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How to intentionally get denied entry into the United States?

175 points by nsaparanoid 13y ago

smcl 13y ago
This doesn't sound like a great idea. A friend of mine with an Indian passport and a valid UK work visa was visiting Northern Ireland and decided to try to sneak a quick bus trip into Republic of Ireland. Their bus was randomly stopped and everyone's passports were checked (these are pretty infrequent, I believe), the police quickly noticed they didn't have a valid visa for Ireland, took their details and then took them back to the North. Later that year he had a bit of trouble visiting mainland EU, the immigration officials cited his previous attempt to illegally enter Ireland - evidently it had been logged in some EU immigration database and can follow you around for a while. And this is just Ireland, I imagine the repercussions of getting denied from the US are a little more severe.
- drrotmos 13y ago
  Being denied entry isn't illegal, and isn't necessarily going to adversely affect future entry attempts. Overstaying your visa, or illegally entering a country on the other hand is a crime. If you have committed crimes in a country, you will have a harder time getting in next time.
  - bigd 13y ago
    careful: there's a difference to point out here - Visas are for entering/exiting the country and are the stamps on the passport. Then you can stay as long as you have your residence permit. Example: #when you enter the country you get DS2019: 1yr #residence permit Visa: 1yr # from when you enter the country until you leave the country: if your contract get renewed (DS2019++) else illegal the visa in your passport is worth nothing when inside the US. the fact that the two are confused might be very misleading.
  - usaphp 13y ago
    Overstaying your visa is not a crime. The Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) contains only civil penalties for an immigrant who overstays her visa. This means that immigrants with an expired visa will not be charged criminally or serve time in jail. Entering country illegally however IS a crime.
- rplnt 13y ago
  Ireland is a member state of EU. It's understandable how that can affect EU's view on you. I don't know what US could affect. Perhaps some country that US invaded and is in control off?
  - khuey 13y ago
    You don't think the EU and the US share information here?
- jotm 13y ago
  I was confused at first, then I remembered UK is not a Schengen member - if you get a UK visa, it's for the UK only; if you get a visa for any other EU country, you can go wherever you want in the EU, except the UK. Weird situation :-)
  - jeremysmyth 13y ago
    Ireland has opted out too. UK and Ireland are part of a "Common Travel Area" (a region that doesn't require passports to travel within, and which includes other islands in the British Isles), but aren't in Schengen.
  - _delirium 13y ago
    There's exceptions in the other direction as well: Norway, Switzerland, and Iceland aren't EU members, but Schengen visas are valid there.
- k-mcgrady 13y ago
  I presume this was many years ago. There aren't any border checks I know of between the North and South or Ireland these days. I take the bus and train to Dublin all the time and drive there quite often and have not seen a checkpoint since the 90's.
  - Fomite 13y ago
    The only bus I ever took from Dublin to Belfast and back was boarded by immigration and our papers checked. This was 2006.
    - k-mcgrady 13y ago
      That's very strange. According to wikipedia: "There are no longer any operational customs posts along either side of the border."[1] The last check I remember was in the 90's and I don't think it was a customs check, it was a military checkpoint. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland–United_Kingdom_border#Customs_and_identity_checks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland–United_King...
      - Fomite 13y ago
        It may have been them looking for someone specific - it was the middle of the night, and the Garda aren't exactly the most talkative of government agencies.
yason 13y ago
The reason why this was asked is baffling to me. If you don't want to go, then do not go. I assume the AP was an adult. Adults don't need to resort to tricks like trying to get rejected: adults can just reject the invite themselves.
- maxerickson 13y ago
  It's baffling you think this is true for everyone.
- Fuxy 13y ago
  Some people let themselves be force into things. I find it quite sad that they lack the strength to just say no. Edit: Peer pressure is a bitch especially when it's from your own family but don't let yourself be manipulated by it. Edit2: Some people have pointed out that it's not easy and in certain cultures be enough to kill a person. Now it's amazing that this in this day and age that is acceptable but i guess you can get away with anything if you say the magic word: "It's my religion/culture". However ask yourself this: I have 1 life am i willing to spend it all in a cage with some people i barely know making the rules? If the answer is yes the the give up already you don't have a choice if the answer is no do whatever it takes.
  - hav 13y ago
    It's hard to have the strength to say no in certain situations. Not everyone is in the same position as you to say no.
  - levosmetalo 13y ago
    It's not only about personal strength, no one is strong enough to change deep cultural heritage and go alone against 1000 year long culture in which woman has no say. From the comments, it's obvious it's a forced marriage and that the OP couldn't do anything about it. It's not about her husbands family, it's also her family that first "sold" or forced her to marry, and then they want her to live with that guy. Who knows, may be some blood is in danger to be spilled if she plainly refuse to go. That all being said, I wish her good look to find a way to do it without putting herself in any kind of danger.
anonymfus 13y ago
Easiest way is to strike out your visa in your passport.
Fuxy 13y ago
This can be solved with just the following: "Honey I love you but i can go through that ordeal i had last time again. I love my life here and i don't want to go we're going to have to find another way." If you can't be straight with your husband you might as well divorce now it's not going to get easier.
- aurumpotest 13y ago
  As she said on stackexchange, she was forced to marry her husband, who is 15 years older than she is, by her family. So I'd guess it's not as simple as that.
  - Fuxy 13y ago
    My bad must have missed that part. See my other comments then.
- aestra 13y ago
  Yeah friggin right. This woman is Pakistani. An Islamic marriage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Islam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Islam) is between a man and the wali of a woman, who gives her to the husband to be his wife, NOT a contract between the two members of the marriage. A wali is a "guardian" of a women. (or really, owner) The bride does not even need to be present when the marriage contract is signed. >Honey I love you She does not appear to love or even like her husband. Disobeying her family is punishable by death. It also brings great shame to her family and can endanger her mother for example.
Hansi 13y ago
I fear this will get a lot of "Just say no" comments from people that don't understand that the author is from Pakistan and most likely grew up in a completely different culture than most of us are used to. And it seems like she's not villing/able to cut of contact with her family as I would maybe do if I were in her place, but I'll never be so it's hard to even imagine what I'd do.
- agilebyte 13y ago
  Plus she says deporting the husband did not work and her relatives are apparently working on JFK. What a mix.
- JetSpiegel 13y ago
  From [1]: I have said "No" but being a Pakistani girl there's nothing I can do. I was even forced to marry that guy who is 15 years older than me. And I would say goodbye to everything but I have to wait for the right time. I'm being mean though, I need my family right now to support me until I finish my school. And then it will be up to me. I know I sound selfish but it's nothing compared to what they've done to me and my life [1]: https://travel.stackexchange.com/a/24553 https://travel.stackexchange.com/a/24553
- strictfp 13y ago
  Even though this advice isn't something she might consider in her current situation, it might be good for her to hear it. After all, she's basically a hostage in this situation, and hearing people confirm this might prevent her from getting stuck in a "Stockholm syndrome". And frankly, I think her best move in this situation would be to say no and find refuge for herself. Yes, family members might get seriously injured as a result, but the way I see it there is no other way of breaking free from such an oppressive culture. Everything is set up to lure you back.
  - tinco 13y ago
    You are forgetting that she is in college, and desires to continue to do so. Overtly saying no will most likely result in family or friends of family going after her in Spain. Once you enter the Shengen area of Europe, which is reachable by car from Pakistan you can basically get anywhere. There are countless easily traversed borders to this area in corrupt/poorer countries. After that there's close to no border checks. It is really easy for friends/family to get to Spain and make her life difficult there.
geff82 13y ago
Families are MUCH closer in Pakistan and the rest of the Middle East than they are in the western world. Doing things against the families will can get you in big trouble and leave you without your family at all. The main difference between the Middle East and the West is: in the west, you grow up and you are taught by your parents how to stay on your own. That is why Westerners often only see their parents and brothers and sisters occasionally. In the Middle East, you grow up to be a good part of the family for the rest of your life. As I married a girl from the Middle East I had to learn and feel the differences and resulting occasional tensions. So to say it short: you normally are not supposed to leave your family in Pakistan. So this girl feels she is in great trouble, even if the solution may seem so simple for us.
- songshu 13y ago
  Pakistan is not a Middle Eastern country
  - Dylan16807 13y ago
    >The first official use of the term "Middle East" by the United States government was in the 1957 Eisenhower Doctrine, which pertained to the Suez Crisis. Secretary of State John Foster Dulles defined the Middle East as "the area lying between and including Libya on the west and Pakistan on the east, Syria and Iraq on the North and the Arabian peninsula to the south, plus the Sudan and Ethiopia." Pakistan is on the edge, including or excluding it's more of an opinion thing.
    - einhverfr 13y ago
      It depends on what you mean though. If you include the Islamic Indo-Iranian states, Pakistan is. If you exclude them, Iran and Afghanistan are not. Maybe the right answer is "the Middle East is a spherical cow anyway."
      - acomar 13y ago
        That's what happens when you try to draw lines in sand...
tarekmoz 13y ago
I think this will work: - "What's the purpose of your visit?" - "I will be looking for a job in the U.S." - "But you have a visitor's VISA here" - "Oh.. mmm.. but I am coming here to work" - "I am sorry this is not going to work out"
- drrotmos 13y ago
  Or, rather than lying to the border agent (which I believe is a crime in the US, isn't it?), she could simply tell the truth: that she's visiting her husband and that she'll most likely be coerced to overstay her visa. That should get her entry denied too.
  - outworlder 13y ago
    Precisely. Not sure if it is a crime or not (probably!), but lying is never a good idea, specially to an immigration agent. Just telling the truth should suffice. The only issue is if it will cause trouble later on should she try to enter again. I assume it would. EDIT: There is probably a 'alien will probably overstay' flag somewhere. Not a 'alien will overstay provided she is still married to an out of status alien'.
- rockdoe 13y ago
  This seems a quite sane and simple answer.
deleted 13y ago
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sergiotapia 13y ago
Wow what trash suggestions that woman is getting. "Just report him." What the fuck SE community? Just ruin the lives of more than one family living in the states just because this girl is too chicken to just say no - from thousands of miles away no less.
- marquis 13y ago
  She's not chicken. Saying that is disrespectful to the culture she is coming from. She is trying to find the most diplomatic way to extricate herself from an arranged marriage without destroying her connections to her family.
  - LaGrange 13y ago
    Please note that when she says about different culture she doesn’t mean even she respects it, in any other way that you might „respect” a bully. It’s not about destroying her connection with family, it’s about avoiding violence against her, her mother and her sister.
    - marquis 13y ago
      Yes that was my meaning, thanks for clarifying. I'm well against arranged marriages but support whatever she needs to do to get through this diplomatically.
  - BlackDeath3 13y ago
    >Saying that is disrespectful to the culture she is coming from. I'm getting the feeling that the culture she comes from is causing her to fear for her life because of disobedience. She may deserve respect herself, but her culture certainly doesn't.
    - Nursie 13y ago
      Could not agree more. Cultural sensitivity is one thing, acceptance of this is different entirely.
- 13y ago
myzerox 13y ago
"I want to start a company, employ US citizens, pay taxes, and drive GDP growth."
- terranstyler 13y ago
  The officials deciding about your status most probably couldn't care less. This is not an opinion but my experience (I tried exactly that line tough in a different country)
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
Nursie 13y ago
Go to the Spanish authorities, tell them the situation (illegally living in the USA) and that you fear for your life and need asylum in Spain. F*ck the sort of family that marries you to someone 15 years older against your will, frankly.
- vacri 13y ago
  Would forced marriage be okay if the age difference was smaller?
dobbsbob 13y ago
Easy, when asked why you are are entering the states say 'no reason' and get a 24hr to year long ban. I've tested this when my idiot friend gave that response while we were driving across the peace arch border.
- pyre 13y ago
  Might be different if you have a Canadian passport, than if you have a Pakistani passport.
mherdeg 13y ago
Does Spain have an equivalent to the UK government's "forced marriage unit" ( https://www.gov.uk/forced-marriage https://www.gov.uk/forced-marriage ), an agency whose job is to help people in this kind of situation?
- mherdeg 13y ago
  Looking closer — I think no?. Some of the European countries which criminalize forced marriage, according to this June 2012 survey ( https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/157829/forced-marriage-response.pdf https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm... ), include: Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Denmark, and Germany. In Austria: "Forcing someone into marriage is a distinct criminal offence in Austria. Austrians and people living in Austria are facing legal consequences for such actions only if this kind of marriage occurs within the country’s borders. From January 2012 the Federal Government has amended the anti-forced marriage law to allow prosecutors to press charges against perpetrators over forced marriages abroad. In Belgium: "Forcing someone to marry is a criminal offence." In Cyprus: "Forcing someone to marry is a criminal offence." In Denmark: "The Danish Criminal Code includes an offence of unlawful coercion, prohibiting the use of threats by a person to force another person to do something against their will. This offence would apply to marriage if threats were used to force a person into marriage against their will. The penalty for this offence ranges from a fine to a period of imprisonment not exceeding two years." In Germany: "Forcing someone to marry is a distinct criminal offence and can be punished by up to five years in prison. The law also gives non-German citizens who are forced by their husbands/families to leave the country after their marriage a legal right to return to Germany. " I don't know what I'd do in this situation — I'm not even sure I can understand what it's like. But with a Schengen visa and Spanish residency, one option might be to move to Germany and seek protection from the government there. This is a tough situation for people to be in.
  - deleted 13y ago
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disputin 13y ago
I am clearly not a lawyer: if you tell passport control that you lost your drugs on the plane, there will be no evidence to prosecute you, but they probably won't let you in. More seriously, just don't get on the plane, then after a period of time contact your family and tell them you got refused entry. Spend a day or two at the airport or a nearby hotel.
- fleitz 13y ago
  No no no, please do not mention anything about drugs, you will get a lifetime ban.
  - mrcasual 13y ago
    Yes, but that one sure way to get denied entry. Under Sec. 212 (8 U.S.C.1182) you are ineligible to receive visas and ineligible to be admitted to the United States if you 'voluntarily admit to having committed a crime involving moral turpitude Here's a recent story: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/White+Rock+woman+barred+from+after+admitting+marijuana/8865511/story.html http://www.vancouversun.com/news/White+Rock+woman+barred+fro...
runarberg 13y ago
It's a pity I can't answer on the SE but I have experience in this matter, I came to the US (through Newark) once with a visa to stay for 6 months, without proof of financial support, without contact information for somebody in the US, reluctance to tell my purpose, and a tent as my means of accommodation. I was taken to a back room where they were going to deny me entry, but I manage to persuade them that I had an uncle living in Texas and a friend in Oregon. So my advice is, go there without money, accommodation, contacts or purpose, and they won't let you in.
vpeters25 13y ago
My advice to her: NEVER get in trouble with any country's government on purpose, completely abandon this line of thought and figure out something else. I bet she would rather live with her "stupid in-laws" than in a Federal PMITA facility.
- jessaustin 13y ago
  IANAL, I doubt that the penalty for being denied entry is anal rape in a federal penitentiary. I thought the penalty was, you know, being denied entry.
whizzkid 13y ago
Most of suggestions people give on this problem is like this; Problem: Site doesn't work in IE Solution: Then don't use it. It is not that easy. Her problem is really complex one. As i can not answer it on site (protected question), i will try to give some ideas to her here. She needs to somehow trick the family members and the husband in US. One solution can be getting a fake paper that wants her to give information about the people she is related in US. This can stop family members asking her to come to US, since her husband is not legally living there. But connecting this fake paper to her travel to US is little tricky. Family needs to somehow believe that it is coming from government. Maybe women rights association can help with this one, if she can reach them. The other option can be to somehow make them believe that she took the flight but they send her back. In this case she needs to find a really good excuse that family members will believe and will not investigate further. If you think these are reasonable ideas, please let her know on travel.stackexchange, because i can not.
einhverfr 13y ago
An obvious answer is go to the US and sue for divorce, and return to Pakistan?
- aestra 13y ago
  Except their marriage is probably a Pakistani one.
  - einhverfr 13y ago
    Question: Will Pakistan recognize the divorce as long as they were living in the US at the time? My bet would be on yes.
    - aestra 13y ago
      An Islamic marriage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Islam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Islam) is between a man and the wali of a woman, who gives her to the husband to be his wife, NOT a contract between the two members of the marriage. A wali is a "guardian" of a women. (or really, owner) She needs consent from her wali. Pakistan can just say "did your wali sign off on this? Nope? Well that's not a valid divorce." There's no actual legal recourse for not accepting legal agreements made in other states. Hell, many states in the US don't recognize legal (homosexual) marriages from other states.
      - einhverfr 13y ago
        But Pakistan has a hybrid Islamic/British legal system. This becomes a conflict of laws question and I dont think you can simply ask "is it Islamic?"
  - guard-of-terra 13y ago
    If it's registered it should be internationally recognized in USA and thus prone to suing for divorce?
deleted 13y ago
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einhverfr 13y ago
I think the traditional solution is to go say yes, move in. Start breaking things (dishes and stuff) until he asks for a divorce. Bonus points for making it plausibly an accident. Go home. At least that is what I have read about Morocco where the divorce rate is relatively high. It seems relatively common elsewhere as well, in my experience. One of the things that is not to like (especially if you are a woman) in many Middle Eastern countries is that the household matriarch is the husband's mother and the households are patrilocal. This means that if you are a woman and you get married, you end up as a very low-status individual until your first son is married and then you have status and power to make his wife as miserable as you were. So it isn't a good situation but one thing to keep in mind is that being in a more individualistic culture gives you options. My recommendation would not be to try to get denied entry at all but to go. Then evaluate your options, build contacts, and see what you need to do. The US culture and legal system doesn't support the same kinds of things and this can bring some power.
logfromblammo 13y ago
Hacker News is very qualified to give this person technical advice, but her problem originates in human relationships, and the solution requires some amount of diplomacy. Everything we say on this matter is useless until confirmed by an outside party not afflicted by an ultrarational engineer brain. That said... In recent years, the US government has ramped up its training for federal employees on recognizing and interdicting human trafficking. It might suffice to tell the border agent, "I have been subjected to a forced marriage, and the man's family is attempting to import me to the United States against my will. Once here, I will be little more than a slave. But if I refuse, I will probably be murdered. Will you help me?" This is likely to make a bad situation worse, but that's the best I can come up with. The lady is probably better off traveling to a Germanic or Scandinavian country and appealing to a feminist organization instead of getting on a plane to the US.
johnny635 13y ago
Now that's a passive aggressive way to solve issues...
- Gracana 13y ago
  Active aggression from a Pakistani wife in an arranged marriage may be imprudent.
tantaman 13y ago
Interesting story but I hope it doesn't spread. Would suck if her family sees this and figures out it is her.
vladimirralev 13y ago
Just fill out this form on entry http://www.usvisalawyers.co.uk/images/I-94form.gif http://www.usvisalawyers.co.uk/images/I-94form.gif with a lot of "Yes".
MichaelGG 13y ago
If she's coming over to live, then she should be denied entry anyways. Perhaps just stay straight-out "I'm moving here." Maybe throw in something about maybe getting a job "To have more money for our family." Neither of those are total lies, but any CBP agent that's not asleep should block entry. She might even just tell them the situation, ask to see a supervisor and go from there. They may be able to provide something better on her record that way. Although it can really depend on who she gets. My wife came over to see me after I moved to the US after just losing our daughter. She had a 10-year multi-entry visa, had come and gone several times before. They held her for a couple of hours, went through all her stuff (which is to be expected), but then demanded to know why she was sad about losing a child, why she had written about her child if she had died, and on and on. My wife decided she'll never fly through the US again. Once I got an agent, first thing out of his mouth was "you're going to miss your flight". When I said he didn't know when it was (I had a 3 hour layover), he said it didn't matter, he'd make sure. Other times, they barely even glance up and wave me through.
- turar 13y ago
  > When I said he didn't know when it was (I had a 3 hour layover), he said it didn't matter, he'd make sure. Why did (s)he do that? Did you miss your flight?
  - MichaelGG 13y ago
    Every now and then, I get a CBP agent that is having a bad day. Most of the time they are professional, polite, and efficient enough. This guy went on about all sorts of things, including stating that attending a tradeshow required a work visa. I didn't miss my flight because I had a long layover. He took my passport and sent me to secondary control. Upon admittance, one of the agents there rolled his eyes and speedily got me taken care of and on my way. He did succeed at wasting 40 minutes of my time though.
ef4 13y ago
I know better than to try to give advice when I can't relate at all to her situation. But I would just like to take this opportunity to say "fuck you" to her relatives in the United States. Economic opportunity and personal liberty are a package deal, you want one without the other and you're playing with fire. You're guaranteed to lose, either quickly or slowly. Quickly if this young woman continues down the path she's clearly already on and calls down the weight of the state on your heads. Slowly if you win this round, only to see your grandchildren grow up fully-Americanized.
- rjzzleep 13y ago
  uh ok, i tell you what. i grew up in germany, i'm highly educated, i speak fluent german without accent(you know like most people that were born in the us, speak english without an accent). in fact i speak 4 languages fluent+ a little of a couple others. everyone that had to deal with me on a personal level tried to hire me at some point. when i came back from the states i met a buttload of people that were telling me how racist the americans are. so i asked one just a few days back. "tell me, so everyones telling me how racist they are in the south, and it's kinda true, but how do you guys treat black people over here anyway?" you know what she answered? "it's different" when i entered the train station with my bike yesterday, i almost got beaten up by security guards. you know why? because i got into the train station with a bike, and well just because ... ;) and you know what the two germans did that saw that? they told me this: "you better run away, they might come down and beat you up" talk about opportunity. yes, germany gives you the opportunity to study. for free. in some of the best universities of the planet. but you pay the price in a different manner. you know how much the TSA sucks? you wanna know why you don't hear about patdowns in germany? because they're not even newsworthy. edit: people make their choices, so what the op does is up to them. i consider it a little foolish. but on other hand think about it. it doesn't seem like she wants to get banned for life. otherwise she could have just posted some stupid thing on twitter like others have done
  - dTal 13y ago
    In my experience, most people that were born in the U.S. speak English with an atrocious accent.
grdvnl 13y ago
One other option worth considering: 1. Loose your passport 2. Get a new passport 3. Apply for new US visa to keep parents happy 4. Get rejected at the visa office Just avoids re-entry, and buys time may be till she is done with her college.
etanazir 13y ago
Be careful not to fall down into one of the sex slave pits that bespeckle western civilization.
htns 13y ago
All her problems boil down to a lack of money. She should just take a student loan to become "financially independent". No idea if she has access to one though
- Pitarou 13y ago
  No. It's not that simple. Of course, money can solve a lot of problems, but if she openly defies and (in their eyes) dishonours her family, she can expect retaliation. And they will use the people she loves and cares about the most to get at her.
  - htns 13y ago
    She is fully expecting to dishonor her family in the near future, just not before they have paid for her college.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - Pitarou 13y ago
      And not before she's got her mom safely out of Pakistan.
alexeisadeski3 13y ago
Every single piece of advice amongst the top comments over there is straight up idiotic.
spc476 13y ago
I'm surprised no one came up with the "NO-FLY" list excuse. If she goes to the airport alone, that's trivial---she goes to the airport, waits an hour, comes back and says, "I was refused because I am on the US' no-fly list." The US does not confirm nor deny any name on the list, so it's hard to check.

175 points by nsaparanoid 13y ago

smcl 13y ago

This doesn't sound like a great idea. A friend of mine with an Indian passport and a valid UK work visa was visiting Northern Ireland and decided to try to sneak a quick bus trip into Republic of Ireland. Their bus was randomly stopped and everyone's passports were checked (these are pretty infrequent, I believe), the police quickly noticed they didn't have a valid visa for Ireland, took their details and then took them back to the North. Later that year he had a bit of trouble visiting mainland EU, the immigration officials cited his previous attempt to illegally enter Ireland - evidently it had been logged in some EU immigration database and can follow you around for a while. And this is just Ireland, I imagine the repercussions of getting denied from the US are a little more severe.

drrotmos 13y ago
Being denied entry isn't illegal, and isn't necessarily going to adversely affect future entry attempts. Overstaying your visa, or illegally entering a country on the other hand is a crime. If you have committed crimes in a country, you will have a harder time getting in next time.
- bigd 13y ago
  careful: there's a difference to point out here - Visas are for entering/exiting the country and are the stamps on the passport. Then you can stay as long as you have your residence permit. Example: #when you enter the country you get DS2019: 1yr #residence permit Visa: 1yr # from when you enter the country until you leave the country: if your contract get renewed (DS2019++) else illegal the visa in your passport is worth nothing when inside the US. the fact that the two are confused might be very misleading.
- usaphp 13y ago
  Overstaying your visa is not a crime. The Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) contains only civil penalties for an immigrant who overstays her visa. This means that immigrants with an expired visa will not be charged criminally or serve time in jail. Entering country illegally however IS a crime.
rplnt 13y ago
Ireland is a member state of EU. It's understandable how that can affect EU's view on you. I don't know what US could affect. Perhaps some country that US invaded and is in control off?
- khuey 13y ago
  You don't think the EU and the US share information here?
jotm 13y ago
I was confused at first, then I remembered UK is not a Schengen member - if you get a UK visa, it's for the UK only; if you get a visa for any other EU country, you can go wherever you want in the EU, except the UK. Weird situation :-)
- jeremysmyth 13y ago
  Ireland has opted out too. UK and Ireland are part of a "Common Travel Area" (a region that doesn't require passports to travel within, and which includes other islands in the British Isles), but aren't in Schengen.
- _delirium 13y ago
  There's exceptions in the other direction as well: Norway, Switzerland, and Iceland aren't EU members, but Schengen visas are valid there.
k-mcgrady 13y ago
I presume this was many years ago. There aren't any border checks I know of between the North and South or Ireland these days. I take the bus and train to Dublin all the time and drive there quite often and have not seen a checkpoint since the 90's.
- Fomite 13y ago
  The only bus I ever took from Dublin to Belfast and back was boarded by immigration and our papers checked. This was 2006.
  - k-mcgrady 13y ago
    That's very strange. According to wikipedia: "There are no longer any operational customs posts along either side of the border."[1] The last check I remember was in the 90's and I don't think it was a customs check, it was a military checkpoint. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland–United_Kingdom_border#Customs_and_identity_checks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland–United_King...
    - Fomite 13y ago
      It may have been them looking for someone specific - it was the middle of the night, and the Garda aren't exactly the most talkative of government agencies.

yason 13y ago

The reason why this was asked is baffling to me. If you don't want to go, then do not go. I assume the AP was an adult. Adults don't need to resort to tricks like trying to get rejected: adults can just reject the invite themselves.

maxerickson 13y ago
It's baffling you think this is true for everyone.
Fuxy 13y ago
Some people let themselves be force into things. I find it quite sad that they lack the strength to just say no. Edit: Peer pressure is a bitch especially when it's from your own family but don't let yourself be manipulated by it. Edit2: Some people have pointed out that it's not easy and in certain cultures be enough to kill a person. Now it's amazing that this in this day and age that is acceptable but i guess you can get away with anything if you say the magic word: "It's my religion/culture". However ask yourself this: I have 1 life am i willing to spend it all in a cage with some people i barely know making the rules? If the answer is yes the the give up already you don't have a choice if the answer is no do whatever it takes.
- hav 13y ago
  It's hard to have the strength to say no in certain situations. Not everyone is in the same position as you to say no.
- levosmetalo 13y ago
  It's not only about personal strength, no one is strong enough to change deep cultural heritage and go alone against 1000 year long culture in which woman has no say. From the comments, it's obvious it's a forced marriage and that the OP couldn't do anything about it. It's not about her husbands family, it's also her family that first "sold" or forced her to marry, and then they want her to live with that guy. Who knows, may be some blood is in danger to be spilled if she plainly refuse to go. That all being said, I wish her good look to find a way to do it without putting herself in any kind of danger.

anonymfus 13y ago

Easiest way is to strike out your visa in your passport.

Fuxy 13y ago

This can be solved with just the following: "Honey I love you but i can go through that ordeal i had last time again. I love my life here and i don't want to go we're going to have to find another way." If you can't be straight with your husband you might as well divorce now it's not going to get easier.

aurumpotest 13y ago
As she said on stackexchange, she was forced to marry her husband, who is 15 years older than she is, by her family. So I'd guess it's not as simple as that.
- Fuxy 13y ago
  My bad must have missed that part. See my other comments then.
aestra 13y ago
Yeah friggin right. This woman is Pakistani. An Islamic marriage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Islam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Islam) is between a man and the wali of a woman, who gives her to the husband to be his wife, NOT a contract between the two members of the marriage. A wali is a "guardian" of a women. (or really, owner) The bride does not even need to be present when the marriage contract is signed. >Honey I love you She does not appear to love or even like her husband. Disobeying her family is punishable by death. It also brings great shame to her family and can endanger her mother for example.

Hansi 13y ago

I fear this will get a lot of "Just say no" comments from people that don't understand that the author is from Pakistan and most likely grew up in a completely different culture than most of us are used to. And it seems like she's not villing/able to cut of contact with her family as I would maybe do if I were in her place, but I'll never be so it's hard to even imagine what I'd do.

agilebyte 13y ago
Plus she says deporting the husband did not work and her relatives are apparently working on JFK. What a mix.
JetSpiegel 13y ago
From [1]: I have said "No" but being a Pakistani girl there's nothing I can do. I was even forced to marry that guy who is 15 years older than me. And I would say goodbye to everything but I have to wait for the right time. I'm being mean though, I need my family right now to support me until I finish my school. And then it will be up to me. I know I sound selfish but it's nothing compared to what they've done to me and my life [1]: https://travel.stackexchange.com/a/24553 https://travel.stackexchange.com/a/24553
strictfp 13y ago
Even though this advice isn't something she might consider in her current situation, it might be good for her to hear it. After all, she's basically a hostage in this situation, and hearing people confirm this might prevent her from getting stuck in a "Stockholm syndrome". And frankly, I think her best move in this situation would be to say no and find refuge for herself. Yes, family members might get seriously injured as a result, but the way I see it there is no other way of breaking free from such an oppressive culture. Everything is set up to lure you back.
- tinco 13y ago
  You are forgetting that she is in college, and desires to continue to do so. Overtly saying no will most likely result in family or friends of family going after her in Spain. Once you enter the Shengen area of Europe, which is reachable by car from Pakistan you can basically get anywhere. There are countless easily traversed borders to this area in corrupt/poorer countries. After that there's close to no border checks. It is really easy for friends/family to get to Spain and make her life difficult there.

geff82 13y ago

Families are MUCH closer in Pakistan and the rest of the Middle East than they are in the western world. Doing things against the families will can get you in big trouble and leave you without your family at all. The main difference between the Middle East and the West is: in the west, you grow up and you are taught by your parents how to stay on your own. That is why Westerners often only see their parents and brothers and sisters occasionally. In the Middle East, you grow up to be a good part of the family for the rest of your life. As I married a girl from the Middle East I had to learn and feel the differences and resulting occasional tensions. So to say it short: you normally are not supposed to leave your family in Pakistan. So this girl feels she is in great trouble, even if the solution may seem so simple for us.

songshu 13y ago
Pakistan is not a Middle Eastern country
- Dylan16807 13y ago
  >The first official use of the term "Middle East" by the United States government was in the 1957 Eisenhower Doctrine, which pertained to the Suez Crisis. Secretary of State John Foster Dulles defined the Middle East as "the area lying between and including Libya on the west and Pakistan on the east, Syria and Iraq on the North and the Arabian peninsula to the south, plus the Sudan and Ethiopia." Pakistan is on the edge, including or excluding it's more of an opinion thing.
  - einhverfr 13y ago
    It depends on what you mean though. If you include the Islamic Indo-Iranian states, Pakistan is. If you exclude them, Iran and Afghanistan are not. Maybe the right answer is "the Middle East is a spherical cow anyway."
    - acomar 13y ago
      That's what happens when you try to draw lines in sand...

tarekmoz 13y ago

I think this will work: - "What's the purpose of your visit?" - "I will be looking for a job in the U.S." - "But you have a visitor's VISA here" - "Oh.. mmm.. but I am coming here to work" - "I am sorry this is not going to work out"

drrotmos 13y ago
Or, rather than lying to the border agent (which I believe is a crime in the US, isn't it?), she could simply tell the truth: that she's visiting her husband and that she'll most likely be coerced to overstay her visa. That should get her entry denied too.
- outworlder 13y ago
  Precisely. Not sure if it is a crime or not (probably!), but lying is never a good idea, specially to an immigration agent. Just telling the truth should suffice. The only issue is if it will cause trouble later on should she try to enter again. I assume it would. EDIT: There is probably a 'alien will probably overstay' flag somewhere. Not a 'alien will overstay provided she is still married to an out of status alien'.
rockdoe 13y ago
This seems a quite sane and simple answer.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

sergiotapia 13y ago

Wow what trash suggestions that woman is getting. "Just report him." What the fuck SE community? Just ruin the lives of more than one family living in the states just because this girl is too chicken to just say no - from thousands of miles away no less.

marquis 13y ago
She's not chicken. Saying that is disrespectful to the culture she is coming from. She is trying to find the most diplomatic way to extricate herself from an arranged marriage without destroying her connections to her family.
- LaGrange 13y ago
  Please note that when she says about different culture she doesn’t mean even she respects it, in any other way that you might „respect” a bully. It’s not about destroying her connection with family, it’s about avoiding violence against her, her mother and her sister.
  - marquis 13y ago
    Yes that was my meaning, thanks for clarifying. I'm well against arranged marriages but support whatever she needs to do to get through this diplomatically.
- BlackDeath3 13y ago
  >Saying that is disrespectful to the culture she is coming from. I'm getting the feeling that the culture she comes from is causing her to fear for her life because of disobedience. She may deserve respect herself, but her culture certainly doesn't.
  - Nursie 13y ago
    Could not agree more. Cultural sensitivity is one thing, acceptance of this is different entirely.
13y ago

myzerox 13y ago

"I want to start a company, employ US citizens, pay taxes, and drive GDP growth."

terranstyler 13y ago
The officials deciding about your status most probably couldn't care less. This is not an opinion but my experience (I tried exactly that line tough in a different country)
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

Nursie 13y ago

Go to the Spanish authorities, tell them the situation (illegally living in the USA) and that you fear for your life and need asylum in Spain. F*ck the sort of family that marries you to someone 15 years older against your will, frankly.

vacri 13y ago
Would forced marriage be okay if the age difference was smaller?

dobbsbob 13y ago

Easy, when asked why you are are entering the states say 'no reason' and get a 24hr to year long ban. I've tested this when my idiot friend gave that response while we were driving across the peace arch border.

pyre 13y ago
Might be different if you have a Canadian passport, than if you have a Pakistani passport.

mherdeg 13y ago

Does Spain have an equivalent to the UK government's "forced marriage unit" ( https://www.gov.uk/forced-marriage https://www.gov.uk/forced-marriage ), an agency whose job is to help people in this kind of situation?

mherdeg 13y ago
Looking closer — I think no?. Some of the European countries which criminalize forced marriage, according to this June 2012 survey ( https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/157829/forced-marriage-response.pdf https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm... ), include: Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Denmark, and Germany. In Austria: "Forcing someone into marriage is a distinct criminal offence in Austria. Austrians and people living in Austria are facing legal consequences for such actions only if this kind of marriage occurs within the country’s borders. From January 2012 the Federal Government has amended the anti-forced marriage law to allow prosecutors to press charges against perpetrators over forced marriages abroad. In Belgium: "Forcing someone to marry is a criminal offence." In Cyprus: "Forcing someone to marry is a criminal offence." In Denmark: "The Danish Criminal Code includes an offence of unlawful coercion, prohibiting the use of threats by a person to force another person to do something against their will. This offence would apply to marriage if threats were used to force a person into marriage against their will. The penalty for this offence ranges from a fine to a period of imprisonment not exceeding two years." In Germany: "Forcing someone to marry is a distinct criminal offence and can be punished by up to five years in prison. The law also gives non-German citizens who are forced by their husbands/families to leave the country after their marriage a legal right to return to Germany. " I don't know what I'd do in this situation — I'm not even sure I can understand what it's like. But with a Schengen visa and Spanish residency, one option might be to move to Germany and seek protection from the government there. This is a tough situation for people to be in.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

disputin 13y ago

I am clearly not a lawyer: if you tell passport control that you lost your drugs on the plane, there will be no evidence to prosecute you, but they probably won't let you in. More seriously, just don't get on the plane, then after a period of time contact your family and tell them you got refused entry. Spend a day or two at the airport or a nearby hotel.

fleitz 13y ago
No no no, please do not mention anything about drugs, you will get a lifetime ban.
- mrcasual 13y ago
  Yes, but that one sure way to get denied entry. Under Sec. 212 (8 U.S.C.1182) you are ineligible to receive visas and ineligible to be admitted to the United States if you 'voluntarily admit to having committed a crime involving moral turpitude Here's a recent story: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/White+Rock+woman+barred+from+after+admitting+marijuana/8865511/story.html http://www.vancouversun.com/news/White+Rock+woman+barred+fro...

runarberg 13y ago

It's a pity I can't answer on the SE but I have experience in this matter, I came to the US (through Newark) once with a visa to stay for 6 months, without proof of financial support, without contact information for somebody in the US, reluctance to tell my purpose, and a tent as my means of accommodation. I was taken to a back room where they were going to deny me entry, but I manage to persuade them that I had an uncle living in Texas and a friend in Oregon. So my advice is, go there without money, accommodation, contacts or purpose, and they won't let you in.

vpeters25 13y ago

My advice to her: NEVER get in trouble with any country's government on purpose, completely abandon this line of thought and figure out something else. I bet she would rather live with her "stupid in-laws" than in a Federal PMITA facility.

jessaustin 13y ago
IANAL, I doubt that the penalty for being denied entry is anal rape in a federal penitentiary. I thought the penalty was, you know, being denied entry.

whizzkid 13y ago

Most of suggestions people give on this problem is like this; Problem: Site doesn't work in IE Solution: Then don't use it. It is not that easy. Her problem is really complex one. As i can not answer it on site (protected question), i will try to give some ideas to her here. She needs to somehow trick the family members and the husband in US. One solution can be getting a fake paper that wants her to give information about the people she is related in US. This can stop family members asking her to come to US, since her husband is not legally living there. But connecting this fake paper to her travel to US is little tricky. Family needs to somehow believe that it is coming from government. Maybe women rights association can help with this one, if she can reach them. The other option can be to somehow make them believe that she took the flight but they send her back. In this case she needs to find a really good excuse that family members will believe and will not investigate further. If you think these are reasonable ideas, please let her know on travel.stackexchange, because i can not.

einhverfr 13y ago

An obvious answer is go to the US and sue for divorce, and return to Pakistan?

aestra 13y ago
Except their marriage is probably a Pakistani one.
- einhverfr 13y ago
  Question: Will Pakistan recognize the divorce as long as they were living in the US at the time? My bet would be on yes.
  - aestra 13y ago
    An Islamic marriage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Islam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Islam) is between a man and the wali of a woman, who gives her to the husband to be his wife, NOT a contract between the two members of the marriage. A wali is a "guardian" of a women. (or really, owner) She needs consent from her wali. Pakistan can just say "did your wali sign off on this? Nope? Well that's not a valid divorce." There's no actual legal recourse for not accepting legal agreements made in other states. Hell, many states in the US don't recognize legal (homosexual) marriages from other states.
    - einhverfr 13y ago
      But Pakistan has a hybrid Islamic/British legal system. This becomes a conflict of laws question and I dont think you can simply ask "is it Islamic?"
- guard-of-terra 13y ago
  If it's registered it should be internationally recognized in USA and thus prone to suing for divorce?

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

einhverfr 13y ago

I think the traditional solution is to go say yes, move in. Start breaking things (dishes and stuff) until he asks for a divorce. Bonus points for making it plausibly an accident. Go home. At least that is what I have read about Morocco where the divorce rate is relatively high. It seems relatively common elsewhere as well, in my experience. One of the things that is not to like (especially if you are a woman) in many Middle Eastern countries is that the household matriarch is the husband's mother and the households are patrilocal. This means that if you are a woman and you get married, you end up as a very low-status individual until your first son is married and then you have status and power to make his wife as miserable as you were. So it isn't a good situation but one thing to keep in mind is that being in a more individualistic culture gives you options. My recommendation would not be to try to get denied entry at all but to go. Then evaluate your options, build contacts, and see what you need to do. The US culture and legal system doesn't support the same kinds of things and this can bring some power.

logfromblammo 13y ago

Hacker News is very qualified to give this person technical advice, but her problem originates in human relationships, and the solution requires some amount of diplomacy. Everything we say on this matter is useless until confirmed by an outside party not afflicted by an ultrarational engineer brain. That said... In recent years, the US government has ramped up its training for federal employees on recognizing and interdicting human trafficking. It might suffice to tell the border agent, "I have been subjected to a forced marriage, and the man's family is attempting to import me to the United States against my will. Once here, I will be little more than a slave. But if I refuse, I will probably be murdered. Will you help me?" This is likely to make a bad situation worse, but that's the best I can come up with. The lady is probably better off traveling to a Germanic or Scandinavian country and appealing to a feminist organization instead of getting on a plane to the US.

johnny635 13y ago

Now that's a passive aggressive way to solve issues...

Gracana 13y ago
Active aggression from a Pakistani wife in an arranged marriage may be imprudent.

tantaman 13y ago

Interesting story but I hope it doesn't spread. Would suck if her family sees this and figures out it is her.

vladimirralev 13y ago

Just fill out this form on entry http://www.usvisalawyers.co.uk/images/I-94form.gif http://www.usvisalawyers.co.uk/images/I-94form.gif with a lot of "Yes".

MichaelGG 13y ago

If she's coming over to live, then she should be denied entry anyways. Perhaps just stay straight-out "I'm moving here." Maybe throw in something about maybe getting a job "To have more money for our family." Neither of those are total lies, but any CBP agent that's not asleep should block entry. She might even just tell them the situation, ask to see a supervisor and go from there. They may be able to provide something better on her record that way. Although it can really depend on who she gets. My wife came over to see me after I moved to the US after just losing our daughter. She had a 10-year multi-entry visa, had come and gone several times before. They held her for a couple of hours, went through all her stuff (which is to be expected), but then demanded to know why she was sad about losing a child, why she had written about her child if she had died, and on and on. My wife decided she'll never fly through the US again. Once I got an agent, first thing out of his mouth was "you're going to miss your flight". When I said he didn't know when it was (I had a 3 hour layover), he said it didn't matter, he'd make sure. Other times, they barely even glance up and wave me through.

turar 13y ago
> When I said he didn't know when it was (I had a 3 hour layover), he said it didn't matter, he'd make sure. Why did (s)he do that? Did you miss your flight?
- MichaelGG 13y ago
  Every now and then, I get a CBP agent that is having a bad day. Most of the time they are professional, polite, and efficient enough. This guy went on about all sorts of things, including stating that attending a tradeshow required a work visa. I didn't miss my flight because I had a long layover. He took my passport and sent me to secondary control. Upon admittance, one of the agents there rolled his eyes and speedily got me taken care of and on my way. He did succeed at wasting 40 minutes of my time though.

ef4 13y ago

I know better than to try to give advice when I can't relate at all to her situation. But I would just like to take this opportunity to say "fuck you" to her relatives in the United States. Economic opportunity and personal liberty are a package deal, you want one without the other and you're playing with fire. You're guaranteed to lose, either quickly or slowly. Quickly if this young woman continues down the path she's clearly already on and calls down the weight of the state on your heads. Slowly if you win this round, only to see your grandchildren grow up fully-Americanized.

rjzzleep 13y ago
uh ok, i tell you what. i grew up in germany, i'm highly educated, i speak fluent german without accent(you know like most people that were born in the us, speak english without an accent). in fact i speak 4 languages fluent+ a little of a couple others. everyone that had to deal with me on a personal level tried to hire me at some point. when i came back from the states i met a buttload of people that were telling me how racist the americans are. so i asked one just a few days back. "tell me, so everyones telling me how racist they are in the south, and it's kinda true, but how do you guys treat black people over here anyway?" you know what she answered? "it's different" when i entered the train station with my bike yesterday, i almost got beaten up by security guards. you know why? because i got into the train station with a bike, and well just because ... ;) and you know what the two germans did that saw that? they told me this: "you better run away, they might come down and beat you up" talk about opportunity. yes, germany gives you the opportunity to study. for free. in some of the best universities of the planet. but you pay the price in a different manner. you know how much the TSA sucks? you wanna know why you don't hear about patdowns in germany? because they're not even newsworthy. edit: people make their choices, so what the op does is up to them. i consider it a little foolish. but on other hand think about it. it doesn't seem like she wants to get banned for life. otherwise she could have just posted some stupid thing on twitter like others have done
- dTal 13y ago
  In my experience, most people that were born in the U.S. speak English with an atrocious accent.

grdvnl 13y ago

One other option worth considering: 1. Loose your passport 2. Get a new passport 3. Apply for new US visa to keep parents happy 4. Get rejected at the visa office Just avoids re-entry, and buys time may be till she is done with her college.

etanazir 13y ago

Be careful not to fall down into one of the sex slave pits that bespeckle western civilization.

htns 13y ago

All her problems boil down to a lack of money. She should just take a student loan to become "financially independent". No idea if she has access to one though

Pitarou 13y ago
No. It's not that simple. Of course, money can solve a lot of problems, but if she openly defies and (in their eyes) dishonours her family, she can expect retaliation. And they will use the people she loves and cares about the most to get at her.
- htns 13y ago
  She is fully expecting to dishonor her family in the near future, just not before they have paid for her college.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - Pitarou 13y ago
    And not before she's got her mom safely out of Pakistan.

alexeisadeski3 13y ago

Every single piece of advice amongst the top comments over there is straight up idiotic.

spc476 13y ago

I'm surprised no one came up with the "NO-FLY" list excuse. If she goes to the airport alone, that's trivial---she goes to the airport, waits an hour, comes back and says, "I was refused because I am on the US' no-fly list." The US does not confirm nor deny any name on the list, so it's hard to check.