9 ms·

Sexism and Tech and Love

82 points by zck 13y ago

ashwinaj 13y ago
It's a shame that people in tech are almost always seen as socially awkward. There are so many of us out there who are charming, funny and can converse in a large variety of topics at the flip of a switch. Unfortunately in today's world a book is judged only by it's cover.
- angersock 13y ago
  Sadly, none of that really matters all the time, right, especially on a short time scale. The initial stages of attraction seem to have more to do with aesthetics, physiology, and proximity than with wit alone.
  - sp332 13y ago
    I just found this in the latest El Goonish Shive webcomic update http://i.imgur.com/tkZsaNd.png http://i.imgur.com/tkZsaNd.png This character has been summing up my views on dating pretty well lately.
    - angersock 13y ago
      As heuristics go, this one has stood the test of time. Then again, one could certainly argue that it assumes some correlates that are no longer true. That said, if you're getting life advice from webcomics (or even just being reminded of your own life), perhaps it is time to put serious effort into getting out more. Especially if you read Something Positive. :)
      - sp332 13y ago
        Haha, I hardly take life advice from anybody, much less webcomics :) I have no idea what to do when I "go out" but I've been working on entertaining larger circles of friends. It's easier for me to treat people like individuals instead of generic strangers.
        angersock 13y ago
        :)
      - dspeyer 13y ago
        On the other hand, sometimes a webcomic character says something I've been thinking better than I could. Not Something Positive :)
  - ashwinaj 13y ago
    For sure, attraction matters. The point I was trying to make was the stereotyping of tech workers as socially awkward nerds, even though that isn't true for all. Given two males with the same physical attributes, one being in tech and other say sales/marketing or whatever, which one is the girl more likely to go for? That's my point.
angersock 13y ago
"I don’t mind taking on a difficult task, I just minded having to do it alone and unseen." Better to have gotten out of tech, then. In a culture as dominated by MVP and ship-it-now as we seem to have become, there is not going to be much celebration of craftmanship nor craftsman. Demand for, yes. Appreciation, no. ~ EDIT: "Many of them are single, many of them work 70 hour weeks for years and survive with minimal love and compassion and kindness. They are also unseen. There are not many people, and especially very few women, who can truly appreciate their technical accomplishments." ...which introduces a very unfortunate set of circumstances where women in tech aren't interested in guys in tech, because the guys in tech aren't well-socialized or attractive. Contrast this with, say, civil or chemical engineers: a good friend of mine regularly goes to meetings of the American Society of Chemical Engineers (or something like that?) and the demographics are even and sometimes you even meet nice people and go out. Very different from my experience in the dev world.
- rayiner 13y ago
  Its really depressing when you're talking about how good guys in chemical engineering have it... I'm a little wary of this line of reasoning, because I don't like to imply that women in tech should be viewed as romantic objects. I'd certainly never date a coworker. So let me phrase it this way. I met my wife in law school and I love the fact that she and I can talk shop and understand what the other does for a living, especially because we're both quite passionate about our careers. At the same time, I think woman lawyers are less likely to be viewed as romantic prospects by their coworkers, precisely because they're not a novelty. Its a dynamic I like better than the one I experienced in software.
- GrinningFool 13y ago
  Better to have gotten out of tech, then. Alternatively, maybe the rest of us who accept this as the norm should do a little introspection of our own.
eplanit 13y ago
"For instance, once I was accused of being emotionally attached to my code (in front of a client, might I add) – an accusation I didn’t believe anyone would levy at a man" In over 25 years of being in the software world (and a male), I have accused several other males, and have been accused (esp. in the first half of this career), of being emotionally attached to code. This happens in any and all fields of creative construction. Not all reference to emotion is a "code" for an antagonistic remark against females. I sense an ego issue here. The author repeats how she wants males to see her as a teacher. I guess she feels that a purpose of lead role on a project is one of educator. I think that's a misconception of that role.
- tehwalrus 13y ago
  She says, later in the article, that this may not have been a sexist remark, but at the time it was hard to see that. I think that's someone who's quite good at introspection, in fact, since she anticipated your comment, or the first part of it. On the second half, I've never been managed by someone who I wasn't supposed to learn something from - have you, really?
  - geoka9 13y ago
    Sure, you can learn something from anybody, but often the managers don't have the time to do actual development and dive into specifics, so they end up being taught more than they teach. A manager is essentially an organizer and decision maker.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    >On the second half, I've never been managed by someone who I wasn't supposed to learn something from - have you, really? Are you kidding me? One of the more basic roles in tech/IT is that of the idiotic, clueless Project Manager (which 90%+ of the time is a male btw). That's how the Dilbert guy made his millions...
    - tehwalrus 13y ago
      I've never actually come across that person - it is a caricature. If you have, really, then that's cool, I was asking for your experience!
anovikov 13y ago
Sexism sucks, and stupid. I am really surprised to read things like that about U.S. which was supposed to be an even society. In a place normally perceived to be sexist, Belarus, girl coders are OK and i never heard about them being joked at or harassed for being girls (while in many other professions this is true, it's hard to imagine a female Belarusian chemical engineer). Maybe because salaries of coders there are so much higher than of almost everybody else, guys don't feel so confident about themselves with them to harass.
booop 13y ago
"I felt like there were a thousand challenges I had to face alone, that no one else could see. I was usually the only woman where I worked, and I felt so isolated. More than anything else, what I found myself really wanting was for someone to say “I see how difficult it is, and you’re doing a great job. Just keep going.” Sorry, but it looks like the poster would be unhappy in a number of professions, not just tech. As a manager you're happy when team members come to you to talk about results, not like "I want you to know how difficult and complex this is. It's not done yet, but I'm breaking my balls and I want you to notice how difficult I'm finding it".
- GrinningFool 13y ago
  It seems to me you're confusing words of encouragement and empathy with an attitude of acceptance at lack of results. I've had management who gives encouragement exactly as the author describes, and it does help with my own state of mind. It does not make me think I need to try less hard (if anything, the opposite), nor does it give me the impression that they think it's OK I haven't produced results yet - only that they know I'm working on it, and appreciate the effort I'm putting into it. And that my manager is approachable, which is critically important. In my own role in managing others, I find a bit of empathy goes a lot further than silence when someone isn't . (And that makes it sound more cold than it is - it's not a conscious choice of 'apply empathy, encourage employee, get results', but rather 'hey, it sucks to be in that spot. employee should know that I understand that - even though I still expect results.') edit: mismatch paren
- jacalata 13y ago
  Sorry, but I think you misread that. She isn't saying that about her work. She's saying that about the challenge of being the only woman around, and not only of putting up with sexism but in this case the challenge of worrying about sexism. She didn't say that her manager should be the one she can talk to. In fact, this is a pretty textbook case of why it's helpful to have groups for women in programming, so you can reality check each other with things like 'nah, that guy is actually a giant asshole to everyone, not just you/women'.
tehwalrus 13y ago
I think this is a very honest account on a difficult topic. Thank you for writing it.
deleted 13y ago
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voidr 13y ago
> For instance, once I was accused of being emotionally attached to my code (in front of a client, might I add) – an accusation I didn’t believe anyone would levy at a man. I have used harsher words towards males, the author just can't take a negative criticism and is using her gender as an excuse instead of facing the facts. > I don’t mind taking on a difficult task, I just minded having to do it alone and unseen. If she has all the skills and was unfairly criticised then why can't she get stuff alone? How the heck does she want to educate others in this case?
- angersock 13y ago
  In the following paragraph she dissects her reaction and tries to reason about it--seems to come to the conclusion that she was being emotional, which isn't an unreasonable response in that situation. I have used harsher words towards males Wow, you must be a riot to work with.
  - voidr 13y ago
    > In the following paragraph she dissects her reaction and tries to reason about it--seems to come to the conclusion that she was being emotional, which isn't an unreasonable response in that situation. And follows up with: > I’ve struggled with this for over a decade now, coming to terms with the humanity of those I believe oppress me. And the title is: "Sexism and Tech and Love" > Wow, you must be a riot to work with. I'm not a diplomat, nor a politician, nor a kindergarden teacher, I'm a programmer, I don't get paid to talk nice to people, I get paid to get stuff done to best of my abilities, and forgive me if I dare use harsh words towards people who deserve it.
    - overgryphon 13y ago
      Woah there, software development is a very collaborative field. You can be the best programmer on the team, but if you go around putting others down and name calling you are going to sabotage your product. There are ways to criticize people constructively, and sometimes that requires being nice to others.
dspeyer 13y ago
I think this article would be improved by removing the gender-specific parts. All these things happen all too often in any gender configuration and are real problems. Sexism or its spectre is a distraction.
- pyrocat 13y ago
  It's not a distraction, it's a real issue in our industry, and one that isn't going away by plugging our ears when people try and talk about it. Yes, these things can happen to any gender configuration but it predominantly happens to females.
  - deleted 13y ago
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overgryphon 13y ago
None of the problems she describes have to do with sexism. She felt isolated, alone, unseen, unappreciated, and unable to teach others. These feelings have less to do with being a woman in tech, and more to do with her own social habits and communication skills. If she felt alone and isolated, why didn't she socialize with her teammates more? Organize some social events to bring everyone together? If she felt so isolated, what was she doing to address that? Was she isolating herself? Becoming an effective manager isn't easy or automatic. For someone to learn from you, you need to first develop mutual trust and respect, and that can take time. I certainly have worked for people I wasn't willing to learn from, and that had nothing to do with their gender. I didn't respect them or trust them as a mentor. It sounds like she resented her struggle to be a lead, and blamed it on sexism rather than work on communication skills to learn how to be an effective mentor. The only sexism here seems to be her viewpoint of the men around her as unloved, unseen, and needy for female attention. If she treated her coworkers that way, or felt the need to distance herself because of this perspective, that might explain why she felt isolated. Sometimes when we're insecure about something, it makes us more brittle and sensitive. This can make it difficult to be comfortable around others.
- pyrocat 13y ago
  Yes let's blame the victim.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    Maybe we should first examine if there is a victim there in the first place? Instead of, you know, taking their word for granted (something not even their own lawyer would do), and spouting silly unwaranted "rape" metaphors against anyone arguing?
    - pyrocat 13y ago
      This isn't a legal case. When articles are posted by men, people normally take their word for granted. But you're right, the analogy was probably a bit much.
moron4hire 13y ago
I'm reading responses here and I see a common thread of, "I've said much worse things to other men." You think that excuses you? What makes you think that would ever be acceptable behavior? Why should anyone--regardless of sex--in any situation--regardless of private or corporate or what have you--be treated with anything but the utmost respect?
- heurist 13y ago
  It's not such a bad thing to say... in front of a client, sure, but in private it can be valid criticism.
  - moron4hire 13y ago
    The entire point of being polite to people is to try to think about how they would feel given your actions and to not try to make them feel unpleasant. You don't just run off at the mouth, oblivious to the impact your words might have on people. So, given that we all know we live in a society that treats women as "overly emotional", how could asking a woman if she was emotionally attached to her code not be inconsiderate? Still, I cannot imagine any situation in which "were you emotionally attached to your code" is not a passive aggressive statement. Why not avoid accusations entirely? Why not say something like, "what are your motivations for not rewriting this code?" Let them tell you, "because I spent a lot of time on it." That would tell you exactly the same thing and it wouldn't involve a passive-aggressive, accusatory tone.
- orclev 13y ago
  Respect and criticism are not mutually exclusive things. There are people I highly respect but who I disagree with and criticize quite often. The reverse is also true, I am quite often criticized and disagreed with but it isn't a personal attack and it isn't disrespectful, it's merely a reflection of differing ideas on how particular features should be implemented, or how certain processes should be done.
jheriko 13y ago
I found this quite interesting... nice to read something that isn't just 'lets help women into tech', 'machismo is terrible' or 'sexism is a big problem just for women'.
auggierose 13y ago
I can see where she is coming from, but I think that this can only be resolved when many more women work as programmers than they do now. It's just a fact that men think a lot about sex, if you are the only female person around for like 9 hours of the day, and if you are likeable and somewhat attractive, then all these men will think a lot about having sex with you (and trying to impress you as a result). It is obvious that this might have its effect on workplace interactions, and usually not in a good way.
- jayferd 13y ago
  > It's just a fact that men think a lot about sex Please stop. This attitude is offensive to both men and women.
  - alexmat 13y ago
    I am male and I do spend a lot of time thinking about sex. It also affects the way I interact with women as opposed to how I interact with men. It's just like hunger. When I'm hungry, it's hard to think about things other than food. If I'm talking to someone while hungry, and they have food, it's really hard to focus on the conversation at hand. Worse yet, I will often ask them if I can "get a piece of that".
    - webmaven 13y ago
      Sex isn't something that women 'have' and are refusing to share, it is a collaborative activity.
      - alexmat 13y ago
        Right, and I'm just looking to collaborate.
    - jayferd 13y ago
      > Please stop. This attitude is offensive to both men and women.
RyanMcGreal 13y ago
Aaaaand the predictable gaggle of defensive men in tech swoop in to dismiss and belittle the author's concerns about feeling dismissed and belittled. I long for the day when this industry acquires the maturity and self-awareness to understand just how unwelcome it makes itself for women.
- deleted 13y ago
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- fosap 13y ago
  So far I saw and feel empathy for about feeling dismissed and belittled. But the "It's because I'm a girl card" is annoying. Could somebody please consider that this can happen to everybody and it at least possible it has nothing to do with your gender?
  - RyanMcGreal 13y ago
    You should probably go back and re-read the essay more carefully.
    - fosap 13y ago
      Oh, That was not a critic on the essay, but on you. The Author seems to be quite aware that not everything is sexism, but choose a clickbait headline.
tomp 13y ago
> That’s why I was so moved to see men being willing to learn from their female teachers when I took massage. I realized this is not something about men and women, this is not something about human nature, this is something about tech. The first thought that came to my mind was, maybe it's not something about tech, it's something about her not being as good of a teacher than her massage teacher was.
api 13y ago
I don't think this is a gender thing, or at least mostly isn't. Software is really a pretty emotionally rough field in the sense that it's got this hot-dog show-off mentality, people are really blunt with their criticisms, lots of stop energy that you have to ignore, etc. Personally I've found it hard as a male just because it can be so alienating, antisocial, and generally irritating. One of the toughest things is to put a ton of work into a new product, open source code, etc. and have people just attack you for it... often cluelessly too or just for the sake of bashing something.
blackhole 13y ago
Half the comments on this page attack the following quote: "For instance, once I was accused of being emotionally attached to my code" Despite the fact that in the very next paragraph she points out that this was an irrational response provoked by her situation. The comments here are completely and utterly missing the point of this article. It is about perception, and the subtle, agonizing torture that sexism inflicts on a subconscious level that is ingrained in the tech world on such a deep level that it is extremely difficult to properly reason about. I do not have very much faith in your conclusions when you are pretending an entire paragraph of the article doesn't exist.
- mrcharles 13y ago
  Wait did you expect people to read the whole article before jumping up and saying "SEXISM ISN'T A PROBLEM!"? Oh, also be sure you read that phrase in a male's voice. Because there's no way it would ever be uttered from a woman's in this day and age.
- thrush 13y ago
  Sexism is a problem in many places, especially in tech, on many levels, degrees and for many reasons. I'd like to focus on one, which is the lack of representation of women in tech, programmers especially. Some of the best programmers I met in school were female, some of my best teachers were female, and some of the most amazing people I've met in the industry are female. I've never been at a company or place where there is only one female and I imagine this is very hard. I also think that it is the root of the problem. Rather than go into detail, I hope someone would chime in because I cannot directly relate to this problem both because I am male and my past experience. I think information from someone with a better perspective on why it is hard to be the lone female, and what prevents other females from becoming programmers. I would like this opportunity to reemphasize how important women have been to the field of computer science. My mother studied computer science and is the reason I chose to pursue it as well. One of my favorite "bad-ass" (for lack of a better term) contributors was Grace Hopper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper) who created the first compiler as well as the COBOL programming language. I hope that people respond with some of their favorite females in CS from the past or recent years.
m1117 13y ago
“I see how difficult it is, and you’re doing a great job. Just keep going.” I wish somebody was telling me this too. "For instance, once I was accused of being emotionally attached to my code (in front of a client, might I add) – an accusation I didn’t believe anyone would levy at a man." At my work we accuse each other in "This code is stupid!!!", "Don't be a dick", "That's a fd up code!!". And it's totally sexism when the author expect a different behavior just because it's a she.
- eric_the_read 13y ago
  I was at a conference once where they ran a contest that had people who'd never worked together pair-programming a solution to a problem neither of them was an expert in. After a period of time, the various pairs presented their solutions to a jury. One of the pairs started off with a member saying, "Okay, this code is kind of shit, but it's the best we could do," or words to that effect. (It was 5 or 6 years ago; I can't recall precisely what was said.) The reply from one of the jurors has stuck with me ever since. Paraphrasing, it was something like, "Don't ever say that about your own code. Remember, at some point, you will always work with someone more junior than you. If they hear you commenting like that about your own code, they're going to be much more reluctant to approach you about problems they're having with their own." It's partly about having a certain level of professionalism, but it's also about trying to create an environment where people feel comfortable asking questions about code they're unsure about, without feeling like they're going to be attacked. Even if you don't mean it that way!
  - m1117 13y ago
    totally agree on that, was trying to criticize correlation with sexism
    - moron4hire 13y ago
      Sexism isn't "man belittles woman". It's assigning traits to sex in such a way to make people feel uncomfortable. A man telling another man to "man up" is just as sexist, as it implies a questioning of the second man's sexuality.
mrcharles 13y ago
Wow. The response to this article is disgusting. Good job proving the problems in tech, HN.
- Tehnix 13y ago
  Care to enlighten on how it's disguting?
  - mrcharles 13y ago
    There's a complete lack of any attempt to empathize, just a quick rush to (anecdotally) show how everything is okay, it's just this one thing, she's overreacting, etc. Which is exactly the kind of thing that causes the most problems for women, because the result of these actions is an effective sweeping under the rug of the very real problems facing women in tech. I mean, most of the comments very obviously didn't even read the whole article before rushing in a froth to make a post attacking a single isolated statement.
    - camelite 13y ago
      I had just decided against posting the following flame-bait comment until I read this... Now I can't resist: "The problem with conspiracy theorists is that any argument questioning the existence of their pet conspiracy can and will be used by them as evidence that the conspiracy exists. They are literally impossible to reason with." Sorry...
humanrebar 13y ago
The comparison between massage and tech is not apt because, in very broad terms, tech is mostly about knowledge and problem solving. Massage is mostly about skill. Both can be honorable careers if practiced honorably, but it shouldn't be surprising that the habits and inclinations of the people in each career differ. A more interesting comparison would be with other types of engineers or maybe doctors. EDIT: To elaborate, FTA: > I can see that men are sometimes so desperate to be appreciated by me, they try to impress me and this blocks them from learning from me because they will find my criticism very painful. ...or they realize that employee evaluation is a hard problem, and because they are knowledge workers they decided to focus, at least partly, on being correct.
overgard 13y ago
This isn't sexism, this is just a culture she doesn't like. That's fair, maybe tech culture could be improved, but this idea that it's because of sexism seems like a huge stretch, and the fact that it has to change because she doesn't fit in seems extremely solipsistic on her part. Lets think like an anthropologist for a moment: tech culture evolved over time with it's own distinct style. Before you look to change it, perhaps understand it? Why it is the way it is? What are its values? Why is she so special that tech culture needs to change to suit her specific needs? Not all people are the same. I probably wouldn't fit in in the culture of fashion, for instance, but that's not their fault, and I wouldn't want the fashion industry to change on my behalf. For instance, the whole thing about how she felt upset that people didn't want to be "educated" by her. Almost every great leader I've worked under always had the same philosophy that they felt like they were constantly learning things from the people below them. We have leaders, yeah, but I think in tech the culture is a lot more collaborative -- you're in charge, but in a healthy relationship we're both going to learn things from each other. It seems like she was trying to be a mentor for people who didn't particularly want or need it. Again, why is that everyone else's fault? I have empathy for her disappointment, but that's on her.
Tehnix 13y ago
>What I wanted, deep in my heart, was for someone to say, “Yes, I see this is difficult for you – I see hearing that comment was hard for you because you are worried about the sexist implications, and it was a challenge to maintain composure in front of the client.” So she wanted us to assume she was a fragile woman, instead of a woman able to take critique (as the comment about emotional attachment to code is)? Not that I'm saying she is, but, that's how I would interpret what she just said. Personally, I think these matters could be resolved bybetter communication with coworkers. They need to speak up if they feel uncomfortable in their environment. We can't read your thoughts, and, that goes for other males aswell obviously, but, that doesn't seem to be much of an issue. As for men trying to impress women, I would very much say this isn't limited to tech. Maybe tech ppl more easily take a liking to their female coworkers, but it's entirely natural to want to impress someone you like.
lizardfiz 13y ago
Hi, I'm the author of this article, and reading these comments made me just think "wow, there is so much pain here." I assume I'll get made fun of/trolled/whatever for this, but I guess all I really wanted to say in my article was "There were some difficult things I experienced as a woman in tech - but these are not independent of the difficult things men experience. We are all in this mess together." Sexism is not men discriminating against women, it's a complicated interplay between the roles we are expected to act, and roles we want to act, and all genders suffer for it. Maybe, also, I wished someone had said "I see how hard it is," when I was a woman programmer. So, in that spirit, to all the male programmers out there "I see how hard it is for you too." <3
- selmnoo 13y ago
  Thanks. <3 Speaking as a male for a moment here: in my earlier years, the reason I would have had trouble saying something like "I see how hard it is" to a woman would have been because I was not 'man' enough to come out and say something like that. I'd have been afraid the woman might take it the wrong way, like as if I was belittling her. That's how a lot of us do feel, I bet. When I went back to school for software engineering and talked to my peers via chat late in the night, I really just found that a lot of them are broken. They have low self-esteem, they feel women aren't interested in them because they're nerdy. And so, their interactions with woman -- like walking on eggshells, trying not to embarrass themselves or get humiliated, be outed as "clumsy-with-women", they behave in a rigid way that could possibly be interpreted as being cold and mean to women. I really do think you're onto something here. If more people took the initiative in communicating feelings of care and love, things would improve.
deleted 13y ago
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82 points by zck 13y ago

It's a shame that people in tech are almost always seen as socially awkward. There are so many of us out there who are charming, funny and can converse in a large variety of topics at the flip of a switch. Unfortunately in today's world a book is judged only by it's cover.

angersock 13y ago
Sadly, none of that really matters all the time, right, especially on a short time scale. The initial stages of attraction seem to have more to do with aesthetics, physiology, and proximity than with wit alone.
- sp332 13y ago
  I just found this in the latest El Goonish Shive webcomic update http://i.imgur.com/tkZsaNd.png http://i.imgur.com/tkZsaNd.png This character has been summing up my views on dating pretty well lately.
  - angersock 13y ago
    As heuristics go, this one has stood the test of time. Then again, one could certainly argue that it assumes some correlates that are no longer true. That said, if you're getting life advice from webcomics (or even just being reminded of your own life), perhaps it is time to put serious effort into getting out more. Especially if you read Something Positive. :)
    - sp332 13y ago
      Haha, I hardly take life advice from anybody, much less webcomics :) I have no idea what to do when I "go out" but I've been working on entertaining larger circles of friends. It's easier for me to treat people like individuals instead of generic strangers.
      - angersock 13y ago
        :)
    - dspeyer 13y ago
      On the other hand, sometimes a webcomic character says something I've been thinking better than I could. Not Something Positive :)
- ashwinaj 13y ago
  For sure, attraction matters. The point I was trying to make was the stereotyping of tech workers as socially awkward nerds, even though that isn't true for all. Given two males with the same physical attributes, one being in tech and other say sales/marketing or whatever, which one is the girl more likely to go for? That's my point.

angersock 13y ago

"I don’t mind taking on a difficult task, I just minded having to do it alone and unseen." Better to have gotten out of tech, then. In a culture as dominated by MVP and ship-it-now as we seem to have become, there is not going to be much celebration of craftmanship nor craftsman. Demand for, yes. Appreciation, no. ~ EDIT: "Many of them are single, many of them work 70 hour weeks for years and survive with minimal love and compassion and kindness. They are also unseen. There are not many people, and especially very few women, who can truly appreciate their technical accomplishments." ...which introduces a very unfortunate set of circumstances where women in tech aren't interested in guys in tech, because the guys in tech aren't well-socialized or attractive. Contrast this with, say, civil or chemical engineers: a good friend of mine regularly goes to meetings of the American Society of Chemical Engineers (or something like that?) and the demographics are even and sometimes you even meet nice people and go out. Very different from my experience in the dev world.

rayiner 13y ago
Its really depressing when you're talking about how good guys in chemical engineering have it... I'm a little wary of this line of reasoning, because I don't like to imply that women in tech should be viewed as romantic objects. I'd certainly never date a coworker. So let me phrase it this way. I met my wife in law school and I love the fact that she and I can talk shop and understand what the other does for a living, especially because we're both quite passionate about our careers. At the same time, I think woman lawyers are less likely to be viewed as romantic prospects by their coworkers, precisely because they're not a novelty. Its a dynamic I like better than the one I experienced in software.
GrinningFool 13y ago
Better to have gotten out of tech, then. Alternatively, maybe the rest of us who accept this as the norm should do a little introspection of our own.

eplanit 13y ago

"For instance, once I was accused of being emotionally attached to my code (in front of a client, might I add) – an accusation I didn’t believe anyone would levy at a man" In over 25 years of being in the software world (and a male), I have accused several other males, and have been accused (esp. in the first half of this career), of being emotionally attached to code. This happens in any and all fields of creative construction. Not all reference to emotion is a "code" for an antagonistic remark against females. I sense an ego issue here. The author repeats how she wants males to see her as a teacher. I guess she feels that a purpose of lead role on a project is one of educator. I think that's a misconception of that role.

tehwalrus 13y ago
She says, later in the article, that this may not have been a sexist remark, but at the time it was hard to see that. I think that's someone who's quite good at introspection, in fact, since she anticipated your comment, or the first part of it. On the second half, I've never been managed by someone who I wasn't supposed to learn something from - have you, really?
- geoka9 13y ago
  Sure, you can learn something from anybody, but often the managers don't have the time to do actual development and dive into specifics, so they end up being taught more than they teach. A manager is essentially an organizer and decision maker.
- coldtea 13y ago
  >On the second half, I've never been managed by someone who I wasn't supposed to learn something from - have you, really? Are you kidding me? One of the more basic roles in tech/IT is that of the idiotic, clueless Project Manager (which 90%+ of the time is a male btw). That's how the Dilbert guy made his millions...
  - tehwalrus 13y ago
    I've never actually come across that person - it is a caricature. If you have, really, then that's cool, I was asking for your experience!

anovikov 13y ago

Sexism sucks, and stupid. I am really surprised to read things like that about U.S. which was supposed to be an even society. In a place normally perceived to be sexist, Belarus, girl coders are OK and i never heard about them being joked at or harassed for being girls (while in many other professions this is true, it's hard to imagine a female Belarusian chemical engineer). Maybe because salaries of coders there are so much higher than of almost everybody else, guys don't feel so confident about themselves with them to harass.

booop 13y ago

"I felt like there were a thousand challenges I had to face alone, that no one else could see. I was usually the only woman where I worked, and I felt so isolated. More than anything else, what I found myself really wanting was for someone to say “I see how difficult it is, and you’re doing a great job. Just keep going.” Sorry, but it looks like the poster would be unhappy in a number of professions, not just tech. As a manager you're happy when team members come to you to talk about results, not like "I want you to know how difficult and complex this is. It's not done yet, but I'm breaking my balls and I want you to notice how difficult I'm finding it".

GrinningFool 13y ago
It seems to me you're confusing words of encouragement and empathy with an attitude of acceptance at lack of results. I've had management who gives encouragement exactly as the author describes, and it does help with my own state of mind. It does not make me think I need to try less hard (if anything, the opposite), nor does it give me the impression that they think it's OK I haven't produced results yet - only that they know I'm working on it, and appreciate the effort I'm putting into it. And that my manager is approachable, which is critically important. In my own role in managing others, I find a bit of empathy goes a lot further than silence when someone isn't . (And that makes it sound more cold than it is - it's not a conscious choice of 'apply empathy, encourage employee, get results', but rather 'hey, it sucks to be in that spot. employee should know that I understand that - even though I still expect results.') edit: mismatch paren
jacalata 13y ago
Sorry, but I think you misread that. She isn't saying that about her work. She's saying that about the challenge of being the only woman around, and not only of putting up with sexism but in this case the challenge of worrying about sexism. She didn't say that her manager should be the one she can talk to. In fact, this is a pretty textbook case of why it's helpful to have groups for women in programming, so you can reality check each other with things like 'nah, that guy is actually a giant asshole to everyone, not just you/women'.

tehwalrus 13y ago

I think this is a very honest account on a difficult topic. Thank you for writing it.

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voidr 13y ago

> For instance, once I was accused of being emotionally attached to my code (in front of a client, might I add) – an accusation I didn’t believe anyone would levy at a man. I have used harsher words towards males, the author just can't take a negative criticism and is using her gender as an excuse instead of facing the facts. > I don’t mind taking on a difficult task, I just minded having to do it alone and unseen. If she has all the skills and was unfairly criticised then why can't she get stuff alone? How the heck does she want to educate others in this case?

angersock 13y ago
In the following paragraph she dissects her reaction and tries to reason about it--seems to come to the conclusion that she was being emotional, which isn't an unreasonable response in that situation. I have used harsher words towards males Wow, you must be a riot to work with.
- voidr 13y ago
  > In the following paragraph she dissects her reaction and tries to reason about it--seems to come to the conclusion that she was being emotional, which isn't an unreasonable response in that situation. And follows up with: > I’ve struggled with this for over a decade now, coming to terms with the humanity of those I believe oppress me. And the title is: "Sexism and Tech and Love" > Wow, you must be a riot to work with. I'm not a diplomat, nor a politician, nor a kindergarden teacher, I'm a programmer, I don't get paid to talk nice to people, I get paid to get stuff done to best of my abilities, and forgive me if I dare use harsh words towards people who deserve it.
  - overgryphon 13y ago
    Woah there, software development is a very collaborative field. You can be the best programmer on the team, but if you go around putting others down and name calling you are going to sabotage your product. There are ways to criticize people constructively, and sometimes that requires being nice to others.

dspeyer 13y ago

I think this article would be improved by removing the gender-specific parts. All these things happen all too often in any gender configuration and are real problems. Sexism or its spectre is a distraction.

pyrocat 13y ago
It's not a distraction, it's a real issue in our industry, and one that isn't going away by plugging our ears when people try and talk about it. Yes, these things can happen to any gender configuration but it predominantly happens to females.
- deleted 13y ago
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overgryphon 13y ago

None of the problems she describes have to do with sexism. She felt isolated, alone, unseen, unappreciated, and unable to teach others. These feelings have less to do with being a woman in tech, and more to do with her own social habits and communication skills. If she felt alone and isolated, why didn't she socialize with her teammates more? Organize some social events to bring everyone together? If she felt so isolated, what was she doing to address that? Was she isolating herself? Becoming an effective manager isn't easy or automatic. For someone to learn from you, you need to first develop mutual trust and respect, and that can take time. I certainly have worked for people I wasn't willing to learn from, and that had nothing to do with their gender. I didn't respect them or trust them as a mentor. It sounds like she resented her struggle to be a lead, and blamed it on sexism rather than work on communication skills to learn how to be an effective mentor. The only sexism here seems to be her viewpoint of the men around her as unloved, unseen, and needy for female attention. If she treated her coworkers that way, or felt the need to distance herself because of this perspective, that might explain why she felt isolated. Sometimes when we're insecure about something, it makes us more brittle and sensitive. This can make it difficult to be comfortable around others.

pyrocat 13y ago
Yes let's blame the victim.
- coldtea 13y ago
  Maybe we should first examine if there is a victim there in the first place? Instead of, you know, taking their word for granted (something not even their own lawyer would do), and spouting silly unwaranted "rape" metaphors against anyone arguing?
  - pyrocat 13y ago
    This isn't a legal case. When articles are posted by men, people normally take their word for granted. But you're right, the analogy was probably a bit much.

moron4hire 13y ago

I'm reading responses here and I see a common thread of, "I've said much worse things to other men." You think that excuses you? What makes you think that would ever be acceptable behavior? Why should anyone--regardless of sex--in any situation--regardless of private or corporate or what have you--be treated with anything but the utmost respect?

heurist 13y ago
It's not such a bad thing to say... in front of a client, sure, but in private it can be valid criticism.
- moron4hire 13y ago
  The entire point of being polite to people is to try to think about how they would feel given your actions and to not try to make them feel unpleasant. You don't just run off at the mouth, oblivious to the impact your words might have on people. So, given that we all know we live in a society that treats women as "overly emotional", how could asking a woman if she was emotionally attached to her code not be inconsiderate? Still, I cannot imagine any situation in which "were you emotionally attached to your code" is not a passive aggressive statement. Why not avoid accusations entirely? Why not say something like, "what are your motivations for not rewriting this code?" Let them tell you, "because I spent a lot of time on it." That would tell you exactly the same thing and it wouldn't involve a passive-aggressive, accusatory tone.
orclev 13y ago
Respect and criticism are not mutually exclusive things. There are people I highly respect but who I disagree with and criticize quite often. The reverse is also true, I am quite often criticized and disagreed with but it isn't a personal attack and it isn't disrespectful, it's merely a reflection of differing ideas on how particular features should be implemented, or how certain processes should be done.

jheriko 13y ago

I found this quite interesting... nice to read something that isn't just 'lets help women into tech', 'machismo is terrible' or 'sexism is a big problem just for women'.

auggierose 13y ago

I can see where she is coming from, but I think that this can only be resolved when many more women work as programmers than they do now. It's just a fact that men think a lot about sex, if you are the only female person around for like 9 hours of the day, and if you are likeable and somewhat attractive, then all these men will think a lot about having sex with you (and trying to impress you as a result). It is obvious that this might have its effect on workplace interactions, and usually not in a good way.

jayferd 13y ago
> It's just a fact that men think a lot about sex Please stop. This attitude is offensive to both men and women.
- alexmat 13y ago
  I am male and I do spend a lot of time thinking about sex. It also affects the way I interact with women as opposed to how I interact with men. It's just like hunger. When I'm hungry, it's hard to think about things other than food. If I'm talking to someone while hungry, and they have food, it's really hard to focus on the conversation at hand. Worse yet, I will often ask them if I can "get a piece of that".
  - webmaven 13y ago
    Sex isn't something that women 'have' and are refusing to share, it is a collaborative activity.
    - alexmat 13y ago
      Right, and I'm just looking to collaborate.
  - jayferd 13y ago
    > Please stop. This attitude is offensive to both men and women.

RyanMcGreal 13y ago

Aaaaand the predictable gaggle of defensive men in tech swoop in to dismiss and belittle the author's concerns about feeling dismissed and belittled. I long for the day when this industry acquires the maturity and self-awareness to understand just how unwelcome it makes itself for women.

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fosap 13y ago
So far I saw and feel empathy for about feeling dismissed and belittled. But the "It's because I'm a girl card" is annoying. Could somebody please consider that this can happen to everybody and it at least possible it has nothing to do with your gender?
- RyanMcGreal 13y ago
  You should probably go back and re-read the essay more carefully.
  - fosap 13y ago
    Oh, That was not a critic on the essay, but on you. The Author seems to be quite aware that not everything is sexism, but choose a clickbait headline.

tomp 13y ago

> That’s why I was so moved to see men being willing to learn from their female teachers when I took massage. I realized this is not something about men and women, this is not something about human nature, this is something about tech. The first thought that came to my mind was, maybe it's not something about tech, it's something about her not being as good of a teacher than her massage teacher was.

api 13y ago

I don't think this is a gender thing, or at least mostly isn't. Software is really a pretty emotionally rough field in the sense that it's got this hot-dog show-off mentality, people are really blunt with their criticisms, lots of stop energy that you have to ignore, etc. Personally I've found it hard as a male just because it can be so alienating, antisocial, and generally irritating. One of the toughest things is to put a ton of work into a new product, open source code, etc. and have people just attack you for it... often cluelessly too or just for the sake of bashing something.

blackhole 13y ago

Half the comments on this page attack the following quote: "For instance, once I was accused of being emotionally attached to my code" Despite the fact that in the very next paragraph she points out that this was an irrational response provoked by her situation. The comments here are completely and utterly missing the point of this article. It is about perception, and the subtle, agonizing torture that sexism inflicts on a subconscious level that is ingrained in the tech world on such a deep level that it is extremely difficult to properly reason about. I do not have very much faith in your conclusions when you are pretending an entire paragraph of the article doesn't exist.

mrcharles 13y ago
Wait did you expect people to read the whole article before jumping up and saying "SEXISM ISN'T A PROBLEM!"? Oh, also be sure you read that phrase in a male's voice. Because there's no way it would ever be uttered from a woman's in this day and age.
thrush 13y ago
Sexism is a problem in many places, especially in tech, on many levels, degrees and for many reasons. I'd like to focus on one, which is the lack of representation of women in tech, programmers especially. Some of the best programmers I met in school were female, some of my best teachers were female, and some of the most amazing people I've met in the industry are female. I've never been at a company or place where there is only one female and I imagine this is very hard. I also think that it is the root of the problem. Rather than go into detail, I hope someone would chime in because I cannot directly relate to this problem both because I am male and my past experience. I think information from someone with a better perspective on why it is hard to be the lone female, and what prevents other females from becoming programmers. I would like this opportunity to reemphasize how important women have been to the field of computer science. My mother studied computer science and is the reason I chose to pursue it as well. One of my favorite "bad-ass" (for lack of a better term) contributors was Grace Hopper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper) who created the first compiler as well as the COBOL programming language. I hope that people respond with some of their favorite females in CS from the past or recent years.

m1117 13y ago

“I see how difficult it is, and you’re doing a great job. Just keep going.” I wish somebody was telling me this too. "For instance, once I was accused of being emotionally attached to my code (in front of a client, might I add) – an accusation I didn’t believe anyone would levy at a man." At my work we accuse each other in "This code is stupid!!!", "Don't be a dick", "That's a fd up code!!". And it's totally sexism when the author expect a different behavior just because it's a she.

eric_the_read 13y ago
I was at a conference once where they ran a contest that had people who'd never worked together pair-programming a solution to a problem neither of them was an expert in. After a period of time, the various pairs presented their solutions to a jury. One of the pairs started off with a member saying, "Okay, this code is kind of shit, but it's the best we could do," or words to that effect. (It was 5 or 6 years ago; I can't recall precisely what was said.) The reply from one of the jurors has stuck with me ever since. Paraphrasing, it was something like, "Don't ever say that about your own code. Remember, at some point, you will always work with someone more junior than you. If they hear you commenting like that about your own code, they're going to be much more reluctant to approach you about problems they're having with their own." It's partly about having a certain level of professionalism, but it's also about trying to create an environment where people feel comfortable asking questions about code they're unsure about, without feeling like they're going to be attacked. Even if you don't mean it that way!
- m1117 13y ago
  totally agree on that, was trying to criticize correlation with sexism
  - moron4hire 13y ago
    Sexism isn't "man belittles woman". It's assigning traits to sex in such a way to make people feel uncomfortable. A man telling another man to "man up" is just as sexist, as it implies a questioning of the second man's sexuality.

mrcharles 13y ago

Wow. The response to this article is disgusting. Good job proving the problems in tech, HN.

Tehnix 13y ago
Care to enlighten on how it's disguting?
- mrcharles 13y ago
  There's a complete lack of any attempt to empathize, just a quick rush to (anecdotally) show how everything is okay, it's just this one thing, she's overreacting, etc. Which is exactly the kind of thing that causes the most problems for women, because the result of these actions is an effective sweeping under the rug of the very real problems facing women in tech. I mean, most of the comments very obviously didn't even read the whole article before rushing in a froth to make a post attacking a single isolated statement.
  - camelite 13y ago
    I had just decided against posting the following flame-bait comment until I read this... Now I can't resist: "The problem with conspiracy theorists is that any argument questioning the existence of their pet conspiracy can and will be used by them as evidence that the conspiracy exists. They are literally impossible to reason with." Sorry...

humanrebar 13y ago

The comparison between massage and tech is not apt because, in very broad terms, tech is mostly about knowledge and problem solving. Massage is mostly about skill. Both can be honorable careers if practiced honorably, but it shouldn't be surprising that the habits and inclinations of the people in each career differ. A more interesting comparison would be with other types of engineers or maybe doctors. EDIT: To elaborate, FTA: > I can see that men are sometimes so desperate to be appreciated by me, they try to impress me and this blocks them from learning from me because they will find my criticism very painful. ...or they realize that employee evaluation is a hard problem, and because they are knowledge workers they decided to focus, at least partly, on being correct.

overgard 13y ago

This isn't sexism, this is just a culture she doesn't like. That's fair, maybe tech culture could be improved, but this idea that it's because of sexism seems like a huge stretch, and the fact that it has to change because she doesn't fit in seems extremely solipsistic on her part. Lets think like an anthropologist for a moment: tech culture evolved over time with it's own distinct style. Before you look to change it, perhaps understand it? Why it is the way it is? What are its values? Why is she so special that tech culture needs to change to suit her specific needs? Not all people are the same. I probably wouldn't fit in in the culture of fashion, for instance, but that's not their fault, and I wouldn't want the fashion industry to change on my behalf. For instance, the whole thing about how she felt upset that people didn't want to be "educated" by her. Almost every great leader I've worked under always had the same philosophy that they felt like they were constantly learning things from the people below them. We have leaders, yeah, but I think in tech the culture is a lot more collaborative -- you're in charge, but in a healthy relationship we're both going to learn things from each other. It seems like she was trying to be a mentor for people who didn't particularly want or need it. Again, why is that everyone else's fault? I have empathy for her disappointment, but that's on her.

Tehnix 13y ago

>What I wanted, deep in my heart, was for someone to say, “Yes, I see this is difficult for you – I see hearing that comment was hard for you because you are worried about the sexist implications, and it was a challenge to maintain composure in front of the client.” So she wanted us to assume she was a fragile woman, instead of a woman able to take critique (as the comment about emotional attachment to code is)? Not that I'm saying she is, but, that's how I would interpret what she just said. Personally, I think these matters could be resolved bybetter communication with coworkers. They need to speak up if they feel uncomfortable in their environment. We can't read your thoughts, and, that goes for other males aswell obviously, but, that doesn't seem to be much of an issue. As for men trying to impress women, I would very much say this isn't limited to tech. Maybe tech ppl more easily take a liking to their female coworkers, but it's entirely natural to want to impress someone you like.

lizardfiz 13y ago

Hi, I'm the author of this article, and reading these comments made me just think "wow, there is so much pain here." I assume I'll get made fun of/trolled/whatever for this, but I guess all I really wanted to say in my article was "There were some difficult things I experienced as a woman in tech - but these are not independent of the difficult things men experience. We are all in this mess together." Sexism is not men discriminating against women, it's a complicated interplay between the roles we are expected to act, and roles we want to act, and all genders suffer for it. Maybe, also, I wished someone had said "I see how hard it is," when I was a woman programmer. So, in that spirit, to all the male programmers out there "I see how hard it is for you too." <3

selmnoo 13y ago
Thanks. <3 Speaking as a male for a moment here: in my earlier years, the reason I would have had trouble saying something like "I see how hard it is" to a woman would have been because I was not 'man' enough to come out and say something like that. I'd have been afraid the woman might take it the wrong way, like as if I was belittling her. That's how a lot of us do feel, I bet. When I went back to school for software engineering and talked to my peers via chat late in the night, I really just found that a lot of them are broken. They have low self-esteem, they feel women aren't interested in them because they're nerdy. And so, their interactions with woman -- like walking on eggshells, trying not to embarrass themselves or get humiliated, be outed as "clumsy-with-women", they behave in a rigid way that could possibly be interpreted as being cold and mean to women. I really do think you're onto something here. If more people took the initiative in communicating feelings of care and love, things would improve.

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