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Prominent GitHub Engineer Quits, Alleging Gender-Based Harassment
- iwasphone 13y ago> The controversy calls to mind that of Adria Richards last year False.
- chris_wot 13y agoI have to agree. Adria Richards took a picture of two guys then posted the, to twitter, complaining about a conversation the two were having that possibly contained sexual innuendo. The same sort that she made on twitter earlier. In this case, someone has quit and said that a company hasn't been doing the right thing. That's a far more ethical stance to make. Mind you, I've no idea what the issues were/are.
- stevenleeg 13y agoYeah I'm curious as to why they included that at the end... It's a pretty bold claim, it doesn't add to the article, and there's nothing to back up what they're saying. It just adds to the shoddy journalism of recode. Seems like we have a pretty lame situation here being documented by pretty lame journalists.
- crassus 13y agoThe fact that feminists still rally behind Adria discredits the movement. Meanwhile, all sane male engineers will be walking the other way when they see Adria at a tech conference.
- FaisalAbid 13y agoDisgusting. I don't know how in 2014 we still judge people by their gender or sexuality. All businesses should really care about is if the employee is a value add to the company. Male or Female, it should not matter. Disgusting GitHub, didn't expect this from you.
- chris_wot 13y agoExpecting what exactly? What did they do?
- romanovcode 13y agoI also am mind-boggeled about this. She said so many times how bad her employees were treating her but she never said exactly what they were doing.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- chris_wot 13y agoShe may not be easily able to.
- ebfe 13y ago>All businesses should really care about is if the employee is a value add to the company. It's funny, the designer in the article fought against just that. http://www.businessinsider.com/githubs-ceo-ditches-meritocracy-rug-2014-1 http://www.businessinsider.com/githubs-ceo-ditches-meritocra...
- rds2000 13y agoFemales != Feminists Going into a workplace with a feminist agenda is a distraction and problem waiting to happen. Twitter Followers != Engineer https://github.com/nrrrdcore https://github.com/nrrrdcore - she didn't even have any code. She's not a prominent engineer IMO. More of a marketer / enthusiast type. Edit: Does anyone here have proof of gender discrimination or she was a good engineer?
- eropple 13y agoGoing into a workplace with the idea that everyone should be treated fairly and equally is a distraction and a problem waiting to happen? "Feminism" isn't "women better, dudes worse." (And the always popular implication that people who aren't engineers don't matter...)
- rds2000 13y ago> the always popular implication that people who aren't engineers don't matter There is also the popular implication when there is a girl on twitter starting trouble again, they're not coding and trying to claim some form of discrimination, instead of developing programming skill.
- eropple 13y agoImplied by the deranged, yes. Are you deranged? You can't--and obviously I mean in the "if you're a basically functioning, mostly vertebrate human being it's morally repugnant" sense of "can't", not the physical, over-literal sense that I feel like you're going to use--blame shitty workplace behaviors (and this isn't the first I've heard of GitHub having problems) on people not knowing how to code. I mean, what kind of world do you want to live in where you can excuse mistreating people because they don't "develop programming skill"? Actually, don't answer that. I don't want to know what kind of world you want to live in.
- nav1 13y agoHow is she starting trouble? I suppose not being harassed at work is not too much to ask for, is it? What does programming even have to do with it?
- karangoeluw 13y agoThere is no proof (yet). So let's not make a big deal and judge neither Julie nor Github unless something solid comes out.
- erkl 13y agoIf a publicly distributed first-hand account by the person in question isn't "solid proof," what exactly are you looking for? What reason do you have to think she's being anything less than truthful?
- peterb 13y agoThere are three sides to every story. In this case there is her side, github's side and the truth. It is not that someone is lying, it is that people perceive things differently and it takes time to detangle perceptions to reach the truth. Let's wait for the truth before casting stones in either direction ...
- patrickaljord 13y agoAn accusation is not a proof, at least not in any civilized country. As for your other question, it's hard to prove a negative but if you want reasons, well, github doesn't have any past record of sexism and no one has ever quit from github. So the least we can do is give them the benefit of the doubt, right? Or shall we grab our pitchforks?
- jacalata 13y agoThe corollary of your benefit of the doubt for github is "Horvath is probably lying or at best mistaken." Why is that your default assumption?
- MetaCosm 13y agoBecause for two years she said the opposite? She is, was, or is and was obviously lying, it is just a matter of when and how much. Was she lying before when she said everything was awesome, or is she lying now? You could play the super long odds, everything was AWESOME for the past two years, but just turned awful. Then she was only lying now (because "I've been harassed by 'leadership' at GitHub for two years..."). That would paint her in the absolute best light, and it IMHO, rather unrealistic. You could even play the super-super long odds, and assume everything she said before was a lie (said it was good, it was actually awful) and then things BECAME good recently and she doubled-down on lying and said things were bad. ... in my case, it isn't an assumption. It is a expectation based on prior behavior.
- apetresc 13y agoHow can I take the article seriously when it says that "GitHub has been embroiled in a series of diversity controversies, such as programmers adding racial and sexist slurs into their code", which links to an article where someone took GitHub search and found random people putting bad words into their public repos? This author can't seem to distinguish between the code employees at GitHub write, and code users put onto GitHub.
- tomasien 13y agoThat bit needs to go. This about workplace abuse, a tremendously more serious matter as it relates to Github than what non-Github employees put in the code Github hosts
- lobotryas 13y ago>This [is] about workplace abuse Alleged workplace abuse. Let's wait for a statement from GitHub before we grab our pitchforks.
- tomasien 13y agoI'm not waiting for a statement from Github, I'm waiting for a statement from ANYONE. Julie has written some tweets, but we don't even have her side of the story yet. I'm not grabbing my pitchfork, I'm saying people putting the word "bitch" in open source code hosted on Github has NOTHING to do with this story and is going to distract from a serious issue - as it clearly already has. re.code is usually better than this
- rdtsc 13y agoInteresting point. Let's say I am an open source developer and I put some crazy stuff on Github. Some journalist does a profile on me. Am I a "Github Software Developer" to them? * Google Name -- "aha, link to Github" * Find crazy stuff checked into Github repos. * Google Github -- "aha, technology company something something distributed ... eyes glaze over technical mumbo jumbo". * Claim I am a "Github Engineer" It is obvious to us how it works, but say someone who has no idea about repos or open source will not quite understand the separation between user content and platform.
- daigoba66 13y agoReporting based on unconfirmed reports and allegations from twitter is the best kind of reporting. I'm not saying there is not a story here, yet. But let's wait until there are some facts to report.
- yarou 13y agoBasically, how any incompetent person behaves in the workplace. People getting shit done don't have time for this nonsense.
- phaer 13y agoYou mean people who are productive don't have time to harass other people? That does not sound convincing, because there a plenty or documented events were that happened. Or do you mean, people who are productive don't have time to defend themselves against harassment? In this case you are definitely blaming the wrong people because you should blame those who still don't manage to keep the workplace, and the rest of society, free of sexism, racism and so on.
- intortus 13y agoNo, people who are productive don't get harassed. Meritocracy, bro!
- TrainedMonkey 13y agoArticle looks sensationalist without any concrete details, however I will reserve my judgement and wait for more information before condemning either party.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- patrickaljord 13y agoFTA: "Nonetheless, GitHub has been embroiled in a series of diversity controversies, such as programmers adding racial and sexist slurs into their code" This links to a gizmodo article linking to random open source code on Github written by random people on the internet containing slurs. How is that Github's fault exactly? Should they censor "git push" with anti-slurs filters? This even links to a repo containing a list of words that should not be used by the user https://github.com/hhzl/Cuis-Smalltalk-StyledTextEditor/tree/fe8aa4a8459618feae1d1bd615c8938b7ad0a866/scowl-7.1/misc https://github.com/hhzl/Cuis-Smalltalk-StyledTextEditor/tree... Ridiculous. No idea about the rest of the accusations though.
- alanh 13y agoOh, cool. I just realized I am lucky to not be listed in Leslie Horn’s terrible "article" [1]. I forked a URL shortener a few years ago. One feature I added was to avoid auto-generating offensive short URLs, which is on GitHub [2]. (In the early days of URL shorteners, TinyURL used a simple increment function to generate URLs (aa, ab, ac, …), and someone waited until "the C word" was up next and pointed it at the then-First Lady's website, apparently as a joke. Okay, that's easy enough to learn from.) [1]: http://gizmodo.com/5980842/there-is-blatant-racist-and-sexist-language-in-github-code http://gizmodo.com/5980842/there-is-blatant-racist-and-sexis... [2]: https://github.com/alanhogan/lessnmore/blob/master/-/banned_words.php https://github.com/alanhogan/lessnmore/blob/master/-/banned_...
- codelap 13y agoI've worked in healthy and unhealthy work environments, the healthy ones have ample diversity, and the unhealthy ones were heavily male dominant. When I worked for Dell, it was so heavily skewed that several of the female workers felt unsafe, and I would walk them to their cars. Little boys who would otherwise sit in the corner at the bar and completely avoid actual interaction with women get very brave when they have 30 of their friends backing them. It was disgusting. You do what you can, but senior leadership is ultimately responsible for the tone and the hiring/firing. I on several occasions brought complaints from what I had seen, I know the women had as well, and not a single person was ever fired for this.
- hackinthebochs 13y ago> I on several occasions brought complaints from what I had seen, I know the women had as well, and not a single person was ever fired for this. Can you give more detail on what you had seen that you felt justified being fired over?
- codelap 13y agoWell, anywhere from unwarranted sexual touching (ass slaps), to coming up from behind and cozying up to a woman at her cubicle. These were all after the women had made it clear that this was inappropriate, though this shouldn't be required. Language was often beyond condescending, and often abusive and dismissive. One individual was particularly bad, he would get really upset if his advances (which could only have been learned from bad porno, they were so clueless and inappropriate), he would travel straight to verbal abuse and threats. The language was simply degrading. This same individual, was in the elevator when my friend who worked at another company, but same building. He got into the elevator with his wife, and the individual said something along the lines of "I bet you'd like it if I bent you over now. Let everyone here have a turn" to his wife. My buddy showed far more restraint than I would have.
- hackinthebochs 13y agoSomehow I was imagining something entirely different. That company should have been sued out of existence for allowing that to go on.
- revelation 13y agoBut, but, .. what do you mean? Just yesterday, that nice founder of GitHub showed us all of their mobile-first bring-your-life-into-work-and-never-leave tools for communication! It was all open and stuff! You mean there are still informal networks? Power gradients? Alliances? They lied to us!
- akerl_ 13y agoObvious troll is obvious.
- revelation 13y agoJust pointing out theres a difference between "we are actually this honest and open" and "we just hate accountability". GitHub seems to fall to the right of the divide.
- petercooper 13y agoValleywag did a more neutral job IMHO: http://valleywag.gawker.com/github-engineer-quits-after-alleging-gender-harassment-1544559154 http://valleywag.gawker.com/github-engineer-quits-after-alle... .. just a shame they are permanently shitlisted on HN because their quality has really gone up in the past six months.
- ohsnapman 13y agoI agree that Valleywag was more neutral, but I disagree that the quality of Valleywag has gone up. Does anyone remember the old Owen Thomas/Nick Denton era of Valleywag, when they would actually get insider scoops? Sam Biddle and Nitasha Tiku are nothing more than glorified repost kids trying to squeeze out pageviews.
- theorique 13y agoSam Biddle and Nitasha Tiku are nothing more than glorified repost kids trying to squeeze out pageviews. Agreed, to say nothing of the extreme left-wing bias that they bring to the table - wealth is automatically bad and suspect; startups are toxic, evil, and sexist; business needs to get out of San Francisco which would otherwise be a prosperous socialist paradise ... It's getting harder and harder to read it on a full stomach.
- crassus 13y agoI consider it performance art. It's the legions of +1 commenters that are depressing.
- natural219 13y agoIt seems increasingly clear to me that there is a concerted effort to paint some tech companies as more sexist than they are. Don't get me wrong, there is definitely a problem of gender imbalance and harassment in our industry that needs to be addressed. But I have heard this "Github is sexist" meme in half a dozen of different contexts, but every time I investigate an incident it's some semantic squabbling about the word "meritocracy" or some idiot reporter who searched for racial slurs on a huge public corpus of user-submitted content, forgetting that the exact same argument could be applied to Youtube, Facebook, or literally any website. It's equally frustrating because if Github (and others) actually do engage in despicable sexist behavior, I want to hear about it and adjust my views of them accordingly. However, when reporters, bloggers, and commentators flood the internet with harassment stories accompanied with such vitriolic language, it's harder for me to tell the actual stories apart from the bombastic linkbait.
- brown9-2 13y agoHow do you know how sexist a workplace is without working in it?
- natural219 13y agoI would love to read a first-hand account. For example, if Ms. Horvath blogged about her experiences and that was submitted to HN instead, it would have been much more interesting. This piece is simply there to piss people off and get clicks.
- dbloom 13y agoIf you were so hurt by constant harassment at your workplace that you decided to quit, how would you feel about publicly describing those experiences? What if you want to remain friends with some of your former co-workers? What if those former co-worker friends work on the same team as former co-worker harassers? Are you willing to put those friendships in jeopardy? Are you willing to make it harder for those friends to do their jobs? If they are forced to choose sides, how would you feel about affecting their working relationship with their coworkers? Sure, it's not your fault. But it's not their fault either! What if you misremember who was involved in a particular incident? (Do you take detailed notes every time you're harassed? Even if it's a lot of little things that all added up in the end?) What if you name the wrong person? What if the hacker community focuses on that and uses it to discredit you and destroy your reputation you spent years working to build? Would you enjoy remembering and reliving all of the experiences that hurt you over the past few years so that you can write a blog post about it? Would that actually make you feel better? Would you enjoy feeling like you had to write that blog post just so that people would believe you?
- colechristensen 13y agoWhether or not her allegations turn out to have merit, blasting them out on Twitter without having gone through the appropriate channels inside and outside the company first shows a distinct lack of professionalism. There are plenty of professional responses when there is conflict with your coworkers and attempting to publicly shame them is very far from any of them.
- sp332 13y agoShe founded GitHub's Passion Projects series, so if GitHub does something that undermines that message, her professional reputation is on the line. She writes on twitter "HR has a well documented explanation and has for years."
- zobzu 13y agonot sure how "all destroyed in a day" and "hr documented for years" work together. oh yeah - it doesnt. if anything thats another thing that totally discredit her... i dont doubt she complained to ht over the years trying to fuck ppl up after reading the excerpt however.
- steveklabnik 13y agoPassion Projects is becoming an independent organization now, it was announced at the one this past week.
- kevingadd 13y agoOh, I see, it's the victim's fault because she didn't engage with systems created by the harassers to your satisfaction. Such elegant logic: no matter what, somehow it's the woman's fault.
- frakkingcylons 13y agoThis is a poorly-written article focusing on insignificant tidbits of illegitimate controversy attributed with GitHub which distracts from actually discovering the details of an unhealthy work environment that may exist at GitHub. The bit about racial and sexist slurs in some random users' code? Completely irrelevant. GitHub is a platform to host code. They are not and should not be responsible for what people commit to repositories. To suggest otherwise is to suggest that GitHub should take on the role of a censor, and at that point, code associated with any gray area (like Popcorn Time) becomes a target for the vocal minority. Let's wait for Horvath to finish her side of the story and go from there.
- chacham15 13y agoI dont know much of the circumstances, but I feel that this particular article hurts Julie Ann Horvath more than it helps. First, it presents a series of tweets, each more vicious than the previous. Then it presents a blatantly wrong example of Github accepting racial slurs and its ilk. However, it continues to talk about how GitHub has actually been improving the culture and that more women have been joining. Next, it presents a rather weak example of 'harassment' that I can even see as the manager trying to do the right thing in his own view but presenting it entirely in the wrong way. Finally, it ends with a tweet that Julie Ann Horvath wants secret to remove a post about her (is anyone else angry about the implicit censorship here?). Again, I do not know what is happening here, but the article has at the least made me mad that people are resorting to censorship to solve their disputes.
- djur 13y agoCensorship? Slander is illegal.
- renata 13y agoSlander turns out to not be covered under the DMCA, so the hosting site is under no obligation to remove a post after a notice and no trial or court order.
- djur 13y agoBut it might be in their best interests to take it down regardless. The fact that they're not legally compelled to do so makes it even less like censorship.
- renata 13y agoYou don't think it's censorship if at any time, for any reason, someone can induce them to take down any post by claiming libel? Well, I might agree with that, but it would also make every site useless.
- vacri 13y ago
- vladgur 13y ago...'The issue has spilled over into other Internet companies too, as Horvath quite correctly called out Secret, the anonymous-sharing app, for leaving up what is an appalling post about her, in which she is called “Queen.”..... I signed up for the Secret yesterday based on the HN comments of their UX interactions and I immediately noticed that in comments below Secret posts, people are assigned random icons and then refer to each other by what the icon looks like. She refered to the author of that Secret comment as "greenshirt" in her tweets. Is it possible that the "Queen" was a reference to her icon(which we dont see from the screenshot), rather than an insult. It could be just be attributed to a chess figure icon.
- vladgur 13y agoOMFG, seriously Recode? you registration that requires a password sends it over plain text to an http post? I was about to register to comment, but now i will have to use a throwaway email, password
- sergiotapia 13y agoIs it wrong to call a woman a "Queen"? What.the.fuck. I call my wife 'mi reina' and my daughter 'princesita'. Are you telling me these retards are saying that's a no-no?
- jkelsey 13y agoYes. You don't use gendered pronouns to refer to your coworkers and professional associates because you're reducing that person to their gender when it rarely matters. Also, you don't call people 'retards' because that's insulting to people with disabilities. What you call your wife and daughter is between you and your family.
- sergiotapia 13y agoI had no idea using 'retard' in conversation was offensive to disabled people. TIL. I'll try not to use it again outside of close friends.
- leokun 13y agoEh, publicly shaming doesn't work without considerable and undeniable proof. It will just backfire into internet rage and dossing ala dongle gate. If there is real harassment best just make it hurt through state harassment arbitration. When they get tired of paying through the nose for all the stupid insensitive things naive and oblivious coworkers are bandying about, maybe they'll get serious. Start writing things down and then contact a local equal opportunity office and start the process. It will not be cheap for them. If people keep doing this they'll change their ways. Going public on Twitter or Hacker News though hasn't done much other than bring out nasty and unproductive fights between Social Justice Warriors and Men's Rights fanatics. They make everyone look bad and we all walk away feeling like maybe we've lost faith in humanity when in reality a serious problem just stems from mostly unintentional, but hurtful ignorance.
- mbrameld 13y agoThis is exactly what I don't understand. If I was being harassed to the point that I was considering quitting my job, I would simply gather all the evidence I could (she mentions emails, I would also carry a voice recorder) and hire an attorney. I wouldn't tweet about it, I wouldn't write a blog post about it or give a talk about it. None of those things are going to fix the problem. File the lawsuit and let the facts speak for themselves.
- melindajb 13y agoThat's what Ellen Pao did. She got shit too, including being fired. Let's see how it pans out for her.
- zaidf 13y agoCounterexample: Pao's husband sued his employer for discrimination and made a sweet million: Fletcher sued his employer, brokerage Kidder Peabody, for discrimination and won $1.3 million in 1991. Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/kleiner-perkins-ellen-pao-lawsuit-sex-scandal-silicon-valley-2012-6?op=1#ixzz2w5LxBZr1 http://www.businessinsider.com/kleiner-perkins-ellen-pao-law...
- iamleppert 13y agoTerrible! Can't believe such a progressive company like Github would stoop so low.
- choult 13y agoI am quite frankly disappointed in the behavior of my peers whenever a story like this comes out. It makes me ashamed of my industry - we are so much better than this! There is no place for discrimination in this world. Ever.
- Pinatubo 13y ago> There is no place for discrimination in this world. Ever. Of course there is. For instance, when hiring I discriminate against people that aren't qualified. Of course I know that's not the kind of discrimination you mean. It's funny how "discrimination" has become a synonym for "bigotry."
- crassus 13y ago"Differentiation between what is ‘good’ and ‘bad’ requires discrimination. This is a capability no younger than life itself, which it serves as an indispensable function. As soon as there is behavior, there is discrimination between alternatives. One way leads to survival, the other way leads to death. There is nourishment, or not; reproduction, or not; safety or predatory menace. Good and bad, or the discrimination between them (which is the same thing), are etched primordially into any world that life inhabits. Discrimination is needed to survive. The very existence of archaic hominids attests to billions of years of effective discrimination, between safety and danger, wholesome and putrid or poisonous food, good mates and less good (or worthless) ones. When these elevated apes differentiated between good and bad, appetizing and rotten, attractive and repulsive, they found such discriminations sufficiently similar in essence to be functionally substitutable. When judging that some food item is ‘not good for us’, a person is ‘rotten’, or the odor of a potential mate is ‘delicious’, we recall such substitutions, and the primordial sense of discrimination that they affirm. There can be no long-term deviation from the original principle: discrimination is intelligence aligned with survival. Two contrary developments now present themselves. Firstly, there is a sublimation or sophistication of discrimination, which might be called cultivation. Abstract concepts, modes of expression, artworks, delicate culinary flavors, refined behaviors, and exotic elaborations of sexual-selection stimuli, among innumerable other things, can all be subtly discriminated on the ancient scale, supporting an ever more intricate and extended hierarchy of judgments. The reflexive doubling of this potential upon itself, as captured by the ‘higher’ judgment that to discriminate well is good, produces a ‘natural aristocracy’. For the first time, there is a self-conscious ‘Right’. This, at least, is its logico-mythical ur-form. To divide the good from the bad is good. Order, hierarchy, and distinction emerge from an affirmation of discrimination. Because the Left cannot create, it comes second. It presupposes an existing hierarchy, or order of discriminations, which is subverted through a ‘slave revolt in morality’. The formula is simple enough: to discriminate is bad. Following from this leftist moral perversion, as its second-order consequence, those who do not discriminate (well), but are in fact discriminated against, must be the good. In the new moral order, therefore, to be bad at discrimination is good — or ‘universalist’ — whilst the old (and now ‘evil’) quality of good judgment, based on competent perception of patterns and differences, is the very quintessence of sin."
- sergiotapia 13y agoI just don't take these people seriously anymore. It seems like a uniquely north american woman phenomenon. Why is that I almost never hear about a German female software developer crying wolf? This person could have been legitimately harassed, but all of the bullshit flooding online has made me grow a thick skin and just not care anymore because I think it's fake.
- badman_ting 13y ago> Why is that I almost never hear about a German female software developer crying wolf? Indeed, why.
- rmc 13y agoThere is a lot of sexism in Europe. e.g. the European Union tried to get more women into science with a campaign called "Science: It's a girl thing"[1]. The promotional video[2] is painfully archiac. It looks like something straight out of Mad Men. "Pete, women are only interested in make up, so make sure we have lots of that" [1] https://science-girl-thing.eu/en/splash https://science-girl-thing.eu/en/splash [2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g032MPrSjFA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g032MPrSjFA
- sergiotapia 13y agoThat video is just cringe-worthy. What were they thinking?!
- facepalm 13y agoPerhaps they were thinking of TV Shows like Germany's Next Top Model? While I also think the video is ridiculous, who knows, perhaps it actually works for the audience of that TV show (which is most teenage girls). Advertising is more interested in results than in political correctness. Then again, advertising paid for by tax money? I suspect somebody went golfing and sealed the deal...
- RyanZAG 13y agoIt's cringe-worthy for you, but it's actually popular amongst the target demographic and has probably done more for getting girls into tech than most other initiatives. You can deny it all you want, but many girls really do like that kind of thing - and denying their right to like that stuff is just as bad as denying their right to join the tech workforce. EDIT: I mean the initiative as a whole, not the video alone. The whole initiative has been done in a fairly cringe worthy way for me though, but for the target audience it mostly gets it right.
- andrelaszlo 13y agoThis looks pretty toxic to me, either way: > @getsecret told me they took down a post that's attempting to > assassinate my character. They didn't. It continues. > > "Removed my comments, but why are people using Secret as an > outlet? Internally, "Queen" has history of RAGING against any > professional riticism. Leadership has stood idly by while she > lied about contributions, threw hardworking oworkers under the > bus (again and again), and spread vicious rumors about women at > work and in the community. That's fucked. Maybe we shouldn't > discuss that in the open, but unethical behavior should be > exposed. If you have similar stories, please share with > greenshirt on Anonyfish. This will be private. Just a safe way > for us to talk. Thanks." https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444646082857820160/photo/1 https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444646082857820160/phot...
- theorique 13y agoEither the person in question behaved in a toxic manner, and was called out for it secretly, or else she did not behave in a toxic manner and the secretive calling-out is the toxic behavior. Who's telling the truth? I wasn't there for any of it - so I have no idea.
- zobzu 13y agoafter reading the article and links - i think i can safely say some people are batshit crazy - and that the only harrasment at github was this women harrasing others. even thus this article was supposed to be in her defense. batshit crazy.
- jkelsey 13y ago> and that the only harrasment at github was this women harrasing [SIC] others. How do you know this? Do you work at GitHub?
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- theorique 13y agoThe allegations thus far are extremely vague. We don't even have complete stories from both sides, let alone conclusions. Until we know what actually happened (if we ever do) it will be hard to judge.
- pencilcode 13y agoTaking into account the normal backlash that ensues against any woman who raises issues of sexism in the workplace, i think she was very brave. typical reaction is let's not judge company A but let's really judge the woman, instead of the more sane reaction of let's not judge either the woman or the company. as for going to court, i know plenty of people who bitch about the workplace publicly and never go to court. the only difference is harassment is actually a crime but proving it is typically hell so most woman don't bother (and it could hurt them real bad professionally) - they just deal with it the best they can. Anyway, let's not judge either github or julie - they both deserve fair treatment.
- strict9 13y agoWhen a person makes a claim of intimidation or harassment, that person should not be judged on traits that have nothing to do with the claim. Insulting a woman in the tech industry after making statements of suffering from harassment is a very tiring theme that occurs over and over again. Even on forums that pride themselves on being intelligent and tolerant. Let's change this and stop with the insults and victim blaming.
- intortus 13y agoNo, let's cherrypick the easiest, most irrelevant claims so we can refute them. We're too busy and important to face the troubling and difficult issues that arise when women step out of place. We need to stay above that sort of drama, because we're professionals. Besides, it's a proven fact that tech is a meritocracy.
- jpwright 13y agoYes, thank you! It seems like every time this sort of issue comes up, a large number of men both (a) take it as a personal attack, and (b) decide that the best way to handle this attack is to counter-attack someone's character with random accusations (like that they weren't a good enough engineer to talk about harassment in the workplace). Really, really shameful to see it unfold every time.
- spikels 13y agoYay! More pointless division that will improve nothing and probably make things worse. Good work people! Now that she's gone does this mean that GitHub can get that cool carpet back? http://readwrite.com/2014/01/24/github-meritocracy-rug#awesm=~oyBwPeBjuhShE4 http://readwrite.com/2014/01/24/github-meritocracy-rug#awesm...
- mason240 13y agoThat's unbelievable. I never would have guessed feminists would be actively fighting against meritocracy.
- steveklabnik 13y agoIt's actually "fighting against the idea that we actually live in a meritocracy, because we don't." You may also want to look into the history of 'meritocracy': http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/how-we-came-to-misunderstand-meritocracy http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/how-we-came-to-misunderstan...
- mason240 13y agoSo I guess we should get rid of the term "equality" as well, right? In all seriousness though, entirely scrapping a noble idea because it isn't yet 100% realized is beyond ridiculous and is an example of why many people can't take modern feminists seriously. You are supposed to work toward realizing goals, not destroying them.
- steveklabnik 13y ago> So I guess we should get rid of the term "equality" as well, right? No, we should get rid of anyone saying that we currently live under 'equality', because we don't. > entirely scrapping a noble idea because it isn't yet 100% realized It's not that it's 'not yet realized,' it's that it's not actually possible.
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- stefan_kendall3 13y agoI worry about the unintended side effects of posts like these. Who will read this and hesitate the next time they're about to hire a woman because they're the best candidate for the job? "If one person claims there's gender-based harassment in the company, it would really affect our valuation...Better go with the slightly less-good-fit male candidate." Of course I don't know what happened exactly, but fixing problems from within seems more effective than leaving a place and pointing fingers. Nobody likes to get pointed at.
- chrismonsanto 13y agoSometimes you can't fix problems from within. What exactly are women supposed to do in this case? Just shut up? How will these problems ever be fixed?
- stefan_kendall3 13y agoThrough education and one on one interaction. Accusing "leadership" of harassment puts them on the defensive and less likely to change their actions. No one has ever been convinced of an argument by someone holding a megaphone.
- chrismonsanto 13y agoLet's assume all of the friendly paths have been taken. What now? What are we going to do to educate these women, and what exactly are we educating them about? And at this point, should we not just give up on convincing the other party? How much abuse do women have to take before enough is enough?
- stefan_kendall3 13y agoThe alleged harassers need to be educated, not women. And education isn't always friendly. And "how much should you need to take..." is irrelevant. Life isn't fair, and sometimes you have to win arguments you think you shouldn't have to fight with otherwise reasonable people.
- ChristianMarks 13y agoPhilosophy departments are also having their troubles with sexism, sexual harassment and allegations therof, as one can find by perusing http://leiterreports.typepad.com http://leiterreports.typepad.com, http://philosophysmoker.blogspot.com/ http://philosophysmoker.blogspot.com/ and http://beingawomaninphilosophy.wordpress.com/ http://beingawomaninphilosophy.wordpress.com/ The serious problems in professional philosophy with sexism and harassment are exacerbated by an other-worldly proclivity among some philosophers to theorize the possibility of harassment out of existence.
- mantrax 13y agoInformation is vague, so it's best not to take side (yet, at least). This caught my eye, though: "In one day, all of the work I've done at that company to be a better place for women to work has come undone." "All work undone in a day" feels off. Either too impulsive, or speaking ill of her alleged work. I'd be suspicious of anyone claiming great progress in their activist agenda (or whatever agenda) for two years, and then suddenly announcing it was all undone by a single remark or in a single day.
- TTPrograms 13y ago>But, even in a January interview with ReadWrite about how progressive the company had become, she noted some lingering issues: “I recently got an email from a middle manager that began, ‘So Julie, how are the women at GitHub?’ I said, ‘You should ask them’.” This is pretty telling of her attitude, I think.
- geoka9 13y ago> Prominent GitHub Engineer When I read the title (having never heard of Julie Horvath before), I expected the article to explain her technical contributions. However, there seem to be none that would make her a "prominent github engineer". I think that singling out people as "prominent engineers" just because they are women is sexist and does a disservice to the equality cause. Equality cuts both ways: people shouldn't be harassed because they are a minority. But they shouldn't be put on a pedestal just because of it, either. Because it defeats the whole purpose of equality by making them "more equal" than others.
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- jkrems 13y agoShe was responsible for organizing the pretty awesome "Passion Talks" series at Github. So she was definitely more famous than the average developer working at Github. She did not invent Map/Reduce, but we are talking about Github here, not Google/Amazon/etc..
- OGC 13y agoOrganizing talks is now Engineering? Okay..
- rememberlenny 13y agoJulie is an active speaker at conferences as well.
- zenciadam 13y agoOk. But that doesn't make her a "prominent" engineer. She makes touchy-feely speeches. Usually, when this happens, someone got a bad performance review because they were effectively useless, and then they raise some canard. She didn't contribute in any real meaningful way, got a bad review and decided she would drag her former employer's name through the mud.
- gagaga 13y agoWill HN ever be capable of having a rational discussion of women in engineering and the issues they face? Most of these comments are face-palm worthy.
- thomasvendetta 13y agoI have a question. Her tweets were posted multiple times last night to HN. They were up voted and commented on, yet within 20-30 minutes each time, they were flagged as dead and no longer on the front page. On some, there were newly created accounts commenting in defense of Github and claiming her comments and reasons were fraudulent. What's up with that?
- untog 13y agoHacker News users flag posts relating to gender whenever they come up. It's long been my opinion that flagging is too powerful on HN. Legitimate stories about Titstare and that hackathon where women fetch drinks for you were disappeared very quickly. Though in this instance I'm not sure it's so bad, we have very little to make a meaningful discussion out of yet.
- jonchang 13y agoThere's a better-written story over here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7405510 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7405510 But it's magically vanished from being listed on the front page: http://hnrankings.info/7405510,7405325/ http://hnrankings.info/7405510,7405325/ The discussion about the tweet mentioned above is here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7403344 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7403344 (and it looks like it was flagged off the front page almost instantly)
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- bowlofpetunias 13y agoI'm really not surprised at this after all the publicity about GitHub's immature "no managers" frat boy culture. Really, what do you expect to happen when you put a bunch of young men with little life experience together and let the inmates run the asylum? Also not surprised at the many blatantly misogynist comments here on HN. If there was ever any doubt about how our industry treats women, all you have to do is let the industry speak for itself, like it does here on HN.
- melindajb 13y agoright? In a most unexpected way (to me) I do appreciate that HN allows all these disgusting comments to remain, vs. whitewashing them away. It gives credence to claims about what people really think in this industry.
- melindajb 13y agogo ahead kids, downvote me. I love it. I eat it for breakfast.
- mikejholly 13y agoBut, even in a January interview with ReadWrite about how progressive the company had become, she noted some lingering issues: “I recently got an email from a middle manager that began, ‘So Julie, how are the women at GitHub?’ I said, ‘You should ask them’.” Umm, maybe I'm misinformed, but from what I've read Horvath was a bit of a evangelist for women in tech at GitHub. So why is it problematic to assume she might have her finger on the pulse with regard to GitHub's female employees? Also, if you've "been harassed by 'leadership' at GitHub for two years" why not stand up for yourself and put the jerks in their place, or talk to a lawyer? Why take to Twitter like a child and post a spate of accusations?
- tesseractive 13y agoBeing an evangelist for women at a company is actually not the same thing as having the right to speak for all of them any more than a "developer evangelist" has a right to speak for all the developers.
- mikejholly 13y agoI didn't mention anything about speaking for them. And wouldn't a developer evangelist have an opinion on developer culture within the company?
- scintill76 13y agoExactly. One thing, in her defense, is that the email sounds a little flippant (at least the one-sentence quote we get secondhand!) I'll give the emailer the benefit of the doubt and assume it was meant as an insensitively playful but well-intentioned query. When she's positioned herself as an advocate for women in the company, why would she get so offended when someone asks how that's going? Maybe she's upset about getting the "special treatment" of being asked after specifically -- well then, she already does "special treatment" of her own by starting Passion Projects, "Talks From Incredible Women In Tech." "You should ask them." In a perfect world, sure, but is she seriously saying Mr. Middle Manager should walk around the cubes asking, "So, Jane, how do you feel as a woman at the company?" She probably meant that management should listen in general (to all employees.) Well then, is she playing "I know some specific things that are suboptimal, but I want you find them yourself"? What if they are already improving things they know of, and they just wanted her input on anything they're missing? So she spits back some quip to make them feel bad, nobody wins, and they won't ask again.
- lexcorvus 13y agoI see two basic solutions to these issues: 1. Purge every company of assholes 2. Allow complete freedom of association #1 is hard to implement because assholes are everywhere. #2 is the obvious solution, and in fact it is so obvious that Julie Ann Horvath's actions implicitly endorse it—don't work for companies filled with assholes. Alas, the obvious solution is illegal under US federal law. Asshole-filled companies are required by law to hire the kind of people assholes love to harass. In other words, the very laws designed to promote the interests of asshole-targets guarantee that they will come into contact with assholes. (Medical geeks might recognize this as iatrogenesis.) Of course, there's always: 3. Convert all assholes to non-assholes This can be considered a special case of #1, and would be the best of all possible worlds. Indeed, a great deal of energy goes into achieving it. But it essentially reduces to "eliminate the existence of assholes". It doesn't take a particularly subtle grasp of human nature to understand why this doesn't appear to be working. In sum, the obvious solution is illegal and the desirable solution doesn't work. Is it any wonder this conflict seems never-ending?
- lexcorvus 13y agoI can see two basic solutions to these issues: 1. Purge every company of assholes 2. Allow complete freedom of association #1 is hard to implement because assholes are everywhere. #2 is the obvious solution, and in fact it is so obvious that Julie Ann Horvath's actions implicitly endorse it—don't work for companies filled with assholes. Alas, the obvious solution is illegal under US federal law. Asshole-filled companies are required by law to hire the kind of people assholes love to harass. In other words, the very laws designed to promote the interests of asshole-targets guarantee that they will come into contact with assholes. (Medical geeks might recognize this as iatrogenesis.) Of course, there's always: 3. Convert all assholes to non-assholes This can be considered a special case of #1, and would be the best of all possible worlds. Indeed, a great deal of energy goes into achieving it. But it essentially reduces to "eliminate the existence of assholes". It doesn't take a particularly subtle grasp of human nature to understand why this doesn't appear to be working. In sum, the obvious solution is illegal and the desirable solution doesn't work. Is it any wonder this conflict seems never-ending?
- tesseractive 13y agoIt sounds a whole lot like you're saying: A. There are only two impossibly simplistic solutions to the problem. B. Neither of them are workable in practice, so clearly the problem is intractable. There are people out there who have spent more than 10 minutes considering the problem. Many of them have conducted research and published on the topic. You might consider reading some of them before concluding that it's hopeless.
- lexcorvus 13y agoA. There are only two impossibly simplistic solutions to the problem. Can you think of a solution that doesn't fall into either of the categories I suggested? B. Neither of them are workable in practice, so clearly the problem is intractable. Don't shoot the messenger. Many of them have conducted research and published on the topic. This is exactly what you would expect when there's an illegal but obviously workable solution. Nobody ever got a job for saying "let companies hire whomever they please", so researchers have an incentive to make the impossible solution seem possible—if only we would listen to (and fund the research of) people like them. The results simply involve increasingly complicated ways of purging (or converting) assholes.
- alexnking 13y agoThanks a lot github. This is why we can't have nice things.
- chimeracoder 13y agoI have no idea whether her claim is true or not, and what the culture is like at Github. But from even reading the title, I do know one thing - Julie is about to get a lot of negative attention directed at her personally, both publicly (e.g. on Twitter) and privately (e.g. email). I don't envy what she's about to go through[0]. Ignore for a moment the company (whether it's Github, Google, or Gawker). Isn't it sad that speaking out about (perceived) harassment carries a near 100% chance of inciting exponentially more harassment? [0] Perhaps I'll be proven wrong; I'd like to be. Unfortunately, reading the article and then the comments, that's looking less likely.
- facepalm 13y agoYou can hardly expect zero backlash if you piss on other people's parade.
- olivierlacan 13y agoIt's not a fucking parade. It's people's careers and livelihoods. Since when is speaking out about abuse (of any kind) trivially equated to relieving oneself?
- facepalm 13y agoWell what I mean is that these are serious accusations, not just something you say "just like that". So there is a backlash, because people try to defend their turf (a ka their parade). Society seems to be divided in people who automatically believe all such accusations, and people who ask questions (and probably also people who automatically disbelieve them, to be fair). To me it seems fair to ask questions if so much is at stake.
- rds2000 13y agoThe results are predictable. A marketer / evangelist on twitter that survives off validation exploits a loophole in USA's charitable, politically correct culture. She bites more than she can chew, she is copying what she sees in popular culture of an Erin Brokovich fighting her enemies. She simply is mentally unable to admit personal fault. Why? Social media encouragement and well-meaning enablers. The secret.ly screenshot says how she can't handle professional criticism - behaviorally reinforced by culture, twitter and social networking sites "+1" and "retweet" is more important that doing what her manager and the house wants her to do.
- xrctl 13y agoThis shows why it is best to ignore women's complaining from the start. Github has bent over backwards for Horvath, and it only fueled and enabled her delusions. This "gender based harassment" was most likely someone disagreeing with her that Github did not need to be feminism 24x7.
- gagaga 13y agoIs this a satirical post? I cannot imagine anyone writing this in 2014 and actually believing it.
- adamors 13y agoRead the whole thread, it's rampant with sexism and victim blaming. Typical for a HN discussion about anything related to gender issues, really.
- Allan_Smithee 13y agoTrigger Warning: HN
- mantrax 13y agoHow can you believe or not believe without any information at all (that applies to both sides here)? Sometimes our society recognizes a problem. It becomes a sensitive, emotional topic. Racism, sexism, all real problems. And when a society is in this sensitive state, some formerly (or even currently) oppressed people take advantage. The oppressors become the oppressed and the oppressed become the oppressors. It's a real thing, and it's quite natural, if undesired. You don't know what the situation is here. I don't. No one commenting from aside knows.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- danso 13y agoOK, as a minority myself -- maybe not in tech today, but growing up in a region that was 99% white and not anywhere near Silicon Valley -- this really irritates me: https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444662613020913665 https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444662613020913665 "The shitty thing about all of this is that by being open and honest about my experience I'm devaluing stock options of people I care about." So Horvath is alleging what most definitely sounds like civil-court level of damages, if not criminal, but she won't provide details or file a lawsuit as a whistelblower because she fears for her friends' financial profit? How the hell does that even make sense? What amount of IPO profit is worth the level of systematic oppression and discrimination that she is alleging here? And what kind of friends -- the ones privileged enough to earn a spot in Github's ranks and could easily get a job at a less purportedly evil company -- would be unsympathetic toward Horvath calling out her abusers, given the level of harassment and cruelty they have inflicted upon her, as she tells in her tweets? I hate to pull the "I'm a minority card" too, but I am someone who can completely believe that a situation like Horvath's could exist "under the radar" and yet cause lasting harm to equality in society...it's a common fallacy to think that racism/sexism only exists when physical violence and criminal malfeasance (of the media frenzy kind) occur. And so I'm equally frustrated that she, out of concern for her friends' bank accounts, will not do the right and just thing, given that she asserts to have irrefutable evidence and a solid case. And if there are enough good people at Github, as she also asserts, then legal and decisive action will only help Github to become a great company.
- caycep 13y agoThis is probably totally OT, but on the subject of women in CS and other STEM fields/professions: It seems like - while I'm sure the numbers like payscale and demographics probably still heavily favor male vs. female, looking around, you see pretty accomplished women in leadership positions - Jennifer Widom, Daphne Koller, heck you can even cite Ginny Rometti. Why don't we ever hear from/about them?
- gcb0 13y agoWhat exactly is the issue? the whole article does not say anything. At all. It just highlights her vague accusations. Sounds like a disgruntled employee. or did I miss any actual accusation there?
- cowpig 13y agoI don't really understand the motivation behind spamming twitter with vague messages. If you care about problematic treatment of women in tech, this seems completely counter-productive. Why not talk about what happened, how it could be avoided in the future? Inform people about the nature of the problem and it becomes possible to find solutions. I do believe that sexism is a real problem in this industry. But this woman's behaviour is childish and a completely inappropriate response no matter what it is that happened.
- rds2000 13y agoTo non-US people: In USA, we have a special sub-type of "office lady", which is the "marketer / enthusiast" twitter troll. The issue is, in other countries, office ladies are happy to just dress professionally and do their clerical work. In USA, we have self-esteem bubbles, an education system, a political culture that create a factory of women like this. Basically, office ladies who act like bulls, get enabled by nice-meaning people, then bite off more than they can chew. Also in USA, understand that our english isn't to be taken literally; it infers complicated politically-charged emotions. Americans react very harshly and nit-pick blunt truths, our public discourse is not one of reflection, clarification or debate, but projecting emotion at an idea we don't feel reaffirms our view of the world. These people are a tiny sliver of our society, but since we in USA are good people, we tend to give them benefit of the doubt. Because of the abuse by this type of women in the workplace, some Americans are associating women in distress with people like this. The boy who cried wolf. People like this can really hurt things for actual victims of discrimination who do their job.
- harshreality 13y agoI don't understand what this has to do with "office ladies" specifically. You could make similar claims about any cult personality. Anyone in a typical low-to-mid-level corporate job who has more social capital in the external world (twitter, etc.) than social capital inside the company.
- moron4hire 13y agoI believe her completely, because I would frankly be shocked in this day and age to see a company that didn't treat its employees like shit. Especially a Silicon "better-than-the-old-dog-chow" Valley company. How hard is it to treat people with respect, to treat them--ya know--like people?
- csomar 13y agoI've been harassed by 'leadership' at GitHub for two years. And I am the first developer to quit. And Julie Ann Horvath, an influential engineer at GitHub who has been vocal about the company’s increasingly positive culture for women Hmmm. I don't think this is going to serve her well. So if you have been harassed for two years, why did you find the culture in Github positive for women?
- jpwright 13y agoI think you are jumping to conclusions. The situation could have changed during the time she was there. It's also quite likely that she put a positive spin on things when describing GitHub publicly because it was part of her job, and she wasn't willing to go public with her accusations until it reached a certain level.
- pjscott 13y ago> look You look around the article, and see real news of someone quitting, and a few incensed tweets. Around these things lie a vast and billowing cloud of baseless speculation, which smells uncomfortably of sulfur and bile. > examine speculation The wispy and insubstantial cloud seems formless at first, but if you stare long enough, you can almost see the shapes of your foes. Or possibly bunny rabbits. None can say. > take speculation You try to grab the cloud of speculation, but it slips through your fingers. This is consistent with the behavior of most clouds.
- korzun 13y agoUntil she posts about what happened I don't understand the point of her Tweets. If you are accusing a company of something, do so with facts. This is not something you beat around the bush with.
- ohyes 13y agoBeyond the stuff that is harder to substantiate, putting stuff in your comments that isn't related to the code you've written is incredibly unprofessional. I wouldn't do that at any of the jobs I've been in. It's a shame there's a lack of professionalism in the industry.
- jd0 13y agoI'm glad to see a lot of people sticking up for her here in the comments but an equal number of these comments disgust me. Take a look at the gender disparity in the top 10 tech companies. Most of them are about 80% male. It's not that women don't want to work in tech, it's that society as a whole including the entire tech community is entrenched in a neo-good ol boys only mindset centered around a false meritocracy. Fuck the techies and fuck silicon valley. I grew up romanticizing the industry and in my adult life I've found it to be the ultimate disappointment.
- malandrew 13y ago“I recently got an email from a middle manager that began, ‘So Julie, how are the women at GitHub?’ I said, ‘You should ask them.’” What is so wrong with that email? I can see how it could be misconstrued by someone with a chip on their shoulder, but I could also see the original sender thinking that that is a totally innocent constructive question to posit to a woman who has been with the company for a long time. I would expect men to know more about what's going on with the men in a company and for the women to know more about what's going with women in a company. At the end of the day there are conversations at work with are always inappropriate and conversations at work which are inappropriate to have with members of the opposite gender, but are likely not to be considered inappropriate by members of the same sex. Or am I just missing something here.