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NSA morale down after Edward Snowden revelations, former U.S. officials say

267 points by mxfh 13y ago

jaryd 13y ago
I wonder if this is just a case of "bad press" for them, or if the broader implications of widespread domestic spying has actually sunk in. Interesting to read this in light of the recent flurry of engineer code-of-ethics style submissions that we've seen lately.
- privong 13y ago
  Based on the article's statement that "agency employees are privately voicing frustration at what they perceive as White House ambivalence amid the pounding the agency has taken from critics", I suspect it's the "bad press" angle rather than a realization of the (negative) consequences of their actions.
- Systemic33 13y ago
  You need to consider that the analysts that are complaining here, are trained to not question the motive behind their work, or the implications. They are essentially soldiers following orders, so if they started becoming critical of the task they are doing, they wouldn't be fit to do it, and lose their job. The problem however, is that while they are trained and behave like soldiers, they do not get the gratitude that is usually given to soldiers, because regular soldiers go to combat, and risk their lives, while these stay in the basement at Fort Meade. So their only pat on the back comes from their immediate superiors, in secret.
salient 13y ago
It should've happened before Snowden's revelations, and have their morale down after everything they've been asked to do. They just seem upset about "getting caught" now. Well, cry me a river.
- deleted 13y ago
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- vidarh 13y ago
  People are very good at insulating themselves in bubbles where they convince themselves that everything they do is for the good of people. In those instances it takes public revelations before they will start taking notice. And even when it gets public you can expect that a lot of the morale issues is that some of them will feel betrayed for not getting lots of officials (and Obama) speaking up in their support for doing what many of them presumably still think is vitally important work. This is one of the reasons why transparency is so vital: People with power are scary when they operate without getting to hear what people think about what they do. We're experts at filling in the blanks with what we think we deserve to hear.
spodek 13y ago
More like "USA morale down after Edward Snowden revelations, much of U.S. population says," I'd say. That happens when you do something most people would feel shame for. A major difference between NSA employees and the rest of us is that they can easily stop what they're doing. Let's hope their pitiful loss of morale leads them to develop a conscience, respect for the law, or whatever it takes to stop doing things that lead to feeling so bad. > “They feel they’ve been hung out to dry, and they’re right.” Bullshit. They're adults who chose to do what they did and work where they work. We have emotions to guide our behavior. If they feel bad for the environment they chose to work in and the work they chose to do, maybe they should look in the mirror and ask if they ought to reconsider their choices and do something that doesn't draw shame and contempt from the rest of the world while undermining their county's interests.
- JPKab 13y ago
  I was in a Hadoop course with a person who had just left the NSA in mid-June (right when the Snowden bomb dropped). She was in complete denial about his allegations, and was outright hostile to the rest of the room for "actually believing he was telling the truth". A key quote: "Do you really think they just let people access these systems without rules? You really believe that?" (the tone was beyond condescending, implying that we were all naive and ignorant) My argument to her was that my experience dealing with intelligence agencies is that they build stuff very quickly, focusing on capabilities. Anytime systems are built like this, safeguards are an afterthought. As it turns out, we were all right, and she was all wrong. I would love to talk to her today and wipe that smug look off her face by pointing out that the "safeguards" were nothing more than policy and rules with zero enforcement mechanisms. Hence the guy who spied on his ex for years without being caught. The fact that, on a personality level, she was one of the more awful people I've been stuck sitting next to in a class, makes me question who the NSA hires. She was hired straight out of college, so I guess the culture was sucked right into her. And man does that culture suck.
  - wcummings 13y ago
    >"Do you really think they just let people access these systems without rules? You really believe that?" Saying this while discussing material leaked from the NSA is beyond ironic
PeterisP 13y ago
The article reads as if they're waiting for confirmation that they were right all along. However, USA citizens are still waiting for an admission that they were overboard and will change their ways. These viewpoints aren't reconcilable, and trying to please both is not only hypocritical but simply impossible - the president must make a decision, and set clear the expected direction for NSA; otherwise there can't be good morale if they're unclear if what they're doing is considered by the top leaders as good or evil.
- wprl 13y ago
  We, the citizens, are the "top leaders." Who cares what the administration thinks? It's time to vote out all Democrats and Republicans.
  - Svip 13y ago
    Ho ho. Only problem with that is that American political system isn't really tailored for that. But even ignoring that, a major problem is that good and clever people are not willing to run for Congress in the US, because the climate is so rotten there, that they'd rather work in the private sector (and who can blame them?). So Democrats and Republicans cannot even get decent people to run on their names. And no one is going to rally about the alternatives, because... well, who are the alternatives?
- zik 13y ago
  I imagine he'll wait until thing die down a little and then quietly give the NSA his approval without risking the public's ire.
wprl 13y ago
good
pvnick 13y ago
I feel a lot of sympathy for these people. At the very least, they honestly believe they're protecting this country and their friends/loved ones. It's not their fault the higher-ups have botched the national security apparatus and turned it into something disgusting and unamerican. Most of them were/are likely unaware of the vast majority of what the agency does, and they had trust in their government that they worked at a trustworthy institution. However, this is one major element that will lead to change. Internal rot will force an organization to adapt faster than any external pressure ever will. NSA workers, current and future, as well as decision-makers need to be forced into a position of deciding whether this surveillance is right for this country. No more sticking their head of their ass and ignoring what the NSA doeas. The revelations are out in the open and more are still coming out. This is not the time for ambivalance. It's a time for making tough choices.
- spodek 13y ago
  I can see sympathy up to when they discover their work wasn't what they thought it was, for those that were caught off-guard. After all, if their boss was willing to lie to Congress on the record, who knows what lies he and the rest of the organization was willing to spew to them? Once the revelations broke, they alone have responsibility for their actions. I can see giving them a month or two to figure out how to react and to make sure of the leaks' authenticity. At this point I don't see how to see them as anything but complicit out of willful choice. They can choose any moment to leave. Or to blow the whistle and leak more information useful to the citizenry. (Edit to nrmilstein's response: Choosing is simple. As I mentioned, I can see taking months to act.)
  - nrmilstein 13y ago
    You make leaving a job seem simple. Not everyone can just "choose any moment to leave." People have careers and families.
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gaius 13y ago
I am reminded of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY
thaumasiotes 13y ago
According to the article, they're not feeling down because they're widely hated by the populace (well, technically, it's mentioned in the last paragraph). They're sad because the president hasn't personally visited their building to give them a pep talk.
- crazy1van 13y ago
  Are they really widely hated by the populace, or are they just widely hated on small communities like HN?
  - superbaconman 13y ago
    After talking with my very conservative family in the mid-west. Yes. They are hated.
  - 001sky 13y ago
    This is more than a loaded question. HN has its own views, but they also have an information set perhaps not widely available. The better framing is that, given a(n equal) technical understanding of what NSA is doing, where would the majority stand? I don't think they would stand with the government's over-reach. The red-states don't really go for that, and the blue states don't really go for it either: it's anti-liberal in a different sense. What the NSA is really doing here is protecting the 1%, in the sense that those in power are merely seeking to stay in power at all costs. Ideology, constitution, and every other consideration be damned.
  - hrjet 13y ago
    I suppose they have already collected enough data to make the right judgement about how many people hate them.
- tbastos 13y ago
  Exactly what I was about to comment. They are not really concerned about democracy, they think they know better than the public and it's fine as long as the president supports them. Of course, that's exactly how every authoritarian government works...
deleted 13y ago
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kevrone 13y ago
Oh, ya think?
nspiegelberg 13y ago
"I have spent the best years of my life giving people the lighter pleasures, helping them have a good time, and all I get is abuse, the existence of a hunted man." - Al Capone I think NSA leaders would do well to read Dale Carnegie again and remember that even violent monsters think they are victims.
flatline 13y ago
Plummeting morale has been the norm for federal employees for the last 5+ years. I'm sure the Snowden leaks have not helped things for the NSA but everyone has been on a pay/hiring freeze for ages with the public and administration seemingly very anti-federal-employee.
revscat 13y ago
> “The agency, from top to bottom, leadership to rank and file, feels that it is had no support from the White House even though it’s been carrying out publicly approved intelligence missions,” said Joel Brenner, NSA inspector general from 2002 to 2006. Publicly approved? Publicly approved? The amount of rage-induced facepalming this causes is immense. No one in the public has known what they're up to, and Congressional attempts to get insight have been stymied and shut down. No one knew, that is, until Edward Snowden did HIS duty to country. > “They feel they’ve been hung out to dry, and they’re right.” Well, that's good, then. What the NSA does is despicable, unconstitutional, ineffective and a waste of treasure. No threat is worth the cost of what they do. I hope everyone from the rank and file up to Alexander feel like complete shit.
- noarchy 13y ago
  >Publicly approved? Publicly approved? The amount of rage-induced facepalming this causes is immense. No one in the public has known what they're up to, and Congressional attempts to get insight have been stymied and shut down. No one knew, that is, until Edward Snowden did HIS duty to country. This is one of the great weaknesses in how we carry out things in a "democratic" society, imo. We have elections, and use the election to justify everything that happens thereafter as being part of the "public will".
walid 13y ago
Full disclosure: I am not an American citizen. Having said that, isn't it out of place for PR people from the NSA be asking that the president show a form of political endorsement for NSA actions while the NSA is just an agency that does what it is told to do. I mean they are not policy makers and all the noise about NSA surveillance expects Congress and the White House to instigate policy change rather than to "show the love" or hate. The NSA in effect is just an employee, not a policy maker. Am I missing something?
- philwelch 13y ago
  Officially, federal agencies are accountable to the elected government and only do as they are tasked. I invite you to study the history of these agencies and determine for yourself whether or not that's really true.
- poof131 13y ago
  The NSA did what the President asked them to do. Now the President is distancing himself from them for his own political reasons. Americans loathe to blame the leaders they elect, for then they would have to blame themselves. It is easier to blame a rouge Agency. But the only rouge actions of the NSA is the PR you are talking about.
  - alan_cx 13y ago
    Hang on, didnt this start with Clinton, then get widened with each president? If so, then the NSA have been doing what the political establishments wanted, backed by the democratic votes of American people. What I don't like about this is the voters pretending they had nothing to do with it, when their votes endorse each president, and both houses. You cant run from responsibility in a democracy. Americans need to wake up and smell the BS. If grass roots money was enough to get Obama to the top job, which we are led to believe, then grass roots can create a new party. But frankly, I know this will never happen, because when you get down to it, most people are safe enough, employed enough, fed enough and distracted enough, and will there for never risk losing that for a sort of political revolution. Why risk it? UK wise, on one gives a toss in any way shape or form really. The apathy is stunning. Yeah, it gets a mention in the press, and there has been a bit of tokenistic questioning in parliament, but basically, its a non issue. Personally, I find the whole thing depressing. What scares me is wondering how far things do have to go until people revolt, and how many have to suffer before that happens. I think one of the cynical calculations in all this is that these governments have worked out that if only a few people, preferably foreigners, suffer as a result, they will get away with it. So be as bad as you like, just keep the numbers down and try not to make it effect the voters much.
knodi 13y ago
WTF about the American people's morale, fuck your morale NSA.
eternalban 13y ago
me: This whole affair stinks. Hmph. Official state organs, chime in. outlet: "blah blah official boo hoo blah blah" me: Quick, where is my tin foil?
squozzer 13y ago
It's easy to view this event in isolation but the years since 2001 have brought forth several unsettling revelations. 1) Abu Ghraib 2) Gitmo 3) Torture and certain shell games (renditions, black sites) to keep culpability at arm's length 4) Drones turning Earth into a free-fire zone 5) The joys of flying post-911 (TSA, no-fly lists) 6) NSA hoovering the Internet for fun and profit Shall I go on? Do you need links for evidence? We are in a state of nature, sir.
- philwelch 13y ago
  It's cute that you think the NSA dragnet has anything to do with 9/11. This is just the kind of stuff the NSA does. Look up "Echelon".
macspoofing 13y ago
I'd like to think a lot of NSA workers are regular Americans who are also concerned with the revelations. I mean, most aren't decision makers, and wouldn't have a full picture of the entire system.
- mercurial 13y ago
  Maybe you'd like to think that, but that's the opposed of what the article is saying.
- gnu8 13y ago
  I'd like to think a lot of Nazi death camp workers are regular Germans who are also concerned about the mass executions. I mean, most aren't decision makers, and wouldn't have a full picture of the entire system.
  - macspoofing 13y ago
    That was fast
wesleyd 13y ago
I'm sure the Watergate burglars had low morale too after they got caught.
xacaxulu 13y ago
My morale would be low too if I had just deprived billions of people of their rights to privacy. It could be said that suicide would be a good option for anyone suffering from especially low morale regarding their complicity in the largest breach of trust in US history. They aren't sorry, they're sorry they got caught.
deleted 13y ago
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natch 13y ago
It's about time. With scummy, law-breaking, deceitful, cynical, practices that hold the most cherished rights and freedoms of people everywhere in contempt, and bald-faced lying to congress, no less, on the part of top management, what's to feel good about?
x0054 13y ago
This yet again points out how spineless Obama is. He stated on the record that he supports everything that NSA does, and that their work is invaluable to United States. And yet, he is not standing behind them, he is doing what's more politically prudent for him self. Basically saying one thing, while doing another. How typical! To be clear, I think what NSA does is despicable, if I had the power, I would close down the organization and prosecute some of the people in it. But, I think a man should stand by what he believes in. If you believe NSA does good, stand by it, if you don't, do something about it. Stop sitting on the fucking fence!
shmerl 13y ago
What did they expect? That abusing power will be cheered?
alexeisadeski3 13y ago
Tragedy.
zmmmmm 13y ago
I feel for the people on the "front line", so to speak, but if it does anything to add to the chance that internally the NSA will recognise that no, what they are doing is NOT ok, then I am glad for it nonetheless. They need to feel it from every angle, including internally.
- swalkergibson 13y ago
  Why do you feel badly for those people? Even if they were sold a bill of goods at the outset, and they thought they were doing what was right for "the greater good," what about now? Once the authenticity of the leaks was verified, why didn't they leave immediately? Fuck them. Every last one of them still there is a bad apple.
alexeisadeski3 13y ago
Wonder how much of the morale depletion can be traced to the fact that many of the surveillance systems put in place by the NSA will now be much less useful, given that the targets now know how to evade the NSA's wide net. The targets are aware that they must have as minimal a virtual footprint as possible, must eschew almost all telephone use, etc. They will also push for their associates, friends, family to all have as little virtual presence and phone use as possible (not easy to do, but important for them!). Once these measures are taken, the NSA's entire world, everything they've been working on for the past decade plus, will have been exploded.
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heromat 13y ago
I know that the American People are heartly and cordial. But killing and spying in the name of freedom isn't acceptable. American people don't deserve agencies like the NSA or the CIA. I hope that there are many freedom fighters like Snowden to come. Get rid of this type of total surveillance! (Btw: dear entrepreneurs, please respect our privacy.) -- A european fellow who once respected and admired the US.
DannoHung 13y ago
Good! I hope their morale continues to fall as they realize that they are committing continuing acts of treason and violations of the US Constitution. Let their morale sink so low that they have clear consciences.
joering2 13y ago
It is somehow relevant and was interesting to learn about state "nullification". http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/12/03/some-nsa-opponents-want-to-nullify-surveillance-with-state-law http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/12/03/some-nsa-oppo...
azernik 13y ago
“The agency, from top to bottom, leadership to rank and file, feels that it is had no support from the White House even though it’s been carrying out publicly approved intelligence missions,” said Joel Brenner, NSA inspector general from 2002 to 2006. Despite this being totally incorrect from the broader perspective ("publicly approved" but no one knew about it??), this actually makes me feel a little sympathetic - the political echelons (Congress, the Bush and Obama administrations) handed down the orders to do this, and now the elected politicians are all acting like it's something that "just happened" outside of their control.
nl 13y ago
I think people are missing what this is. This article isn't a puff piece about NSA morale. It's a demand from the security apparatus for political support - especially for legislation to make recording of phone records legal. Read the article - there is very little mention of morale at all, whereas there are many anonymous quotes asking for the President to get behind them: former officials who say they are dismayed that President Obama has not visited the agency to show his support. employees are privately voicing frustration at what they perceive as White House ambivalence amid the pounding the agency has taken from critics. A senior administration official who was not authorized to speak on the record said that the White House would normally not endorse legislation so early in the process but that “it’s been clear . . . that we prefer legislation” that preserves the phone records program “while making some changes . . . to potentially strengthen oversight and transparency.” The president has multiple constituencies — I get it. But he must agree that the signals intelligence NSA is providing is one of the most important sources of intelligence today. Former officials note how President George W. Bush paid a visit to the NSA in January 2006, in the wake of revelations by the New York Times that the agency engaged in a counterterrorism program of warrantless surveillance on U.S. soil beginning after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks I think the NSA is seeing this as an opportunity to actually increase their powers by getting legal cover for what they already do. (Also note that it is the Washington Post this is in - ie, it is for a Washington - political - audience who will read what the leaked statements, not the headline)
dmfdmf 13y ago
I agree with Nick Lothian in this comment buried far down the list. The drop in morale is not because of shame about spying on fellow citizens but Obama's lack of explicit political support for what they are doing. The implications of this position does not bode well for our freedoms in this country. The title of this post should be "NSA to Obama; your move". https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6872550 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6872550
sakura_k 13y ago
They say that like it's a bad thing
Aloha 13y ago
I'm likely to get downvoted for this. But not all of what the NSA is doing is bad. I think the phone records program is good. These records are not secret by any means (the phone company owns them, not you) and its a minimally intrusive way using amounts to pattern matching to find some people who might want to hurt me and my countrymen not for who we as individuals are, but simply because we're Americans based on their Call Detail Records history. Having spent the majority of my career working in the Telecom industry, these records are accessed with surprising ease - anyone with any sort of access to the billing system usually has full access to them (Both at a Major ITSP and one of the major wireless carriers in North America) I had actually presumed the government did too - perhaps not in real time, but anytime they wanted on demand. I don't consider it a private thing whom I talked to - I consider the contents of those calls protected, but not the fact I made them. For what its worth, because of the structure of our telephone network, it virtually impossibly to monitor the contents of every call - You'd have to have a recording device or special service trunks to every end point everywhere in the nation. Billing records on the other hand, are generally forwarded to a central collection point for processing into your telephone bill (as well as storage and analysis for traffic planning purposes). For what its worth - I don't think the government has a right to access mobile telephone geolocation data without a warrant - that to me is so clearly protected as it - ought to be - to be a breach of privacy if collected without a warrant. These are simply my opinions, others clearly feel differently - IMO there really is no wrong answer here, it's all about what feels right and just to you, and where your line of privacy is.
chris_wot 13y ago
"Literally, neighbors are asking people, ‘Why are you spying on Grandma?’ And we aren’t. People are feeling bad, beaten down." But you may well be doing so! We have no idea who you are spying on. You don't get to be trusted when you are so secretive.

267 points by mxfh 13y ago

jaryd 13y ago

I wonder if this is just a case of "bad press" for them, or if the broader implications of widespread domestic spying has actually sunk in. Interesting to read this in light of the recent flurry of engineer code-of-ethics style submissions that we've seen lately.

privong 13y ago
Based on the article's statement that "agency employees are privately voicing frustration at what they perceive as White House ambivalence amid the pounding the agency has taken from critics", I suspect it's the "bad press" angle rather than a realization of the (negative) consequences of their actions.
Systemic33 13y ago
You need to consider that the analysts that are complaining here, are trained to not question the motive behind their work, or the implications. They are essentially soldiers following orders, so if they started becoming critical of the task they are doing, they wouldn't be fit to do it, and lose their job. The problem however, is that while they are trained and behave like soldiers, they do not get the gratitude that is usually given to soldiers, because regular soldiers go to combat, and risk their lives, while these stay in the basement at Fort Meade. So their only pat on the back comes from their immediate superiors, in secret.

salient 13y ago

It should've happened before Snowden's revelations, and have their morale down after everything they've been asked to do. They just seem upset about "getting caught" now. Well, cry me a river.

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vidarh 13y ago
People are very good at insulating themselves in bubbles where they convince themselves that everything they do is for the good of people. In those instances it takes public revelations before they will start taking notice. And even when it gets public you can expect that a lot of the morale issues is that some of them will feel betrayed for not getting lots of officials (and Obama) speaking up in their support for doing what many of them presumably still think is vitally important work. This is one of the reasons why transparency is so vital: People with power are scary when they operate without getting to hear what people think about what they do. We're experts at filling in the blanks with what we think we deserve to hear.

spodek 13y ago

More like "USA morale down after Edward Snowden revelations, much of U.S. population says," I'd say. That happens when you do something most people would feel shame for. A major difference between NSA employees and the rest of us is that they can easily stop what they're doing. Let's hope their pitiful loss of morale leads them to develop a conscience, respect for the law, or whatever it takes to stop doing things that lead to feeling so bad. > “They feel they’ve been hung out to dry, and they’re right.” Bullshit. They're adults who chose to do what they did and work where they work. We have emotions to guide our behavior. If they feel bad for the environment they chose to work in and the work they chose to do, maybe they should look in the mirror and ask if they ought to reconsider their choices and do something that doesn't draw shame and contempt from the rest of the world while undermining their county's interests.

JPKab 13y ago
I was in a Hadoop course with a person who had just left the NSA in mid-June (right when the Snowden bomb dropped). She was in complete denial about his allegations, and was outright hostile to the rest of the room for "actually believing he was telling the truth". A key quote: "Do you really think they just let people access these systems without rules? You really believe that?" (the tone was beyond condescending, implying that we were all naive and ignorant) My argument to her was that my experience dealing with intelligence agencies is that they build stuff very quickly, focusing on capabilities. Anytime systems are built like this, safeguards are an afterthought. As it turns out, we were all right, and she was all wrong. I would love to talk to her today and wipe that smug look off her face by pointing out that the "safeguards" were nothing more than policy and rules with zero enforcement mechanisms. Hence the guy who spied on his ex for years without being caught. The fact that, on a personality level, she was one of the more awful people I've been stuck sitting next to in a class, makes me question who the NSA hires. She was hired straight out of college, so I guess the culture was sucked right into her. And man does that culture suck.
- wcummings 13y ago
  >"Do you really think they just let people access these systems without rules? You really believe that?" Saying this while discussing material leaked from the NSA is beyond ironic

PeterisP 13y ago

The article reads as if they're waiting for confirmation that they were right all along. However, USA citizens are still waiting for an admission that they were overboard and will change their ways. These viewpoints aren't reconcilable, and trying to please both is not only hypocritical but simply impossible - the president must make a decision, and set clear the expected direction for NSA; otherwise there can't be good morale if they're unclear if what they're doing is considered by the top leaders as good or evil.

wprl 13y ago
We, the citizens, are the "top leaders." Who cares what the administration thinks? It's time to vote out all Democrats and Republicans.
- Svip 13y ago
  Ho ho. Only problem with that is that American political system isn't really tailored for that. But even ignoring that, a major problem is that good and clever people are not willing to run for Congress in the US, because the climate is so rotten there, that they'd rather work in the private sector (and who can blame them?). So Democrats and Republicans cannot even get decent people to run on their names. And no one is going to rally about the alternatives, because... well, who are the alternatives?
zik 13y ago
I imagine he'll wait until thing die down a little and then quietly give the NSA his approval without risking the public's ire.

wprl 13y ago

good

pvnick 13y ago

I feel a lot of sympathy for these people. At the very least, they honestly believe they're protecting this country and their friends/loved ones. It's not their fault the higher-ups have botched the national security apparatus and turned it into something disgusting and unamerican. Most of them were/are likely unaware of the vast majority of what the agency does, and they had trust in their government that they worked at a trustworthy institution. However, this is one major element that will lead to change. Internal rot will force an organization to adapt faster than any external pressure ever will. NSA workers, current and future, as well as decision-makers need to be forced into a position of deciding whether this surveillance is right for this country. No more sticking their head of their ass and ignoring what the NSA doeas. The revelations are out in the open and more are still coming out. This is not the time for ambivalance. It's a time for making tough choices.

spodek 13y ago
I can see sympathy up to when they discover their work wasn't what they thought it was, for those that were caught off-guard. After all, if their boss was willing to lie to Congress on the record, who knows what lies he and the rest of the organization was willing to spew to them? Once the revelations broke, they alone have responsibility for their actions. I can see giving them a month or two to figure out how to react and to make sure of the leaks' authenticity. At this point I don't see how to see them as anything but complicit out of willful choice. They can choose any moment to leave. Or to blow the whistle and leak more information useful to the citizenry. (Edit to nrmilstein's response: Choosing is simple. As I mentioned, I can see taking months to act.)
- nrmilstein 13y ago
  You make leaving a job seem simple. Not everyone can just "choose any moment to leave." People have careers and families.
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gaius 13y ago

I am reminded of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY

thaumasiotes 13y ago

According to the article, they're not feeling down because they're widely hated by the populace (well, technically, it's mentioned in the last paragraph). They're sad because the president hasn't personally visited their building to give them a pep talk.

crazy1van 13y ago
Are they really widely hated by the populace, or are they just widely hated on small communities like HN?
- superbaconman 13y ago
  After talking with my very conservative family in the mid-west. Yes. They are hated.
- 001sky 13y ago
  This is more than a loaded question. HN has its own views, but they also have an information set perhaps not widely available. The better framing is that, given a(n equal) technical understanding of what NSA is doing, where would the majority stand? I don't think they would stand with the government's over-reach. The red-states don't really go for that, and the blue states don't really go for it either: it's anti-liberal in a different sense. What the NSA is really doing here is protecting the 1%, in the sense that those in power are merely seeking to stay in power at all costs. Ideology, constitution, and every other consideration be damned.
- hrjet 13y ago
  I suppose they have already collected enough data to make the right judgement about how many people hate them.
tbastos 13y ago
Exactly what I was about to comment. They are not really concerned about democracy, they think they know better than the public and it's fine as long as the president supports them. Of course, that's exactly how every authoritarian government works...

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kevrone 13y ago

Oh, ya think?

nspiegelberg 13y ago

"I have spent the best years of my life giving people the lighter pleasures, helping them have a good time, and all I get is abuse, the existence of a hunted man." - Al Capone I think NSA leaders would do well to read Dale Carnegie again and remember that even violent monsters think they are victims.

flatline 13y ago

Plummeting morale has been the norm for federal employees for the last 5+ years. I'm sure the Snowden leaks have not helped things for the NSA but everyone has been on a pay/hiring freeze for ages with the public and administration seemingly very anti-federal-employee.

revscat 13y ago

> “The agency, from top to bottom, leadership to rank and file, feels that it is had no support from the White House even though it’s been carrying out publicly approved intelligence missions,” said Joel Brenner, NSA inspector general from 2002 to 2006. Publicly approved? Publicly approved? The amount of rage-induced facepalming this causes is immense. No one in the public has known what they're up to, and Congressional attempts to get insight have been stymied and shut down. No one knew, that is, until Edward Snowden did HIS duty to country. > “They feel they’ve been hung out to dry, and they’re right.” Well, that's good, then. What the NSA does is despicable, unconstitutional, ineffective and a waste of treasure. No threat is worth the cost of what they do. I hope everyone from the rank and file up to Alexander feel like complete shit.

noarchy 13y ago
>Publicly approved? Publicly approved? The amount of rage-induced facepalming this causes is immense. No one in the public has known what they're up to, and Congressional attempts to get insight have been stymied and shut down. No one knew, that is, until Edward Snowden did HIS duty to country. This is one of the great weaknesses in how we carry out things in a "democratic" society, imo. We have elections, and use the election to justify everything that happens thereafter as being part of the "public will".

walid 13y ago

Full disclosure: I am not an American citizen. Having said that, isn't it out of place for PR people from the NSA be asking that the president show a form of political endorsement for NSA actions while the NSA is just an agency that does what it is told to do. I mean they are not policy makers and all the noise about NSA surveillance expects Congress and the White House to instigate policy change rather than to "show the love" or hate. The NSA in effect is just an employee, not a policy maker. Am I missing something?

philwelch 13y ago
Officially, federal agencies are accountable to the elected government and only do as they are tasked. I invite you to study the history of these agencies and determine for yourself whether or not that's really true.
poof131 13y ago
The NSA did what the President asked them to do. Now the President is distancing himself from them for his own political reasons. Americans loathe to blame the leaders they elect, for then they would have to blame themselves. It is easier to blame a rouge Agency. But the only rouge actions of the NSA is the PR you are talking about.
- alan_cx 13y ago
  Hang on, didnt this start with Clinton, then get widened with each president? If so, then the NSA have been doing what the political establishments wanted, backed by the democratic votes of American people. What I don't like about this is the voters pretending they had nothing to do with it, when their votes endorse each president, and both houses. You cant run from responsibility in a democracy. Americans need to wake up and smell the BS. If grass roots money was enough to get Obama to the top job, which we are led to believe, then grass roots can create a new party. But frankly, I know this will never happen, because when you get down to it, most people are safe enough, employed enough, fed enough and distracted enough, and will there for never risk losing that for a sort of political revolution. Why risk it? UK wise, on one gives a toss in any way shape or form really. The apathy is stunning. Yeah, it gets a mention in the press, and there has been a bit of tokenistic questioning in parliament, but basically, its a non issue. Personally, I find the whole thing depressing. What scares me is wondering how far things do have to go until people revolt, and how many have to suffer before that happens. I think one of the cynical calculations in all this is that these governments have worked out that if only a few people, preferably foreigners, suffer as a result, they will get away with it. So be as bad as you like, just keep the numbers down and try not to make it effect the voters much.

knodi 13y ago

WTF about the American people's morale, fuck your morale NSA.

eternalban 13y ago

me: This whole affair stinks. Hmph. Official state organs, chime in. outlet: "blah blah official boo hoo blah blah" me: Quick, where is my tin foil?

squozzer 13y ago

It's easy to view this event in isolation but the years since 2001 have brought forth several unsettling revelations. 1) Abu Ghraib 2) Gitmo 3) Torture and certain shell games (renditions, black sites) to keep culpability at arm's length 4) Drones turning Earth into a free-fire zone 5) The joys of flying post-911 (TSA, no-fly lists) 6) NSA hoovering the Internet for fun and profit Shall I go on? Do you need links for evidence? We are in a state of nature, sir.

philwelch 13y ago
It's cute that you think the NSA dragnet has anything to do with 9/11. This is just the kind of stuff the NSA does. Look up "Echelon".

macspoofing 13y ago

I'd like to think a lot of NSA workers are regular Americans who are also concerned with the revelations. I mean, most aren't decision makers, and wouldn't have a full picture of the entire system.

mercurial 13y ago
Maybe you'd like to think that, but that's the opposed of what the article is saying.
gnu8 13y ago
I'd like to think a lot of Nazi death camp workers are regular Germans who are also concerned about the mass executions. I mean, most aren't decision makers, and wouldn't have a full picture of the entire system.
- macspoofing 13y ago
  That was fast

wesleyd 13y ago

I'm sure the Watergate burglars had low morale too after they got caught.

xacaxulu 13y ago

My morale would be low too if I had just deprived billions of people of their rights to privacy. It could be said that suicide would be a good option for anyone suffering from especially low morale regarding their complicity in the largest breach of trust in US history. They aren't sorry, they're sorry they got caught.

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natch 13y ago

It's about time. With scummy, law-breaking, deceitful, cynical, practices that hold the most cherished rights and freedoms of people everywhere in contempt, and bald-faced lying to congress, no less, on the part of top management, what's to feel good about?

x0054 13y ago

This yet again points out how spineless Obama is. He stated on the record that he supports everything that NSA does, and that their work is invaluable to United States. And yet, he is not standing behind them, he is doing what's more politically prudent for him self. Basically saying one thing, while doing another. How typical! To be clear, I think what NSA does is despicable, if I had the power, I would close down the organization and prosecute some of the people in it. But, I think a man should stand by what he believes in. If you believe NSA does good, stand by it, if you don't, do something about it. Stop sitting on the fucking fence!

shmerl 13y ago

What did they expect? That abusing power will be cheered?

alexeisadeski3 13y ago

Tragedy.

zmmmmm 13y ago

I feel for the people on the "front line", so to speak, but if it does anything to add to the chance that internally the NSA will recognise that no, what they are doing is NOT ok, then I am glad for it nonetheless. They need to feel it from every angle, including internally.

swalkergibson 13y ago
Why do you feel badly for those people? Even if they were sold a bill of goods at the outset, and they thought they were doing what was right for "the greater good," what about now? Once the authenticity of the leaks was verified, why didn't they leave immediately? Fuck them. Every last one of them still there is a bad apple.

alexeisadeski3 13y ago

Wonder how much of the morale depletion can be traced to the fact that many of the surveillance systems put in place by the NSA will now be much less useful, given that the targets now know how to evade the NSA's wide net. The targets are aware that they must have as minimal a virtual footprint as possible, must eschew almost all telephone use, etc. They will also push for their associates, friends, family to all have as little virtual presence and phone use as possible (not easy to do, but important for them!). Once these measures are taken, the NSA's entire world, everything they've been working on for the past decade plus, will have been exploded.

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heromat 13y ago

I know that the American People are heartly and cordial. But killing and spying in the name of freedom isn't acceptable. American people don't deserve agencies like the NSA or the CIA. I hope that there are many freedom fighters like Snowden to come. Get rid of this type of total surveillance! (Btw: dear entrepreneurs, please respect our privacy.) -- A european fellow who once respected and admired the US.

DannoHung 13y ago

Good! I hope their morale continues to fall as they realize that they are committing continuing acts of treason and violations of the US Constitution. Let their morale sink so low that they have clear consciences.

joering2 13y ago

It is somehow relevant and was interesting to learn about state "nullification". http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/12/03/some-nsa-opponents-want-to-nullify-surveillance-with-state-law http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/12/03/some-nsa-oppo...

azernik 13y ago

“The agency, from top to bottom, leadership to rank and file, feels that it is had no support from the White House even though it’s been carrying out publicly approved intelligence missions,” said Joel Brenner, NSA inspector general from 2002 to 2006. Despite this being totally incorrect from the broader perspective ("publicly approved" but no one knew about it??), this actually makes me feel a little sympathetic - the political echelons (Congress, the Bush and Obama administrations) handed down the orders to do this, and now the elected politicians are all acting like it's something that "just happened" outside of their control.

nl 13y ago

I think people are missing what this is. This article isn't a puff piece about NSA morale. It's a demand from the security apparatus for political support - especially for legislation to make recording of phone records legal. Read the article - there is very little mention of morale at all, whereas there are many anonymous quotes asking for the President to get behind them: former officials who say they are dismayed that President Obama has not visited the agency to show his support. employees are privately voicing frustration at what they perceive as White House ambivalence amid the pounding the agency has taken from critics. A senior administration official who was not authorized to speak on the record said that the White House would normally not endorse legislation so early in the process but that “it’s been clear . . . that we prefer legislation” that preserves the phone records program “while making some changes . . . to potentially strengthen oversight and transparency.” The president has multiple constituencies — I get it. But he must agree that the signals intelligence NSA is providing is one of the most important sources of intelligence today. Former officials note how President George W. Bush paid a visit to the NSA in January 2006, in the wake of revelations by the New York Times that the agency engaged in a counterterrorism program of warrantless surveillance on U.S. soil beginning after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks I think the NSA is seeing this as an opportunity to actually increase their powers by getting legal cover for what they already do. (Also note that it is the Washington Post this is in - ie, it is for a Washington - political - audience who will read what the leaked statements, not the headline)

dmfdmf 13y ago

I agree with Nick Lothian in this comment buried far down the list. The drop in morale is not because of shame about spying on fellow citizens but Obama's lack of explicit political support for what they are doing. The implications of this position does not bode well for our freedoms in this country. The title of this post should be "NSA to Obama; your move". https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6872550 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6872550

sakura_k 13y ago

They say that like it's a bad thing

Aloha 13y ago

I'm likely to get downvoted for this. But not all of what the NSA is doing is bad. I think the phone records program is good. These records are not secret by any means (the phone company owns them, not you) and its a minimally intrusive way using amounts to pattern matching to find some people who might want to hurt me and my countrymen not for who we as individuals are, but simply because we're Americans based on their Call Detail Records history. Having spent the majority of my career working in the Telecom industry, these records are accessed with surprising ease - anyone with any sort of access to the billing system usually has full access to them (Both at a Major ITSP and one of the major wireless carriers in North America) I had actually presumed the government did too - perhaps not in real time, but anytime they wanted on demand. I don't consider it a private thing whom I talked to - I consider the contents of those calls protected, but not the fact I made them. For what its worth, because of the structure of our telephone network, it virtually impossibly to monitor the contents of every call - You'd have to have a recording device or special service trunks to every end point everywhere in the nation. Billing records on the other hand, are generally forwarded to a central collection point for processing into your telephone bill (as well as storage and analysis for traffic planning purposes). For what its worth - I don't think the government has a right to access mobile telephone geolocation data without a warrant - that to me is so clearly protected as it - ought to be - to be a breach of privacy if collected without a warrant. These are simply my opinions, others clearly feel differently - IMO there really is no wrong answer here, it's all about what feels right and just to you, and where your line of privacy is.

chris_wot 13y ago

"Literally, neighbors are asking people, ‘Why are you spying on Grandma?’ And we aren’t. People are feeling bad, beaten down." But you may well be doing so! We have no idea who you are spying on. You don't get to be trusted when you are so secretive.