on HN some time ago. Yet now I see plenty of posts with "that is not a solution..". Can you ever be satisfied?
- slavik81 13y ago
  Have you considered that they might not be the same people? If they are, perhaps you should address them individually.
mrschwabe 13y ago
Dunno how any self-respecting nerd can accept Windows 8 knowing the direction that MS is taking the OS. No matter how many band-aids they slap on it, IMO the 'new direction' (or metro, or tablet UI or whatever you wanna call it) is and will always be Microsoft's way of controlling the UX on Windows to maximize the efficiency of their app store sales funnel. The end goal is obvious, a commission on every software transaction on the Windows platform ala Mac app store. If Microsoft was instead focused on the strengths of their OS rather than clamping down and being an Apple copy-cat I would have no problems continuing my support for Windows, a platform I've used since 3.1 Clearly though, they are going the other way. This sentiment is shared by Gabe Newell and it's no secret that Windows 8 was the catalyst for Valve's decision to shift efforts to Linux. I hope anyone else with Windows software will do the same.
- untaken 13y ago
  When I tried the public preview, my heart sank when I saw that "Store" icon in the start screen. The new UI I can deal with or customise - I've been developing since DOS, I'm sure I can get used to it. But please don't remove the very reason Windows became so popular: a relatively open ecosystem. As a result of that (and the destruction of VS), my personal projects are no longer under Windows, and my career is also shifting away from it. I'm not anti-MS - I was once their biggest cheerleader. I just don't like their direction.
  - bobbles 13y ago
    If having a store inside windows that becomes popular enough, there would be potential for windows to become free to install/use.. (hey pigs could fly) Would that alleviate concerns about it?
    - jenscow 13y ago
      The licence cost for Windows isn't exactly prohibitive (for the home user). That's an excellent point, however.
afhsfsfdsss88 13y ago
Leave it to Microsoft to do the right thing once it has exhausted all other alternatives.
Havoc 13y ago
Until they fix the retarded search I'm not interested. We've got powerful computers...wtf do you mean it can't search applications, control panel and docs in one go? It could under Win7...
dm2 13y ago
It's easy to add features but removing features will usually piss of consumers. I understand that they wanted a unified tablet and desktop OS but the way to do it would be to always use the tablet interface on tablets and offer the start menu and other traditional features as optional on first boot. Optional and advanced features are always welcome, but don't replace things I use daily without offering a way to use the old version. Maybe the new start menu / metro is better, but I don't have time TODAY to come to that conclusion myself. So I avoided Windows 8, because Windows 7 works and the time spent learning new things just didn't seem worth the new features. Good job Microsoft, thank you for fixing this. Windows 9 will be an important one. I personally think that they should look at what made Windows 2000, XP, and 7 so popular and focus on those features first. Look at what made Vista, ME, and 8 unpopular and avoid doing those things. That seems easy, good luck!
drivingmenuts 13y ago
Metro is pretty good on a tablet. It's horrible on a desktop. Here's hoping they don't fsck up the tablet (which they probably will).
dustinupdyke 13y ago
I wonder how much this is driven by true user feedback and by pack mentality by mass media. I use it, and for the life of me, can't see all the fuss.
kijin 13y ago
This will probably get buried, but I've been saying for months: I want Metro to be the default wallpaper on my desktop! (Anyone wish to turn Conky into a Metro app?) Add the usual wishlist item of allowing Metro apps to open in their own windows (perhaps only when you're in desktop mode), and that's as close to perfect integration as it gets between the two UI paradigms.
DigitalSea 13y ago
The start menu should never have been removed. Microsoft lost their way temporarily with Windows 8, in their minds everyone was using Windows 8 on Surface tablets and Windows Phone's, not on the desktop where 95% of their market probably is using Windows with a keyboard and mouse. My first purchase after buying Windows 8 was Stardock's Star8 which gave you back the start menu in Windows 8 and it only cost like $5. The fact I had to buy a separate application to bring back crucial functionality did irk we for a while, but it's good to see it's coming back eventually in its original form. Don't get me start on the atrocious context switching. There is nothing more annoying then downloading a video, double clicking to play it only to have it load in the full-screen Metro Windows Media Player, then once you're done to be dumped back at the Metro tile interface again where you have to click on the Desktop tile to get back to point A. I hope Windows 9 doesn't try and force new conventions that don't work on non-touch-screen devices again. Something tells me after the less than ideal Windows 8 sales figures, they won't make that same mistake twice.
hnriot 13y ago
Who still uses Windows!?! Linux at work, OSX in my bag. I couldn't bring myself to use Windows after all these years. 3.1 was great, since then it got worse every year. I gave up on Windows years ago. It's like still using Hadoop now we have Spark.
frozenport 13y ago
Slurm Queen: "Yes. Which is why we'll market it as New Slurm. Then, when everyone hates it, we'll bring back Slurm Classic and make billions!"
grn 13y ago
Why did they remove the menu at all? If removing it was such a bad idea then it would have come out in user research.
jon_black 13y ago
I'm seeing an increasing gap between what I need and what most people need. I haven't used a start menu for months since switching to i3wm and its dmenu, which is also making the mouse seem redundant for most tasks.
tonyblundell 13y ago
I still think that a lot of the fuss is because people don't realise you can just hit the windows key and start typing to search in Win8. It's much quicker than using a menu.
yiedyie 13y ago
This seems like the forty years in the desert, back and forth, it is not efficient(actually is deficient) but it makes a good story. I wonder why they dumped it for good in the first place why not make an option to chose when installing between the two interfaces.
throwwit 13y ago
They could've simply slowly transitioned to the 'metro' UI. Step 1. Make advanced window positioning integrated with OS. Step 2. Allow windows to fade into background (possibly live wallpaper). Step 3. Make the changes more efficient to overall usage. Driving Adoption.
ssmoot 13y ago
8 years ago I left behind .NET development and gaming PCs as a hobby for Ruby development on a Mac. I got into crypto-currency mining last year. As that became less profitable I decided to sell most of my mining hardware, keep one R290, and build a gaming rig. "Metro" (aside from forced full-screen) is the clean break Windows needed IMO. There were/are definitely usability issues with it, but mostly on the feature/app level IMO (it's difficult to know how to find the tool you're looking for in the new "Control Panel", it should not take minutes to figure out how to turn the computer off, etc). The biggest problem with it was that it was inconsistent. Steam is a "Desktop" app. For no reason besides MS apparently didn't force developers to go Metro. That results in a really awful experience for users. So this... bowing to the same crowd that said they'd never leave DOS for Windows '95. Or '95 for XP, or XP for Vista, and on and on... this is a huge mistake IMO. MS recommitting to a UX that's never really worked all that well, and at this point extremely dated.
- zanny 13y ago
  > MS recommitting to a UX that's never really worked all that well, and at this point extremely dated. At least a billion people have used and are experienced with the UX you claim as not working. I'd say that is probably the best metric of a working UX. And the lack of Windows 8 adoption is another testament to that. It doesn't matter if you think your next generation UI is an improvement, because there is one thing you can guarantee - if you are making radical UX changes, your userbase will not think it is an improvement. Change pisses people off, especially when they perceive it as unnecessary, and the Windows 8 UI mess came off to the vast majority of their userbase as unnecessary breakage of a 15 year UX their users came to expect.
  - ssmoot 13y ago
    More people have used and experienced CRTs. That doesn't make them superior. Just the state of the art for their time. You're right. It doesn't matter that I think that. It matters that OSX can get people to convert because Windows is stale and it's desktop doesn't work well. I didn't say "doesn't work". I said "well". Which is pretty subjective I guess, but I did qualify that it was an opinion so... OSX has made changes. Some successes, some failures. The only real constant is that it does tend to change (at least to a greater degree than Windows IME). Sure, MS may have the GM of operating systems on their hands. And there are a lot of GM fans with little Calvin & Hobbes stickers on their vehicles. That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement, and I'd be a lot happier as a PC user who only uses it for gaming if I never had to see the Windows Desktop experience again. But I guess I'll be waiting for SteamOS for that to happen. I mean, how many Xbox users want their much more Metro-like experience replaced with a standard Windows desktop? I never argued it wasn't disruptive to goto Metro. As someone who uses BSD (OpenBSD load balancers), Unix (SmartOS VM hosts), OSX, Ubuntu (VMs) and Windows routinely, I just place good, intuitive UX above familiarity. It's the reason why Ubuntu is one of my least favorite distros with their alternative user-space tools and /etc design, and why the Windows Desktop is easily my least favorite GUI environment.
quattrofan 13y ago
Be nice also to have an intuitive way to close a metro app you've accidently opened when in the desktop. I end up using task manager to get rid of them, escape maybe?
- dragoshell 13y ago
  Have you tried Alt+F4?
- tonyblundell 13y ago
  Drag from top of screen.
atmosx 13y ago
I've written about this[1] some time ago. When I used windows 8, was the first time that I had to read a tutorial online on how to perform every day tasks after ... maybe 10 years. I mean it's hilarious how bad the user experience of windows 8 in laptops with no touch screen is. [1] http://www.convalesco.org/blog/2014/03/24/microsoft-windows-8/ http://www.convalesco.org/blog/2014/03/24/microsoft-windows-...
namlem 13y ago
Honestly, I've grown to hate the start menu. I just want the launcher to be accessible with one gesture instead of two.

371 points by zastrowm 13y ago

Less blurry screenshot https://twitter.com/pouletfou51/status/451417213052809216/photo/1/large https://twitter.com/pouletfou51/status/451417213052809216/ph...

nacs 13y ago
Hopefully that Fisher-Price mess they have attached to the start menu can be disabled as well.
- TheLoneWolfling 13y ago
  I doubt it. As far as I can tell this is "just" another way of pushing Metro. Excuse me: the interface formerly known as Metro. "Oh, people complained about us forcing Metro. So let's introduce it more gradually!"
  - derefr 13y ago
    Before W8 was released, Metro may have just been something Microsoft was pushing. Now, however, developers have released third-party Metro apps, and people have these apps installed. Do you think Microsoft would unceremoniously disable access to every Metro-only app?
    - TheLoneWolfling 13y ago
      There is a difference between "supporting third-party metro apps if necessary" and "putting links to metro apps that have desktop-style equivalents all over the start menu"
  - vertex-four 13y ago
    Metro in itself isn't a terrible idea. Especially the idea of having a reduced runtime that can work across mobile/tablet/desktop. The poor idea was forcing full-screen on the desktop. Now that they're going back on that idea, by implementing the Start menu, allowing Metro apps to run in windows, and more properly integrating Metro with the desktop, it might actually be usable.
- bunderbunder 13y ago
  I doubt you'll be able to disable it, but presumably you could just remove all the tiles if you really don't want them. Personally I think it might be a good idea. It seems like a reboot of what Microsoft was going for with the Windows Sidebar (or the Start screen, obviously) in a format that actually works with desktop Windows's overall UI paradigm.
- derefr 13y ago
  I remember when people were switching from Windows Vista to Windows 7. Want to know what they missed the most? The sidebar widgets. There were all sorts of guides on how to get sidebar.exe running in W7. The basic premise of W8, if you ignore all the window-management stuff, is that they put your sidebar widgets inside your start menu, and made that your desktop (thus also obviating desktop shortcuts.) They may have implemented it horribly, but if the W8 start screen was the desktop--if your taskbar and windows displayed on top of it--I think it'd be the perfect UX for a desktop.
  - macspoofing 13y ago
    >Want to know what they missed the most? The sidebar widgets. Some people missed widgets. By W7 widgets were pretty much dead.
- Too 13y ago
  That blue and green combo really gave me vibes of windows xp, that is not a good thing.
bluthru 13y ago
I'd like to see them incorporate the recycle bin into the taskbar, similar to the dock in OS X.
deletes 13y ago
right click >> Properties >> Disable metro I hope there is an obscure setting somewhere that would disable metro completely. As a programmer I see no benefit to it.
gordaco 13y ago
TBH I still find it very ugly, but then again I've disliked flat design since the first moment I've seen it. I know I'm pretty much a caveman (and a minority) in this sense, but I really like the old, classic, sober windows 9x look and feel, so much that I doubt I'd use a new version of Windows that wouldn't allow me to use it. I'd rather do away completely with Modern UI in the desktop, but it seems some people like it; the more config options given, the better, at least for power users.

daigoba66 13y ago

It's interesting how similar it is to some of the concepts from this often linked write-up: http://jaymachalani.com/blog/2013/12/12/fixing-windows-8 http://jaymachalani.com/blog/2013/12/12/fixing-windows-8

zastrowm 13y ago
I'd hope they take more influence from the write-up, however. I like that they'll allow Windowed apps, but their current implementation now looks like they crammed together Metro and Windows 7 without any polish. The write-up, however, has a nice cohesive experience. Of course, Microsoft's startup menu is probably early alpha, so it's a moot point.
tsurantino 13y ago
This is definitely better. One subtle thing that it takes into account that's different from the Microsoft screenshot is that the current Microsoft version has two shortcuts for the Start Menu - the pinned start items separated by a line and the live tiles. Jay put the live tiles where the items are currently separated by the line to make that cohesive experience. I really hope they move forward with that design for the next update.

rayiner 13y ago

Microsoft just needs to copy Apple here. Have a desktop, but let Metro apps run in either a window or full screen in another desktop. Voila: integration of Metro and the desktop in a way that doesn't suck.

FreezerburnV 13y ago
That's coming in an update. Which is also mentioned in the article and shown in the image (look at the right-most window) :)
antonioevans 13y ago
I don't agree. Metro doesn't make sense if you have a desktop with apps on it. It's redundant. I have no access to the numbers but in my office no one uses the Apps except weather. Trying to create a ubiquitous system for tablets/phones/desktop ignores how people use each device.
- kabdib 13y ago
  It's worse than redundant, it gets in the way. I upgraded to 8.1 from Win7 last week. My first experience trying to compare a PDF document with text file in another editor was quite unpleasant (Metro essentially makes apps modal, which is nuts).
  - bunderbunder 13y ago
    That's where the grandparent's idea of being able to run Don't-Call-it-Metro apps in a windowed mode comes into play. Doesn't seem like it should be hard for Microsoft to accomplish. Metro's already supposed to be resolution-independent, so all that's really accomplished by forcing them to be fullscreen on desktop monitors is keeping ease of task switching and information density to an absolute minimum.
  - dangrossman 13y ago
    You can have Metro apps side-by-side, including next to your desktop apps, right now. Just grab from the top of the screen and drag left or right. http://i.imgur.com/3IwDXVA.png http://i.imgur.com/3IwDXVA.png Or, don't use Reader. The inclusion of a free PDF reader app with your computer purchase doesn't get in the way of using a desktop program instead.

momentarily 13y ago

Metro should have been device-aware (and still, toggleable) from the very beginning. You can't impose a touch interface on desktop devices any more than you can impose a desktop interface on touch devices. Microsoft tried that, too, with Windows CE. It didn't work so well.

r00fus 13y ago

Good news, but why did it take so long for MS to grok this? So far every single piece of news since Ballmer's abdication has shown clue.

Too 13y ago
When making such a major change its hard to know if people don't like it simply because "its not like it used to be" or if it really isn't good. Only way to distinguish between those two is to wait. I still see people today who configure windows explorer to show the menu bar, this was removed (default to hidden) in windows vista and there's basically nothing on that menu that can't be done in fewer mouse clicks elsewhere. These people don't even use the menu themselves, they are just used to seeing it there.
Haul4ss 13y ago
And every single piece of that news started under Ballmer's tenure. The new guy has been there < 60 days. The stuff they're announcing now was started months if not years ago.
RandallBrown 13y ago
Microsoft has nearly 100,000 employees. The company moves at a glacial pace, so changes like this that might seem small to you, will actually take quite some time.
- clauretano 13y ago
  and nearly 100,000 additional "dash trash" workers.

praseodym 13y ago

The Verge thinks this will be part of Windows 9 instead: http://www.theverge.com/2014/4/2/5574830/windows-9-start-menu-new-desktop-experience http://www.theverge.com/2014/4/2/5574830/windows-9-start-men...

acqq 13y ago
The Verge link doesn't mention Windows 9 anymore. And the screenshot actually contains the "Windows 8.1 Enterprise Build 9600" string (check the right corner). https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BkPBkEXCcAEIbN4.png:large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BkPBkEXCcAEIbN4.png:large

Crito 13y ago

It's always nice to see UI/UX people respond to user input and admit when they are wrong, rather than berate their users for not understanding the product. This sort of humbleness seems to be becoming increasingly rare. In the past Microsoft has done well for themselves by listening to their business users and prioritizing their concerns about backwards compatibility. I hope this revert represents a natural continuation of that policy.

soup10 13y ago
Except they've added all that metro crap to the already cluttered start menu. Their UI team is still a long way from acknowledging the failure of integrating metro with the desktop; and windows 8 will continue to be a mess until they do.
- sonnyz 13y ago
  Hopefully they'll have an option to use a smaller start menu, like in the past.
- bratsche 13y ago
  Metro itself wasn't the problem though, imo. It's the UX of going back and forth to do simple tasks that is the problem. Example: how do you restart or shutdown your Windows 8.1 machine when you're on the desktop? Go to the start screen. Click your name, sign out, click the screen so it 'opens', click the power button, click restart or shutdown from the menu.
  - TheCoreh 13y ago
    Or just go to the bottom right corner of the screen, wait for the charms bar to pop up, click the Preferences icon then shutdown. Which still doesn't make a lot of sense, but is simpler than what you described.
    - jsight 13y ago
      Or just press the power button, which actually does make a lot of sense. There are a lot of things about Metro that I dislike, but killing the "don't touch the power button on a computer" idiom is one that I do like.

darrenkopp 13y ago

After using Windows 8 since release, I kind of prefer the current start menu to the old school one, but I guess I'm in the minority.

ryanoshea 13y ago
I agree. There's no lost functionality with the new screen, except not being able to see your desktop while you're in the Start screen. Let's think about what you can do in the traditional start menu: - search for and browse for applications and settings (you can do this in the start screen) - have quick access to favorite programs (this is what tiles are for) - have quick access to settings shortcuts, like "Devices and Printers" (you can search for these) - shut down/standby/power commands (these have been moved to a charm, but will return in 8.1 Update 1) The only thing that has been changed, that people might not like, is the design, the layout, and possibly the change in UX getting from the start screen to a given action. But as far as I can see, every action you'd want to do on the start screen is just as accessible as it was in Windows 7. To me, pressing the Start key on my keyboard and typing the first few letters of literally anything I want to do on my system is the most important UX component of Windows 8 & 8.1. Windows Vista introduced it, Windows 7 improved it, and now 8 and 8.1 made it shinier and faster. It's amazing to me how many people I see trying to use their computers without taking advantage of this functionality. Of course, I might have just forgotten something. But it seems like people are mostly just complaining because it's different, regardless of whether it's actually worse.
- DerpDerpDerp 13y ago
  Traversing the start screen menus without being able to see a webpage is a major downside for trying to figure out how to deal with their stupid settings layout, which is itself a second major downside to Windows 8. Had they not spread settings between 2-3 different places, or left the menus being intuitive to make adjustments to the system, it might have been fine. But there's been several times I've had to resort to the internet to disable "helpful" features (like "power saving" by toggling my wifi on the desktop), and constantly toggling between the menu screen and the webbrowser because the menu ran full screen was rather annoying. Not a good way to convince me you've made a good menu layout change.

tdicola 13y ago

I'm fascinated that they still keep the Building Windows 8 blog up these days. You can go back and read their justifications on why they made the major changes that are now being backed out of win 8, for example start menu: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/10/11/reflecting-on-your-comments-on-the-start-screen.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/10/11/reflecting-on-... and http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/10/03/evolving-the-start-menu.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/10/03/evolving-the-s... I would love to see an analysis of how with so much data and insight they built something people didn't want. Was it all just confirmation bias causing them to see what they wanted in the data?

drzaiusapelord 13y ago
Isn't a PR blog, by definition, more than a little disingenuous? I imagine certain data was cherry-picked to tow the party line (Ballmer?) but now with the new talent coming into power, things are changing.
- untog 13y ago
  I imagine certain data was cherry-picked to tow the party line There isn't any evidence of that. The far more interesting possibility is that the data suggested that they do what they did, but that the data was wrong. An examination of how and why that might be the case would be fascinating. As opposed to saying "typical Ballmer!"
  - unreal37 13y ago
    I believe they were tricked by the data. "Only 1.2% of users use this feature, so we got rid of it!" And they did that 100 times with 100 different features. And pissed everyone off.
    - throwawaymsft 13y ago
      Exactly: "The z key is only used in 1.2% of keystrokes, let's remove it! (It's a power user feature available using alt + ASCII code)" With data-driven ui decisions, it's not so easy to see these fallacies when staring at a spreadsheet.

adamwong246 13y ago

Never understood the fixation with the start menu. You start up metro and you are greeted with all those tiles- that is the new Start Menu. Why is that so confusing?

jamesaguilar 13y ago
It's not confusing. It's unnecessary and difficult to navigate with a mouse.
- tdicola 13y ago
  Also very annoying to be thrown out of your app when you just want to run a calculator or something small. Even more annoying when that calculator has to run full screen (or you have to waste time snapping it to some side).
  - stackcollision 13y ago
    I haven't actually used Windows 8 because I've heard it's so terrible. What I don't understand is this: > In the future, all of Microsoft’s Universal Windows apps will also run in a window. What does this mean? Are you telling me that every program I run in Windows 8 is full screen? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The OS is called WINDOWS.
    - vertex-four 13y ago
      Every Metro app is full-screen, every normal Windows app runs in the desktop. It's remarkably annoying to have both paradigms forced on you.
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    When I want a calculator, I type: Windows Key -> "calc" -> Enter Viola, the classic Windows calculator.
    - mullingitover 13y ago

skreech 13y ago

When using a touchscreen on a 13" ultrabook, the Win 8 start menu actually makes a lot of sense.

matt_heimer 13y ago
But forcing a touchscreen UI on everybody that doesn't have one is dumb. I don't see why they are trying to combine the two. Simply detect the form-factor, default to either the Metro or Win7 UI based on that and given people the option to switch.
- teamonkey 13y ago
  I reckon, and I'm sure Microsoft and Apple do too, that screens without touch input will die out pretty quickly. Certainly within the lifespan of Win8 touch will be the norm. And the Windows desktop in its current form is awful for touch screens, so it too will die out. Expect similar updates from Apple soon.
  - userbinator 13y ago
    And we'll be expected to stretch our arms up to touch ever-larger-growing screens all day long? At the moment I'm sitting in front of a pair of 27" monitors. Trying to use a touchscreen that big for extended periods of time is just going to be fatiguing.
    - teamonkey 13y ago
      I'm not saying it's going to replace mouse and keyboard but a screen that doesn't support touch at all will soon feel archaic. Even now I often find myself absent-mindedly trying to close windows with my finger on my dual-screen setup. Remember that the ergonomics of a traditional workstation are driven by decades of mouse and keyboard input. As touch becomes more popular the layout will change to support that.

marknutter 13y ago

Might as well never change anything, ever. Sigh..

fournm 13y ago
The Microsoft conundrum: Every UI, interaction, and functionality must always stay the exact same and never change or be iterated upon/refined, but why aren't they trying anything to meet X demand or Y new thing.
- vertex-four 13y ago
  There's plenty of new non-Metro-related functionality in Windows 8 that nobody ever complains about. Especially on the management side of things. Of course, people who'd actually use that functionality don't use Windows 8 because of Metro.

GrinningFool 13y ago

The problem isn't the start menu. A fullscreen searchable start menu is something people have likely gotten used to - except for a vocal minority. The problem is the context switching. Some apps full screen (even when they don't make sense or I want them part screen). Some control panel stuff in 'apps' (which requires full screen); some still in the old control panel. Some in both. Somewhere along the way someone started thinking the whole 'single task at a time [or at most two]' was a Good Thing - but then someone else said that we can't do that, and what we got was the ugly bastard child of both. I've stopped booting Windows, haven't done so even for gaming in a couple of months now. It's just too annoying at 8.x. edit: before someone calls me on it, why no I did not read the article - I've since gone back and done so, and it sounds like they'll be offering windowed mode for metro apps as well. So I take it back, this has the potential to make it far less annoying (if they consistently make it available for all metro apps).

DerpDerpDerp 13y ago
I mostly agree with your opinion about why Windows 8 was bad. A full screen, searchable start menu isn't the worst thing - though it does mean I can't be read a webpage while looking for something (which is a slight loss on usability). This is just a special case of your point about only being able to do one (or two) things at a time, when on a desktop, I really want to be able to 4 or 5. It seems like an interface designed for a tablet stapled (badly) to a completely different interface. Another problem is that they spread settings across 2 or 3 different places, hid things like shut down commands (because, you know, I'm never going to be shutting down my desktop!), and generally broke any consistency/sensibility to how the controls interface with the system.
- jimmaswell 13y ago
  I end up dragging things onto/onto items on to open with/off the start menu enough that that was a major annoyance having it take up the whole screen.
- bunderbunder 13y ago
  > A full screen, searchable start menu isn't the worst thing No, but it's a symptom of the worst thing. The worst thing is that Microsoft's UX team failed to realize that "The user's actually only interacting with this one thing right now" does not necessarily imply "This one thing is the only thing that deserves to even be visible right now."

amercade 13y ago

Why not use windows 7 instead of 8? What can I get from 8.1 that 7 doesn't have? Other than a UI that I don't like very much.

bratsche 13y ago

I know naming is tough, but couldn't they have called this something else? Windows 8.2? Windows 8.1.1 even?

joshbert 13y ago

I'm all for flat design should the context call for it. I don't feel like Windows 8 calls for it. I feel like that start menu looks infantile and cluttered. Yes Microsoft, we get it, you invented metro. Stop trying to push it on us on the desktop.

Pxtl 13y ago

This seems like the wrong solution to the problem. Merging the start menu with the desktop as a full-screen launcher was a great idea - the start menu is effectively a modal interface so it only makes sense to make it fullscreen, and the old "icons on the desktop" thing in Windows has always been a misfeature. My problem is its terrible integration with old Windows apps, drawing a hard line between "Metro" applications and "Windows Desktop" applications. The other stuff is just mechanical problems with pretending that an 11" screen is the same as a desktop monitor. Give me an always-visible taskbar, one that uses words instead of pictograms. I've got 2 23" monitors - I've got the space to dedicate some of that room to a taskbar. Also showing multiple applications at a time.

acqq 13y ago
Full screen swap for some short term action is never a good idea on the 24 inch screen. I understand you only if you assume the use of 7 inch device.

frik 13y ago

Finally, it took Redmond two Windows releases. It's good that the "metro" apps now run in window-mode too next to Win32 apps. Though, I wonder if Metro apps will be around in Win9. They could shut it down like Silverlight and the Vista/7 desktop gadgets. Instead of metro apps, saving websites to desktop (links) like in Win7 and FirefoxOS would make a lot more sense (IMHO).

druidsbane 13y ago

I think this is a great move, but why not enhance the run dialog so it works like Spotlight does on OSX: minimal, you type and it automatically searches. I like the start menu because its smaller than the start screen, but I prefer my launcher to be as tiny and powerful as possible without fullscreen flashing. Also, it lets me use the launcher to type in things that I can see from other windows, eg: calculations, paths, etc...

ape4 13y ago

Windows 8 - no start button or menu Windows 8.1 - added the start button but has Metro menu Windows 8.2 - merges old start menu and Metro menu Windows 8.3 - Same as Windows 7 (hopefully)

frik 13y ago
Windows 9 - coexistence of Win32 and HTML5 web apps; abandon metro WinRT API (like done before with Vista/7 desktop gadgets, Silverlight, etc.)

tericho 13y ago

All I want is to be able to open the calculator or preview a photo without it taking up my whole 24" screen and forcing me to ALT+F4.

wambotron 13y ago

I don't really think adding in the start menu is the answer. I've been using Win 8 since release candidate and, although I was annoyed at first, I soon grew to enjoy the new UX. When I use Win 7 now, the thing that annoys me the most is that damn start menu. It's clunky and feels like a chore to navigate through. In Win 8, you can switch over to the metro screen with the Win key, start typing and BAM. OR you can win+q and start typing while you're in desktop mode. I never use metro, so I can't really talk about that. I'm not on a touch device for my desktop, though. I think MS just has a reputation for being "slow" and "clunky," despite the reality that it's a blazing fast OS and, once you adjust to the new UX, a really nice workflow. Just my 2¢.

penguin42 13y ago
Do people not realize you can "hit win key and start typing" in windows 7 too? I haven't clicked on "all programs" in months. It does seem they made the type-to-search faster/more comprehensive in win 8. But there's no need for that to be full screen. A win 7 style start menu with win 8 style search is the best of both worlds.
- wambotron 13y ago
  It's definitely not the same search
  - JennyZ 13y ago
    Indeed, whereas in the start menu you could just search and press enter if the only result was a file to open it, with the start screen you will get a metro app showing results when you do do the same. I hate the full screen switch, I have 2 monitors and at least 2 apps visible on both, I don't want something to go full screen and hide everything I'm working with. I'm using classicshell and I'll probably keep using it after this update. Also sidenote: could they bring aero back as an option at least? I have a desktop with a mid-end graphics card, I really would like my desktop to not look worse than windows 95 did...
zaroth 13y ago

morbius 13y ago

Completely OT, but I just realized how pleasant Nadella was at BUILD, and how much he stressed the importance of MS' relevance in the coming years. It's so refreshing seeing Microsoft establish a really solid brand identity; they've now got an in-house phone development program, and apart from that terrible Scroogled thing, their branding and marketing is fantastic. It's an aura I never got from Ballmer, who verged on either hostility or outright silliness. I'm extremely excited for the future of Microsoft, and backtracking on the Start Menu helps prove that they know what they're doing. Okay, NOW they know what they're doing.

MCarusi 13y ago

So it took them a year and a half to do what they did back in 1995. Well that's...really sad.

gulfie 13y ago

Yet another stunning advancement in the computer sciences. I wonder how Knuth will respond to being one upped.

romanovcode 13y ago

It's funny to see how people were crying for MS to bring back the Start menu right here, on HN some time ago. Yet now I see plenty of posts with "that is not a solution..". Can you ever be satisfied?

slavik81 13y ago
Have you considered that they might not be the same people? If they are, perhaps you should address them individually.

mrschwabe 13y ago

Dunno how any self-respecting nerd can accept Windows 8 knowing the direction that MS is taking the OS. No matter how many band-aids they slap on it, IMO the 'new direction' (or metro, or tablet UI or whatever you wanna call it) is and will always be Microsoft's way of controlling the UX on Windows to maximize the efficiency of their app store sales funnel. The end goal is obvious, a commission on every software transaction on the Windows platform ala Mac app store. If Microsoft was instead focused on the strengths of their OS rather than clamping down and being an Apple copy-cat I would have no problems continuing my support for Windows, a platform I've used since 3.1 Clearly though, they are going the other way. This sentiment is shared by Gabe Newell and it's no secret that Windows 8 was the catalyst for Valve's decision to shift efforts to Linux. I hope anyone else with Windows software will do the same.

untaken 13y ago
When I tried the public preview, my heart sank when I saw that "Store" icon in the start screen. The new UI I can deal with or customise - I've been developing since DOS, I'm sure I can get used to it. But please don't remove the very reason Windows became so popular: a relatively open ecosystem. As a result of that (and the destruction of VS), my personal projects are no longer under Windows, and my career is also shifting away from it. I'm not anti-MS - I was once their biggest cheerleader. I just don't like their direction.
- bobbles 13y ago
  If having a store inside windows that becomes popular enough, there would be potential for windows to become free to install/use.. (hey pigs could fly) Would that alleviate concerns about it?
  - jenscow 13y ago
    The licence cost for Windows isn't exactly prohibitive (for the home user). That's an excellent point, however.

afhsfsfdsss88 13y ago

Leave it to Microsoft to do the right thing once it has exhausted all other alternatives.

Havoc 13y ago

Until they fix the retarded search I'm not interested. We've got powerful computers...wtf do you mean it can't search applications, control panel and docs in one go? It could under Win7...

dm2 13y ago

It's easy to add features but removing features will usually piss of consumers. I understand that they wanted a unified tablet and desktop OS but the way to do it would be to always use the tablet interface on tablets and offer the start menu and other traditional features as optional on first boot. Optional and advanced features are always welcome, but don't replace things I use daily without offering a way to use the old version. Maybe the new start menu / metro is better, but I don't have time TODAY to come to that conclusion myself. So I avoided Windows 8, because Windows 7 works and the time spent learning new things just didn't seem worth the new features. Good job Microsoft, thank you for fixing this. Windows 9 will be an important one. I personally think that they should look at what made Windows 2000, XP, and 7 so popular and focus on those features first. Look at what made Vista, ME, and 8 unpopular and avoid doing those things. That seems easy, good luck!

drivingmenuts 13y ago

Metro is pretty good on a tablet. It's horrible on a desktop. Here's hoping they don't fsck up the tablet (which they probably will).

dustinupdyke 13y ago

I wonder how much this is driven by true user feedback and by pack mentality by mass media. I use it, and for the life of me, can't see all the fuss.

kijin 13y ago

This will probably get buried, but I've been saying for months: I want Metro to be the default wallpaper on my desktop! (Anyone wish to turn Conky into a Metro app?) Add the usual wishlist item of allowing Metro apps to open in their own windows (perhaps only when you're in desktop mode), and that's as close to perfect integration as it gets between the two UI paradigms.

DigitalSea 13y ago

The start menu should never have been removed. Microsoft lost their way temporarily with Windows 8, in their minds everyone was using Windows 8 on Surface tablets and Windows Phone's, not on the desktop where 95% of their market probably is using Windows with a keyboard and mouse. My first purchase after buying Windows 8 was Stardock's Star8 which gave you back the start menu in Windows 8 and it only cost like $5. The fact I had to buy a separate application to bring back crucial functionality did irk we for a while, but it's good to see it's coming back eventually in its original form. Don't get me start on the atrocious context switching. There is nothing more annoying then downloading a video, double clicking to play it only to have it load in the full-screen Metro Windows Media Player, then once you're done to be dumped back at the Metro tile interface again where you have to click on the Desktop tile to get back to point A. I hope Windows 9 doesn't try and force new conventions that don't work on non-touch-screen devices again. Something tells me after the less than ideal Windows 8 sales figures, they won't make that same mistake twice.

hnriot 13y ago

Who still uses Windows!?! Linux at work, OSX in my bag. I couldn't bring myself to use Windows after all these years. 3.1 was great, since then it got worse every year. I gave up on Windows years ago. It's like still using Hadoop now we have Spark.

frozenport 13y ago

Slurm Queen: "Yes. Which is why we'll market it as New Slurm. Then, when everyone hates it, we'll bring back Slurm Classic and make billions!"

grn 13y ago

Why did they remove the menu at all? If removing it was such a bad idea then it would have come out in user research.

jon_black 13y ago

I'm seeing an increasing gap between what I need and what most people need. I haven't used a start menu for months since switching to i3wm and its dmenu, which is also making the mouse seem redundant for most tasks.

tonyblundell 13y ago

I still think that a lot of the fuss is because people don't realise you can just hit the windows key and start typing to search in Win8. It's much quicker than using a menu.

yiedyie 13y ago

This seems like the forty years in the desert, back and forth, it is not efficient(actually is deficient) but it makes a good story. I wonder why they dumped it for good in the first place why not make an option to chose when installing between the two interfaces.

throwwit 13y ago

They could've simply slowly transitioned to the 'metro' UI. Step 1. Make advanced window positioning integrated with OS. Step 2. Allow windows to fade into background (possibly live wallpaper). Step 3. Make the changes more efficient to overall usage. Driving Adoption.

ssmoot 13y ago

8 years ago I left behind .NET development and gaming PCs as a hobby for Ruby development on a Mac. I got into crypto-currency mining last year. As that became less profitable I decided to sell most of my mining hardware, keep one R290, and build a gaming rig. "Metro" (aside from forced full-screen) is the clean break Windows needed IMO. There were/are definitely usability issues with it, but mostly on the feature/app level IMO (it's difficult to know how to find the tool you're looking for in the new "Control Panel", it should not take minutes to figure out how to turn the computer off, etc). The biggest problem with it was that it was inconsistent. Steam is a "Desktop" app. For no reason besides MS apparently didn't force developers to go Metro. That results in a really awful experience for users. So this... bowing to the same crowd that said they'd never leave DOS for Windows '95. Or '95 for XP, or XP for Vista, and on and on... this is a huge mistake IMO. MS recommitting to a UX that's never really worked all that well, and at this point extremely dated.

zanny 13y ago
> MS recommitting to a UX that's never really worked all that well, and at this point extremely dated. At least a billion people have used and are experienced with the UX you claim as not working. I'd say that is probably the best metric of a working UX. And the lack of Windows 8 adoption is another testament to that. It doesn't matter if you think your next generation UI is an improvement, because there is one thing you can guarantee - if you are making radical UX changes, your userbase will not think it is an improvement. Change pisses people off, especially when they perceive it as unnecessary, and the Windows 8 UI mess came off to the vast majority of their userbase as unnecessary breakage of a 15 year UX their users came to expect.
- ssmoot 13y ago
  More people have used and experienced CRTs. That doesn't make them superior. Just the state of the art for their time. You're right. It doesn't matter that I think that. It matters that OSX can get people to convert because Windows is stale and it's desktop doesn't work well. I didn't say "doesn't work". I said "well". Which is pretty subjective I guess, but I did qualify that it was an opinion so... OSX has made changes. Some successes, some failures. The only real constant is that it does tend to change (at least to a greater degree than Windows IME). Sure, MS may have the GM of operating systems on their hands. And there are a lot of GM fans with little Calvin & Hobbes stickers on their vehicles. That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement, and I'd be a lot happier as a PC user who only uses it for gaming if I never had to see the Windows Desktop experience again. But I guess I'll be waiting for SteamOS for that to happen. I mean, how many Xbox users want their much more Metro-like experience replaced with a standard Windows desktop? I never argued it wasn't disruptive to goto Metro. As someone who uses BSD (OpenBSD load balancers), Unix (SmartOS VM hosts), OSX, Ubuntu (VMs) and Windows routinely, I just place good, intuitive UX above familiarity. It's the reason why Ubuntu is one of my least favorite distros with their alternative user-space tools and /etc design, and why the Windows Desktop is easily my least favorite GUI environment.

quattrofan 13y ago

Be nice also to have an intuitive way to close a metro app you've accidently opened when in the desktop. I end up using task manager to get rid of them, escape maybe?

dragoshell 13y ago
Have you tried Alt+F4?
tonyblundell 13y ago
Drag from top of screen.

atmosx 13y ago

I've written about this[1] some time ago. When I used windows 8, was the first time that I had to read a tutorial online on how to perform every day tasks after ... maybe 10 years. I mean it's hilarious how bad the user experience of windows 8 in laptops with no touch screen is. [1] http://www.convalesco.org/blog/2014/03/24/microsoft-windows-8/ http://www.convalesco.org/blog/2014/03/24/microsoft-windows-...

namlem 13y ago

Honestly, I've grown to hate the start menu. I just want the launcher to be accessible with one gesture instead of two.