9 ms·

I don't know

212 points by do 13y ago

saosebastiao 13y ago
I swear to god, every time I read a post by Jason, I wish he was my manager. I consider myself a highly productive person, but constantly hampered, directly and indirectly, by terrible managers. Jason always comes off as the kind of person that amplifies the abilities of his team. That is all...I'm gushing and its embarrassing.
- jmnicolas 13y ago
  Until office politics doesn't allow anybody to be promoted in a management position, we will suffer from incompetent managers. Ask me how I know.
  - chris_wot 13y ago
    You were recently promoted?
    - jmnicolas 13y ago
      Ah ah ah, not exactly.
collyw 13y ago
I wish politicians would have this attitude instead of avoiding the questions and coming out with meaningless statements.
- ColinWright 13y ago
  Politicians don't say anything useful because everything they say is fodder for the media to find something to excerpt, distort, and then replay endlessly out of context as an attack. The media has forced politicians not to say anything. Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre. If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him. -- Cardinal Richelieu (attributed)
- at-fates-hands 13y ago
  I hate to point this out, but when he was running for Governor, Jesse Ventura used to say it all the time. I remember in several of the debates when asked tough economic questions. "I don't have the answer to your question, but I know if I'm elected, I'll appoint the brightest economic people I can find to solve the problem." As opposed to other candidates who either talked along party lines and said they would tax the rich or give tax breaks to businesses and rich people. I still feel like it was one of the most important things he said that got him elected. He never acted like he had all the answers.
  - Uehreka 13y ago
    If he got elected and that worked for him, then awesome, but I could understand why many people would take issue with that way of answering questions. When it comes to politics, a lot of people aren't looking to elect someone for their decision-making ability. They're looking to elect someone who is making the same decisions that they've made. For instance, people don't want a candidate who will "investigate whether universal healthcare is a good idea". The people have already decided whether or not it is, and they want someone who will agree with them. In addition, not having a hardened position on something could mean that you intend to compromise with the opposition on that issue in order to appeal to more voters.
    - rahimnathwani 13y ago
      This. Or at least someone who appears to share the same values and decision-making criteria.
- suprgeek 13y ago
  A surprisingly large number of people would actually be turned off by a Politician who says I don't know. One thing I realized very quickly while doing some volunteer work - when the guy in charge (or running to be in charge) says I do not know - people react as if they have lost all confidence in him/her despite understanding that not everyone can know everything. so caveat emptor on preaching that.
- johngalt 13y ago
  Unfortunately the audience is different. Uncertainty becomes more of a negative the further away the audience is from the practitioner.
- waylandsmithers 13y ago
  There was a comment about Hilary in those Clinton papers that just got released along the lines of "Stop just answering the question asked. It's good manners but bad politics."
btilly 13y ago
My attitude is that preemptive honesty establishes credibility. Even more when it is backed up by everything else you do. By contrast up front evidence of defensive behavior is a red flag for me in all sorts of situations.
nsomaru 13y ago
In Indian culture, knowledge (viveka) is always accompanied with humility (vinaya). Thus, counter-intuitively, saying 'I don't know' is an indicator of the speaker's knowledge, as he is aware of areas of his ignorance. Contrast with an arrogant attitude of "I-know-everything-or-can-find-it-out" and the fuck-ups that inevitably follow. Aside: I would really like to know what the solution to keeping the listings updated was. Or, is that a trade secret? ;) edit: s/Aide/Aside
- joeframbach 13y ago
  It's interesting that you brought that up. As a westerner, I admit I don't have a great understanding of eastern cultures outside of the few movies I've seen. One stereotype, which I'd like some real clarification on, is the Chinese or Japanese societal culture of "saving face", or honor code. Could you give some insight on that cultural facet and how it pertains to knowledge/humility? I remember after the Fukushima incident, there was some talk of the officials' honor preventing them from admitting things were as bad as they were, making the entire situation worse. Is this pervasive as I'm led to believe? Would this come up in interviews and professional careers? Does it hinder our advances in technology?
  - jblok 13y ago
    Just because someone is from India, it doesn't mean they know everything about (incredibly diverse) cultures from every other country on the same continent. It's like asking an American of the culture of Brazil.
    - eterm 13y ago
      Yes, "Hey you're from India, what's it like it Japan" is almost hilariously insensitive. (Actually just tragic). It's along the same lines as: [Hears X is from country Y] "Oh do you know bob?"
      - joeframbach 13y ago
        Where is it stated that nsomaru is from India? The insensitive/tragic note here is that you've assumed that because someone has knowledge of a region, then they are from that region.
kliao 13y ago
I really like this idea and try to apply it as much as possible. In my experience, for any kind of teamwork, the faster we get to the "I don't knows", the faster we solve problems, while stating half-truths/guesses-as-facts spreads confusion and kills productivity. I've also noticed that the type of person who is afraid to admit knowledge gaps is usually also the one who looks at me funny or expresses disapproval whenever I use the phrase. It's as if they are confused as to why I would ever admit such weakness.
- belovedeagle 13y ago
  As one of those people who rarely says "I don't know", let me offer a different view: saying "I don't know" is negative and gets you nowhere. Instead of saying "I don't know", say what you do know. Then you're a step closer to understanding than anyone who said "I don't know"; and you're likely to be several steps ahead by the time they get over that hesitation. Now, guesses should never be presented as absolute facts, but having a guess puts you much closer to the truth than having nothing. If you really, truly have nothing, no relevant knowledge---which should rarely happen if you're well-educated and/or experienced, in which case you're a novice to the subject, where somewhat different rules apply---then say so; otherwise, go with what you know and learn the rest on the way. Will mistakes sometimes happen? Will you sometimes head down dead-ends? Absolutely, but that's part of the learning process and we shouldn't be afraid of mistakes, as long as we're in a process which is tolerant of them. (If you're pushing code to production, for example, then that's a time either to know or not to know, not to guess. But that's the end of the process, not when you're asking questions.) So if you said to me, "I don't know", I might look at you funny because it's probably not true: you probably do know, at least partially; it just seems like you're not willing to acknowledge that.
  - watwut 13y ago
    I hate that. And after I worked as analyst, I started to hate that even more. Just say "I do not know" and do not waste your and my time with monologues full of guesses and sort-of-related-but-not-relevant info. It does not help. It just wastes time. If you say, "I do not know" we can work on it. We can file it as an open question until you know. We can ask somebody else or search for information. And btw, the answer to "Will mistakes sometimes happen" question is: guesses cause them very often and they slow analysis a lot. You just do not see it, because I can not go to you and show you all your wrong guess mistakes. I have to smile and pretend that I trust you while triple checking everything you say which again, slow down analysis. Working with people able to say "I do not know" is way easier and faster.
Jemaclus 13y ago
It's not just "I don't know" that is important, but also the next part of the thought: "but I can find out." Just admitting you don't know is great, but it's not good enough. You have to also be able to take the next step and find out. If I ask two people if they know how to do something, and one of them says "I don't know" and the other says "I don't know, but I can find out," then... well, I don't really need to complete that thought. You can see the difference right there. But other than that, Jason is spot on. This is something I've been keeping an eye out for for years. When I interview people, I ask a question, and when they're clearly bullshitting me, I'll stop them and say, "It's okay if you don't know." The best candidates will often back down, like Jason did in his example, and say "Yeah, I don't really know, but I'll figure it out." Bullshitting me with an answer isn't a red flag. It means you're at least thinking about the problem. But admitting you don't know but are willing to figure it out is a far, far superior answer. Very few real-world problems demand an answer RIGHT NOW. Most can wait until some research is done.
- joshdotsmith 13y ago
  I happen to be in Army Officer Candidate School at the moment, and this is how the majority of the selection and training process works. A lot of pressure for people to answer things right now, but most of us don't actually know the answer. Without fail, the most motivated and successful candidates are the ones who say "Sir, Officer Candidate ______, I don't know but I will have an answer to you by [hack time]."
  - chris_mahan 13y ago
    How can one know how long it will take to get an answer? That's just a lie of bravado, a pressure-driven estimate. It's horrible in a business environment. What happens is the person will give the first answer that makes sense, which, while the answer may be correct, discourages deep analysis of the problem. I never give estimates, to the great fury of my boss, but I told him I don't want to lie. Lying is unethical, and accepting a lie, or not calling out a liar, is encouraging unethical behavior. If someone tells me: "I'll have an answer, or: be done with the work, by a certain date/time, I shake my head, then reply: "Don't make promises. Just let me know when it's done."
johngalt 13y ago
Someone who has all the answers, probably has an important answer wrong. Also, don't look at people's plans, look at their criteria.
zaidf 13y ago
If you found the post interesting, you may also like reading how Kiran seems to have attacked the question he posed to Jason: http://divvela.com/post/77189320557/an-army-to-help-you http://divvela.com/post/77189320557/an-army-to-help-you
tadmilbourn 13y ago
I like to think of this as being "confident in your ignorance." Whether you're a manager or early in your career, the way in which you admit what you don't know and ask clarifying questions can have a profound impact.
cmbaus 13y ago
While the point of the article isn't the domain problem, I'll add that the hardest management job I've had was trying to retroactively fix a data aggregation process that had been built manually over many years. The work was extraordinarily tedious, error prone, yet business critical. We had to keep shimming in new parts of the system, while keeping the old system afloat. While the system was always on the verge of imploding, from the outside, it basically appeared to work, which kept the project chronically understaffed. I have a lot respect for anyone who aggregates time critical production data from different sources. The nature of the work makes it extremely stressful, yet surprisingly easy for outsiders to underestimate.
thomseddon 13y ago
<title>the_title();</title>
- bernardjhuang 13y ago
  fixed.
  - thomseddon 13y ago
    :)
chrisweekly 13y ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b708iZ5A_I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b708iZ5A_I
alexandros 13y ago
The problem is that the engineer's "I don't know" gets beaten out of you when you speak to users and investors. You get made to feel like an amateur for admitting uncertainty. Which is absurd in the startup world of all places. So it's one of those doublethink situations, where you need to keep your internal accounting separate from the marketing talk. And then you need to know who to tell what on top of that. And then actually deal with the actual uncertainty on top of that. As if startups weren't hard enough in general, we're making it even worse for ourselves.
- dsri 13y ago
  A lot of people have the situational acumen to know when seeming to admit flat ignorance is a bad idea. If you're not sure about a particular fact, make an educated guess if you can or relate what you can from memory, and say, "I'll have to check on that and get back to you," then actually check on it and get back to your questioner or the audience later.
- dredmorbius 13y ago
  Those are probably users and/or investors you're better off not having. Conversely, answering "we're not sure, but here are some parameters of the situation / dimensions" suggests you're at least cognizant of the area. There's also the case of implausible ignorance: the "I don't recall" defense popular in politics and business PR-speak. This tends to decrease credibility.
- vacri 13y ago
  When I worked as a hospital tech, I was the 'user' of a few sales reps. My favourite sales rep was the guy who would say "I don't know" or "I can't tell you", and jot down the question in his notebook to find out and return with. He didn't always return (can't have everything, I guess), but "I don't know but will find out for you" was far superior to me as a user than the usual sales misdirection or bullshit. It really depends on who your users are, I guess. The general public aren't particularly grateful as a whole, but niche users tend to be more understanding.
scrabble 13y ago
If I don't know something I've made it a point to tell them that. Generally, I follow it up by letting whomever know that I can attempt to discover an answer to the question. If the question is about how something works, I'll occasionally explain how I think it might work based on how I'd implement it, but again advise that it's just a guess and I really do not know.
larrys 13y ago
"While there are lots of tactics, there is no one true silver bullet. " I'm old enough to have worked with Coldwell Banker when they rolled out their commercial real estate operations on the East Coast (they had been only a west coast company at first). What they did was assign a college student (typically on summer break or part time) to go out to each area and literally catalog all the commercial office space for part of the time and then the rest they would spend in the office calling up the building owner (or manager) and verifying the data collected. This was many years ago but it worked quite well. A database was compiled and updated. Bottom line is no matter how you cut this is a manual process. You know why the yellow pages was such a success? Relevant data that while it came out 1 time per year typically was highly accurate for that year. They made enough money (by selling advertising to a captive audience) that they were able to employ an entire quality checking and sales organization to verify and collect the data which ended up in a product that was widely used up until the internet came along. But once again they had the profit margin and captive audience to make the whole process work and that was a key part of that success.
adamzerner 13y ago
> Kiran explained that he likes it when people say I don’t know because it lends credibility to everything else that they’ve said. I'd take that a step further, and say that people who assign proper levels of certainty to their beliefs tend to be credible. Most people seem to only be able to think in absolutes.
- waylandsmithers 13y ago
  Hey! I do this! It tends to drive people insane!
  - adamzerner 13y ago
    Well you did a good job by saying "tends to" :)
georgemcbay 13y ago
Good point, and I agree, I also enjoy working with people who can admit when they just don't know something. It shouldn't be so hard to do, there is a nearly infinite amount of stuff each of us doesn't know -- especially when it comes to forward looking challenges we just haven't started thinking concretely about yet. My favorite response when asked about such things is "I'm not sure; we'll burn that bridge when we get to it". This topic is even more relevant for software over other types of knowledge, IMO, keeping in mind the Knuth quote "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it". Even when I'm pretty sure that task XYZ can be completed relatively easily using language A, framework B and API C, I still won't answer in complete absolutes unless I've worked on the compiler for A, written a fair amount of B, and previously exhausted all the functionality of C.
ilaksh 13y ago
Its amazing how small people are that they aren't able to admit they don't know something. Its quite common though.
codeulike 13y ago
I don't know what I think about this.
Bahamut 13y ago
This reminds me of what a good PHP dev told me once - he interviewed a bunch of candidates for a company before as a favor, asking a bunch of specific tough domain questions. Almost all of the candidates tried to spew a bunch of nonsense & wiggle their way through them, but only one candidate had the confidence to tell him each time that "I don't know, I would google it". That was the candidate that got hired, and when that person asked down the line why he was picked, the person who interviewed him told him that he was the only candidate to not bullshit him and tell him the answer that reflected how software engineers think. There is value in people who can tell upfront what their thoughts are, since they are identifying where there are potential problems.
- vacri 13y ago
  Herein lies the problem with DDG - it probably wouldn't sound as good to say "I don't know the answer to that question; I would Duck it."
glibgil 13y ago
When I read blogs like this I think "Dear Penthouse..." The original humble-brag medium.
megablast 13y ago
Some people like to hear "I don't know". Lots of people do not like to hear "I don't know".
- marcosdumay 13y ago
  Looks like a great way for filtering the ones you want to work with.
- rasz_pl 13y ago
  Some people are smart, Lots of people watch reality TV.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
untangle 13y ago
"I don't know" is very good; "I'll find out" is usually better. So I was taught as a plebe at the Naval Academy...
Paul_S 13y ago
I'm slightly exasperated with this mythical cultural fit being used as the end all quality you seek in your potential employee. If someone can please spare some time to write a no-nonsense definition so that even an alien could understand I'll be grateful. All I ever get are hand-wavy explanations.
- DanBC 13y ago
  It's an easy way to get sued for discrimination.

212 points by do 13y ago

I swear to god, every time I read a post by Jason, I wish he was my manager. I consider myself a highly productive person, but constantly hampered, directly and indirectly, by terrible managers. Jason always comes off as the kind of person that amplifies the abilities of his team. That is all...I'm gushing and its embarrassing.

jmnicolas 13y ago
Until office politics doesn't allow anybody to be promoted in a management position, we will suffer from incompetent managers. Ask me how I know.
- chris_wot 13y ago
  You were recently promoted?
  - jmnicolas 13y ago
    Ah ah ah, not exactly.

collyw 13y ago

I wish politicians would have this attitude instead of avoiding the questions and coming out with meaningless statements.

ColinWright 13y ago
Politicians don't say anything useful because everything they say is fodder for the media to find something to excerpt, distort, and then replay endlessly out of context as an attack. The media has forced politicians not to say anything. Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre. If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him. -- Cardinal Richelieu (attributed)
at-fates-hands 13y ago
I hate to point this out, but when he was running for Governor, Jesse Ventura used to say it all the time. I remember in several of the debates when asked tough economic questions. "I don't have the answer to your question, but I know if I'm elected, I'll appoint the brightest economic people I can find to solve the problem." As opposed to other candidates who either talked along party lines and said they would tax the rich or give tax breaks to businesses and rich people. I still feel like it was one of the most important things he said that got him elected. He never acted like he had all the answers.
- Uehreka 13y ago
  If he got elected and that worked for him, then awesome, but I could understand why many people would take issue with that way of answering questions. When it comes to politics, a lot of people aren't looking to elect someone for their decision-making ability. They're looking to elect someone who is making the same decisions that they've made. For instance, people don't want a candidate who will "investigate whether universal healthcare is a good idea". The people have already decided whether or not it is, and they want someone who will agree with them. In addition, not having a hardened position on something could mean that you intend to compromise with the opposition on that issue in order to appeal to more voters.
  - rahimnathwani 13y ago
    This. Or at least someone who appears to share the same values and decision-making criteria.
suprgeek 13y ago
A surprisingly large number of people would actually be turned off by a Politician who says I don't know. One thing I realized very quickly while doing some volunteer work - when the guy in charge (or running to be in charge) says I do not know - people react as if they have lost all confidence in him/her despite understanding that not everyone can know everything. so caveat emptor on preaching that.
johngalt 13y ago
Unfortunately the audience is different. Uncertainty becomes more of a negative the further away the audience is from the practitioner.
waylandsmithers 13y ago
There was a comment about Hilary in those Clinton papers that just got released along the lines of "Stop just answering the question asked. It's good manners but bad politics."

btilly 13y ago

My attitude is that preemptive honesty establishes credibility. Even more when it is backed up by everything else you do. By contrast up front evidence of defensive behavior is a red flag for me in all sorts of situations.

nsomaru 13y ago

In Indian culture, knowledge (viveka) is always accompanied with humility (vinaya). Thus, counter-intuitively, saying 'I don't know' is an indicator of the speaker's knowledge, as he is aware of areas of his ignorance. Contrast with an arrogant attitude of "I-know-everything-or-can-find-it-out" and the fuck-ups that inevitably follow. Aside: I would really like to know what the solution to keeping the listings updated was. Or, is that a trade secret? ;) edit: s/Aide/Aside

joeframbach 13y ago
It's interesting that you brought that up. As a westerner, I admit I don't have a great understanding of eastern cultures outside of the few movies I've seen. One stereotype, which I'd like some real clarification on, is the Chinese or Japanese societal culture of "saving face", or honor code. Could you give some insight on that cultural facet and how it pertains to knowledge/humility? I remember after the Fukushima incident, there was some talk of the officials' honor preventing them from admitting things were as bad as they were, making the entire situation worse. Is this pervasive as I'm led to believe? Would this come up in interviews and professional careers? Does it hinder our advances in technology?
- jblok 13y ago
  Just because someone is from India, it doesn't mean they know everything about (incredibly diverse) cultures from every other country on the same continent. It's like asking an American of the culture of Brazil.
  - eterm 13y ago
    Yes, "Hey you're from India, what's it like it Japan" is almost hilariously insensitive. (Actually just tragic). It's along the same lines as: [Hears X is from country Y] "Oh do you know bob?"
    - joeframbach 13y ago
      Where is it stated that nsomaru is from India? The insensitive/tragic note here is that you've assumed that because someone has knowledge of a region, then they are from that region.

kliao 13y ago

I really like this idea and try to apply it as much as possible. In my experience, for any kind of teamwork, the faster we get to the "I don't knows", the faster we solve problems, while stating half-truths/guesses-as-facts spreads confusion and kills productivity. I've also noticed that the type of person who is afraid to admit knowledge gaps is usually also the one who looks at me funny or expresses disapproval whenever I use the phrase. It's as if they are confused as to why I would ever admit such weakness.

belovedeagle 13y ago
As one of those people who rarely says "I don't know", let me offer a different view: saying "I don't know" is negative and gets you nowhere. Instead of saying "I don't know", say what you do know. Then you're a step closer to understanding than anyone who said "I don't know"; and you're likely to be several steps ahead by the time they get over that hesitation. Now, guesses should never be presented as absolute facts, but having a guess puts you much closer to the truth than having nothing. If you really, truly have nothing, no relevant knowledge---which should rarely happen if you're well-educated and/or experienced, in which case you're a novice to the subject, where somewhat different rules apply---then say so; otherwise, go with what you know and learn the rest on the way. Will mistakes sometimes happen? Will you sometimes head down dead-ends? Absolutely, but that's part of the learning process and we shouldn't be afraid of mistakes, as long as we're in a process which is tolerant of them. (If you're pushing code to production, for example, then that's a time either to know or not to know, not to guess. But that's the end of the process, not when you're asking questions.) So if you said to me, "I don't know", I might look at you funny because it's probably not true: you probably do know, at least partially; it just seems like you're not willing to acknowledge that.
- watwut 13y ago
  I hate that. And after I worked as analyst, I started to hate that even more. Just say "I do not know" and do not waste your and my time with monologues full of guesses and sort-of-related-but-not-relevant info. It does not help. It just wastes time. If you say, "I do not know" we can work on it. We can file it as an open question until you know. We can ask somebody else or search for information. And btw, the answer to "Will mistakes sometimes happen" question is: guesses cause them very often and they slow analysis a lot. You just do not see it, because I can not go to you and show you all your wrong guess mistakes. I have to smile and pretend that I trust you while triple checking everything you say which again, slow down analysis. Working with people able to say "I do not know" is way easier and faster.

Jemaclus 13y ago

It's not just "I don't know" that is important, but also the next part of the thought: "but I can find out." Just admitting you don't know is great, but it's not good enough. You have to also be able to take the next step and find out. If I ask two people if they know how to do something, and one of them says "I don't know" and the other says "I don't know, but I can find out," then... well, I don't really need to complete that thought. You can see the difference right there. But other than that, Jason is spot on. This is something I've been keeping an eye out for for years. When I interview people, I ask a question, and when they're clearly bullshitting me, I'll stop them and say, "It's okay if you don't know." The best candidates will often back down, like Jason did in his example, and say "Yeah, I don't really know, but I'll figure it out." Bullshitting me with an answer isn't a red flag. It means you're at least thinking about the problem. But admitting you don't know but are willing to figure it out is a far, far superior answer. Very few real-world problems demand an answer RIGHT NOW. Most can wait until some research is done.

joshdotsmith 13y ago
I happen to be in Army Officer Candidate School at the moment, and this is how the majority of the selection and training process works. A lot of pressure for people to answer things right now, but most of us don't actually know the answer. Without fail, the most motivated and successful candidates are the ones who say "Sir, Officer Candidate ______, I don't know but I will have an answer to you by [hack time]."
- chris_mahan 13y ago
  How can one know how long it will take to get an answer? That's just a lie of bravado, a pressure-driven estimate. It's horrible in a business environment. What happens is the person will give the first answer that makes sense, which, while the answer may be correct, discourages deep analysis of the problem. I never give estimates, to the great fury of my boss, but I told him I don't want to lie. Lying is unethical, and accepting a lie, or not calling out a liar, is encouraging unethical behavior. If someone tells me: "I'll have an answer, or: be done with the work, by a certain date/time, I shake my head, then reply: "Don't make promises. Just let me know when it's done."

johngalt 13y ago

Someone who has all the answers, probably has an important answer wrong. Also, don't look at people's plans, look at their criteria.

zaidf 13y ago

If you found the post interesting, you may also like reading how Kiran seems to have attacked the question he posed to Jason: http://divvela.com/post/77189320557/an-army-to-help-you http://divvela.com/post/77189320557/an-army-to-help-you

tadmilbourn 13y ago

I like to think of this as being "confident in your ignorance." Whether you're a manager or early in your career, the way in which you admit what you don't know and ask clarifying questions can have a profound impact.

cmbaus 13y ago

While the point of the article isn't the domain problem, I'll add that the hardest management job I've had was trying to retroactively fix a data aggregation process that had been built manually over many years. The work was extraordinarily tedious, error prone, yet business critical. We had to keep shimming in new parts of the system, while keeping the old system afloat. While the system was always on the verge of imploding, from the outside, it basically appeared to work, which kept the project chronically understaffed. I have a lot respect for anyone who aggregates time critical production data from different sources. The nature of the work makes it extremely stressful, yet surprisingly easy for outsiders to underestimate.

thomseddon 13y ago

<title>the_title();</title>

bernardjhuang 13y ago
fixed.
- thomseddon 13y ago
  :)

chrisweekly 13y ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b708iZ5A_I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b708iZ5A_I

alexandros 13y ago

The problem is that the engineer's "I don't know" gets beaten out of you when you speak to users and investors. You get made to feel like an amateur for admitting uncertainty. Which is absurd in the startup world of all places. So it's one of those doublethink situations, where you need to keep your internal accounting separate from the marketing talk. And then you need to know who to tell what on top of that. And then actually deal with the actual uncertainty on top of that. As if startups weren't hard enough in general, we're making it even worse for ourselves.

dsri 13y ago
A lot of people have the situational acumen to know when seeming to admit flat ignorance is a bad idea. If you're not sure about a particular fact, make an educated guess if you can or relate what you can from memory, and say, "I'll have to check on that and get back to you," then actually check on it and get back to your questioner or the audience later.
dredmorbius 13y ago
Those are probably users and/or investors you're better off not having. Conversely, answering "we're not sure, but here are some parameters of the situation / dimensions" suggests you're at least cognizant of the area. There's also the case of implausible ignorance: the "I don't recall" defense popular in politics and business PR-speak. This tends to decrease credibility.
vacri 13y ago
When I worked as a hospital tech, I was the 'user' of a few sales reps. My favourite sales rep was the guy who would say "I don't know" or "I can't tell you", and jot down the question in his notebook to find out and return with. He didn't always return (can't have everything, I guess), but "I don't know but will find out for you" was far superior to me as a user than the usual sales misdirection or bullshit. It really depends on who your users are, I guess. The general public aren't particularly grateful as a whole, but niche users tend to be more understanding.

scrabble 13y ago

If I don't know something I've made it a point to tell them that. Generally, I follow it up by letting whomever know that I can attempt to discover an answer to the question. If the question is about how something works, I'll occasionally explain how I think it might work based on how I'd implement it, but again advise that it's just a guess and I really do not know.

larrys 13y ago

"While there are lots of tactics, there is no one true silver bullet. " I'm old enough to have worked with Coldwell Banker when they rolled out their commercial real estate operations on the East Coast (they had been only a west coast company at first). What they did was assign a college student (typically on summer break or part time) to go out to each area and literally catalog all the commercial office space for part of the time and then the rest they would spend in the office calling up the building owner (or manager) and verifying the data collected. This was many years ago but it worked quite well. A database was compiled and updated. Bottom line is no matter how you cut this is a manual process. You know why the yellow pages was such a success? Relevant data that while it came out 1 time per year typically was highly accurate for that year. They made enough money (by selling advertising to a captive audience) that they were able to employ an entire quality checking and sales organization to verify and collect the data which ended up in a product that was widely used up until the internet came along. But once again they had the profit margin and captive audience to make the whole process work and that was a key part of that success.

adamzerner 13y ago

> Kiran explained that he likes it when people say I don’t know because it lends credibility to everything else that they’ve said. I'd take that a step further, and say that people who assign proper levels of certainty to their beliefs tend to be credible. Most people seem to only be able to think in absolutes.

waylandsmithers 13y ago
Hey! I do this! It tends to drive people insane!
- adamzerner 13y ago
  Well you did a good job by saying "tends to" :)

georgemcbay 13y ago

Good point, and I agree, I also enjoy working with people who can admit when they just don't know something. It shouldn't be so hard to do, there is a nearly infinite amount of stuff each of us doesn't know -- especially when it comes to forward looking challenges we just haven't started thinking concretely about yet. My favorite response when asked about such things is "I'm not sure; we'll burn that bridge when we get to it". This topic is even more relevant for software over other types of knowledge, IMO, keeping in mind the Knuth quote "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it". Even when I'm pretty sure that task XYZ can be completed relatively easily using language A, framework B and API C, I still won't answer in complete absolutes unless I've worked on the compiler for A, written a fair amount of B, and previously exhausted all the functionality of C.

ilaksh 13y ago

Its amazing how small people are that they aren't able to admit they don't know something. Its quite common though.

codeulike 13y ago

I don't know what I think about this.

Bahamut 13y ago

This reminds me of what a good PHP dev told me once - he interviewed a bunch of candidates for a company before as a favor, asking a bunch of specific tough domain questions. Almost all of the candidates tried to spew a bunch of nonsense & wiggle their way through them, but only one candidate had the confidence to tell him each time that "I don't know, I would google it". That was the candidate that got hired, and when that person asked down the line why he was picked, the person who interviewed him told him that he was the only candidate to not bullshit him and tell him the answer that reflected how software engineers think. There is value in people who can tell upfront what their thoughts are, since they are identifying where there are potential problems.

vacri 13y ago
Herein lies the problem with DDG - it probably wouldn't sound as good to say "I don't know the answer to that question; I would Duck it."

glibgil 13y ago

When I read blogs like this I think "Dear Penthouse..." The original humble-brag medium.

megablast 13y ago

Some people like to hear "I don't know". Lots of people do not like to hear "I don't know".

marcosdumay 13y ago
Looks like a great way for filtering the ones you want to work with.
rasz_pl 13y ago
Some people are smart, Lots of people watch reality TV.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

untangle 13y ago

"I don't know" is very good; "I'll find out" is usually better. So I was taught as a plebe at the Naval Academy...

Paul_S 13y ago

I'm slightly exasperated with this mythical cultural fit being used as the end all quality you seek in your potential employee. If someone can please spare some time to write a no-nonsense definition so that even an alien could understand I'll be grateful. All I ever get are hand-wavy explanations.

DanBC 13y ago
It's an easy way to get sued for discrimination.