8 ms·

Meanwhile, at code.org

227 points by nickmain 13y ago

kbenson 13y ago
Probably best viewed in light of his main site[1] (Warning! May result in feelings of inadequacy), where he goes to great length to do exactly what he thinks these people aren't, explain complex ideas and concepts using programs, programming and the resulting visualizations. [1]: http://worrydream.com/ http://worrydream.com/
- dougk16 13y ago
  "Warning! May result in feelings of inadequacy" Ha ha...yea, usually I get inspired by other people's projects, but visiting worrydream.com just makes me want to quit everything.
  - kbenson 13y ago
    Yeah, The first time I saw it was back in late 2011 when Up and Down the Ladder of Abstraction[1] was linked. After viewing the main site, and sharing it with some friends and co-workers, the feeling was almost unanimous. [1]: http://worrydream.com/LadderOfAbstraction/ http://worrydream.com/LadderOfAbstraction/
- Jormundir 13y ago
  Browsing through his site, all the demonstrations seem to be smoke and mirrors -- or at least props to portray ideas rather than actual tools to use. Just out of curiosity, has he made anything I can actually use? Or does he have any work that is particularly substantial?
  - kbenson 13y ago
    or at least props to portray ideas rather than actual tools to use Exactly. He is thoroughly invested in using technology and programming to teach ideas, concepts and ways to think. Just out of curiosity, has he made anything I can actually use? Or does he have any work that is particularly substantial? His CV[1] link has interesting stuff, but you may not find something immediately useful on his site. Light table was inspired by one of his talks[2] (when I first saw light table I thought it was him following through on the idea). [1]: http://worrydream.com/cv/bret_victor_resume.pdf http://worrydream.com/cv/bret_victor_resume.pdf [2]: http://vimeo.com/36579366 http://vimeo.com/36579366 Edit: Whoops, put a link instead of your quote for the second section.
ambivalence 13y ago
You surely shared this so I can weigh in. No? Not really? Well, here's my opinion anyway. In this infographic Bret Victor claims that expecting college education to prepare you for a day job is an invalid idea. He also implies that an opinion of an MIT mathematician is inherently more trustworthy and correct than opinions of dozens of business leaders, politicians, educators, astronauts, and, oh, Stephen Hawking (“Whether you want to uncover the secrets of the universe, or you just want to pursue a career in the 21st century, basic computer programming is an essential skill to learn.“). Oh, you missed that in his infographic? It's probably because it conveniently wasn't there. Check out the full list at http://code.org/quotes http://code.org/quotes But really, is it fair to compare a long, structured statement with brief quotes that are meant to be an effective marketing tool? Before you cringe at the dirty m-word, consider what is being marketed here. Kids now learn creationism, liberal arts, and opinionated history at school. Coding is a refreshingly logical, concrete and objective field of study. It's worth getting it to the 90% of high schools that don't teach it yet, even if it ends up being trivial if-then-else turtle-make-30-steps-forward. We're at a time where it's more about simply getting the foot in the door. Then again, it's easier to fire up Illustrator and call bullshit on an initiative to bring more rational education to the curriculum. This is the depth of thought that powers elitism and the status quo. Snarky infographics that suggest that programming is worthless without tying it to specific so called Powerful Ideas are harmful. Even if they're drawn by a world-class designer and electrical engineer. Or maybe especially then.
- eruditely 13y ago
  No, he's just being effective. The problem with people who write a lot of meaningful things is that some of it is just useless. The website design is good and effective and a lot of people need to learn from him. If you think his idea is bad it's not going to work writing this, you have to actually fight the war.
- kbenson 13y ago
  But is it more rational education? I think his point is that programming as an end itself does little to help empower students. Programming as a tool to enable further exploration of higher concepts is the goal he thinks we should be pursuing, and if code.org presents programming as the goal and ignores why, then I think he's justified in his criticism. I think it's worth examining history for a parallel. If in the 1920's there was a large push towards mechanical knowledge of the populace (but not necessarily science and engineering) because an understanding of mechanical engines is increasingly essential in todays world, we need 120,000 trained mechanics every year, and the policy at Boeing is literally to hire as many talented mechanics as they can find, I think in hindsight I might also say that it sounds a bit like they are just trying to fill an economic need. Which is fine. But Bret Victor seems to care about teaching and learning, and code.org, from it's main page, seems to care little about that.
pizza 13y ago
Is it fair to equivocate the one or two sentence front-page hooks to the thinking that these people do on a regular basis? edit: intriguing that ambivalence and I posted almost the same thing simultaneously!
coolsunglasses 13y ago
Privileged rich person says other people don't need to worry about obtaining money or power. Not an article headline from The Onion. I nominally agree with him about code.org, just found the surrounding context amusing.
brandonbloom 13y ago
Disclaimer: I worked on Code.org's Blockly tutorials. I'm a fan of Bret Victor's work, but this leaves a real bad taste in my mouth. Frankly, I don't believe that Bret doesn't understand the nature of marketing. He must be aware that http://code.org/quotes http://code.org/quotes is a tool to help influence policy and garner support, rather than a statement on the proposed mechanisms of education. Code.org has lots of empirical evidence that having celebrities involved inspires kids. Having female role models encourages girls to try. Showing national politicians from both sides of the isle eases local policy progress. I'm feeling pretty good about my involvement, because I've seen a lot of comments from parents and teachers like this one: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=538314902931484&set=a.413799078716401.1073741827.309754825787494&type=1&stream_ref=10 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=538314902931484&set=... and videos like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_t3-3vPp-g&feature=c4-overview&list=UUJyEBMU1xVP2be1-AoGS1BA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_t3-3vPp-g&feature=c4-overvi... I taught Scratch in a Harlem classroom once a week in the months leading up to the Hour Of Code and struggled. Once the Angry Birds & Plants vs Zombies tutorials were ready to beta, I tried it on the class and the results were incredible. Kids that did nothing all semester were suddenly cruising through levels and jumping up and down with excitement. When they went back to Scratch, they suddenly were making dramatically more progress and being creative. Should also mention, that we've got tons of unplugged activities and lots of other educational materials too. Even more on the way: http://code.org/educate/curriculum http://code.org/educate/curriculum I've lost a lot of respect for Bret Victor just now because he's belittling the work of people who genuinely care and who would love to see his ideas incorporated. There's a much bigger battle to be fought before we can even consider what he's proposing, but he seems willing to work against incremental progress because it's not revolutionary in quite the way he likes. We've got many types of learning materials at http://code.org/learn http://code.org/learn from all sorts of providers. My contract with Code.org is over, but if Bret wants to show us how its done, I'm sure the team is willing to share our megaphone.
- phillmv 13y ago
  He's belittling the political stance of code.org as represented by its marketing. He's not saying "don't teach kids how to program", he's saying "we're teaching kids how to program for the wrong reasons". The implication is, if you're teaching it for the wrong reasons, we're not doing the best we could for the kids. That's a perfectly valid thing to say, independently of the good intentions and sincere efforts of all the people involved.
electrograv 13y ago
> This is the depth of thought that powers nationwide policy decisions. But hey, congratulations to musician and entertainer will.i.am for at least having an educational philosophy that’s not completely unreasonable or horrifying. Quite frankly I'm shocked and confused by some of the negativity I've seen expressed (including those from the HN community) towards code.org, and the idea of programming as a basic literacy in general. It seems like these people will do almost anything to find something about this idea to pick on, ridicule, discredit, and otherwise attack. Seriously, last time this came up on HN the majority of the discussion was about how horrible it is that this movement uses the phrase "learn to code" rather than "learn to program". Now it's ad hominem attacks against musicians/artists advocating literacy and education -- and what do those attacks say? "Congratulations [...] for having an educational philosophy that's not completely unreasonable and horrifying." What a disgusting backhanded "compliment". Is there something about being a musician or artist that disallows one from having a valid intellectual opinion taken for its own sake, without being patronized? "Aww isn't that cute! A musician/artist having an intellectual idea that isn't completely terrible -- like a quaint little animal trying to imitate us true intellectuals up here in our high tower of superiority." I exaggerate, but this is basically the elitist mentality I perceive behind the actual quote. To me, this comes off as a desperate attempt to defame this movement because it threatens to demote the status of basic technology roles from "elite magic" to "basic literacy" -- and to some people, apparently that's not an amazing social good, but a terrifying prospect of power loss. Am I way off base here in perceiving this? To address the main point: So what if some person never intended to claim that learning to program makes you smarter. Coding is becoming more popular, more socially acceptable, and viewed more positively not only as a career choice but as a basic literacy that will be extremely important in the future (which is true). That's a good thing.
- hackaflocka 13y ago
  It's the same crowd that wants Linux server administration to be obtuse (they want to preserve their power).
- dkuntz2 13y ago
  I personally think that the whole "learn to code" meme is a little silly, but I also think that everyone should be exposed to programming at least once. I think that things like code.org are pretty cool, but the tone most of those projects use is a little off putting to me. They all just sound like "you must learn to code or you're a dinosaur". I don't think that's true, but I also don't think people should be as averse to programming as they are. Or computers for that matter. What's more important in my mind is gleaning a little bit about how computers work. Nothing overly complicated like how a processor or memory work, but that every program is basically just a set of logic routines. The easiest way to do that is probably by teaching a little programming (or logical thinking).
eschaton 13y ago
I'll come right out and say it: learning to program will teach you to think better. It gives you another tool with which to interpret and analyze the world, and if applied well that actually can result in better thought.
- dkuntz2 13y ago
  I think you should amend that from "will" to "could". You could have a terrible teaching, you might not have the will to learn, and you might not learn.
  - elwell 13y ago
    GP said "learning to program", which implies that the person learns.
    - kbenson 13y ago
      I think the point is that learning to program is not necessarily equivalent to learning to think better. They may learn to program, and not learn to think better. Which is what this whole thing is about. Should we be telling people "you need to learn to code" to possibly fuel an economic hole, or should we be telling them "We want to teach you a valuable way to think and reason by using programming" which may address future economic and social needs?
      - pbhjpbhj 13y ago
        "Think better" is a pretty nebulous term but I'm not sure you can learn any new field - especially not one concerning a new manner of problem solving - and not have learnt to "think better".
        dkuntz2 13y ago
        There are lots of CS students who haven't learnt to "think better". They can type out symbols, and know what those symbols mean individually, but they can't combine them in meaningful ways without lots of prompting.
hackaflocka 13y ago
Sheryl Sandberg needs more free female interns!!! But hey, at least she's always willing to go to bat for Larry Summers.
hackaflocka 13y ago
I find a couple of Bret Victor's talk-videos inspiring (mostly due to glimpses of technology that seemingly aren't widely accessible yet). But I cannot for the life of me figure out what he keeps complaining about.
- gavinpc 13y ago
  Sooner or later, even Bret Victor is wrong on the internet.
Smerity 13y ago
I quite like Bret Victor and points he has made previously, but this seems entirely aimed at inspiring a flamewar. I'd love to have a discussion around this, but I don't feel that will happen due to the way the message was portrayed. On that page, he literally takes a paragraph of text from each of the speakers and outputs a single sentence, extreme in interpretation. Code.org isn't just aiming at one person, so they represent multiple points of view. Parents want to know their children will be financially stable, politicians who can influence this at a higher level want to be able to say it will help the nation, and Bill Gates would likely be able to point you to literature showing that introduction to computing concepts at a young age would help understanding of certain topics. Surprise: none of these points can be properly conveyed in one paragraph. I helped make an online learning tool used by thousands of students[1]. I'm tutoring at a computer science summer camp for high school students right now[2] (and have done so for six years). From all this, I've seen the impact that computer science and programming can have on students when correctly introduced. It is truly amazing. It is fundamentally changing. Even if this isn't applicable for all students, there is still a long and hard push to have this adopted more heavily in education. That is Code.org's fight. [1]: https://groklearning.com/ https://groklearning.com/ [2]: http://ncss.edu.au/summer_school/index.html http://ncss.edu.au/summer_school/index.html
elwell 13y ago
Wow, this argument is pretty much the opposite of what I would expect from Bret Victor. 1. It doesn't make sense to use the Papert quote as an assumption of truth. (At least add a commentary to why you agree with Papert (since Papert doesn't explain his reasoning in the given excerpt)) 2. I thought that almost every programmer thinks that learning to program has improved their ability to think about problems; especially, I imagined Bret would.
- david927 13y ago
  Read it again and really spend time thinking about it. You'll see it actually fits perfectly with what he's always believed, and I couldn't agree more. Here it is again: Programming can serve as a medium in which powerful ideas can be brought within reach. But the focus, of course, must be on the powerful ideas, not the programming itself.
wyager 13y ago
Programming literacy today is like writing literacy 500 years ago. You don't need it for every job. You definitely don't need to be an expert at it for most jobs. It's just nice when a lot of people can do it moderately well.
xname 13y ago
Come on. Do you guys have any scientific evidence to support this kind of claim, i.e. learn to code improves your thinking ability in general? Don't treat your conventional assumption as a fact, this is a sign of weakness in your thinking. Even if the claim is true, how does it compare to other subjects? Say, accounting, does learning accounting also improves thinking ability in general? Does accounting also provide thinking tools can be transferred to general problem solving strategies? How much advantage does coding have? If there is such advantage, does it worth for students from accounting to learn to code? You see, this is not a simple issue.
- Crito 13y ago
  Programmers think that learning to code makes you a more rounded person. Painters think that learning to paint makes you a more rounded person. Carpenters think that learning carpentry makes you a more rounded person. If this were one hundred years ago, we'd all be bleating on about how many cars are suddenly popping up, and how all of our children need to become car mechanics (to become rich? to achieve enlightened? to secure our nation's position in emerging world of automation? you decide!). [Disclaimer: I am a cynical and/or dissatisfied programmer]
  - kbenson 13y ago
    [Disclaimer: I am a cynical and/or dissatisfied programmer] As someone whose thought process seems to have gone in a very similar place here[1], I'm interesting why, if you are up for sharing? [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7045317 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7045317
    - Crito 13y ago
      Well, I'm dissatisfied for a number of reasons, some that I am still working on figuring out, but the gist of it seems to be that I chose this career path because I knew I was good at it, knew I could get through school as a CS major, and knew I could get a job in it. Pretty much every reason besides "I thought I would enjoy doing it". Seeing other people push for people to enter the industry for the money and/or jobs, instead of satisfying a passion for the work, has me slightly... annoyed. Annoyed is a good word for it. (I don't want anybody to worry about me; I am currently working on re-adjusting my work/life balance to rein in on this dissatisfaction.) As for cynical... I don't buy into a lot of the more "mystic" ideas of coding that many programmers seem to have. Sure, there is a lot of insight to be had when you study computer science. For example, learning about computability and the Church–Turing–Deutsch principle literally changed my outlook on life; I would not be the same person that I am today if I had not studied computer science... ...but I do not think that computer science is in any way special in this regard. My non-CS peers in university grew in their own personal ways as well. They didn't miss out on anything that I had any more than I missed out on things that they had. That I think, is what many programmers don't understand. They lack exposure to other perspectives, and therefore mistake their own path through life as the obviously correct or superior path.
elwell 13y ago
"View Source" shows imaged text duplicated in display:none block; surely for SEO (I don't see how it would be for accessibility; might be wrong). I was under the impression this SEO tactic is either ignored by search engines or penalized...
- arbus 13y ago
  You would generally want to put that as the title or alt text of the image for it to get indexed correctly without any penalty
knappador 13y ago
I programmed in basic on an old IBM dual-floppy thingamajig in like 1999 or something. We actually didn't program it turns out. I dropped some highschool computer class that turned out to be typing or something. I'm not expecting Chris Bosh to show up in my mailing lists, but of all fights in the universe to pick, taking the time to fling dook at a vast improvement on what I had in middle school? This individual has better things to do. Let's bring up the whole ineffable thing again. It's like a finger pointing at the moon. The finger can only be a pointer. Whatever truth that is in the moon of programming or thinking in general can't be encapsulated in a pill and injected into the liver. A really big pointer directs a lot of attention in the general direction of the moon. Perhaps some of the tech moguls on the list are being realistic about the payoff unless you schlogg hardcore through a product development and your product goes to the moon. Give me a break.
phil 13y ago
This is so strange to see, especially since code.org's tutorials might be the closest thing we've got to a widely used implementation of (some of) Mr. Victor's ideas.
amjaeger 13y ago
This is just odd. I haven't seen any of his other stuff and when I read this I thought he was against teaching kids how to program. From comments in this thread I see why the post is critiquing the reasoning and motives for teaching kids to program. I think that overall I think that his post hurts the movement to teach programming, and doesn't really help to clarify or change the reasons for why programming should be taught in school. Additionally the movement to teach programming before college is making headway (remember whats happening in Chicago?), which is a good thing, and it shouldn't be demonized just because one thinks the motive is bad. Try to influence it positively instead of sending it backwards. Also addressing the "programming isn't for everyone" argument I had to suffer through all the common general studies classes so the argument that programming isn't for everyone is bs, because English and History aren't for me, but I still had to learn it.
- kbenson 13y ago
  Here's something to think about: Should we teach accounting in high school, or math and economics? What is "coding", or "programming"? Maybe in the context you mentioned, it's computer science. Maybe it's learning how to put together a python script to do some stuff. When I was getting my degree in CS, there was quite a bit of grousing from the students about how we were being taught very little about how to actually program. You know what? I doubt that was detrimental to too many people.
Jormundir 13y ago
This whole issue of adding programming / computer science to the curriculum is overstepping and even outright ignoring the problems with our education system. If huge numbers of students graduate from high school without being able to do algebra, what do you think will come of these schools trying to teach kids to program? Imo, this is just the wrong issue to be focusing on. Though it does make for plenty of good PR for the people and companies involved.
- lwan 13y ago
  So you're saying it's wrong for an independent organization to focus its efforts on a particular topic? This is a completely invalid argument. Should you be working your day job while there's still hunger in the first world?
  - vezzy-fnord 13y ago
    Yes, but your analogy is flawed. This is more akin to dumping extra cargo on an overloaded donkey because of its supposed utility. When education rankings are already so poor, adding another layer to the compulsory curriculum complicates the mess even further. What's more is that all of the school districts that are rushing to implement this first (like Chicago) all struggle with low results and inefficient, highly bureaucratic teaching. Something tells me that adding coding (while erroneously calling it "computer science" to make it sound grandiose) will only lead to further mediocrity, deterioration and a lot of kids coming out with false and butchered ideas of what programming entails. It's not that teaching programming is bad, so much as trusting that the compulsory school system will get it right is laughable and a recipe for disaster. This has the potential to go very wrong, or even be ultimately useless if it's just entry-level procedural constructs being repeated ad nauseam. The camp here appears to be divided between people who highly support it at all costs and people who criticize all aspects. I'm more leaning to the latter camp, quite frankly, but one thing we really should all be focusing on is what the hell will they be actually teaching. I have yet to see a conclusive answer.
auggierose 13y ago
Love the 1984ification of Sheryl Sandberg.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
carls 13y ago
The frustration and resentment articulated through the comments here towards Bret Victor's post seems to stem from one of two sources: (a) Bret Victor claiming that code.org is implicitly, via quotes from high-profile figures, supporting a misguided view of computer science education that is overly simplistic and suboptimal towards providing the deeper, more nuanced value that programming can teach. (b) Bret Victor himself being simplistic and uncharitable in mocking the quotes by these high-profile figures. I think Bret is correct to point out (a), but the method that he chose to do so lended itself to an acrimonious response by many people who have good intentions, leading to responses towards (b). I myself was initially annoyed by the tone of his post. But after some thought and reflection, I found myself agreeing with the sentiment expressed by this post. I do think that there is a lot more nuance that could have been communicated when it comes to the value of learning programming. The real debate here, I think, is whether it's reasonable to expect a high-profile figure to comment with such sophistication and nuance, especially within the constraints of a short blurb (which is what I would presume is what their PR person and code.org agreed upon). Is it justified to expect such a degree of nuance from high-status figures and organizations, given the context that computer science education is currently in?
efuquen 13y ago
I'm always astonished by the backlash these topics gets in this community. Are we all really so scared by the idea of trying to make coding more accessible to people of all ages and backgrounds? Is there some irreparable harm being done to the community and the profession? Even if you think this is another dotcom craze, which I would debate, it looks like we all survived that quite well if we've come back full circle. I would ask you, how many of you have actually tried to teach kids how to code? How many of you have the experience to back up your assertion that it's simply "too hard" and only a select few should have the privilege? I would imagine a handful and I would be surprised to hear anyone who has had that experience tell me it's been a negative one (if it was I would sincerely love to hear it and find out what issues you had). For the past six months I've been teaching kids, at the high school level, with little to no background in programming and all of whom Engilsh isn't even their first language (it's an internationally diverse school), web development skills (js/html/css). What I've found, which is pretty much what I expected, was a varying degree of proficiency, some kids have gotten it really quickly and some have needed a lot more help. But overall I've been amazed at their progress and am totally convinced that this is something that needs to happen in more schools at a wider scale. There are real problems in trying to tackle this problem. I've met actual teachers that have been involved in trying to teach CS curriculum and there is definitely a lack of professional training among them. What they could really use is the tech communities help and support, not their derision and dismissal, it's so easy to view this from a cynical perspective instead of trying to actually get something done. If any of you are actually interested in trying to teach and see for yourselves whether this is worthwhile and you live in the NYC area take a look at ScriptEd (http://scripted.org/ http://scripted.org/). Their focus is specifically in promoting CS in socioeconomic under-represented groups. This is where I volunteer but I know there are a few other organizations you can volunteer at as well, their names escape me at the moment but you can attend the CS NYC meetup to learn more (http://www.meetup.com/CSNYC-Education-Meetup/ http://www.meetup.com/CSNYC-Education-Meetup/). If you don't live in the the NYC area not sure of what other resources are out there but I'm sure at least SF has similar initiatives, and probably a few other large metropolitan areas.
- vukmir 13y ago
  > I'm always astonished by the backlash these topics gets in this community. Are we all really so scared by the idea of trying to make coding more accessible to people of all ages and backgrounds? Can't speak for the whole community, but here's my opinion: The main problem with code.org is that the message they are sending is "programming is something easy that will make you rich and you should do it for patriotic reasons". I think that's the whole point of the article. I'm all for making programming accessible to people of all ages and backgrounds, but we shouldn't lie to them.
paulrademacher 13y ago
I'm not sure how anyone could question Gates, Zuckerberg, or Sandberg on their sincere and informed interest in young people studying computer science. The criticism on that page is so infantile, I can't even think of a proper response.
- david927 13y ago
  You didn't understand what he wrote, but that's understandable. The target audience is not you, or sadly, most of HN for that matter. He's clarifying an important point that Seymour Papert made, for people who know who Seymour Papert is (and who don't give a whit who Gates, Zuckerberg, and Sandberg are).
- pgeorgi 13y ago
  > their sincere and informed interest in young people studying computer science Cheap labor?
- randomdata 13y ago
  It is bothersome to me that it is (almost?) entirely backed by people that make money from other programmers, not by programming themselves, who are behind this. Where are the computer scientists who make their living by writing code in all this?
cliveowen 13y ago
"“Computer programmers are in great demand by American businesses, across the tech sector, banking, entertainment, you name it. These are some of the highest-paying jobs, but there are not enough graduates to fill these opportunities.“" Marco Rubio, Senator Florida Leaving aside the fact that he named exactly 0 jobs and just name-dropped a couple of broad sectors (I guess "job" is a difficult concept to understand by someone who never had one), did it occur to him that if those jobs are the highest-paying (and that's debatable) is because "there are not enough graduates to fill these opportunities"?
indymike 13y ago
Just remember that literacy for the masses was opposed for centuries. Being able to code is the computer equivalent of writing. Writing is 50% of literacy.
Dewie 13y ago
This piece is too easy to misinterpret when used as a direct link and not accessed through Victor's website. Knowing that it is him, I interpret the message in a wholly different way than when I first visited the site and didn't know what worrydream.com is and who it belonged to. He should have made it more fleshed out and his intent more explicit for that reason.
al2o3cr 13y ago
"This is the depth of thought that powers nationwide policy decisions." Yep, because PR blurbs for things always explain the reasoning in detail. That's the depth of thought that powers HN posts...
jowiar 13y ago
The point Victor is trying to make is that the assorted leaders are saying "Learn to program because we need people to know how to program". But the more important question is why do we need people to learn how to program. Maybe programming is the best way to achieve those ends for now, but learning programming because someone said you should learn programming falls into the same hole that much of our education system does. Instead, we need to keep an eye on the real goal, understand why we are doing what we are doing. Maybe programming, as it is now, is it. Some number of years down the line, there will be a better tool for achieving whatever your end goal is, and an individual or societal worship of programming will only blind people from finding that.
ilaksh 13y ago
I think computer programming can be a much more accessible way to learn problem solving and general thinking skills than other fields. Computers don't need to cost a lot of money these days. So one computer can provide a lab with infinite interactive experiments. Programming gives more feedback than mathematics.
patrickmay 13y ago
"It goes against the grain of modern education to teach students to program. What fun is there to making plans, acquiring discipline, organizing thoughts, devoting attention to detail, and learning to be self critical." -- Alan Perlis
litmus 13y ago
It's clear from this post and his post on Khan Acadamy, that Bret Victor is uneasy about the immediacy of the recent "Coding Activism" movement and is probably motivated to write these types of posts because some coders taking part in this movement often cite him as their inspiration. I'm sure he feels compelled to emphasize that the intention put forth in the sum of the work of people like Papert and Douglas Engelbart was not to ultimately fuel the creation of a "cooler IDE".
Grue3 13y ago
This is just embarassing. The fact that more than 200 people upvoted this even moreso.
russelluresti 13y ago
Hey, look, propaganda! First off, I love the liberal summaries/restatement of the advocates of code.org. You have in no way misinterpreted their obviously sinister underlying meanings. It's also cool that you referenced a quote from the author of Mindstorms, who himself or his work, in no obvious way, influenced the mission of code.org. Because, you know, random unrelated, and out-of-context quotes are awesome. But you should probably go ahead and just redact that whole "I do not mean to dismiss the 'treatment' studies as without value. For many children the opportunity to program a computer is a valuable experience and can foster important intellectual development." part of the text, because I think it may contradict your message here.

227 points by nickmain 13y ago

Probably best viewed in light of his main site[1] (Warning! May result in feelings of inadequacy), where he goes to great length to do exactly what he thinks these people aren't, explain complex ideas and concepts using programs, programming and the resulting visualizations. [1]: http://worrydream.com/ http://worrydream.com/

dougk16 13y ago
"Warning! May result in feelings of inadequacy" Ha ha...yea, usually I get inspired by other people's projects, but visiting worrydream.com just makes me want to quit everything.
- kbenson 13y ago
  Yeah, The first time I saw it was back in late 2011 when Up and Down the Ladder of Abstraction[1] was linked. After viewing the main site, and sharing it with some friends and co-workers, the feeling was almost unanimous. [1]: http://worrydream.com/LadderOfAbstraction/ http://worrydream.com/LadderOfAbstraction/
Jormundir 13y ago
Browsing through his site, all the demonstrations seem to be smoke and mirrors -- or at least props to portray ideas rather than actual tools to use. Just out of curiosity, has he made anything I can actually use? Or does he have any work that is particularly substantial?
- kbenson 13y ago
  or at least props to portray ideas rather than actual tools to use Exactly. He is thoroughly invested in using technology and programming to teach ideas, concepts and ways to think. Just out of curiosity, has he made anything I can actually use? Or does he have any work that is particularly substantial? His CV[1] link has interesting stuff, but you may not find something immediately useful on his site. Light table was inspired by one of his talks[2] (when I first saw light table I thought it was him following through on the idea). [1]: http://worrydream.com/cv/bret_victor_resume.pdf http://worrydream.com/cv/bret_victor_resume.pdf [2]: http://vimeo.com/36579366 http://vimeo.com/36579366 Edit: Whoops, put a link instead of your quote for the second section.

ambivalence 13y ago

You surely shared this so I can weigh in. No? Not really? Well, here's my opinion anyway. In this infographic Bret Victor claims that expecting college education to prepare you for a day job is an invalid idea. He also implies that an opinion of an MIT mathematician is inherently more trustworthy and correct than opinions of dozens of business leaders, politicians, educators, astronauts, and, oh, Stephen Hawking (“Whether you want to uncover the secrets of the universe, or you just want to pursue a career in the 21st century, basic computer programming is an essential skill to learn.“). Oh, you missed that in his infographic? It's probably because it conveniently wasn't there. Check out the full list at http://code.org/quotes http://code.org/quotes But really, is it fair to compare a long, structured statement with brief quotes that are meant to be an effective marketing tool? Before you cringe at the dirty m-word, consider what is being marketed here. Kids now learn creationism, liberal arts, and opinionated history at school. Coding is a refreshingly logical, concrete and objective field of study. It's worth getting it to the 90% of high schools that don't teach it yet, even if it ends up being trivial if-then-else turtle-make-30-steps-forward. We're at a time where it's more about simply getting the foot in the door. Then again, it's easier to fire up Illustrator and call bullshit on an initiative to bring more rational education to the curriculum. This is the depth of thought that powers elitism and the status quo. Snarky infographics that suggest that programming is worthless without tying it to specific so called Powerful Ideas are harmful. Even if they're drawn by a world-class designer and electrical engineer. Or maybe especially then.

eruditely 13y ago
No, he's just being effective. The problem with people who write a lot of meaningful things is that some of it is just useless. The website design is good and effective and a lot of people need to learn from him. If you think his idea is bad it's not going to work writing this, you have to actually fight the war.
kbenson 13y ago
But is it more rational education? I think his point is that programming as an end itself does little to help empower students. Programming as a tool to enable further exploration of higher concepts is the goal he thinks we should be pursuing, and if code.org presents programming as the goal and ignores why, then I think he's justified in his criticism. I think it's worth examining history for a parallel. If in the 1920's there was a large push towards mechanical knowledge of the populace (but not necessarily science and engineering) because an understanding of mechanical engines is increasingly essential in todays world, we need 120,000 trained mechanics every year, and the policy at Boeing is literally to hire as many talented mechanics as they can find, I think in hindsight I might also say that it sounds a bit like they are just trying to fill an economic need. Which is fine. But Bret Victor seems to care about teaching and learning, and code.org, from it's main page, seems to care little about that.

pizza 13y ago

Is it fair to equivocate the one or two sentence front-page hooks to the thinking that these people do on a regular basis? edit: intriguing that ambivalence and I posted almost the same thing simultaneously!

coolsunglasses 13y ago

Privileged rich person says other people don't need to worry about obtaining money or power. Not an article headline from The Onion. I nominally agree with him about code.org, just found the surrounding context amusing.

brandonbloom 13y ago

Disclaimer: I worked on Code.org's Blockly tutorials. I'm a fan of Bret Victor's work, but this leaves a real bad taste in my mouth. Frankly, I don't believe that Bret doesn't understand the nature of marketing. He must be aware that http://code.org/quotes http://code.org/quotes is a tool to help influence policy and garner support, rather than a statement on the proposed mechanisms of education. Code.org has lots of empirical evidence that having celebrities involved inspires kids. Having female role models encourages girls to try. Showing national politicians from both sides of the isle eases local policy progress. I'm feeling pretty good about my involvement, because I've seen a lot of comments from parents and teachers like this one: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=538314902931484&set=a.413799078716401.1073741827.309754825787494&type=1&stream_ref=10 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=538314902931484&set=... and videos like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_t3-3vPp-g&feature=c4-overview&list=UUJyEBMU1xVP2be1-AoGS1BA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_t3-3vPp-g&feature=c4-overvi... I taught Scratch in a Harlem classroom once a week in the months leading up to the Hour Of Code and struggled. Once the Angry Birds & Plants vs Zombies tutorials were ready to beta, I tried it on the class and the results were incredible. Kids that did nothing all semester were suddenly cruising through levels and jumping up and down with excitement. When they went back to Scratch, they suddenly were making dramatically more progress and being creative. Should also mention, that we've got tons of unplugged activities and lots of other educational materials too. Even more on the way: http://code.org/educate/curriculum http://code.org/educate/curriculum I've lost a lot of respect for Bret Victor just now because he's belittling the work of people who genuinely care and who would love to see his ideas incorporated. There's a much bigger battle to be fought before we can even consider what he's proposing, but he seems willing to work against incremental progress because it's not revolutionary in quite the way he likes. We've got many types of learning materials at http://code.org/learn http://code.org/learn from all sorts of providers. My contract with Code.org is over, but if Bret wants to show us how its done, I'm sure the team is willing to share our megaphone.

phillmv 13y ago
He's belittling the political stance of code.org as represented by its marketing. He's not saying "don't teach kids how to program", he's saying "we're teaching kids how to program for the wrong reasons". The implication is, if you're teaching it for the wrong reasons, we're not doing the best we could for the kids. That's a perfectly valid thing to say, independently of the good intentions and sincere efforts of all the people involved.

electrograv 13y ago

> This is the depth of thought that powers nationwide policy decisions. But hey, congratulations to musician and entertainer will.i.am for at least having an educational philosophy that’s not completely unreasonable or horrifying. Quite frankly I'm shocked and confused by some of the negativity I've seen expressed (including those from the HN community) towards code.org, and the idea of programming as a basic literacy in general. It seems like these people will do almost anything to find something about this idea to pick on, ridicule, discredit, and otherwise attack. Seriously, last time this came up on HN the majority of the discussion was about how horrible it is that this movement uses the phrase "learn to code" rather than "learn to program". Now it's ad hominem attacks against musicians/artists advocating literacy and education -- and what do those attacks say? "Congratulations [...] for having an educational philosophy that's not completely unreasonable and horrifying." What a disgusting backhanded "compliment". Is there something about being a musician or artist that disallows one from having a valid intellectual opinion taken for its own sake, without being patronized? "Aww isn't that cute! A musician/artist having an intellectual idea that isn't completely terrible -- like a quaint little animal trying to imitate us true intellectuals up here in our high tower of superiority." I exaggerate, but this is basically the elitist mentality I perceive behind the actual quote. To me, this comes off as a desperate attempt to defame this movement because it threatens to demote the status of basic technology roles from "elite magic" to "basic literacy" -- and to some people, apparently that's not an amazing social good, but a terrifying prospect of power loss. Am I way off base here in perceiving this? To address the main point: So what if some person never intended to claim that learning to program makes you smarter. Coding is becoming more popular, more socially acceptable, and viewed more positively not only as a career choice but as a basic literacy that will be extremely important in the future (which is true). That's a good thing.

hackaflocka 13y ago
It's the same crowd that wants Linux server administration to be obtuse (they want to preserve their power).
dkuntz2 13y ago
I personally think that the whole "learn to code" meme is a little silly, but I also think that everyone should be exposed to programming at least once. I think that things like code.org are pretty cool, but the tone most of those projects use is a little off putting to me. They all just sound like "you must learn to code or you're a dinosaur". I don't think that's true, but I also don't think people should be as averse to programming as they are. Or computers for that matter. What's more important in my mind is gleaning a little bit about how computers work. Nothing overly complicated like how a processor or memory work, but that every program is basically just a set of logic routines. The easiest way to do that is probably by teaching a little programming (or logical thinking).

eschaton 13y ago

I'll come right out and say it: learning to program will teach you to think better. It gives you another tool with which to interpret and analyze the world, and if applied well that actually can result in better thought.

dkuntz2 13y ago
I think you should amend that from "will" to "could". You could have a terrible teaching, you might not have the will to learn, and you might not learn.
- elwell 13y ago
  GP said "learning to program", which implies that the person learns.
  - kbenson 13y ago
    I think the point is that learning to program is not necessarily equivalent to learning to think better. They may learn to program, and not learn to think better. Which is what this whole thing is about. Should we be telling people "you need to learn to code" to possibly fuel an economic hole, or should we be telling them "We want to teach you a valuable way to think and reason by using programming" which may address future economic and social needs?
    - pbhjpbhj 13y ago
      "Think better" is a pretty nebulous term but I'm not sure you can learn any new field - especially not one concerning a new manner of problem solving - and not have learnt to "think better".
      - dkuntz2 13y ago
        There are lots of CS students who haven't learnt to "think better". They can type out symbols, and know what those symbols mean individually, but they can't combine them in meaningful ways without lots of prompting.

hackaflocka 13y ago

Sheryl Sandberg needs more free female interns!!! But hey, at least she's always willing to go to bat for Larry Summers.

hackaflocka 13y ago

I find a couple of Bret Victor's talk-videos inspiring (mostly due to glimpses of technology that seemingly aren't widely accessible yet). But I cannot for the life of me figure out what he keeps complaining about.

gavinpc 13y ago
Sooner or later, even Bret Victor is wrong on the internet.

Smerity 13y ago

I quite like Bret Victor and points he has made previously, but this seems entirely aimed at inspiring a flamewar. I'd love to have a discussion around this, but I don't feel that will happen due to the way the message was portrayed. On that page, he literally takes a paragraph of text from each of the speakers and outputs a single sentence, extreme in interpretation. Code.org isn't just aiming at one person, so they represent multiple points of view. Parents want to know their children will be financially stable, politicians who can influence this at a higher level want to be able to say it will help the nation, and Bill Gates would likely be able to point you to literature showing that introduction to computing concepts at a young age would help understanding of certain topics. Surprise: none of these points can be properly conveyed in one paragraph. I helped make an online learning tool used by thousands of students[1]. I'm tutoring at a computer science summer camp for high school students right now[2] (and have done so for six years). From all this, I've seen the impact that computer science and programming can have on students when correctly introduced. It is truly amazing. It is fundamentally changing. Even if this isn't applicable for all students, there is still a long and hard push to have this adopted more heavily in education. That is Code.org's fight. [1]: https://groklearning.com/ https://groklearning.com/ [2]: http://ncss.edu.au/summer_school/index.html http://ncss.edu.au/summer_school/index.html

elwell 13y ago

Wow, this argument is pretty much the opposite of what I would expect from Bret Victor. 1. It doesn't make sense to use the Papert quote as an assumption of truth. (At least add a commentary to why you agree with Papert (since Papert doesn't explain his reasoning in the given excerpt)) 2. I thought that almost every programmer thinks that learning to program has improved their ability to think about problems; especially, I imagined Bret would.

david927 13y ago
Read it again and really spend time thinking about it. You'll see it actually fits perfectly with what he's always believed, and I couldn't agree more. Here it is again: Programming can serve as a medium in which powerful ideas can be brought within reach. But the focus, of course, must be on the powerful ideas, not the programming itself.

wyager 13y ago

Programming literacy today is like writing literacy 500 years ago. You don't need it for every job. You definitely don't need to be an expert at it for most jobs. It's just nice when a lot of people can do it moderately well.

xname 13y ago

Come on. Do you guys have any scientific evidence to support this kind of claim, i.e. learn to code improves your thinking ability in general? Don't treat your conventional assumption as a fact, this is a sign of weakness in your thinking. Even if the claim is true, how does it compare to other subjects? Say, accounting, does learning accounting also improves thinking ability in general? Does accounting also provide thinking tools can be transferred to general problem solving strategies? How much advantage does coding have? If there is such advantage, does it worth for students from accounting to learn to code? You see, this is not a simple issue.

Crito 13y ago
Programmers think that learning to code makes you a more rounded person. Painters think that learning to paint makes you a more rounded person. Carpenters think that learning carpentry makes you a more rounded person. If this were one hundred years ago, we'd all be bleating on about how many cars are suddenly popping up, and how all of our children need to become car mechanics (to become rich? to achieve enlightened? to secure our nation's position in emerging world of automation? you decide!). [Disclaimer: I am a cynical and/or dissatisfied programmer]
- kbenson 13y ago
  [Disclaimer: I am a cynical and/or dissatisfied programmer] As someone whose thought process seems to have gone in a very similar place here[1], I'm interesting why, if you are up for sharing? [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7045317 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7045317
  - Crito 13y ago
    Well, I'm dissatisfied for a number of reasons, some that I am still working on figuring out, but the gist of it seems to be that I chose this career path because I knew I was good at it, knew I could get through school as a CS major, and knew I could get a job in it. Pretty much every reason besides "I thought I would enjoy doing it". Seeing other people push for people to enter the industry for the money and/or jobs, instead of satisfying a passion for the work, has me slightly... annoyed. Annoyed is a good word for it. (I don't want anybody to worry about me; I am currently working on re-adjusting my work/life balance to rein in on this dissatisfaction.) As for cynical... I don't buy into a lot of the more "mystic" ideas of coding that many programmers seem to have. Sure, there is a lot of insight to be had when you study computer science. For example, learning about computability and the Church–Turing–Deutsch principle literally changed my outlook on life; I would not be the same person that I am today if I had not studied computer science... ...but I do not think that computer science is in any way special in this regard. My non-CS peers in university grew in their own personal ways as well. They didn't miss out on anything that I had any more than I missed out on things that they had. That I think, is what many programmers don't understand. They lack exposure to other perspectives, and therefore mistake their own path through life as the obviously correct or superior path.

elwell 13y ago

"View Source" shows imaged text duplicated in display:none block; surely for SEO (I don't see how it would be for accessibility; might be wrong). I was under the impression this SEO tactic is either ignored by search engines or penalized...

arbus 13y ago
You would generally want to put that as the title or alt text of the image for it to get indexed correctly without any penalty

knappador 13y ago

I programmed in basic on an old IBM dual-floppy thingamajig in like 1999 or something. We actually didn't program it turns out. I dropped some highschool computer class that turned out to be typing or something. I'm not expecting Chris Bosh to show up in my mailing lists, but of all fights in the universe to pick, taking the time to fling dook at a vast improvement on what I had in middle school? This individual has better things to do. Let's bring up the whole ineffable thing again. It's like a finger pointing at the moon. The finger can only be a pointer. Whatever truth that is in the moon of programming or thinking in general can't be encapsulated in a pill and injected into the liver. A really big pointer directs a lot of attention in the general direction of the moon. Perhaps some of the tech moguls on the list are being realistic about the payoff unless you schlogg hardcore through a product development and your product goes to the moon. Give me a break.

phil 13y ago

This is so strange to see, especially since code.org's tutorials might be the closest thing we've got to a widely used implementation of (some of) Mr. Victor's ideas.

amjaeger 13y ago

This is just odd. I haven't seen any of his other stuff and when I read this I thought he was against teaching kids how to program. From comments in this thread I see why the post is critiquing the reasoning and motives for teaching kids to program. I think that overall I think that his post hurts the movement to teach programming, and doesn't really help to clarify or change the reasons for why programming should be taught in school. Additionally the movement to teach programming before college is making headway (remember whats happening in Chicago?), which is a good thing, and it shouldn't be demonized just because one thinks the motive is bad. Try to influence it positively instead of sending it backwards. Also addressing the "programming isn't for everyone" argument I had to suffer through all the common general studies classes so the argument that programming isn't for everyone is bs, because English and History aren't for me, but I still had to learn it.

kbenson 13y ago
Here's something to think about: Should we teach accounting in high school, or math and economics? What is "coding", or "programming"? Maybe in the context you mentioned, it's computer science. Maybe it's learning how to put together a python script to do some stuff. When I was getting my degree in CS, there was quite a bit of grousing from the students about how we were being taught very little about how to actually program. You know what? I doubt that was detrimental to too many people.

Jormundir 13y ago

This whole issue of adding programming / computer science to the curriculum is overstepping and even outright ignoring the problems with our education system. If huge numbers of students graduate from high school without being able to do algebra, what do you think will come of these schools trying to teach kids to program? Imo, this is just the wrong issue to be focusing on. Though it does make for plenty of good PR for the people and companies involved.

lwan 13y ago
So you're saying it's wrong for an independent organization to focus its efforts on a particular topic? This is a completely invalid argument. Should you be working your day job while there's still hunger in the first world?
- vezzy-fnord 13y ago
  Yes, but your analogy is flawed. This is more akin to dumping extra cargo on an overloaded donkey because of its supposed utility. When education rankings are already so poor, adding another layer to the compulsory curriculum complicates the mess even further. What's more is that all of the school districts that are rushing to implement this first (like Chicago) all struggle with low results and inefficient, highly bureaucratic teaching. Something tells me that adding coding (while erroneously calling it "computer science" to make it sound grandiose) will only lead to further mediocrity, deterioration and a lot of kids coming out with false and butchered ideas of what programming entails. It's not that teaching programming is bad, so much as trusting that the compulsory school system will get it right is laughable and a recipe for disaster. This has the potential to go very wrong, or even be ultimately useless if it's just entry-level procedural constructs being repeated ad nauseam. The camp here appears to be divided between people who highly support it at all costs and people who criticize all aspects. I'm more leaning to the latter camp, quite frankly, but one thing we really should all be focusing on is what the hell will they be actually teaching. I have yet to see a conclusive answer.

auggierose 13y ago

Love the 1984ification of Sheryl Sandberg.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

carls 13y ago

The frustration and resentment articulated through the comments here towards Bret Victor's post seems to stem from one of two sources: (a) Bret Victor claiming that code.org is implicitly, via quotes from high-profile figures, supporting a misguided view of computer science education that is overly simplistic and suboptimal towards providing the deeper, more nuanced value that programming can teach. (b) Bret Victor himself being simplistic and uncharitable in mocking the quotes by these high-profile figures. I think Bret is correct to point out (a), but the method that he chose to do so lended itself to an acrimonious response by many people who have good intentions, leading to responses towards (b). I myself was initially annoyed by the tone of his post. But after some thought and reflection, I found myself agreeing with the sentiment expressed by this post. I do think that there is a lot more nuance that could have been communicated when it comes to the value of learning programming. The real debate here, I think, is whether it's reasonable to expect a high-profile figure to comment with such sophistication and nuance, especially within the constraints of a short blurb (which is what I would presume is what their PR person and code.org agreed upon). Is it justified to expect such a degree of nuance from high-status figures and organizations, given the context that computer science education is currently in?

efuquen 13y ago

I'm always astonished by the backlash these topics gets in this community. Are we all really so scared by the idea of trying to make coding more accessible to people of all ages and backgrounds? Is there some irreparable harm being done to the community and the profession? Even if you think this is another dotcom craze, which I would debate, it looks like we all survived that quite well if we've come back full circle. I would ask you, how many of you have actually tried to teach kids how to code? How many of you have the experience to back up your assertion that it's simply "too hard" and only a select few should have the privilege? I would imagine a handful and I would be surprised to hear anyone who has had that experience tell me it's been a negative one (if it was I would sincerely love to hear it and find out what issues you had). For the past six months I've been teaching kids, at the high school level, with little to no background in programming and all of whom Engilsh isn't even their first language (it's an internationally diverse school), web development skills (js/html/css). What I've found, which is pretty much what I expected, was a varying degree of proficiency, some kids have gotten it really quickly and some have needed a lot more help. But overall I've been amazed at their progress and am totally convinced that this is something that needs to happen in more schools at a wider scale. There are real problems in trying to tackle this problem. I've met actual teachers that have been involved in trying to teach CS curriculum and there is definitely a lack of professional training among them. What they could really use is the tech communities help and support, not their derision and dismissal, it's so easy to view this from a cynical perspective instead of trying to actually get something done. If any of you are actually interested in trying to teach and see for yourselves whether this is worthwhile and you live in the NYC area take a look at ScriptEd (http://scripted.org/ http://scripted.org/). Their focus is specifically in promoting CS in socioeconomic under-represented groups. This is where I volunteer but I know there are a few other organizations you can volunteer at as well, their names escape me at the moment but you can attend the CS NYC meetup to learn more (http://www.meetup.com/CSNYC-Education-Meetup/ http://www.meetup.com/CSNYC-Education-Meetup/). If you don't live in the the NYC area not sure of what other resources are out there but I'm sure at least SF has similar initiatives, and probably a few other large metropolitan areas.

vukmir 13y ago
> I'm always astonished by the backlash these topics gets in this community. Are we all really so scared by the idea of trying to make coding more accessible to people of all ages and backgrounds? Can't speak for the whole community, but here's my opinion: The main problem with code.org is that the message they are sending is "programming is something easy that will make you rich and you should do it for patriotic reasons". I think that's the whole point of the article. I'm all for making programming accessible to people of all ages and backgrounds, but we shouldn't lie to them.

paulrademacher 13y ago

I'm not sure how anyone could question Gates, Zuckerberg, or Sandberg on their sincere and informed interest in young people studying computer science. The criticism on that page is so infantile, I can't even think of a proper response.

david927 13y ago
You didn't understand what he wrote, but that's understandable. The target audience is not you, or sadly, most of HN for that matter. He's clarifying an important point that Seymour Papert made, for people who know who Seymour Papert is (and who don't give a whit who Gates, Zuckerberg, and Sandberg are).
pgeorgi 13y ago
> their sincere and informed interest in young people studying computer science Cheap labor?
randomdata 13y ago
It is bothersome to me that it is (almost?) entirely backed by people that make money from other programmers, not by programming themselves, who are behind this. Where are the computer scientists who make their living by writing code in all this?

cliveowen 13y ago

"“Computer programmers are in great demand by American businesses, across the tech sector, banking, entertainment, you name it. These are some of the highest-paying jobs, but there are not enough graduates to fill these opportunities.“" Marco Rubio, Senator Florida Leaving aside the fact that he named exactly 0 jobs and just name-dropped a couple of broad sectors (I guess "job" is a difficult concept to understand by someone who never had one), did it occur to him that if those jobs are the highest-paying (and that's debatable) is because "there are not enough graduates to fill these opportunities"?

indymike 13y ago

Just remember that literacy for the masses was opposed for centuries. Being able to code is the computer equivalent of writing. Writing is 50% of literacy.

Dewie 13y ago

This piece is too easy to misinterpret when used as a direct link and not accessed through Victor's website. Knowing that it is him, I interpret the message in a wholly different way than when I first visited the site and didn't know what worrydream.com is and who it belonged to. He should have made it more fleshed out and his intent more explicit for that reason.

al2o3cr 13y ago

"This is the depth of thought that powers nationwide policy decisions." Yep, because PR blurbs for things always explain the reasoning in detail. That's the depth of thought that powers HN posts...

jowiar 13y ago

The point Victor is trying to make is that the assorted leaders are saying "Learn to program because we need people to know how to program". But the more important question is why do we need people to learn how to program. Maybe programming is the best way to achieve those ends for now, but learning programming because someone said you should learn programming falls into the same hole that much of our education system does. Instead, we need to keep an eye on the real goal, understand why we are doing what we are doing. Maybe programming, as it is now, is it. Some number of years down the line, there will be a better tool for achieving whatever your end goal is, and an individual or societal worship of programming will only blind people from finding that.

ilaksh 13y ago

I think computer programming can be a much more accessible way to learn problem solving and general thinking skills than other fields. Computers don't need to cost a lot of money these days. So one computer can provide a lab with infinite interactive experiments. Programming gives more feedback than mathematics.

patrickmay 13y ago

"It goes against the grain of modern education to teach students to program. What fun is there to making plans, acquiring discipline, organizing thoughts, devoting attention to detail, and learning to be self critical." -- Alan Perlis

litmus 13y ago

It's clear from this post and his post on Khan Acadamy, that Bret Victor is uneasy about the immediacy of the recent "Coding Activism" movement and is probably motivated to write these types of posts because some coders taking part in this movement often cite him as their inspiration. I'm sure he feels compelled to emphasize that the intention put forth in the sum of the work of people like Papert and Douglas Engelbart was not to ultimately fuel the creation of a "cooler IDE".

Grue3 13y ago

This is just embarassing. The fact that more than 200 people upvoted this even moreso.

russelluresti 13y ago

Hey, look, propaganda! First off, I love the liberal summaries/restatement of the advocates of code.org. You have in no way misinterpreted their obviously sinister underlying meanings. It's also cool that you referenced a quote from the author of Mindstorms, who himself or his work, in no obvious way, influenced the mission of code.org. Because, you know, random unrelated, and out-of-context quotes are awesome. But you should probably go ahead and just redact that whole "I do not mean to dismiss the 'treatment' studies as without value. For many children the opportunity to program a computer is a valuable experience and can foster important intellectual development." part of the text, because I think it may contradict your message here.