19 ms·

Microsoft’s Hardware, Round 2: Surface 2 and Surface Pro 2

214 points by bergie 13y ago

philliphaydon 13y ago
Surface Pro with 512gb of space and 8gb ram, if I decide to move country again next year I'm replacing my desktop with a Surface.
- gum_ina_package 13y ago
  I'm a college student studying engineering. I can say that replacing my laptop with my Surface Pro has been amazing. I'm virtually 100% paperless, with all my notes being taken with OneNote (seriously amazing!) and textbooks saved as PDFs. It's also awesome that the Pro has enough power for me to do real dev work on it. So make the switch! You won't be disappointed!
  - CodeCube 13y ago
    OneNote (+ digitizer) is indeed amazing ... I don't have a surface, but I do have a series 7 slate, and I have to say that the writing/drawing experience on win8 is really really nice. Considering upgrading it to the pro 2 now.
    - gum_ina_package 13y ago
      You won't regret the upgrade my friend! I'm actually thinking about buying the docking station for my Surface. I think once I get 8.1 on there and the screen scaling issues are fixed, I'll do that.
      - philliphaydon 13y ago
        8.1 screen scaling is awesome. Flatmate has a iMac with Windows 8.1 on it, 27" display and a low-res 24" display, Windows 8.1 fixed the scaling for the 2nd monitor now that you can set different scaling on each monitor.
      - konstruktor 13y ago
        Downvoted you because this looks like astroturfing. New account, seemingly random nickname, a persona matching the target audience of this site and several postings with purely positive content and a style that doesn't look right on HN. That said, the Surface Pro 2 looks really appealing.
        Kronopath 13y ago
        It's very likely obvious astroturfing. Microsoft does this a lot. Keep this incident in mind next time you hear someone extolling the virtues of Win8-style "flat design".
  - mikevm 13y ago
    I'm a student also, but I've been using the iPad for this. I don't take any notes on the iPad itself because the courses I need to take notes on are mathematical, so I simply write on paper and then when I come back home I scan it and append the scans to an evergrowing PDF file that is synced to my iPad. I'm looking for a replacement for my iPad 2, but I can't settle on anything because all the non-iPad tablets have a widescreen, which I believe is poor choice when it comes to reading PDF textbooks. Right now I read my PDF textbooks in landscape mode, and I use GoodReader to crop the margins, and everything looks fabulous. I'm worried that if I move to a widescreen tablet, I will end up with less vertical space and wasted horizontal space ("black bars" due to incompatible aspect ratios of the page and the screen). How's your experience when it comes to reading these kind of textbooks? Any chance you could provide screenshots of how these textbooks look like when you read them in landscape mode?
    - philliphaydon 13y ago
      I only have a Surface RT :( sad days. Can't say I have any complaints with reading Kindle books or PDFs.
    - Livven 13y ago
      FYI with OneNote and a digitizer stylus as the Surface Pro comes with you can just write your notes on the screen. OneNote will recognize the handwriting and allow you to search through it etc. Sorry if you already know that, from the way your comment is phrased it looks like you don't so I thought I'd throw it out.
      - mikevm 13y ago
        I don't think it'd be particularly efficient. I need to be able to write proofs (which include lots of math symbols) and draw diagrams very quickly. I've seen people do it with digitizers, but the results ends up being rather poor. Pen & paper still looks best.
        mietek 13y ago
        Is there a usable handwriting recognizer which can deal with heavy math notation?
- duaneb 13y ago
  I would love to but my hangup would be with the OS: are tablets well supported by Linux these days?
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    I am going to bet "no". Sure, you will be able to get a driver working, but there are no OneNotes for Linux and the rest of the OS generally has zero concessions to touch. From my times playing with tablets, Linux trails Windows 5-10 years.
    - philliphaydon 13y ago
      It is possible to run Ubuntu on a Surface Pro, so I don't see why you can't dual boot the Surface Pro 2 as well.
      - sliverstorm 13y ago
        I'm not talking about whether or not the tablet can run Linux, but how useful the tablet input device (i.e. Wacom etc) is under Linux.
methodin 13y ago
Was it the device itself that caused such poor sales? I assumed all along it was a marketing/image problem which remains unsolved. Has relentlessness by a company ever overcome this issue in the past?
- JohnTHaller 13y ago
  For the RT, it's marketing (which was lame), confusion (it says it's Windows but it won't run any actual Windows apps), and a lack of any compelling apps. It's Microsoft trying to use their dominance in Windows to extend to the tablet. That's why we're all forced to use the half-assed Start Tiles on the desktop when running Windows 8, so they can put 'Modern' apps (which suck on a desktop) front and center.
  - CodeCube 13y ago
    If they would just make commercials that show artists using the surface as a portable digital easel, authors/students using it as a digital paper replacement, and even some of what they hinted to at the event earlier with someone editing footage on the go ... I think they'd do a heck of a lot better. Focus on what this device does fantastically, rather than poking fun at what "siri can't do".
- Finster 13y ago
  Exhibit A: Xbox vs. Xbox 360.
- Metrop0218 13y ago
  I think it was the device. If you read the reviews (or better yet, used one) you'll see that it suffered from severe performance issues. That seems to have been resolved in the new one (the demos on stage looked convincing, but you have to take that with a grain of salt). The marketing/image problem was to be expected considering it was a new product entering a slightly fermented market. It was always going to take time to build a brand. (full discloser: Windows Phone employee)
- creativeembassy 13y ago
  It was the Surface RT that did so poorly. $900M writeoff that forced out Ballmer. Which is why I'm so surprised that they're attempting to do it again, with the Surface 2. People familiar with Windows want a cheap way to take their desktop with them. That's the primary audience, and introducing an ARM-based tablet that CAN'T run their desktop apps, is killing them. I would have gotten rid of the ARM one entirely (at least until there's a big enough native app economy for it), and found ways to bring down the cost of the Pro, and just sell that one. That said, the smart covers are pretty innovative. Being able to switch between a keyboard one, an extra battery one, and that amazing looking music production, is a stand-out feature. Something that Microsoft needs desperately.
JimmaDaRustla 13y ago
I like keeping the price of RT down, and giving a middle option between it and Pro. I'm interested in Haswell reviews, including the power/heat levels. I just can't justify $900 when I could get an Ultrabook with more power for a little more. I guess that is just the price you pay for form factor.
- chiph 13y ago
  A coworker's wife has a Surface Pro, and the heat it generates is her #1 complaint.
harigov 13y ago
Most of the issues that I had with Surface Pro seems to have been resolved by this update: - Gets pretty hot - new haswell processors seem to be doing better - Short battery life of 5 hrs - 75% improvement brings it to around 8-9 hrs, which is a typical work day and that's a great improvement Overall Surface Pro hardware has always been top class, and I think this version might be the one to buy.
tonydiv 13y ago
Better performance might help this sell, but the second I saw the "Surface Music Kit," I got excited. As a DJ, I need to carry around an expensive laptop to perform. The iPad does not have any impressive apps to DJ (at least not professionally), so I'd be VERY interested if they focused on the niche music market here. Surface 2 + Kinect/Leap + superb DJing app + Spotify-esque music supply = very happy musicians. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone is going to spend the time to develop a quality DJing app.
- saturdaysaint 13y ago
  There are plenty of quality DJing apps for PC - this seems like it would be more than adequate for Serrato/Traktor/etc.
- sleepybrett 13y ago
  It depends on what type of DJ you are I guess. Looking at your 'ultimate equation' it sounds like you might be a wedding DJ so Traktor isn't really your bag.
- math0ne 13y ago
  I'm pretty sure all the best dj apps are available for windows pc...
- 33degrees 13y ago
  I have a friend who is a dj and has been struggling to get his music apps to work properly on his Surface; he ended up having to disable to a bunch of stuff to get it to work glitch free. So I would definitely wait to see how other people get on with the new models before jumping in. Also, Traktor DJ and a Kontrol S2 is definitely a pro level setup for iPad...
- fumar 13y ago
  You do not need an app, if you get Surface Pro 2. I have been running Ableton Live 9 on it. It runs without any problems, I usually hook it up to my APC 40 and microKorg. Fruity Loops is now available in the app store for both devices. http://apps.microsoft.com/windows/en-us/app/fl-studio-groove/45739f6c-beaf-4215-bf87-b64b6f8ad871 http://apps.microsoft.com/windows/en-us/app/fl-studio-groove...
bhauer 13y ago
As a Surface Pro owner [1], I like: * Surface 2 loses the low-density screen. I enjoy that low-density has been deprecated. * The names are right. Surface 2 and Surface Pro 2. No "Surface with Windows RT 8.1" nonsense. * Haswell, yes please. Longer battery life may assuage some popular criticism. * Backlit type cover. I hope this is compatible with my Surface Pro. * Two-position kick stand. I will be envious of this. * Surface 2 is smaller than Surface RT. * More memory in the Pro 2. * Docking station. Depending on the price of that and whether it's compatible with my Surface Pro, I may pick one up. However, I'd prefer to have an inductive charging plate as I have with my Nokia phone. I love the idea of just dropping wireless devices on a plate with no cables, no alignment, no fuss. I am disappointed by: * I personally would have preferred a Surface 2 Pro that leveraged Haswell to reduce the form factor to roughly the same as the original Surface RT. But I've never actually drained my Pro's battery, so I'd take lighter-weight versus increased battery lifespan. I'm usually near an AC outlet when I am out and about. * I would have liked a purely x86 lineup. Bay Trail Atom (or Haswell i3) on the low-end, Haswell i5 on the high-end. * Windows RT needs help. Remove its artificial limitations. Overall, I am fairly satisfied. I may want to replace my wife's netbook with a 2 Pro. [1] http://tiamat.tsotech.com/microsoft http://tiamat.tsotech.com/microsoft
- dangrossman 13y ago
  > I hope this is compatible with my Surface Pro Everything's compatible with the SP. Only the original Surface is missing the extra contacts on bottom for some of the new hardware. Myself, I'll be picking up the Power Cover when that shows up (I'm expecting 2014), but not replacing the tablet. 8ish hours of battery life is plenty for me. I'll save the big money for a real laptop when the rest of the PC makers finally put some Haswell-based stuff on store shelves this holiday season. That it's taken them over a year since the MBA is pathetic. The only thing that keeps me from using SP2 as a desktop replacement is the GPU. I still like to do some casual gaming every once in a while, and Intel's integrated graphics are too far behind nVidia/ATI's discrete offerings in other ultrabooks.
  - LokiSnake 13y ago
    Any word on why it's taking manufacturers so long to get Haswell-based devices out?
untog 13y ago
The Surface Pro 2 could make for a really interesting developer machine. Plug it into external keyboard/monitor when you're at your desk, then just pick it up and take it on the road when you want to. I'm tempted, but part of me can't shake the idea that I'd be replacing my laptop with a tablet, even know I know that's not quite true. Also: Windows. I used to use it, but I've been working in OS X exclusively for a few years now, and going back to the Windows Command Prompt might kill me.
- CodeCube 13y ago
  powershell ... seriously, it's really good. And Cygwin if you really want that unix shell experience :)
  - untog 13y ago
    I don't doubt that Powershell is good, but it's different. I've grown to appreciate being able to use all the same commands on my dev box as I do on my servers, and while Cygwin covers the basics, it doesn't do it all.
    - phaus 13y ago
      With newer versions of Windows, Microsoft has attempted to bring powershell on par with the linux terminal. Supposedly, every admin function possible in the OS is now capable of being performed in Powershell. The only downside is that some if the commands are uneccessarily verbose in comparison.
      - ihsw 13y ago
        Their push into headless Window Server deployment has certainly driven Microsoft to shore up PowerShell. Recently they're taking on declarative server configurations (ie: puppet) with their own brand of it -- Desired State Configuration. http://blogs.technet.com/b/privatecloud/archive/2013/08/30/introducing-powershell-desired-state-configuration-dsc.aspx http://blogs.technet.com/b/privatecloud/archive/2013/08/30/i...
    - deleted 13y ago
kijin 13y ago
The docking station looks fantastic. We've finally reached the day when we can plug in the tablet when we get home and instantly transform it into a full-blown desktop PC! Too bad the 512GB/8GB model will probably cost an arm and a leg, making it more economical for most people to simply buy two computers. But once the price comes down a bit, I can see this becoming a true drop-in replacement for the majority of Windows desktops and laptops out there.
- jsz0 13y ago
  The numbers still don't seem to add up though. For the same price you could get a (much) cheaper/lighter ARM tablet that gets much better battery life and a better desktop. I'm not sure what the point of convergence is here unless you have some specific need to run a legacy win32 app on a tablet.
enko 13y ago
Dear Microsoft: Out of ARM and x86, choose one. Just choose one. For the love of god, choose ONE. Can you imagine Apple, or anyone else, deliberately releasing two different tablets, with the same name, which can not run each others' software? It is inconceivable, and for good reason. MS cannot make decisions. That's what will kill them, long term. Just choose one!!
- jfoutz 13y ago
  Apple actually just made each executable have the binaries for both platforms. It's a good trick.
  - duaneb 13y ago
    Regardless of engineering cleverness it's a very bad decision marketing wise.
  - chrischen 13y ago
    Apple didn't release both simultaneously.
  - koenigdavidmj 13y ago
    Even if you do that, you still can't run your desktop apps on the ARM model. I really don't want to explain to luddite relatives why they can't run a game unless they buy the more expensive model. Either ban desktop apps on both models, or neither.
    - jfoutz 13y ago
      Rosetta worked pretty well.
      - koenigdavidmj 13y ago
        I agree with you that this is technically a solved problem. It's not difficult to develop a system that lets apps run on both architectures without users having to think about this. I'm talking about the management decision that only Metro apps can run on RT, which is such a stupid limitation that even Microsoft sees the need to bypass it to get Office on an RT tablet.
wehadfun 13y ago
I think the problem with the last surface was price: $900 for a mediocre windows laptop with a touch screen or $300 for a mediocre windows laptop without a touchscreen.
eliben 13y ago
Those prices are... delusional.
- nbevans 13y ago
  Why? Did you even look at the specs? They are far in advance of the capabilities of an iPad. It's a full blown "PC as a Tablet". Even having a DisplayPort output and single USB port on a tablet device immediately makes it worth $200 more than any iPad.
  - eliben 13y ago
    Because you can get a much more powerful laptop for much less, if you need a "real PC". If you need a tablet, you can get one for far less too. Heck, you can get a great laptop + a great tablet for less! This is a delusional move from a company that's so far behind in this area that it's no longer funny.
    - nbevans 13y ago
      You do realise there is a massively expanding market for tablets don't you? That tablet PC's are actively cannibalising the laptop market?
    - nivla 13y ago
      That is not a good comparison. That is like asking someone, why do they need a smart phone when they can get a regular phone + a netbook for half the price. Believe it or not there is a niche market for Tablet+PC forms. It was one of the main reason and the best decision I made when purchasing the Surface Pro. For travelling, I no longer need to carry my Laptop + Tablet. I just take the Surface Pro (It is setup to use my dev environments exactly as on the PC) and when I get back, I sync the changes to the laptop. Not only can I get real work done on the plane but can also switch to tablet mode and play some useless games when tired. However, that is my experience but your mileage may vary.
      - eliben 13y ago
methodin 13y ago
Does the Surface cut it as a machine for developers?
- objclxt 13y ago
  I hear great things about the Pro. You would definitely not want the RT/ARM models as a developer. Whether you want to spend $900+ on the Surface Pro to use a dev machine is another matter.
- Livven 13y ago
  Performance-wise the Pro is no different than the MBA or any other ultrabook, so it all comes down to the form factor. For portable (especially lap) use the combination of kickstand + type cover makes typing a bit more difficult than a normal laptop, but on a desk it works pretty well. There are two caveats though: the relatively small screen and fixed kickstand angles (now there are two different angles but obviously still not as flexible as a notebook). It only makes sense if you expect to use the tablet/touch features a lot, in addition to the traditional desktop. I plan on getting one mainly for the digitizer to take notes, so having a full portable computer is a nice bonus and justifies the price since I currently don't have a notebook.
- barista 13y ago
  the touch cover is not that great but the type cover is awesome for typing. Looks like the second version of it is backlit as well so it does make for a great dev PC
  - nivla 13y ago
    I totally agree with you. The touch cover is useless. I haven't got a chance to try the type cover yet, but I assume it to much tolerable than the touch cover. The only complaint, it doesn't come in colors :(
- binarycrusader 13y ago
  Since they now offer double the memory and increased the storage options, yes!
Pxtl 13y ago
Big thing missing from the line-up: WinRT HDMI-stick. A Windows-powered answer to the MK808/Ouya/VitaStation and similar products, bundled with a nice wireless keyboard/mouse remote gizmo - something like this: http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/itemdetails/57Y6678/460/4C2830F486C64CF7A8A1E619AB6729AA http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/itemdetails/57Y6678/460/4C2830F... WinRT's consistent support for keyboard/mouse sets it apart from touch-oriented Android. Wireless handheld keyboard/mouse is hard to get right, but touchscreen without touching is harder. WinRT could be great on TVs. But MS would worry about cannibalizing their XBox sales.
- sjmulder 13y ago
  I tried using Windows 8 with a TV and it’s almost there but not quite – if they fix a few things it would be perfect: - At 720p you cannot run Windows Store apps (needs to be 768 minimum) - At 1080p much of the UI is too small. You can increase the font size but that’s not always enough. - Surprisingly, while keyboard navigation is great, it doesn't seem to support the Xbox 360 controller at all for navigating through the UI.
  - barista 13y ago
    Actually if you are thinking of connecting your PC to your TV then Windows 7 is still the best bet. It's a well kept secret but a quiet PC connected to TV beats any other media solution out there hands down.
    - Pxtl 13y ago
      Yes, but that's an expensive option compared to ARM-based devices. I mean, you can get a pretty good Android-based ARM device with a spiffy remote for like $80. You'll be spending 5X that much for a decent X86+Windows solution. That's why WinRT opens up a new market for them. A WinRT device for light gaming, photos, video-chat, etc. for your TV would be nifty.
  - joenathan 13y ago
    Your first two issues are addressed in Windows 8.1
__abc 13y ago
Who's the guying posing in the photo's? He looks miserable.
- meepmorp 13y ago
  Yeah, it's weird. Maybe it's just poor choice of photos by Ars, but the guy looks like a bored, minimum wage employee hawking those things at a mall kiosk.
  - chatman 13y ago
    That is insulting. Perhaps you earn more than "minimum wage", but please be respectful to everyone. Everyone out there is doing a job and deserves respect, even if he's earning a minimum wage or if he's working at a mall kiosk.
    - meepmorp 13y ago
      Yeah, after I wrote it I thought it sounded a little obnoxious. Ah well. At least I got a nice lecture about respect.
- rlu 13y ago
  His name is Panos Panay and he's VP of Surface. I agree he isn't very photogenic but if you actually watch him present....it's a whole different story. You can probably find his part of the Surface 1 announcement on youtube and I'm sure the one today will be put up later.
  - celerity 13y ago
    I came away from today's presentation thinking that he was an unusually bad presenter. IMHO he failed to explain why the Surface Pro 2 was better at the things he was claiming it was better at, didn't give concrete details on basic specifications (saying "25% better battery life" is useless unless you know what his supposed base is), and made too many lame jokes.
shurcooL 13y ago
Why is there a photo of an external monitor with 3840x2160 and nothing is mentioned about it? Is it because it's just a hypothetical display that could be connected via the Mini DisplayPort, had it existed?
- daeken 13y ago
  I was really hoping they'd announce that they are releasing such a display, to go along with the new Surfaces. I'd have bought one, along with a Surface Pro 2 and a docking station.
  - shurcooL 13y ago
    That's what I assumed was happening when I first saw that photo, hence my disappointment.
- akmiller 13y ago
  Because it supports external displays up to 3840x2160. Edit: Sorry, misunderstood your question!
- teamonkey 13y ago
  3840x2160 is Ultra HD. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution#Monitors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution#Monitors
  - felixfurtak 13y ago
    Strange nomenclature. I would have thought it should be called Quad-HD since it is precisely 4 x 1920x1080 screens.
codeulike 13y ago
As it happens I bought a second hand Surface Pro from ebay and it arrived today. Moving to it from a laptop thats a couple of years old, the Surface Pro is absolutely blowing me away. Faster than my old laptop, also acts as a tablet, using desktop applications via touch actually works, the pen is brilliant. The 128gb will be fine for me, because I've got used to living within about 120Gb.
- JonFish85 13y ago
  128GB minus whatever OS overhead there is... I know it's a nitpick, but definitely something to keep in mind.
  - mcintyre1994 13y ago
    It's relatively significant for a nitpick, "The 128 GB version has approximately 85 GB free hard disk space." per http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-gb/support/storage-files-and-folders/surface-disk-space-faq http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-gb/support/storage-files... That's probably a combination of OS and the doublespeak/marketing definition of gigabyte though.
    - mahyarm 13y ago
      Just like the Macbook Air with it's 128GB SSD has a bunch of it taken up OS X when you get the device? I look at the surface pro as microsoft's macbook air equivalent.
      - steve-howard 13y ago
        I'd say the Ultrabook family is Microsoft's macbook air equivalent. I'm a big fan of the Samsung Series 9, and I don't think I could go back to a bulkier form factor for my next machine. Disclaimer: I work at Microsoft, not in anything related.
    - codeulike 13y ago
      Its actually 96GB free on the Surface Pro 128GB (source: http://www.zdnet.com/microsoft-officially-and-confusingly-discloses-surface-pro-storage-figures-7000011078/ http://www.zdnet.com/microsoft-officially-and-confusingly-di... ), and you can get it up to 104GB of free space by moving the recovery files (for if you need to reinstall the OS) off onto some other media. Of the 24GB still taken up, I gather some of that is because Office is pre-installed (but not activated) and presumably that can be removed too.
saturdaysaint 13y ago
I like the Pro, but the non-Pro Surface doesn't strike me as any more competitive than last year's model. It's heavier than it's main competitor with lower resolution and orders of magnitude fewer apps. And it does nothing to address the wave of great mini tablets. Maybe I'm alone here, but I don't want to hold anything heavier than a pound for more than a few minutes. Also, with iOS 7 rolling out, MS is going to have a lot harder time playing the "fresh new interface" card.
- pjmlp 13y ago
  Given that iOS 7 is a copy of what MS and Google were already offering on their systems, why not?
  - saturdaysaint 13y ago
    Because there are already more people using iOS 7 every hour of their day than ever actually used Metro or any single variant of Android. Who was first is pretty irrelevant to average Joe/Jane picking their next phone.
    - pjmlp 13y ago
      Only in US, in the rest of the world it is a different story.
      - saturdaysaint 13y ago
        Metro isn't popular in any country that you could call a leading indicator of OS success, and there is no consistent Android UI to speak of anywhere.
danso 13y ago
> Another cover that's totally out of left field is the "Surface Music Kit," a Touch Cover with a mixing deck instead of a keyboard. All the new Touch Covers are pressure sensitive, so for the Music kit, the harder you hit the Touch Cover, the louder the sound plays. I'm not a music person but pressure-sensitive controls seems like the next frontier for touch devices (that, and Kinect-type cam interfaces)...I was going to say, "the iPad will likely fall behind here"...but it looks like third-party vendors are adding pressure-capability via Bluetooth: http://www.tuaw.com/2013/08/20/wacom-unveils-pressure-sensitive-intuos-creative-stylus-for-ipad/ http://www.tuaw.com/2013/08/20/wacom-unveils-pressure-sensit...
pearjuice 13y ago
It looks better than the original Surface, and seems to address the main issues. The better battery will be a huge advantage. Not a fan of the thinner keyboard though, the travel isn't too great anyway with the S Pro 1. Also, who the fuck cares about back-lighting?
- pycassa 13y ago
  some people do.. I can touch type, but sometimes when I need to press some key other than the alphabet I have to search for it.. back lit keyboards are very helpful when I'm trying to use my computer in the night without any lights. but I do hope there is a hotkey(function key) to turn off the back light when I'm watching a movie or something.
  - pearjuice 13y ago
    Just take the keyboard of?
  - dangrossman 13y ago
    The new keyboard covers have a proximity sensor. The backlight is only on when your hands are near it.
ChuckMcM 13y ago
Very nice. Pretty much everything I read was a net positive for the product, the only quibble might be the price but of all the things you can change in the future that is easiest to change :-). I was intrigued by the music keyboard, not because I think the Surface is the instrument of the future, but because I think there is a market for a device which can easily customize its input experience like that. I have thought for a while that future test equipment from Tektronix or Agilent might look like that but with a scope control panel and a dock for attaching probes. Like the 2 position kickstand, the one we got at work to do testing on that was annoying. I bet Surface 3 touts an infinitely adjustable one :-). I think the ARM/x86 messaging is pretty spot on as well, Microsoft is playing the "its just windows" card pretty hard and dropping the RT moniker was smart too. Most consumers could care less about instruction set architecture. And what happens when Apple makes an Air with the A7 ? Will Apple have the 2 x 2 matrix (iOS/MacOS)(ARM/x86)? and Microsoft the 1 x 2 matrix (Windows)(ARM/x86) ? I'd think the latter long term is easier to message and less confusing for customers. If they go all Ubuntu like and create a Win 8.1 phone experience then there product / os vector is 1x3 (Windows)(phone/tablet/laptop). That said, for me it reinforces the notion that this is the year of the Linux desktop. I recently had the experience of using a USB serial cable that worked under Linux but not under Windows 7. That was one of the signs for me that perhaps Windows was ceding the development workstation business (or at least not paying attention to it). That should be good news for folks like System76.
davidacoder 13y ago
Why, oh why is there no version with 3G/LTE? That is by far the biggest bummer, imho. For people that are on the road a lot that makes such a difference, and pretty much all other tablets offer that option, so it seems really lame to not have that. Also, if I spent $1800 for a Surface Pro in the best configuration, I really would expect it to have the same connectivity as a iPad mini... Other than that, this seems like the perfect device (the Pro version).
- motdiem 13y ago
  My guess is that"s why they're bundling a free 2yrs skype wifi with it - no 3G, but free access to many hotspots. Not sure it's a worthwile tradeoff for everyone though.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- IanDrake 13y ago
  1) The hardware would cost more 2) It would cost money to add the device to your Mobile account 3) You can just use the mobile hotspot feature on your phone and connect through that. Its easy on my Nokia 928. Hell, half the time I have my wife's iphone connected to my phone via WIFI because she has AT&T (for work reasons) and they suck most places we go.
  - philliphaydon 13y ago
    I actually think 3g on tablets is rather silly now. With basically all mobile phones having the ability to share internet, why do you need to pay additional money for another mobile plan...
    - bcoates 13y ago
      Because I don't want to destroy my phone's battery and light my pants on fire.
      - 13y ago
phaus 13y ago
Still no keyboard that can be used without a table. Most people spend less than $700 on a laptop. Not many people are going to spend more than that on a device that was intentionally rendered less capable so Microsoft could sell gimicky keyboard covers. Microsoft knows how to make nice hardware. All they need to do is create a true hybrid device that sets the example for the industry.
- nbevans 13y ago
  On-screen keyboard for "not on a table" scenarios. Compromise? Yes. But acceptable compromise? Probably; how many people do "productive" input-oriented work that isn't on a table?
  - phaus 13y ago
    I write essays for my classes and even code a little bit pretty much everywhere. In the car, lying in bed, on the sofa. The funny thing is, I did most of this on an iPad with a Clamcase Pro. If someone didn't want to do productive input-oriented work, why would they need a tablet with a Haswell processor?
    - mahyarm 13y ago
      Couldn't you get something like the clamcase pro then for the surface? This type of cover is for people who want something as minimal as an ipad smart cover.
      - phaus 13y ago
        No one has made one yet, because the Surface wasn't popular enough to make it profitable. Microsoft proved with the first generation that they have the chops required to make hardware that's just as nice as Apple's. Everyone praised the Surface's hardware, they just didn't like the battery life of the Ivy Bridge version nor Windows RT. Unfortunately, the inability of the Surface to be used as a laptop makes it a secondary device for most people. A $900 secondary device is going to be way too expensive for most people, who as I already said, pay less than $700 for their primary devices. 1st party devices are almost universally better than third-party devices. For example, while I loved my Clamcase Pro, I bet it wouldn't have died after less than a year if it had been made by Apple. That's why I was hoping that Microsoft would see the potential in making a proper keyboard for the Surface 2. The closest thing we have right now is the Lenovo Helix. It's a nice device, but it was launched with Ivy Bridge right around the time Haswell was released, and it costs a fortune when compared to the surface or a Macbook Air.
th0ma5 13y ago
Can one get Debian, SUSE, or CentOS running on either of these yet?
- lallysingh 13y ago
  My question exactly. Ubuntu and KDE are supposed to have nice tablet features. Running either one of them, emacs, and git are my version of Office.
- nivla 13y ago
  Cross-posting from one of my comments above: I know you can on the Surface Pro 1. So I don't see why you won't be able to on the Surface Pro 2. Its an x86 machine as per their own requirement, bios have to be unlocked and the ability to disable secure boot must be present.
bcoates 13y ago
How much of the battery life on a tablet is RAM? I moved down from 8GB to 4 when I switched from a big laptop to surface, and the only performance difference I noticed was substantially improved hibernate times. I'd hate to get a bunch of battery life back from Haswell just to burn it all on RAM I don't even want to get the 512GB model.
shanselman 13y ago
I'm surprised they didn't stress Windows 8.1 more. I have an original Surface RT ("O.G.") and it was essentially unused in my house until I got Windows 8.1 on it...changed everything. It's a much more usable OS.
Mikeb85 13y ago
Microsoft should never have released Windows RT. The one reason, and the one biggest reason that people use Windows is backwards compatibility... By breaking that, they essentially undermined their own monopoly power, and now everyone is developing to be platform-agnostic. And let's face it - no one has actually liked MS products in a decade, they've simply put up with them. Now that people aren't forced to use MS products, they don't. It doesn't matter whether or not the Surface 2 is any good, MS killed the only thing going for them...
- josefresco 13y ago
  "And let's face it - no one has actually liked MS products in a decade, they've simply put up with them." Windows 7 was widely praised, Xbox 360 is the winning console, Kinect was revolutionary and widely praised, and of course MS Office is still the premier office suite (I would argue that people "put up with" the alternatives).
  - Mikeb85 13y ago
    And yet Apple is the platform making gains (with OSX), especially in people's homes - and has been for the better part of a decade. I don't know when you last walked through a University, but Macbooks make up the majority of laptops students are using. What people 'want' isn't a Windows PC (as their sales are showing - especially in higher price points). You're right about the consoles (except the kinect, I don't know a single person who owns it) however, but the console crowd are a fickle bunch, and the way things are shaping up, the PS4 could be the winner this time round...
martin1b 13y ago
Surface RT owner here (freebie). LOVE the interface. Love the hardware (nice solid feel and excellent touch recognition). Wish kickstand would have 2 positions.. It's slower than a pro but I can deal with that. Crappy cameras, but not a show stopper. My main beef why I can't recommend it is compatibility. If that was addressed, the number of apps would skyrocket and I'd be a huge fan. You would think since MSFT is late to this market, putting in a low-medium cost, highly functional tablet to reverse the trend to apple and google would allow them to catch up quickly. The pro price is currently on par to an Ipad. Hopefully CEO #3 will do that.
Yuioup 13y ago
Fail 2 and Fail Pro 2
- camus 13y ago
  Yeah, yet Microsoft still believes in that failure. They dont get that nobody want their Microsoft stuffs, they should stick to software. Nobody trust Microsoft anymore. Especially businnesses after X license audits ... I'm glad people understand how dangerous this company really is. They definetly lost the cellphone/tablet battle.
abuzzooz 13y ago
Microsoft sticking to Tegra is an interesting choice. I'm not saying it's bad, but still interesting given the current dynamics of the mobile market. Now that they have Nokia, I predict that Microsoft will attempt to acquire NVIDIA in order to mimic Apple's and Samsung's vertical strategies. Not sure Jen-Hsun or the board would agree though.
garg 13y ago
This seems like a good alternative to the new Wacom Cintiq Companion ($2000) geared towards digital artists.
moron4hire 13y ago
There are some problems with comparing a Windows Surface Pro tablet to an iPad. The availability of programs is such that you're not going to use the iPad for content creation, and you're probably not going to use the Surface for gaming. The Surface is not a pick-up-and-go sort of device. It's a laptop with a mutli-touch display. I'm building a program right now for Windows 8, on Dell hardware[1]. I've gotten quite used to the OS by now, and as long as you have a touch display, it doesn't really deserve the criticism I've read. I remember hearing the same thing about Windows XP and Windows Vista and Windows 7. The thing that I like the most about using Windows 8 is that all of my software just, like, works. A little bit of that is luck: if I had written any programs that had heavy use of keyboard shortcuts, it wouldn't work without a blutooth keyboard. If I had written any programs that expected the screen to never resize, that too would break. But those are pretty bad programming habits to begin with. My programs don't look great, but that is a temporary problem. And I can program for it with the same tools that I'm using for Windows 7 (hell, I can program on it). I don't have to wait for someone to make a something-to-something-else translator to use my favorite language to write programs like I do on iOS or Android. I don't have to wait for someone to make a decent text editor on iOS or Android. I don't have to wait for someone to write decent source control software for iOS or Android. I have it all, already. I can do whatever I want. Hell, if I want to install Linux on the thing, I could. Of course, it's probably not going to play nicely with the touch screen, but that is a different issue. The Surface Pro is just a PC. [1] The Dell hardware isn't great, but it has a regular, ol', USB port on it, which makes it amazing. I've played with the Surface Pro at a Staples and found it to be better than this Dell device in every way.
- MBCook 13y ago
  It's quite clear that the Surface (formerly RT) was designed to compete with the iPad, and the Surface Pro (formerly just Surface) was designed to be a hybrid/laptop replacement. Unfortunately, Microsoft managed to make both products look nearly identical and use the same name for both. The little I heard about the Surface was from people who bought an RT thinking it was a normal Windows computer and returned it. I'm glad they're working to clear up the confusion with better naming and a slightly different look.
ChikkaChiChi 13y ago
Windows CE, Windows Mobile, Windows Surface RT v1. I've given MS plenty of chances. I think it's time I moved on.
SimonPStevens 13y ago
There is a simple change Microsoft need to make to the Surface RT to make it viable. Fix app compatibility. Start by removing the artificial restriction on desktop apps. Currently desktop apps are restricted to those signed by Microsoft. If they were to remove this restriction there's a whole load of apps that could be recompiled to target ARM and work on the RT desktop. Companies and open source devs would be far more willing to spend a small amount of time porting existing code bases to ARM than re-writing whole apps for 'Metro style'. On top of that, Microsoft already have a platform compatibility layer in .Net. And they clearly already have a ARM version of the .Net runtime as you can build Metro apps targeting .Net. It seems absolutely crazy that they don't make use of this already existing compatibility layer that could allow all existing .Net apps to run on RT desktop without change. This would make the surface RT a far more interesting proposition for companies looking to deploy their internal homegrown enterprise apps to windows tablets. This change would re-position the RT from it's current state as a underwhelming curiosity who's main competitor is IPads and Android tablets which have a wider range of apps (and are significantly cheaper in the case of some Android brands) to a true low-mid end laptop alternative with decent app support at a similar price point. The Surface pro stays as it is as a high end laptop alternative.
- edandersen 13y ago
  Windows RT already has a full version of the .NET 4.5 Runtime for ARM. If you disable the Microsoft signature check, existing .NET apps do just run. A wasted opportunity - they don't want competition for their new App Store.. I wouldn't be surprised if RT was actually sold at a loss hoping to make up sales via apps like Xbox or razor blades.
  - SimonPStevens 13y ago
    "A wasted opportunity" - completely. I wasn't actually aware there was already a full ARM .net runtime, that just makes it even more stupid. Remove that signature check and I would probably have brought an RT for every member of my family, confident that the apps would appear fairly quickly as they got ported to ARM. As it is the RT is irrelevant with little prospect of the number of useful apps increasing, and the pro is too pricey to justify. I keep considering it, but always end up sticking with a laptop at half the price. I say all this as a Microsoft fan in the main. The surface concept is so close to my ideal device. It's so so close to being exactly what I've been waiting for, but yet somehow manages to entirely miss the mark just through the presences of a little software lock.
quizzas 13y ago
No LTE means no enterprise clients like me.

214 points by bergie 13y ago

Surface Pro with 512gb of space and 8gb ram, if I decide to move country again next year I'm replacing my desktop with a Surface.

gum_ina_package 13y ago
I'm a college student studying engineering. I can say that replacing my laptop with my Surface Pro has been amazing. I'm virtually 100% paperless, with all my notes being taken with OneNote (seriously amazing!) and textbooks saved as PDFs. It's also awesome that the Pro has enough power for me to do real dev work on it. So make the switch! You won't be disappointed!
- CodeCube 13y ago
  OneNote (+ digitizer) is indeed amazing ... I don't have a surface, but I do have a series 7 slate, and I have to say that the writing/drawing experience on win8 is really really nice. Considering upgrading it to the pro 2 now.
  - gum_ina_package 13y ago
    You won't regret the upgrade my friend! I'm actually thinking about buying the docking station for my Surface. I think once I get 8.1 on there and the screen scaling issues are fixed, I'll do that.
    - philliphaydon 13y ago
      8.1 screen scaling is awesome. Flatmate has a iMac with Windows 8.1 on it, 27" display and a low-res 24" display, Windows 8.1 fixed the scaling for the 2nd monitor now that you can set different scaling on each monitor.
    - konstruktor 13y ago
      Downvoted you because this looks like astroturfing. New account, seemingly random nickname, a persona matching the target audience of this site and several postings with purely positive content and a style that doesn't look right on HN. That said, the Surface Pro 2 looks really appealing.
      - Kronopath 13y ago
        It's very likely obvious astroturfing. Microsoft does this a lot. Keep this incident in mind next time you hear someone extolling the virtues of Win8-style "flat design".
- mikevm 13y ago
  I'm a student also, but I've been using the iPad for this. I don't take any notes on the iPad itself because the courses I need to take notes on are mathematical, so I simply write on paper and then when I come back home I scan it and append the scans to an evergrowing PDF file that is synced to my iPad. I'm looking for a replacement for my iPad 2, but I can't settle on anything because all the non-iPad tablets have a widescreen, which I believe is poor choice when it comes to reading PDF textbooks. Right now I read my PDF textbooks in landscape mode, and I use GoodReader to crop the margins, and everything looks fabulous. I'm worried that if I move to a widescreen tablet, I will end up with less vertical space and wasted horizontal space ("black bars" due to incompatible aspect ratios of the page and the screen). How's your experience when it comes to reading these kind of textbooks? Any chance you could provide screenshots of how these textbooks look like when you read them in landscape mode?
  - philliphaydon 13y ago
    I only have a Surface RT :( sad days. Can't say I have any complaints with reading Kindle books or PDFs.
  - Livven 13y ago
    FYI with OneNote and a digitizer stylus as the Surface Pro comes with you can just write your notes on the screen. OneNote will recognize the handwriting and allow you to search through it etc. Sorry if you already know that, from the way your comment is phrased it looks like you don't so I thought I'd throw it out.
    - mikevm 13y ago
      I don't think it'd be particularly efficient. I need to be able to write proofs (which include lots of math symbols) and draw diagrams very quickly. I've seen people do it with digitizers, but the results ends up being rather poor. Pen & paper still looks best.
      - mietek 13y ago
        Is there a usable handwriting recognizer which can deal with heavy math notation?
duaneb 13y ago
I would love to but my hangup would be with the OS: are tablets well supported by Linux these days?
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  I am going to bet "no". Sure, you will be able to get a driver working, but there are no OneNotes for Linux and the rest of the OS generally has zero concessions to touch. From my times playing with tablets, Linux trails Windows 5-10 years.
  - philliphaydon 13y ago
    It is possible to run Ubuntu on a Surface Pro, so I don't see why you can't dual boot the Surface Pro 2 as well.
    - sliverstorm 13y ago
      I'm not talking about whether or not the tablet can run Linux, but how useful the tablet input device (i.e. Wacom etc) is under Linux.

methodin 13y ago

Was it the device itself that caused such poor sales? I assumed all along it was a marketing/image problem which remains unsolved. Has relentlessness by a company ever overcome this issue in the past?

JohnTHaller 13y ago
For the RT, it's marketing (which was lame), confusion (it says it's Windows but it won't run any actual Windows apps), and a lack of any compelling apps. It's Microsoft trying to use their dominance in Windows to extend to the tablet. That's why we're all forced to use the half-assed Start Tiles on the desktop when running Windows 8, so they can put 'Modern' apps (which suck on a desktop) front and center.
- CodeCube 13y ago
  If they would just make commercials that show artists using the surface as a portable digital easel, authors/students using it as a digital paper replacement, and even some of what they hinted to at the event earlier with someone editing footage on the go ... I think they'd do a heck of a lot better. Focus on what this device does fantastically, rather than poking fun at what "siri can't do".
Finster 13y ago
Exhibit A: Xbox vs. Xbox 360.
Metrop0218 13y ago
I think it was the device. If you read the reviews (or better yet, used one) you'll see that it suffered from severe performance issues. That seems to have been resolved in the new one (the demos on stage looked convincing, but you have to take that with a grain of salt). The marketing/image problem was to be expected considering it was a new product entering a slightly fermented market. It was always going to take time to build a brand. (full discloser: Windows Phone employee)
creativeembassy 13y ago
It was the Surface RT that did so poorly. $900M writeoff that forced out Ballmer. Which is why I'm so surprised that they're attempting to do it again, with the Surface 2. People familiar with Windows want a cheap way to take their desktop with them. That's the primary audience, and introducing an ARM-based tablet that CAN'T run their desktop apps, is killing them. I would have gotten rid of the ARM one entirely (at least until there's a big enough native app economy for it), and found ways to bring down the cost of the Pro, and just sell that one. That said, the smart covers are pretty innovative. Being able to switch between a keyboard one, an extra battery one, and that amazing looking music production, is a stand-out feature. Something that Microsoft needs desperately.

JimmaDaRustla 13y ago

I like keeping the price of RT down, and giving a middle option between it and Pro. I'm interested in Haswell reviews, including the power/heat levels. I just can't justify $900 when I could get an Ultrabook with more power for a little more. I guess that is just the price you pay for form factor.

chiph 13y ago
A coworker's wife has a Surface Pro, and the heat it generates is her #1 complaint.

harigov 13y ago

Most of the issues that I had with Surface Pro seems to have been resolved by this update: - Gets pretty hot - new haswell processors seem to be doing better - Short battery life of 5 hrs - 75% improvement brings it to around 8-9 hrs, which is a typical work day and that's a great improvement Overall Surface Pro hardware has always been top class, and I think this version might be the one to buy.

tonydiv 13y ago

Better performance might help this sell, but the second I saw the "Surface Music Kit," I got excited. As a DJ, I need to carry around an expensive laptop to perform. The iPad does not have any impressive apps to DJ (at least not professionally), so I'd be VERY interested if they focused on the niche music market here. Surface 2 + Kinect/Leap + superb DJing app + Spotify-esque music supply = very happy musicians. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone is going to spend the time to develop a quality DJing app.

saturdaysaint 13y ago
There are plenty of quality DJing apps for PC - this seems like it would be more than adequate for Serrato/Traktor/etc.
sleepybrett 13y ago
It depends on what type of DJ you are I guess. Looking at your 'ultimate equation' it sounds like you might be a wedding DJ so Traktor isn't really your bag.
math0ne 13y ago
I'm pretty sure all the best dj apps are available for windows pc...
33degrees 13y ago
I have a friend who is a dj and has been struggling to get his music apps to work properly on his Surface; he ended up having to disable to a bunch of stuff to get it to work glitch free. So I would definitely wait to see how other people get on with the new models before jumping in. Also, Traktor DJ and a Kontrol S2 is definitely a pro level setup for iPad...
fumar 13y ago
You do not need an app, if you get Surface Pro 2. I have been running Ableton Live 9 on it. It runs without any problems, I usually hook it up to my APC 40 and microKorg. Fruity Loops is now available in the app store for both devices. http://apps.microsoft.com/windows/en-us/app/fl-studio-groove/45739f6c-beaf-4215-bf87-b64b6f8ad871 http://apps.microsoft.com/windows/en-us/app/fl-studio-groove...

bhauer 13y ago

As a Surface Pro owner [1], I like: * Surface 2 loses the low-density screen. I enjoy that low-density has been deprecated. * The names are right. Surface 2 and Surface Pro 2. No "Surface with Windows RT 8.1" nonsense. * Haswell, yes please. Longer battery life may assuage some popular criticism. * Backlit type cover. I hope this is compatible with my Surface Pro. * Two-position kick stand. I will be envious of this. * Surface 2 is smaller than Surface RT. * More memory in the Pro 2. * Docking station. Depending on the price of that and whether it's compatible with my Surface Pro, I may pick one up. However, I'd prefer to have an inductive charging plate as I have with my Nokia phone. I love the idea of just dropping wireless devices on a plate with no cables, no alignment, no fuss. I am disappointed by: * I personally would have preferred a Surface 2 Pro that leveraged Haswell to reduce the form factor to roughly the same as the original Surface RT. But I've never actually drained my Pro's battery, so I'd take lighter-weight versus increased battery lifespan. I'm usually near an AC outlet when I am out and about. * I would have liked a purely x86 lineup. Bay Trail Atom (or Haswell i3) on the low-end, Haswell i5 on the high-end. * Windows RT needs help. Remove its artificial limitations. Overall, I am fairly satisfied. I may want to replace my wife's netbook with a 2 Pro. [1] http://tiamat.tsotech.com/microsoft http://tiamat.tsotech.com/microsoft

dangrossman 13y ago
> I hope this is compatible with my Surface Pro Everything's compatible with the SP. Only the original Surface is missing the extra contacts on bottom for some of the new hardware. Myself, I'll be picking up the Power Cover when that shows up (I'm expecting 2014), but not replacing the tablet. 8ish hours of battery life is plenty for me. I'll save the big money for a real laptop when the rest of the PC makers finally put some Haswell-based stuff on store shelves this holiday season. That it's taken them over a year since the MBA is pathetic. The only thing that keeps me from using SP2 as a desktop replacement is the GPU. I still like to do some casual gaming every once in a while, and Intel's integrated graphics are too far behind nVidia/ATI's discrete offerings in other ultrabooks.
- LokiSnake 13y ago
  Any word on why it's taking manufacturers so long to get Haswell-based devices out?

untog 13y ago

The Surface Pro 2 could make for a really interesting developer machine. Plug it into external keyboard/monitor when you're at your desk, then just pick it up and take it on the road when you want to. I'm tempted, but part of me can't shake the idea that I'd be replacing my laptop with a tablet, even know I know that's not quite true. Also: Windows. I used to use it, but I've been working in OS X exclusively for a few years now, and going back to the Windows Command Prompt might kill me.

CodeCube 13y ago
powershell ... seriously, it's really good. And Cygwin if you really want that unix shell experience :)
- untog 13y ago
  I don't doubt that Powershell is good, but it's different. I've grown to appreciate being able to use all the same commands on my dev box as I do on my servers, and while Cygwin covers the basics, it doesn't do it all.
  - phaus 13y ago
    With newer versions of Windows, Microsoft has attempted to bring powershell on par with the linux terminal. Supposedly, every admin function possible in the OS is now capable of being performed in Powershell. The only downside is that some if the commands are uneccessarily verbose in comparison.
    - ihsw 13y ago
      Their push into headless Window Server deployment has certainly driven Microsoft to shore up PowerShell. Recently they're taking on declarative server configurations (ie: puppet) with their own brand of it -- Desired State Configuration. http://blogs.technet.com/b/privatecloud/archive/2013/08/30/introducing-powershell-desired-state-configuration-dsc.aspx http://blogs.technet.com/b/privatecloud/archive/2013/08/30/i...
  - deleted 13y ago

kijin 13y ago

The docking station looks fantastic. We've finally reached the day when we can plug in the tablet when we get home and instantly transform it into a full-blown desktop PC! Too bad the 512GB/8GB model will probably cost an arm and a leg, making it more economical for most people to simply buy two computers. But once the price comes down a bit, I can see this becoming a true drop-in replacement for the majority of Windows desktops and laptops out there.

jsz0 13y ago
The numbers still don't seem to add up though. For the same price you could get a (much) cheaper/lighter ARM tablet that gets much better battery life and a better desktop. I'm not sure what the point of convergence is here unless you have some specific need to run a legacy win32 app on a tablet.

enko 13y ago

Dear Microsoft: Out of ARM and x86, choose one. Just choose one. For the love of god, choose ONE. Can you imagine Apple, or anyone else, deliberately releasing two different tablets, with the same name, which can not run each others' software? It is inconceivable, and for good reason. MS cannot make decisions. That's what will kill them, long term. Just choose one!!

jfoutz 13y ago
Apple actually just made each executable have the binaries for both platforms. It's a good trick.
- duaneb 13y ago
  Regardless of engineering cleverness it's a very bad decision marketing wise.
- chrischen 13y ago
  Apple didn't release both simultaneously.
- koenigdavidmj 13y ago
  Even if you do that, you still can't run your desktop apps on the ARM model. I really don't want to explain to luddite relatives why they can't run a game unless they buy the more expensive model. Either ban desktop apps on both models, or neither.
  - jfoutz 13y ago
    Rosetta worked pretty well.
    - koenigdavidmj 13y ago
      I agree with you that this is technically a solved problem. It's not difficult to develop a system that lets apps run on both architectures without users having to think about this. I'm talking about the management decision that only Metro apps can run on RT, which is such a stupid limitation that even Microsoft sees the need to bypass it to get Office on an RT tablet.

wehadfun 13y ago

I think the problem with the last surface was price: $900 for a mediocre windows laptop with a touch screen or $300 for a mediocre windows laptop without a touchscreen.

eliben 13y ago

Those prices are... delusional.

nbevans 13y ago
Why? Did you even look at the specs? They are far in advance of the capabilities of an iPad. It's a full blown "PC as a Tablet". Even having a DisplayPort output and single USB port on a tablet device immediately makes it worth $200 more than any iPad.
- eliben 13y ago
  Because you can get a much more powerful laptop for much less, if you need a "real PC". If you need a tablet, you can get one for far less too. Heck, you can get a great laptop + a great tablet for less! This is a delusional move from a company that's so far behind in this area that it's no longer funny.
  - nbevans 13y ago
    You do realise there is a massively expanding market for tablets don't you? That tablet PC's are actively cannibalising the laptop market?
  - nivla 13y ago
    That is not a good comparison. That is like asking someone, why do they need a smart phone when they can get a regular phone + a netbook for half the price. Believe it or not there is a niche market for Tablet+PC forms. It was one of the main reason and the best decision I made when purchasing the Surface Pro. For travelling, I no longer need to carry my Laptop + Tablet. I just take the Surface Pro (It is setup to use my dev environments exactly as on the PC) and when I get back, I sync the changes to the laptop. Not only can I get real work done on the plane but can also switch to tablet mode and play some useless games when tired. However, that is my experience but your mileage may vary.
    - eliben 13y ago

methodin 13y ago

Does the Surface cut it as a machine for developers?

objclxt 13y ago
I hear great things about the Pro. You would definitely not want the RT/ARM models as a developer. Whether you want to spend $900+ on the Surface Pro to use a dev machine is another matter.
Livven 13y ago
Performance-wise the Pro is no different than the MBA or any other ultrabook, so it all comes down to the form factor. For portable (especially lap) use the combination of kickstand + type cover makes typing a bit more difficult than a normal laptop, but on a desk it works pretty well. There are two caveats though: the relatively small screen and fixed kickstand angles (now there are two different angles but obviously still not as flexible as a notebook). It only makes sense if you expect to use the tablet/touch features a lot, in addition to the traditional desktop. I plan on getting one mainly for the digitizer to take notes, so having a full portable computer is a nice bonus and justifies the price since I currently don't have a notebook.
barista 13y ago
the touch cover is not that great but the type cover is awesome for typing. Looks like the second version of it is backlit as well so it does make for a great dev PC
- nivla 13y ago
  I totally agree with you. The touch cover is useless. I haven't got a chance to try the type cover yet, but I assume it to much tolerable than the touch cover. The only complaint, it doesn't come in colors :(
binarycrusader 13y ago
Since they now offer double the memory and increased the storage options, yes!

Pxtl 13y ago

Big thing missing from the line-up: WinRT HDMI-stick. A Windows-powered answer to the MK808/Ouya/VitaStation and similar products, bundled with a nice wireless keyboard/mouse remote gizmo - something like this: http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/itemdetails/57Y6678/460/4C2830F486C64CF7A8A1E619AB6729AA http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/itemdetails/57Y6678/460/4C2830F... WinRT's consistent support for keyboard/mouse sets it apart from touch-oriented Android. Wireless handheld keyboard/mouse is hard to get right, but touchscreen without touching is harder. WinRT could be great on TVs. But MS would worry about cannibalizing their XBox sales.

sjmulder 13y ago
I tried using Windows 8 with a TV and it’s almost there but not quite – if they fix a few things it would be perfect: - At 720p you cannot run Windows Store apps (needs to be 768 minimum) - At 1080p much of the UI is too small. You can increase the font size but that’s not always enough. - Surprisingly, while keyboard navigation is great, it doesn't seem to support the Xbox 360 controller at all for navigating through the UI.
- barista 13y ago
  Actually if you are thinking of connecting your PC to your TV then Windows 7 is still the best bet. It's a well kept secret but a quiet PC connected to TV beats any other media solution out there hands down.
  - Pxtl 13y ago
    Yes, but that's an expensive option compared to ARM-based devices. I mean, you can get a pretty good Android-based ARM device with a spiffy remote for like $80. You'll be spending 5X that much for a decent X86+Windows solution. That's why WinRT opens up a new market for them. A WinRT device for light gaming, photos, video-chat, etc. for your TV would be nifty.
- joenathan 13y ago
  Your first two issues are addressed in Windows 8.1

__abc 13y ago

Who's the guying posing in the photo's? He looks miserable.

meepmorp 13y ago
Yeah, it's weird. Maybe it's just poor choice of photos by Ars, but the guy looks like a bored, minimum wage employee hawking those things at a mall kiosk.
- chatman 13y ago
  That is insulting. Perhaps you earn more than "minimum wage", but please be respectful to everyone. Everyone out there is doing a job and deserves respect, even if he's earning a minimum wage or if he's working at a mall kiosk.
  - meepmorp 13y ago
    Yeah, after I wrote it I thought it sounded a little obnoxious. Ah well. At least I got a nice lecture about respect.
rlu 13y ago
His name is Panos Panay and he's VP of Surface. I agree he isn't very photogenic but if you actually watch him present....it's a whole different story. You can probably find his part of the Surface 1 announcement on youtube and I'm sure the one today will be put up later.
- celerity 13y ago
  I came away from today's presentation thinking that he was an unusually bad presenter. IMHO he failed to explain why the Surface Pro 2 was better at the things he was claiming it was better at, didn't give concrete details on basic specifications (saying "25% better battery life" is useless unless you know what his supposed base is), and made too many lame jokes.

shurcooL 13y ago

Why is there a photo of an external monitor with 3840x2160 and nothing is mentioned about it? Is it because it's just a hypothetical display that could be connected via the Mini DisplayPort, had it existed?

daeken 13y ago
I was really hoping they'd announce that they are releasing such a display, to go along with the new Surfaces. I'd have bought one, along with a Surface Pro 2 and a docking station.
- shurcooL 13y ago
  That's what I assumed was happening when I first saw that photo, hence my disappointment.
akmiller 13y ago
Because it supports external displays up to 3840x2160. Edit: Sorry, misunderstood your question!
teamonkey 13y ago
3840x2160 is Ultra HD. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution#Monitors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution#Monitors
- felixfurtak 13y ago
  Strange nomenclature. I would have thought it should be called Quad-HD since it is precisely 4 x 1920x1080 screens.

codeulike 13y ago

As it happens I bought a second hand Surface Pro from ebay and it arrived today. Moving to it from a laptop thats a couple of years old, the Surface Pro is absolutely blowing me away. Faster than my old laptop, also acts as a tablet, using desktop applications via touch actually works, the pen is brilliant. The 128gb will be fine for me, because I've got used to living within about 120Gb.

JonFish85 13y ago
128GB minus whatever OS overhead there is... I know it's a nitpick, but definitely something to keep in mind.
- mcintyre1994 13y ago
  It's relatively significant for a nitpick, "The 128 GB version has approximately 85 GB free hard disk space." per http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-gb/support/storage-files-and-folders/surface-disk-space-faq http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-gb/support/storage-files... That's probably a combination of OS and the doublespeak/marketing definition of gigabyte though.
  - mahyarm 13y ago
    Just like the Macbook Air with it's 128GB SSD has a bunch of it taken up OS X when you get the device? I look at the surface pro as microsoft's macbook air equivalent.
    - steve-howard 13y ago
      I'd say the Ultrabook family is Microsoft's macbook air equivalent. I'm a big fan of the Samsung Series 9, and I don't think I could go back to a bulkier form factor for my next machine. Disclaimer: I work at Microsoft, not in anything related.
  - codeulike 13y ago
    Its actually 96GB free on the Surface Pro 128GB (source: http://www.zdnet.com/microsoft-officially-and-confusingly-discloses-surface-pro-storage-figures-7000011078/ http://www.zdnet.com/microsoft-officially-and-confusingly-di... ), and you can get it up to 104GB of free space by moving the recovery files (for if you need to reinstall the OS) off onto some other media. Of the 24GB still taken up, I gather some of that is because Office is pre-installed (but not activated) and presumably that can be removed too.

saturdaysaint 13y ago

I like the Pro, but the non-Pro Surface doesn't strike me as any more competitive than last year's model. It's heavier than it's main competitor with lower resolution and orders of magnitude fewer apps. And it does nothing to address the wave of great mini tablets. Maybe I'm alone here, but I don't want to hold anything heavier than a pound for more than a few minutes. Also, with iOS 7 rolling out, MS is going to have a lot harder time playing the "fresh new interface" card.

pjmlp 13y ago
Given that iOS 7 is a copy of what MS and Google were already offering on their systems, why not?
- saturdaysaint 13y ago
  Because there are already more people using iOS 7 every hour of their day than ever actually used Metro or any single variant of Android. Who was first is pretty irrelevant to average Joe/Jane picking their next phone.
  - pjmlp 13y ago
    Only in US, in the rest of the world it is a different story.
    - saturdaysaint 13y ago
      Metro isn't popular in any country that you could call a leading indicator of OS success, and there is no consistent Android UI to speak of anywhere.

danso 13y ago

> Another cover that's totally out of left field is the "Surface Music Kit," a Touch Cover with a mixing deck instead of a keyboard. All the new Touch Covers are pressure sensitive, so for the Music kit, the harder you hit the Touch Cover, the louder the sound plays. I'm not a music person but pressure-sensitive controls seems like the next frontier for touch devices (that, and Kinect-type cam interfaces)...I was going to say, "the iPad will likely fall behind here"...but it looks like third-party vendors are adding pressure-capability via Bluetooth: http://www.tuaw.com/2013/08/20/wacom-unveils-pressure-sensitive-intuos-creative-stylus-for-ipad/ http://www.tuaw.com/2013/08/20/wacom-unveils-pressure-sensit...

pearjuice 13y ago

It looks better than the original Surface, and seems to address the main issues. The better battery will be a huge advantage. Not a fan of the thinner keyboard though, the travel isn't too great anyway with the S Pro 1. Also, who the fuck cares about back-lighting?

pycassa 13y ago
some people do.. I can touch type, but sometimes when I need to press some key other than the alphabet I have to search for it.. back lit keyboards are very helpful when I'm trying to use my computer in the night without any lights. but I do hope there is a hotkey(function key) to turn off the back light when I'm watching a movie or something.
- pearjuice 13y ago
  Just take the keyboard of?
- dangrossman 13y ago
  The new keyboard covers have a proximity sensor. The backlight is only on when your hands are near it.

ChuckMcM 13y ago

Very nice. Pretty much everything I read was a net positive for the product, the only quibble might be the price but of all the things you can change in the future that is easiest to change :-). I was intrigued by the music keyboard, not because I think the Surface is the instrument of the future, but because I think there is a market for a device which can easily customize its input experience like that. I have thought for a while that future test equipment from Tektronix or Agilent might look like that but with a scope control panel and a dock for attaching probes. Like the 2 position kickstand, the one we got at work to do testing on that was annoying. I bet Surface 3 touts an infinitely adjustable one :-). I think the ARM/x86 messaging is pretty spot on as well, Microsoft is playing the "its just windows" card pretty hard and dropping the RT moniker was smart too. Most consumers could care less about instruction set architecture. And what happens when Apple makes an Air with the A7 ? Will Apple have the 2 x 2 matrix (iOS/MacOS)(ARM/x86)? and Microsoft the 1 x 2 matrix (Windows)(ARM/x86) ? I'd think the latter long term is easier to message and less confusing for customers. If they go all Ubuntu like and create a Win 8.1 phone experience then there product / os vector is 1x3 (Windows)(phone/tablet/laptop). That said, for me it reinforces the notion that this is the year of the Linux desktop. I recently had the experience of using a USB serial cable that worked under Linux but not under Windows 7. That was one of the signs for me that perhaps Windows was ceding the development workstation business (or at least not paying attention to it). That should be good news for folks like System76.

davidacoder 13y ago

Why, oh why is there no version with 3G/LTE? That is by far the biggest bummer, imho. For people that are on the road a lot that makes such a difference, and pretty much all other tablets offer that option, so it seems really lame to not have that. Also, if I spent $1800 for a Surface Pro in the best configuration, I really would expect it to have the same connectivity as a iPad mini... Other than that, this seems like the perfect device (the Pro version).

motdiem 13y ago
My guess is that"s why they're bundling a free 2yrs skype wifi with it - no 3G, but free access to many hotspots. Not sure it's a worthwile tradeoff for everyone though.
deleted 13y ago
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IanDrake 13y ago
1) The hardware would cost more 2) It would cost money to add the device to your Mobile account 3) You can just use the mobile hotspot feature on your phone and connect through that. Its easy on my Nokia 928. Hell, half the time I have my wife's iphone connected to my phone via WIFI because she has AT&T (for work reasons) and they suck most places we go.
- philliphaydon 13y ago
  I actually think 3g on tablets is rather silly now. With basically all mobile phones having the ability to share internet, why do you need to pay additional money for another mobile plan...
  - bcoates 13y ago
    Because I don't want to destroy my phone's battery and light my pants on fire.
    - 13y ago

phaus 13y ago

Still no keyboard that can be used without a table. Most people spend less than $700 on a laptop. Not many people are going to spend more than that on a device that was intentionally rendered less capable so Microsoft could sell gimicky keyboard covers. Microsoft knows how to make nice hardware. All they need to do is create a true hybrid device that sets the example for the industry.

nbevans 13y ago
On-screen keyboard for "not on a table" scenarios. Compromise? Yes. But acceptable compromise? Probably; how many people do "productive" input-oriented work that isn't on a table?
- phaus 13y ago
  I write essays for my classes and even code a little bit pretty much everywhere. In the car, lying in bed, on the sofa. The funny thing is, I did most of this on an iPad with a Clamcase Pro. If someone didn't want to do productive input-oriented work, why would they need a tablet with a Haswell processor?
  - mahyarm 13y ago
    Couldn't you get something like the clamcase pro then for the surface? This type of cover is for people who want something as minimal as an ipad smart cover.
    - phaus 13y ago
      No one has made one yet, because the Surface wasn't popular enough to make it profitable. Microsoft proved with the first generation that they have the chops required to make hardware that's just as nice as Apple's. Everyone praised the Surface's hardware, they just didn't like the battery life of the Ivy Bridge version nor Windows RT. Unfortunately, the inability of the Surface to be used as a laptop makes it a secondary device for most people. A $900 secondary device is going to be way too expensive for most people, who as I already said, pay less than $700 for their primary devices. 1st party devices are almost universally better than third-party devices. For example, while I loved my Clamcase Pro, I bet it wouldn't have died after less than a year if it had been made by Apple. That's why I was hoping that Microsoft would see the potential in making a proper keyboard for the Surface 2. The closest thing we have right now is the Lenovo Helix. It's a nice device, but it was launched with Ivy Bridge right around the time Haswell was released, and it costs a fortune when compared to the surface or a Macbook Air.

th0ma5 13y ago

Can one get Debian, SUSE, or CentOS running on either of these yet?

lallysingh 13y ago
My question exactly. Ubuntu and KDE are supposed to have nice tablet features. Running either one of them, emacs, and git are my version of Office.
nivla 13y ago
Cross-posting from one of my comments above: I know you can on the Surface Pro 1. So I don't see why you won't be able to on the Surface Pro 2. Its an x86 machine as per their own requirement, bios have to be unlocked and the ability to disable secure boot must be present.

bcoates 13y ago

How much of the battery life on a tablet is RAM? I moved down from 8GB to 4 when I switched from a big laptop to surface, and the only performance difference I noticed was substantially improved hibernate times. I'd hate to get a bunch of battery life back from Haswell just to burn it all on RAM I don't even want to get the 512GB model.

shanselman 13y ago

I'm surprised they didn't stress Windows 8.1 more. I have an original Surface RT ("O.G.") and it was essentially unused in my house until I got Windows 8.1 on it...changed everything. It's a much more usable OS.

Mikeb85 13y ago

Microsoft should never have released Windows RT. The one reason, and the one biggest reason that people use Windows is backwards compatibility... By breaking that, they essentially undermined their own monopoly power, and now everyone is developing to be platform-agnostic. And let's face it - no one has actually liked MS products in a decade, they've simply put up with them. Now that people aren't forced to use MS products, they don't. It doesn't matter whether or not the Surface 2 is any good, MS killed the only thing going for them...

josefresco 13y ago
"And let's face it - no one has actually liked MS products in a decade, they've simply put up with them." Windows 7 was widely praised, Xbox 360 is the winning console, Kinect was revolutionary and widely praised, and of course MS Office is still the premier office suite (I would argue that people "put up with" the alternatives).
- Mikeb85 13y ago
  And yet Apple is the platform making gains (with OSX), especially in people's homes - and has been for the better part of a decade. I don't know when you last walked through a University, but Macbooks make up the majority of laptops students are using. What people 'want' isn't a Windows PC (as their sales are showing - especially in higher price points). You're right about the consoles (except the kinect, I don't know a single person who owns it) however, but the console crowd are a fickle bunch, and the way things are shaping up, the PS4 could be the winner this time round...

martin1b 13y ago

Surface RT owner here (freebie). LOVE the interface. Love the hardware (nice solid feel and excellent touch recognition). Wish kickstand would have 2 positions.. It's slower than a pro but I can deal with that. Crappy cameras, but not a show stopper. My main beef why I can't recommend it is compatibility. If that was addressed, the number of apps would skyrocket and I'd be a huge fan. You would think since MSFT is late to this market, putting in a low-medium cost, highly functional tablet to reverse the trend to apple and google would allow them to catch up quickly. The pro price is currently on par to an Ipad. Hopefully CEO #3 will do that.

Yuioup 13y ago

Fail 2 and Fail Pro 2

camus 13y ago
Yeah, yet Microsoft still believes in that failure. They dont get that nobody want their Microsoft stuffs, they should stick to software. Nobody trust Microsoft anymore. Especially businnesses after X license audits ... I'm glad people understand how dangerous this company really is. They definetly lost the cellphone/tablet battle.

abuzzooz 13y ago

Microsoft sticking to Tegra is an interesting choice. I'm not saying it's bad, but still interesting given the current dynamics of the mobile market. Now that they have Nokia, I predict that Microsoft will attempt to acquire NVIDIA in order to mimic Apple's and Samsung's vertical strategies. Not sure Jen-Hsun or the board would agree though.

garg 13y ago

This seems like a good alternative to the new Wacom Cintiq Companion ($2000) geared towards digital artists.

moron4hire 13y ago

There are some problems with comparing a Windows Surface Pro tablet to an iPad. The availability of programs is such that you're not going to use the iPad for content creation, and you're probably not going to use the Surface for gaming. The Surface is not a pick-up-and-go sort of device. It's a laptop with a mutli-touch display. I'm building a program right now for Windows 8, on Dell hardware[1]. I've gotten quite used to the OS by now, and as long as you have a touch display, it doesn't really deserve the criticism I've read. I remember hearing the same thing about Windows XP and Windows Vista and Windows 7. The thing that I like the most about using Windows 8 is that all of my software just, like, works. A little bit of that is luck: if I had written any programs that had heavy use of keyboard shortcuts, it wouldn't work without a blutooth keyboard. If I had written any programs that expected the screen to never resize, that too would break. But those are pretty bad programming habits to begin with. My programs don't look great, but that is a temporary problem. And I can program for it with the same tools that I'm using for Windows 7 (hell, I can program on it). I don't have to wait for someone to make a something-to-something-else translator to use my favorite language to write programs like I do on iOS or Android. I don't have to wait for someone to make a decent text editor on iOS or Android. I don't have to wait for someone to write decent source control software for iOS or Android. I have it all, already. I can do whatever I want. Hell, if I want to install Linux on the thing, I could. Of course, it's probably not going to play nicely with the touch screen, but that is a different issue. The Surface Pro is just a PC. [1] The Dell hardware isn't great, but it has a regular, ol', USB port on it, which makes it amazing. I've played with the Surface Pro at a Staples and found it to be better than this Dell device in every way.

MBCook 13y ago
It's quite clear that the Surface (formerly RT) was designed to compete with the iPad, and the Surface Pro (formerly just Surface) was designed to be a hybrid/laptop replacement. Unfortunately, Microsoft managed to make both products look nearly identical and use the same name for both. The little I heard about the Surface was from people who bought an RT thinking it was a normal Windows computer and returned it. I'm glad they're working to clear up the confusion with better naming and a slightly different look.

ChikkaChiChi 13y ago

Windows CE, Windows Mobile, Windows Surface RT v1. I've given MS plenty of chances. I think it's time I moved on.

SimonPStevens 13y ago

There is a simple change Microsoft need to make to the Surface RT to make it viable. Fix app compatibility. Start by removing the artificial restriction on desktop apps. Currently desktop apps are restricted to those signed by Microsoft. If they were to remove this restriction there's a whole load of apps that could be recompiled to target ARM and work on the RT desktop. Companies and open source devs would be far more willing to spend a small amount of time porting existing code bases to ARM than re-writing whole apps for 'Metro style'. On top of that, Microsoft already have a platform compatibility layer in .Net. And they clearly already have a ARM version of the .Net runtime as you can build Metro apps targeting .Net. It seems absolutely crazy that they don't make use of this already existing compatibility layer that could allow all existing .Net apps to run on RT desktop without change. This would make the surface RT a far more interesting proposition for companies looking to deploy their internal homegrown enterprise apps to windows tablets. This change would re-position the RT from it's current state as a underwhelming curiosity who's main competitor is IPads and Android tablets which have a wider range of apps (and are significantly cheaper in the case of some Android brands) to a true low-mid end laptop alternative with decent app support at a similar price point. The Surface pro stays as it is as a high end laptop alternative.

edandersen 13y ago
Windows RT already has a full version of the .NET 4.5 Runtime for ARM. If you disable the Microsoft signature check, existing .NET apps do just run. A wasted opportunity - they don't want competition for their new App Store.. I wouldn't be surprised if RT was actually sold at a loss hoping to make up sales via apps like Xbox or razor blades.
- SimonPStevens 13y ago
  "A wasted opportunity" - completely. I wasn't actually aware there was already a full ARM .net runtime, that just makes it even more stupid. Remove that signature check and I would probably have brought an RT for every member of my family, confident that the apps would appear fairly quickly as they got ported to ARM. As it is the RT is irrelevant with little prospect of the number of useful apps increasing, and the pro is too pricey to justify. I keep considering it, but always end up sticking with a laptop at half the price. I say all this as a Microsoft fan in the main. The surface concept is so close to my ideal device. It's so so close to being exactly what I've been waiting for, but yet somehow manages to entirely miss the mark just through the presences of a little software lock.

quizzas 13y ago

No LTE means no enterprise clients like me.